From PR to Photography: Enzo Dal Verme's Inspiring Career Through the Lens

What if the photographers you once directed suddenly told you to pick up a camera yourself? Join us as we chat with Enzo Dal Verme, the acclaimed fashion photographer who did exactly that! From his beginnings running a PR agency to becoming a celebrated photographer for magazines like Vanity Fair and The Times, Dal Verme takes us behind the scenes of his incredible career. Discover how his unorthodox presentation style and sheer enthusiasm helped him break through the toughest post-9/11 industry challenges, launching a globetrotting career filled with captivating stories and jaw-dropping images.

Dal Verme shares his journey from being a reluctant social media user to finding unexpected success on platforms like Instagram, reshaping his storytelling methods along the way. We explore the intricate balancing act between meticulously planned fashion shoots and the spontaneous intimacy of portrait photography. Dal Verme also opens up about his passion for teaching, offering transformative workshops in serene Tuscany settings where meditation meets the art of capturing emotion. 

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Chapters

• 0:02 Photography Journey and Industry Changes
• 8:17 Portrait Photography Process and Storytelling
• 10:40 [Ad] World of Work Experts on the People and Performance Podcast
• 11:23 (Cont.) Portrait Photography Process and Storytelling
• 23:34 Teaching Workshops & Photography Retreats

Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, gary] Peugeot. The Dead Pixel Society podcast is brought to you by MediaClip, advertag Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, gar Peugeot. Today, we're joined by Enzo Del Verme, who is coming to us from Italy. Enzo is a fashion photographer and photography destination leader and just all around exciting person. So, hi, nzo, how are you today?

Enzo Dal Verme: 0:38

Hey, ary, thank you for inviting me.

Gary Pageau: 0:41

So, nzo, let's talk a little bit about your, your journey into photography. You know, I talked to a lot of people who build photography as a career and they don't always intend it to be like they. They started showing pictures because they loved it and then they found out that they could, they could become a career, so so so what's your journey in getting into photography that led you to become a photographer, you know, for vanity fair and the times and l and beyond right, um, I used to own a pr agency, a pr firm, and I used to work with photographers directing them.

Enzo Dal Verme: 1:16

So maybe we had to do a campaign and I had to choose, select a photographer and decide together how the picture had to be, and organize everything. And then, curiously enough well, something that today would never happen, but curiously enough, some of the photographers I used to work with encouraged me to take a camera and photograph. And I said yes, because actually I used to photograph in the past, but I never thought this to become a profession. Actually, I photographed to photograph in the past, but I never thought this to become a profession. Actually, I photographed as a personal pleasure. Yeah, my first job was a campaign. Actually, which is amazing, not again Now. This was a few years ago. Yeah, quite some time ago, quite some time.

Enzo Dal Verme: 1:57

Then my agency was giving me a lot of work, but at a certain point in my career, everything changed in the world. You know, remember september 11th, sure? Well then it's when all the companies and the firm, the brands, were starting freaking out and saying what are we going to do next? And they froze all their investments. They started stopping spending so much money in promotion. And that's the moment when I said, well, maybe it's time to change, maybe I have to do something different now. And so I said to myself so what is the one thing that I might enjoy to do now instead of doing VR? Well, I really loved that, but it became the reason why I stopped, that it wasn't enjoyable anymore, it was too stressful.

Enzo Dal Verme: 2:53

So then I had a few pictures and I introduced myself to a few magazines and I had the contacts because they knew me. But the first attempt was not very good, because they knew me as a PR person, right, and they said you're a PR, you're not a photographer, you know, what do you want from us? Yeah, so it was a total failure. And then I said, okay, then I have to contact people. I don't know people that don't know me, right, and then it was a big success actually. And I think, know me right. And then what? It was a big success actually because, um, and I think the success was, I mean, something weird happened because I I was introducing myself in a very unprofessional way. I mean, I went to these appointments with a lot of enthusiasts, but a few pictures. I didn't even have a proper portfolio and you know, in milan you have fantastic photographers from all over the world and I was arriving there to my appointments with a few pictures and saying, hey, and I would like to do this and this and this and this, and I think that my being so, you know, funny, in a way it was my, my luck, because they must have thought they might thought this guy is really crazy. Let's give him an opportunity and see what he's able to do. So they gave me a few opportunities and immediately they liked what I did and immediately I started having a lot of work and it has been an amazing period because right from the beginning I started traveling all over the world and taking pictures of amazing people.

Enzo Dal Verme: 4:31

I had moments in my career when I would publish like three or four stories every week, every week, which is a lot, you know, and I would do like, uh, portraits, fashion and you live with the beauty travel. You know, the thing that I did the most were stories around the world. You know I would go to kabocha, south africa, brazil, find an interesting story, uh, meet the people, interview them, take portraits of them, take portraits of the photographic situation and then make a story. That has been fantastic because I'm a very curious person and every time I was finding a story I got inspired and it was very nice. It was very nice feeling to inspire the readers because I will share this with a lot of, with a big audience, and so inspiration is a part of my journey with photography.

Enzo Dal Verme: 5:36

And and then, you know, they started asking me if I would do fashion things. And then I've been working a lot with the magazines things, and then I've been working a lot with the magazines. Uh, now magazines are closing down. You know I'm basically I'm an editorial, editorial photographer, so I had to change and adapt. You know what darwin charles darwin said about the survival of species that you know is not the strongest or the most intelligent species that is surviving, but is the one that is more able to adapt to a changing environment. I think Charles Darwin was thinking about photographers.

Gary Pageau: 6:14

You think he was secretly. Well, I think he did have a camera in the Archipelago, yeah, how he pronounced that. So I think he was, I think he probably you might be right on that. So I just want to go back one little bit to the business you said, because I thought that was kind of interesting how? Because a lot of people, when they're just starting out, they want to use their contacts, they want to use the people they already know to advance their business. And that didn't work for you.

Gary Pageau: 6:41

Because you were in a different context, right, because you were in a different context, right. So that's kind of interesting because you're coming from a PR editorial format to a photography journalism format. Why do you think that is and do you think that's changing now?

Enzo Dal Verme: 7:00

Oh, absolutely, yes, I mean now magazines are shrinking or closing down and the attention of the public is totally on the internet, so the way the editorial teams are working is completely different. No, recently I published on a story on l that I showed in india, and I had to publish another one like in the next month. And, uh, it's amazing how and I'm dealing with people I've been working in the past, yeah, and talking we see, it's amazing how things have changed, shifted. You know well, one thing very important is that I am paid a lot less than they used to be paid, which is not very nice. But also the way you do things like magazines used to be very thick and so you need to produce a lot of images and big stories, and now there's always like a problem like, oh no, this is too long, this is too long, this is too long. So it's a bit disappointing, but you know, the world is changing and we photographers, we need to change and do things in a different way.

Gary Pageau: 8:15

Yeah, because I think that's interesting. How you know. I think in some ways, you know, just in Western culture we're far more image conscious than ever before. Just in Western culture we're far more image conscious than ever before. But the mediums for delivering images, primarily magazines and newspapers, have been cannibalized by social media and everything else. Are you doing anything specific for maybe someone's social media campaign? That's maybe not part of their magazine, but it's a different format? How have you adapted to the different formats?

Enzo Dal Verme: 8:46

yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been asked to to work for social media and and certain things. No, I really don't like to do that and I say no. Other things like I've been doing, like fashion catalogs, mainly for the net, for big, big firms and and also things for social media. But when I do something that I really don't like, okay, it's work, but in the same time, I prefer to change. And about social media, I want to say something very funny.

Enzo Dal Verme: 9:20

I had my instagram account opened by someone that used to work with me at the very beginning. Like when was that? 11, 12 years ago, no more than that and I never, ever, used it. Actually, you know, I was like, no, I don't want to put my pictures on Instagram. And then people kept saying, but, enzo, you're a photographer, you know you need to be on Instagram. And I was like, no, I don't like it. And recently I said, okay, it's time to do it. And, like a month ago, and maybe a month and a half a month ago, I think, I started posting my pictures on Instagram and I don't have a, you know, a huge amount of followers, but it's interesting because what I do is I publish my pictures and the story of that picture and I mix current pictures with pictures that are pretty old.

Enzo Dal Verme: 10:10

I'm enjoying it, I have to say, and the funny thing is that I have people writing me in private emails saying, oh, I read this story, da, da, da, da, da, and I don't know why. You know, I don't know why this is happening because it's like it seems like I'm touching a different kind of audience, not just the people that are like scrolling quick and putting hearts and saying, oh, this is wonderful, and then going on, and I quite like that. I like that to say so.

Gary Pageau: 11:14

Do you think your background in PR, which again is telling a story, right, you think your background in pr, which again is telling a story, right, you're, you're, you're, I mean you're, you're telling a story in a certain frame to put something in a certain context. But do you think that helped your photography outlook and kind of knowing to do that, because I think a lot of photographers want to rely solely on an and again. An image, you know, has a thousand words, right, pictures are worth a thousand words, right, but there's still some context and things that you can add to that, that can tell, that can prove telling the story. Do you think your background in pr helped you with that transformation?

Enzo Dal Verme: 11:49

yeah, not only that, everything else like would have. All my experiences uh have been contributing to the way I work, and also working with lots of photographers helped me a lot because I could see the different ways, different approaches different photographers have, and that's very, very interesting. Some photographers are very uh accurate and and precise, others like to improvise, and I'm like in the middle.

Gary Pageau: 12:18

I would say say so, let's talk about your work process. You know how. You know your steps to go through. Let's say you're doing a. You've been hired by someone to do a fashion shoot. What are some of the processes that you may go through to make the subject feel more comfortable and to get the work for the client that you're trying to produce, is it I mean when you said you're a mix of how that works, right? So tell me a little bit about that process.

Enzo Dal Verme: 12:54

Yeah Well, when I photograph fashion, of course, everything needs to be planned in advance, because you need to respect the style, the guideline of the client and the style that we need. You know the outcome needs to to be in a certain way. When I shoot, uh, portraits, then it's different, because with portraiture I need to show something of the depth of the person, while with fashion I have to to build an image of something that doesn't really exist. I have to build something like a dream. I have to find the right model, hairdresser and makeup artist and stylist and lights.

Gary Pageau: 13:30

It's very collaborative right. It's very collaborative?

Enzo Dal Verme: 13:33

Yeah, absolutely, but what happens is you're not really taking a picture of reality. You are building something. You're building something that is in your mind and you make it happen, but when you take portraits, it's the opposite. Actually, because you need to connect with that person and try to say something about that person, but actually you need to do a lot more than that, because you have to make sure the image is balanced. You need to check the background maybe there is a little thing in the background that you want to avoid. You need to check the light if you should be natural light or or not.

Enzo Dal Verme: 14:11

Uh, you need to check the clothes of the person, because normally you don't have a stylist when you, when you do a portrait or sometimes you do uh, you need to make sure the colors and the shapes of the pictures are okay. You need to check the hair of the person. You need to check so many things, and the most important thing is that you need to have enough attention left to connect with the person, because otherwise you take a picture of the shape of the person but not really of something more intimate, which is the most interesting thing. You know, when you look at a portrait, if you see like a beautiful smile, yeah, it's okay. But if you see something that is inviting you to stay there and to say, oh, maybe I've been, I, I know this mood, I've been there. Or maybe the opposite, maybe I haven't, I've never been there, and so how, how interesting.

Enzo Dal Verme: 15:12

But what I want to say is that when you shoot a portrait, you have so many things that are competing for your attention. Right, you need to check everything and, and you have, you need to have enough attention to, to connect with the, with your, with the subject. I would say that you need to be aware of everything without getting lost in anything. Right, and what I mean is like you need to be aware of all the details, everything. But if you get lost in one detail because it's not working, because it's, you know, for some reason it is not okay, then you miss the most important thing, which is being able to multitask, to see everything at once.

Gary Pageau: 15:54

So when you're connecting with a subject for a portrait specifically, are there times where they're just not cooperating. Oh, yes. So tell me a little bit about that process, because you're trying to connect on another level rather than just the physical representation. Sometimes people are reluctant to do that.

Enzo Dal Verme: 16:17

Yeah, and the reasons can be many. You know you can have people that are difficult because they feel insecure and they tell you you know you need to photograph me this way, or this is my good side, right, or something like that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Enzo Dal Verme: 16:34

It's very important to put your attention and to sense into that person and to see how is this person feeling and what can I do to make this person feeling more comfortable. So be open and listen to what's going on, because it's very easy to be reactive. You know, if someone is being difficult and saying you need to photograph me, this way I can react and say hey, hey, wait a minute, I am the photographer and I'm telling you how you need to behave. So if I react this way, the relation is going to be a mess. But instead of reacting, I can respond. And in order to respond, I need to be open, listen and say, ah, recognize that maybe this person needs more attention, maybe this person needs to be reassured. I can say something or do something that, in a way, is making this person feel more comfortable, and so then things can go smooth. And it's amazing how, like a very little thing can make a huge difference on the set, on the set.

Gary Pageau: 17:41

Yeah, cause I mean that's gotta be a you know kind of fatiguing for you. Actually, I would think just all the amount of tension, I mean attention, that goes into that, right, cause you've got you're like doing mental work to make your subject feel. Plus, you also have to think about everything else. So how long does a typical portrait session last in your studio? It?

Enzo Dal Verme: 18:03

depends, because normally if it's too long people get tired, so it can't be longer than two hours, but sometimes it takes like 10 minutes, if things are really clear. And also it depends on who am I photographing and how much time this person has and what are the limits that I have, because sometimes you're photographing a celebrity and they say you know, I have five minutes for you and in those five minutes they're also being difficult, so you know you need to be able to take a good picture anyhow.

Gary Pageau: 18:37

Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things. I've talked to some celebrity photographers in the past. They always show me like an iconic photo of this musical artist or this actor, and it's like they said yeah, I had four minutes to take that Because they're on a press tour and they're just stopping in and going out somewhere else. So that's a little different, though. I mean, that's celebrity photography, I imagine, is just a whole different can of worms from a logistical and artistic standpoint right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Enzo Dal Verme: 19:07

Well, there's one thing that I wanted to add to what I said before is that when you're photographing someone, you need to put your attention on that person, but you need to put your attention on yourself as well, right, and? And try to sense into yourself and say how do I feel Happy? Do I feel? How come I'm feeling a bit nervous? And then, in a way, you, you need to inquire into yourself and see, you know how am I doing?

Enzo Dal Verme: 19:35

And and because sometimes the funniest things that that are happening, like you're photographing someone and you don't know why, but you don't really like this person, and then, uh, maybe you, at a certain point, you go like, oh god, you know, this person is wearing the same shoes, shoe of my, uh neighbor, and my neighbor has the same shoes and and is really not a nice person. So I make an association, right, and? And because I see the same shoes, then I I tend to uh, relate to this person in the same way I relate to my neighbor, so I'm inventing my neighbor's nice yeah, I know, but but you're making sort of an unconscious association to someone you have to be aware you're doing that Now.

Gary Pageau: 20:21

so one of the things that you do is actually practice meditation. Does meditation help with that? Do you meditate before a session or do you just have?

Enzo Dal Verme: 20:36

that sort of mindset as you go in, that you're going to be more present. Yeah Well, sometimes I meditate before the session, but not always. I've been meditating for a long time now. It's probably 35 or 36 years that I meditate. It's a practice that I do it for myself, because I like it. It's really good to have a tool that is helping you to calm down your mind and be much more present. I find out that this has been helping me a lot with my photography, because when you have a calmer mind, it's easier to respond to a situation instead than react to a situation, for instance, and it's easier to multitask. It's easier to manage your attention. And also I have to say you know what I said to you that it's important to to be aware of everything without getting lost in anything when you meditate. I don't know, do you? Do you ever meditate? Do you have any?

Gary Pageau: 21:28

experience with that, I wouldn't say I'm a regular practitioner. Always put it that way okay.

Enzo Dal Verme: 21:32

So let's, let's make a little, a little introduction to this. So, when you meditate, what you need to do is basically to calm your mind, because, let's say, you close your eyes and then you start thinking did they close the window? Or, oh, tomorrow I have to remember to do this phone call oh my God, I didn't answer that email, or things like that. So there are lots of things that are coming in your mind and you need to start being able not to follow them. You know, like, you are aware of them, see, oh, okay, I'm thinking, I'm, I'm worried about the window, okay, and you let it go. And then you have another thought is coming. You look at it and say, oh, okay, how many? Because anytime you follow a thought, then you get lost in it. You know, like, if they all tomorrow have to do the phone call, yes, in fact, that person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you get lost and you lose your concentration.

Enzo Dal Verme: 22:30

While in meditation, basically, what you do is like, whatever is the right arising, you let it go, you just step back. You step back, it's there, but you step back. Right, something is rising. And then you step back. You step back, it's there but you step back right, something is rising. And then you step back and then the same thing. You do it when you photograph because, like, you're very worried about the background and you might get lost in that. But you need to learn how to say, okay, I have to take care of the background and I step back. Okay, I also have to take care about this and this and this, and I need to keep a connection with my. I can say that meditation has been helping me a lot in in being able to handle difficult situations, stressful situation, difficult situations and and multitask and and, of course, it's not always working. I do disasters as well as everyone else, but you know that I can say it's a big help.

Gary Pageau: 23:25

One of the things you do is you teach, and you do workshops and things. You work with retailers. How did you get into that as an adjunct activity to your portraiture, because you also include meditation as part of that teaching process too. It's all kind of coming together so yeah.

Enzo Dal Verme: 23:45

So how did that happen? When meditation, I started more recently to include that because it was more like a practice that I didn't want to share, I wanted to keep it for myself, and and, and then I said, no, no, wait, this is so precious, it's good if I start sharing and and it's very appreciated actually, the way I do it. Um, I started teaching photography like I think, 13 years ago, 14 years ago, something like that, and it's amazing how, you know, I had this idea like, oh, I should teach something, why not? Yeah, and I, for some reason, in a very short time, I I was able to put together a, a structure of, of a workshop, and that was really very well balanced. And, um, I still teach more or less the same things.

Enzo Dal Verme: 24:35

So at the beginning I had well, in that moment I was publishing a lot, I was always traveling and I was very, very much on magazines, so I very often had like a waiting list. I had a lot of students at one. I would teach like four or five times in here, maybe more mainly in Italy. I've been invited a couple of times abroad, but mainly I teach in here. Then now every photographer wants to teach, so things slow down a little bit right there's sort of a cottage industry of the workshop.

Enzo Dal Verme: 25:12

Photographer yeah, absolutely. So. I'm teaching a little bit less because what I do is so weird in a way, let's say, unique. I'm still doing something that is attracting quite a lot of people because I I don't do anything that is technical. I don't teach like how to use your camera or how to take that perfect shot, but what I do is I do an exploration about how the photographer is dealing with the subject, the interaction, the relation, and what you do when you're too nervous, what you do when you are feeling insecure, what you do when you have no time, what you do when you are under stress and all that.

Enzo Dal Verme: 25:57

And yeah, it's very appreciated. I have lots of very happy students and I really enjoy that. And it's amazing how, at the beginning, I was like, yeah, I could try teaching, why not? And now it's really. I'm really proud of that, I have to say, because I receive sometimes emails from people that studied with me a year ago, two years ago, 10 years ago, and they are sharing with me how important it was their experience with me. So I know that I'm doing something useful and that's very fulfilling. I mean, it's really fulfilling to publish something on a magazine that is reaching a lot of you know a very big audience, but it's also very fulfilling to meet with a small group of people and know that somehow you are making something that they will love. Why did you?

Gary Pageau: 26:48

choose to focus on the inner workings, I guess, of the portraiture photography experience, as opposed to, you know, kind of the routine f-stop exposure triangle, you know lighting mode. Is it because that's where you found your success and your fulfillment? Or because I think it would have been the easy way to say, to kind of promote your workshops? As you know, enzo, the famous fashion photographer, will teach you his best. You know tips and tricks, and it would be right it would. That would have been the easy way. Actually, I think the way you're doing it, the way you do it, is a little more intense, true true, I think I choose.

Enzo Dal Verme: 27:31

I choose this path because, um, it's something that I can do, I enjoy doing, and I don't know anyone else that is doing that, so someone has to do it. There you go.

Gary Pageau: 27:44

That's great. So are they mostly around Tuscany, or where have you gone with your retreats?

Enzo Dal Verme: 27:51

Yeah, I've been going here and there. Sometimes they invite me and I go, but I organize on my own this retreat in Tuscany and the place is fabulous. It's this beautiful historical residence and with a huge Park and we are there five days. Um, yeah, it's amazing. I really love it. I still love it. Can you believe it? I mean, every time I'm so excited and so happy, even after so many years.

Gary Pageau: 28:20

It's amazing well, that well, I mean because it sounds to me like you're getting a lot of feedback and fulfillment from your students, right? I mean, that's really why people enjoy teaching is because they do get feedback and response from the people, right? If you're just doing it on youtube, you know, even though you're looking at comments, it's not the same thing, right?

Enzo Dal Verme: 28:40

I don't know, I don't know, uh, I mean, I'm not really doing it for having like the mirroring of the of the comments there is. I want to tell you something, gary, that is very weird and I haven't understood yet. It's like whenever I teach, sometimes I have students that I would never feel uh, attracted, relate with, you know, maybe someone that you meet in a train, on a plane, and you don't even feel like talking to this person, but then when we are there, they are giving me their trust and so I feel sort of like I need to give something to those people and then so far it's always been really good and we always had very good relations. I feel happy to see them transforming, because very often they arrive a bit tense and then they go away the last day with a big smile in their heart and then everyone is friend and it's very nice it's.

Gary Pageau: 29:39

You know, I'm a bit of an idealist, so I enjoy these little things, yeah so where can people go for more information about your workshops and yours and your seminars and your teachings? Okay, talk a little bit about you. Know how often you do them and where they can go for more information yeah, okay, then I don't do them very often.

Enzo Dal Verme: 30:04

Now I do that Then like once or twice a year. I have a website just for that. It's called photography dash retreats photography retreatscom. By the way there. There you can also download for free a photography, a portrait photography guide that I really enjoy putting together, and also you can follow me on Instagram and so they'll better me. It's. It's as I said, it's a new thing, so I I'm not so social at the end and I also have a yeah, there is also an Instagram for for the photography retreat things anyway.

Enzo Dal Verme: 30:39

Anyway, you know you will find a way to contact me in a way or another, but the website is the best way to find information about the retreats.

Gary Pageau: 30:50

Awesome. Well, thank you, enzo, it's been wonderful talking to you. I've learned a bit myself about maybe I need to meditate more Well come over, come in Tuscany. Sounds like a wonderful place, I will be happy to do so uh, thank you, enzo, great to meet you and have a great day.

Erin Manning: 31:08

Thank you so much thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast.