A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Mixing a cocktail of philosophy, theology, and spirituality.
We're a pastor and a philosopher who have discovered that sometimes pastors need philosophy, and sometimes philosophers need pastors. We tackle topics and interview guests that straddle the divide between our interests.
Who we are:
Randy Knie (Co-Host) - Randy is the founding and Lead Pastor of Brew City Church in Milwaukee, WI. Randy loves his family, the Church, cooking, and the sound of his own voice. He drinks boring pilsners.
Kyle Whitaker (Co-Host) - Kyle is a philosophy PhD and an expert in disagreement and philosophy of religion. Kyle loves his wife, sarcasm, kindness, and making fun of pop psychology. He drinks childish slushy beers.
Elliot Lund (Producer) - Elliot is a recovering fundamentalist. His favorite people are his wife and three boys, and his favorite things are computers and hamburgers. Elliot loves mixing with a variety of ingredients, including rye, compression, EQ, and bitters.
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
The B-I-B-L-E, Part II
Ever had an issue with violence in the Bible? How about the many inconsistencies in the Scriptures? What about the rampant patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny? There are all sorts of issues and problems within Christianity's sacred text, but does that mean that we have to choose between believing that everything is prescriptive and inspired or walking away from the Bible altogether? In this episode, we offer a different, more nuanced way of approaching and engaging with the Bible.
In a portion of the episode that got edited out, Kyle and Randy give some recommended reading for those wanting to go deeper. Here are the books they recommend:
Kyle:
- How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth - Gordon Fee & Douglas Stuart
- Whose Community, Which Interpretation? - Merold Westphal
- Womanist Midrash - Wilda Gafney
Randy:
- The New Testament in Its World - NT Wright
- Paul: A Biography - NT Wright
- The For Everyone series - NT Wright
- The Bible Tells Me So - Peter Enns
- How the Bible Actually Works - Peter Enns
- An Introduction to the Old Testament - Walter Brueggemann & Tod Linafelt
- The Prophetic Imagination - Walter Brueggemann
- The Prophets - Abraham Joshua Heschel
The beverage featured in this episode is Wollersheim's Press House Brandy.
Catch Part 1 here.
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Cheers!
welcome to a pastor and philosopher walk
00:16
into a bar
00:16
the podcast where we mix a sometimes
00:18
weird but always delicious cocktail of
00:21
theology
00:21
philosophy and spirituality
00:28
on this episode we are continuing our
00:30
discussion of the bible
00:32
we're calling this one the bible part
00:35
two
00:35
so on the last episode if you didn't
00:38
catch it we talked about what the bible
00:40
is
00:40
what the bible isn't what biblical
00:42
authority is what inspiration is
00:44
inherency infallibility all that good
00:46
stuff
00:47
so if you're interested in that i would
00:49
recommend listening to
00:50
the previous episode prior to diving
00:52
into this one but what we're going to
00:54
talk about here can easily stand alone
00:55
as well
00:56
so stay tuned we've got some
00:58
controversial stuff coming up we're
00:59
going to talk about
01:00
violence in the bible we're going to
01:02
talk about misogyny
01:03
in the bible we're going to talk about
01:05
what hermeneutics means all sorts of fun
01:07
stuff
01:08
juicy speaking of juicy we're drinking
01:14
a grape randy's wearing his juicy pants
01:17
oh boy and he can't deny it because you
01:20
can't see him
01:22
i can deny kyle i'm sure there's some
01:24
philosophical take on how i can deny it
01:26
yeah but it's my word against yours
01:28
well and elliot there really is no
01:30
authority they'll agree with me
01:33
all right i'm wearing juicy pants fun
01:34
next week will be hammer pants
01:37
for those of you old enough to remember
01:39
hammer pants
01:41
like m.c hammer pants yeah parachute
01:44
pants or is that something else
01:45
yeah it's mc hammer pants give me a rick
01:47
those should come back yeah you can
01:48
pause
01:49
google come on back we'll wait
01:53
all right well now now i really do
01:55
actually need a drink
01:57
today we are drinking a brandy first
02:00
time
02:01
on pastor and philosopher walk into a
02:02
bar that we're drinking a brandy it's
02:04
usually always been
02:05
beer or whiskey bourbon particularly
02:08
but we're drinking a brandy because our
02:10
friends at story hill bkc supplied us
02:12
with some wisconsin
02:13
brandy yeah this is so woolersheim
02:16
distillery i think i'm saying that right
02:17
yep
02:18
it's their press house brandy and
02:20
wollersheim is
02:21
a distillery but they're i think they're
02:24
more of
02:24
a winery now storehill people might want
02:27
me to come in and edit this if
02:28
it's not the case but i think they're
02:30
doing wine and they figured why not do
02:32
brandy because brandy comes from grapes
02:34
and so they started doing brandy
02:36
their distillery is in spring green
02:38
wisconsin which if you're from the area
02:40
if you're local you know that's a
02:41
beautiful area of the state just
02:43
gorgeous
02:43
wisconsin rivers cutting through it so
02:45
we're gonna have their
02:47
brandy which elliot's drinking it neat
02:50
i'm drinking it
02:51
with a couple of rocks and kyle what are
02:53
you doing there
02:54
i mixed it into a cocktail so i made a
02:56
sidecar with it
02:57
uh mostly because when i went to the
02:59
website it said it was mostly intended
03:01
for
03:02
it said it was perfect for cocktails so
03:04
i thought well what the heck
03:06
uh so i made a very simple cocktail just
03:08
brandy lemon and orange liqueur
03:11
uh and so it's a fun side by side
03:12
because i still have some here awesome
03:14
as well all right well cheers i do not
03:18
have a lot of brandy experience
03:20
nor do i i mean i've had some i've had
03:22
some fruit brandies like apple and peach
03:24
and whatnot
03:24
i don't have wide experience with normal
03:27
brandies i
03:28
if i'm going to make a cocktail that
03:29
calls for brandy i usually use copper
03:31
and kings which honestly takes more like
03:32
whiskey than it does like brandy so
03:34
i don't know a ton about brandy this is
03:36
fun i i
03:38
don't drink brandy just don't do it at
03:39
all and so instantly i feel like i'm
03:42
tasting something for the first time
03:44
almost even though you know
03:46
wisconsin is the brandy capital of the
03:48
world because of the brandy old fashions
03:50
that we consume but
03:51
just with a couple of rocks here which
03:52
are not old fashions let's just
03:54
no no no no yeah no no
03:58
wisconsin also makes some really
04:00
delicious real
04:01
old fashions but we digress what i'm
04:04
tasting here though
04:05
is instantly fruit it's much much
04:07
different than whiskey where you're
04:09
tasting that grain
04:10
similar to whiskey i'm tasting the oak i
04:12
really am those are the two main things
04:14
right away
04:15
like rich fruit and
04:18
toasty oaky woody flavors coming in
04:21
which is very pleasant
04:24
yeah it's sweet it yeah it tastes like
04:27
uh
04:28
it's like an apple pie is that uh is
04:30
that blasphemous to say about brandy
04:31
i like this no i think like a tart apple
04:33
pie yeah
04:34
yeah i wouldn't know as soon as you said
04:36
the toasted flavors
04:38
like i was still kind of trying to pick
04:40
it apart and that that hits strong it's
04:41
like a it's like a charred toast it's a
04:43
yes
04:44
a lot of smoke really yummy yeah
04:47
so i read that in the united states if
04:50
if it's less than two years old they
04:52
have to put
04:52
immature on the label which i think is
04:55
hilarious because nobody would want to
04:56
put that on their label
04:58
which is a great way of ensuring that
04:59
they actually age their branding yeah
05:01
i'm a fan of this brandy roller shine
05:03
yeah i will say it makes a delicious
05:05
cocktail so so look for it uh
05:07
wisconsinites in particular i don't know
05:08
if it's found outside of wisconsin
05:10
but this is a delicious little treat
05:13
here
05:14
it's definitely found at story hill bkc
05:16
so
05:17
my takeaway from this is that we need to
05:19
relabel our podcast
05:20
since we're less than two years old
05:30
i think that's pretty accurate still
05:32
aging
05:33
cheers so friends as kyle said
05:37
in the introduction last week we spoke
05:40
all sorts of things about just framing
05:42
up what the bible is the bible is not
05:44
just a book the bible is a
05:46
library of 66 books written by dozens
05:49
of authors and we don't even know how
05:52
many authors
05:53
have written the bible because it's an
05:55
ancient document
05:57
more than a thousand years old and it's
06:00
a
06:00
fairly messy library at that it's a
06:02
messy document
06:03
it's a messy process and that's kind of
06:06
why it's also kind of beautiful to me
06:08
but the bible is this what we call
06:11
inspired which
06:12
there's all sorts of take on what that
06:14
inspired word means
06:15
the bible is authoritative to some of us
06:18
to different degrees for others of us
06:21
and it held no authority for
06:23
for many of us and here's here's what we
06:25
touched on a little bit but i want to
06:26
really kind of
06:27
dig into this just a little bit the
06:29
bible is a source
06:31
of deconstruction and walking away from
06:33
the faith for a lot of people
06:36
deconstruction is this kind of fancy
06:38
trendy term
06:39
in the church right now a lot of younger
06:41
people will identify themselves as
06:43
deconstructing their faith
06:44
can't deal with it as it is and many
06:48
many people have a story of entering
06:49
into a season of deconstruction because
06:51
too many people poked holes in the
06:52
scriptures
06:53
and pointed out a bunch of problems with
06:55
the bible and they
06:57
just doubt filled their world and they
07:00
were given a faith
07:01
that if you doubt a little bit that
07:02
means you doubt everything and you can't
07:04
have doubt in your in your faith journey
07:05
you can't have doubt
07:06
in the bible in the authority of the
07:08
scriptures and when you do
07:10
everything falls apart and so if it's
07:11
this literal jenga tower
07:13
where you pull out one little block and
07:15
the whole thing crumbles and falls
07:17
they say i'm out i'm done that to me
07:21
is exhibit a for how
07:24
we in the church have
07:28
given the generations that have
07:31
come after us a really faulty way of
07:34
holding and
07:35
seeing and approaching and engaging with
07:38
the scriptures
07:39
that's i mean that to me that's just
07:41
obvious right
07:43
if you're if the way that you're telling
07:45
people to engage with
07:48
and approach the scriptures is actually
07:50
causing them
07:51
to walk away from the faith we got to do
07:53
something different
07:55
do you know what i'm talking about kyle
07:56
yeah yeah i mean i've been there
07:58
for sure and i had to do something
08:00
different i mean there's no way i could
08:02
have
08:02
held on to the the vision of the bible
08:04
the interpretation of the bible that i
08:06
was given
08:07
as as a young evangelical so
08:11
the fact that i'm still a person of
08:12
faith is a testament to the fact that
08:14
you
08:14
you can do this yes exactly there is
08:17
another there is a better way
08:18
exactly so in our last episode i said
08:21
that i have an ulterior motive
08:23
to some to these episodes and that is
08:25
that i want to i hope that these
08:27
episodes are revealing and previewing
08:29
and promoting a different way that we
08:30
can actually talk about the scriptures
08:32
with one another a different way that we
08:34
can can give
08:36
the people that we're giving this
08:38
approach to the scriptures we can give
08:39
them a different way of operating a
08:40
different way of holding and approaching
08:41
the scriptures
08:42
that actually can hold the
08:44
inconsistencies and makes room for the
08:46
problems
08:46
makes room for the for the
08:49
contradictions
08:50
and still says you can put your trust in
08:52
this in some way shape or form
08:54
you can ask the hard questions about
08:56
this book you can you can be
08:58
uncomfortable
08:59
and actually have issues with this book
09:02
and still be a legitimate follower of
09:03
christ
09:04
those are important things to me that i
09:06
hope church leaders and not just church
09:08
leaders but
09:09
people who are speaking as authority in
09:10
the church are actually engaging with
09:13
and i hope
09:14
that maybe these episodes man this would
09:16
be awesome
09:17
if these could be a way back in for some
09:20
people who have said i can't settle for
09:22
that version of the bible i can't settle
09:24
for that way of
09:25
approaching the bible i can't do it if
09:26
that's the way i have to do it i'm out
09:29
and i want to tell you if that's you if
09:30
you've if you've said that if you said
09:32
i'm
09:32
out because of that i want you to know
09:35
that there's all
09:36
sorts of space for you to just ask those
09:38
questions have those doubts
09:40
have those conversations in community
09:43
and you're welcome here
09:44
yeah so man randy used some buzzwords
09:46
there i think i heard the word
09:47
contradiction
09:49
that's going to raise the hackles here
09:50
we go a lot of potential listeners
09:52
what do you think the problems are what
09:54
what contradictions you speak of because
09:56
i remember when i was uh really into
09:58
apologetics which is something we've
09:59
we've mentioned on the podcast
10:01
one of the like main tasks of
10:04
evangelical apologetics
10:06
is to show that there are no
10:07
contradictions
10:09
what is sad task i don't know right i
10:11
remember looking at websites where
10:14
the whole thing was just devoted to
10:17
here's all the
10:18
contradictions that atheists and secular
10:20
people have pointed out and here's why
10:21
they're not actually contradictions
10:23
i can't imagine spending your time
10:25
trying to formulate some kind of
10:28
adequate explanation of every single one
10:29
because they're literally thousands
10:31
i'm pretty sure there's like that right
10:33
there that website
10:35
is is like the illustration in the
10:37
dictionary for
10:38
straw man right good grief
10:43
so i mean if i had heard you say even 10
10:46
years ago
10:47
what you just said my hackles would have
10:49
been going up and i would have been
10:50
saying well
10:51
what are you talking about randy there's
10:53
there's no such thing
10:54
so what do you think the what problems
10:56
are you alluding to there
10:58
i mean i can't even go into it even a
11:01
little bit
11:02
because there are many many
11:05
contradictions in the bible
11:06
many many inconsistencies one that i
11:09
think
11:09
pops to my head more than others is
11:12
second samuel
11:13
and first chronicles speaking to the
11:15
same thing where where david takes a
11:17
census
11:17
and second samuel 24 says that god moved
11:21
david to take a census in first
11:23
chronicles 21
11:24
says that satan moved david to take a
11:26
census and we're all left wondering
11:29
which is it because that's a lot that's
11:30
a big extreme right there
11:32
god moved him where satan moved him
11:34
nothing in the middle
11:36
that's a that's a contradiction that's
11:38
that's that's a
11:39
definition of a contradiction right
11:41
there's there's all sorts of them here's
11:42
one that
11:43
many people i didn't honestly i didn't
11:46
realize until
11:47
man i don't know five ten years ago
11:51
there is not just one creation story in
11:53
the bible
11:55
i'm not sure if any yeah it's one of
11:57
those things that just smacks you in the
11:58
face the first time you think about it
12:00
right but but you have to be told it
12:02
yeah absolutely absolutely
12:04
absolutely genesis 1 is the first
12:07
creation account
12:08
in narrative in the bible genesis 2 is
12:11
not
12:11
this like and here goes the story it's
12:14
actually a
12:15
second creation story and there's
12:18
different order to it
12:19
right genesis 1 is this linear but it's
12:22
also
12:23
poetic it's this poetic way of talking
12:26
about the way god
12:28
created earth and humanity and all
12:31
that's
12:32
all all of this life and we in our
12:36
in our evolution and creation uh episode
12:38
talked through
12:39
what actually the original writers meant
12:42
by this creative
12:42
creation story but genesis 1 is
12:44
beautiful it's
12:46
linear it's poetic it's fun and god
12:49
creates
12:50
light and night and day in the sun in
12:53
the celestial
12:54
bodies in and he creates separates water
12:57
from
12:57
earth and he creates vegetation and
12:59
plant life you create
13:01
god creates animals and then the
13:03
pinnacle of creation
13:04
genesis i think 26 27 is creating
13:07
humanity god creating humanity and god's
13:09
own image
13:11
and he's very pleased at all these
13:13
different
13:14
takes of genesis 1 he's very pleased
13:16
then all of a sudden genesis 2 takes off
13:18
and you get a totally different story
13:20
right you get
13:21
i believe i'm not looking at it right
13:23
now i should be i have my bible
13:25
five feet away but i believe what you
13:28
find is that god creates adam first
13:31
and he creates adam out of dust and then
13:33
he begins creating everything else
13:34
and and he begins walking with adam and
13:37
giving him this vocation of caring for
13:39
creation and doing all this stuff and
13:41
it's not poetic anymore you'll notice
13:43
genesis 1 and genesis 2 have a different
13:45
feel to them
13:46
and that's because the genre is
13:47
different genesis 1 is poetry genesis 2
13:50
is prose
13:51
so that right there is very interesting
13:53
if we're playing no it's it's almost as
13:54
though
13:55
they had different authors interesting
13:58
interesting right
13:59
so different different genres
14:02
in different order first adam then
14:05
everything else
14:06
then god notices that it's not suitable
14:08
for man to be alone so he creates
14:10
eve out of adam's side the story is very
14:13
different
14:14
it's it's told in a different fashion
14:17
it's told in a different
14:18
rhythm and order and what we find
14:22
is that many biblical scholars believe
14:24
that
14:25
and and really have good reason to
14:26
believe that two different people wrote
14:28
those two different stories
14:30
and what we find as well is many of us
14:33
were given this idea of the
14:34
of the old testament particularly the
14:35
pentateuch the first five books of the
14:37
bible
14:38
is being written by moses all of almost
14:41
all of us have
14:42
been handed that thought well it turns
14:45
out most biblical scholars don't think
14:46
that moses wrote the pentateuch the
14:48
first five books of the bible they
14:49
believe that there were four main
14:51
rabbinical traditions that each wrote
14:54
different portions of the pentateuch and
14:56
it goes in and out
14:57
and you can look it up and man i'd love
14:59
to have a pentateuch scholar on at some
15:01
point to tell us about it because
15:02
there's
15:03
there's the j the the j narrative which
15:06
is the the yahweh
15:08
in german yahweh is is spelled with a j
15:11
rather than a y so there's the the j
15:13
school there's the e school the m
15:14
elohim they primarily refer to god as
15:17
elohim
15:18
this other school this other rabbinical
15:19
school primarily refers to god is
15:21
yahweh then there's so there's a j
15:23
there's the e there's the d
15:24
the deuteronomic school of thought that
15:28
wrote the pentateuch and then there's
15:29
the the p school the priestly
15:32
vein the priestly rabbinical tradition
15:34
that wrote into the pentateuch as well
15:36
so they most scholars believe most good
15:38
scholars believe that there's four
15:40
rabbinical schools that wrote bits and
15:41
pieces of the pentateuch and they put it
15:43
all together
15:43
and there was an editor that picked and
15:46
chose between these four rabbinical
15:47
schools and put
15:48
in what we have and it's super
15:51
interesting
15:52
that there's two creation accounts two
15:54
creation narratives
15:55
that the editors of the pentateuch
15:58
decided to take one from one school
16:00
one from another school and both put
16:02
them there that tells us something first
16:04
about the jewish faith
16:06
which really is based on in large part
16:08
on debate
16:09
and argument they love debating and
16:12
arguing
16:12
over theology over who god is what god's
16:15
like how this
16:16
came to be how this happened that's very
16:18
jewish and it's
16:20
our heritage as christians as as
16:23
coming from the jewish roots it makes a
16:25
lot of sense that there's four different
16:26
schools that they didn't feel the need
16:28
to say let's pick the best school
16:30
the best author and put it in let's
16:32
actually fit it in
16:33
and have this beautiful debate
16:37
but also beautiful diamond-like prism
16:41
where you see creation from a couple of
16:43
different angles and
16:44
you see the story of god and his people
16:47
from a couple of different angles so you
16:48
could say there's a problem there
16:50
and many probably atheists have said
16:51
well did you even know that you have two
16:53
creation accounts in your in your own
16:54
sacred texts
16:55
and then many christians would go oh no
16:57
we don't what are you talking about
16:59
and the reality is is we don't have to
17:01
be scared of that that's
17:03
it doesn't have to be contradiction even
17:05
though it does contradict one another
17:06
we can say what are the writers of the
17:09
scriptures
17:10
slash what is god trying to teach us
17:13
through these two different stories that
17:14
are getting at
17:15
a very similar thing which is
17:19
god wants his people to dwell on the
17:21
earth as his temple
17:22
and they are going to be his image
17:24
bearers that
17:26
show the rest of humanity what god is
17:29
like
17:30
that's kind of what the story is about
17:32
and it's told in this
17:33
multi-faceted sort of way and it's not
17:37
just the old testament where you have
17:38
this
17:39
multitude of voices and multitude of
17:41
opinions and directions the new
17:43
testament is like this as well
17:45
and again many christians might be
17:47
uncomfortable with this thought
17:48
but if you actually just think your way
17:50
through the new testament it's obvious
17:53
peter has a different view of the church
17:56
and of
17:56
jesus and of god than paul does that's
17:59
just obvious
18:00
right i mean because they actually
18:01
argued vehemently they didn't like each
18:03
other very much
18:03
for a decent period of time if you look
18:06
in the book of acts
18:08
peter had a different theological view
18:10
than paul did
18:11
paul had a different theological view
18:13
than john the apostle did
18:15
if you read the apostle john and you
18:16
read the apostle paul you're going to
18:18
hear a totally different feel and
18:20
emphasis
18:21
than you will from john to paul and then
18:24
you read james
18:25
and james is this crazy outlier a lot
18:28
more similar to peter in his jewish
18:30
background but james has a very
18:32
different
18:33
theology and view of god and the way
18:37
things work
18:38
than paul does for instance and i've
18:40
heard scholars say
18:42
that the church fathers as they were
18:44
putting together the canon
18:46
had an argument had a disagreement about
18:48
whether we just use paul
18:50
or we just use peter or we just use john
18:52
or we just use james
18:54
or if we use them all there was a
18:57
disagreement about this because it would
18:58
have been a lot easier
18:59
simpler the atheists wouldn't have had
19:01
as much ammo
19:02
if they would have put just one person
19:05
in there right one person's viewpoint it
19:06
would have been cleaner and neater
19:08
that's not what they decided upon they
19:10
decided to put the
19:11
concert the symphony of voices in there
19:14
to kind of
19:15
color in our theology and our view of
19:17
god and
19:18
in our view of reality and what god's
19:20
like to put in this
19:22
multitude of testimonies within the new
19:24
testament i think
19:25
quite honestly it's beautiful it's
19:27
brilliant it gives us
19:28
a rubric and a way of of how to engage
19:31
with the scriptures and how to engage
19:33
with
19:33
faith in a way that we can disagree with
19:35
one another even substantially
19:37
but we can still be part of the same
19:38
tradition our scriptures
19:40
are a model for it yeah
19:43
and that that obviously speaks to me as
19:46
someone who studies and writes about
19:48
disagreement to
19:49
to find in the text itself a model of
19:53
uh disagreeing about the most important
19:56
things
19:58
and and that somehow the disagreement
20:00
itself
20:01
gets enshrined as inspired scripture
20:04
isn't that interesting so one of the
20:06
things i love about the
20:07
the jewish tradition that i wish
20:10
christians
20:11
were better at honestly and there were
20:12
periods in history where we were better
20:14
at it
20:15
uh is continuing that
20:18
that conversation that disagreement
20:20
about the same topics and about the text
20:22
itself
20:24
um so to quote i think it was peter ends
20:27
that said christians tend to see
20:30
the bible as kind of a set of answers or
20:34
something like that whereas
20:36
jews tend to see the bible as a problem
20:38
that needs to be solved
20:40
and rabbis approach the the text of
20:43
scripture
20:44
as a starting point for a conversation
20:47
and often a really heated
20:49
conversation a disagreement a way
20:52
a way into a dialectic
20:55
and i think that's a much healthier way
20:56
to approach scripture and it's also a
20:58
way that's more in keeping with what you
20:59
find in the text itself
21:00
exactly not just the old testament but
21:02
the new testament as well yeah
21:03
and we've just kind of blown right by
21:06
that and ignored it
21:07
to our detriment i would say yeah so
21:10
yeah contradictions we didn't delve into
21:13
them they're all over the place and
21:14
again why wasn't just the gospel of
21:16
matthew featured
21:18
and just that that's the story or john
21:20
or marker
21:21
you know luke for that matter they
21:23
decided to put four different narratives
21:25
who don't always agree on the facts of
21:28
the matter which makes sense right
21:29
because if i was
21:30
if there were 12 of us who were hanging
21:32
out with this one person
21:34
and they asked us about tell us that
21:36
story of when that one person
21:38
healed that leper you'd probably get out
21:41
of 12 of us
21:41
probably eight different stories about
21:43
the particulars of what happened how
21:45
many people were there
21:46
all that stuff and they still the church
21:49
fathers still decided to put
21:50
four different narratives in there
21:52
instead of one authoritative one
21:54
which again just speaks to the nature of
21:56
the foundations of our faith
21:58
are rooted in a diversity of opinions
22:01
a diversity of perspectives and an
22:04
inclusion of it not just a
22:06
comfort with it but saying this is the
22:08
best way to do theology this is the best
22:12
way to follow christ and to to have a
22:15
journey with god
22:16
is to listen to a diversity of voices
22:18
conversationally
22:19
and then from there put something
22:22
together that we can call our own
22:24
that's beautiful yeah and you know
22:27
thoughtful people that approach the text
22:30
from a perspective of assuming that the
22:32
whole thing has to agree and there can't
22:33
be any contradictions and it's one
22:35
unified story from beginning to end
22:38
by you know inspired by the same author
22:39
and whatever who then dive into the text
22:42
and really study it study it with
22:44
experts go to graduate school and study
22:46
it
22:47
these people inevitably reach a point
22:50
where they have to decide okay i have to
22:52
restructure my faith
22:54
and what my expectations are for this
22:56
text
22:57
or i'm out and a decent a decent example
23:00
of this
23:01
is a relatively famous agnostic
23:04
and critic of the bible at this point a
23:06
guy named bart airman
23:08
who has made a career i mean he's a
23:10
legit new testament scholar
23:12
really good pedigree nobody denies that
23:14
the guy knows what he's talking about
23:16
but he's made a career of casting the
23:19
new testament in a really negative light
23:21
really trying to sort of argue people
23:23
out of faith
23:25
by trying to to say that the scriptures
23:28
are unreliable
23:30
and he has a lot of material to appeal
23:32
to i mean there's all sorts of
23:33
contradictions there's all sorts of
23:35
scribal insertions places where it's
23:37
just so obvious that at some point
23:40
some scribe who was translating this
23:43
text
23:43
or copying this text saw a part that was
23:47
difficult
23:47
and wanted to resolve the difficulty and
23:49
so changed the text i mean there are
23:51
lots of cases where we can watch that
23:53
happening
23:53
as though we were watching it on a video
23:55
because we have manuscripts from
23:56
different
23:57
times and we can see these changes
23:59
taking place over time
24:01
and so he points out all these things
24:02
and then his conclusion of course is
24:04
that
24:04
the whole thing's unreliable and we
24:06
shouldn't trust it to give us accurate
24:08
history much less to give us you know
24:10
good theology or whatever
24:12
and he describes himself in his books as
24:16
a former fundamentalist somebody who
24:17
expected the bible
24:19
to be unified and to all say the same
24:21
thing and then he got to a place in
24:23
graduate school i think it was
24:25
and he found himself writing a paper for
24:27
a class
24:28
where he tries to resolve one of these
24:30
contradictions
24:31
and he events this elaborate explanation
24:33
the story of how this could have
24:35
happened without being contradictory but
24:36
at the end of it and i think he got a
24:38
fine grade but at the end of it he said
24:40
i just couldn't believe my own argument
24:42
wow i had to jump through all these
24:43
hoops to resolve that and at the end of
24:45
the day i had to just conclude
24:47
no it really it really does contradict
24:49
itself those manuscripts
24:51
don't agree with each other and at that
24:54
point and every thoughtful person who
24:56
really digs into it reaches that point
24:58
and you face a decision and the decision
25:02
is do i
25:02
do i restructure my faith such that that
25:05
kind of evidence
25:06
is okay or even expected
25:09
or do i give up the whole thing and
25:11
unfortunately he gave up the whole thing
25:13
yep but other people other biblical
25:16
scholars reach the same place and it
25:18
doesn't have quite
25:18
the same impact because they don't view
25:20
their faith as
25:22
if one thing goes the whole thing goes
25:24
right right
25:25
and to me again this is again i'm making
25:28
my case
25:29
and we're making our case there's a
25:31
better way
25:32
to give the scriptures away and to teach
25:35
the scriptures and to teach how to
25:37
approach the scriptures there's just a
25:38
better way
25:39
because what we're do what we've been
25:41
doing in the church for the last couple
25:43
hundred years
25:44
is counterproductive actually like we're
25:47
we're telling people this is the way you
25:48
have to approach the scriptures and if
25:49
you do so any other way or if you have
25:51
any problem with it you have to
25:52
you've abandoned the faith and people
25:54
will say well i guess i could abandon
25:55
the faith
25:56
that is not helpful there's a better way
26:00
to to empower and encourage people
26:03
to dig deeper to be able to hold their
26:05
faith with uncertainty with questions
26:07
with doubts
26:08
and to hold the scriptures with all of
26:10
those to be able to hold it with the
26:11
contradictions and the imperfections
26:13
and to still dig in and be able to say i
26:16
don't have to chuck the whole thing
26:17
there's just got to be a better way and
26:20
i mean this is how many christians i'm
26:22
sure each of you know people like this
26:25
i know so many people who have grown up
26:27
in the church
26:28
loved jesus loved the scriptures loved
26:30
it all and then they loved it so much
26:32
they say i want to be a pastor
26:34
a ministry leader whatever and they go
26:35
to seminary right and
26:38
this is this has happened more often
26:39
than not actually for my friends who've
26:41
gone
26:41
to seminary they go to seminary and they
26:45
learn about they look under the hood of
26:47
the scriptures and they learn about the
26:49
the
26:49
the complexities in the contradictions
26:52
in the way this was all put together
26:56
and some of them walk away from the
26:57
faith altogether they say i can't do it
26:58
anymore i don't believe it
27:00
or some of them have a tremendous
27:03
excruciating faith crisis that lasts
27:05
years long
27:06
and eventually maybe they come back to a
27:08
different nuanced more mature kind of
27:10
faith but
27:11
looking under the hood for many people
27:13
actually introduces a faith crisis of
27:15
epic proportions
27:16
which tells me again we're doing this
27:19
the wrong way
27:20
church we're we're not handing a
27:23
sustainable
27:24
method of approaching the scriptures and
27:26
we can do and we
27:27
must do different yeah i'm on this i'm
27:30
on a major soapbox i apologize
27:32
it's a good time it's all right if the
27:34
podcast isn't a place for a soapbox then
27:37
i don't know what it is
27:41
it's like the most narcissistic thing a
27:43
person could do that's true
27:44
thank you for being honest
27:48
so should we get into some of the more
27:51
specific
27:52
issues that might lead people to have
27:55
that kind of crisis
27:56
that you were just describing let's do
27:58
it let's do it kyle
27:59
so one of the things that an astute
28:02
reader of scripture will notice
28:03
if you just start from the beginning
28:05
beginning being genesis
28:07
and read the thing through is that the
28:10
bible is extremely violent
28:14
now you might not notice its violence
28:16
right away because a lot of us have been
28:18
enculturated to not
28:19
see it as violence so an example that we
28:22
pointed to
28:23
in the last episode was the story of
28:26
noah
28:27
we're we're enculturated we're primed to
28:30
think of that as like a happy
28:32
fun even childlike story yeah we've got
28:35
songs about it
28:36
yeah yeah i remember being in a vbs
28:40
and we built a big paper mache whale no
28:42
this was jonah
28:43
we built a big paper mache whale that we
28:45
all went into and sat around and we did
28:47
the same thing with the ark you know
28:49
uh and you view these stories through
28:50
that really like you know
28:53
child like kind of fun up the ark
28:56
noah brother noah built the ark
29:01
that song alone should occlude us and
29:02
that there's something deeply wrong with
29:04
the story
29:08
but then you read it as an adult and you
29:10
see
29:11
holy crap this is dark
29:15
uh and and just reading this i mean you
29:17
can't read the book of judges
29:19
joshua paul or joshua
29:22
and at the things that not not only the
29:25
things that the characters do
29:27
but the things that god does the things
29:30
that god
29:31
commands directly and endorses
29:35
the bible is extremely violent
29:37
especially
29:38
in the hebrew scriptures but also
29:41
somewhat in the new testament i mean you
29:43
have that weird story of
29:45
ananias and sapphira and acts where the
29:47
holy spirit apparently
29:49
murders some people we don't like to
29:52
talk about that
29:54
you have you have portions of the old
29:55
testament or the hebrew scriptures where
29:57
god
29:58
directly commands genocide
30:01
we don't like to talk about that you
30:03
have a couple places where it seems like
30:05
god is asking for child sacrifice
30:08
we don't like to talk about that you
30:11
have places where
30:12
god instructs the israelites to take
30:15
sexual slaves
30:17
we don't like to talk about that you
30:20
have the place where
30:21
sarah abraham's wife makes hagar
30:25
a sexual slave and then tries to get god
30:29
to bless that
30:30
and then god blesses that
30:33
we don't like to talk about that there's
30:35
all this stuff and that's not even
30:37
scratching the surface
30:38
there's a really good book about
30:40
violence in the hebrew scriptures by
30:43
gregory boyd called the crucifixion of
30:46
the warrior god
30:47
and there's a chapter in that book where
30:49
he just lays out
30:51
by his own reading just a list
30:55
of the most violent portraits of god in
30:58
the old testament
30:59
and it's worth reading but man is a
31:01
difficult reading
31:02
because there's something like a
31:03
thousand passages just in the hebrew
31:06
scriptures where you have
31:08
violent things happening and god
31:09
condoning it or god directly doing or
31:11
commanding violent things
31:14
so much so that atheists and secular
31:18
people have latched on to this so i just
31:19
want to read you a quote real quick
31:21
from i know one of our favorite authors
31:24
a guy named richard dawkins
31:27
who who wrote this really terrible book
31:29
called the god delusion
31:30
but he says something in that book that
31:32
is kind of rooted in reality and
31:34
this is his description of the god of
31:37
the hebrew scriptures so richard dawkins
31:39
says this
31:40
the god of the old testament is arguably
31:43
the most unpleasant character in all
31:45
fiction jealous and proud of it
31:48
a petty unjust unforgiving control freak
31:53
a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic
31:56
cleanser
31:57
a misogynistic homophobic racist
32:01
infanticidal genocidal filicidal
32:05
pestilential megalomaniacal
32:08
sadomasochistic capriciously malevolent
32:12
bully you say what you mean richard he
32:15
didn't pull any punches right
32:17
and it's funny each of those words you
32:19
can tell were chosen based on a
32:20
particular thing that happens
32:22
in the hebrew scripture if you're
32:25
familiar enough with the text
32:26
i know what 80 percent of those words
32:28
mean yeah you know what he's referring
32:30
to
32:31
when you hear those words so everything
32:33
that he's referring to here
32:34
has at least one place in the old
32:37
testament where
32:38
that seems like what's happening and and
32:40
it's it's difficult to read the thing as
32:42
an adult
32:43
with adult moral sensibilities
32:46
and come away with the view that god is
32:48
purely love
32:50
that god is just even
32:54
yep or even more difficult that god is
32:57
like what the new testament says god is
32:59
like
33:00
maybe that's the main thing because
33:02
jesus
33:04
and for example the sermon on the mount
33:06
says god is like one thing
33:08
and then you read all these things in
33:10
the old testament and it seems like god
33:11
is a very different thing
33:14
to the extent that this this led some
33:17
people in the history of the church to
33:18
conclude that
33:20
these two testaments were written by
33:22
different gods
33:23
or were inspired by different gods so
33:25
you have this martianite
33:27
heresy it was labeled which i think is
33:30
just an on
33:31
an honest reading of the text which
33:34
which is that
33:35
gosh if these are both inspired then
33:37
they must have been inspired by
33:38
different gods
33:39
because in one case you have a god of
33:41
peace and love and non-violence and in
33:43
the other case you have a god who is
33:44
basically a warrior
33:46
sure now i'll i'll give just and i don't
33:49
like giving disclaimers to this stuff
33:51
because i think
33:52
we have to be able to reconcile this we
33:54
have to be able to
33:56
sit with it and hold it but i will say
33:59
some of the things that both
34:00
dawkins cited and that you cited
34:03
for instance sarah promoting sex slavery
34:07
or whatever that is
34:09
that's just the ancient world in many
34:11
ways right concubines were just a normal
34:13
thing in the ancient world in in the
34:16
ancient near east
34:17
and you could have looked at looked at
34:19
any ancient text or ancient
34:21
sacred text and that would be there
34:23
because that's part of the ancient world
34:25
you can go on down the line polygamy and
34:28
you know all this stuff it's just the
34:29
ancient
34:30
it's the ancient world and my main
34:32
response to dawkins would be
34:34
take your pick of any ancient text
34:36
specifically any ancient sacred text and
34:38
you're going to find
34:39
all of that within it it's just that the
34:41
hebrew bible the hebrew scriptures
34:42
have persisted through time for some odd
34:45
reason right
34:46
they persisted through time and now we
34:47
have to reconcile all this
34:49
mess of the ancient world when we're
34:51
here sitting here in 2020. so of course
34:54
it's going to be messy of course it's
34:55
going to be awful of course it's going
34:56
to be
34:57
unpleasant and seem fictional and all
34:59
this stuff
35:01
welcome to the ancient world right that
35:03
would be my main disclaimer there
35:05
yeah and that's fine if you view the
35:08
text of scripture like any other ancient
35:10
text but of course
35:11
religious people don't want to view the
35:13
text of scripture like any other ancient
35:15
text we want we want it to be
35:17
inspired we want it to be reflective of
35:19
what god is actually like
35:21
and this creates huge problems in our
35:22
theology right and not not only that the
35:24
main
35:25
thing the main difficulty and this is
35:27
what boyd focuses on in his book is that
35:30
the the text of the hebrew scriptures
35:33
and the text of the new testament
35:35
seem to be at odds with each other about
35:37
what god is fundamentally like
35:39
yeah and let me just speak to that as
35:41
well personally
35:42
because i have good close beloved
35:45
friends who are
35:46
kind of at a place where they're like
35:47
i'm kind of done with the old testament
35:49
i understand it and you can't that's the
35:50
kind of the
35:51
the vibe that i was getting from you
35:52
kyle which i understand
35:54
but i would have a couple of of little
35:57
thoughts to
35:58
submit to you one would be when you
35:59
write off the old testament you're
36:01
writing off a lot of beautiful stuff
36:03
i mean the creation narrative is some of
36:05
the most beautiful writing i think the
36:07
world has ever known
36:08
and inspiring and wonder and
36:10
awe-inspiring
36:12
right there in the first two chapters of
36:14
the bible the third chapter of the bible
36:16
this
36:16
fascinates me so the book of genesis is
36:19
this fascinating
36:20
historical theological book but you go
36:23
further on and it's just you're going to
36:24
miss
36:25
all sorts of gold if you throughout the
36:27
old testament
36:28
particularly in the psalms the psalms
36:31
are this
36:31
beautiful raw picture of what a
36:33
spiritual a real spiritual journey looks
36:35
like where we get to see the psalmists
36:37
wrestling with god and wrestling with
36:40
wondering whether
36:41
god really is there or not whether he's
36:43
for them or not whether he's for their
36:45
enemies
36:46
it's this brilliant picture of the
36:48
spiritual life then you progress
36:50
and you get into the prophets and i
36:52
don't know of many if
36:53
any faith traditions besides judaism
36:56
and christianity that have self-critique
36:59
built into their sacred text right into
37:02
their tradition
37:03
where you have people slamming the
37:06
people of god
37:07
in in calling them to the carpet and
37:10
saying
37:10
you guys don't get what my heart is the
37:12
the reality of the prophets that we find
37:14
in the old testament in the hebrew
37:16
scriptures
37:17
is so subversive so radical
37:20
and so different than what we find in
37:22
other sacred texts
37:24
i would submit that if you're throwing
37:26
out the old testament you're throwing
37:28
all that good and then i would say in
37:30
ever any new testament scholar
37:32
worth their weight would say you can't
37:35
understand the new testament without
37:36
understanding the story of the old
37:37
testament
37:38
you can't understand the story of jesus
37:40
without understanding the story of
37:41
israel
37:42
you can't understand the book of romans
37:44
certainly without understanding the
37:45
story of
37:46
israel and the faithfulness and
37:48
righteousness of god so
37:50
you can throw out the old testament for
37:52
a time i would say
37:53
if you're if you're just sparks too many
37:55
unhealthy things in you
37:56
but don't let that last too long because
37:58
you're you're going to have a disjointed
38:00
faith journey you're not going to be
38:02
able to get the complexity in the
38:05
the layers and the nuances to our
38:08
christian faith if you throw out the old
38:09
testament that's my only that's my
38:11
yeah that's my case for the old
38:13
testament
38:14
sure and i'm you know i'm not advocate
38:16
i'm not a mercy knight i'm not
38:17
advocating
38:18
for tossing it out altogether although
38:20
do i have moods
38:21
like that yep yep i mean to make it even
38:23
more pronounced jesus himself
38:25
affirms the inspiration of the hebrew
38:29
scriptures
38:29
yep but if you'll notice and here's some
38:32
people might get uncomfortable with this
38:34
jesus picks and chooses what he quotes
38:36
from the old testament
38:37
you know what i'm talking about jesus
38:39
there's large swaths of the old
38:41
testament that jesus
38:42
doesn't touch whatsoever at all yeah he
38:44
picks up sometimes the the quoting is
38:46
is very obviously chosen exactly like
38:50
when he stands up in quotes from isaiah
38:52
he stops just before it gets to the part
38:56
about god judging israel's enemies sure
38:59
i come to you know you know heal the
39:01
wounds and bind up the
39:02
whatever freedom from the captives and
39:05
yeah makes that about himself and then
39:07
stops
39:08
where you know the good jews in the
39:10
audience are like what about where's the
39:11
rest of it
39:12
why would you why would you stop there
39:14
so definitely
39:15
a selective approach a hermeneutic
39:18
that's already broader than a lot of the
39:20
you know a lot of evangelicals would be
39:21
that is comfortable that is undeniable
39:23
yeah but you know he he he he situates
39:26
himself in the history
39:28
of this scriptural tradition that is
39:30
shot through with violence
39:33
and that's a hard problem yep and it's a
39:35
problem that
39:36
christians should wrestle with and not
39:37
accept easy answers about there's all
39:39
kinds of books out there written by
39:40
apologists who try to make it easier
39:42
than it is
39:43
well if we understand it in context you
39:45
know these numbers aren't actually as
39:46
large as they seem and
39:48
uh you know in the ancient world things
39:49
were so bad that actually you know
39:51
killing your enemies was more merciful
39:52
than letting them live
39:53
yes yes yes none of this stuff
39:56
is going to be acceptable to a person
39:59
who is trying to find out if god is
40:02
really defined
40:03
by agape love
40:06
that's our standard our standard is not
40:08
can we make this palatable
40:10
to the average person our standard is
40:13
can this be
40:14
what jesus said god was like yep and
40:16
that is a really difficult problem
40:18
yep it's a problem that is not solved in
40:21
a kind of dismissive way
40:23
i mean any solutions to that problem are
40:25
going to be very complex
40:27
very difficult and they're going to
40:28
require that we change our view of what
40:30
the bible is
40:31
yep i would agree i mean i would i was
40:33
one who for years
40:35
had that stance of well if you actually
40:37
look at what was going on in canaan and
40:39
if you look at what was going on the
40:40
hibbites and the hittites and the
40:42
jebusites and all the ites you'll
40:44
actually find that
40:45
like god actually in his mercy wiped out
40:49
a whole generation so that he could
40:50
start over because they were so far gone
40:52
all the stuff you know
40:53
i that's that's what i've said and
40:54
that's what i've the case that i've held
40:57
and it's worked for me for a decent
40:59
amount of time
41:00
but it no longer works for me because of
41:02
exactly what you said which is
41:04
if jesus is our hermeneutic if jesus is
41:07
our foundation
41:08
in our authority then that that doesn't
41:11
wash
41:12
actually i don't find that what that
41:14
does to your moral sense that you have
41:16
to convince yourself that somehow this
41:17
is
41:18
this is goodness right right the the the
41:22
ancient form of goodness is just so
41:24
foreign that you couldn't even
41:25
understand it i mean it just it
41:27
the word good loses all meaning at that
41:29
point i mean
41:31
that god then was good and the god now
41:32
is good and that means the same
41:34
thing i mean it's try to explain to your
41:36
daughter
41:37
that that was good and you immediately
41:39
see the limitations of it
41:41
absolutely and i mean i think i think
41:43
it's probably easier for americans than
41:45
other people groups to
41:46
to wash violence and you know see sea
41:49
killing is merciful
41:51
to be just totally honest but it doesn't
41:53
work for me anymore here's what does
41:55
work for me and i hinted at this last
41:56
week
41:57
is this idea and
42:00
again the heretic police are going to be
42:03
swarming right now but
42:05
it's this idea that god let his people
42:07
tell the story it's this idea that
42:10
the scriptures are a messy thing and we
42:13
see beauty in them but we also find
42:15
brokenness honestly and when god lets
42:17
his people tell the story
42:19
perhaps perhaps that means that god is
42:23
on
42:23
some level okay with his people getting
42:25
it wrong about what actually happened
42:27
about what was the heart of god about
42:28
what god
42:29
said as a matter of fact much of the old
42:31
testament is
42:32
from writers who are looking back on
42:35
things that happened
42:36
decades and sometimes centuries ago
42:38
right i mean lots and lots of the old
42:40
testament was written
42:41
during the time in captivity and they
42:43
were writing about
42:44
and they were they were writing as a
42:46
people who were marginalized who were
42:47
conquered who were defeated utterly
42:49
and they're trying to make sense of all
42:51
that had just happened to us and all the
42:53
stories that our forefathers had taught
42:54
us
42:55
they're trying to reconcile it and so it
42:56
seems like maybe god is okay with his
42:59
people getting it wrong god is okay with
43:00
his people
43:01
writing a revisionist history and saying
43:03
no god told us to do that thing that we
43:05
did
43:06
that was actually awful we did it
43:07
because god told us to do that
43:09
or maybe we're biased towards ourselves
43:11
maybe we
43:12
maybe god is just okay with that
43:14
happening within his holy scriptures
43:17
and we need to be okay with that as well
43:18
that's for me
43:20
once i actually sit with that it becomes
43:23
fairly obvious
43:24
to be honest with you and then it
43:26
actually begins to make sense of some of
43:28
the things and then the prophets come in
43:30
is this subversive more pure voice
43:34
saying oh my goodness my people you have
43:37
gone straight
43:37
so far you don't get it anymore you
43:40
don't get me
43:41
that actually makes sense of the story
43:43
to me
43:44
yeah this idea of progressive revelation
43:46
right that god reveals himself to the
43:48
extent that the people receiving it can
43:51
can understand yeah and inevitably
43:53
they're going to translate it through
43:55
their modes of
43:56
of understanding and often it's going to
43:58
come out
43:59
inaccurate it's going to come out from
44:01
our perspective ugly
44:04
but that god was accommodating to that
44:06
that's a good word good term
44:08
yep it's good so the bible the
44:11
violence in the bible is just one
44:12
problem let's let's just roll our
44:14
sleeves up and get after another one
44:15
shall we
44:16
the bible is a paternalistic
44:19
misogynistic text i mean you just you
44:22
can't get away from it old testament and
44:23
new
44:24
the bible was written by men
44:27
largely four men largely and it's just
44:30
all over the pages so we in 2020 pick up
44:33
this ancient text
44:35
and we're like oh my lord this is this
44:38
is disgusting
44:39
right talk about you're you're we're
44:41
both feminists but
44:42
you you are viciously feminist kyle i
44:47
would say
44:47
in a good way um tell us your
44:50
perspective on this
44:51
i hope so yeah yeah i mean this is
44:54
undeniable this is something that
44:55
feminist theologians have been talking
44:56
about for decades and decades
44:58
and once you read them it's you can't
45:00
read the bible the same way
45:02
anymore i mean it just leaps off the
45:04
page i mean as you said it's it's
45:06
written by men it's written in
45:07
patriarchal cultures
45:08
it's written in context where the idea
45:11
that women
45:12
are fully human as autonomous as men
45:15
is just utterly foreign i mean that
45:16
concept isn't even something that would
45:18
have had purchase in the cultures in
45:19
which this
45:20
text was written any of these texts i
45:22
mean the new testament and the old
45:24
so it's unsurprisingly it's extremely
45:26
sexist and and many
45:28
passages are directly misogynistic
45:32
and this is from the very beginning so
45:34
right there at the beginning of genesis
45:36
women are created second
45:38
and one and one of them telling you
45:40
created from from the rib of
45:42
of adam the woman eve which which just
45:45
means life
45:46
eve is a metaphor for the life force but
45:49
the woman
45:50
you know it's it's sexed or gendered as
45:52
woman female
45:53
takes the blame for the sin takes the
45:55
blame for the disobedience it was her
45:57
that was deceived
45:58
by the serpent and adam did what he did
46:02
because of her more or less i mean you
46:04
have early
46:05
early church theologians who make a lot
46:07
of make a big deal of this
46:09
are very explicit that adam adam didn't
46:12
fall into sin it was eve that fell into
46:13
sin
46:15
women from the very beginning assume a
46:16
subordinate role to men
46:18
they're supposed to be the servants
46:19
they're supposed to be the bearer of the
46:21
children
46:23
this is in the old testament this is in
46:25
the new testament
46:27
god is not exclusively but
46:30
consistently referred to as male
46:33
now there are there are some there's
46:35
some really interesting work being done
46:38
by some feminist and womanist
46:41
theologians to re-read and reinterpret
46:44
the scripture and they're finding some
46:47
some passages of that have been there
46:48
all along but that have been overlooked
46:50
where god is referred to in the feminine
46:53
or even in the plural
46:55
which suggests some really interesting
46:56
things about gender but by and large
46:59
in the hebrew scriptures and in the new
47:01
testament and certainly in the history
47:03
of the christian
47:03
church god is understood as masculine
47:06
women make up a tiny minority of named
47:10
characters throughout the bible and the
47:13
women that are named
47:14
almost always depend in some way on men
47:17
there are a few exceptions to that which
47:18
are notable exceptions but the exception
47:20
proves the rule in this case for
47:22
the most part women are not named
47:24
they're not the main character
47:25
they're there to make some point or
47:27
serve some purpose in the
47:28
basically to have some babies yeah or or
47:31
to be sexual slaves even or
47:33
whatever now there are some notable
47:35
exceptions to this
47:37
but that's the norm violence against
47:39
women
47:40
is frequently referenced sometimes it's
47:42
condoned up to and including sexual
47:44
slavery
47:45
murder greed judges 19 for example
47:47
probably the worst part of the whole
47:48
bible if i had to choose
47:51
women are consistently denied the
47:52
privileges of men
47:54
they're they're not allowed leadership
47:56
roles in most contexts they're not
47:57
allowed to teach
47:58
they don't have self-determination
48:00
they're not allowed to be educated they
48:01
don't have sexual autonomy for sure
48:03
so things that we just take for granted
48:05
in our culture are consistently denied
48:06
to women
48:08
throughout the text of the scripture now
48:10
that said there are some
48:12
some glimmers of hope jesus seems
48:14
remarkably egalitarian
48:17
he he has women in his inner circle as
48:20
far as we can tell
48:21
now his named apostles are men
48:25
but for all we can tell that that might
48:27
have been a
48:28
a redactor choice by whoever put
48:31
together that text because in some
48:32
places it seems clear that
48:34
there were also female apostles and
48:36
there were female disciples
48:38
in the inner circle junior mary
48:40
magdalene for example
48:42
uh women were the first to the tomb to
48:44
witness the resurrection so
48:46
you know the story of uh the woman
48:48
caught in adultery
48:49
uh which might be a later insertion
48:53
but nonetheless speaks to jesus
48:55
character in the fact that he seems to
48:56
be remarkably egalitarian
48:58
for his day sometimes paul says things
49:02
that are
49:03
really progressive he seems to take for
49:05
granted that women should be educated
49:08
for example he acknowledges deaconesses
49:10
and even apostles
49:12
who are female in some parts of the
49:14
scripture so romans 16
49:16
first corinthians 7 galatians 3 we see
49:19
the holy spirit falling on women just as
49:21
much as it does on men
49:23
and the early church having to grapple
49:25
with that which is one of the reasons
49:26
that my own tradition the pentecostal
49:28
tradition
49:29
from its founding was more egalitarian
49:32
than the other traditions
49:34
because when the holy spirit falls it
49:35
falls equally
49:37
on men and women they prophesy just as
49:39
much as men do
49:41
but then you also get these seeming
49:43
contradictions in paul
49:45
these are called the texts of terror
49:47
places where paul seems to deny that
49:49
women
49:49
can lead or says that they are in fact
49:53
second class
49:54
it's not permitted that a woman should
49:57
speak or teach
49:58
if she wants to learn she should go home
49:59
and learn from her husband
50:02
all sorts of passages like that first
50:03
corinthians 11 first corinthians 14
50:05
first timothy 2.
50:07
whole list of them now some of those
50:09
passages and
50:10
you know lots of theologians and
50:12
biblical scholars have
50:14
have have done the contextual work
50:17
to try to like massage those passages
50:19
and make it so that well if we see them
50:21
in their context
50:23
some of them seem to be less sharp than
50:26
just reading them in our own 21st
50:28
century context like for example the one
50:30
where
50:30
i think it's first timothy 2 where paul
50:33
says that
50:34
women should go home and learn from
50:35
their husbands well he's still assuming
50:38
that they should be learning which was
50:39
already progressive
50:41
right so some of these we can make a
50:44
little less bad
50:45
but i think we have to admit that at the
50:47
end of the day
50:49
nobody in the bible is going to be up to
50:51
our current standards
50:53
of women's rights nobody in the bible is
50:55
a feminist
50:56
none of the authors probably none of the
50:59
characters
51:00
except maybe jesus and honestly that's a
51:02
reading that we put on the text
51:04
it doesn't have to be read that way
51:06
that's a that's an interpretive choice
51:08
to read jesus that way it's a choice i'm
51:10
fine making but it's a choice
51:13
um so if this is a deal breaker issue
51:16
for a 21st century person
51:19
and honestly i would say it should be a
51:21
deal breaker issue
51:22
then however we're going to read the
51:24
bible has to be flexible
51:27
has to be non-literalist has to be
51:30
able to say that look this thing can be
51:34
true about what god is like
51:36
but it's filtered through a lot of
51:38
nonsense and a lot of baggage and a lot
51:41
of
51:42
immoral assumptions that were purely
51:44
cultural
51:45
that we have moved past and
51:48
we have to retain what's good about it
51:50
and discard what's not
51:52
i think that right there is a really
51:54
really really good point that
51:56
we would all do well to listen to in
51:59
that
51:59
when you say if we are uncomfortable
52:02
with
52:03
the sexism and misogyny that we find in
52:06
the scriptures which we
52:07
should be if you're not uncomfortable
52:09
with it
52:10
i worry about your character if you're
52:14
uncomfortable with it
52:15
then that means we must read this in a
52:18
non-literalistic
52:20
way and and approach the scriptures from
52:22
a different way than
52:24
we've been given that to me is
52:27
that's like a light bulb going on that's
52:29
a that's a that's something that we all
52:31
need to wrestle
52:32
with whether we're super progressive or
52:34
whether we're extremely fundamentalist
52:36
that if you're if you're okay with the
52:39
treatment of women
52:40
that you find in the scriptures if
52:42
you're okay with that you think that's
52:43
good that's god ordained
52:46
man that's not the kind of jesus that i
52:47
follow that's just not my faith
52:49
i i i'm sorry if you're not okay with it
52:52
i would say praise the lord
52:54
and now we actually have to do the work
52:56
of saying how do we approach the
52:57
scriptures that's such a good point kyle
52:59
that i'm
53:00
i'm repeating probably twice because i
53:02
want it to settle in a little bit
53:05
that if that's the case we need to have
53:07
a non-literalistic
53:08
perspective and approach to the bible
53:11
that's going to actually
53:12
require some nuance and complexity from
53:15
us and require some conversation
53:17
because for me as i'm listening to you
53:20
i'm like yes yes yes yes yes yes
53:22
but what else do we expect of an ancient
53:24
text that's that's that's what i would
53:26
say is like what
53:27
of course if the bible is a product of
53:29
its time it's a product of its
53:31
of its people i mean and i would say you
53:34
know the the bible lover in me would say
53:36
well just so you know
53:37
the apostle paul was taken as a
53:38
subversive radical in his day
53:41
in the early church was was known in the
53:43
roman empire as
53:45
being people who wanted to overthrow
53:47
society because they actually gave
53:49
places of honor to women and slaves
53:51
which was completely counter-cultural
53:54
slaves and women were given places
53:56
of honor within the early church and
53:57
because of that the people in the roman
53:59
empire thought that they wanted to
54:00
overthrow society
54:01
that's beautiful and that's a story that
54:03
you don't hear if you just
54:05
take that surface level reading but we
54:07
have to be able to reconcile the fact
54:09
that this is an
54:10
ancient document that we're reading
54:12
that's a product of its time
54:14
it's inspired but that word is
54:16
complicated
54:17
not simple and it doesn't mean that that
54:20
when we say that the bible is inspired
54:22
and we take that to say then
54:24
that this is how we should treat women
54:25
this is how we should the positions
54:28
women should or shouldn't have that's
54:30
where i have a major
54:31
major major problem because then we're
54:34
going to all live
54:35
in the first century a.d as far as how
54:38
we live our lives and how we treat one
54:40
another then it's okay to have a slave
54:42
then it's okay
54:43
to divorce your wife if you don't like
54:45
what dinner tasted like or to
54:46
kill members of your family potter
54:48
familia was a real thing in the roman
54:51
empire accepted
54:52
and of course we've come
54:55
2000 years from there and have a
54:58
different
54:59
perspective and that's why we must have
55:01
this kind of perspective when we think
55:02
about the scriptures
55:04
yeah i mean it's worth noting that
55:06
nobody reads the bible
55:07
literally nobody no matter how much you
55:09
want to say you do
55:10
yeah i mean nobody thinks god is a
55:13
chicken
55:14
when in the psalms it says that god
55:15
spreads his wings out of his chicks you
55:17
know
55:18
nobody nobody i mean no christian i know
55:22
avoids wearing mixed fabrics right when
55:25
when that injunction is in the same
55:27
chapter as
55:28
the injunction against homosexual sexual
55:31
activity
55:32
right i mean there's all sorts of
55:34
examples like that where
55:35
at the end of the day it makes you
55:36
wonder okay we're picking and choosing
55:38
here what is the basis
55:40
that we're using for the passages that
55:43
we
55:44
choose to take literally and the
55:45
passages that we don't
55:47
and the feminist theological answer has
55:49
been well it's the
55:50
power dynamics you you take the passages
55:54
literally that
55:55
that prop up the social power that you
55:57
hold
55:58
that maintain the status quo and you
56:00
ignore the passages that don't
56:02
that's how we choose that's our
56:03
hermeneutic it's not mysterious
56:05
and i'm i'm i've had all sorts of space
56:07
for that and for me
56:09
like i said last time my method would be
56:11
the cruciform
56:13
hermeneutic of does this wash with a
56:17
god who is hung on a cross and slowly
56:20
suffocated
56:22
for the sake of saving sinful humanity
56:24
that doesn't that wants to flip him off
56:26
and crucify him
56:27
if that doesn't wash with that god then
56:29
we've got to ask some questions and
56:30
we've got to be a little uncomfortable
56:32
because
56:32
the writers of the scriptures themselves
56:34
seem to say that the fullest expression
56:36
of who god is in the fullest revelation
56:38
of who god is
56:39
is christ on the cross this says
56:41
something about who our god is
56:43
and we have to be able to see all of
56:45
scriptures through that cruciform
56:47
hermeneutic otherwise we get into
56:49
trouble we just
56:50
easily get into trouble and have to jump
56:52
through all sorts of
56:53
theological hoops to to wash that stuff
56:56
and again it's not to say that there's
56:58
no authority in the bible it's just to
57:00
say
57:01
let's have a mature nuanced approach to
57:04
the way we approach scripture
57:05
and we just do what jesus says which is
57:08
the entire
57:08
law all all of them
57:13
boils down to love god with all your
57:14
heart soul mind and strength and love
57:16
your neighbor as yourself
57:17
and then go read about when the people
57:19
said well who is my neighbor
57:20
and read the story that jesus told
57:22
that's kind of what jesus said
57:24
it all boils down to so kyle we've been
57:28
we've been highlighting these issues in
57:30
the bible
57:32
and i hope not doing so to bash the
57:34
bible but just to give people permission
57:36
to to be confronted by them to to to
57:40
raise their voices to say it out loud
57:42
but can we
57:43
just talk a little bit about what we
57:44
love about the bible
57:46
and here i'll let you go first
57:49
sure my answer is fairly simple i
57:54
love the ethics of jesus
57:57
i love the idea of
58:02
and i love it in a kind of conflicted
58:04
way because i find it very difficult
58:06
to apply it's consistently challenging
58:08
to me oh my gosh
58:09
one of the things i love about it but i
58:11
mean the idea of turning the other cheek
58:13
the idea of loving your enemy
58:15
it sets a bar that to me
58:19
is an irrational bar unless there's
58:21
something true to it
58:23
it's i mean it just doesn't make sense
58:26
uh unless it's revealing some deep fact
58:28
about the world
58:30
and in my experience when i actually am
58:32
able to practice that which is
58:34
few and far between but when i am able
58:36
to successfully practice it i see
58:38
results
58:39
i see that the world kind of does work
58:42
like that that's
58:43
absolutely right the i mean what was it
58:46
martin luther king jr said i'm going to
58:47
butcher this but something like
58:49
you can change anybody's mind with
58:53
consistent challenging
58:57
love and attention
59:00
like given long enough humans succumb to
59:04
that
59:05
they succumb to being loved well into
59:08
being sacrificed for
59:10
and that matches my experience and jesus
59:11
seemed to see that more clearly and more
59:14
purely than most other
59:17
contemplatives yeah and then of course
59:20
he's he's
59:21
made some pretty theologically
59:23
significant claims about himself
59:26
so i accept on faith that that is what
59:29
the world is really like and then i try
59:31
to
59:32
i try to put it into practice and when i
59:34
do i see results
59:36
and i mean it captures my imagination
59:38
it's like if the world really could be
59:40
like that you know
59:42
yep what can we do to make it like that
59:44
even if it's false you know
59:46
we could pretend that it's true and make
59:48
the world like that and how much better
59:49
would that be
59:51
i don't think it is false but even if it
59:52
were it would still be a goal worth
59:54
pursuing
59:55
my love for the bible is multifaceted so
59:57
and i don't say that to make myself
59:59
sound pious or
60:00
having a high view of scripture this is
60:01
just the truth i love the fact that
60:03
as we talked about in last episode that
60:05
the bible is an ancient library of 66
60:07
books written by
60:09
you know dozens of authors over the
60:11
course of one and a half millennia
60:13
but there's one common motif there's one
60:15
common theme throughout the whole thing
60:17
and that is that there
60:18
this god of creation wants a people for
60:20
himself
60:21
and wants to wants to share that love
60:24
that this god
60:25
shares that's a captivating story and
60:27
it's that's the inspiration to me
60:30
that's the miracle of the scriptures to
60:32
me that
60:33
you have all this stuff and all these
60:35
different stories and all these
60:36
different histories and all these
60:37
different cultures and all these
60:38
different people
60:40
but it still boils down to this one
60:42
story this one narrative
60:44
that to me is a miracle literally
60:47
and then i'm i've been recently
60:50
fascinated by the facts in the reality
60:52
that the bible is
60:53
is a book that's been written is a
60:55
library of books that's been written by
60:56
marginalized people
60:58
we don't get this often in in america
61:01
but
61:02
the israelites were marginalized
61:03
oppressed people for a vast majority of
61:06
their history and their
61:08
their reality they were enslaved they
61:11
were oppressed
61:12
they were tossed to the side they were
61:15
thrown into captivity there's all sorts
61:17
of things to their history and then
61:19
you look at the early church which was a
61:21
very marginalized and oppressed people
61:23
group who had to hide
61:24
and had to had to hide the fact that
61:26
they were worshiping this jesus even
61:28
though they would never do it they had
61:29
to
61:30
they were persecuted and martyred and
61:32
and seen as
61:33
outcasts the bible is written
61:36
through the perspective of a
61:37
marginalized people which to me
61:39
makes sense that it's so hard for
61:41
americans to grasp
61:42
the bible it's actually really really
61:45
hard for us
61:46
as people who of privilege say what you
61:49
want about that word but
61:50
americans are the epitome of power
61:54
americans are the epitome of privilege
61:56
americans are the epitome
61:58
of of comfort whether you like to admit
62:00
it or not
62:01
let's just be honest and that means that
62:03
it's really hard for us to grasp
62:05
a story that's written to and for and by
62:08
a marginalized people and so that just
62:10
makes me want to unpack it all the more
62:12
makes me want to unpack my filters
62:16
as this powerful empire we're reading it
62:19
through the eyes of the roman empire
62:21
rather than through the eyes of the
62:22
early church do you know what i'm
62:23
talking about
62:25
so yeah that to me is fascinating and
62:28
that to me actually requires some
62:30
attention for us to how do we read this
62:31
as a marginalized people group how do we
62:33
read this
62:34
as an oppressed people group because we
62:36
might not actually get it
62:38
unless we get that hermeneutic and then
62:41
yeah the ultimate reason why i love the
62:43
scriptures is because that's where i
62:44
find jesus
62:45
it's just plain and simple jesus
62:49
as you said kyle makes sense of all
62:52
the questions to me jesus raises all
62:55
sorts of new questions for me
62:57
i'm enthralled and captivated by this
62:59
this man jesus
63:01
and i'm proud to to be part of a faith
63:04
that
63:05
follows the way of jesus i just am
63:08
like it's i wouldn't want to give my
63:10
life to any other way
63:12
besides the jesus way and i find that
63:15
way
63:15
in the scriptures and for that i'll
63:17
never give up on them
63:22
well we find ourselves now at the end of
63:23
a robust two-part discussion
63:25
on the bible and there's so much more
63:27
ground that we could have covered
63:29
actually we did cover it there's 30
63:31
minutes that we just had to chop off the
63:32
end of this episode for time's sake
63:35
discussion and some debate on topics
63:37
spanning from our hermeneutics to the
63:38
lenses with which we approach the
63:40
scriptures and we're going to make that
63:41
bonus content available
63:43
for supporters at any level over on
63:45
patreon.com
63:47
a pastor and a philosopher so head over
63:49
there if you're interested in hearing
63:50
more
63:53
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63:54
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63:56
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64:01
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64:02
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64:05
thanks again for listening until next
64:06
time this has been a pastor and a
64:08
philosopher
64:09
walk into a bar
