Leaving Religion. Our stories of why we left.

Have you left the religion you grew up in? Have you had family that has left? In episode 5 Val & I share our stories of leaving the religion (Mormonism) of our childhood and the religion we chose for most of our lives. Why we left, how we navigated the transitions and sharing what helped us through it.

We are in a huge period of change right now. Are you feeling this energy?

One of pieces of advice we suggest, for those listeners that are leaving or have left, is to be soft with yourself and realize that you are unraveling programs that you practiced for as long as you were in your religion.

Our ask in this episode is: What is your WHY for what you do every day? Do you even know your why? When you know your why, then your choice becomes a conscious choice.

REFRENCES:

Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself -Joe Dispenza.

"If how we see, truly see, is not with eyesight, but with a vision, a form of spiritual perception that allows us to know what's real, what's lasting, what's actually true, if this comes from within us; then no one has power over us."
Page xiv Mary Magdalene Revealed - Meggan Watterson

Transcript

spk_0:   0:01
This is Inanda Joy and I'm Valerie. And we welcome you to the practice of living from your heart while finding oneness and duality.  Good morning. Here we are. Podcast number five.

spk_1:   0:24
Look at us. Yeah, Staying alive. Number five. I've been

spk_0:   0:28
seeing lots of fives lately. Me to actually do you? Did you see Elizabeth April's post on numbers? Yes,

spk_1:   0:35
I loved it. It was on instagram. Did you? Yeah, frequencies of each number. Yeah, in fact. Ah, what day was it? Friday. Maybe I listen to Dannielle Page's, new moon meditation that she had on instagram. Was it good? It was really good. I really liked it. And then, um as I turned it off and looked at my phone, the number was 555

spk_0:   1:03
I was like, Oh, do you look at what that is?

spk_1:   1:05
Yeah. It's like changes coming. It's also a divine number at sensual, which is perfect because we have the new moon and tourists. Which tourists is a very earthy, sensual sign. But it's change is coming, so embrace, change, embrace let it flow through you and let your body because your body is the central aspect of you. It's your senses. Let your body guide you in that navigating. Yeah, so I thought was awesome.

spk_0:   1:31
So cool. I like every time I see numbers or patterns or the sin Chris cities. For me, it's always a reminder of Okay. It's like it's like the angels are kind of talking to you or your spirit guides. And then it's just it's like this little nudge of Yep. Keep going, Keep going. We're here.

spk_1:   1:49
So what numbers have you been seeing?

spk_0:   1:52
I see 9 11 a lot. I've seen that for years. But it will come and go and remember for seeing it. Actually, in Maui we were doing, I think is one of our photo shoots we were doing out there. Or it was one of our friend trips that he was a photo shoot. I don't remember. And it was right after 9 11 had happened. And I'm like, FAQ This means something really bad is gonna happen. And but it's not what 9 11 means And no, of course I can't remember what 9 11 means, but it's a really positive. Well, nine is

spk_1:   2:21
endings, right? That's what night Because you have a lot of nine energy.

spk_0:   2:25
Yeah, numeral I am a 45 9 Yeah, well, re warp plus five is the nine,

spk_1:   2:31
Right? So you have the life path number, which is the 45 then you have I can't remember the 2nd 1

spk_0:   2:38
Well, that's so 45 is Adds tonight. Yeah, I get that. I'm like, what are you Because you have so much knowledge. So I'm always like, Wait, what away? Not No, I actually just ordered a book on numerology because they feel like I used to know some of the things and now I don't know a lot of it. So I'm like, Where's my The Beginner Guide for Dummies? Urology. I need the reader's Digest version. You can read something and, like, Oh, Dada, Dada, Dada. Like, I got to read that three times to get it to grain in my brain.

spk_1:   3:07
It same for me. And if it's something I'm interested in, it sticks better. And there's so much for me to learn. Like I would not sit here saying I'm a numerologist.

spk_0:   3:17
No, but you have a lot of knowledge about a lot of

spk_1:   3:20
things. Well, thank you. It's probably because I'm a gem and I just nine thrives off of knowledge.

spk_0:   3:25
Yes, they're like the Google. When I was doing my astrology classes with Daniel Page. That's one of the things she's like. They're like the Google. They can just be like, Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like typing and something to Google.

spk_1:   3:35
Well, how's your week, Ben? I feel like I've Well, I've been in California, but I feel like we haven't, like, connected much, Ben.

spk_0:   3:43
Think because we have our podcast, we wait to talk more. Yeah, because we want to save it. Extreme of consciousness. A part of me misses air like Marco's that we do all the time. Yeah, and then I'm But I love I get super excited to record. Yeah, me too. My big My week has been really good last week. The last few weeks, I think you and I were both in it, and I know for me, though I was in it. And then something switched for me this week where I feel like so I could breathe again. So that's been

spk_1:   4:14
That's been really good. What about you? Yeah, it was an interesting week. I was on a roller coaster. Some days were great. Some days not so good. Yeah, you know. But that's life And the new moon. I feel like the new moon was a lot of powerful, stirring up energy things to be let go. And really, the new moon is an opportunity to put your creation in tow form basically to put it out in the universe you invited in. So I always love that practice.

spk_0:   4:44
So in one of our podcasts, we had talked about talking about boundaries. And I know I've personally had a few people that are really excited. Teoh, here are our experiences on that. And I felt that for me, part of my journey with boundaries has actually been first stemmed from leaving religion. And so we talked about talking about that during this podcast. Sure are you game? I'm game. Are you sure? My boundaries. Air saying yes. That's you? Yeah, for sure. So

spk_1:   5:17
where do you want to start with that? What's the

spk_0:   5:20
Well, everybody has their story with leaving, right? The question is, do you want to start or do you want me to start? I'm gonna let

spk_1:   5:26
you choose. You're so kind. Okay, you go because you were really drawn t talking about this today. So,

spk_0:   5:35
yeah, it felt really good for me. And I feel like you have in your like, Yeah,

spk_1:   5:39
well, it's been a long time for me. It's been over 10 years. Um and okay, here. I'm starting, I guess. Yeah. When you when you grow up in a paradigm such as a religion and it's Mormon, we both grew up Mormon. It is like when you're born into it, it is your entire world for me. Anyway, everything had to fit into that paradigm. Like that container, that container writing. So everything made sense through the doctrine of the church. And if it didn't make sense, you just shelve it away, right? Oh, someday that'll make sense. I have faith or trust, or REIT, which ends up being a lot of cognitive dissidents. And I'm in such a different paradigm now that it almost it is a different lifetime. I was so different as a Mormon than I am now, and I feel like they're both authentic because it's what I lived for 36 years of my life and I was devout. I was all in. I was you know, in leadership. And I was in the temple at least once a month, and I was completely in that program. And then I wasn't. And coming out of that, you can describe it may be, is how the whole Chris Chris Elice with the Yeah, and then you come out and you're like, Okay, how do we make sense of the world now? Because the the thing that I used to make sense of the world is no longer my paradigm. And

spk_0:   7:22
so it is a re burst

spk_1:   7:23
like you have to figure out how you make sense of things, and that's actually scary and overwhelming and raise, especially when it is so entrenched in fear. And But I feel like the three things were fear, shame and control. Like, um, actually, there's one more, but it's not coming right now. That's how your controlled through the religion is through fear, shame and

spk_0:   7:49
guilt, Guilt, guilt and shame go hand in

spk_1:   7:52
hand, and all of sudden, you like, Oh, I get to make my own rules like I get to decide what's true for me. I get to create my own paradigm, and it's really easy to and I did to step into other systems and kind of use it as a religious, um, substitute. You can become really a religious and another thing, because you are grasping onto whatever you can to make sense of the world. And so, like, we've talked about the swinging of the pendulum. I feel like a lot of people do that and you can get depending on what brings you out of religion. You can get really angry because you feel manipulated. You feel like you've been lied to you feel like things have been misrepresented. At least I did. So you've been swinging on this other side where you're just angry and you're hating everything about it and everyone in it and then maybe swing back the other way, and then you somehow over the time, find your center. We thought spend my experience.

spk_0:   8:52
How many lifetimes do you think? How many rebirths have you had since you left? If you had to say in number

spk_1:   8:58
Oh, geez. Four. Yeah, maybe five. For sure.

spk_0:   9:04
So you left. How long ago? It's been over 10 years. Why did you? I mean, you said that you were really in it. So what was your thing of like, I can't do this anymore. Well,

spk_1:   9:16
actually, it came from I'm divorced now, but at the time I was married and it came from my husband from the time who He's an avid researcher and he always had issues with some of the doctrine in the church. Always like some things just didn't die with him. He didn't love the temple. He would hear things and go That just doesn't feel right. And for me, as a devout Mormon always just felt like he was not faithful enough or he wasn't. You know, it's all that not

spk_0:   9:45
annoying all the things. Yeah, not

spk_1:   9:47
enough If you just go the temple more if you just, you know, have more heart. Like if you just invest more. But with him, it just it wasn't mashing. And so because he's a researcher, he loves to research. He just started doing research at night. What I had always, you know, fall asleep and he couldn't sleep. So he just start researching, compiled enough information to write 80 page paper.

spk_0:   10:12
Don't even pages. Yeah, and it's

spk_1:   10:14
kind of like if you've read the C s letter, it's a lot of the same information, but it's all doctrine based, and it's all from church produced materials, which I think is really important. He wasn't out there looking to discredit the church. He was looking Teoh actually find peace in that faith and everything he started researching just started unraveling. So he wrote this 80 page paper to get out of his head onto paper. And then he wrote a little 34 page addendum, and he was really worried I was gonna leave him because he was at a point where he's like, I can't be out of alignment with what feels true. So his little three page paper said, Um, I'll go and support you. I'll go to be for the family, But I'm gonna pick and choose what feels like truth to me and what I can live. And so we have five kids. We had just baptized our fourth child, and he handed me this paper and he said, Just read the addendum. Don't read the 80 page paper cause I don't know that you can handle it. So,

spk_0:   11:22
of course, who's not going to read the fucking 80 page like, oh,

spk_1:   11:27
also you anyway? So I read it, and it was so well written and so well documented and it was unbiased. It was just fax that I said, I can't go back because that's who I am, right? I'm at bad time. I was very black and white. I probably I'm still pretty black and white, But I tried to find more of the fluidity in the great um, and so my kids were like, we would, you know, because we sat him down and we said, We're not going to church anymore And they're like we would And that began the process. And that's when the world like the only thing I could describe it as the world fell from underneath my feet. And then I was. Thankfully, I had a really good friend, a dear friend who had left a year before, and I reached out to her and she helped, pointing to books and Teoh like just. She was a good navigator for me until I found my footing. And then I started figuring out my spiritual beliefs and my practice, so that was helpful. If

spk_0:   12:27
you had to give, like the Reader's Digest of when you Left and you know you have to start reading books and started finding What was your truth? What would you say that process looked like? Like, how did your we talked about? You know, the pen. I think you talked about the pendulum. Like what did that. What did that look like for you? Um

spk_1:   12:49
Well, I'm an avid reader, right? And so I just started delving into spiritually because I'm I'm a very spiritual person. And I think I realized I was really good at being religious, But I wasn't feeling a lot of spiritual connection in the church for a long time. So for my ex, his for him, it was the doctrine. For me, it was the lack of spiritual connection, and the doctrine just kind of gave me the permission to finally step away from something that wasn't resonated resonating in me. Um, you know, I was in the Young Women program, which is girls from 12 to 18 for most of my adult life. And I got to a point where he couldn't teach the lessons because they just did not resonate his truth. And I felt they were manipulative. And I felt like there were these little hidden messages that were not affirming to girls. And so I would kind of just bring always bring it back to love, cause that's something I can trust and believe in. Um, So the question was, when you left the what the process was for me, it was a lot of reading. Neale Donald Walsh was a huge asset for me to read his books. The first when I read his conversations with God and that gave me a lot of peace because there's so much fear built into religion that if you leave like even we officially left, we took our names off the records. The letter we got back from the church was so fear based about we admonish you to reconsider because you're losing your eternal family. You know, you're all your blessings will be lost. You're gonna be who knows like it was. So fear based and so really working through that fear that is held in your body on such a deep level like

spk_0:   14:35
well, it's programmed in It comes from your family. The lineage of the

spk_1:   14:39
name and the underlining of the doctrine is very fear based. Yes, there's some beautiful pieces and I want to say that there are some beautiful truce in it, and I feel at its core it's fear based on, um so have processing through letting go of that fear in my body, like even just And I lived in a Alpine Utah, which is this weird microcosm in Utah, and so even just giving myself permission to wear a tank top in public, you would think I was walking around naked, right? Or having a glass of wine with my dad sitting next to me. You would think I had a smoking gun in my hand and I just murdered someone like it was all of that.

spk_0:   15:28
So just for anyone who's listening, who doesn't know Mormonism? Mormons have guard. They were garments. When they go through their temple, it's part of they call it an endowment session. That is a symbolism of their religious beliefs, and so you cannot show your shoulders. So when Val talks about wearing a tank, you know she's not wearing garments right, and a lot of people in this area will do literal garment checks. When you are Mormon and you know this person from seeing him at church and wait a minute, it doesn't look like they're wearing garments. So then it kind of creates this little bit gossip and drama. Something with no drinking, no alcohol, obviously no drinking, no smoking, no coffee, no sex before marriage, no coffee, that kind of thing. I just want to provide Yeah,

spk_1:   16:12
contacts. Better for sure. Yeah. So it was giving myself a lot of permission to start being authentic because there were so many years. I was just in the program, right? And I checked my authenticity at the door. Right. And I was playing the part, if you will. I was really good at playing the part. I was really good at checking the boxes. I was really good at doing all those things that you're required to dio. But there was no do send it for me, you know, It just never and maybe I can't say never. There were times, actually. There are times in the temple. It was pretty powerful for Yeah, absolutely. Um but as I got older and I don't know, when you get older, you just You give yourself permission to beam or in your own skin that I think when you're younger, um, so it's just more giving myself permission. And I had to keep telling myself the more I give myself permission to be in my own skin and live authentically, the more I'm giving other people that permission. Yeah, And that came from a good friend as well. That told me that, um, you know, as you live your truth, you're giving other people permission toe live. There's Yeah, And I feel like that's true across the board, whether or not your religious or you're not, you know,

spk_0:   17:31
whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

spk_1:   17:33
Yeah, for sure. So, anyway, how about you, Amanda?

spk_0:   17:40
Um, I left eight years ago. You and I. Actually, we've known each other for how long?

spk_1:   17:47
I was trying to think about that. I was still married.

spk_0:   17:50
It was It's got to be a least 10 years because we met through mutual friends John and Heidi. That's how we met. And that was when I was married and you were married. But

spk_1:   18:00
I think I I think I met you after we left the Mormon religion and you came to my yoga class in Alpine. I think we had already left and you guys were kind of in the process because you remember you were saying you're going on the cruise to remember that

spk_0:   18:14
this was probably towards the end of my marriage than with my first husband, cause I what was funny with my story? So it's 2012 which was For most people, 2012 was a really big year. It was one of those years that just kind of brings a lot of things up to the surface to look at, and then you could decide what to do with. And so I got divorced from my my husband of 11 years. That's the father of my Children and left Mormonism at the same time. And like you, I grew. I grew up in Orem, Utah, which is like talk about the bubble of Mormonism. That's the That's the bubble. Where did you grow up?

spk_1:   18:48
I grew up in Salt Lake, but I've been in Utah County since college. I went toe BYU. So I've been here a long time.

spk_0:   18:54
Yeah, I remember as a kid like my mom was a relief society president and so they would have relief study. President is ah, woman who's over. The women, essentially in the church congregation and her presence. He would come over and they would have meetings, and I would observe some of the conversations they would have. And I remember even at a young age going, I remember them talking negatively about a younger girl who had gotten pregnant and they were so negative about her and gossipy. And I I remember then thinking this isn't this isn't OK, but I did. I played the part because it's your family's religion. It's what you're ingrained in its what and the community to was just part of it. So I kind of dabbled. I dabbled, stepping out of it when I was around 19 and that's when I was labeled bipolar. That's when I was labeled with some of these things. So I stepped back into it around then, and I remember sitting there feeling like didn't I didn't feel good there and my family, my mother. I believe it was my mom. There was people that would tell me Well, it's because you are carrying guilt for the sins that you've committed. This is why you feel uncomfortable here, and I bought into it because of the time I'm like God, I guess I don't know I'm not happy. Evidently something's wrong with me mentally, you know, all the all the things. So I did when I married my my first husband, some funny that I have to say first husband anyway. But I married my first husband. I stepped back into Mormonism and I did all the things for a long time, and I was very Mormon to the point to where my non Mormon friends it would be like Overall, you know, I'll bring you over to the fold because that's what Mormons do. Is there their whole paradigm and their mental perception of this world is to bring everyone to the fullness of the truth and the Onley religion that has the complete fullness is the Mormon religion, and they're so ingrained in it. And I was, too, and I remember I can I can still remember having that lens and so it makes stepping out of it and seeing other people a little bit softer, cause I remember being in and so I don't blame them. Sometimes I dio, but I don't blame them for choosing. I understand why they're choosing what they're choosing. I chose it, but eso I did all the things and I was and I shut off. Really? What I did is I shut off a lot of me to step into that. And like you, I was in the young women's. And then, um, I would talk gospel doctor and which is a Sunday school for adults. And here's me, me who? We were one of the youngest couples in this ward in our church congregation. I believe I was pregnant at the time, and I had never gone to seminary and institute. I never did any of that because I always felt like some. Why would I go take a class on religion and be graded on it like that? That didn't resonate. So I feel like I've always had a little bit of this, you know, something felt off, but yet it was still such a part of the system that I grew up in, and the system that I was living in in Utah, I didn't move away for a while because I vowed, I'm like, I'm not raising my Children here and and then I end up coming back. But as I was waking up into stepping out of Ah, my marriage I started waking up more and more to my truth and my voice again. And in that I started practicing. I was learning Ray Key, actually, So I was starting to come more into the When you talk about that spiritual side is coming more into that part of me that feels so at home. And as I started doing that, I noticed I didn't have. I've never been one that needed to know all the things. Like when you're talking about your ex husband, how he wasn't, you know, the doctor and I didn't need to know that. And I it was there as an experience. It was something that in a lot of ways I did enjoy and I loved. And in other ways I never identified with the crucifix ation. I never identified with this Jesus that was taught or even God. I never really had a strong really ship with either. I never read the Book of Mormon all the way through because that's what they're you know. The Book of Mormon is kind of the crux of the religion. So here I am, teaching gospel doctrine. And what I love, though, is it showed me how much I love to teach and that I'm good at it. And even these adult people that were 20 years older than I was like they really loved my lessons. And and as I'm continued to wake up, I was teaching. I really had never had thoughts about leaving. It was just what was at the time, and I was going through so many other things, like going through my divorce, ending the family. You know, that's a big, big upheaval as it is. Yes. So it didn't even enter my mind that maybe I wanted to step out of this religion, too. And I'm teaching a lesson and I go to bear my testimony and testimony for all of you are listening is just really you're burying your testimony of what you believe is true and the in this religion that your a part of, and it's part of tradition that you do it at the end of every lesson. So I go to bear my testimony, and I all of a sudden everything is blank, and I like holy shit and the only thing I could bear my testimony in, and the only thing I knew similar to you was 11 light and I bore my testimony in that and right after and it was just sing Chris. It was synchronicity. I was released from that calling and I had been in that for three years. Anyway, I in that moment that when I was wearing my testimony, I'm like, Holy shit, I'm done. And I could feel this something inside me, knowing I was going to something more. And this is my in context of what that that look like. But, you know, I accept out of that and then my mother, who religion brings her a lot of peace and a lot of joy in her life and a lot of answers. She it was really hard to hear. I was the 1st 1 in my family to step out of the content of this construct. And so she asked me one day she was very much a temple like the temple was her. Like if she was struggling, she went to the temple and I Yeah, one day she asked me if I go to the temple with her and this was after I had I had stopped wearing my garments and like you know what I will. I'll go and I'll go with an open mind. I'll put my garments back on. You know, this is a big decision to step out of this religion. So I did, and I went with an open mind and sat there really, really as clear of a container as I could have it with just being an observation of Is this true or not? And I think this is probably the first in my life where I really, really stepped in such a new neutral space to really ask if this resonated and if this was part of my truth, and in the endowment session you go in, women sit on one side, men's it on another, and at one point they call up on people to come up and do the prayer circle. And it's always a man and a woman, and they do the different science and things. And they asked the women to veil their faces. I've heard they normal longer do this anyway, but it is despite earlier doesn't matter. But at the time the women are wearing bells and they asked, the women develop their faces and I ever their cover their face. Yes. So I've l my face. And again in that moment I'm like, Holy shit, I'm in a cult looking up at this thing. And what was interesting is my mom, actually who I love her dearly. And she has her belief system, and I have mine, and we have mutual respect for it. But she also has a lot of gifts. And she knew she knew, Even though I didn't need to say anything, she knew I was done. So in that, you know, it was definitely I chose out we stopped going and, you know, for a little while it was more. Maybe I'll still go for my kids and it was like, No, I can't do this anymore. It feels fake. Like there's something about it that doesn't feel real and authentic to me anymore. And as I went through my process, I remember it was probably about a year later, my God died. And that was like a holy fund where the world like you talked about the the ground beneath your feet. Just sort the raw getting pulled out from beneath you. I mean, I remember just looking outside. I've had depression and things of depression, but this was a whole other layer of not only depression but identity. And like how you the lens that I had is gone, and it's like everything just is dark and dreary and you don't know what is like, What's right, what's left, What's up. What's down they get is a very challenging place to be in. And yet it was just part of process like you're talking about. Most people will swing. I don't feel like I swung a ton in the beginning and actually for several years my transition was pretty, um, non Kate like I didn't have a lot of anger, and I think it's because they didn't buy into a lot of this stuff to begin with, right, Although I will say about a year ago, which was comical to me. There was this huge surge of anger around the feminine aspect of the Mormon religion and the patriarchy that I think is I've done my own personal work around my family DNA and healing some of that. That has always been a theme, and I do want to also for those I feel like one of the things that was really fascinating for me to witnesses, as I have done my healing, my clearing, my whatever you wanna call it of my process of leaving. Remember doing a Chamonix session and there was binding in contracts. But not only that, but in the temple work that is done, it literally binds you. It energetically binds you. So in Lulea, in some ways I'm like Holy fuck leg. And the people that started this religion were pretty brilliant. Now, do I believe that it probably started from a heart centred place? Yes. Do you think that has changed over the years? 100%? Do we think it is very Mel masculine dominated of Here's the truth. We know the truth and you need toe. I I want to say obey because there is an element of that. I don't, you know, like,

spk_1:   28:46
well, that's what you're promising to do in the temple. And when you take the sacrament and when you in every aspect of it, is to obey. In fact, one of the really big pieces for me that took me a while to wrap my head around is in the temple. And I don't feel like I need to get into particulars because I have family that still believe in the Mormon church and a sacred to them. And because of my love for them, I want to respect that. But there is a part in the temple where the women promise about will obey their husbands, and the husband makes their promise directly to God. And I was like, Do you remember why? Wait, What? Well, yeah, because Ive had beguiled Adam by giving him the fruit of the knowledge, the tree from knowledge of good and evil, right? So in penance for that now she's no longer sovereign being.

spk_0:   29:49
She's a center, she's a center,

spk_1:   29:51
and she she beguiled or tempted her husband. And so now she is directly agreeing to obey

spk_0:   30:00
her husband because I no longer has the permission to commune directly with God, right? Only her husband?

spk_1:   30:07
Well, yes, And as she's obeying her husband, she he then becomes the mouthpiece for God. But can you tell me how many problems there with

spk_0:   30:17
that? So I had a conversation with my mother pretty recently about something else, and she said that that something pink for her, and it really bothered her, um, anyway. And she's like, Yeah, they changed that part in the temple to and to me. I see it as I understand that this religion may have had a construct of starting from somewhere that was heart centered, but it is morphed into where it is now, which I believe very strongly is a business. Yes, they look at their numbers. They have 10% tithing. I cannot tell you how much money I personally donated. That just makes me sick to this day. Well, and you can't go to

spk_1:   30:53
the temple without paying tithing. Right? So basically, you're paying your way in.

spk_0:   30:57
Yes, but when you're in it, you don't see it that way because you're so this is your faith, your religion, and stepping out of it takes a lot of courage and you bump up against things that you once believed in and family. And who knows? You know what it is? I I you and I were just talking about this and I felt like I'm like, Oh, I want to read this part. It's Mary Magdalene revealed by Megan Watterson. And she says this in this book. It how we how we see truly see is not with eyesight, but with a vision, a form of spirituals, perception that allows us to know what's riel, what's lasting, what's actually true. If this comes from within us, then no one has power over us. Yes, and that I feel like has been both Your my I think were very similar. And anybody who really chooses to step out of religion is choosing to step out of somebody telling me what I should and shouldn't do. What I shouldn't shouldn't believe who God is, what he looks like, etcetera. And, um, I just realized I didn't turn my phone on airplane mode and says something just happened. So the video stuff Fuck, Well, we

spk_1:   32:07
can pause real quick. We're gonna pick up.

spk_0:   32:10
I don't know. Where were we just talking? We're talking about Oh, the patriarchy, right? Oh, business. We're talking about

spk_1:   32:17
that. It's a business. You read your quote?

spk_0:   32:22
Yeah. So I had about a year ago, like this anger surface of the suppression. And I think, you know, as we as we go through the different healing and actually going more in words, I was reading something to that talked about how ascension isn't climbing this ladder or doing all the things. It's going inward. It's going further in. And as I've done that and cleared layers, I feel like allowed for me to really look at this piece of sitting in front of me of fuck how many times that I suppress my voice Or did I not feel like I was accepted and loved and appreciated for who I who I waas and and I could see that a lot of that is because the construct of this religion that my whole family grew up in and it was just part of it was part of what they knew, and so on that that aspect you give it some peace or some solace or you have some solace. And on the other side, it's like, Fuck this. Why is this OK? Why is it okay to treat women less than why is it okay to be upset if a woman wants to speak and and share her voice and her truth, and you know what? What the fuck are you so scared of? Then you would have to create religion. Go hide Mary Magdalene and these different women that were strong even back then. What are you so scared of and anyway, so that anger definitely came up. But outside of that, I haven't had a whole lot of anger and and more love and compassion. Although I do think I'm gonna write a book about leaving

spk_1:   33:51
and we'll see who knows? Yeah, for me. It was always when anything would come up in the religion that didn't resonate with me. It was always there's something wrong with me. So then I am questioning my internal voice, my compass as wrong because it's not in alignment with the structure I'm living in. So there's nothing wrong with the structure. It must be me. And I believe that's built into the religion. I agree, and you can't see it when you're in it. You just can't. I

spk_0:   34:24
cannot see the forest for the trees.

spk_1:   34:25
No, And it was the same thing. If I just read my scriptures more if I just more faithful if I just go the temple more often. If I just do this, then maybe it'll make more sense in my body

spk_0:   34:36
or when horrible things happen to you. What are you doing that That you're a center or your that you called this on yourself. The worst part? Yeah, that was judgment. Yeah, the, uh, on, I think, for any of my what would you share for someone who is Lee leaving or someone who's listening to this? Who is thinking about leaving and what advice would you give?

spk_1:   35:02
Just start trusting yourself and really trust what comes up in your body. Our bodies are That's where our wisdom lies. A teacher that I've had, she says. It's your wise dome or wisdom. Really trust your body as your compass trust. Does this feel good? And if going to church feels good and it's resonating as truth in your body, by all means do it because I feel like there's AZM Any passes, there are people, and religion can hold a very positive seeing for people, absolutely, and other people it doesn't know it doesn't. So I feel like the only way to navigate all of it is to be in your body and quit listening outside of yourself and trust what resonates is truth within and trust your slick in Mormonism. They call it the still small voice. The problem with it is it's outside of you.

spk_0:   35:59
Write everything goes

spk_1:   36:01
right. The Holy Ghost, and you only get the guidance of the Holy Ghost if you're following our commandments. That's bullshit. That's taking a truth and spinning it to keep you in. I say the still small voice is your wisdom. It's your higher self coming through your heart and is guiding you. So if it doesn't feel good, listen to it and get in your body. Allow yourself to to start recognizing how your body is feeling and that goes across the board, not just with religion that goes across the board with the government, with education, with friendships with everything you trust your body as your compass and trust that your compass is bang on.

spk_0:   36:42
Yeah, I remember it. I think I was 19 and they went on a date with a guy that I didn't know. And anyway, he takes me up to this monastery this month monastery and to listen to the monks chant, which I have never done. I didn't even know there was a monastery. I think it's up in Ogden Canyon and

spk_1:   36:58
oh yeah, they do silent retreats there. Do they had a client do a silent trios retreat?

spk_0:   37:03
I had no idea. Yeah, but we go into this place and the grounds felt wholly felt sacred. And as the monks are chanting, I I felt emotional like this beautiful like and it was similar to what I felt when I was in church. It was confusing to me of Wait a minute, I can't Why am I feeling this here? And I remember asking that question and the answer was, Well, you can see beauty and all things. It's still beautiful and and that's absolutely true. And it goes further than that. There is truth in all things, not only this 11 thing, and I feel like to, especially because of how in my experience, in being in religion and and again being in Mormon religion, you're very hard on yourself, like you're saying, If you don't do X, Y and Z, then you're not going to get whatever it is salvation. You can't go the temple if you don't abide by our rules and pay your timing. Yeah, it's a very structured and very rigid. I don't I don't give a shit who you are. It is rigid.

spk_1:   38:01
Well, that's that's patriarchy, right? Yes. That comes with any pain.

spk_0:   38:05
Drools container. Yeah, the feminine is definitely more what feels good. What flow? What's the emotion behind it? What? Yes. How does it feel? Yeah, so naturally. Leaving you're still going to carry that. I think it's important to remember that this has been something you have bought into chosen to believe and has have practiced for However many, however many years that you practiced it, it is. It is mapped in your brain. It isn't hard of your wiring, so I feel like when people choose to leave its it glitches amount. Yeah, they're still running some of these old programs, even the religions, not a part of it. The programs were still running. Why am I not good enough? What's wrong with me? Holy shit, I'm I'm now the black I've said. I've always said I'm the black sheep of my family and I used to say it with a little bit of spite to it. Now it's just it's comical to me. I am different, and now I embrace it more. But in Mormonism, the black sheep of the family was the sinner, the one who was kind of put over in the corner of we don't know what they're doing, but they're doing all these things that are not acceptable in our belief system. So I feel like that's something that's really important and giving yourself permission to allow those programs toe unwind. Yeah, again, Jodi spends, I would recommend for I don't I don't know anyone else who's really done as much work as he has with brain programming. Do you? I don't You think if there's any other reference,

spk_1:   39:27
Yeah, I don't He's definitely, I would say, the leading person. I'm sure there's been other people over the years, but he's been the one I've utilised,

spk_0:   39:38
and I I would, actually since we're talking about this. I wrote about this in my book. I You had a relationship where he was borderline personality disorder and very dramatic and traumatic. And when a remember having a moment laying in bed one night after we had parted ways and he had left, and I felt this surge of there was a chemical release in my body, and I think because I had been reading Joe dispenses work, I became aware of what is this? And I instantly had the craving for drama. I wanted it and I was like almost the fact where I was going to create it somewhere with someone. But I knew that this was I'm like, holy shit, this idea of the programs and the fact that it is releasing chemical, whatever it is endorphins, those ambulance mentors, yes, and the hormones it is. It is such a real thing. So when you stop doing it, it still releases the chemicals. It still releases the hormones until it doesn't. And so I feel like that's probably one of the first piece of advice advice I would give is. Be soft with yourself, recognize that you're going to start unraveling. And this is more than likely what it's gonna look like. And you'll have possible anger, resentment,

spk_1:   40:49
right, well, and I feel like that's That's kind of what brings up a colt is if it goes to that level, where it's almost PTSD. Yeah, when you come out, it triggers a PTSD reaction where you really are feeling in trauma in your body when you're choosing something consciously that's outside of the program you've been given. It does put you into that trauma response. Um, and that's I feel like that's a tactic of a colt So and and you have an even now, 10 years later, I've been out over 10 years. I'll have programs come up and I'll have to say OK, is that true? Or is this an old program and really work through it? Yeah. You know, like talking about unraveling where you said you lost your God. I lost God. I lost

spk_0:   41:48
Jesus. Like everything. Everything. You lost your community

spk_1:   41:53
community a real separation for my family. Because all sudden, they don't understand me. And my family doesn communicate about things. So there was never a discussion around. Why? It was like the elephant in the room. Um, and to their credit, they never, um, pushed me away. State We were never not welcome. They always invited us. And so, to their credit, there what I know people that leave religion, they'll actually get their families will just come on its own. Um, you know, and we did not have that. Um, my family was always very welcoming, but there was never a discussion around it. They didn't want to understand or ask why, or it was always just the Mormon program. If we just love them, they'll come back and we bear testimony, they'll come back. If we invite them to pray, they'll come back. If we put their name on the prayer temple, they'll come back. If we send them religious scripture or books or movies or invite him to religious things, they'll come back because they know the truth is in them. And honestly, when you're in that paradigm, you can't see outside of it. Right? And I say that because that was my experience. You cannot see outside of him, and you cannot accept any idea that it may not be true.

spk_0:   43:09
You just can't right, because it can't go there. So ingrained. It opens up a Pandora's box, though.

spk_1:   43:14
Well, yeah, if you start. If you start maybe allowing not to be true, then all. It's a slippery slope.

spk_0:   43:20
What was Ah, was it President Manz in the last prophet who said question your questions? I don't know. There was something going around because people were starting to question more. And this idea of the shelf, which I feel like is more of a recently used being. I'm just gonna put it on my shelf. But then, at what point does my shelf break and there I believe it was the last prophet who did talk. There was a thing going around with question your questions, which is like, Wait a minute, you no doubt your questions. Doubt your internal compass of saying, Hey, something doesn't resonate here and that that is a problem. You're wrong. That's that's the message if it doesn't resonate your wrong. So here's that's bullshit, and you tell how angry Abba between my finger. What's funny is I I would like to ask you this question. Okay, if you feel like people are awake enough to recognize their internal wisdom to even just a little bit, do you really feel like they would choose to stay in religion if it was just them? So I can't

spk_1:   44:19
answer that because there's 1000 different reasons to stay? Yes, you know, and I'm not here to say it's right or wrong for anyone

spk_0:   44:26
and wasn't

spk_1:   44:27
right for me, you know, And I know that's not what you're saying.

spk_0:   44:30
That's not what I was,

spk_1:   44:31
but I feel like you can consciously, to You can be awake and consciously choose to practice a religion, but I feel like you have to be more liberal in your practice of it, right?

spk_0:   44:43
Yes. And I do think though there are aspects that you have to shut off. You know, you I do not believe in my experience with knowing Mormonism the way it iss to be fully engaged in that and also fully be engaged in your own voice. Win work you couldn't know. And and that's more what I'm saying. I think

spk_1:   45:01
like I have a friend while you you know, I'm to I'm not going to say his name. Um who doesn't believe in it. But he goes to be with his family and support his wife, who still does believe in it. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know? I mean,

spk_0:   45:16
cause he's I agree with that. He's going for his

spk_1:   45:18
own reasons, and okay, that's great.

spk_0:   45:21
Yeah, And you can find truth in all things. Yeah, hold things.

spk_1:   45:24
And even just being like I do miss community since I left Mormonism. I don't have a community I the yoga world, but, um, I don't have community and I miss it. That's one of the beautiful things with Mormonism, like yesterday a friend of mine just moved and she bought a trampling from my partner and 10 men showed up to pick up that trampoline and those 10 men, or I'm sure, in her local congregation, that are showing up to help because that's what they do. And that's a beautiful. That's beautiful, right? That aspect of it, I think, is really a beautiful thing

spk_0:   46:00
on. I do feel like from people that I'm known that have left. That's probably their hardest piece is a community because, like you said, not only do you lose God, Jesus, all these things but the community and that support, especially if you don't have support out of it, that that is a very that's

spk_1:   46:17
very hard. Yeah, The other thing that was helpful for us is that friend that I mentioned earlier that had left a year earlier, she and her husband had left. They started pulling together a group of people that were all about the same age, all leaving the church about the same time. So we had a common background. We had a common experience. We were asking the same question. So we did create a community in that group of friends and that was huge. It was huge and in a way to. It was like the teenage years where you never

spk_0:   46:51
partied, you know, like,

spk_1:   46:54
Oh, I'm interested in wine. Let's let's have a wine group where we're learning about why And then it just came to Okay, this is just fun. Let's just get together and drink, you know, and celebrate friendship. So, um, but that was a really good resource toe. Have people that understood what I was going through that I could talk to about. And because then when you start question yourself, like if this crazy, you hear someone else saying the same thing that you're feeling and you go, Oh, I'm not alone in this And someone else understands what I'm going through. So you're not completely alone. I think that's really difficult for those who don't have any sense of support going through that process. I do.

spk_0:   47:38
I agree. And I as you're talking, it's like, you know what? I actually did have a really good friend at the time before even left more Mormonism that started sharing part of her story for why she left. And it did start in the back of my mind, started making me go home. Maybe so I did have some that when I said that, I didn't Really I didn't Really. It wasn't like I'm been thinking about this for a while, right? Like your ex with writing a paper. It wasn't that, but I did have. And then, um, remember, remember who said it to me at the time, But the idea of really putting anything that you're wanting to experience out into the universe, i e. I am asking for a new community to show up more. I'm asking for a like minded friend to show up and then allowing yourself almost like in my mind, I imagine it looking like a door. I'm asking this door to be open and for this to happen and come into my life. And I feel like every time I've done that, I definitely have had something in that form.

spk_1:   48:39
Yeah. Yeah, that was another huge book that helped me in that transition was the law of attraction by Abraham Hicks on. And if you if you haven't heard of the book, Abraham is a channeled group of beings through a woman named Esther Hicks and her late husband. I can't remember Jerry, Jerry, but they she primarily would channel them and talking about the law of attraction. And really, that was probably my first step into understanding my God self and how I am the ultimate creator of my experience. Um, came from that book, so that was another really powerful tool for me to navigate that really tough time. It was really tough, especially again. Another hard thing was my kids like, you know, because I lived in Alpine, Utah, and it was such a part of their social structure, like the two streets that made up our local congregation called Award. There is one family, maybe to family, that we're not all the US. No. And if you if you don't know the moment Mormon culture, if you've never been LDs, it's a different experience than if you've left the church. If you if you were LDs and then you chose not to. It's almost like a shunning happened, and that is what happened to us, their their parents in the ward that were no longer welcoming. No, they would welcome my Children to their house, but their Children were no longer welcome at my house

spk_0:   50:08
again. A lot of fear, yes,

spk_1:   50:09
so much fear and It was really hard for me because to me I'm like, I'm still the same person and I'm not, you know, And I understand the fear paradigm. Um, there was another family bless their hearts that their son was the same Age is our son that would just got baptized. And every Sunday they would call and invite him to church and his sweet, low heart. Oh, he's He's 18 now. But his sweet little heart. He had this special experience of getting baptized and he got up for his testimony. And then the next Sunday, his parents were like, We're not going to church again. He's like way, you know? And so he's trying with an eight year old brain trying to make sense of it. So he would go to church every Sunday with his family by himself, Um, bless his heart. And then one day he was just like, nope, yeah, you know, So there was space for him to figure that out on his own. And I feel like if we had stepped in and said, absolutely not his personality would have been We'll all show you. I'm gonna go to church every Sunday, and I'm gonna go on a mission. And I'm you know, I'm like, he's gonna push back, um, so allowing him the freedom to navigate it himself. Okay, if you want to go, it's all right.

spk_0:   51:30
But really, that's how we should be in general with their Children. Like what? It feels true to you. And I feel like I navigated that with that way with my kids. They were young, but then their dad, we got divorced. He became more Mormon when we got divorced, which was comical to me, but, you know, changed their own. And so the kids would go to church every Sunday with their dad. But when they were with me, we didn't. We practice other things. We practice meditation or we play with the energy balls, especially when I was really getting more into that. And now we don't have a religion. So what are we going to talk about? And I would start going more to spirituality and, um trying Think how young my kids, where I think my youngest was three. So they're pretty little similar in some ways to your kids, and my youngest was for so I would just I would posture questions to them when they did go, That's awesome. You know, What did you learn in church? And they love to share, and it's like, Oh, that's so great. And did it feel true to you? I would start asking those questions of Just because it's an adult telling you something doesn't make it true, right? And you get to class Just the question. Yeah, and you get to question you're in yourself like you're talking about at a young age. Can I teach my kids to not just go blindly and follow blindly because there's an adult telling him something? I don't care if it's church. If it's school, whatever it is, I want them to have their own internal compass. Yes, and if I can help them when they're younger in that fantastic. So can we have a different kind of spiritual practice? And in the beginning, we kind of did but really are God. In the beginning, Sundays were like holy cow we could to sleep in and we you because it used to be work. Even though it was a spiritual experience, it was still work. You gotta get ready at a certain time. Everybody needs to look just right. If you're teaching, there's a lot of stress that goes into that. So Sunday's ones never super relaxing. They were family days, which was positive, but they were. Now, you take that out and you're like, Oh, my God, I get to relax on Sundays. Yes, please. I can do whatever I want on Sundays. I can go to the lake. I can go the mountains, They can do whatever I want. Yeah, hell, yeah. And my kids, It took him several years, but they started feeling more and more uncomfortable at church. And that's all they could really say is that they just didn't like it there. And so as mean, getting being them permission to have their voice. They started getting more brave with that, with their dad and eventually to the point to where my oldest was like, Dad, I'm not going like I don't like And he pushed back for a while because again, and the when you have that hat on that, that perception of this is this is what we do because this is, you know, we do it because whatever. I'm stumbling over my words right now. It's difficult Children. Yes, it's obedience. We obey. Yeah, eso when your child who's 15 16 is saying no?

spk_1:   54:19
Yeah. In fact, one of the most disturbing primary songs I believe the primary songs are bring control is follow the profit because it's out of very young age imprinting in their

spk_0:   54:34
little he knows the way for a the profit fall, the profit He knows he won't lead you astray. He knows the way, yes. Anyway, that is one of the fasting things. When you go back, Teoh, when you've left and you've had enough space apart from it and then you step back in and you can go in with an observation mind. It is fascinating and really frustrating to go. Holy shit. I loved these hymns or I love seeing the primary songs. And you're like, What the fuck were we singing and what I buying into like you say? It's like when you're in it, you're in it. You cannot see. You cannot see outside of it,

spk_1:   55:10
Right? Right. Yeah, it was, anyway,

spk_0:   55:14
is sad in a lot of weight. It

spk_1:   55:17
is. And I guess I have been out long enough that it it was a big part of my life 36 years and I am who I am because of it. In a lot of ways, I lived a long time not being who I am. Like at my roots. I'm a heretic. I like the question. I like to push back on structure and the like. I like to push back on the box that we get stuck in. That's who I am naturally. And for so many years I didn't do that because it was part of being the good girl like that. That was my identity. Even in my family, I was the good girl. I was the good child. I had a couple sisters who were the black sheep because they were more rebellious. And so I found my identity is being the obedient child and that I lived that for a really long time. But I was so unhappy. No, you know, I was so unhappy for a really long time because it just kept. So we So we're gonna talk about but boundaries at bombed up on my boundaries of who I am. But yet it wasn't the problem of what was bumping up. It was my problem. And that's probably The biggest thing that I keep coming back to is it was I was wrong. I was wrong every time. There's something wrong with me, right? It was never question what doesn't feel right. It was like question yourself, because it doesn't feel right and I feel like that's evil.

spk_0:   56:52
That's evil. While I think that that probably is the most frustrating thing when you're dealing with a family dynamic of you stepping out of it and yet you still have a close family tie somehow, like you're saying some families cut, cut people off. I I didn't have that experience either. However, it was still it wasn't talked about. I did have one brother who jokingly made the comment that Oh, you'll be back. And I said, No, I won't. And it was this back and forth. Yes, you will know I won't. Oh, yeah, and laughing. Yes, she will. Why, why on earth do you think you won't be back? And my response was because I don't believe the God that you believe in, You know, I believe we're all God's. And at that it was like, Well, that's a really egotistical thought, isn't it? You know that was the response, and that was the extent of the conversation of why I left. There was never nobody ever asked it again. It's that fear of well, should. I don't know if I want to know because A I think you're wrong. And in my filter, like you were saying, most families will believe that they have to come back and it starts questioning their religion. My mother, I know how to go through. What does this mean? If my child is not choosing into this and now has had her records removed? Remember, the one of the lunches that we had I met her for lunch is she's like, Do you believe in God? And I said no, at least not in the way that you did it. And she cried. You know, I you're creating pain to in your family members. And so it brings up an interesting dynamic of it's almost like leaving a relationship but still having a relationship with these people and how to navigate while holding into your boundaries of OK, this isn't okay for me anymore to be living this part of me that feels like a lie and your family's holding so strongly into it in their belief system. And the irony is, now that you're out of it, you can see with the new lens and you have the lens of where you were right. You did. You were You can remember what it felt like to to be in the force, and now you're seeing it outside. And so now you have both perspectives. And instead of most people, most family members, In my opinion, they they can't a silly go and go, Oh, I if they were to say, You're right in what you're choosing to do for you, it would question their belief system and there is a whole other. I was gonna go on something. I was going to say something else, and it's completely last. I guess I'm not supposed to say it, but

spk_1:   59:18
yeah, I remember. Um, probably two years or maybe a year after we stopped going, My niece, the oldest grandchild in our family, got married in the temple and she invited us to come. They lived up in Washington, so we went up to go and we sat outside because if you're if you're not an active member of the church you don't get to go into the temple in that includes weddings. You know, some of the most important celebrations in life. You're excluded from now. And so we sat outside and it was fine. We had our kids. And of course, we're feeling like there's a loss. Yeah, you lost because you're all sudden, um, excluded from family. And when they came out from the temple after the sealing ceremony, that's what Mormons call it when they get married. There sealed together. Um, when they came out, my dad just gave me the biggest hugs and he was devastated, right? And he said, It breaks my heart that you're not in there with us because it's taught and his belief is that is the only place you could be an eternal family. So by us choosing not to participate, we are choosing out of our family. Like, to me, that is so insidious. Acute, I mean, because I don't believe that to be true and the pain, the rial pain, it causes family members when other family chooses to leave its riel. Right. And I was I cried because of hiss sadness, and I also was angry at the lie is angry at the life because I don't believe that to be true.

spk_0:   1:0:58
And there's a lot of duality. And like with what you're talking about, there's so there's such a dual last dualistic perspective there because from your perspective and I've been in the same shoes of you feel pain of the loss that you are now excluded because you're not following the rules and you're choosing out of this dogma that teaches that the whole principle on this dogma is family oriented. And that's the whole reason why we're here is to get a physical body and to be together with their families forever. And in fact, that's their cells. Pitch of this is, you know, choosing and buy into this religion, and then you'll be stilled together with your family for all eternity. And yet you're now outside of this, so you're now excluded and they feel the loss because now you've chosen out. So there's this interesting. It is in some aspects. It's really fascinating. I mean, there's so much emotion in this, and I guess my question then to you, especially if somebody's in this to last Dualistic, where have you found your center?

spk_1:   1:1:57
well, and I was I was thinking about that, Um, as we've been talking, because there is a lot of polite polarity here for me, it's it's taken a while and has been a journey, but really truly accepting that. There's a Zeman e passed to God as there are people and religion is a path, and it's not all bad. It can be. There's a lot of good people that have deep religious beliefs, and they get to live life that way. And I'm not over here saying my way is the only way. I'm saying This is what worked for me and if that works for you, that works for you, you know what I mean? So it's not an either or anymore. Like when I was in religion, I fully believed this was the only truth on my job. In that paradigm was to convince everyone of the truth of it.

spk_0:   1:2:53
What was the story if you didn't? Do you remember if you didn't, if you didn't try to convert this one purple Andy and you go on the other side beer and they look at you and they say there's a lot of emotion and manipulation

spk_1:   1:3:08
I would be your fault. Yes. Yeah, And the other manipulation is like with parents. If their Children choose not to participate, It's the parents fault. Right? Right

spk_0:   1:3:17
there. There Children are part of their identity. What did they do wrong that their child choosing their parents failed somehow. So in, in in saying this, I do feel like it's important to also recognize then families and parents who have been raised and grown up and choosing, chosen to raise their Children in this dogma. While they've been brainwashed in the religion, they're also repeating those same things to their Children. You follow me, you do what I tell you to do. Don't have your voice. Don't rush back. Don't Dada, Dada, Dada And for me, you can kind of understand you get why they're choosing to do that. That's all they know.

spk_1:   1:3:50
Yeah, well, and it's their belief. System is their job. That's what God will only accept them if they do that. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I think like for me after we left or as we were leaving, I never tried to convince my parents or my family My reasoning. I didn't need to. They were mine. I didn't need to sit there and tell them they were wrong, right? I didn't need to sit there and bring them to the light of why religion is is wrong. I never did that.

spk_0:   1:4:22
I didn't either. In some ways would be hypocritical. I feel like, Well,

spk_1:   1:4:25
I feel like when I talked about the pendulum swinging, that's what happens like you jump on the other side of the fence, so you're instead of being in the religion over here saying We're right, you're all wrong. You flip over to the other side and you're out. So I'm right and anyone who's in it is wrong.

spk_0:   1:4:40
That's what your bees I feel like, Yeah, and that a lot of

spk_1:   1:4:43
people, it's just the same thing on the different side of the fence, right? So

spk_0:   1:4:47
that's why it's hypocritical. Yeah, you're doing the same thing just in a different context exactly. And it's part of the process. Yeah, to

spk_1:   1:4:56
write it is's part of the process for some people, right? Um

spk_0:   1:5:00
because that was not my experience. So yes, for some, for some

spk_1:   1:5:03
people, for some people, and for me, it really wasn't ever about the doctrine. It really wasn't like it was nice to That was the the way out. But it wasn't my Why write my Why was it just didn't resonate his truth within me. It just didn't. But I don't need to go. Then tell my parents why it shouldn't resonate as truce for them. Yeah, because it brings them joy. It gives them community. It gives them a sense of purpose. I don't know all their reasons, but they're still active in the church. And so I don't need to sit here and judge hm or tell them they're wrong or invite them to yoga festivals Or, you know, whatever my belief system is, I don't need to do that. And I haven't I haven't ever done that, you know. So I feel like finding a place of respect for wherever anyone is and whatever they're choosing. I have a son who does black metal. He's a bass guitarist, and he does black metal and, I don't know a ton about metal. All I know is black metal is like the blackest of the metal. And his band is called Touma Belisle, which is very satanic. No, and I've gone to his concerts to support him, and to me, that's his shadow work. He's up there like he's the scream. Oh, he's screaming into the microphone, you know? And he's amazing what he does. I don't agree with all of it, But I love my son and I support him and his beliefs. And as long as he's not hurting anyone, right, I will be there 100% to support him. Yeah, no. If he starts getting into rituals that start hurting people, I won't be able to support that right. But why can't he find Hiss expression in the world that resonates his truth for him? That's how I find center is as long as you're not hurting anyone, you should be free to express yourself and your beliefs and your convictions and whatever way you want, Teoh. But if it starts hurting other people, that's where it needs to be looked at right or restricting other people. That's the other thing.

spk_0:   1:7:15
I agree with you, but I would I would. This is what gets tricky because you would have some people that would say that families who choose to raise their Children in a dogma like Mormonism or anything out anything else is is restrictive is hurting people just depending on filters?

spk_1:   1:7:34
Yes. And because I'm a big picture of person, right? Talked about this in the first episode, I really believe we choose in before we come into life. We choose in, and whatever we choose in, we choose him for our growth. So you have to get out of victim mentality, Teoh, like us asleep. You have to get out of victim mentality. I ordered to go there. And if it's part of your path, well, it must be part of your path of your living, right, you know? And when you get older, you have a choice. Uh, you have a choice.

spk_0:   1:8:09
You have a choice at any age, and that's depending on the family system. But I agree with that, and I do, especially in my experience. For a while, I it gave me solace and peace to know I chose into this box so that I would know how to break out of it and what it feels like to be out of it both in and out of it. And now, like you and I both have that that framework, that context and in our own personal practices and the people that we work with Then we can now be, you know, people that help others. Like we were helped with our you know, we can help with other people that are choosing to leave. And what the fuck do I do now? And how do I is this normal? Is this OK? Is in some aspects because of Mormonism and telling and any religion really telling you that, you know? Oh, you're good. You're like when you're wanting to be worthy. Good girl. So you got praise. You got recognition. You got attention. More than likely from being that.

spk_1:   1:9:01
And I got leadership role.

spk_0:   1:9:02
Yeah, absolutely. So stepping out of it, you almost need somebody. Still, it's almost like Okay, just tell me. Tell me I'm doing okay. Like, please, just somebody tell me that this is I'm totally not off my rocker and losing my mind. And even to this day, I still feel like I need that in part. That's just a human wiring and condition. I feel like I just

spk_1:   1:9:22
I feel like you need it until you don't. And

spk_0:   1:9:25
now you

spk_1:   1:9:25
centered in your sovereign self. It doesn't matter because your sovereign itself doesn't give a fuck with anyone else. Things

spk_0:   1:9:31
I agree. And that takes layers because I feel like I've worked through through layers of that. But I feel like, um, for me to the same thing with finding center, one of my ways of finding center has been boundaries and that I'm hopefully it'll feel good to do that next podcast. Well, and I had an intention was starting this that we wouldn't have anything really scripted or planned out. Um, but this felt to do so. I would love to talk about that next podcast. If you're game with boundaries because I feel like that's how I find my center. Whose foundries? Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mainly because there's a lot of things that won't change, and they'll never change. But the only thing that can changes us So how we re everything changes when we change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, with I remember one Sunday we do family dinners every Sunday and part of it. My dad passed away. And so it's a big My mom loves having her family together. That's her biggest gift. I feel like in this world and the thing that we can give her. And so, of course, I want to give her that. And, of course I want to show up to family dinners and and family. There is this beautiful family is beautiful. And again, here's the paradox of what am I choosing to create for my family? What example am I doing for my Children to create a context? And then here's also my extended family of my siblings and my mother. So there's a little bit of a paradox and how do I navigate? So we're sitting at family dinner and all my family knows I've left. And my brother, my oldest brother, you know, is supposed to call in some me to say that prayer and he calls my name. This is my favorite. This was one of my moments were in like, Oh, I'm stepping definitely more into my shoes. And, um, he asked him to the prayer, and I said, Sure, Jim, Well, who would you like me to pray to? Mother Jag wire and I like the look and everybody's on everybody. Space was like they're laughing because it was so mortifying, and my mom quickly like called after the you know, maybe five seconds. It's like, hurry up and call somebody else because no example is she sending because she's gonna pull people away, you know, whatever it ISS and, you know, to each their own. But that was definitely a break out moment for me, where I had courage to be, like, Great, Let's, you know, Mother Jaguar, Who is it that you want me to pray to? And it was It was definitely one of those moments. I'm sure you've had moments to roots like, Oh, that was brave of me to do that. And it felt really good to do that.

spk_1:   1:11:59
It took me a long time. Took me a long time to fill that brief.

spk_0:   1:12:04
I'm still practicing how to be that brave. And again, though, there's boundaries and this gets this isn't tricky topic of boundaries. So it'll be its own podcast. So normally we haven't asked. At the end of do you feel like we've I think feel like this has been long. We're probably going to wrap up what you thought What, do you have thoughts?

spk_1:   1:12:29
Yeah. I mean, I don't

spk_0:   1:12:30
I feel like I don't done, I guess,

spk_1:   1:12:34
um you ask and I want to come because it's so important to me to come from a place of deep respect for wherever you are in your belief system. This isn't about ah trying to say it's right or wrong One way or another. This is sharing our experience. Um, it is an invitation to really question your Why Why do you do the things you do? Do you feel it in your body? Do you fill it? Do you do it because you're told to Do you feel it? Because it feels like truth? Do you feel it? Because it's just what your family does. It's a tribal belief. Do you feel it because you don't know any other way and just really question your Why? What is your wife for? What you do in your life every day? And are Do you even know why I didn't know? I didn't know for a really long time.

spk_0:   1:13:33
My why, when I was choosing into religion. Waas What it's scripted to be. In fact, here's a question. Teoh. I love what you're saying anything that that's the ask for sure, But I remember having ah, energy session with someone. He was Mormon too. But he was a little bit of that dabbling outside of it. And there was some experiences that I had that I'm like. Shit. How does this how does this fit into the the box of my religion? And he said in one sentence, Tell me what your belief ISS and I started rattling off. While I believe you know Joseph Smith to be a true prophet and know what is your belief in one sentence? And what it came down to was love. I believe in love. That was it. That was the core of why I was choosing into what I was practicing in that. But then it actually made me start questioning. Wait a minute. Is this love? So I have always kind of question. And so you're asked of Why? Why? Why? Why am I choosing into this? I think is a bit. It's a little ask and it's a big ask if you're brave enough to ask that question. I think this is a beautiful A beautiful Ask.

spk_1:   1:14:40
Yeah, and the important reason for it is if you can figure out your why then you it becomes a conscious choice. Religion was handed to me. I was born into it. It was what my family did. It was what my tribe did. I grew up in a very predominantly Mormon area. It's the tribal belief system I was given. And in family constellations we talk about the tribal belief versus the individual belief. And what happens is there comes a time when your individual believe bumps up against the tribal belief. And when you choose to follow your individual belief, you lose your place of belonging

spk_0:   1:15:24
and you go against tribal law. Yeah,

spk_1:   1:15:26
yeah, and belonging is one of our route needs. As human beings, no need to belong. It's in that survival instinct in a root chakra. We Onley survived if we had a place of belonging. So when you challenge your place of belonging by stepping out of your tribe and saying my personal belief is more important to me than following what the tribe does, you are out of the tribe, and then it's a weird place to be because all those survival things come out and it's it's hard wired in our DNA. It's hardwired in there that we need to we need a tribe to belong to, and so I believe that's like why I went to yoga and then you know, you to start trying on all these different tribes of where do I belong Because I don't belong over here anymore. And then the process of finding your why, Okay, I've found a way I can belong in my family without holding the same belief. You know, because I do belong. I belong in my family. I was born into it. And I don't have to believe the same things. Yeah, but when you find your why, it helps you step into your sovereignty into yourself and into your own skin in a conscious way. And when you know you're why you can live consciously, then I'm just in a program. I'm just going along with this program. And then I believe truth changes, we change and truth changes. Right? Because my truth was Mormonism for a long time and are wise kind of drive that change. So yoga for a long time was my tribe. It was my spiritual practice. It was my way into my body. And then as that truth changed because I changed Oh, there goes my belonging again. Now I'm over here again. Where do I belong? When did I mean So it's this continual process of death and rebirth, death and rebirth and in rebirth, which I love in the you did You opened a circle for podcast today with a Chamonix practice, and that's you brought in that process of death and rebirth. And that's change. Like, just like like, yeah, and And unless if we get so stuck that we cannot let go of something, we're out of that death and rebirth cycle. Yeah. Now,

spk_0:   1:17:47
that was beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So there's your ask if you're brave enough because it does take brave being brave and courageous. Why are you choosing into whatever it is you're choosing into? Why are you doing the things that you're choosing

spk_1:   1:18:06
every day? Yeah. Yeah. And again, the only right answer is the answer you come up with, right? And it's for me. If it comes from inside of you, you can trust it. Yeah, so and

spk_0:   1:18:22
sometimes it takes a while to get that answer inside. Especially if you're so used to something outside. So take the time, take the time to really find what that why is and and then trust yourself with whatever it is knowing that at any time it can change and you can choose you at every moment we can choose. Choose again. She's differently. Choose something

spk_1:   1:18:43
else. Yeah, I think a powerful practice when you start questioning like things that come up. Is this true? Is this true?

spk_0:   1:18:52
Does it is true?

spk_1:   1:18:54
Is this true and just keep getting down to the very root belief you know of what is driving that? Is this true? And if it's a yes, it's a yes,

spk_0:   1:19:05
and if it's an I don't know, it's and I don't

spk_1:   1:19:07
know and it's OK, yeah, it's okay to be in the unknown. Yeah, yeah, Awesome Chi

spk_0:   1:19:15
Sending you all lots of love today

spk_1:   1:19:18
and we are in a huge period of change. Young and so many things. One thing that I wanted to share from the New Moon Circle with Daniel Page. She's an astrologer, and she said, the new moon and tourists, which is very earthy, inviting us into our bodies, um, horses do not like change its

spk_0:   1:19:40
complex is their idea.

spk_1:   1:19:41
Yeah, it's conjunction of Uranus, which is a planet that likes to shake things up and shaking things up is going to create change. And I believe we're in a process of a lot of changes and we're not going to go back to what was normal ever. And it's gonna have to require a lot of embracing change and really navigate it through your body. There's so many things out there right now that is saying it's truth that saying It's science, that saying It's what you should do this, that or the other bring it into your body and trust what your body is telling you and then allow yourself to follow that through the changes that are going to be coming up does it's It's inevitable. Yeah,

spk_0:   1:20:28
agreed. That was awesome. Thank you. Yeah, they have a great week. Thank you so much for joining us today and spending some of your valuable time with us. We hope there was something that you gained in your awareness that you can now share into the world. Remember, you are a divine creator. So what are you creating today? Come check us out on Instagram finding oneness and duality. We love to hear your feedback. We just love to hear from you. Please feel free to come check us out. Relationships are two sided. So come be the other side finding dot Oneness dot In its too long. Thank you. So Okay, but Oh, you okay? Laughter is good for the soul. All right. Okay.