What's Going On? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean
What's Going On? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean
"Switch It or Ditch It": Taking Charge of Your Career and Life!
When your career is no longer fulfilling, it's time to explore how to switch it or ditch it, says author, human resources expert and executive coach Dr. Shelley Cameron, who joins us to illuminate the path to success and work-life balance. Dr. Cameron unpacks her empowering book, "Your Career: Ditch It or Switch It," which not only provides insight into the success strategies of African American and Caribbean American leaders but also doubles as a practical workbook for your own journey. If you're at a crossroads in your career, seeking to navigate through the complexities of leadership, or simply searching for a blueprint to self-directed achievement, tune in.
Dr. Cameron says: “The top signs to identify when it is time to leave your job:
- You lack passion—that fired-up feeling you had when you started
- You are miserable every morning and dread going to work
- Your company is sinking
- You really dislike the people you work with or your boss
- You are consistently stressed, negative, or unhappy at work
- Your skills are not being tapped
- You have been passed over for promotion or more challenging assignments
- Your job duties have changed or increased, but your pay has not.
If you identify with any of these signs, it might be time to ditch that job!”
Dr. Cameron explains the decision-making process necessary to determine the right moment to make a career switch and the strategic steps necessary to ensure a smooth transition.
Finally, this episode tackles the complexities of leadership and self-leadership, providing insight into handling difficult bosses and fostering a positive workplace environment in a post-COVID-19 landscape. Join us, and arm yourself with the knowledge to steer your career course with confidence.
When Your Career is no longer fulfilling, it's time to "Switch it or Ditch it." says HR Expert Shelly Cameron
Moronke: Welcome back to what's going on. eyes on Africa and the Caribbean. Today's guest is Dr. Shelley Cameron, who is a prolific writer, a coach and author of numerous books on success, leadership, and inspiration. Dr. Cameron has invested years of research on leadership and success as a result of her passion for organizational change and people development, particularly people of African and Caribbean descent. She has degrees in organizational leadership, health administration, human resources management, and probably a few more. This woman is just incredible. Shelly is from the Caribbean and has lived in Canada and currently lives in the United States. But she is a traveler. We'll learn a little bit more about her. Hi, Shelly. Thanks for joining us today.
Shelly Cameron: Hi, how are you?
Moronke: Good. Good. Good. So today we're going to talk about your book and you have a [00:01:50] number of them. I want to talk today about the book called “Your Career: Ditch It, Switch It." And folks, it is available, on Amazon, I believe, And we'll talk about that at the end, but you should get this.
Um, so “Your Career: Ditch It, Switch It”, is like a workbook on how to take charge of your personal and professional development. Is that an accurate description, Shelley?
Shelly Cameron: of this book? Uh, there is an evolution, um, as far as it is concerned, um, as you said, the, the workbook. But it stands alone, or it gives some individuals an idea of, um, how to do it for themselves. If I may share with you, how it started.
Moronke: Good, absolutely.
Shelly Cameron: Sure. I was doing my doctoral research and I didn't want to do the, the research based on anything that is usually available. The usual stuff, I always like to be a little bit different. So for about a year, I, I gleaned the market, tried to understand. I love organizational leadership. I [00:02:50] love leadership. I love success. And I love personal growth. So I was looking around and then I looked at persons who were not as affluent, and I looked at the others that I have been in the industry with, because I'm from the pharmaceutical industry, and they're pretty affluent and all. And then at the end of the day, I said, OK, why not find a connection between the two? Why not interview individuals? And I did a phenomenological study on success strategies of Caribbean American leaders in the United States. So that's how my journey began. Fast forward several years later, I had interviewed, heads of organizations, um, leaders and heads of organizations that are of Caribbean descent.
These were persons who are the head of major organizations but they must have been born on a Caribbean island and migrated to the United States: and it was recognized by Nova Southeastern University. and [00:03:50] I was flabbergasted, so I asked, How did she hear about me? And she, instead of responding, she sent me a link.
See, this is on Twitter. She sent me a link. When I opened it up, I saw my face on Nova. Nova's website. Big face with my own. A whole page of Shelley Cameron. And I said, oh my gee. Anyway, so. That was there and then, um, I published it into the Journal of American Academy of Cambridge, um, of Business Cambridge, A A B C.
And I started going around, I spoke with doctoral students who afterwards wanted to know how they can turn theirs into, their research into a book as well. Then from there, the questions, I would have workshops and meetings and, you know, book lunches and stuff. And people would ask me, so how can I do it after the presentation?
How can I get my, um, do this? Success thing. And I said, Oh, wow. I, after I published my book of the same name, Success Strategies of Caribbean American Leaders, only to find out they're still asking the question. So I said, [00:04:00] okay, let me do that. I thought about it. So it was generated by audience feedback. And I wrote the book, the, the so called workbook, as you're seeing it, your career, ditch it, switch it.
And then here's how you do it. So what it is, it has in several different, um, uh, information on leadership and the high level leaders such as Oprah and Colin Powell who passed away and, you know, those kind of persons. And from their quotes as to how they became it, I decided to leave lines so that the persons who are going through it may find out for themselves, how can I, um, develop my own success?
What is the path that I need to go down? So it gives you the same information. It's not. It's well researched. It's not from my head like I picked it out of a hat. It's well researched and then put together so that individuals themselves might learn how to do it themselves. I hope that explains the connection between.
Moronke: It certainly does. It's a wonderful topic. Particularly as you said, you, you focused [00:05:00] in on Caribbean, uh, black and Caribbean leaders. I, listen, Shelley, I'm putting out another idea here. Maybe it's time to interview some African leaders and try and, um, and that's, that's a book there right there in terms of what leadership is.
Of course. That is a, difficult continent and we need, um, we need a skills book on
Shelly Cameron: that one. So coincidentally, um, when I had the information, the research I was looking at, I had the data after I searched And I had information on Iranian American leaders and I decided to do, put at the back of that book, a comparative analysis of how Caribbean American leaders do it, as well as how Iranian American leaders do it, and if there was a difference that was identified as well.
So your idea now to look at African leaders actually does make sense. Oh
Moronke: yes. Yes, definitely. I'm looking, I'm looking out for that one
Shelly Cameron: I’m ready.
Moronke: Okay. You know, everybody knows, um, [00:06:00] everybody's been saying it, the work world has changed dramatically, particularly since, COVID 19, uh, people are leaving their jobs in droves. We're told even those earning six figure salaries or quitting their jobs, all over the place, the U. S., Europe. Uh, maybe even in the Caribbean too. We don't know because again, that research is yet to be done. There's another topic right there for you. Uh, Shelly, a recent report by a company called PayScale pay listed the top 15 jobs where people say they, um, they are planning to quit and I thought it was an interesting list. Some of them are high paying jobs and the others are the lesser paying.
So they had listed as their top 15 jobs people are planning to quit. Senior product managers, 66%. And these are people making, um, close to $150, 000 are leaving, uh, phlebotomists, uh, line cooks, [00:07:00] patient care technicians, emergence room, registered nurses, patient service representatives, cyber security analysts, welders, and cutters, forklift operators. Retail sales associates, uh, software development engineers, senior data analysts. Patient care coordinators top 15. And, while some of those are in the lower paying, um, strata, the fact is some of these guys, um, your engineers and data analysts are, high income, earning, positions. So my question is to you, what's, what's going on?
Shelly Cameron: What's, what's happening? I like when you put me on the spot like that, but I'm out there in the industry so I should know. So part of what I do also is I work with the, um, the hospital at an HR association. I was actually their VP for a while and that has kept me in the loop of human resource management leadership at that level.
So I keep abreast of what is happening. [00:08:00] Now, what is common to those, um, those, those positions that you called out is some of them are high paying, but then others are low paying, but most of them come with high stress. Right? So most of them come with high stress, and based on what is happening now with this, or sojourn into mental health, and, um, I think even managers themselves, some managers They're not necessarily managing the way they should. And, um, they, what I've found, especially the, the millennials that I've worked with very closely through my work in Washington, D. C., they don't, they don't take, I don't want to say crap. They don't. They don't take it at all. So, it depends on the leadership style of managers. So that's one that is, um, I'm not sure of what the results of his skills, um, research was, but I know from a fact that these guys don't not take it.
And that's what I do as a leadership coach to really speak with people about staying in [00:09:00] jobs and making sure. that they actually, making sure that they actually have another job before they jump ship. Because I've had too many of them coming to me. I should not be sad about that because that brings work for me.
Absolutely. Right, but they, they jump ship and then they regret it and come back. Um, they obviously can't go back to the company, but they're annoyed with the managers and then they just decide to jump ship. You spoke quite a bit of the healthcare industry. But can you think of the positions that are highlighted there? It was high stress, especially as far as COVID was concerned. Post COVID and during COVID, you know, the high stress that were, um, involved in that area, where persons were, you know, no money at all, no amount of money can keep you, especially when your health is going to be affected or your family life. I have been there, done that. My family [00:10:54] life was affected and after many years I decided no, my daughter was growing up without her mother, being at home, growing up with other persons who were there, um, who I hired, you know, pick up, drop off and all of those things. And I just gave it all up. So I gave it all up and I'm one of those that gave it up because you want to work life balance or you want meaning after age 40.
You want meaning. There must be some purpose in life. So that could be some, a part of my analysis of what is happening out there. I'm not sure what pay scale, I'd love to read that research that you sent.
Moronke: Yeah, that's, that's, uh, that was a recent one that I, I picked up a couple of days ago. So Jamaicans, I should say West Indians tend to focus on careers in health care, particularly nursing. We have a lot of West Indian nurses, particularly Jamaican nurses and, and, um, so forth. Are they suffering the same, stressful environment or are they kind of like sticking to it because that's that's what they know? Are they experiencing the same thing or is this? [00:11:54] So
Shelly Cameron: what do you know about that? Right. So for me, my background has been in, in, uh, administration and I have a master's degree in health administration. I shared that with you because when I left my job, I actually wanted to manage an organization at that level because I know that I actually care. What I found, I was in pharmaceuticals, so I left pharmaceuticals to go into direct patient care. Not nursing or clinical or anything like that, but still to manage the, and I ended up managing medical centers to get doctors and the physicians and the nurses to be able to provide the care from their heart. Now that bedside manner is not, it's absent. People go into healthcare these days mainly, and I'm sharing this, so hey nurses don't get too mad at me, but a lot of them are in it, not necessarily for The ones who were, like, Jamaicans and so on, they find, and the Caribbean people, go into it because they care, mostly.
That's what keeps them there, because they care. Many [00:12:53] others decide that, okay, I'm just going to go into it because it pays money. So they go into it for their money. And then they don't want to do the care anymore. And what you find that they, they transition in is to try to transition into admins, admin.
So when you get into admin, you don't have to do the beds, the, um, the clinical side of it. And the market is now hiring, not for persons like myself who are not, um, clinical. They want you to have both the clinical as well as the admin side of things. So I think as far as it's concerned that they are staying, most of them, I have a problem with it because I would prefer if persons, when they go to the hospital, they would receive that.
care that they need to get and not necessarily, um, you know, seeing it as work. Though, again, you can't, you can't underestimate the stress that comes with this, this career. High stress.
Moronke: Is, is, um, administration as stressful? I would have thought it would be at a different, on a different level and scale [00:13:50] than, than nursing, than the clinical side.
Shelly Cameron: Yes. The administration definitely is even more um, they are stressed because, well, let's see, financial, they want to, they want to achieve the result at the end of the day, the financial result. Um, if they're not getting that, then chances are they, I know when you talk about managed care in the United States and how they managed it and the payment reimbursement system and all of that. Things have changed. And because it has changed, there are some people who are giving up on it as far as the, as far as the management. Because from when I was in it, what had happened was there was, um, it was CPAs who owned a lot of medical centers because it really paid money, big money.
Moronke: Really? CPAs?
Shelly Cameron: Yes. So you don't know that because they are behind it. It's their center. It's their medical business. Right, it's their medical business, but they hired the physicians and they complied with everything. So that's my role. My role was to make sure [00:14:50] everything ran well, meaning, the auditors would come in and they would ensure that there's enough patient per physicians and you had medical directors and that, you know, they were licensed and you know, all of those things.
So that was my role. The medical centers had to comply. The compliance is a big thing. So when those, uh, when the payment system, payment reimbursement system changed, then you ended up having them jumping ship. They were no longer, because there was no more money coming in as, as for a profit. Um, this is from the private side, private side. And as I said, privately owned medical clinics, which in South Florida, there's quite a number of them. They're now being bought by the bigger. Um, bigger, um, hospitals and so on. Everything has changed with the urgent care and also by the private
Moronke: equity groups too, right? Exactly, exactly. Who are probably worse because they are, they are totally mercenaries. It's, it's, bottom line is money.
Shelly Cameron: Wow. That I'm making. That word is a little bit strong.
Moronke: It’s a, it's strong. [00:15:50] Okay. So they're not mercenaries. They're just greedy. How about that?
Shelly Cameron: Yeah. Well, let's say.. Let's not go into the liturgy of names.
Moronke: Okay. All right. So, it's, it's fair to say that most people have been talking about, um, stressful environment, which you've just alluded to, um, racism again, which you alluded to. And I'd like to, to talk about that, in a little more depth, uh, a little, uh, later on. But, in your book, you introduced, and I thought it was, it was absolutely wonderful. Um, two examples of how people handled their, resignation. You had one who didn't quit, who wanted to leave the job, but was, afraid to leave the job, even though There were potential opportunities because she didn't want to, I guess, betray her boss, if I'm correct. So she ignored calls from, from a head [00:16:50] hunter. And then you, you had, another from, and I thought this one was, was quite, I don't know what word to describe. It was quite scary, but I think it, it makes the point that you were saying from a CNN news story about a dramatic. resignation by an airline representative who, um, ditched his job, you say, in the middle of the Atlantic.
So tell us about those two, because the first one for, instance, I can relate to, I've, I've heard a lot from, people that I've mentored who want to leave, but that, um, but they're hedging because they don't want to kind of like disappoint and they come up with all these excuses, but you know that they want to leave. In your illustration she, she finally, came to her senses and took the offer. Well, what's going on there? Um, I mean, that's, that's real. That's a real situation.
Shelly Cameron: It's actually a real thing that happens pretty often. Individuals [00:17:50] want to leave. And if I can use myself as an example, I wanted to leave my, my job, my well paying job that I was enjoying success and achieving the, um, the company achieving the Employer of Choice Award. And I was leading a lot of these initiatives and all, but then at the end of it, when you weigh both, do you want, um, work life balance? Do you want family? Do you want to have children grow up without you? Right? So remember you have spouses and so on who is not seeing because what with success comes stress, right?
Mm hmm success never happens without stress. So with success comes stress. If you're going to go back to the young lady, and she actually is a Caribbean American and she was doing everything and she was quite contented. But having the headhunters reach out to her over and over and over. She went away to our project for a while, maybe spent two years. And then she came back and they weren't, they didn't give up. And that's when she started thinking long and hard. How do I go about doing this? Should I go about doing this? And then of course she finally gave in. [00:18:50] She didn't have children. But she gave in and decided, hey, I'm going to go and do it.
So it usually, for persons in that category, it usually takes a while to give up the good for the great. Right? To give up good for purpose. So that usually takes a while. On the other hand, with the flight attendant who was, of course, again, it comes back to stress in this regard. And the working environment that you're working in and all. Of course, it is the, the um, over the Atlantic it was said, but it didn't happen in the Atlantic.
Moronke: That's what I needed clarification on.
Shelly Cameron: No, no, no, right. So it was when, it started there and um, just gave up the, the, the job. And then when they landed. Jumped out and decided, no, I'm out of here. And said, I quit.
That's the point. And you've seen it on the Weather Channel. Yeah. You've heard a lot too. Where this girl on the, the weather news, she just decided, hey, and she just, um, resigned, um, in the media. So it's from one extreme to the next. I would try and talk with persons before, as a leadership [00:19:50] coach, just say to them, don't wait until it gets to that level where you're just on a jump ship.
So to spoke, jump ship, immediately. But take your time and do it the right way. So when you're leaving, you have no regrets. You're going to something that is satisfactory because when you do it like that, sometimes they don't know what is next. But sometimes you, and I preach about, um, risk taking risk as well. But sometimes you take calculated risk, not risk just to jump out and jump ship like that and you have responsibilities to, to take care of and you don't know where it is. You need to save up and out. Go ahead, please. Uh, no, go ahead. Finish your thought. No, I was saying you need to save up enough and there are several things that you need to do and that's what I work with, um, leaders and organizations to do before they go.
Moronke: Okay. Okay. So as I was reading that, that last example, it brought up an issue that, I've heard from people who say they don't know how to write a resignation letter. So in terms of that airline stewardess, I was wondering, is it that, this person didn't know how to
Shelly Cameron: write a [00:20:50] resignation letter?
Not in the least, not in the least. That's not it. That's all about stress. That's all about stress. Now, um, it's post COVID, you know that, for example, the, the flights, flight attendants are high stress now because every day it's a fighting on flight, so it has nothing to do with it. What in my job as HR and, um, I've had, um, employees who have, um, written on post its and left it on post its to their managers that they are not coming back.
Oh God. Post It Notes. Oh gosh. Is that a legal docu is it a legal document? Yes, it is a legal document. Really? They have written on it that I'm not. It is a legal document. Again, as far as the, um, as I attend quite and keep myself up to date on compliance and legal, legalities in, employer employment relations, and it is a legal document.
And what are you going to do, call them back and ask them to write a proper one? No, they've written down that they're not coming back. But there are ways, of course, that is going to follow you. [00:21:50] Because sometimes they will do background checks, whether it is official. The unofficial one is the most important, as you would know.
The unofficial, the official ones in the United States, we're not able to get much information. Um, you just confirm whether you'd hire them back and so on. There are ways to find it out. But other than that, um, they can still find out, um, the background as to, Hey, this person wrote on a Post It Note, so am I going to hire them and, you know, stuff.
So think about it before you jump. I have a professional outplacement, plan. I call it a professional or an executive exit plan.
Mm hmm. Because that helps them to talk with a coach, especially when they're going through issues and they don't know how to do it. So you talk with someone, an accountability partner, could be, but just talk with someone that is more educated on the issue that they can help you in how to prepare before you jump ship.
Moronke: You talked about knowing when it's time to switch or ditch. How do we know? What are the telltale signs that it's time to go before [00:22:50] I lose my mind?
Shelly Cameron: If you're thinking of, and I do a lot of the talks and posts on Instagram, I do a lot of that. And you know, if you're getting out of bed each morning and you're feeling tired, if you're feeling sick, I'm going through a few, if you're feeling tired all the time, when you, you don't want to get out of bed each morning when you're supposed to be getting up to go to work. That's a sign. If it is that you go to work and you're feeling sick, you can't, you don't want to be there. You're not being productive. You're just watching the time. Those are all telling signs. If everything is, if everything is passing you by, you have promotional opportunities and nobody's offering it to you. Then those are also telltale signs. And another one is to look into the marketplace. If you're going to decide that you want to move on, but when you look out there, are you prepared? That falls on the part of the preparation. Are you prepared for another opportunity? And I will link this back into, um, what you, the [00:23:50] professions that you read.
That people are leaving for. Some of them are no longer occupations that are existing. You have a lot where the um, a simple one is, I see now these days where the traffic lights are now …, when construction is going on in the road, you usually have a police officer or someone there to direct the traffic. Now it's no longer necessary because they've put up now traffic lights on lonely roads and so on to stop having to have a person standing there and directing the traffic.
So all of these jobs are going out of place simply because of what technology has taken over. Technology in many different arenas. So those are some of the signs that you see, the teletype signs that, hey, it's time for me to, to move on.
Moronke: I once got some advice from someone many, many years ago. I've heard it several times that you should always be looking for your next job. But [00:24:50] I would have thought that that would be distracting, in terms of your ability to focus. I know for instance, The young people these days, they say that they may stay on a job for a year, a year and a half, and they're, they're moving on. Isn't that a problem?
Shelly Cameron: It is like, um, maybe two to three years. Mm-Hmm. . So they move on after two to three years. They. So maybe in year two, they start looking around to see what exists. I would also often say to people and I usually say to our HR counterparts that we need to update our resumes all the time to know what are the things and it's not necessarily HR only.
Every single occupation is supposed to update resumes because I've found with many, many persons that I've coached, when you ask them, what is it that you've achieved? What they're doing is they pull their job description and they let their job description be filled with a job description And a resume is not a job description.
It's supposed to look at what is the impact that you've made in the company Now these young persons, um, [00:25:50] millennials and all, they decide that they're doing this work And if they ask for something and they're not getting it Then they decide that they want to move on to something else. So they also are on Instagram. They're On social media, obviously they're on LinkedIn, they're everywhere and they're looking at occupations that are existing and then they decide if they want to, I have one example, one wanted to go back to school and she decided she wanted to go back to school and guess what, she spoke with her manager and guess what the manager said, uh, unfortunately that job is not in line with what we have in terms of our, our career path in the company.
You know what she did? She started looking around and within a few months, she was out of there. So it is, they, they want certain things. If you're talking about millennials, they want certain things and they're not getting it and they're not going to stay. They're moving on. So it's, they have no, no, what is it? commitment to an organization like we had before. Right.
Moronke: Well, [00:26:50] we stayed for a lifetime, right? Exactly. And you want to get that thing. And then we got the retirement watch. Exactly. And then died.
Shelly Cameron: You are so correct. So there is a life after now. There is. Life after the job. Yeah,
Moronke: there is. I think many of us, um, what they call us, the baby boomers, we do kind of like envy the millennials to uh, to a larger thing. So they simply put their foot down and say, I'm not taking this.
Shelly Cameron: So let me tell you something else though. Um, in, in the over 40 is the ones that I usually want to talk with the people are going through what do you call it now? That time in life when you're 40, middle age, middle ages, yes, the midlife, midlife crisis. And what I found is now it's not the midlife crisis anymore and midlife crisis starts at 30. Because our millennials decided that they are, they have a linear path that they'd like to follow. They want to get their education, they want to do this, they want to do that, and they also want to [00:27:50] become entrepreneurs, and they want to get married at age 30, and have children, you know, they're postponing having children until mid 30s or something
but guess what happened? So I get them, and then they're mad, because when I'm talking with them, they realize that, Oh my God, I'm a 30 years old, and I haven't achieved this, I haven't achieved that, I haven't gotten the house that I wanted, and all kind of stuff, so now they're going back into their parents homes, and, you know, all of those things they go through.
Because they're very linear, they don't understand that sometimes things happen, and when things happen they're not aware of how to manage it, because they said, okay, this is what I want, this is what I, and step by step by step, and life doesn't operate on a linear scale. Right. So you have to be flexible in, in terms of achieving it.
Go after your goals, I'm a goal person and I will help them to achieve their goals as far as direction and I'll provide that direction that they need. But life is not linear and that's what the wake up call usually is to them when they get to 30 and looking back and looking ahead. So it's usually supposed to be [00:28:50] 40, but it's now going down to 30.
Moronke: Oh, my goodness. Oh, wow. That's interesting, though. That's interesting. Um, you talk about success. And, and every, you know, we all talk about success. And you just alluded to it. You know, you feel you've not been successful after all these years. Uh, what is success? We all know that there's so many different definitions and you've talked, you also talk about that in your book, um, and many of those definitions, um, don't apply to us. You know, there are a few that you identified, which I thought were, very, um, close to the mark, particularly, for me, um, can I share, my favorites with you? One of the, um, “Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.” And that was Winston Churchill.
That's hard, but I mean, you know, that it speaks volumes. It says a lot about your determination. Dr. King said, “We must accept [00:29:50] finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.” Um, that one I think is so significant because sometimes, uh, one disappointment throws us off, off track.
Um, uh, Mary Kay Ash, “Don't limit yourself. Many people limit themselves to what they think they can do. You go as far as your mind lets you, what you believe you can achieve.” And then finally, the, the great Oprah Winfrey, the key to realizing a dream is to focus not on success. But significance and even the small steps and little victories along your path will take on greater meaning.
And I, I mean, for me, that, that, I mean, I thought that really hit it because we're so focused on, on this success thing. Even though we don't even know how to define it. Um, and we miss those, those small victories, those small steps that we make that moves us [00:30:50] forward. Do you have a favorite?
Shelly Cameron: So I will answer that in two ways.
Um, the, the formal definition of success that I use in all of my research was success is the achievement of wealth, honors, and the like. Can you say that again for us? Success is the achievement of wealth, honors, or the like. Mm hmm. And in following that, that was on that, that in following up on that, what my definition is always is let no one define what success means to you.
Moronke: Good. I like that.
Shelly Cameron: Define it for yourself. Let no one define what success means to you. Define it for yourself. So it can't be my mother who is telling me, hey, Shelly, I was. Um, a mechanic, therefore you should become a mechanic as well. Hey Shelly, I'm, I was a boxer, therefore you should become a boxer as well.
It must be that I love writing, I love educating people, I love watching people grow personally and professionally and that's the [00:31:50] direction I want to go in. Anything that you want to do. That's what your success should be. You will find that you will achieve success more when you do what you want to do.
And I always, for some reason, I'm always talking about Usain Bolt. Why? Because he says. Free as ever. He's a runner. And he ran, and he was the fastest man in the world. But he played a lot. He played with, you know how it is, when he ran away, his son he won, he started doing the dance and stuff. And I think he has changed the world as far as you look at Olympics is concerned, because everybody now has some dance or some nuance to it.
Yes. That they're coming off at the end with. Yeah. So it is all about you. And I don't necessarily join into me, me, me mentality, but you have to decide, okay, what is it that you want out of life? Otherwise I would be achieving, Moronke, um, Dr. Moronke's goal and not Shelley Cameron's goal.
Moronke: Right. Right. You know, in my interpersonal communication class, I would usually ask how do you define success? And then I [00:32:50] would say, is it making, a lot of money or is it doing what you really enjoy doing, even though it doesn't pay? Right. And, it's always half and half. And I asked them why, and they said, well, you know, without money, you can't function in this society. You can't function. So yeah, you want to be an artist, but unless you're making money as an artist, you, you're not successful. And I'm going back to Usain Bolt. Um, when he started and you, you define him as, as successful and he surely is, but would, would it have been the same if he wasn't making money?
Shelly Cameron: So that's made a lot of money, of course, so that's another question that, um, you would have to reflect on because life comes with some bills and it comes with expenses that we must take care of it. We must buy food. We must. There are some, of course, if you know my hierarchy of needs, those must be taken into account, right? The bottom level needs for food, shelter and all that. Those are [00:33:50] needs that are important. People go to work every day, day in, day out and decide that that's what their needs are and that they try to fill it. But doing above that, that is when, and that's a really good question point that you're making.
Remember I said success is the attainment of wealth. You're talking about money right there. Honors. Some people don't want money. They want recognition. They want honors. Organizations have, um, they're now recognizing that you need to recognize employees. Right? You need to empower them. Those are not necessarily financial rewards.
Because financial rewards can go so far and no further. But you also need, um, you need the, the, the bottom level needs to be taken care of. Uh, would you say something? One who is just going, making men's meat is successful on the job? Depends. Depends on what they're looking at. But if they can't meet their ends, they're going to be miserable. And of course that misery is going to come out on the job. So I would dare say that if Usain Bolt was not achieving his bottom [00:34:50] level needs, the foundational needs, then chance You know, but if you're doing what you like, most, in most instances, you find that, um, success follows you. And if you're talking about artists, you're talking about writers or artists and so on.
You usually have a lot of them who would write, and then you never get money from it. You have artists, and you never get money from being an artist. But guess what? Look at what is happening. Today, look at social media, all of these artists now can turn their work into paid work to serve other persons who do not have the skill that they have.
I'm sure you're seeing it. Absolutely. The design and everything that is there. Nothing can go out. Well, things go out without a design, but look at the result. Yeah.
Moronke: Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, that's one of the major benefits I think of, of, uh, social media is that it's open the world to everyone, including those who don't, who don't have the means, but you know, I'm, and you're right. And there are folks for whom it's not about making money. [00:35:50] But it's about, it's about being recognized. It's about, it's about the, getting the honor.
Shelly Cameron: Right. And I look at, um, I look at, Mother Teresa. Right. She wasn't about money. Right. And you have many people who are like that.
Moronke: She was a missionary. They don't do things for money.
Shelly Cameron: But they have, they still have the needs, right? Yeah. And she was well known worldwide and she gave up herself to everything that she wanted to. She, she
Moronke: really, I mean, come on, most of us, you know, we want to, you know, want to have a nice apartment, you know, some, you
Shelly Cameron: know. Um, I guess I, I'm saying that we could do research on that. That's one.
Moronke: Because
Shelly Cameron: I think we're, we're coming out with a lot of research.
Moronke: We certainly are Aren't we?
Moronke: In the book? You asked the question, what is your mission? [00:36:50] Um, I thought that was very interesting because I don't know if we ever think about when you talk about mission, we think about organizations having missions. But you having a mission, what does that mean?
Shelly Cameron: Right, so your mission is close to your purpose, right? Mm hmm. Okay, so. So what is it? If your, if mission and the purpose are basically aligned.
So I'm working at an organization and I'm in healthcare. And I'm talking me personally. So I'm in healthcare, and I'm working with an organization. What I want to do is to align myself with an organization that wants to see individuals feel better, do more, and live longer. Right? So that was the mission of our organization.
Everything that was said aligned with my mission for my own personal self. It aligned so much that after 14 years I decided to go and get another master's degree in the area because I wanted to deep, deep dive. I wanted to be able to communicate with physicians as to how to give that [00:37:50] patient care without being, um, I'm going to say nasty, or without being cold. Put it that way, cold, because I hear that these physicians these days are now just telling people, okay, you have cancer, for example, just telling them they're straight out and that is, oh my God, that is something that people are seeing as a death sentence, you know, you don't tell people things like that, but that's how they're doing it.
Again, we come back to the stress or we come back to lack of educating them on, on how to, you know, provide that care and how it takes work, you know, do you know that? Yes. Providing care takes work. And if you're stressed, all you want to do is, okay, cross a patient off the list, cross an individual off the list. Not to mention when we're calling organizations these days and customer service answers, if they do answer, because all we're getting are machines. But, um, this is, as you can see, that's, that's something that I, I, I have a passion for when it comes to, when you're talking about your mission and your purpose in life.
What is it that you want to achieve? What [00:38:50] is it that you want to accomplish in life? And how, when, and through what medium? Because even the thieves themselves are also, they do also do have a mission. What is their mission? If everybody has one, they just want to get rich quick. They want to get rich quick.But it starts with ethics, you know?
Moronke: Okay, So your example there about wanting to, to dig deeper into how to be more caring. So that would be kind of like your mission?
Shelly Cameron: as opposed to a purpose. Exactly. It is. Okay.
Moronke: All right. Interesting. Many people think they should aspire to leadership. And I think sometimes we also make the mistake, maybe it's not a mistake, of assuming as as teachers, as leaders, that everybody should aspire to leadership. What's your thought on that?
Shelly Cameron: Uh, I think not everybody should, I, I, I, I'm not sure if you would make a [00:39:50] blanket statement about someone. Aspiring to leadership. But I think everybody has leadership qualities in them. A baby has it, right? Uh, uh, uh, A teacher has it. And I'm saying that loosely. Notice I'm saying it. Every single person has it. Children have it. Is that because you have the ability to lead yourself. I see. And then this is the direction that you know, you must know how to lead and that's where coaching will come in because a lot of persons are not necessarily leading themselves in the right direction. And that would, that's how, why an individual would just leave their jobs without thinking. And then they go back home and, you know, start borrowing from family members and doing all the things that if you had a job, you would need to do being at the bottom of the level, the ladder, right? You need to do that. If you, if you are leading yourself in the right way, but some, sometimes people are not. Educated. And education doesn't mean, going to college and so on. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about [00:40:50] education as having someone they can look up to. Going into the community and working with others and seeing how best to even have simple, I would say, manners as we talk about in the Caribbean, right?
There are some things that are very simple. But leadership in organizations is one of the most important. As we would know, that's where we spend a lot of time, speaking with leaders, top level leaders, about how to manage people, how to manage business, what it is to do to understand certain things, those are management, and then you have to lead those managers, or lead your employees, and empower them as to how to achieve the goals and objectives of the organization.
Right. That, does that answer your question? It does. It does.
Moronke: I like the fact that you said we, uh, the potential leadership to, to lead oneself. And I think that that's the first part, right? First step, step. Um, but we often hear people saying, there are leaders and there are followers, right? And the [00:41:50] assumption is there are folks who probably just shouldn't aspire to leadership because they are really followers.
Shelly Cameron: So they're followers because they don't know any better. So do you know that? One of, one of the things that I speak to people about is to lead from behind. So if you have a man, a manager, or we call them managers in organizations, so they should really be leading, but they're managing and they're in the leadership role. It's not every time. We don't want to get into politics too,
Moronke: but
Shelly Cameron: you have the person ahead who is supposed to be leading, but they're not leading. So what you have to do, I see too many is to lead from behind. Because I'm a leader. I love leadership. And what I do, I will lead any, any, any leader, any manager who is leading me in an organization in the wrong direction.
And I say wrong in quotes, wrong direction. I'm not going to follow someone down the wrong direction. Right? So I will lead them from behind, you know, maybe approach them. So it is all about coaching and so on. Approach them and share with them. Why don't you look at this option instead? [00:42:50] Or, you know, have you looked, have you considered this, you know, show some facts.
Have you considered this option or this way to look at it or, you know, stuff like that. And then you open the leader's mind as to, oh, and that's when they may look back at you each time to see and to share ideas with you as to how to move ahead. And people tell me that sometimes they are scared, they don't know how to do it.
But it all, leadership is also about courage, right? You have to be willing to take the step. to step up, to be able to do some of the things that needs to be done. Right. Right.
Moronke: I said we were going to come and talk about, stressful work environments, but we also know that the bad bosses Those people that you can't talk to and say, Hey, um, how about if we take this approach, for instance, um, the bad bosses are often associated with stressful work environments. So we get situations as we currently have, people don't want to come back to the office. After COVID 19 because, hey, I finally got away from those [00:43:50] awful people that I have to deal with on a daily basis. They don't necessarily get
Shelly Cameron: away from them if they're still there.
Moronke: Right. Well, you don't. And I say that, too.
We really don't. But, you know, we don't have to have that face to face confrontation with them all the time. So, we avoid dealing directly. with racism and the toxic environments. What are some of the strategies, a few of the strategies that you would give for dealing, with, uh, bad bosses, particularly, for people of color, especially when you have to deal with racist bosses who have no desire to see you progress and are undermining you at every, every turn. And associated with that is how do we manage those toxic working relationships? There's some people I know, you know, we avoid them. I mean, I see them, in the corridor when I'm, in the office or at work. And I duck into another office. So it's not to have to talk to them, [00:44:50] because they just, they just drive you nuts. How do you manage, bad bosses and those horrible, co -workers?
Shelly Cameron: So, Again, it's going to come back to courage and, um, you know, standing up and stepping up. What you, what is, you look at their leadership style. What is the type of leadership style that they have and can you work with that style? So, it, again, it's going to come back to what I said is a lot of, um, work that you have to put. Because understanding someone's leadership style, there's no way for you to understand it if you've never been educated on it.
What is their type of leadership style? And then you're able to conform and adapt yourself, adapt yourself to that leadership style. So if the person is, uh, and I don't want to touch on the politics again, but if you have someone who is an authoritarian what you're going to find is that if you yourself approach them with that authoritarian style, then heads are going to roll.
Right. So, you have to be flexible in knowing that, okay, if this is the way that person works, you have to find out how it [00:45:50] is that you're going to approach them. You yourself have to adapt, right? Adopt a different leadership style that will, um, help you to confront them with certain things. And confrontation does not mean violence. It does not mean hard, being difficult and anything like that. It just means how are you going to approach them. Approach them with a style that is, um, one that you can, the person will listen to you. You know they like something, watch them to understand how do they react in different situations.
And in that case, you adopt that style and you know when to talk. Sometimes, um, employees or other managers want to talk with their leaders about something. Sometimes it takes patience. It takes patience because you have to wait until the right time. Sometimes it doesn't give you the right time. As in a, in a crisis, it doesn't give you the right time, but still, there are times when you have to adopt different styles in order to deal with the person.
You also have the expectations. What are they expecting, expecting from you? Right? What are they expecting from you? What is the perception that they have? How, how does it [00:46:50] look to them? Looking at at the end of the month, you're doing your financials and most companies check their financials at least once a month, quarter, you know, mid-year and all of that. If you're not meeting it, how are you going to approach them? So look at, those are just some examples of how you can, um, deal with it. Of course, performance is a big thing as well. So, just be proactive and do the work behind the scenes first, and then you strategize as to how. Again, these things that we're going through, this short period of time that we have to speak, does not do it justice.
No. But these are just some things that we can go through and apply some strategies. Absolutely, and that's why it's
Moronke: important for listeners to get the book, because you, You lay it out in terms of, um, approaches to take on this. And, uh, quickly before, I let you go. One of the hardest part for people who want to switch jobs, particularly if they want to switch careers, is identifying [00:47:50] those transferable skills. You'd think that this is something that's relatively straightforward and easy to do, but it's actually very, very hard.
Shelly Cameron: It is very hard.
Moronke: What, tips can you give us on how we can do this?
Shelly Cameron: Transferable skills. So it depends on the path that you want to get into.
So we can look at, um, we were talking before and I'm thinking a simple one. And we were talking before. Um, okay, let's give an example. You have a house keeper in a hotel and a housekeeper. I don't know if you recognize that in during COVID, hotels, everything locked it down, right? So hotels lost a lot of money and that industry was number one that was affected. And, um, all of these persons were laid off. They didn't know what to do. So, in the end, what I found that they ended up doing, a lot of them, is they started their own business. So, they started their own business. They used the skills that they had [00:48:50] as housekeeping in a hotel, and they created a business, obviously that is outside of their league. They would have to learn certain things to create a business because they have to pay their taxes on the business and all of that kind of thing. And they created, um, that transferable skill. So they did not apply that skill to the hotel industry anymore.
They ended up going into homes. They go representing themselves. So that is a simple one that I can, mention. You have to others you have your business management skills and individuals can transfer.
And I'm talking a lot about entrepreneurship now. So you have your business skills and there are lots of, um, since COVID, a lot of, um, individuals have decided to start their own business. So what are the skills that you have that you can use to create like a business plan for others, a group of small business owners who must create a, uh, a business plan?
So that is just an area that you can pick up to look at it. HR managers, [00:49:50] HR managers have psychology, psychological coaching skills. They can transfer out as well. Because they have to manage and coach managers on how to manage their people. And that's a transferable skill as well. As I said, we don't have enough time to get into a deep dive. But at least those, I'm hoping that those Simple, um, examples would help. Absolutely.
Moronke: And I think, that this is also the time to reach out to someone like yourself as a coach who can help tease these things out, because as you said with your resume, um, sometimes we just write the job title without actually thinking about what you did and the skills that you brought to the table.
Shelly Cameron: And that's what I have been very good at with individuals. So resume is not necessarily about formatting, resume is about content. It's about what did you do? Did you do training to other persons? And then can you use that training into an organization? Can a teacher become a trainer in an organization? Can a trainer [00:50:50] become a teacher? Because people do all kinds of things. They do. They do, but they do
Moronke: need to switch jobs. Yes, but they do need professional, um, coaches and folks like yourself to, to guide them through this. And that's why, this book, your career Ditch It, Switch It is critical. Tell us very quickly as we leave Shelly, how can we How can they get hold of this book?
Shelly Cameron: Okay, so I will, and I will tell you that, but before I do that, I'll just share with you the concept of ditching it or switching it. It is, you're switching your job if you want to go from one career into the next, or if you want to stay in a, in a company, the organization that you're in, you can switch from if you're an admin and you want to go into IT, for example, you can switch as well into the same organization. You can take a lateral move or you can get a promotion. As far as ditching is concerned, ditching is, ditching it is getting out of the organization altogether or ditching it is also getting out of the career altogether into something else.[00:51:50]
And they can find the book on amazon. com or they can also reach out to me at shelleycameron. com and I'm on Instagram at drshelleyc underscore success.
Moronke: All right, Shelley, you are amazing. A lot of good information here. I have learned an awful lot. So we're going to talk to you, in the next episode on another one of your books, a review of women immigrants and the challenges that they face. And this is a perspective on higher education in the United States. This should be fascinating as was this particular conversation. So look forward to talking to you then. Thank you.
Shelly Cameron: Yes, you're welcome.
