What's Going On? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean
What's Going On? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean
Remembering Abimbola Ogunbanjo and His Vision of Transforming Nigeria
This episode is dedicated to the memory of the late Abimbola Ogubanjo, former head of the Nigerian Stock Exchange and an esteemed figure in Nigerian corporate law, who died in a helicopter crash in California on February 9. The crash also claimed the lives of the CEO of Access Holdings, Herbert Wigwe, his wife, and son. Their legacy continues to resonate around the world.
Our conversation with Abi, a pivotal force in Nigeria's legal landscape, sheds light on the transformation of the Nigerian Stock Exchange and the evolving specialization within the legal profession. Abi's unique journey from banking to becoming a cornerstone in Nigeria's oldest indigenous law firm is an odyssey that mirrors the country's own legal metamorphosis.
The narrative then shifts to the frontlines of Nigeria's capital market, where the digital revolution is making waves. We peel back the layers of MTN's digital IPO success and scrutinize the strategies that could magnetize foreign investment to Nigeria. Join us in the conversation about infrastructure, foreign exchange stabilization, and the pivotal question of privatization.
As we cast our gaze towards Nigeria's horizon, we consider the unmined potential of Nigeria's youthful populace and the fintech sector's explosive growth. We explore the profound link between taxation, quality governance, and the social contract that underpins Nigeria's society's fabric. Abi's conversation not only covers the intersections of political stability and economic sustainability, but he also shares a deeply personal crusade against cervical cancer, reminding us that behind every statistic, there's a human story waiting to be told.
Our hearts are heavy as we extend our deepest condolences to the family of Abimbala Ogubanjo, or Abby as he was known to his friends. A visionary and remarkable guest on our podcast what's Going On Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean, abby's untimely passing is a profound loss and our thoughts are with his loved ones during this difficult time. We also express condolences to the family of Herbert Wigway, the CEO of Access Bank, who perished along with his wife and son on that fateful day in California, February 9. In memory of Abby's vibrant spirit, we invite you to revisit the insightful episode he shared with us as we celebrate his talents and dedication to advancing Nigeria. Hello and welcome to What's Going On? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean.
grace:Join us as we follow social and economic development issues in and around Africa and the Caribbean. If it relates to Africa, the Caribbean and the people of the African diaspora, we'll talk about it. What's going on? Eyes on Africa and the Caribbean wants you to stay connected to the people and places that you love, so join us.
Moronke:Where are your hosts? Moronke Oshin-Martin and Grace Ocean?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Come on, guys.
Moronke:As the COVID-19 pandemic continues to bat our economies worldwide, people around the world are reassessing the state of affairs and their country's well-being. Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo, the head of Nigerian Exchange Limited, ngx, hosted the first annual NGX Capital Markets Conference that brought together leading policymakers, financial experts, business leaders, investors, international development partners and regulators to discuss ways to increase the collaboration among key players in the nation's economy in order to drive productive investments that would accelerate an elevated and digitized capital market. Today, I have the pleasure of talking to Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo, also known as Abbi. To his friends, abbi recently engineered and oversaw the transition of the 60-year-old Nigerian Stock Exchange, making it what it is today. Welcome, abbi, to what's Going On. I'm Izon. Afrika and the Caribbean.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Thank you.
Moronke:You're a second-generation leader and lawyer in Nigeria's oldest indigenous law firm. How do you feel about the profession in Nigeria and its place in the world of corporate law and litigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, I started practicing law in 1990. Actually, law is my second degree. I studied business administration as my first degree and I worked briefly in banking Chase Manhattan Bank.
Moronke:Oh, so you're kind of like an American at heart too.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Correct, correct, correct. My first life was as a student of a US University in Switzerland, where I studied business administration OK, and I returned to Nigeria and I worked in Chase Manhattan Bank for a couple of years three years before I returned to the UK to study law OK, and I've been practicing law ever since I graduated from the Nigerian Law School in 1990. And one thing I'll give corporate lawyers is that we have a overview of the economy. So no matter which area you specialize in, in practice you tend to have a general knowledge of bits and pieces of every aspect of the economy. That's one of the benefits of being a corporate lawyer, and I found that since I started practicing, that law in Nigeria is being getting to be a very specialized area. So you're not. When I first started out, we didn't have specialists, but now, with incursion into the profession by foreign law firms, you're getting to see that lawyers are beginning to specialize in areas like shipping, construction law, infrastructure, banking, finance, these things, and so this wasn't the order of the day when I started practicing law. So that's one of the changes that I've seen in the legal profession, but unfortunately I can only speak for the corporate law side.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:I was a litigator when I first started out practicing, because I actually was doing a lot of shipping law in my early, early years. I did that for two, three years. Then I became slightly disenchanted and a bit frustrated with the slow pace of the legal system Let me put it that way of the judicial system. It takes you ages to get a decision and so I got frustrated with that and I left shipping and I started focusing on commercial and corporate practice.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:But as we see practice today, I'm seeing that law firms are getting bigger, their partnerships, their consolidations, and I foresee that firms are going to be bigger in the future. There's going to be more consolidations as the founders of those firms begin to retire. So folks like myself who are approaching retirement age will soon be thinking about how to pass on the baton, bearing in mind that the law firm which I manage is currently a limited partnership which is run by myself. It's a family law firm, but it's unsustainable as a family law firm Because I have no offspring or relatives who are, I could say are, part of business. So ultimately we have to think about opening it up into either a business combination and any form of arrangement that enables it to sustain itself in the long run.
Moronke:So you talked earlier about law now being very specialized. Is that for you a good thing, or is it a bad thing?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, you know you're still going to have the general practitioner, a man who can, who professes to be a divorce lawyer, he professes to be a shipping lawyer, professes to be a banker, a banking lawyer.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:He wants to just do everything. But because of the demands of the consumer, of the clients. Today, the demands are much, much higher from the legal practitioner that you'll find that a general practitioner will find him or herself struggling to meet up with the client's demands, particularly when time is so, so, so important for the clients. So if a client contacts you from New York and he says, abbey, I need that information within the next three, four hours to turn it around, you don't have the luxury of time to start trying to learn that particular aspect of law that that client wants. What you need to do is to say all right, I've heard you, tom, I'm going to give it to my partner, who is a specialist in employment, and that lawyer will look at it and will turn it around in three or four hours. So I think that's the benefit specialization brings about efficiency and just general knowledge.
Moronke:I think, using the example that you use when we talk about, especially here in the US, when we talk about looking for a lawyer, we want, if it's a divorce lawyer, we want a divorce lawyer and I want to hear that you have X number of years' experience in that field or if it's an employment lawyer or an immigration lawyer. The notion of going to a general practitioner sounds so strange to me. But you're saying that that's still where it is now in Nigeria, or is that changing too? The other question behind that is so, with your firm, are you going to be thinking about a merger with another firm?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Okay. So, like I said, we are tending towards moving to specialized practices. What we do not have yet are boutique specialized practices. So, you know, in the UK and the West, you find that there's some firms that are just generally known for special practices. So if I say, for example, a boutique law firm in Germany that is known solely for tax or just solely for employment, we haven't gotten to that stage.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:We are at a stage where you have a corporate law firm that has different multidisciplinary focus, you have a section that deals with litigation, you have departments and partners that focus on specialized areas of practice. So we are gradually moving away from the general practitioner, which is what we used to do previously. As we approach 2022, I am seeing more consolidations of law firms because of the fact that everybody is trying to specialize. You are trying to get the best of every aspect of practice as we go forward at Criso Gobanjo, yes, we'll be looking at the consolidation. We'll be looking at the possibility of a merger or even vertical integrations, depending on how we see the market at the time.
Moronke:Okay, and how are women doing in this field? Are they breaking into the same extent that we see in the West?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, women are doing very, very well, especially in the corporate world. You are finding that, for example, in the banking industry today you are finding that you have, I think about four women or three women who are CEOs of the top tier one banks in Nigeria today. So that's about four women out of, I would say I think about seven tier one banks and there are four of them that are headed by women in the banking industry. So, yes, women are doing very, very well, especially in law as well, where you didn't have many senior advocates. When I say senior advocates, in England they call them Queen's Council. I don't think you have that category of in the US now, in the US, but in England they call them Queen's Council and you're having more and more of Queen's Council. The equivalent here in Nigeria is called senior advocates and they're pointing a number of them, a lot of career women who in practice, also are not.
Moronke:So are these young women, or are these middle career women? What are we talking about?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:We're talking about ladies in the mid 40s, 50s. Oh yes, they're doing very well. They're doing very well, but of course that is in the corporate law side. You're finding that in litigation can still be a bit strenuous and rigorous and you won't find as many women in that area of practice, because it's quite strenuous. Let me put it that way.
Moronke:Okay, so the courts are the courts functioning to the extent you said earlier that it was frustrating when you were doing shipping litigation? Are the courts still as frustrating or have they become more efficient when it comes to litigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, I haven't been to court since maybe about 25 years ago, but from my guys who go I mean we have meetings every Friday when I do get feedback the feedback I get from my colleagues in the litigation field is that there's a lot of frustration, there's a lot of delay. Their colleagues also used delay tactics to prolong cases, and so you find that the wheels of justice grind very, very slowly because of the fact that our colleagues and the system does not enable these matters to be heard expeditiously. So there's a lot of work that still needs to be done in that area. In terms of the wheels of justice, a lot of reforms have been affected in recent times, but I think there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I think judge's welfare also needs to be addressed. That needs to improve. I think that the independence of the judiciary still needs to be strengthened so that decisions are free, fair and removed from any partiality. So, in my view, there's a lot of work that still needs to be done in that process.
Moronke:Okay. You've been at the forefront of the transition from the old style Nigerian stock exchange, which I understand is 60 years old this year, to this demutalized NGX Niger exchange limited. As chairman or president of this new body, what are your goals now that the new structure is in place?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, you know, I've been on the board of the old Nigerian stock exchange for about eight years now, but I chaired it. Well, let's put it this way. So I was the last chairman of the mutual exchange that's the Nigerian stock exchange and I am the first chairman of the demitrized entity. Sorry, I was the last president. So when you're in a mutual, you don't have the chairman, you have the president of the of the council. Ok, so I handled the transition from the old to the new, and so what I've, what I what I feel is a sense of deja vu, and I say that because the very establishment of the stock exchange my father was a solicitor to the creation and to the establishment of the of the stock exchange in the first place.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Oh, I feel that a lot has been achieved already, even within the first few months of the transition, given that we've only had three or four months of the transition. We're we already a publicly listed company and our shares are already being traded on the Nigerian, on the NGX, and, and there are a lot of myriad of opportunities that lie ahead of us as a demitrized entity. Of course, we're looking to accelerate new growth platforms, we're looking at cross border opportunities. We're looking to invest in new payment platforms. We're looking to invest in central counterparts, the clearing houses. As a matter of fact, we are just launching this Thursday, the Nigerian the company called the NG clearing, which is a clearinghouse for derivatives.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:This was this was a company that the exchange invested in three years ago and it's now about to be formally launched on Thursday. There are a number of there are a number of areas that we're looking to strengthen our core in data and analytics technology services. We're looking to form or enter into strategic partnerships with FinTechs, etc. So I mean, there's a there's a whole, a whole load of opportunities that demitrization affords, affords them exchange, and we're looking at the and we're looking at all of them, but, of course, we're looking at them step by step, ok, ok.
Moronke:So I know you had a conference about a week ago, the first GX conference. I believe this was November 30, I believe and in that conference the focus was on calling for increased collaboration among key players in Nigeria's economy and I've got a quarter here toward driving productive investments that would accelerate an elevated and digitized capital market. You had a lot of influential leaders at that conference, which is a good thing because it means that you know you're bringing everybody on board. But can you explain to us and I know you started talking about it, can you explain what needs to happen, because this is so exciting if we can get it to actually happen what needs to happen to achieve these goals, rather to drive productive investments and to accelerate digitized capital markets in Nigeria and, for all practical purposes, in in Africa too? Well, thank you very much for that question.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:The essence of that conference was really to bring together leading regulators, our regulators, the stakeholders in the capital market, including our issuers, to come together to try and brainstorm on what we need to do, what we need to be doing to elevate the capital market, to try to meet the objectives of each of the stakeholders. And so we had speakers from the Securities Exchange Commission, we had private equity representatives, we had industrialists, the leading world, the number two cement manufacturer, a company in Nigeria, buah Alaji Rabi, samad Rabiou. They were all there and what we tried to do was to brainstorm to see what did we need to do to facilitate ease of the market, of operating in the market, and a number of these issues that were raised touched on the market. These issues that were raised touched on deficiencies, but they also recognized that we had come quite some distance from where we were 10 years ago. And so you find that, for example, that very day we had the conference, we had the biggest IPO in Nigeria over the past five years, being launched by the MTN telecommunications company, and that IPO was launched digitally, which is the first ever in Nigeria. And so those are some of the things, some of the strides that we've made over the years in making access to market easier, improving the experience of the retail investor.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:These are some of the things that we've done, but of course there's a lot of work to still be done, which is outside of the purview of the exchange itself the macroeconomic issues which we do not have a direct handle on.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:So you'll find that foreign investors, foreign portfolio investors, still have issues with our foreign exchange management. They can't or they will not invest in an economy where they can't exit the market when they want to exit the market due to the lack of foreign exchange. So some of those challenges falls squarely on the table of the Central Bank of Nigeria to formulate policies that will encourage ease of capital repatriation. Of course, as an exchange, we continue to advocate for policies that will ease doing of business in Nigeria, and so that's to the best of our ability. This is what we try to achieve with the conference and of course it's the inaugural conference. There will be lessons that are taken from that engagement. There will be another one next year, perhaps not in Abuja, but in Lagos or some other venue, but it's the beginning of the dialogue that the exchange is having with its stakeholders, because we believe that it requires a collective effort to improve the fortunes of the exchange and the economy at large.
Moronke:I absolutely agree with that, that you've started the dialogue and I think it must continue, because when you're able to bring all these people to the table at the same time, you can begin to move things forward, and the fact that you're also engaged with them, with all the parties, is key, everybody bringing their specialty and their knowledge to the table. Which country contributes at this point the most foreign direct investment to Nigeria? And let me make that a double barrel question what needs to happen to attract foreign investment? Those are two questions right there. They're connected, so I wanted to pull them together.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, From my records I understand that the UK represents. The United Kingdom represents the largest foreign direct investor to Nigeria, followed by South Africa due to its telecoms MTN. Then, of course, you have the French that have the oil interests here, Total, and also the US United States with their ExxonMobil and Chevron. That is the information that I have in terms of who contributes most to Nigeria in terms of foreign direct investment.
Moronke:So it's still pretty much in the oil sector For the most part.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, for the most part because of the fact that you have. Actually, when you say oil in terms of foreign direct investment, you would find that it's the telecoms, the South African businesses and the manufacturing, because the oil is extractive, they're taking out, they're not really putting it in. So I wouldn't think it's the oil industry. It's more of the telecoms people and the manufacturing industries and the tech industries that are the ones that are bringing money into the system. That's the FDI, that's real capital into the system. Yes, but I think, in terms of what we could do to attract more FDI, the list is endless really, because we all know that there is no economy that can grow dramatically without FDI. Our inability to attract FDI is the bane of our problem, because we all know that Nigeria has rising debts and low revenues. So our cost of debt servicing, our debt servicing ratio, is literally about 87%. So with the rate at which we're borrowing every dollar we make, we're spending 87% of that and repaying that loan. Wow. And so there's so many issues that's affecting FDI, ranging from insecurity to just not having the right policies, not right planning. The political will isn't there.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:In order to make this Nigeria a more attractive investment destination, it requires improving our infrastructure, restoring stability to the foreign exchange market, strengthening the rule of law, getting our power situation in order. Take, for example, nigeria only generates 4,000 megawatts of power, 4,000 megawatts of power for a population of 200 million people. When you compare that to South Africa, south Africa generates 60,000 megawatts of power. So you compare that. You see how far behind we are in terms of industrialization, because there is no economy that can be industrialized without power, absolutely.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:So these are some of the things that needs to be addressed. The loans that we're getting are we channeling them properly into the right productive sectors of the economy or are we just using the loans to pay back and refinancing? What are we using those loans for? Are they being used judiciously? So, some of those things we need to look at, some of the dead assets that we have. We have a lot of dead assets in the hands of the government that needs to be privatized. What is government still doing? Sitting on all these assets which are not yielding, they're not productive.
Moronke:Right, not yielding value.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Should they not be commercialized? Yet they're not yielding value. Should they not be commercialized? The airports I know maybe you haven't been to our airports for a while, but the state of our airports leaves much to be desired, and the airport of any country is the gateway into the country. What does it take to build an airport? I know there's a new airport in Lagos now being about to be opened, but these are the sort of infrastructure that we should be spending our resources on, not on things that recurrent expenditure as it is.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:The cost of governance in itself, with the form of governance that we have, is very expensive. We can't afford it. Check the cost of what you're paying senators, aides, politicians. It's way, way way out of whack, and this is why we find ourselves where we find ourselves in this country. Of course, you can't increase revenue by increasing taxes, because a country that increases taxes, its citizens expect the service from the government. But in a country where you're still responsible for literally your entire ecosystem, from your road to your water treatment, to your generator, to your own security, so where are those taxes going? So we really need to look at the social contract between the people in the state to see where it's gone wrong and see how we can fix that and get the people on site and get Nigerians first of all investing in the country, before we even start talking about foreign direct investment. Let's get investment internally first, before foreign direct investment. Once internal investment is boosted, you will find that foreign direct investment will follow sweet.
Moronke:Absolutely. We're talking about FinTech earlier. What's going on there? It would seem that this is where we would get the most bang for all box. And how important is this industry to Nigeria's growth and development from your perspective?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at the demographic of the average Nigerian, 60% of the population is under the age of 30. So you need to engage with this population. They're the Gen Z and the millennials, and so, whatever you're doing, you must be digitally savvy, whatever offerings, and that's why you're seeing that ICT contributed about 15% to GDP in 2020. Nigeria has the largest tech market on the African continent. We have about 90 tech hubs and the world's largest tech giants IBM, microsoft, google, facebook, google, google, cisco. They all have presence in Nigeria. Over 72% of the population now have access to mobile phones, so the sector is estimated to be really one of the growth sectors in the years to come.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:But, having said that, there is a very low digital skills amongst our youth, and tech training infrastructure is very absent, and so, therefore, it doesn't translate into jobs. So if you have folks, young kids, who are just good in walking into internet cafes and playing with the computers and doing advanced fee frauds, they will always do that if you don't train them properly, right? So you've got to train these guys. You've got to make them employable, because they're very smart, and so once you can invest in the human capital development of these young men and women.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:It's the very foundation of the fintech revolution that we're experiencing in Nigeria. I mean, there's so much more figures that I can give you around how much capital has been raised for fintechs, but I just don't have them handy. But, in fact, hold on a second. Somebody just still sent me something around that today that Nigeria has raised the highest amount of foreign currency for fintechs on the African continent. Four unicorns have emerged out of Nigeria in the last two years. So these are all the things that show you that the potential is there in this country and all we need to do is to harness these youths that are going to drive it. Harness them, educate them properly and give them a conducive working environment.
Moronke:You know, one of the things that I have been reading over the past year and a half or so is that a lot of young, tech savvy, knowledgeable young people are leaving Nigeria because of a lack of opportunities, so they're taking their skills out of the country in order to grow. That's a problem for Nigeria if you're losing savvy and trained tech folks to the developed world. I mean some of the people that I work with in Nigeria. One of them, who actually works on my website, said that it's very, very hard in Nigeria to keep the business going because of some of what you've said the infrastructure issues, which is primary. Everything that you do is dependent on the internet, and if the internet is not stable and I hope it's not going the same way as the electricity is, but if that's not stable, there's very little that you can do and it does, in fact, hurt business an awful lot. Is that what you've been hearing too?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, I mean without a doubt in the embassies are full of applications. The brain drain is real, not only in the youth area but even in the medical side. You're finding that because of the COVID pandemic, there's a big, big demand for doctors and nurses in the Middle East, in Europe and in Canada. So you're finding that a lot of our nurses, you know, when they compare the pay that they're getting in the country, they compare it to the cost of living. It just doesn't require a scientist to say, look, we need to get out of here. It just doesn't make sense. And of course, you know, once they're abroad they form part of the diaspora and they send money back to their folks back here. So there's a massive brain drain. You know the amount of Nigerians applying every day to go to Canada, to migrate. And the young ones, you can't really blame them. You know the infrastructure for them to learn and to excel is really lacking. So until we can make the environment conducive to them, I'm afraid this is going to continue.
Moronke:Okay, and I just wanted to follow up with this because I saw this in a Twitter post. Someone wrote that I mean, a lot of people say, oh, nigeria will never recover or get to the point that it needs to be. But someone wrote in a Twitter post that Nigeria's economy still has an opportunity to balance up and get it right via investment in the youth population. If we configure out how to get more than 70 million young Nigerians working in productive and steady jobs, this will do a lot for the economy and help resolve some of the country's other economic problems. How true is that for you and any ideas on how we can begin that process?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, I mean, it is very true. You know the unemployment. I think our unemployment today is in the order of 38%. Wow, and yes, it's very high. A lot of these kids are under 35, they have nothing doing, and that's only even the southern part of Nigeria. I mean, you must be aware that we have youths in the northern part of Nigeria where there's a real case of banditry going on, and one of the spiritual thinking of the Bukko Haram is that education is forbidden, and so they do not want their youth to go to school. So you have the population. The unemployment is actually much higher when you factor in those young ones in the north. And so, until you have peace and stability, nobody can study in an environment of violence and an environment of criminality. Until you have peace and stability all over the country, you're going to have these challenges, and what the government needs to be doing is to be creating job opportunities. Job opportunities. You know the Nigerian, the typical Nigerian, is very resilient and always believes that one day he will make it.
Moronke:Yes.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:And all he's looking for is the signal of hope. Yes, once you give him a signal of hope, he will get on that and that train and he will work and pray and make sure he gets it. He doesn't want to be a criminal. They're not born criminals. They're born. They're very industrious and all he wants is the setting and opportunity to be industrious. So the government should just create that enabling platform for these guys to go to school, because once you have an educated workforce, inevitably that educated workforce now has an opportunity to be employable.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:What you don't want is an uneducated workforce and moving that uneducated workforce into an unemployment market. So for me, it's a very, very straightforward thing Create those jobs, even if it is in agriculture, where you, you know Nigeria has a lot of arable land. Give them opportunities in agriculture. Give them opportunities in mining. Give them access to cheap loans, because I mean, you know, we all know, that it's very expensive in Nigeria. Give them access to cheap loans and make sure that you have structures in place where they don't default and that they pay back. Create more technical colleges, create more tech hubs All these things. It requires investment and which is why I spoke to you earlier about investing in productive sectors of the economy. If the money is not spent wisely and is just spent on recurrent issues, you know, on a bloated governance structure or wastages and corruption, we will continue in this circle of penury.
Moronke:And when we think about it, you know, countries like India and even China up until a few years ago were practically in the same situation as we are in, but they have been able to generate opportunities and jobs through those small loans, small business loans that you mentioned, because everybody knows that Nigerians are very productive, they're very industrious.
Moronke:I mean, you see them all over the world and wherever they are, they are building businesses. They are very productive here in the United States as well as Britain. So it's sad to see that we cannot make the same kind of moves that India and China did in terms of those small loans, in terms of those technical colleges and bringing the expertise into if we don't already have them and I think we do to help train them, as you say, so they are educated and they can move into the job market at the same time. I mean, I see a lot of similarities there and I don't see why Nigeria cannot be in the situation that India is in at this particular time in terms of foreign investment, in terms of their economy and also even China. So I thought that's important and it's something that I've been thinking about for a long time in terms of why we can't do these things because we know what needs to be done, as you've pointed.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:You've been saying yes, but you see, you can't divorce the commercial growth of this country from the political issues. You have to get the political issues sorted out, yeah.
Moronke:That's the heart of it, isn't it?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, that's the heart of it. You see, there are many people who have been many tribes, feeling disenfranchised, feeling aggrieved. There's no unity or purpose yet in the country. The only thing that brings us together is soccer. When we're playing soccer, then we're all one. Outside of soccer, people have around the bare palace. People are always grumbling. The Hebrew man is grumbling, the Yoruba man is grumbling, the Northern man is grumbling.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:So first thing to do is to actually address those issues of equity and justice. Once you address that, then you can find that the other areas of a productive and economic growth will begin to happen, because if you're not talking from the same script, you'll always have that challenge. There's so many many things that we can talk about. That is what is holding us back. Some may say this issue of federal character, for example, that there must be a minister from each state, representative of each state, in the government, in the cabinet. So why must that be? Is that not creating further costs of governance by having a minister representative of each state? As a matter of fact, you'll find that the complaint of some other people will be that why is this ministry loaded with certain people from a certain geographical region of the country. So there is so much. Until you have peace of mind and people know that everything is done equally, people won't be sailing, won't be in the same boat, it'll just be a reluctant effort. You're so right.
Moronke:I mean you put your finger right on it. Until we sort out the political issues, we really can't move too far forward on the commercial Moving away from that. One last question you were recently appointed by the nonprofit organization Oncology to serve as one of three global ambassadors for the cervical cancer free Nigeria campaign. Tell us a little bit about that and how big a problem is cervical cancer in Nigeria, if you have that data on hand?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Well, I mean, I was invited to be an ambassador for global oncology and I willingly jumped at the invitation because I know cancer is a scourge, having lost my mother to cancer, in fact, which she passed on in my own very hands, in my own very eyes, in hospital. I'm so sorry. I didn't hesitate to thank you, to take up that role and, to my understanding, I'm not a physician or a doctor, but to my understanding, it's one of those cancers that is very, very avoidable. Yes, it is, it's very, yes, it's very avoidable. But yet when you hear the statistics of the people but mainly women, but the women who die from it, it's unbelievable, simply because they did not take the vaccine or they were not aware of the vaccine.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:So, out of the role of the that I'm playing as an ambassador, even just the advocacy, just even bringing the knowledge of cervical cancer to the populace and how it can be cured or it can be avoided simply by a vaccine I can't give you numbers, but I know it's a very large number, and what we've tried to do is to influence government, to create a policy around cervical cancer so that the medical, the doctors, the hospitals also play their part in educating mothers and young girls on the necessity to have this vaccine.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Of course, they've got to battle also with the stigma that our understanding is associated with it, because there's this stigma that we hear that people women feel that it causes. It has other implications which could be adverse and, from what I've been informed, nothing could be further from the truth in that regard. So, yes, I'm proud to be an ambassador for global oncology and I'm proud to say that we also just recently adopted General Obasanjo also as an ambassador oh good For global oncology. And he's promised to take the message to Abuja also to see how they could get a policy going and begin to educate more Nigerians on the need to take the vaccine.
Moronke:I thought that was wonderful when I heard that and I was thinking they chose the right person on this. I'm glad that we're looking at this because this is a big problem for women, particularly women in developing countries, because cervical cancer is a silent killer. The symptoms are not always present, so you have to be familiar with it and understand the things that you can do. As you say, it's a preventable disease, but we have to be aware of it first. So I know this must be a different kind of challenge for you from all the hard stuff that you talk about with the commerce and investment and all the rest of it. So who knows, maybe it's a passion, absolutely, and don't we love getting involved in passion?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:Yes, I don't see it as work, I see it as just a passion.
Moronke:That's wonderful. I really appreciate that and I really appreciate you talking to me today because I know I've just taken up a big chunk of your time, although I'm kind of glad because I think I probably slowed you down a little bit, give you some time to think about other things but I really do appreciate the time that you've given us today. You've already talked to us about what you'd be doing in the future. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you want folks to know, or did I already cover everything?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:You really did cover everything. I just pray for me that my old man is going to be 98.
Moronke:Oh, congratulations.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo:I'm praying that he makes it to 100 years of age another two years, and so I just pray that he keeps in good shape and that this COVID thing goes away sooner than later.
Moronke:We all hope so and we all pray too, but we wish him well. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for the time and that is a wrap for 2021.
grace:As this year comes to an end, we just want to thank our listeners for your continued support. There's a lot more content to come in the new year, so please stay tuned. Happy New Year.
Moronke:If you enjoyed the show, we'd love to hear from you.
grace:You can also follow us on Facebook at Eyes on Africa Caribbean and on our website EyesOnAfricaCaribbeancom. Until next time, thanks for listening.
