It Starts With Attraction
Marriage on Autopilot? Reignite Intimacy & Communication with Laura Heck
Have a question you want answered? Submit it here!
Feeling like roommates instead of lovers? You're not alone! Many couples fall into a routine where intimacy and communication fade.
But guess what? You CAN reclaim the passion you once shared!
Join Kimberly Beam Holmes, and Laura Heck your guides in this episode back to abundant love and deep connection in your marriage!
Take a deep dive in how to:
• Recognize the signs your marriage has become boring
• Maintain curiosity and interest in your marriage
• Rebuild strong communication so you can truly connect ️
• Heal from affairs and restore relationships
Don't wait! Listen now and start your journey to a happier, more fulfilling marriage! Reclaim the passion.
Listen to Marriage Therapy Radio!
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes
Follow our other channels!
📺 https://youtube.com/@UC7gCCAhhQvD3MBpKpI_4g6w
📺 https://youtube.com/@UCEOibktrLPG4ufxidR8I4UQ
Have a question you want answered? Submit it here!
Feeling like roommates instead of lovers? You're not alone! Many couples fall into a routine where intimacy and communication fade.
But guess what? You CAN reclaim the passion you once shared!
Join Kimberly Beam Holmes, and Laura Heck your guides in this episode back to abundant love and deep connection in your marriage!
Take a deep dive in how to:
• Recognize the signs your marriage has become boring
• Maintain curiosity and interest in your marriage
• Rebuild strong communication so you can truly connect ️
• Heal from affairs and restore relationships
Don't wait! Listen now and start your journey to a happier, more fulfilling marriage! Reclaim the passion.
Listen to Marriage Therapy Radio!
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes
Follow our other channels!
📺 https://youtube.com/@UC7gCCAhhQvD3MBpKpI_4g6w
📺 https://youtube.com/@UCEOibktrLPG4ufxidR8I4UQ
Is your marriage on autopilot? Well, today we're gonna talk about how to reignite intimacy and passion within your relationship. Hi, my name is Jason. I'm the podcast producer of it Starts With Attraction, and today we are re-airing an episode that aired all the way back in 2022, episode 98, I believe with Laura Heck. Now we get a lot of questions, especially recently, about marriage, with Kimberly being the CEO of Marriage Helper. We get a lot of questions about marriage, specifically about how to reignite intimacy and passion, and so that's what we're going to be talking about today. That's what Laura and Kimberly talk a little bit about. They talk about a ton of stuff, all about marriage, and I can't wait for you to hear the episode. It's a great one, and so, without further ado, let's dive in to today's episode.
Speaker 2:Today I'm speaking to a marriage and family therapist. Her name is Laura Heck, and we talk about so many different things. We talk about self-care. We talk about the top issues that she sees with her clients, which surprise spoiler alert maybe is a better way to say it. A lot of it has to do with affairs. We talk about how to work on yourself. We talk about communication conflict all the things you don't want to miss listening to this entire episode. Let's dive in. I am joined here today with Laura Heck, who I actually met a couple of months ago when I was on her podcast Marriage Therapy Radio. Such a fun time. I love what you and Zach, your co-host, do over there, so I'm excited to have a conversation with you today, laura.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, I would be the better half, so you really lucked out I did.
Speaker 2:I could tell. I could tell from that day we did the interview. Yeah Well, tell the audience, the listeners, a little bit about what it is that you do and why you got involved in it.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, so I mean I'm primarily my day job. What I do to make money is I am a helper, I'm a relationship expert. So I'm a certified Gottman therapist, which is a specialty certification that I go through through the Gottman Institute to be able to work with couples. But I'm also a licensed marriage and family therapist and then in process of becoming an ASEC certified sex therapist. So I am all things couples and so I work with couples in Washington and Utah and Oregon virtually, and I have a lot of couples that are kind of in that same, virtually, and I have a lot of couples that are kind of in that same I don't know life cycle that I am in as a mom, as an entrepreneur, as a busy, athletic human being, just people trying to spin all the plates at all the times and also try and keep the relationship alive and functioning and long lasting and purposeful. And so, yeah, I work with couples virtually as a therapist.
Speaker 3:I also have a podcast, Marriage Therapy Radio, which you had mentioned. I host couples workshops through the Gottman Institute called the Art and Science of Love and also the Seven Principles Workshop. I have a program called the Epic Wives Experiment that I do quarterly. Is that it. I think that might be it.
Speaker 2:Is there no more room to add anything else at the bottom? It's a lot. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, but that's I mean. It's interesting because that's what I do to make money, but I would really consider myself just like someone that is just. I'm a mom and a wife and, you know, living in this world, just trying to make meaning and purpose out of it every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So how do you balance being a working woman, a working business, mom, with time with your husband, time with your son, time to do the things you love to do? Like you said, you're an athletic person. I I literally the past, this week, this has been my life. I've been saying to myself I have to change my calendar because this is not working.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, you're not able to do the things that you really want to do.
Speaker 2:With maintaining my sanity? No, I'm not able to do all the things I want to do, and so part of me is like just how great would it be to start with a clean slate and rebuild everything the way that I want it to be. But when you're in the middle of it, you can't. You can't just drop every ball and redo it. So how do you find that balance?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I would say that it's just like a season. I think I've become really good at recognizing that. For a while, I was in a season of growth and building, which is probably where you're at right now is growth and building, and when I was in that season it was all encompassing, it was the thing that I focused on. It was, um, I kind of just recognized that I wasn't going to have balance in other areas of my life. So I kind of think, um and I like this I get this from Chalene Johnson, which is one of my favorite podcasters um and women entrepreneurs, and she says that there's like three things that you can kind of hold in your head as primary focuses and goals. And so when I was focused on growing my business and growing a name and all of that, that was what I was focused on, and my physical health might not have been as up to par, up to snuff, that I would have had it, but it was okay because I knew that that was just the season.
Speaker 3:So the season that I'm in right now is the season of kind of putting my business on autopilot. I've grown and recognizing. Now I can turn my attention toward, like, my physical health. This is the year that I'm going to compete and so that's the year that I'm growing and changing on a physical side and I'm also really tailoring my business to fit around that, which means that my hours are, my hours of operation are, only when my kiddo is in school, so that when he gets out of school I am super focused on getting him to soccer practices and cooking delicious meals for my family and being really present for my husband, who's traveling a lot. So I would say it's about recognizing the season that I'm in and knowing and accepting that that's just. That's how it's going to be for a while, and I can't do all things at a hundred percent. I can probably do three things at a hundred percent. The rest of it's going to have to be probably see quality work.
Speaker 2:That's a good recognition. What are you going to compete in?
Speaker 3:That's a really great question. I love to talk about that. So I mean, I'm a runner like you are. Are you healed, by the way? Are you running? Are you on your feet?
Speaker 2:I'm on my feet. I am jogging, okay, all right, I'm getting there, good for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have this year. I have some half marathons and it's for me, it's not just doing the half marathon, it's now I'm actually competing and trying to get certain paces and all of that. But I'm also really trying to become a triathlete and I don't know how to swim. So that's you know. Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, good for you I want to do. I want to do a Spartan race in October.
Speaker 3:Can.
Speaker 2:I tell you my Spartan race story. Oh my gosh, please tell me your Spartan race story.
Speaker 3:When my son was two, I did a Spartan race story. Oh my gosh, please tell me your Spartan race story. When my son was two, I did a Spartan race with my husband. I will text you the picture. Anyway, I broke both of my wrists on the monkey bars and I came out of the Spartan race in a double sling and my husband with the metal around his, around his neck. But you should do it because it is so cool. It is a really cool race.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, just I will not going to break both my wrists.
Speaker 3:No, you're not, no, you're not.
Speaker 2:That's my goal, yeah, wow, okay. Well, fun story, fun story. Good times for you, right? So how do you I mean so in a primarily service-based business too, with what you do? Yeah, I mean, how do you have the mental capacity to be fully present for your son and your husband at the end of the day?
Speaker 3:your son and your husband at the end of the day. Well, I mean, I use very different parts of my brain. When I'm in a service, when I'm doing therapy, it's a one-sided relationship. It's me giving to my clients and it's them sharing their stories about their life with me. So I feel like that uses part of who I am, but not all of who I am, and I get to slip into something that is much more equal, authentic, raw when I'm with my family, and so that's another side of me. So it's interesting with therapy. I've always felt like I've been able to keep this balance, because I show up with just a part of myself, not all of myself, and I think that with therapy that's how it has to be. It has to be pretty boundaried, and I get to remove some of those boundaries with my family and friends, and for me that's very freeing and energizing.
Speaker 2:That's good. Now, in your therapy work, when you work with couples, what are the top situations that you see? What are the presenting reasons people are coming to therapy with you?
Speaker 3:I think we're at maybe 30 to 40% of all couples experience some sort of betrayal in their relationship related to an outside relationship, whether it be emotional or physical, and with that that is a primary concern. But underneath it it's the drifting of two lives, it's a lot of parallel lives that end up in roommate syndrome, and that was the precursor to the affair was this roommate syndrome. But it wasn't enough to shake them out of what they were in. It was the affair that really woke them up, shook them up and said, okay, enough's enough, we need to get some help. This is a turning point. So what I'm seeing is a lot of couples that are living in this monotonous sort of lockstep of doing what life requires of them and losing that intimacy between them. But they're really great friends and they function pretty awesome as co-parents, but there just is a lack of intimacy. I see that so often with couples.
Speaker 2:Define intimacy in the way that you're talking about it for the listeners.
Speaker 3:Okay, I really love Terry Real's definition of intimacy he says, because when I say intimacy I think a lot of people are thinking about sex, sexual intimacy. But that's really one of five versions of intimacy that we can have as a couple. So Terry Real talks about there being physical intimacy, sexual intimacy so physical would be doing anything that could be active and physical together. So it could be. I experience a lot of intimacy when we're kayaking or hiking together, but it also could be. I experience a lot of intimacy when we're holding hands and we're snuggling, and it's non-sexual touching. So you have physical intimacy. Sexual intimacy that doesn't necessarily need to be intercourse, it could be anything that's sexual in nature.
Speaker 3:Then you have intellectual intimacy, that's the sharing of thoughts or ideas. It's like, hey, I was listening to NPR today and they were talking about Will Smith, blah, blah, blah. What do you think about that? And it's just sort of the sharing of those thoughts with one another. And then you have emotional intimacy, the sharing of your feelings. I think of it as, like you know, kind of giving your partner a peep show into your heart. So you're kind of opening up the trench coat and letting them in a little bit. And then you have spiritual intimacy, and that doesn't necessarily have to be related to organized religion, but it's just this idea that you have common ground between the two of you, a feeling like there's something that's bigger, beyond the two of you, that you align on. So I love Terry Real's definition because it really opens up the ways in which you can feel close and connected to your partner, that you have a shared something special that nobody else necessarily gets to tap into. And it doesn't have to be just sexual intimacy, it's more holistic than that.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. Why do you think couples lose those areas of intimacy?
Speaker 3:Gosh, that's a great question. I just I think this is I'm going to cite all my favorite people. So Esther Perel talks about when you're single.
Speaker 3:There's a whole lot if you think of individuality and togetherness as being on a continuum.
Speaker 3:When you're single, there there's this big rush toward togetherness and that big rush is finding out all the ways in which you can feel that closeness and that connection on all five of those facets.
Speaker 3:And as you move through time together you start to move a little further away from that togetherness, back the other direction, and a lot of that is kind of the assumption that you already know everything there is to know about that person. Like you know, I know that my husband is not very interested in the stuff that I'm interested in and I know that he's really interested in economics and the stock market and blah, blah, blah boring stuff. And so I start to assume, right, that I know him. And I think that intimacy fades with time because it's the assumption that you know your partner already and even with sexual intimacy, you figure out all the positions and things that get your partner to orgasm and make them feel good, and then you're done exploring, you're done being curious and looking for the novelty in those sexual experiences, in those sexual experiences. And I think that without some of that curiosity, and intentionality we lose that intimacy with one another.
Speaker 2:Well, it makes a lot of sense, though. I mean, I've been randomly listening to a lot of podcasts about dopamine recently and just how you know how that affects our brain and the want for more, and you know that pleasure, that pleasurable experience, and that's what we have most of the time in the beginning of a relationship. It's this increase in dopamine where the feelings feel really great. We're learning things we didn't know, and so over time, it's going to fade, because biologically it does. I mean right.
Speaker 2:So there is this unique, I mean, there is this, I think, drive that we continue to have just throughout life of wanting to feel good. However, how we manage that and not entering into doing things that are ultimately going to be harmful to us or our relationships. I think that's the key here. So, when we're so, when, when you're working with the people, when they get to you well, no, before I get there. So how do you encourage couples to stay curious when their minds are telling them you know everything, when they're not having those feelings, that rush of you know, butterflies in the stomach and all of those fun feelings at the beginning of a relationship, how do you fight through that?
Speaker 3:It's funny that you're talking about dopamine because I have some fun stuff I want to mention about that and not get derailed in the question that you just asked. But I will say another gentleman that I work with, nate Bagley with Growth Marriage. He talks about being your partner's drug dealer, in the sense of give your partner the dopamine hits, do things that encourage your partner to get that rush of dopamine and serotonin. And part of that is constantly reinforcing your partner and letting them know like, hey, when you do this thing, when you walk out of the shower and you have the towel around your waist and I get to see your pecs and your hairy chest and just kind of makes me feel really good, and, turned on, tell your partner that and then they get the pleasure of being like, ooh, a little rush of dopamine, a little compliment. It feels good to be complimented, reinforced, all of these positive reinforcements. And so they learn that that feels good. Not only does it feel good to hear it from your partner, but their body is also sending those dopamine hits through their, through their body, and it's reinforcing them on the inside. And so he says be your partner's drug dealer, give them little dopamine hits. You have some control over that release, and I love that. So, to go back to the question of what do you do when you start to lose that curiosity?
Speaker 3:I'm a huge fan of being interesting to your partner. Like if you start to, I like to use your own feelings as a guide that you're probably not alone. Like if you're feeling kind of bored or you're feeling like man, my, my partner's boring. Like I know everything there is to know, I, I can. I know when they're going to poop. I know, like, what they're going to say. I know everything about my partner. Use that as a guide that your partner's probably feeling the exact same way, and if that's the case, then surprise them.
Speaker 3:Be interesting. Read a book that you've never read. Like, learn something new that you've never been interested in. Share that with your partner. I think it was you that I was talking about. Were you talking about the pies? Is that you? Oh my gosh, I have used the pies with my clients so much, so I use that as a way of saying be something that you want your partner to come back to, like you had mentioned, and part of that is work on your pies. Get interesting again, and if you're interesting, you can also be interested. It interesting again and if you're interesting, you can also be interested, and I love that piece of being curious like spark some interest in yourself as well as in your partner.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's such a simple framework for people to follow and remember on a daily basis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm glad I'm talking to you because I have used the pies so much with my clients. I'm glad I'm talking to you because I have used the pies so much with my clients. You know, whether they're separated or not, it's just been an amazing way for them to grab onto it and kind of keep themselves accountable as well as like keeping their eyes on their side of the road.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, yeah, because the tendency is to want to think only about your spouse and what they need to do and what they need to change. But you can't you can't change that. Exactly no control over what they're doing. You can only control yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's been a game changer with with uh giving me something different to reinforce with couples and it's it's very easy for them to remember.
Speaker 2:Good, yay, huge one. I love that, yeah, yeah. So going back to the people who, uh, you're seeing a lot of, they've been betrayed. There's been some kind of affair whether emotional physical. So how do you help them work on restoring that? How do you help them on um? Well, what do you see? What are you seeing as the biggest hurdles at that point, Like, what are? They working through in their minds about themselves or their relationship.
Speaker 3:And what's the what's the plan from there? Yeah, um, you know, I think some of the bigger questions, especially with the ones where it's like the biggest shocker I had no idea this one blew me away Um is that here's this person that I know loves me and the interesting part is like affairs happen in deeply, deeply loving relationships and with really good people. Is the shocker that this is someone that I trust? This is someone that I love, and I'm actually truly shocked that they would hurt me in this way? And affairs are not about hurting you. It's about the person who's in the affair. There is not a thought in their mind about you. Yes, I mean, obviously there are fleeting moments, but they get very, very good at compartmentalizing and when they're in the act of talking to somebody else in a way that's inappropriate or engaging in sexual activity, whatever it might be, it's not about you. So that's a tough one for people to grapple with. Is this is someone, this is my person in the world, and I never believed that you would hurt me the way that you hurt me, and that's a big hurdle to overcome. Hurdle to overcome how do I work with couples?
Speaker 3:Part of it is this is Shirley Glass's work.
Speaker 3:She wrote a book called Not Just Friends and she talks about having complete transparency and needing to be overly communicative and being able to flip the script where there's been so much secrecy that now there's just total transparency.
Speaker 3:And for a lot of couples, that can take a long time to go through all of the events of the affair and being able to say this is the person that I was with, these are the days that I was with them, these are the things that we talked about. This is why I felt good being in their presence and allowing the betrayed partner to ask all the questions under the sun that are coming to mind and having the partner, the partner who was involved in the affair, the involved partner, answer those questions with as much truth as they possibly can. And yes, it hurts and there's often a trickle of truth that comes out because they're afraid. They want to give you just enough information to help you feel like you have the truth, but not enough where they think it's going to hurt you. And that's hard because that's like ripping a slow bandaid off. So really trying to be as transparent as possible from the get-go is a big piece of the healing process of getting that truth back.
Speaker 2:Do you ever give your clients the disclaimer of be sure you want to know the answers to the questions that you ask?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really really hard. Yeah, I have. There's certainly questions, especially I mean Shirley Glass talks about. There are some questions that you don't want to ask because you don't. Your brain is automatically going to create images of that and it can be very traumatic and your imagination is often much worse than what the truth is, and so you know much worse than what the truth is, and so you know. I ask that folks don't ask too many really detailed questions that are sex related, because I don't want for you to be traumatizing yourself unknowingly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even hurting yourself for future reconciliation, like when you have sex again with your husband or your wife. That's what you're going to think of.
Speaker 3:You have sex again with your husband or your wife that's what you're going to think of Right and do you want that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a hard one.
Speaker 3:And the other thing that I would mention too is, as you're going through this process, you do want to have someone that you trust that you might be able to bounce ideas off of individually right Like you need your own support system, and I would just be really cautious about the people that you invite into that inner circle to be aware of the affair. Because if you're really close with your mom and you go and you vent to your mom about your betraying spouse and then you've healed you've gone through the process of healing from the affair in this relationship, but your mom hasn't, and now you're asking that your mom re-engage with your spouse and be like we're all good and fine now mom and your mom's stuck there with all these secrets. So I highly recommend that you find somebody that is a friend of the marriage that the two of you have agreed upon and it might be a therapist, it might be a friend outside that you both trust will keep it to themselves. But you need your own support system. Just be cautious of the one that you choose.
Speaker 2:That's good. So, other than affair issues, what are some of the other issues you see people coming in with? Well?
Speaker 3:it's funny. I had a client yesterday say well, it's kind of like the Holy Trinity, and the Holy Trinity, he was saying, is communication, conflict and intimacy, and that totally is. It's the mirepoix of couples therapy. So, boy, I hope I said that correctly. I was just thinking. My husband, who speaks French, would probably correct me just now.
Speaker 2:Girl, I didn't even know the word and I'm like look at her, she sounds super smart. I think it's great.
Speaker 3:If you're a cook, it's carrot celery and onion. That's my report.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see the word in my head now, but I've never known how to pronounce it.
Speaker 3:If you shop at Trader Joe's. You know, you know that word.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's really what couples are coming in with is they will say we love each other to pieces. This is a lasting relationship. But, holy moly, do we get tripped up? Just talking about some of the easiest, most mundane things? We just seem to trigger each other. So that would just be communication issues. Is there a tone? Are you bringing the four horsemen into the communication with the two of you? Are you, are you um, unknowingly triggering one another? Um, so there's, communication is a big deal for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, let's talk about some of those pieces Tone it's interesting you say this yesterday I had a phone call from someone who was apparently apologizing. That's what they said they were doing, but I love this. What was happening? Yeah, they were saying listen, I am sorry that it came across that I was doing this, but here's why I thought that you, this was the tone they were using, and I'm sitting here like getting defensive, getting angry.
Speaker 3:Totally.
Speaker 2:Your words say that you're apologizing right now, but your tone says you're blaming me, Uh-huh yeah, and I took some deep breaths. I did not get defensive back on the phone with them, but I did ask them a very pointed question. I was like, listen, my question is why don't you trust the? Anyway, I can't get into it because of I can't get into all of the things, and you know. But at the end of it I just said, well, I appreciate you making the call Like I didn't even know how to handle the situation, Cause I'm like this was not an apology, Right For sure was not an apology. So how do you handle that? Like so, how tone? That's a huge one, and I think a lot of times people don't. They think, well, if I just say the words, that's, that's what's needed. But what are all of the things that go into great communication that couples need to know?
Speaker 3:Well, it's funny that you're talking about tone. I just I just picked my dog up from the dog trainer and I have my seven-year-old son next to me and we're trying to learn the cues right and I'm getting it all mixed up. I'm like wait, is it down, is it off? Is it like stop? I don't understand. Like what am I supposed to say? And I said the previous dog trainer was teaching us other words and she said look, it doesn't matter what you say, it's a dog, it's the body language that you're using when you're saying it and it's also the tone. She said you could say okay, you could say release, you could say clown, and my son just ate it up. He was like that's great, I'm going to say clown and he's going to hear that and he's going to think it's release.
Speaker 3:The point that she was saying is it's not the words that you're saying to the dog, it's the tone and the body language. We're paying so much more attention to everything else rather than the actual words and I'm like gosh, that's brilliant. I'm going to use that in couples therapy because we get really, really distracted by tone, because it's the big, obvious thing that's triggering us. And if you grew up in a household where your dad raised his voice when he was upset and he could just be saying empty the dishwasher. And your husband comes in and he's saying something super benign. But you register that tone and all of a sudden your body says alert, alert, danger, danger. You're gonna respond to that tone because you've learned what that tone means to you.
Speaker 3:So tone is incredibly important, body language also. You might unknowingly think like I'm totally cool, calm and collected and your partner's like, but you have your arms crossed and like you're kind of scowling. I'm reading other messages. I don't know what the percentage is, but I remember hearing back in you're kind of scowling. I'm reading other messages. I don't know what the percentage is, but I remember hearing back in school that 90% of communication is not the words you say, it's everything else going along with it, the nonverbals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's right. I think, now that you've said that, that sounds like what I learned as well. It's crazy when you think about how communication has changed the past three years, where so much less of it is in person and you and I are able to see each other as we're recording on this Riverside thing. But but even though I see you, I can't. I only see this part of. I only see your face and the hand that you know up on your face, and so I wonder how much that is affecting people. And then and now, like how much when couples text each other and especially, yeah, you get it, you get it. It's like you just tried to have a serious conversation with a text message and they can't read anything behind your intention of that message.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, although I have told couples that get triggered with tone, like they just, you know, maybe they come from different walks of life. I have my New Yorker and everything that they say is like rushed and it's, you know, like a little spicy on the tone. But you know it's not, they're not intending it to come across that way with intent and impact. Uh, and then you have your like Californian. That's like very sensitive and reads into that tone. I'm like why don't you try emailing it, like just see how that goes for you? And I like to experiment with couples, like if you're having a hard time with face-to-face communication because tone is an issue, then maybe try emailing. Or if you're a couple where you get over fights or you get into fights via text message, then put your phones away and have face-to-face communication and just find what works for you. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach, it's just experimenting to see what works for the unique combination of the two of you.
Speaker 2:I heard someone say the other day they were talking about their business being remote and they said what has saved our team is the use of emojis in the written communication, because they said that's the way we're able to see. Are they kidding? Are they not kidding when they say that if you're going to use text and I thought that's an interesting way to view it as well Now, do you think the goal would be for every couple to be able to have any conversation face-to-face?
Speaker 3:No, I don't think there's. I think the goal is to understand one another and if you get off track, to repair. I don't care how couples have conversation, like if you feel close and connected by swapping emojis all day long and having like gifts is it gifts or gifs? Nobody right, who came up with it anyway? Um yeah. So if you're, if that's how you feel close, if you come home and you're like man, I just loved getting all those silly gifts from you all day long, then awesome, that's great. I'm not going to be the therapist that says it doesn't count. That was like cheap text messages that you sent to one another. You should be sitting down and having a 10-minute face-to-face conversation. I think, as long as the two of you feel connected, that's what works for you. I think, as long as the two of you feel connected.
Speaker 2:that's what works for you. Fascinating, I love. Yeah, I can totally see that my my husband got rid of his smartphone several years ago probably like five years ago now. But one of the things I miss is I cannot send until he got his new flip phone. I couldn't even send him an emoji, it wouldn't come through on his screen. Yeah, but I do miss the memes and the GIFs, or GIFs that we would send back and forth, so now he just emails them to me, oh my gosh, you know what.
Speaker 3:Take it a step further. Get rid of email and just start faxing those emojis over.
Speaker 1:Yes, right.
Speaker 3:Send it by carrier, put it in the, put it in the Harry Potter owl and send it your way. Yeah Singing telegrams.
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, I'm all, I'm all for it. A man with a flip phone over here A man with a flip phone. So in in Gottman's train, in the Gottman training I know that you know this whole five to one principle. Would you tell our listeners about what that is and how they can do it in their relationships?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah. So there's two ratios that Dr Gottman is looking at and he says that healthy relationships have a really positive balance. If you imagine an emotional bank account that both of you are constantly contributing to, healthy relationships have a 20 to 1 ratio of positives to negatives. So just in everyday interactions cooking in the morning, loading the kids up for school, whatever it might be you have 20 positive things for every one negative. And I like that because I think it's realistic to recognize that in happy, healthy, wonderful relationships you're still going to have withdrawals. You're still going to have these negative things that occur between the two of you. It might be a snarky tone, it might be that you miss your partner's bid to connect, it might be that they ask you to pick up milk from the grocery store and you forget to swing by the store on the way home, whatever it might be. So that's everyday interactions.
Speaker 3:The five to one ratio is that even in conflict, healthy couples are still over weighted with positivity five positives for every one negative. So that's the five to one ratio. And it's little things like just giving your partner eye contact in the midst of conflict. It's repairing when you recognize that you came out a little hot out of the gates and you repair and you say, oh, you know what, I'm sorry, had a moment there, do you mind if I start over? And then you start over and you're a little more gentle. Positives could be humor, it could be touching your partner gently on the arm, it could be saying I'm sorry, I'm distracted, let me put my phone away. These are all positive things that you can do, and so in healthy relationships, even in the midst of conflict, you're still balancing out those negative withdrawals with five positives. So that would be a healthy ratio to shoot for.
Speaker 2:That's good and you said in the 20 to one is the healthiest. Is that what you said?
Speaker 3:20 to one is everyday interactions. So you know, dr Gottman was famous because he was watching couples. He was spending time with just observing couples in their everyday habitat of the apartment lab and what he was noticing was that couples that were staying together over time for extended periods of time. When he goes back and looks at that videotape he's like you know what these couples? There's an immense amount of positivity between the two of them. They're engaged in good conversation, there's humor, there's affirmations and, yes, there's negatives. But they're really balancing, overbalancing it out with positivity. And those are the couples that were lasting and even when they were getting in these tiffs and these arguments, they were still balancing the five positives with every one negative. Hmm, that's good yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you, how much? How much, would you say? Successful therapy is teaching a person to have great self-awareness of what they are doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean don't 100%. The only thing you have control over in your relationship is you, and so, if you are, I mean I always say that couples therapy is really just individual therapy happening at the same time, and a lot of that is just focusing on what do I have control over? How am I showing up in this relationship? And I think what you're talking about is emotional intelligence, is being able to recognize your own emotions and how they're impacting others, but also being able to read and interpret your partner's emotions, but also being able to read and interpret your partner's emotions, and a lot of that is truly self-awareness.
Speaker 3:So I think a lot of being in a healthy relationship is that self-awareness, that practice that emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2:What is your favorite moment when you're working with people in therapy, whether it's an individual or a couple?
Speaker 3:I had it the other night. Yeah, it's. It's taking the leaning out partner, um, the partner that might seem cold or shut down or disengaged, and then seeing a wall come down, um, or uh, a true, authentic release of emotion and that to me, I mean I had that moment in session where I saw this male partner cry for the first time and I just kept my mouth shut and I did not interrupt, I just listened and watched this unfold and I was like man, they don't know it, but this is going to be a moment that they remember for years to come, of this breakthrough moment in therapy and I never know what's going to cause that to happen. They have to be ready for it, but it was beautiful and I just kind of felt on cloud nine as a therapist. Sometimes it's hard being a therapist right when your couples are struggling, being a therapist right when your couples are struggling, but when there's some breakthrough moments, it really fuels you up, um, recharges you as a therapist and gives you hope that what you're doing is good work.
Speaker 2:How do you, how do you do self-care?
Speaker 3:I take a lot of showers. I'm a very clean human, um, yeah, so that's my most immediate boundary that I establish is immediately after therapy, my last session. I will often either go into my play clothes, which I mentioned to you that I do, man, that just takes me back to being like six years old and coming home from school and my mom being like put on your play clothes, um, so, yeah, I changed into my play clothes, I'll bathe before bed, so I don't take, uh, therapy energy into my bedroom and, um, I work out a lot. I mean, I say a lot, but you know, I I move my body and I think that that is one of the most effective stress releasers of all time.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree with you.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 2:Well, laura, what would you give our listeners for some final parting thoughts, specifically around the area of communication and conflict and how to best handle that when you experience it, because you will experience it in your relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of mentioned this already. I just thought of this, which I might practice now that I think about it is that it's a lot easier to receive feedback if you don't have that self-awareness. We have a lot of blind spots. We might not be aware of habits that we have gotten into or just patterns of communication that we grew up with. And rather than asking your partner, wouldn't it be so fun to just take a poll of your most treasured trusting people that you know are going to be really real with you and say, hey, I'm just trying to get better here at communicating and I know I have some blind spots.
Speaker 3:Can you tell me at least one annoying habit that I have that I might not be aware of? Yeah, and they might tell you yeah, you're kind of a defensive human being, or you talk a lot about yourself, or you know you, you, um, you have this tone when you talk to your kids and it sounds really condescending and it's like gosh, thank you so much. Be ready for the hard truth and say thank you, um, and then you know, quietly think negative thoughts about them. I think it's good to you know, have somebody else that you love. Point out your blind spots and have it be not your partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's wise Really wise. Laura, where can people find you more about you, what you do, all the things?
Speaker 3:Cool yeah. So my website, laurahecktherapycom. I am not a social media girl. If I could flip phone it like your husband, I would, so it's probably not a great spot to find me, but you can also go to marriagetherapyradiocom or listen to Marriage Therapy Radio on whatever podcast streaming thing that you have. Those are the two main spots.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate your time and I'm excited for you to get ready for your weekend and relax.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Thank you or workout whichever one, both they're, both, they do the same thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:They both recharge you. Yeah, here are my key pies takeaways from today's episode with Laura Heck. You probably heard all throughout the episode. She was talking about the pies, talking about being curious. But in order to be curious in your relationship and to encourage your relationship to foster and grow more, it's important to be a person that's worth being curious about. That's not exactly how she said it, but that's the sentiment behind it. Be an interesting person. That's all about the pies physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual attraction. If you want a reminder of what those are and how those can work in your life and in your relationship, then be sure to go back and listen to the first episode of this podcast. It's all about teaching you what the pies are and how to use them, and it's a great refresher as well. So work on those pies.
Speaker 2:My second key pies takeaway is to remember that there is always hope, even in difficult situations. Remember. She even said that the most recent research out there is around 30 to 40% of marriages are affected by infidelity. Some of the research I've looked at has even said up to 50%, but it's hard to know the true number because we can't assume that everyone's going to be honest in answering that question. So the hypothesis is that number could actually be higher than what we even think that it is right now. That's not to lose hope, that's not to make you think everything is terrible. Why even get married or stay in a marriage if it's just gonna be hurt by affairs? But the truth of the matter is just because it's happened to you. If it's happened to you, it actually means that there's a lot of hope on the other side of it, because you're not married to a bad person. More than likely. More than likely, you're married to a very good person who has just done some bad things. But guess what? Your marriage can still be put back together and there's hope for that.
Speaker 2:And then my third key pies takeaway is it is so important to watch your body language when it comes to communication, and not just your body language, but think about that tone that you're using. And even asking your spouse hey, is there anything I can do to have a better tone? Or is there anything in my body language that, when we talk about hard things, can make it difficult? That can really help you to see where your blind spots are. And then even asking your friends what are some things I do. What are some habits I do, as Laura said, that are unbecoming? And then listening to their feedback, thanking them for it. Don't use this as an opportunity to get defensive or justify. You ask them for feedback, so listen and then take what they say and see how you can apply it to becoming someone that is a better listener and a better communicator, because, ultimately, communication is really about does the person feel like you care? Are you leaning in listening? Listening in order to hear, to understand, not listening just to respond? There's another podcast episode I did about that, about how to listen, to respond. We'll link to that in the show notes as well.
Speaker 2:Remember to share this episode with someone who could benefit from it. Share it with a friend, share it with a family member maybe your sister, your brother, maybe your parents, who knows? Share it with someone you think would really benefit and please leave a review. You can leave up to five stars on Apple. And please leave a review. You can leave up to five stars on Apple. That is the best way to help support this podcast and help it to reach even more people. Until next week, stay strong.