Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for being with us today. I have two friends. I have Nadia Taranczewski. She holds a Master's in psychology and is a master-certified coach and executive coach. She's a keynote speaker and the author of the book ‘Conscious You: Become The Hero of Your Own Story.’ She has worked as a coach in Organizational Developer since 2001. Her company, ConsciousU, makes culture change scalable through its blended learning online-based coaching programs. By combining individual conscious development and social learning in groups and teams, they support organizations to reinvent themselves as a conscious tribe, which is a thriving community in which people invest in inner work, understand the big picture, nourishing deep relationships, and cultivate conscious rituals. She is a curious and voracious learner and has studied with some of the best coaches and experts worldwide. Her full bio is in the show notes.
I also have a returning co-host, Valerie Livesay,and she has been thinking about inquiring into the phenomenon of fallback, when despite our optimal development capacities, what we often refer to as our developmental center of gravity, we make meaning, feel, and act from a smaller, less complex, less capable form of mind. As chief illuminator at Ghost Light Leadership, Valerie accompanies individuals through their discovery of self, using the analogy of theatre to set the stage for their historical and unfolding story. Through her writing, speaking, coaching, and workshop offerings, Val invites the many characters that comprise the full ensemble of oneself to dance together to better meet their intentions. She is the author of ‘Leaving the Ghost Light Burning: Illuminating Fallback in Embrace of the Fullness of You,’ in which she reveals both the despair and ecstasy that accompany a knowing of the fullness of one's allowing the reader to find the fullness of themselves in the journey of development and the experience of being human. The experience of being human. Oof, I love that phrasing. I absolutely love that phrasing.
So Nadia and Val, thank you. And, for listeners, we are in this conversation today because Val said, “You know what? You need to know about Nadia's work.” And so I did a little exploration. I said, “Yes, let's have a conversation with Nadia and learn about her good work.” And so, Val, you're driving today, I'm just kind of sitting in the driver's seat. So, I'm going to turn it over to you. But, first of all, thank you so much for introducing the two of us.
Valerie Livesay 2:46
No, it's a delight to be here again in this way and to have Nadia here with us. I met Nadia back about a little over a year ago, actually, when I was a guest for her newsletter and had the pleasure of Nadia interviewing me. And in that process, I was really taken by, I think, the generosity of the invitation to be interviewed, particularly because of Nadia’s own work in a similar space and a similar approach around identifying these parts of ourselves that we tend not to like so much, and that we wish to deny and push away. Nadia has a beautiful approach informed by voice dialogue of inviting those parts to be known, which is very similar to the work I undertake in Fallback. And I just was so moved by, I think, the generosity and expanding the ways that we might understand that through highlighting my own work in that area. And we have studied in different ways under different people, but somehow, we come to kind of a similar understanding of the importance of what I think Nadia would refer to as consciousness development and its connections to leadership development and how that manifests, I think, in individual relationships, but then how might the work we do as individuals manifest through communities and cultures, and really what the world demands. And so, all of that has made me just smitten with Nadia, as well as the fact that she comes to this practice from a really personal space and evolution of her own. Becoming her own consciousness really informs her work, and that's very meaningful to me. So, you see a lot of my own leanings and why I am drawn to Nadia, but I'd love to start out because it has been about a year since we've been in actual conversation. And here, what is most alive for you right now in your life, which I know is connected to your work and that dance between the two.
Nadia Taranczewski 5:03
Hmm. Thank you, Val, and Scott, for this invitation. It's great to be here with you today. We were chatting a bit before we officially started, and I shared with you that I'm on this big adventure right now that took me to Japan for a month. That was the starting point for this journey because my book has been translated into Japanese, and one of our programs that takes money or psychological relationship to money as the entry point into consciousness development has also been translated into Japanese. So we spent a month there, then went to Hawaii, and now I'm in the United States Bay Area. And I'm just really excited about this change of scenery. Because, after COVID, I think many of us felt so stuck. And speaking about different inner parts, I realized that I have this adventure part of me. And when she doesn't get fed with new people, with new scenes, with new cultures, with different foods, she just begins to wither. And it's not good for my overall setup, so I'm in a very happy space right now,
Valerie Livesay 6:07
I can absolutely relate to the fact that I have made this my year of peopling. And by that, I mean really making an effort to be with people in person. And I'm so excited because you too, I will see you in person actually in the next month. And I've been so fulfilled by this so far this year. So, I absolutely relate to the change of scenery, and just the kind of deepening and relationship that you can be in. I'm really curious about how you see that interacting in your practice. And maybe you can talk a little bit about this conscious tribe work that you do, and how the people, in person or remotely, add to, or, in some ways, might take away from, the ability to be consciously together.
Nadia Taranczewski 6:58
Yeah. So from a professional viewpoint, you mentioned it, one of my interest areas of study, I would even call it of research is what I call this whole idea of conscious tribes. So, I think people, human beings, have always had this need to bond in smaller units that give us a sense of belonging, that gives us a sense of identity. So, I think, to be in what we used to call tribes, and now it's become a bit of a fashion again to call it tribes, doesn't really matter, but there are these enclouds of us where we get that, where we have a sense of belonging. However, I also think a lot of the conflicts that we see globally are, of course, caused by these tribes warring with each other. Because one tribe believes in a different religion and a different set of political beliefs, whatever it might be, we begin to push away and disown the rights of this other tribe to exist. So, therefore, I believe we need to figure out how to become more conscious tribes. So, we want to be part of the tribe, but what does it mean to be in a conscious tribe? And thinking about that, coming from my organizational development background, I actually think that a truly conscious tribe and it doesn't matter if it's an organization, or a family, or an NGO, would be a thriving community where people really, everybody invests in their inner work because I think that's the foundation for getting along with self and others, where we also are interested in understanding the bigger picture. So, to realize we don't live on an island, there is not a vacuum, and everything that we do has a ripple effect in the world. And it doesn't matter how small or how big that action is, but it will affect other people in other systems. So, to see the bigger picture, for me, is part of this consciousness. We need to invest and nourish deep relationships because we are social animals, and so much of our day-to-day happiness and wellbeing is connected to our ability to be in relationships with others. And then, finally, to cultivate what I would call conscious rituals because we all know that, from personal experience, it's so darn easy to just be pulled back into old habits of being and doing. And unless we have some rituals that keep us grounded that may be for you personally meditation, in a team it might be a check-in where you sort of have a listen to how's everybody in the team doing before you dive into the context. So that's a conscious ritual, and which of those actually ground us in this conscious way of being with each other? So, that's one of the things I'm up to right now.
Scott Allen 9:33
Well, I really enjoy the intentionality around how you're framing the relationships, how you're framing what it means to be in a tribe. There's thought and there's design there, that, again, it frames the experience. Would you talk about that? Can you provide a picture of what it feels like to be in a conscious tribe? Because it sounds so darn appealing. (Laughs) I have friends, I have good friends, and I have some that come in and out of my life, but again, the intentionality and the design around this, I'm just really curious because it seems like it's a space where, really, a deeper meaning can be explored.
Nadia Taranczewski 10:19
Yeah. And then, actually, Scott, I think you already picked up on probably one of the biggest or most important words there, which is intentionality. So, I think we all are part of different groups: groups of friends, groups of colleagues, networks were part of, etc. But what differentiates, I would say, this sort of random collection of groups that we more or less belong to from a tribe is that we have an intention that we follow together to some degree. In a family, it would be having a family and thriving and connected family life together. In an organization, there's usually an organizational purpose that we somehow group around, and that gives us a direction that gives us a sense of shared meaning. If it's not given to us, I think we are free to invent it. Actually, let me jump right ahead because one of the experiments I'm doing right now with part of my community is I am not necessarily very optimistic when I look at how the world is developing right now. From a political perspective, I think, in many countries, we have the same development towards populism, towards looking for strong leaders who give people answers, administrations, and social structures are eroding. In Germany, I see very clearly that systems that we used to rely on heavily are beginning to break down. And I've been thinking, “Where are we going to be in 10 years from now?” And if everybody just has the stance of ‘I need to fend for myself,’ it will become a very dangerous place to be a human being in this world. So, what I've developed, and that's an ongoing experiment right now, is what I call a conscious money tribe. So I basically said, “What if we get to a place where we can share resources with each other, among them being money, but not only money, in a way where the resource can flow wherever it is needed most at this very moment in time to fulfill a need and uncouple it from performance, uncouple it from any notion of deserving that we traditionally associate with getting money or getting other resources?” So, in this experiment now, we are 22 people in Berlin. I decided, out of all the work I've done with people around money, I noticed this fixation that we have that money needs to be deserved, we need to earn money. And only if we have performed are we privy to receiving money. That's a conditioning that we all have; it's part of capitalism, and it's much stronger in men than it is in women. So, for the sake of this first experiment, I decided to just take people into this tribe who don't identify as male, just to make it a little bit easier because I think it's complex already. And now, what we do is we meet every six months live, and then we have a pot, and everybody puts something into the pot, and that is money and other resources. So, for example, in the last round, we had somebody say, “I will babysit your kids for an evening,” or, “I will cook a dinner for four people, and I can do that at your house.” “I am good with writing copies, so if you need support with your website, I'll be happily providing that.” So those bits obviously aren't anonymous because you need to know who to turn to, but then any financial contribution you make is anonymous. So, I don't know if you put 50 euros into the pot of 500, it doesn't matter because the whole idea is that when you give, you give completely unconditionally. Then, in the next step, we are experimenting with taking something out of the pot. And my conditions or the rules that I set down was to say, “If you take, you take shamelessly and guiltlessly. And the only condition connected to taking anything out of the pot is that you have an advice conversation with one other person from the tribe.” So, let's say I am thinking about taking money out of the pot; I would say, “Scott, could you have this conversation with me? There are guidelines for this conversation, and the only intention is for you to help me create clarity around what I want to take and why.” Valerie connected to our work with different inner parts and selves to also look at what are the different inner voices that come up when they think about taking without first having performed. And, for all of us, that's a huge trigger. By the end of the conversation, I hopefully have clarity about what I want, if I want to just borrow money, or if I want to take money, how much money I want to take, and then I take it. So, there is no other requirement for me. Now I'm clear: I'm the source of my own needs, and I will take the money. And we've done this now for three rounds, and it's working beautifully right now. My hope is that we create a replicable model where we can spread that to anybody who's interested in setting up their own conscious money tribe and thus create structures of solidarity amongst people who have a bit more and people who have a bit less. And, in our tribe, for example, we have people who are on social welfare, and we have people who are millionaires. And really, the idea is to let it flow. In one of the last meetings, somebody took money who didn't necessarily need it from a financial perspective, but she wanted to spend money on something that felt like a luxury, and she wouldn't have permitted herself to do that. So her experiment was, what does it feel like to take? So, it's a social experiment, but that would be a practical application of how to create a conscious tribe.
Valerie Livesay 16:11
I so love your approach to this as an experiment, and it does feel like this huge experiment. And it is so interesting to key into the greater difficulty in taking than in giving. And, as you noted, I just think that this would bring forth all sorts of more compressed parts of us and bring those to the surface, both in the giving and in the taking. And then, this part is about observing who takes what for what purpose as well. And I'm wondering, what are the structures that you put in place to support the exploration of that? And I also want to know, did you say how many people are part of this?
Nadia Taranczewski 16:59
Yeah. We’re 22 right now. Basically, since we meet every six weeks, I put in a bare minimum of sessions you need to attend. So, I think we meet nine times, that was sort of the scope I set for the first experiment. And I said, “You need to be physically present in at least three, hopefully more.” And we combine learning about ourselves and about our relationships with money. So we do the pot thing, but then we also have a conversation about what comes up, and then we practice, in some ways, radical honesty because everybody is triggered for different reasons. I think it's impossible not to have any trigger in this whole process, but then, can we create enough of a social bond between us to make that discussable? Can we talk about this? Can we bring it to the surface? And maybe, and that's my hope, perhaps that's even easier than doing it with our own family, for example, or doing it in a workplace where people are different and have different relationships anyway. The second thing is we have a social gathering, a potluck dinner, and everybody brings food. And, at the end of our meeting, we just sit together and eat. And, other than that, I didn't put a whole lot into place. So, we have basically, I think, five ground rules. And the rest is up for grabs because I said, “I don't want to over structure it,” which is, being German, sort of my natural tendency, and to say, “Let's just see what happens,” because what's the worst that can happen? We all quit and say, “Well, this was stupid.” But the best that can happen is that we may learn to flow with less structure. And it seems to be leaning that way now.
Scott Allen 18:42
Well, can you share some other observations or some other learnings that you've had as you can reflect on this? I find this fascinating.
Nadia Taranczewski 18:51
Yeah. As I said, it's still early days, so ask me in a year from now. But what I'm observing so far is that one of my assumptions was not met because I actually thought the first thing that is gone is all the different services: cooking at dinner, babysitting, all of that stuff, because it's easier to take that. But that didn't happen because, somehow, when the first person stepped up and said, “I actually want to take money out of this pot,” it broke a dam. And I think this intentionality because I do think it's important that when you find anything, to be clear on your vision, and my vision was I want to have money flow in this system. So, nobody is helped if we just pile up more and more money in this pot. One of my friends, because everybody I invited is friends with me and my wife in some way but not necessarily friends with each other yet, and one of my friends said, “Well, how about if after three rounds there's still money in the pot from the first round, we just burn it?” And everybody in the room was like, “Ah.” It was sort of a scary thought, but what it did was to recognize, well, is it easier to burn it, or is it easier to take it? And what about just taking it? So, there's this beauty in dropping into the space of trusting, “I can take something and I will still be loved without having performed anything, maybe even without having given anybody a big explanation about why I took.” And the other thing is the connection set of form because of the advice conversation that is the requirement for taking are incredible. So, people have these mind-blowing, life-altering conversations with each other about something that is never talked about. All the guilt, all the shame about having or not having, about taking, family dynamics that are connected to it. So, if anybody is listening and going, “Well, that would be interesting to do that,” to be curious and to just trust that the human soul is beautiful. And if we create the right environment, something amazing will come out of that. The other thing is that I work a lot online. I'm a big believer, and you can create magic online. However, for this particular experiment, I really think since it's very much for me about creating a social structure that holds when, in the future, maybe, hopefully not other structures fail, the face-to-face is important in this case. So, get people together that are in proximity to each other. So, those are the things that I can say so far.
Scott Allen 21:34
Nadia, you've used the word that I love, which is experiment. And it sounds like you are a curious soul who is interested in seeing how things will play out. Can you talk about some other experiments that you're running or have run that maybe led to some pretty interesting results? Because, again, I think it's just a wonderful way to think about how we exist, whether that's where you are in the world right now and how you're thinking about life from a place and a setting standpoint, but also changing things up, and exploring, and experimenting. Because I think, at the end of life, those are some of the meaningful stories that we're going to hold on to. And, again, there's intentionality behind that experimentation. So, what do you think? Would you talk about some other experiments that you've run that caught your attention recently? Because I love it.
Nadia Taranczewski 22:33
So, let me talk about another thing that I would also like to make accessible to other people because I'm always thinking about what is the low-hanging fruit. What are the levers that are available to all of us that are actually not that difficult to operate but that make a huge difference when we do? So, the conscious money tribe is potentially one of them, even though I can also see why some people might have respects of that experiment. The other one is I formed what I call a Source Dazzle, and I need to explain a little bit where these words came from. So, the first thing I want to say is that I have a dear friend and mentor, Peter Krunic. He is the father of the money work that we teach in our program, ‘Conscious Money.’ And another piece of work that he calls ‘The source principles.’ Very briefly, the observation that he made after working with organizations, particularly in Switzerland, many family-run organizations being sort of the first organizational development consultant, one of them out there because he's now in his mid-70s, so he's been around the block a bit. He noticed that any human endeavor, whether it's an organization, a project, or a podcast, always has one person, and now, that's important: one person only who's the source. Being the source, you are equipped with a specific set of rights and responsibilities if you want. So, in some ways, it's not even personal because source is a role, you can pass it on. But if you are the source, and often, for many people who have sourced something, the origin stories sound very similar. It's often like this moment of clarity where you just kind of know this is the thing that I have to do. And if you push it away, it keeps coming back until you deal with it. So, if you've sourced something, you are the source. So I decided I'm the source of my company, ConsciousU. I have a big plan for it. I have a big vision for it. And I sometimes feel alone. I feel I don't have people I can share the struggles with in a completely open way because the people that work with me, I don't want to burden with my insecurities and my worries, at least not to the full extent. And also, I realize sometimes I'm in need of input, and advice that not everybody can give because you need to have at least similar experiences, to some degree, to relate and help steer somebody as a mentor in a certain direction. So, as the source, I decided I wanted to have my own group, support group. You could call it a mastermind group or whatever term you want to take for it. But I wanted to be self-organized. So, I don't want to be paying money for it; I don't want anybody else to pay me money for it, but I want to be there with a high level of commitment. So, that's what I call a Dazzle. The word dazzle came from learning that a herd of zebra is called a dazzle. Zebra companies, in an alternative view of looking at companies that bring value to unicorn companies. So that's where this whole field came from. And then, of course, to dazzle, to shine, to sparkle, I just really liked that. So now I have formed a thing called a ‘Source Dazzle.’
Scott Allen 25:50
That is awesome. And I'd never heard of that. Are zebras a dazzle? Is it a tuxedo of flamingos? There are so many fun ones, right? So, Source Dazzle. Okay, so keep going. This is great.
Nadia Taranczewski 26:04
So, Source Dazzle. And my Source Dazzle. And, again, since I'm the source of this particular Source Dazzle, I created the rules. So, I knew what I wanted and needed. And I said I want a group of other sources who have sourced something that is akin or similar to mine or that has inspired me in some way. And we get together once a month for three hours, and that's online, by the way. During this time, we follow a particular protocol for the meeting, which is a bit like a sort of fishbowl coaching. So, if you have one person that says, “I have a case, like, I'm feeling really stuck with X, Y, Z issue,” then one of the other people will interview me to clarify what am I struggling with for about 10, 15 minutes. Then, I turned off my camera, and the rest of the group talked about me and my challenge. And then, I turn my camera back on and report back what I've learned and how I’ve made progress. So, that's one of the formats we use. So, there are a couple of different formats that we supply, but I have found it incredibly helpful to know that I'm not alone in the world and that we have rotating hosts because it's self-organizing. So, we basically have the whole year mapped out and know who's hosting which meeting. And it works easily. So, I'm always interested in experiments that can be replicated by other people without having to read 500 pages about it or take a whole course on it because it's not rocket science. And then, the idea is, and maybe just to give it a bit of a frame here, I'm in the process now of creating an online space called ‘The Conscious Tribes Community’ where I want to invite, for one, people that have been part of any of our programs so that they can still access the programs there, but also create a space for anybody to join for free who would like to have a space for experimentation. So, we will share things like the conscious money tribe and how you form your own. We will share things like the Source Dazzle and how you do that for yourself. And we will exchange with other people like yourself who are working in this field, and also have ideas, and experiments, and just see what emerges from that space.
Valerie Livesay 28:19
I love the clarity around your offering here and the concrete experiments. And I agree with you. I've been thinking so much lately about where we go to be, the word I'm using right now is tended to. So, where are those spaces as communities that we can go to be tended to? And it's not just about tending and the caring way, but it's tending in the witnessing, it's tending in the wisdom, it's tending in the having parts of you be pushed up against, and also having parts of you be held, and feeling your way into what that means for you and what that means in relationship with others. And I'm fortunate because I have several of these intentional communities. We talk about it as developmental communities, developmental friendships, or communities of inquiry. And it's interesting, the ones that I've kind of moved more into or out of over the course of my own life and development as well. And one of the things that's alive for me right now is because some of these are so incredibly nourishing. They're all incredibly nourishing in their own way, but one of the things is they can't only be nourishing. They can't only be tending, there needs to be some kind of push and pull, and mirroring, and all of that in order for us to, one, be real, and truth tell, and to be in the process of what it takes to be in development, if that's what we are seeking. And so, when that truth-telling, that realness, the triggers in me push up against the triggers in you, those are the times when it gets crunchy, icky, and spicy. And my friend Shekila Smith has a colleague who talks about the people who they love, who are hard to treasure. So, we are all hard to treasure sometimes; I love that phrasing. And then she also has this idea of fierce love. So, we so often think about how our relationships are supposed to be about tending to, caring for, and feeling good in the midst of and in the company of someone else, and that's not the reality all the time in authentic relationships. So, how do we love each other fiercely in the struggles when we are hard to treasure? And how do we also offer that fierce love to ourselves so that we are in development, in the conversation with ourselves about why this thing is pushing up so hard and tight against us, causing me to constrict to fall? And I am just curious about how you've seen that playing out in your conscious tribes, no matter what they happen to be.
Nadia Taranczewski 31:23
I love what you just said, and the heart to treasure is something I'll take away. It's a good way to describe it. Yeah, I think you're mentioning something really essential. It's easy enough to be in these loving, supportive communities, but are you going to stay when it gets crunchy? When people start disagreeing with you? When you are triggered by somebody, or maybe even worse, so if you triggered somebody, what happens then? I don't have a perfect answer to that yet, but I do think the community, at least the people who followed our work a bit more closely, at least equipped with some useful tools. So, one of the main things that we do, for example, through the money work is we work with the principle of projection and see money. We look at what people project on money. And then we take whatever statement that might be, whether it's money is freedom or money is dirty, or money is corrupt, and we turn it into an ‘I’ statement. So, we teach people how to reclaim that which they have projected onto another surface. But, of course, this process that we learn there is equally, if not more, relevant when it comes to our relationships with people. So, I would say at least a significant number of people in our community have learned that when I'm triggered, that's the first pitstop. To look at what is it about Val in this moment in time that I find annoying or triggering? What upsets me? To put a name to make it very specific. And then to rephrase it as an ‘I’ statement and go, “Okay…” I don't know if I would say, “Oh, she's so self-important.” How does it sit with me to say, “I am self-important.” However, instead of just coming from sort of the self-flagellating viewpoint, then my inner critic gets really activated and goes, “Well, I've been telling you that for years,” to actually find some lightness and joy in it and go, “Okay, so how is being self-important a good thing? When is it amazing to be self-important and maybe even self-promoting?” And to begin to play with that. And then, and I know that Valerie, that's also part of your work; we always look at the polarity of that. So, we go, “What's the other side?” So, if I think, on the one hand, there is self-importance, there might be humility. And then, try on that sentence too and say, “I'm humble.” And to give credit to you as well and to go, “And Valerie's [Inaudible 34:01] too,” And to find union in noticing that we're actually, on some level, we’re just really the same. We might be different expressions at any one moment in time, but we're not that different. So, I find that's the entry point into a different way of being with each other. But the second step, and I'm in the process of figuring out what rituals could be for that, is how then we express fierce love with whatever is still left in the field. Because the reclaiming of the projection might already take out a lot of my charge, and there might yet be something that I need to address with you. And how do I do that in a way that is most honoring of our relationship and the intention of maintaining it? So, of course, something like nonviolent communication can be part of that mix, but also a different degree of honesty because I think most cultures, and the German culture for sure, is really conflict-avoidant. And I know we don't have that reputation, but trust me, it is so. And how do we learn to have healthy conflicts, constructive conflicts with each other? So, that's my next area of inquiry actually.
Valerie Livesay 35:13
Well, I hope you'll keep me updated on that because I think that's so incredibly important. Even when you were talking about the experiment that you're doing around the conscious money tribe and the flow of resources, I always put myself in that position. What if I were part of this? And I felt the grip of that. We're coming to the end of time, and one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is I'm in this space of working with my smaller self so frequently, and I've had a lot of beautiful guides and containers to hold me in that space. And I'm so grateful for that. And it's really important for me to remember what it's like to be in the grip of a trigger that I'm like, “Oh, I don't know that I'd want to go there.” And so, as I think about how we do this work in organizations, I know you've done a lot of work there and that you're expanding outward, but this place where our identity, our security, our financial security, our reputation seems even more on the line. And we're in the places where we interact with folks, where we don't feel completely safe, and sharing the truth, or naming a charge, or just putting ourselves out there in this way. How have you been able to bring this kind of work into those organizations? Even your Source Dazzle, which I also love that naming experiment, you said, “I can't necessarily do this with the people on my team, for many reasons.” So, it's this other group who is invested in me, but in a different way. So, how do we do it with people who may not be invested in us, yet the people that we really need to be doing more truth-telling and pushing up against our edges in the company of others?
Nadia Taranczewski 37:04
So, for me, that is still part of my offering, our offering at ConsciousU. It really boils down to shared learning experiences because most of us have not learned these things at home. And maybe Scott's kids now do, and maybe your kids because you are different parents than the parents we grew up with, but we haven't usually learned it at home, we haven't learned it at school, we haven't learned it at university. So, once we are in a work environment, if there is a source in the organization, it brings us back to the source, who has a vision for a different way of being with each other in the organization, it can be learned. But what I've come to realize is it's not enough to send leaders off to these retreats and then hope that, through their illumination, they will transform the rest of the organization because, frankly, it doesn't happen. Leaders that really, really connect with the content of what was taught, that really have sort of a deep insight into themselves, they are often the ones that end up leaving the system because they look at what they come back to and go, “This is insane. I don't want to work here any more; I'm going to go somewhere else.” So, I think we need to have shared learning journeys across all levels in the organization and really democratize access to these deep conversations and these deep, deep teachings. And that's one potential road. I'm not saying that's the only way to get there, obviously, but I would think about how to create shared learning experiences and how to have these conversations together in a facilitated space where there's enough safety to take the first steps.
Scott Allen 38:45
I love it. I literally, as you were just speaking, I was not a good active listener because I was trying to write down words to capture how I've experienced you in this conversation, and they just kind of flowed out of me. And it's adventurous, curious, intentional, vision, integrative, design, and reflective. You're integrating so many different kinds of sources of knowledge. Your curiosity about the world and curiosity about relationships. Your adventurous nature and willingness to experiment I think it's so wonderful. But there's a structure in it. There are some design elements. And then we're designing it, and we're learning. And there's a vision there, and it's, okay, how do we do this differently? How do we approach things in a new and different way? We know where the current model gets us; here we are. (Laughs) Good, bad, or ugly. And then, are we going to be reflective throughout this process and pay close attention to what's happening to us? What's working in the group? And I have great respect. Great, great respect.
Nadia Taranczewski 39:55
Well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk about this to such attentive and informed listeners who are in this space, really, with me. And I know that your work is part of this bigger experiment that we're all up to. And so, I just really hope that your listeners are inspired to go forth and experiment. And do it with some lightness because the final ingredient, I would say, that is never to be underestimated is humor. Laugh a lot.
Scott Allen 40:24
Yes. That's wonderful.
Nadia Taranczewski 40:27
So important.
Scott Allen 40:30
Yes. Well, Nadia, as we wind down our time together today, we always ask guests something that's maybe caught your attention recently. This could be something you've been listening to or streaming or maybe something you've been watching or reading. It doesn't have to do with anything we've just discussed; it could have something to do with what we've just discussed. But what's caught your attention recently? And we’ll each kind of share something that comes to mind.
Nadia Taranczewski 40:53
All right. As you’re asking me this question, I'm sort of flicking through my Audible because there's a book ‘Venomous Lumpsucker.’ And the Venomous Lumpsucker is a fish that is sort of the main character of this book. It's somewhat of a science fiction, but it takes place maybe ten years into the future, maybe 15 years into the future. And it's a novel, and I find it such a must-read. I was looking for the author’s name, and please excuse me because with Audible, I never really look at the cover, and I don't know who the authors are. He's this British writer who I think just has incredible vision, an amazing capacity to demonstrate where we're heading, and also a lot of humor. And I absolutely love this book; I think it's a fantastic read. So, that's something that I would recommend.
Scott Allen 41:47
It's an intriguing title, ‘Venomous Lumpsucker.’
(Laughter)
Nadia Taranczewski 41:53
Really draws you in.
Scott Allen 41:56
Kind of like a dazzle of zebras. Maybe that's what we'll call the episode; who knows? A dazzle of zebras. That would be… Val, what do you think? What’s caught your attention?
Valerie Livesay 42:05
For the past month, I've been listening to this podcast called ‘The Rest is History.' It’s a British podcast series. Dominic, I don't know his last name, and Tom Holland are the hosts, and they’re academics or historians. And they kind of unpack different historical moments around the globe and explore them with a lot of humor. I just love their banter together. I giggle most of the time, and I learned a lot. The one that I've gotten into so far is the history of the Titanic. And it really goes into the key players related to the Titanic and how they came to be. And a lot around identity, which I always think is fascinating. Like the origin stories, identity, and that kind of thing. And then, also, how we are judged, I guess, the stories that we tell about things that happened and who were the players in those, without really knowing the complexity of the story. So, I love that they highlight those. Truly, I giggle. Even right now, I'm listening to one on the assassination of JFK. It's not a light topic at all, but their banter is really lovely. And they do hold each other, and the conspiracy theories are one of the things that they're exploring lightly. And so, I'm just finding it like one of my favorite things to do when I'm washing dishes is listen to ‘The Rest is History.'
Scott Allen 43:39
Awesome.
Valerie Livesay 43:41
What about you, Scott?
Scott Allen 43:42
So, to stay on this theme of humor, my daughters and I, we were in Denver, probably three weeks ago, to watch a recording of there's a stand-up comedian named Demetri Martin, he was recording a Netflix special. And so, our family loves laughing. And we will wake up on Sunday morning and watch Saturday Night Live because none of us can stay up that late. But we love to laugh. And so, I've been listening to ‘The New Comedy Bible’ by a woman named Judy Carter. I want to add more humor by design to my presentations. And so, this has been a wonderful, wonderful book. I've listened to it probably three times now. It is all about structure, how people think about developing comedy and the structure of different jokes. She'll go to Robin Williams, and she'll go to these very famous comedians and help you as a listener understand what's going on and why it's funny. So, that's been a lot of fun, learning more about why I find things hilarious, the structure beneath them. And then, I have a colleague that we do a presentation, and it's probably once a month that we do this. So, I've been intentionally designing jokes for that presentation, and I'll tell him the joke before, he'll see how it lands, and then he'll give me feedback. But it's just a little experimentation. So, maybe by November, I'll have my five minutes. It might be at a deli in Dallas, Texas, doing an open mic. Who knows?
Nadia Taranczewski 45:22
Fantastic. You have to let us know. That’s great.
Valerie Livesay 45:25
Exactly. And just so you know, when you mentioned bringing in humor, like telling a joke, that's another trigger for me. I'm like, “No, I didn’t do that.” Don't ever invite me to tell a joke okay?!
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 45:41
You just did.
Nadia Taranczewski 45:43
Exactly. I finally found the name of the author, Ned Beauman. And yeah, just to complete that, and I posted something in our chat so you can put it in the show notes.
Scott Allen 45:56
Awesome. I will put it there for sure. Well, Nadia, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. Thank you for the good work that you do in the world. And, for listeners, everything is in the show notes, so you will be able to find all kinds of fun information there to learn more. And Nadia, thank you so much. Enjoy the Bay Area. I wish I was there, I would sit at the grill in the fig and have a glass of red wine, maybe a Pinot Noir with you. And we would let's do that someday.
Nadia Taranczewski 46:23
We shall. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you, Scott, and thank you, Val.
[End Of Recording]