Employing Differences, Episode 171: Is it safe to disagree with me?

"Being safe to disagree is so essential to teamwork, so essential to any relationship. If two humans are involved and you want to have authentic communication and you want to have creativity or you want to throw ideas around – if you can't disagree with each other, you can't do any of that other stuff."

Karen & Paul talk about things you can do to support useful disagreement.

Transcript

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Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:13] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:14] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:16] Each episode we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, Is it safe to disagree with me?

Karen: [00:00:25] So this question came up because I had a disagreement recently with someone. And after an hour of sort of dramatically disagreeing with one another, I will say, she paid me an incredible compliment, which was to say that she felt very safe disagreeing with me. And I have been thinking about that ever since because it strikes me as something that I'm thrilled to get that feedback, as positive feedback. And it's really important.

Karen: [00:00:56] And I got curious, What is it? What did I do with her in that moment or have done with her over time? What is it that I do that makes me safe to disagree with? Because, boy, I want to do more of that! I want to make sure I keep that. 

Karen: [00:01:12] Because being safe to disagree is so essential to teamwork, so essential to any relationship. If two humans are involved and you want to have authentic communication and you want to have creativity or you want to throw ideas around, if you can't disagree with each other, you can't do any of that other stuff. And so we've talked before about how important it is to have that culture and be able to disagree with each other, and to speak up when you disagree and all that kind of stuff.

Karen: [00:01:39] But we wanted to focus today on this question of "Is it safe to disagree with me?", or perhaps another way to say it, What can I do? What are the things that I would do to make it safe for others to disagree with me?

Paul: [00:01:54] It is very powerful when you can actually have a disagreement with somebody, and then actually have the working relationship be stronger at the end of it, than when it started. And I think that's oftentimes when we feel like it's not safe to disagree, it feels like we're going to damage the relationship by having, by having a disagreement. 

Paul: [00:02:13] Which means kind of one of two things like either the relationship isn't in good shape to start with, and so it's very rickety and we expect that this is just going to be the, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back and knocks everything down.

Paul: [00:02:24] Or if you're like me, you're so concerned that any little thing is going to make the relationship less positive that you don't want to do it. And so it's I think a couple of things around, you know, noticing when it's safe enough to disagree, is about sort of attending to that. Paying attention to like, wait a minute, what is it about the current state of the working relationship that what's the sense that we both have of this?

Paul: [00:02:50] There are certainly- and we'll get to this in just a few minutes around like, What are things that, for example, I can do so that it strengthens that sense? But what is it that even gives people the sense that it is safe? And I think that is a feeling that there is a vitality to the relationship, that it's not just going to crumble under this.

Paul: [00:03:05] It's really that it's a feeling that we can disagree about this thing and that the relationship can contain and can hold that. And that it's just part of the natural course of working together. And so what we do kind of want to dig into then is what are the things we can do that can give people that sense? That, "Hey, we can disagree about this thing and we'll, we'll be just as effective working together or maybe even more effective afterwards." That will have an even stronger relationship that a disagreement isn't going to damage it.

Karen: [00:03:36] Yeah. And I think that leads in nicely to one of the first things that I think is important, which is that we escape from the trap that if we disagree, it changes my opinion of you. I can think you're wrong about a thing without thinking that you are stupid or uneducated or ignorant or any number of sort of 'put down' words that often show up in disagreement. Like when we're trying to be right and we use all those other words to discredit someone else's ideas. That's really bad idea. That is not in the 'safe to disagree with' category.

Karen: [00:04:12] So what we want to do is make sure that both in our own thinking and in the language that we use, that we're clear that our respect for the individual, our opinion of that person's intelligence, our opinion of their work ethic or whatever is at stake here, hasn't changed. 

Karen: [00:04:31] That it's just about this concept, this thing I have a different idea about. I have a different belief about it. And when I disagree with you, I'm not putting you down. It's not a reflection on who you are. And of course they can receive it, however they receive it. But it helps if I am clear in my own mind that this isn't about whether they're smart or good or whatever else.

Karen: [00:04:53] It's about the thing. They came from a different place. They believe something about it. I come from a different place. I believe what I believe about it, and we can say that to each other without it having that personal put down kind of element. So that's number one, is don't lace your disagreement with put downs.

Paul: [00:05:13] And in fact, it can be really useful to do the alternative, which is to lace your disagreement with appreciation. And this is the advanced move, right? But it's the thing that really makes it feel safe to disagree. If even in the middle of the disagreement, you're saying things like, "I know we don't see eye to eye on this, and I really appreciate you sharing your perspective. Because it's helping me think through some things that I hadn't considered before."

Paul: [00:05:35] You don't have to get to the end of the disagreement before you say that. You can do it in the middle. It can be really useful for helping you work through it. And you do have to really mean it! This is one of those you can't just say it. You have to stand in that place of actually meaning it. Because if your words say one thing and the rest of you says the rest, we all know what part of that other people pick up on.

Paul: [00:05:55] For me, it really strong way you make it safe for people to disagree is by actually welcoming their disagreement. When they do that thing, thanking them for it and encouraging it. And you know, obviously you can also do other things to draw it out. But certainly when you're in the middle of it, actually building on that and saying, "This is great, you know, I know this is tough for both of us because we're maybe taking a little bit longer. Or we're both having to struggle to integrate these ideas that we're seeing here." But this is actually what the essence of collaboration and teamwork and working together is. Which is why the two of us think it's so important to be able to do well.

Karen: [00:06:30] Yeah. And then I would say "Now we're clear that I think this is an intelligent, wise, hardworking person, whatever, in front of me." So how do they not see it the way I see it? And this is where curiosity comes in, okay? Somebody who is smart and capable and cares about this thing thinks about it differently than I do. What are they seeing that I'm not? What is their experience that I didn't have? What is the thing that's causing this person, right? If it's not because they're an idiot, it must be because they know something I don't and get curious about that.

Karen: [00:07:05] And again, it's the genuine curiosity. It's not the I close my mouth and let you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah on. It's that 'I am interested.' 'I am curious.' 'I'm asking questions.' I may be feeding back. Like, 'Let me check. I think I just heard you say this thing. Is that what you said?' All of that kind of curiosity-driven conversation that says, 'I want to understand your perspective because it's valuable and it matters to me.'

Paul: [00:07:33] One of the things that's on my wall in my office is a bit from the Human Systems Dynamics folks about 'in inquiry'. And one of the rules for that is "Transform disagreement into shared exploration."

Paul: [00:07:46] So it's really how can we make it feel like the two of us are sitting down next to each other exploring our different perspectives, what's behind those things? And I think about this oftentimes in a sort of a physical geography. It's not 'head to head', it's 'shoulder to shoulder'. It's us looking out at the world together, pointing out to each other the things that each of us notices. And taking each of those things in and saying, "Oh, hadn't noticed that before. Tell me more about that" or "I'm surprised you have that reaction to it. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?" Right.

Paul: [00:08:18] Really getting curious and wanting to, wanting to help yourself understand how the other person makes sense of either the same things that you do in different ways, or what are the other things that they're seeing that you're not that are making sense to them, in these particular ways?

Paul: [00:08:32] And so sharing and exploring that together, I think that togetherness is also an important part of it. Because as we've talked about before, one of the things that can happen in disagreement and in conflict, right, is that we can feel cut off from the other person. Is that wedge that comes into the space between, where we can feel very disconnected.

Paul: [00:08:51] And one of the things that we can really do in exploring this space together is reinforce the feeling of connection. That it's not you versus me, that it's us together doing this thing. So if we reinforce that mutual purpose there in the shared exploration, that can also make it feel safer. And so people kind of relax and open up a little bit.

Karen: [00:09:15] One of the wedges that can get in the way is, frankly, I think my third grade teacher taught me to speak in a particular way, which is to assert that the thing that I want to convince you of is already true. You know, don't say 'I think this or that'. Like, I don't know if you remember that, but certainly somewhere in my elementary school writing, they said, you know, don't say 'I think it should be this way. Just say it is this way.'. 

Karen: [00:09:38] And I'm going to try to unteach us that, because what that does is it dismisses any possibility of a different perspective. And that might be an excellent debate strategy, but it's a lousy togetherness strategy.

Karen: [00:09:51] And what we want to get that sense of togetherness and we're working on this and exploring this together, that Paul talked about, is to make sure we're using language that invites other perspectives. Or at least leaves room for them.

Karen: [00:10:04] So you want to avoid things like 'everybody knows that', or 'it's a fact that', or 'obviously you already would know that', or anything like that. That's that sort of universal truth kind of language. We want to stay away from that and instead say, "It seems to me", or "What makes sense to me" or "What I'm seeing about this". Like, really owning "This is what I got."

Karen: [00:10:27] And that what that means is that 'I'm aware that this is what I have, this is where I am. And it leaves room for you to be different than that. For you to have a different thought or a different approach.'. 

Karen: [00:10:39] And it's very much in the language that either sort of closes off those other possibilities or opens space where they can show up. And so just being thoughtful of the language that we're using. And where our debate coaches are wowed in our brains versus where our, you know, togetherness, collaboration, coaches are allowed in our brains and just pay attention.

Paul: [00:11:01] As a recovering national level high school debater, I feel that very deeply. And it is very true. And oftentimes we're taught this is actually the thing where it's important to distinguish between debate and dialogue.

Paul: [00:11:14] Are we trying to convince the other person that we are right? Or are we actually trying to engage in a dialogue of mutual learning with them? And that those are two very, very different things.

Paul: [00:11:25] In general, I feel there are very few places in life where debate is actually useful. There are some. But in general, I find most of the time, when I'm going to need to continue to work with somebody over a period of time, or live with them or continue to see them on a regular basis, that engaging in dialogue is far more useful.

Paul: [00:11:42] And in that case, in embracing the sort of inherent subjectivity of things, as you said, sort of making it very personal, saying things like, 'In my experience, this is what's going on'. Not 'This is how it is.' Because that really acknowledges that we know that our own view is just that. It's our own view. It's limited, it's partial. It leaves room for someone else to have their own perspective on it. And to the degree that we can then invite them to share their perspective, we can.

Paul: [00:12:14] As we've talked about before on the show, we can share our conclusion. But also show our work of how we got there. This is the experience that I had. These are the things that I've noticed and then also be curious about, and invite the other person. Even if we disagree with their conclusion to ask, "How did you get it? Walk me through this. I really do want to know." 

Paul: [00:12:34] And, you know, often come to the conclusion that neither of us is 100% right, because we almost never are right. There are very rarely in these sorts of things actually right and wrong. And it's exploring that space together that actually helps us to find an answer, a solution, a path forward that's actually going to work for both of us. For all of us.

Karen: [00:12:56] So we started with the question, "Is it safe to disagree with me", which is another one of those will encourage us all to ask ourselves. And we're asserting that this is a huge piece of living in the relationship, living in the space between making that togetherness, the collaboration, the teamwork, being able to work.

Karen: [00:13:14] And so if I aspire, as I do, to being a person with whom it is safe to disagree, what are some things we can do? What are some ways to think about that, to build that skill, that way of being? And we talked about four primarily, I think. 

Karen: [00:13:31] One is to avoid putdowns. Avoid attaching any value about the person to the content that's being disagreed about. So you don't want to either think or imply in your language that if they disagree with you, they must be an idiot. We want to make sure we stay well clear of that! 

Karen: [00:13:48] Which leads us to part two, which is be appreciative within the disagreement. Be acknowledging of all the wonderful strengths that are the reason you want to be in a collaborative space with that person. And what they bring, and how valuable that is and how much you respect and honour and appreciate what they're bringing and throw that in just any old time it fits. You don't have to wait till the end.

Karen: [00:14:11] The third piece that we talked about was curiosity. And this is huge, which is why it comes up in almost every episode somewhere along the way. But get interested in how someone who is smart and reasonable and hardworking could have a different perspective. What are you seeing? How are you seeing it? What are you aware of that I'm not aware of?

Karen: [00:14:30] And ask those questions, have that conversation and genuinely be curious so that as you're looking for that. You are opening this possibility that you'll shift what you're thinking, and hopefully it invites them to do the same. 

Karen: [00:14:45] And the last thing that we wanted to point to was leave room use language that leaves space for someone to have a different opinion, or a different viewpoint, for someone to disagree with you. So avoid language like 'Everyone knows that' and adopt language like 'It is my experience that'. So that we, in just the language that we use to present it, leave space for a different opinion to be present and respected and shared within the space where we are.

Paul: [00:15:15] Well, that's going to do it for us today. Till next time! I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:15:19] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.