NKATA: Dots of Thoughts
NKATA: Dots of Thoughts
EP21: Dilemma of a New Age: Black Fathers, Resilence, Raising a Child in Berlin - with Alain Missala
Can the simple act of daily gratitude empower and transform your life? In this episode of Dots of Thoughts Podcast, recorded on-site at the Neue Berliner Kunstverein, host Emeka Okereke and guest, Alain Missala, explore the vibrant multicultural landscape of contemporary Berlin.
Alain delves into his pivotal work with Black Dads Germany and Zula, shedding light on how these initiatives are reimagining narratives and empowering children from multicultural backgrounds. Through personal anecdotes, Alain highlights the profound impact of role models and the daily practice of gratitude in enriching our lives and fostering resilience.
Breaking Stereotypes:
We take a hard look at the stereotypes surrounding Black fathers in Germany, challenging these misconceptions through the lens of community and solidarity. Alain shares the inspiring story of a proactive WhatsApp group consisting of over 200 Black fathers who support one another in their parenting journeys. This group aims to create a network that serves as a support system, emphasizing the mission to build safer, more inclusive spaces for Black families, where vulnerability is embraced and healing is possible through shared experiences.
Broader Themes:
Finally, we explore broader themes of activism, interconnectedness, and cultural identity in Berlin. What does it take to teach love and unity to our children amid societal challenges? Emeka poses the question: How do we raise our children to embody the beauty and wealth of differences in times of ideological divides and heightened racial tensions?
Reflections and Insights:
We reflect on creating meaningful dialogues, drawing inspiration from the African philosophy of Ubuntu, which emphasizes the importance of empathy and togetherness. Through stories of organic community-building, informal gatherings, and the proactive retention of cultural heritage, we showcase how everyday interactions can nurture a robust, empowered community.
Hi, amazing listeners! Emeka Okereke here. I am the founder and host of this show. If you’ve enjoyed the stories, insights, and creativity we bring to this podcast series, I invite you to join my Patreon community at patreon.com/EmekaOkereke. 🎉
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So hello and welcome at Neue Berliner Kunstverein. We are glad that at least a few people found their way to us tonight, despite the rescheduling of the event. My name is Leila Boger-Lichtenstein and this is Susanne Mierzwerk. We are both the curators of the current show Downstairs, and the event tonight is also part, as a discourse program, of the exhibition Home for Something Unknown presents works by 27 international artists living in Berlin who were awarded the Berlin Senate Visual Arts Working Stipend, and one of the recipients of the stipend is Emeka Okereke, and he is not only presenting an amazing installation downstairs at the moment, but he is also the host of tonight's talk, which is called Dilemma of a New Age, and this conversation is conceived as a continuation of Emeka's podcast series Nkata, which she founded in 2020. And it's a series that features conversations with selected individuals like artists, cultural workers and thinkers, and they talk about their life journeys and how this translates into their vocation as creative people, and Emeka's guest tonight is Alain Missala. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:And some words about Alain. He's the founder of Black Dads Germany, an organization with the focus on reshaping the narrative on black fatherhood in Germany. As the founder and CEO of Sula, he empowers young minds and promotes diversity through various formats, inspiring a new generation of creators and entrepreneurs, particularly from a black, Asian and minority ethnic background. The conversation tonight will focus on what it means to live in Berlin, as Emeka himself describes. Berlin is known for its history as a city of intersections and multifarious identities, which embodies many contradictions. Its residents navigate paradoxes engendered by ideological differences. Yet it is a city where children from various nationalities and races across the globe are raised and educated with a strong emphasis on multiculturalism. What kind of world will they inherit or create as they grow up will be a central question of the talk. Thank you, Emeka and Ellen. We're looking forward to your conversation and give the floor to you now.
Speaker 4:Thanks thanks, um. Thank you, susan and layla, for the elaborate introduction. So everything has been said. Good evening, welcome everyone. People are still trickling in. It's great. I have a feeling that this might be the case where you know, people are still coming in berlin style, exactly. So, my brother this is this is a new setting, but we've been doing this forever. Yes, that's true. That's true. How are you?
Speaker 2:feeling. Oh, I'm feeling good, feeling good. The sun is shining. Hi everyone, I'm very happy to be here and I I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good? I mean, I wake up in the morning and I have to be thankful, first of all, because you never know how many days we have on this earth. So it's very important to me to always be thankful when I wake up in the morning and to self-reflect on not only what I'm going to do, but also on what I've done before.
Speaker 2:And I cannot remember every time when I wake up in the morning. I always remember what my grandfather told me, because my grandfather was really that role model in my life and he always said you know, when the day is gone and it's done, you really have to ask yourself what you've done for yourself but also what you've done for yourself but also what you've done for others.
Speaker 4:Hi, amazing listeners. It's Emeko Kereke here and I've got something special to share with you. If you've been enjoying the rich tapestry of stories, insights and creativity that we bring to you on this podcast series, I invite you to take your support to the next level by joining my Patreon community at patreoncom slash emekokereke. By becoming a patron, you're not just supporting the podcast, you're becoming a part of a vibrant community of supporters and collaborators that gets exclusive access to my artistic creations, whether it's behind the scenes content from my photography project, sneak peeks into upcoming films, early access to new vlogs and video podcasts or exclusive access to my DJ playlist.
Speaker 4:There is something for everyone. Plus, you get special bonus episodes of the podcast and have a chance to contribute to the topics and projects we will explore next. Whether you're a fan of the podcast, my visual storytelling, or just someone who loves art and creativity and would like to be part of my creative journey, there is a tier that suits you. Your support allows me to continue creating and sharing high quality content across these mediums, and it truly means the world to me. So, if you are ready to embark on this creative journey with us, head over to patreoncom, slash emekaokereke and become part of our amazing community today. Thank you for being such an integral part of this adventure.
Speaker 4:Let's keep exploring, let's keep creating together and happy listening, speaking of which, you know I was also thinking about this idea of waking up in the morning. First of all, you are someone who does a lot of things, and that is indicative of how one moves in the world, right? So can you give a sense of how you start your day? I know we spoke this morning you know it almost became a podcast conversation.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:But you know, and you are grabbing coffee at Starbucks.
Speaker 2:It was in Starbucks. I don't go there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so how do you usually start your day?
Speaker 2:Well, as I said, right, the first thing I would do is to acknowledge the fact that in this cosmos, this earth, there is an entity that is so important, that gives us the life that we have, and to make sure that we can basically breathe. And that's so much important and breathing is really like an exercise that you don't just do because you feel like you need to do it, because it's natural. It's natural to breathe. You don't need to do it, but you kind of have to look at what does it mean?
Speaker 2:exactly because we're talking about energy, right so where do you want to have your energy going for a specific day? So if you look at a day and we always thinking of a day as it's 24 hours, right, we have those 24 hours and what do we do in those 24 hours? So what I like to think and what I like to do is I'm breaking my 24 hours into two or three different days, and that's always very interesting because you are basically saying that if I take in 4-4-4, when it means like 16 hours, in a day to do different, different things.
Speaker 2:Right, when is my energy going? So you want to make sure that that energy is really going in anything that has to do with yourself as a person, but also with things that you want to achieve during that day. So I would really just take my time and then think about how I want to go about that.
Speaker 4:It's interesting. You are the founder of Black dash, germany, and this is, this is a. This is a platform and a community that is burgeoning, that is forming every single day and also asking you know for your time. You started it during, during covid, yeah, 2020, and we're going to speak about that a bit, but, on the other hand as well, you have your platform, zula.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:That is more or less like your new baby. Yes, and also taking your time. So all of this partitioning your time and coordinating it is going into this project. Can you talk about first of all Zula and then maybe Black Death as well?
Speaker 2:Zula is the extension of Black Death Germany. So, to put it into the context, black Death Germany is a community of black fathers. So I became a father and in Germany being a father, I really felt isolated as a father. So that means, even in the black community, if you don't, if you are not a father and or if you're in a black community and meeting some other black male or black people and they don't have the experience that you have as a black father, it becomes very difficult to have some kind of conversation. So there are different, different layers when you're a father and, as I was doing, the Black Deaths Germany, we had one of these projects that became very successful. I've called it the Black Deaths Readers that became very successful.
Speaker 2:I've called it the Black Deaths Readers. So the idea was basically to make sure that through shaping or reshaping, I would say the narratives around Black fathers is by giving them another position. And I don't like to talk about positionality too much, but making sure that they've seen as role models. So why, if someone may ask me, why do we need to do that right?
Speaker 2:So but, when we look at the context, we understand why we have to do that. So the Black Deaths Readers became so successful? Because it was about making sure that my daughter when I started Black Deaths Germany, she was two years old and I wanted to make sure that she was always going to see herself being represented anywhere she can be. So what it means is the way we will move. We move as a tribe. So if you move as a tribe, you want to make sure that that little child, a little black child, black German child in Germany, is really making the experience of seeing yourself everywhere she's going. So I kind of have to think of it like okay, not only she has two brothers. So now someone might say, okay, do you raise them differently? No, but I kind of understand that there are different, different layers, one of the layer being that she's not just going to face racism, she's going to face sexism. So what do we do about that? And it's about really creating some of these spaces. But how?
Speaker 2:She was two years old when she was two years old, she really loves books, so spaces.
Speaker 2:But as she was two years old when she was two years old, she really loves books, so we went to a library, I didn't find books for her, and that's how I really decided that I would have a space where she can really have those books. But now, on that space to have books, we'd really see the books and read the into, or we could read the book for the books. For her, it was also about the experience, because then she would see there are the black kids that have the same shapes, you know, color and the skin and the hairs and all of these things, and she would realize that, oh, wow, I am normal. So and zula zula just became that extension of what the Black Death readers was, because, as I was talking to a lot of self-publishers BIPOC self-publishers and talking to creative people about why is it that we in Germany, 2023, 2024, we still don't have a lot of books out there, and so I just created a tribe I created a tribe of creative people.
Speaker 2:I brought them together and organized and brought a structure just to make sure that actually the black debts readers is always going to have books to read so that book club is always going to be having books.
Speaker 2:Why? Why? Because Zula, which is a tribe of creative people, is now creating those books and I don't have to ask for the rights. So there's no copyright or something like that. I don't have to call anyone. I would just take those books that we're creating ourselves. But now what is very, very important is that you know the context itself right. So we're talking about diverse and inclusive content, so the context is very important is that you know the context itself, right? So we're talking about diverse and inclusive content, so the context is very important. What do you want to read? What do you want your children to have? What kind of knowledge do you want to pass on to your children it's very important.
Speaker 4:So it really it really just became a very intersectional project and group and then behind it I've built a company so um that's what the company is taking off now exactly so like um, connecting with you, know your intentions behind black dads exactly, and black dads first, on one hand is about you, know the children, but it's also specifically about black dads. Is it black dads in Germany or black dads of Germany?
Speaker 2:that's the big question everyone's been asking which one is it is. Is black dads in Germany or black dads off in Germany? You decide.
Speaker 4:I think well, of course. And what is why the emphasis on dads specifically?
Speaker 2:Because of the experience, right, as I said, I was a dad and I felt really isolated. But now what is very interesting is that if you're in London, for example, you can have a community of black dads or black people that is a tribe coming from you know, igbo, for example, you know, and then it's a huge community, right. So in Germany, what is very, very interesting about that kind of community is because it's really at the intersection of the diversity of it is just crazy. Crazy because we have Black dads born here, right, black Germans, we have Black Africans, we have Black Caribbean, we have Black American, we have Black Indian.
Speaker 2:So it's so interesting not only because Black dads generally started here or was born here in Berlin. Fundamentally, blackness has so many different layers, right. So if I'm a white father what I'm not? But if I'm a white father and I always like to take this example which is okay, we go down the street, you know, and the traffic light is red, and I would tell my child, like, okay, when it's red for you, which is the ample man just staying there, not walking, you don't walk, you wait when it's also working, which means greens, and then you go on the other side.
Speaker 2:That's very simple to understand. But if I'm a black father I have those different, different stuff I have to talk about, because when my child first asked me, for example oh, just for, said she believes she's white because she's light-skinned and she's so light it looks like very, very light. And she kind of just told me one day that she was white. And that was really at the beginning of Black Death Germany. I understood at that moment why I even started doing what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:And we don't live in a society where it's pretty much normal to teach some of these concepts and ideas of what this skin color means, or whiteness, or blackness and so on, privileges, all of the things that we hear about and talk about, but when it becomes something that you're really experiencing, then it's pretty much different. So Black Death is not just for Black dads. It's really about families, and then it's really about families with Black children.
Speaker 4:But again, recently, there's all of these conversations happening in the WhatsApp group about how there is often this image projected towards Black men and dads they are not responsible, that they are not, and the key word actually is not reliable. Unreliable is the word that is being used strongly in Germany unreliable Some of them have been talking about that and that part of also what they want to emphasize, because very much many of them who come, come, who talk in the group are always referring to their children. Um, they're asking different kinds of questions like what can we do for their hair? Or you know, where can we take them to to play dates? You know, it's quite, very centered around how to learn to transmit to their children.
Speaker 4:But once in a while, the conversation flips to. We want to also emphasize that there are fathers who really are responsible for really responsible and looking to take care of their children. That it's not the stereotype. So, basically, to move away from the stereotype of the irresponsible black father. So how do you think of that in relation to Germany and also raising black children in Germany?
Speaker 2:I think we can really talk a lot about that.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that I like to say is that we, as black dads, if we look at ourselves as a community, that's fine, because it's about labeling stuff, because people need to understand the concept behind it.
Speaker 2:But now, if you look at things like social media, for example, it becomes very interesting seeing how positive, and because we can use media outlets to just change or reshape the narratives and so on and so forth. But I like to say that it's about celebrating the fact that when you decide as a person not as a black person, but as a person to have a child and you get so lucky and you have children, you kind of have to go back to I think we were talking about that a couple of hours ago how you understand the meaning of life itself. Right, and the meaning of life has nothing to do with some of these concepts that are out. So, even though we do have that community and we're doing that kind of political work without trying to be too political, but I believe that a private, as someone says, the private is also political, but we still want to make sure that we're just celebrating being fathers.
Speaker 5:And that's the whole point.
Speaker 2:So, of course, what we have in that WhatsApp group, where we have more than 200 people 200 black people and black dads from different shapes and diverse, and so on and so forth it's pretty much interesting that there's a lot of healing happening in that group. There's a lot of vulnerability happening in that room. So what does it mean? It means, for example, preconceptions and different perspectives that people do have outside. What is lacking is conversations, right, so it's really about conversations. It's really about where do you meet people and how do you meet people. Conversations, it's really about where do you meet people and how do you meet people. And someone just said and I remember I was listening to one of these, um, interesting podcasts I found jay shetty.
Speaker 2:He was talking about love and he said the highest form of love is really when you meet people where they are so meeting people where they are doesn't mean that you, you basically have to I don't know try to to do things that you don't do normally, right, you don't. You don't know, try to do things that you don't do normally, right? You don't have to try to be kind if you're not kind, right, you cannot give what you don't have. So, but meeting people where they are is really about meeting people without having preconceptions about who are they exactly. Why do they move the way they move? Why do they talk the way they talk? Who are they exactly? Why do they move the way they move? Why do they talk the way they talk? Now, in the place where I was born. I was born in Cameroon and now I speak in English, but I'm coming from the French side and I live in Germany.
Speaker 2:I speak German and I go to Italy. I speak a little bit of.
Speaker 4:Italian. I was going to ask you to tell us how you ended up in Germany.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:What was the trajectory?
Speaker 2:Pretty much simple. My family, when my family did ask me, why Germany? Because part of my family is in France why Germany? And then I said because there's something there for me. And today I know why I'm in Germany, having Black Death Germany doing Black Death Germany.
Speaker 4:So you came to Germany around what I came to Germany in, no, don't, don't, let's the calculator no, no yeah, yeah, something like that so you do your calculation and then you have it yeah, so maybe like 20.
Speaker 2:so yeah, but that was my answer right, you speak german now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I do, I do, so you have a german passport.
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, I do. I want to be like you when I grow up, so, but yeah, but what is very, very interesting is really like I feel like and that's what even in the community, in the Black Dead Germany community, I'm trying to make sure that people understand that it's so important we can create different, different spaces and rooms so that we feel safe, or safer, because it's pretty much obvious, every time I go out I have to do some kind of mental training, so because you have the looks and then you have some of these things. And I went to a museum with my boys and then that young woman just came and then she started speaking in English, in a very broken English, and then I look at my boy and then I'm speaking French to them. So I just turned to them and I was, you know. I said in french why is he talking? Why is he talking? Is she talking in in english and this kind of broken english. And then they answer in german, just so that she understood and then because you train them right.
Speaker 2:so and then they just say to her why. And then she said something that is very much of course you understand. And then she said because I couldn't tell. I said, yeah, of course. So what am I trying to say? What I'm saying is we need to create rooms where not only it's not really just about talking about educating people, talking about awareness and so on and so forth, it's really about creating spaces to have conversations, because the lack of knowledge is really just that. That lack of knowledge comes, happens because of conversation missing.
Speaker 4:At the heart of all of this is also something that I wanted to bring to the forefront in this conversation is this, or, looking elsewhere, in our own case, the African cosmology philosophy, for instance, ubuntu, the idea of Ubuntu. It speaks to the interconnectedness of human beings humanity I am because you are, are or because we are, and but as a way. First of all, it started as a, as a quality of, a way of being as a human being, but then, during the 1950s, it was extended into a philosophy, of course, connected to, connected to the Africanists and the whole push for independence.
Speaker 4:So it became much more than that. But this idea of interconnectedness of human beings is something that is a constant reiteration in platforms like Black Dash Germany, but also in Berlin in general Germany, but also in Berlin in general, where it's always been about people coming from different places, and underneath all of that is also children coming from different places and being raised here. So in the way you've been moving in Berlin, because you're a Berliner, you know much more than myself. How have you seen that? Experience the city in a very tangible way, beyond what I call cosmetic activism that we all have in Neukölln and Kreuzberg and the rest of them, where if you just put up posters then it's done. You know Racist moves become something like that. You know, beyond cosmetic activism, beyond gestural activism, in the way you move in the everyday space here, especially because you speak German, and so you go even much deeper. That idea of interconnectedness, how do you practice it? Is there a space for that? Have you experienced it?
Speaker 2:so far, there is a space for that, right. I mean, if you want to create a space for it, you will. If you don't want, you wouldn't. So, and again, going back to what you said, activism. Like some people tagged me sometimes as an activist, I don't. I don't really. I don't, like some people talked to me sometime, as an activist. I don't really. I don't think that I have to see myself as one. There's an action that you're doing, right.
Speaker 2:There are different things that you're doing. You're actively doing something, definitely. But now I think today you know modern world, unfortunately we love labels. We love labels and we need to have those kind of labels to do whatever we think that we do. So when people invite me as an activist, I'm always ask myself what does it even mean right to be, to be an activist? And in berlin, especially in berlin, where we talked a lot about, you know, diversity. We talked a lot about um intersectionality, we talked about inclusion, because we have those label right and we need to have those labels. I'm not saying that's not fine, but what I'm trying to say is you know there is um. Remind me, we said that the revolution will never going to be televised right so it's.
Speaker 2:It's really not about poster, it's really not about whatever we claim to do.
Speaker 4:It's really about doing it and what form has has all of that taken in terms of how people are?
Speaker 2:you see, if we, if we ask ourselves is we really going forward or backward?
Speaker 3:what would be the answer?
Speaker 2:what would be your answer? For example, are we going forward in terms of is that something that is really tangibly changing? And when it comes to some other topics that we're talking about, um, are we going forward or are we going backward, or are we just, or there is some kind of status quo? What is that?
Speaker 4:I'm naturally optimistic sometimes too much, I would say. There's a sense of people struggling and fighting for their own, or fighting against a kind of powerlessness from a very individual place, but also within certain communities, and so, in that sense, there is there. Even though there's a lot of heaviness around it, people are coming up with ways. For example, recently in Berlin, with everything that is going on right now Middle East and all that, there's been a lot of projects and actions that's been leading to. You can disagree with me oh, definitely no, I don't want to disagree absolutely and actions that's been leading to you can disagree with me?
Speaker 2:oh, definitely. I don't want to disagree, absolutely I don't even think you can disagree with me, you can say also why you don't agree.
Speaker 4:You know, is it that you don't see? I'm?
Speaker 2:not taking any position right now. I'm not taking no position right now, but yeah, I mean I understand what you mean. Like, of course, that's the topic right now when we talk about the Middle East and what's going on there, and obviously it's sad and very, very heartbreaking.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for the most part of it, it feels like an uphill battle that you are fighting against.
Speaker 2:But that's not new right, so that's not new right, so that's that's not new. Let's look around us, let's look at different countries um, let's look at. You know what's happened in mali. Let's look at what's happening in congo and what is still happening in congo.
Speaker 2:Let's look at different, different places in the world. So that's what I'm saying, like the discourse can can going into a single, single narrative. That's all right for some people and that's the problem. And that's the problem because the politics take in the context of Germany and it's unfortunate. Of course, we don't even sometimes allow ourselves to come to the point where we want to have uncomfortable discussions or conversations and when we don't allow ourselves to have uncomfortable conversations because that is not really about doing politics right.
Speaker 2:So if you're in a marriage or if you're in a relationship, and whatever you do anyway is always a transaction. That's what I strongly believe is a transaction with yourself. When you wake up in the morning and decide to do things that you want to do, that's a transaction and that transaction costs you something. So the only difference is that you know there is a bank account where you're going to put your energy and then go back there and say I'm going to have that kind of energy back. So you get to know exactly in that transaction how much you're giving and how much you're losing. But again, if we understand every relationship as a transaction, there is always someone that is going to either lose or win. But now, does that have to be the norm? No, that's the whole point, right? So, going back to the Ubuntu, that's what it means. If I am existing, it's because you're existing. So if I take your energy out of your body, I'm taking my energy out of my body. If I'm taking the food out of your mouth, I'm taking that food out of my mouth. If I'm making sure that you're not sleeping, then I am not sleeping.
Speaker 2:So when we start understanding, when we have that kind of understanding of how the world around us has to move and has to be, and understand that giving doesn't mean that I'm losing something, then we have a different kind of power dynamic, right? So? Because when we talk about power dynamic, we always think about it like something that has to be between you know, one that has to be strong or one that has to be weak. So that's not what it means In the dynamic. There might be some kind of way to have balance. So if you find that kind of balance in any transaction that you have with anyone, in any relationship you're having with people, then it's pretty much obvious that there's a possibility.
Speaker 2:I am very optimistic. I'm very optimistic. I can see that there's a lot going on. I can see that there is. I can see, for example, my own example can be for the Black Death Germany community or the Zula, the tribes that I've created, and so on and so forth and then I see that there's so many good people and a lot of good people wanting to do something good and to change different, different things that are not really working, some of the challenges that we can face, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:So, yes, it's slow, but it's there it's what is slow, because our own personality will come in the game. I mean, that's that's the. That's what it's about we. If we don't we, if we don't look at ourselves as human being and true from the upbringing to be who you are today, so many different things happen to you. So that journey is a journey of retrospective sometimes. So you have to look back and look at yourself and ask yourself okay, and again, one of the questions that we always ask is why is the person doing what the person is doing? I'm like because it's a person. Or why don't you ask what happened to that person? Because that question is a different type of question. It's not about what the person is doing, because the root is about what happened to that person.
Speaker 4:So if you understand where the causes are, the core of the issue and, and you don't think that this is a kind of a German kind of slowness, the one that makes you know it's a human kind of beauty airport for 10 years.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's a human as a human kind of slowness.
Speaker 2:I really as your political no, I like to be a politician, so well because everywhere you will go right every time you travel, you will understand what peace mean for different people. Like you go to italy, for example. I mean, there is a, you take a break, you have something to eat in the afternoon and then you come back like it's a different way of life. So, and and when you have your own way of life and you have your own pace, of course that's all right. But now do we want everyone to just walk like that? That, in the context of Germany, for example, it means that you have to do a test and then know everything about German laws, which is something that no one would know anyway, and then all talking, you know. Speaking German means that you now pass the test of being someone that is being integrated. Then we kind of have different priorities. Those are misplaced priorities.
Speaker 2:So it's not about that. It's about the value. It's about the value. It's about the value that human being will be bringing in the spaces that they want to take over. So if you give me the right to, you know, expand my heart and you know my wings and be creative, why do you think that one of my day couldn't be like three days in one? That's possible, but if you want me to be in a cage just because of whatever it is, of a piece of paper, and we've seen when we we're talking about the dilemma, we've seen that dilemma right even in the black desk germany community, where you basically have to go into. You know how much you can compromise just for the sake of being here and staying here and what it means to you psychologically.
Speaker 2:What it means to you, you know, and not just to you, Because we can't forget that it means something not just to you, but to your partner and to your kids, and to your community and the environment, so the society itself. Well, we've seen it with COVID right. You get sick, that's it.
Speaker 4:Some of the questions that us in the community are asking is when we're raising our children here, how do you go about it? How do we raise them to stand in their own power as opposed to apologize for it? It's interesting that you talked about crossing the red lights, because with my son, the way we learned that was that he would see the red light and everything. But I oftentimes tell him look, okay, there's a red light, there's a green light and all of that. But the whole point is for you to use your mind. So let me show you how I learned it.
Speaker 4:You look left you look right and then you look right, and then you look again, and then you pass, because in lagos, oh, the car might be coming well, not even, not even just in lagos in paris.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 4:So but what that does is that he also teaches you alertness. You know you move with a sense of alertness as opposed to moving. This so like reliance on those lights. Now it is not contending with a child learning about the red lights and everything, but there is also other cognitive possibilities and you know signs that are possible. How do you see that?
Speaker 2:I see that in a way of life, right, in your way of life, I think and I like to say that it's not just about books and documentaries and movies and so on and so forth. That's all right, because there's someone else playing that movie and that someone else you know directing that movie, that someone else writing the book, someone else you know you're gonna have to write your own book, you're gonna have to write your own book, you're going to have to write your own movie, and so on and so forth. So I think, going back to what you said, love is key, of course. And then that's the first thing, right, love is key.
Speaker 2:Empowering children, which means that taking back the power that has been because we feel like we're powerless, which is not true, right, it's a concept that makes us feel sometimes like that. That's why we have to create all of these communities that we have to create. But empowering them, what does it mean exactly? It's really just making things normal. So I don't think that the idea of just all the time talking about those specific topics, whatever it is, from the color of the skin to the hairs, the eyes and the lips, whatever it is, and so on and so forth. I don't think that that's really really what we have to do all the time, but I think that we have to show them how we take over spaces. And then we have to use our common sense.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're a child and they ask you what do you want to be tomorrow, and so on and so forth, you're dreaming. So as a child and as a grown up, as an adult. If you stop dreaming that, you've killed that child. So what's the point? Right? So by keep on dreaming and by keep on just saying that you know, wow, remember, I wanted to be an astronaut. Well, what? What stops you from wanting to be that astronaut? Is that about people saying something? And why don't we come to the point where we don't care so much about whoever has to say something?
Speaker 4:we say you know, you talked about, you know, with love, and it's oftentimes when we say love now, it's like, okay, it's a cliche.
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 4:a cliche for you.
Speaker 1:Not, really, not really at all.
Speaker 4:It's something that is very tangible and speaking of which, this morning I spoke to my son for the first time about God. First time about God because I've been I've been waiting and thinking of how to begin to to speak to him about God in a way that is tangible, realistic and also the way he will understand and it's. I found myself being somewhat nervous because I've been pushing it away and waiting, you nervous you nervous? Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can be wow, yeah, yeah yeah, did you know that it?
Speaker 4:doesn't look like, but I can be, but it's interesting. We started just spontaneously and he asked me what God is and I said, for instance, papa does not give you air, the air that you breathe. You know we can give you everything, I give you everything, but I don't give you air, right that you breathe. You know we can give you everything, I give you everything, but I don't give you air, right, but you breathe. And he made a joke yeah, except the air you breathe out, which is really like awful. I'm like, yeah, exactly, you know mama doesn't give you air. So, but who makes air?
Speaker 4:And but, most importantly also, we talked about how god is the power that holds everything together in place. I think this was a concept that he could relate to, because he saw things. He's always known about things being all independent, moving around, but then just doing their own thing. Human beings are just moving around, but you can't see what is propping them up. You know everything is standing, but you don't see what is standing them. So at that point I felt like he related to the idea of God being this power that holds everything together and because of that, everything is interrelated. But then he now said so, which means God is everything. I said, yes, god is everything. So, which means God is not a man or a woman? I said, exactly, because God is everything. So we were just having like this very carefree conversation, but it came to this point where it's about how things are connected, that everything is connected.
Speaker 4:But most importantly, I said to him that God is love. He says hmm, interesting. So what is love? He asked. And I said to him first of all, love is absence of hate, and if you have love, you will not harm something else. And then we came back to the idea of air. So since you don't give yourself air, since no one gives you air and you don't give yourself air, so why would you take away air from someone else?
Speaker 2:So are we talking about religion?
Speaker 4:I'm just trying to well because some of these books there are some books reason why reason why I was going that way was also because was inspired by all the whole sentiments of annihilation and killings that is happening recently and that, for the most part, is being tolerated, as you know, and it's being divided over those who are own person and those who are not. You know, and this is a sentiment that I have felt so strongly in these past days here in in berlin and in germany, there are some people who belong to, those who can be sympathized, but then there are so those who you know we can just watch them on the news every day. They died, they died. So at that point I wanted to make my son understand that everyone is included in that why I was where I was going with that also was that it is the reason why we are different.
Speaker 4:it is a beautiful thing that we are different, but we have not come to the point of really recognizing the wealth of that difference. So people have been, um, killed, subjugated because of their difference, and by the time we got to the metro that was what we were discussing that you are in your school, in your bilingual school, where you have all your friends coming from different places. Because difference is beautiful and because god is everything, that difference has to be respected and acknowledged. So again, uh, we come back to this idea of Ubuntu. And even in the Igbo cosmology, which is my mother tongue you know the Igbo from Nigeria the human being is called, or we say, madu, and it literally translates to beauty is Beauty, is.
Speaker 4:So, in other words, the human being is a personification of beauty. It is not. Beauty was or beauty is going to be. It is continuous. It is something that is almost eternal. It always happens. Beauty is, in other words, at the very core of the concept of the human being is beauty. It doesn't mean that every human being carries that or embodies that, but the very concept of the human being is beauty. It doesn't mean that every human being carries that or embodies that, but the very concept of the human being is beauty. Everything else on top of it is another story. Yeah, but that is what needs to be respected and protected.
Speaker 2:Are you saying that there is a lack of continuity around you in the context of's say, in the context of berlin, not even germany, let's say berlin there's a lack of understanding this that continuity is. It's not just a concept or an idea, that is something that is happening. The reason why I ask it because I'm going back to you when I ask how are we talking about religion or spirituality?
Speaker 2:if you're a spiritual person, then you understand that there was a life before that you had. Before being here you had a life, or being here you have it, and after this life you're still gonna have it right. And then, for those that are religious, they still us in the bible. It's in the bible it says you know when you died, your body stays. And then, for those that are religious, they steal us in the bible. It's in the bible. It says you know when you died, your body stays, and then your spirit. You know if you've done some great things.
Speaker 4:So I'm much more interested in this idea of how things connect, much more than we know actually and and how they sort of like interweave into each other.
Speaker 4:And what I see, or what I feel, is this sense of paradox where in a place like berlin, a place like germany, where that should be the bigger conversation about this humanity that is interconnected, but instead everything is reduced to you know who is the ally and who is not.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so again, when I see my son, who is german, you know in all sense of the word, you know it's so interesting, such a bilingual in all you know, actually trilingual, because he speaks a bit of ibo as well, but fluent in english, fluent in german, being raised here. And then you say, how do you even make him understand that kind of paradox where you don't speak to a kind of diversity, and he sees it everywhere, but the policies, the one that organizes, um, the society that he lives in and is going to grow in, you know, it's just taking a different. So again, that for me I feel like is, uh, is a conundrum that we find ourselves. And and where I'm going with all of this is that when you think of it from that angle, you want to step up your everyday, you want, want to step up your activity to protect that. It's almost like you are trying to put something of humanity in a place that that idea is being threatened almost every day.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely, as you were talking, I was asking myself what, what, what, especially the, the last part of what you said, like protection, right, so, and then I was asking myself what, what is there that we've been trying to protect? Um, why do we even have to protect something? And you remember we had this conversation in your studio. Back to your studio. We're talking about the place of our dreams and, by extension, the place of the dreams of our children, right, and it was a very, very interesting conversation because it was really about coming from that generation, at least, from where I was born. I was born in cameron, so I saw things that might seem very.
Speaker 2:I could be an alien if I start talking about some of these things being here in Germany, but again, we kind of have a lot of these different values, because I will never go into argue that there is no, there is a specific community. When I talk about community, I don't really talk about just a community. Berlin is a community to me, so germany is a community, so, and communities, they do have values. And but values, uh, ubuntu, which is like right now, we may even think about ubuntu as a philosophy, but it's really a way of life, so it's beyond any concept, right. So it's really. There is no concept that we can. We cannot put it into a concept, basically.
Speaker 2:So, as we're talking about trying to or protecting our children and this is something that, as fathers, we always have, especially in in this context we feel like we have to do it every single day I kind of asked myself sometime why should we do that? Right, when we I do have some answers, of course why we should do that, but we feel so powerless because when they leave as you were you, you left your boy, it took the train, he went to school. This is the that at that moment, you understand you don't have so much power anymore. Right, there's nothing you can do. So, as you're training your boy, as I'm training my, my kids and my and now my daughter is in some kind of crazy training camp with me sometimes, but that also has its own limitation.
Speaker 2:So, as you were talking, I was like, yeah, I get you. That's really like you're preaching to the church right now. That's great, I got it. That's really like you're preaching to the church right now. That's great, I got it. But my question to you will be how can we really actually protect them. Like eight hours later they come back home and eight hours later a lot of things just happen. How much did they even say? Right, of course we're training them to talk about everything, but as a human being, at some point you ask yourself how much do we really want to say?
Speaker 4:And I think this is a very valid concern amongst many, I would say, inhabitants of a place like Berlin who do not just take every day for granted. I mean, there are people who live here knowing that you can't take things at face value.
Speaker 4:You can't just wake up and say, okay, this is how things are done.
Speaker 4:It's almost like for every day you have to do something to hack the day, to bend it, to shape it.
Speaker 4:You know, you move through the space with almost a very visceral, tangible notion of shaping it to become what you want it to become, while some people just go with the flow because that's how they go. But there are people who really like, if they they don't do that, they feel like it's all naturally going to disempower them, and I I feel like that's that's basically in the in the community that I live in people who are constantly, they are proactive in a very, very intense way and they have two options either they just be that way or they just dip into some sort of like lukewarmness and demotivation. You know and I see that a lot amongst in the black community, where it feels like an uphill battle and so people just do the minimum why there are people who really go follow. For instance, there are a lot of children who grow up in their family, in their community and then, for instance, in the Ghanaian community, the Nigerian community, within their family they speak the language proper.
Speaker 4:Like they grow up with the language within and even, you know, like Ethiopian community many of them I've've seen where, but they got that just by the way the parents have shaped the family. So there's what is happening outside, but there's also what is happening within the family and and being very, very conscious of, of how one moves in the world, and I feel like that's the the source of the optimism really in other words.
Speaker 4:Um, this optimism is not just a fleeting like you know, like's just. It's not a blissful optimism. It's rather a careful optimism in the sense that Toni Morrison used it, that in the world you live in there is nothing around you that promises you that things will go the way you want it. You still go ahead and do it anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you still go ahead and do it and do it, and I feel like that is more or less the reality of many of us who wake up in the morning and realize that on one side of the equation there is just business as usual, there is just maintaining the status quo because it is convenient, but on the other side, it's really having a sense that one can shape the future by, you know, the, the, the, the, the choices they make or they don't make at this point in time.
Speaker 2:No, um, yeah there's a lot there.
Speaker 4:Right, there's a lot there and and then I was, and we'll have just a few minutes before we open it up and we'll have just a few minutes before we open it up.
Speaker 2:I was asking myself because I see your points right. I see in the community those that don't do the work sometimes I wish we could talk about why that doesn't happen.
Speaker 4:We spoke about it a little bit this morning.
Speaker 2:Yes, can you maybe come back about it a little?
Speaker 4:bit this morning. Yes, yes, um, can you. Can you maybe come back to that a little bit?
Speaker 2:yes, um, I think I strongly believe that there is something that people that are coming here, if you're coming here, if you're born here, it's pretty much different. Different because you socialize in a way where it's different. The culture is different, the environment is different, the language, what you eat, what you see different. The culture is different, the environment is different, the language, what you eat, what you see, the way it is different. Oh, berlin, I've been here for 20 years, so it's different. But when you come here, and if you're not coming here as a child and then you come in here as a teenager, you already you've been shaped and sharpened differently and so it's so much important to bring it along with you and to keep it that's the game.
Speaker 2:That's the game and, and that is really basically just a tribe mentality, right like in everything that I'm doing, for all the stuff that I'm doing. Um, there is one thing that I kept on is the tribe mentality, and the tribe mentality means that it's really not just about solving problems and issues and but it's about learning the Ubuntu, you know, we talked about and holding it, and holding it to be so tangible in a reality like this.
Speaker 4:It could just be like okay, this is just concept.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't work.
Speaker 4:There is no, it's almost like there is no fertile ground, definitely everything is a project.
Speaker 2:Everything in germany, in berlin. Everything is a project. Right now, that's a project so it's a project.
Speaker 4:It can be like part of one's life yes, well, it's so.
Speaker 2:It's so easy to be caught up into events right it's like the way the eventfulness of things? Oh, of course. Why? Why? Because, and what? What we forget sometimes is an event will always have a beginning and the end, right. So when there's a beginning, it's fine, and then, and that's it, and the next day you have to think about the next one. So as you're thinking about the next one, life is still just being life, and then you get in trouble.
Speaker 4:The reason why you get in trouble is because it's not natural so how did I put it this morning that for every household there is a an admin office exactly?
Speaker 2:it is.
Speaker 4:You wake up in the morning, and we didn't grow up that way in in africa, by the way, in nigeria, it was, that was one of the culture shocks and when I came to europe that for in your house there is an admin desk yes where you'd make your papers yes, and everything.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's for a long time.
Speaker 4:It took me so long to even up until now I haven't adjusted. So it's like your life is a project your life is still a project.
Speaker 2:It has to be a project because there's a system that wants to function in a specific way, specific way so you have the choice between being part of that system or being outside of the system you have to like. I have three people working for the zula organization right now. So I have to trick the system for them to be working for that organization three years, being funded by European fund, because I decided they didn't fund anything. I put them there as founders and those are three young women, very, very smart, extremely smart, and I was like I'm going to give you the opportunity to just do whatever you believe that you want to do here and make this great. People need to breathe, people need to expand, right. So if you have the choice between really deciding that, okay, you can run as a system, or it's not really just about tricking the system. It's about understanding how you take over any single space you decide to take, not for yourself, but for the sake of whatever community you want to lift up. So we carry.
Speaker 2:What I like to acknowledge is the fact that, okay, there's still a system that is not just giving opportunities to everyone. So what people don't really understand sometimes is, if you're black dead and if you're a black person here in Germany and you're black dead, right, and you are isolated, the skills that you have that you can bring for the community of Berlin is not happening right. So not only are you losing, but the whole community is losing. So now, if you extend it a little bit to just your own family, you start being depressed. There is a trouble.
Speaker 2:So how many you know therapists? How many therapists really understand what it is to be a black dad in Germany and being depressed? What does it mean? There's no study, there's no, nothing out there really like where you can read a piece of paper that says this is how they function, whatever they means right. So and and it's because it's because, of course, the norm is right if we think about our clothes is if we think about our glasses, whatever it is, everyone that is building anything in this country is building it based on a different shape than the shape of a black person and and because, also integration, the idea of integration is a form of re-infantilization, because you have to forget everything you know before coming and then you have to learn all of these new things, and then this part of you is almost like in a silo somewhere and not finding the community and the right way to sort of like move itself.
Speaker 4:We were talking about this this morning, that perhaps the way to go about this is to begin to look for new methods of engaging with the community in a more visceral way. Forget about the WhatsApp and all the social media and really go to people and hang out with them. Definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, you called me this morning and then you just wondered that I picked up the phone. So most of the time you say, hey, can I call you, are you ready? Do you have time? Yeah, so we start with a question mark. What does it mean? So, back home, back home, you will never. Now, first of all, I mean, we forgot that phone started like 20 years ago that's not so long like mobile phones, all of these things like 20 years ago, really, like with technology, and all of these things. Facebook started like what, 15 years ago, something like it's not too old, so. And. And then I still ask myself sometime when you are, you know, in a relationship and then you have this kind of trouble where it's like, hey, I sent you a message, you haven't replied and I'm like, why don't you just call me? Come on now, like we, we are moving in in this space as, not really as people using their own common sense so we kind of have to breathe a little bit, and if you don't observe how you're breathing, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Right, you can make a day, three days. So why? Because you was, you were always going to observe how you're breathing. So every time people ask me why, how you come, you do all of these things that you do and I'm like because I'm spreading a lot of love outside so if you spread, if you spread love, it's not difficult.
Speaker 2:You create tribes, you create tribes, and those tribes, you know, just need not a leader, because in every tribe there's a leader so when we talk about the black death readers now in in five, in five seven different um places in germany we talk about the listening, going in, you know, on tour and some stuff like that I'm like, yeah, but this, this is because some of these days I haven't even met them after three and a half years and they are number going mentioned, doing some stuff that we're doing here. So why? Because you understand that you don't need to create an event.
Speaker 2:It shouldn't be eventful, it's about connection it's about a proper network proper network and connection and I strongly believe that we as people, especially as black people and now, more interestingly, as black fathers, you have to have to create those tribes. And then we were having our brunch the last time the black that's brunch, which is like a workshop, without telling a name, right. So now what people might say? We black people, we love chicken. There's always a chicken around and then we're enjoying the food and then that's so nice. But I just told, because someone just asked so yeah, so how do I do this? How do I do that? I was like, why are you still asking how do you do this? Just do it. The reason why I say that is because I was saying, hey, why don't you just say I'm gonna make some fufu this saturday? Throw it in the group. More than 200 people are there.
Speaker 2:You're definitely gonna have five, ten brothers coming knocking on the door and, as you saying, hey, I'm making some fufu, you just say, hey, make sure that you bring your own fufu. So the house. So when we start creating some of these methods without really putting a label that's why I'm saying I'm not a big fan of label so we can talk about label so much and put things into concept, it always have to be a concept and some stuff like that. I'm like something like that is so organic, it's just so natural, and that's how we used to do it. I remember my grandfather. The family house was like we had this huge terrace and then, and then on the other side, the street, basically, and then, as it was built, and then people just asking, maybe the children, his children just say, why don't you just, you know, build a wall? It was like are you kidding me? This is a house of people, so you will sit down. You know this veranda, as we call it, and then my, my friend, would be running down the street or they would just shout my name. I will hear them, but you don't wait for a phone call, you don't even ask hey, emeka are home, can I just come? What are you doing? And some stuff like that. I have my friend.
Speaker 2:Where I'm living is a crazy space in Schmargendorf. So if you know Berlin a little bit, schmargendorf, as is Sovise, as is Alice Weiss, it's the most wide space that you can imagine to be in. And then people still asking me why you do the things that you're doing. You talk about the things that you're doing, you talk about the things that you're talking. You're still living there, I'm like, because I love the nature and water, why you care so much about where I'm living.
Speaker 2:So, but what I'm trying to say, I have a friend of mine that is living on the other side, because it's between, you know, dalem and vilma, stuff. So, um, and then you go up. It's not so far. So sometimes we pick his car and they will always come, just knock them. You know ping pong, you know ring the bell at my place and I do the same. It never really asked me if I'm home. If I am not, then he would call me later and say, hey, I just came by, but you were not there. So those are really simple and organic and and very easy ways of making sure that we keep on knowing who we are, because it's really actually not about the other guys. You know it's not about the other people, because the more you're talking to people, the more you you really having that kind of interconnection you're talking about. You got to know yourself. You learn about yourself so much and what it means, right?
Speaker 2:So uh, yeah we have to find new methods definitely this has come full circle.
Speaker 4:I know you started with that, that idea of breathing, and so we've come back to it again a space to breathe and something that you said that really stood out. The last bit is how people are just moving and walking around with people without the common sense, because their common sense is not. There's really no space for that. So people sort of like move through this project like I mean, usually. You've seen how our commission's been, we it took us a little bit to even get into it. We're only about to start getting into the way we know how to talk with each other. Um, we're sort of like getting to it. But this is, this is something that you and I do, that we often touch it in a way. I would touch on that. There's really no space for us to discuss these things and this is what we're trying to find a way to give form to in Black Dash, germany, but also, like I proposed, you know what?
Speaker 4:is the relationship between Black Dash Germany and the Black women. You know because that is also very important. In fact, it is so necessary to make that link as well and this is something that, uh, I feel like it's a whole other space as well that needs its own reflection on how to even start to enter it.
Speaker 2:Definitely, it's needed. It's needed. I remember last year in december I was invited by a friend of mine. We met two times, so we had an event. It was about cooking. They were just punching on my face all the time. It was very interesting, because what you're saying right now, it was a very, very interesting conversation, because they always said, no, you're doing the work, you're doing the work. That's why you're talking like this, because they always say, no, you're doing the work, you're doing the work, that's why you're talking like this.
Speaker 2:And then I always try to say first of all, I learned what it means to be very humble for the things that I'm doing, because if you lead in so many different things, it means that you're serving, and you have to have a lot of passion and a lot of love to kind of wake up every day and to do some of these things, I feel like that's you and I am, and I am, and I am very. Every time, that's what I say when I wake up. I have to acknowledge that.
Speaker 5:Wow, another day I can breathe so where am I going with this right?
Speaker 2:so it's very important, and but I was. And then the question was really, she just asked she's a mother. And then she just basically say why is that that these brothers and these brothers and these brothers are doing this and I'm doing that and I'm doing this? And I said, okay, okay, one thing we have to understand, brothers, whatever it is, we're talking about human being and as human being. Now, when life becomes life, life doesn't look at the color of your skin. Life will break you, we'll put you on your knees and we'll tell you there's something you have to learn here, you have the choice between learning or dismissing, deflecting or so.
Speaker 2:And then I said, yeah, we have to first acknowledge sometimes that we don't know. If you don't know, you don't, that's all right. And then the second is it's important to acknowledge that most of us, we are broken. We are broken Not because we decided to, because, as I said previously, it's not about what someone has done. And if I ask my child, why are you doing what you're doing? I always ask what happened to you, because there must be a reason why that person is doing what that person is doing. What happened? So in that, what happened? It's a different, different conversation. And so now we also have to make sure that in the black community, we do our own homework and the homework is really understanding that.
Speaker 2:Actually, and what I'll usually say is I am a black father but I'm not an expert on fatherhood. What do you think we're talking about? It doesn't really make me. You know, I didn't go to school for that.
Speaker 2:The reason why I am is because I will use my common sense, and the reason why I am if I will assume that I am really an expert on the topic of fatherhood is because I love and I understand that love will always carry things that I would never imagine love can carry, because, whatever will happen, if there are misunderstandings, if someone is hurt, if someone is, we like to say it going crazy. Whatever we want to define by going crazy, someone is going nuts. Whatever we want to define by going nuts, if I still just love, because love become the center of everything and anything else that is moving around, love stays. We have to come back to that. If you come back to that, you survive, that's all right. Doesn't make me an expert. I don't know and I don't really want to know, and it's all right the commission has taken his own shape.
Speaker 4:You know, um, I mean, I got a lot from it. I don't about you, so please feel free if you have questions, things you would like to add.
Speaker 5:So, first of all, thank you very much. I really valued this conversation. I have two questions. One was to understand more about why you experienced that isolation. More about why you experienced that isolation. You all have made reference, you both have made reference to the communities that are here, but yet you felt that isolation and I didn't quite understand why and I would really like to understand why. That's the first, and then the second you referred to the fact that you've created tribes and tribes interact with other tribes and engage with other tribes. So the question about Black Dads, germany, which other tribes are you seeking to engage with, to have conversations with, or is the focus really about connecting and conversations within your tribe? So those two questions, thank you.
Speaker 2:To answer your first question first of all, thank you. Thank you very much for your question and really appreciate that. And why are we isolated? Is it's really definitely because there's a concept of representation right in the media right now a lot, so what? But what? What does it mean if I leave my house and I leave to go and I'm out there and then I don't see people having that experience that I have first? And second, if I don't have a room or a space to talk about my experience? And third, if I come to the point where, as I'm even trying to talk about my experience, I'm shut down, so we can go on and on and on, and then I will feel isolated, definitely, and that isolation doesn't have a.
Speaker 2:And then we talked about it when we were talking about racism having a different face today, right, like we can talk about passive racism, active racism, we can talk about all tax racism, all of this concept, but actually, um, being isolated come from the fact that there are so many societal biases, right, so there are prejudice, there are stereotypes, there are so many different things that we have to face and those and that's why we're not even talking about safe space. We we're talking about safer space, right? For instance, we are in the public space. This is a public space, right? So when we come in, there is a door and that door has a bell, so you have to ring the bell before you come in.
Speaker 2:What we're trying to make sure is that not everyone comes in, but who is missing in the room? What does it even mean when everyone cannot come in? Why? Because the concept is security, and then we'll be in that room. We will feel secure, or some of us. I wouldn't. Because why? Because there are cameras, all the stuff is very nice, we get some drinks and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:But then in the conversation, someone now I'm my child, I am my child right now someone will ask my child, me, why do you speak so good german? So we, we, we from it's. It's pretty much obvious, right, like for some people, it's not. It's not because the concept of you know, feeling secure or feeling safe, not feeling isolated, is so different. But now, when we put it in on this mental kind of level, you always go home If you don't have that tribe. This is what I didn't have. That's why I created those tribes. I felt so isolated because of those simple steps that you take in every single time. You leave your own space. Just to answer your first question. So the second question how are we just building a tribe within the Black Death Germany community At the moment? Yes, it's a very young community we're talking about three and a half years and the idea was to make sure that we can first understand who we are, and that's so important For anyone that wants to. It's so important that we self-reflect and understand who we are and by who we are. It's not just understanding blackness. That's very complicated and I think after 100, 200 years we're still asking ourselves what does it mean? So maybe we should stop asking ourselves what it means. Maybe I don, I don't know. But what I'm trying to say is by understanding what we have now.
Speaker 2:We are trying to build a structure, so it was about building a community, but of course, I'm having a lot of conversations, especially the conversation we started, which. What about having a room with black women and have conversation? What about creating a space where it's not even about cis men anymore, but gay, queer? That might shock some people. But what about having space where we talk with ally? Allyship is something that sometimes we talk about it just when something is happening, but we have to kind of figure out how do we make allyship being something that is a normal concept? But then in that space, how do we make sure that it's safe and so on and so forth for anyone that is coming in?
Speaker 2:Yes, for the moment it's really just about us and making sure about us and our family, and by that I mean white parents having black children, like, for example, if I ask, how many books do we have out there about a black father adopting a white child? Do you know one book? Thank you. So we kind of have to be looking at. What is life about? The common sense? Again, I hope I could answer your questions.
Speaker 4:It's an interesting question the why, the isolation, despite the communities, the black person who crosses the border. Every time you cross a border, there's a kind of paradox. It's contradictory. It's what we've called schizophrenia, called all many different names, but it's really a paradox. If you look at it in the way it forms in your everyday reality, it's almost like something is not aligned. But also the society and it's a very hegemonic society makes you feel like there's something wrong with this paradox. But it's also a paradox that we are very conversant with in the way we move. So it's not like something that we cannot really embody, but it's just that there's no space for that.
Speaker 4:So you realize that most black people who live in the Western reality are, first of all, spending a good amount of their time, of their reality, of their life, trying to adjust themselves within a very constricted way of moving.
Speaker 4:And for some way of moving, and for some it begins to look like, no, I'm much more than this, but for many others they just, you know, go inward and inward and inward, and what we are beginning to see now is people like allah myself moving with a sense nah, we are much more than this.
Speaker 4:You know, I can't take that cue from you anymore. We are much more than this, but that much more is not to say we turn our back to the West. In fact, it is to even contribute to the West, but in a way that is much more expansive. And this is very much the reality of the diaspora community as different from africans in the continent, because it's a whole different conversation. But first of all, before we get to that empowerment, you have to wait through all of that sort of like. I would say it's very, very illusory shaping and some people are moving comfortably through it because it's been shaped for them, but many others are constricted by that and what you see is this pocket of bubbles of where energy is just dissipated, dissipated and hemorrhaging.
Speaker 4:Hemorrhaging all the time I think it's a hemorrhage, and it's also a hemorrhaging of the soul, a draining of the soul. And then when people like we invited many black people here today how many they saw the poster on on whatsapp delighted, delighted, delighted.
Speaker 2:They liked it.
Speaker 4:But when the time came to move their body and presence to the place difficult. It's a hemorrhaging it's difficult yet there's so much power in moving yourself, so much in fact, the moment you move yourself, you wait through all of those illusions right away yeah that's what he's doing.
Speaker 4:That's what he's doing with. That's what he said. When he wakes up in the morning, he does this, he does this. He first of all take back his time, because when you do do that, that's the first thing. But the truth is, the moment you have willed yourself to move in that way, you realize it's all an illusion. And, worst of all, this ally he's talking about and these other communities, they are actually looking up to us to give some meaning to all of this, to all of this.
Speaker 2:They are looking up to us.
Speaker 4:But many of us don't know that yet because we are in this state of hemorrhaging, hemorrhaging, draining and draining.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to us.
Speaker 4:Thank you for listening. Thanks a lot, thank you.
