Zoos and safari parks are tasked with not only running a profitable attraction, but investing that profit into suitable premises for wildlife conservation, presenting a unique challenge from a building surveyor’s perspective. How do these leisure assets balance profitability alongside ESG?
In this podcast, Ginny Banham MRICS (Fisher German LLP) is joined by Richard Baldwin MRICS (Avison Young) and Richard Morris MRICS (Property Surv) to share their views on a unique arm of the surveying profession, drawing on their experiences and learnings.
This episode of The RICS Podcast covers:
Zoos and safari parks are tasked with not only running a profitable attraction, but investing that profit into suitable premises for wildlife conservation, presenting a unique challenge from a building surveyor’s perspective. How do these leisure assets balance profitability alongside ESG?
In this podcast, Ginny Banham MRICS (Fisher German LLP) is joined by Richard Baldwin MRICS (Avison Young) and Richard Morris MRICS (Property Surv) to share their views on a unique arm of the surveying profession, drawing on their experiences and learnings.
This episode of The RICS Podcast covers:
Surveying stories: at the zoo! Episode 112
SPEAKERS Ginny Banham MRICS, Richard Baldwin MRICS and Richard Morris MRICS
Ginny Banham MRICS 00:09
Welcome to the RICS Podcast, bringing you insight and opinion on the built environment from around the world. I'm Ginny Banham MRICS, a the chartered surveyor at Fisher German. I'm joined by Richard Baldwin MRICS, a chartered valuer and director of leisure at Avison Young, and Richard Morris MRICS, a chartered building surveyor and director of PropertySurv. Today we are focusing on animals and more specifically zoos. They say you should never work with animals, but is this true for surveying? What role do surveyors have in the design, value and maintenance of zoos?
Now you're both from different backgrounds, but united by experience, could you share a bit more about your work and how you came to be involved with zoos and Safari parks?
Richard Baldwin MRICS 00:57
So I sort of stumbled into this market, initially through working at a couple of specialist niche practices back in the late 1990s. That was Edward Simmons, and then Humberts Leisure. We're involved with all sorts of unusual trading leisure assets as general practice surveyors and we were building a reputation in specifically the visitor attraction sector, both with operators, lenders and advisors. One of the major instructions that I dealt with quite a long time ago was the sale of a portfolio of 12 sea life aquariums, and they were owned by Varden, who's now Merlin Entertainments. And that mandate, essentially, got my name around the industry in the sector and helped me build on the foundation for numerous other instructions within the animal based attractions sector, including zoos and safari parks, and much besides. So that's how I sort of stumbled into this sector.
Richard Morris MRICS 01:56
Well, in a previous client side role, I was responsible for overseeing the built environment of a private rural estate and that estate comprised the safari park. So prior to that, I was working for various consultancies, largely multidisciplinary consultancies - it was quite a change of scenery. Literally. The safari park itself was only a small part of the overall estate, all be it was in terms of scale and built assets. But overall, it was by far the most interesting part. When I initially joined the estate. There was a real desire to modernise and develop the site. Therefore being responsible for leading on the capital projects and master planning, I quickly became involved in the zoological world or animal world. And projects included everything from redesigning a Siberian tiger enclosure, bush dog enclosure, adaptions to Rhino yard, and various feasibilities that I was working on all the way up to last year, in fact, which was related to elephant housing, Savannah restaurants overlooking a savanna with mixed species to red squirrel enclosures that were integrated with woodland play. So that's sort of how I fell into the sector and started to learn a bit more about the zoo world, for lack of a better word.
Ginny Banham MRICS 03:32
Just on that final point, Richard, for you it's a very different surveying background - how did you start with rearranging the various enclosures? I'm sure it's not something you come across very often!
Richard Morris MRICS 03:44
No, it's not! Well, throughout my career, I've maintained a broad basis as a building surveyor. So I haven't gone off and specialised in any specific areas, like colleagues go off and specialise in maybe dilapidations or projects. But I've maintained a sort of broad spectrum, and in that I've done quite a few projects in various sectors. So I'm quite familiar with running projects from initial feasibility stage all the way through to completion. And it was no different in this sector. The only unique aspect I would say - well, it's not the only unique aspect, there's lots of unique aspects - but in every other sector, you're working with a design that is around humans, whereas in this case, you design around animals, and there's quite a vast array of different species with different attributes. And that was probably one of the most interesting elements, working with curators and animal keepers and trying to understand animal behaviour in terms of how it may affect the actual design of an enclosure. The tiger enclosure that I mentioned, was, for instance, a disused woodland area. And we were trying to build the enclosure inside an existing woodland. And the idea of doing that was we were creating one an environment that was consistent with the, with the tiger's natural habitat, the woodland was, you know, similar to some degree to what you would find in Siberia. But obviously with it being an existing woodland, it was already rich in its biodiversity. So from an animal enrichment perspective, it offered a lot of value. But on the other side of design is the immersive experience for the visitor. So having a walkway and a footpath within the same woodland, the visitor is sharing the same natural environment as the species which are enduring inside the enclosure. So when you put that together, it was a challenge physically, to do that in an existing water theory, as you can imagine, but the benefit you get from that you're borrowing a lot from the natural environment, which transforms the experience for the visitor.
Ginny Banham MRICS 06:02
See, it sounds like there's a lot of considerations. Was there also any like, obviously, with the usual property that we probably deal with in terms of like commercial or residential buildings, there's a lot of legislation to cover - did you have that same thing with setting up these enclosures? Or is it more down to the specific requirements of the animals like you've already alluded to?
Richard Morris 06:24
Yeah, in terms of regulations and guidance, there isn't that much to be honest, in terms of specific design information for a specific enclosure. So you do have the zoo licensing act, and that fed into the secretary of state standards for modern zoo practice. And in that there are some specific requirements, but they're limited to certain species, elephants, for instance. But if you consider the vast array of different species, it's probably difficult to create a catalogue of minimum standards for each different type. So with that, in mind, a lot of the input for the design comes from learning from others on previous projects. So when I was looking at the tiger trail, tiger enclosure, and I was looking at an elephant enclosure, at the same time, I was going around Europe and looking at some of the other collections, and trying to understand the functional requirements, because obviously, each species have its main attributes, which can sort of design for you know, some, some fly some jumps on deck, some are very susceptible to environment, or environmental conditions, temperature and whatnot. So we were trying to learn from previous projects, but then what you do find out when you work in the sector, is that just like humans, animals have their own individual character, and behaviours. So engaging with the people, which are the animal keepers, and the curators that are on the ground, looking after them is vital. Because one 1.5 metre long 900 pound Siberian tiger may be quite happy, just lounging around in his enclosure being fed on a regular basis. Whereas if you bring in another male from elsewhere, he may have a different temperament, a different behaviour and may decide to test the hotwire, may decide to test the stability and the fence! And it's important to sort of understand characteristics, so you design for the wider characteristics of how they can physically jump and dig. And then on top of that, you have to overlay it with the specifics for that specific individual animal to make sure that you are pretty much covering all the bases in terms of the design of the enclosure.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 08:41
And you want to you want to fundamentally try and exceed those minimum standards, don't you Richard? Because, you know, fundamental to these businesses is making sure that a the animals are well cared for and in environments that keep them active, etc. And well, and be that the visitor experience is good.
Richard Morris MRICS 08:58
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's it's continually evolved. And I think the more research that is done on species in the wild, you see the regulations grow and evolve. I mean, it's interesting when you look at if you ever compare Safari, to a zoo, on a master plan, perspective, so an aerial view, the two quite distinct and obviously that the safari park being a drive around attraction, primarily, yes, they do have to walk around areas, but largely, it's the driver aspect, but it's a large expanse of land with buildings dotted out quite well spaced. They have the ability to accommodate changes in regulation when it comes to scale. But the more of a challenge when it comes to accommodate in our improving the houses because of the infrastructure. So there's limitations in terms of that sense. Or in terms of zoos, they're very condensed, and they spread out generally from the core and gradually grow bigger. If you If they've got that ability around them, but for instance, if the regulations change, for instance, for elephants, and they need to provide a bigger paddock, how do you do that when it's situated in the corner of the zoo. So that's where people have to think a little bit laterally and outside the box and create possible corridors to take them out to the periphery of the site and maybe purchase another area of land that they can occupy.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 10:23
Which is quite interesting, because when you look at one of the most recent developments in this sector has been and correct me if I'm wrong, Richard, but the Yorkshire Wildlife Park, which basically had a blank canvas, yep. So they weren't starting from, you know, an old zoo and trying to modernise it, and they weren't necessarily restricted by land. So they have been fortunate enough to be able to really forward plans. So they've effectively got this hybrid attraction, which is essentially a zoo, but also a safari park because it is big, and they've got land around it in order to expand these corridors to not be hemmed in to make their enclosures quite big to forward plan for their core sort of business, which, which has been as I say - their core business, they rescued originally, lions from Romania, I think, brought them to Doncaster and everybody thought, well, blimey, why are they doing that? But then that was the catalyst to build this incredible attraction that it is now this incredible animal based attraction with polar bears, with lions with tigers, etc. But they're not constricted by land, per se. So they are they are sort of developing this hybrid, so to speak.
Richard Morris 11:43
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the great advantage you've got if you start with a blank canvas, so to speak. But one thing you do get from an existing natural landscape is that existing biodiversity, which plays a big part in the animal welfare, and the animal enrichment and the experience the animal has in that enclosure, a lot of collections to try and import that landscape is a challenge. And it takes a while as expensive. Yeah, absolutely at great cost. And then to try it. It's like, it's like with food, you can overlook the micro-nutrients. So it's the same with a natural environment like that for a species, that you can plant the same trees, you can come to the landscape, so it's similar to the natural environment from where they originally occurred. But it does it have that rich micro level biodiversity that offers a lot of stimulation and factors into the well being of the animal. So they do have, certainly that has its benefits from, from a design perspective for us as designers. But in terms of providing the the enrichment for the animal, there's, there's clearly pros and cons to that as well.
Ginny Banham MRICS 12:58
Richard, you touched on back there, Yorkshire Wildlife Park, and coincidentally, that's five minutes from our office in Doncaster. And in my time since I've been working at Doncaster, it's definitely, like you said, grown massively, and it's become more of a destination, if you like. So people can go o the cafe there or go shopping there without having to go into the visitor attraction and they have, like their wildlife. I think it's called a Christmas light display and all that sort of things have, have you both seen that elsewhere and other sort of attractions of this nature, making sort of those changes? And if so, do you want to maybe expand on what you've seen elsewhere that may be similar or different to what they're doing at Yorkshire Wildlife Park.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 13:41
So if I just rewind a little bit, fundamentally, the the value of these assets from a surveying point of view is is essentially a factor of the sustainable profitability in the of the underlying business. And they're commonly traded or bought and sold as trading entities. And that's how we are that's how I value and assess worth and market value of these assets, so that they're bought and sold like you would have a hotel or a pub, etc. And that sustainability of profit is driven, essentially, by visitor numbers and visitor spend. And over the years, the visitor and the public has become more discerning and quick to judge, particularly when it comes to you know, captivity of wild animals, etc. And, therefore, fundamentally, it's, it's really important to make sure that the infrastructure that sits around the ease and the viewing facilities, and the enclosures that those animals are in are of a high quality, and that the the visitors can see that those animals are well cared for and interested in and engaged and obviously we vote with our feet don't be so if they're not of that quality, then the underlying sustainability of the profit diminishes. And then that comes back to the question of actually Can you can you create more profitability, or make the business more sustainable by doing doing other things that aren't necessarily focused on the core animals. And that's where we're seeing this diversification and this sort of monetization of the asset in and around the fundamentals that they are animal based attractions. But to give them a longer period of core trading, so not so reliant on that Easter Week and the core months in the summer, to broaden the appeal. And, and certainly, I think what they're doing at the Yorkshire Wildlife Park is is is excellent in terms of broadening the appeal. And also not necessarily being fully reliant on people needing to pay to go into the actual attraction itself. But they can go there and use the other facilities that are built around what is called I think, the hive. So you've got retailing there, you've got cafes, restaurants, you've actually got a hotel there. And you've also got a, an arena. So you know, that can hold big events and hold concerts and all sorts of bits and bobs. And that is just fundamentally the business trying to monetize and become more sustainable. And we see it all throughout lots of sectors of leisure, but particularly on visitor attractions, where you're trying to convince people to spend their discretionary, leisure spend, and convince them to come to your attraction, and you've got to make that attraction look good, and hold that visitor there. Because you've also got to get some dwell time out of them. Because fundamentally, the higher the dwell time, the higher the secondary spent. So yeah, seeing lots of these things. Accommodation is also one of the one of the main drivers and I think Richard, probably you've got some experience of putting accommodation in some of the places he's he's advised on, which is one of the other drivers to to secondary spend and the sustainability of the business.
Richard Morris MRICS 16:51
Yeah, I've worked on quite a few different feasibilities for the likes of bolt on revenue generators, such as adventure play our accommodation. And it's sort of going back to the reason the sites do this is purely like Richard says, it's around the commercial enterprise aspect, you know, they've got to be profitable, they've got to pay for themselves. But in terms of zoos and safaris, to maintain and look after such a collection of species is expensive. And the more conservation aspects to it, that aren't just situated in the site, such as research abroad, or breeding programmes, or reintroduction programmes, which a lot of zoos and safaris are involved with, they're not just the visitor attraction on the site, that all brings with it extra cost, the changes in regulation that continue to progress and push the boundaries in terms of animal housing, and well being that adds extra cost over time. And then, like most sectors, now, the impact of inflation, whether that's the impact on food, or whether that's the impact on energy, and heating these houses, for instance, there's a bit of a conflict between the heating of houses and energy conservation. And the welfare requirements, such as the design to have an enclosure and house which gives free access to the species is able to go freely in and out of the house, back into the enclosure, at its own direction. So in terms of heat in a building, that creates a great challenge. You've got essentially large openings, but yet you're trying to maintain quite high temperature internally. So that creates a sort of design issue in terms of how do you create a sufficient break between the internal and the external, to me that maintain that energy efficiency. So there's, there is a crossover with some of these things. And any all that's sort of pressure on the collection when it comes to maintaining the standards that are now required, and expected for animals in captivity. So the commercial element has to evolve. And these bolt ons are necessary, not only to fund that part, but to remain profitable. And I think the challenge is making sure there isn't too much conflict between the two. Some places will hold quite large events, but the proximity of those events to the animal enclosures is important. Obviously noise and lighting is an impact, potential risk, and also things like light shells that are held in the evening, you know, all these things would can potentially cause stress to animals in captivity, so it's vital that that element is managed as well from an operation perspective and a lot of places do very well you know, just the zoos a great example. But yeah, that that overall picture, in terms of diversifying to pay for itself is something that's probably not clearly apparent from the off. But it's the same with heritage properties. And they need to diversify to pay for themselves, the maintenance upkeep of, for instance, stately homes, leaves is very expensive. So as a result, you see diversification there, where you've come wedding venues or just event venues. The same with adventure play now, which is quite common. organisations like Catco, have attracted alternative demographics, for instance, to heritage sites, that wouldn't traditionally attract a family on a day out. But now they've got an adventure play bolt on, they are attracting that extra demographic and the increase in the footfall hugely, which has a big impact on revenue, which, obviously, to a degree to get reinvested into the asset as well, the heritage asset.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 20:58
You and I think, we're also looking for or certainly visitors are looking for unique experiences aren't they were by they have perhaps more of a in an exclusive experience to some of these attractions. So, you know, we've seen behind the scenes experiences VIP experiences, we're seeing a keeper experiences, you know, which are quite high ticket priced experiences, but are really unique. And, and fundamentally, you know, things that you wouldn't necessarily be able to do by just paying an entry fee. So I think that's quite an interesting bolt on. And I think that accommodation is also a really interesting one, because there are some good examples now of Safari parks putting in high end exclusive accommodation provision, right next to some of these enclosures, but we're talking about, you know, one or two, high quality tree houses, etc, where you literally wake up and you've got a giraffe outside your balcony. So we're not talking about things that are there to stress the animals, but we're talking about things that give the customer who wouldn't necessarily be able to perhaps go on a safari to Africa or wherever it would be a more unique experience. And it's, again, just a month, another another element of monetization. But as Richard said, the balance fundamentally has to be that the animals are the key to this, because as soon as you start to get an imbalance, you're going to generate bad reviews. And that is not going to help the business. The quality of the circulation and the quality of the interpretation and the quality of the facilities are just fundamental to these businesses. And the visitor wants to feel like they're not hemmed in just as much as the residents, ie the animals will, you know, don't want to feel like they're hemmed in. But you know, there's a lot of people who don't think that animals in captivity is right. But there are also people who say, Well look, quite a lot of these animals that are in captivity have bred in captivity, in actual fact, they're here to educate those people who are not fortunate enough to be able to see these animals in the wild. And, you know, it tugs at the heartstrings. I get that. But the the, as Richard said, these Safari parks and zoos now are focused or have a have a significant focus on education, and conservation. So they're to educate people. And they're to also do a lot for conservation. But a lot of that conservation work goes on behind the scenes and in different countries that you don't necessarily know about unless you dig a bit deeper into these establishments. But you know, they're they're fundamentally to try and educate us to look after the animals that we share this planet with.
Richard Morris 23:48
Absolutely, I think I was totally agree. I mean, animal collections are a window into the wider natural world, and education, and even interpretation in the design of enclosures is is a key part of offering the visitors that all round experience. I think the only comment I would say is that in terms of design of enclosures, the more immersive the design, the greater potential dwell time. And it's all very interrelated. The longer people dwell on site, the more they are around to spend. And it's the same with the lodges. It's always having that you're leveraging the animal in captivity as a visitor attraction to a degree, but it's also because it's vested in the interest of maintaining that species and the research and the conservation around it. So the overall challenge is making sure the two don't conflict and how you merge them together to get the progressive standards and essentially looking at an A saw a clearer perspective, the revenue that is needed just to maintain these sites and keep them operating at the standards they need to be.
Ginny Banham MRICS 25:09
Yes. And I suppose another consideration is, like you've mentioned that they are animals. So they do need looking after 24/7. So even if the zoo or safari park is an open pit, people still need to be on the ground on days, for example, like Christmas Day and New Year's Day, and their wages on top of that, that you having to pay for someone to be there. But actually, on those days, you probably will you won't be getting any income from the attraction or any of the additional bolt ons if you like, either.
Richard Morris MRICS 25:36
Absolutely. I mean, the pandemic was a classic example. You know, during the pandemic, you can't just switch off the lights, and lock the door, every animal keeper pretty much needs to stay on site. And the non core functions that support all that as well, there's quite a lot in terms that requirements. So you can imagine during the pandemic, a lot of collections were under great pressure, and more. So when they come out of that there would have been obviously a bottleneck, where people were desperate to get out. And I'm sure there was a period or an influx of visitors. But that will no doubt and has tapered off. So yeah, it's it. I think that was one time that really highlighted to me that the pressures and the tipping point, there's a lot of overhead with the site. So there's obviously a real need for that diversification. And again, you know, it's just trying to make sure when you do into these new new revenue streams, you're not compromising a core operation, which is the animals.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 26:38
Yeah, and I think ratios, right, you know, from all the evidence that I've seen from a lot of attractions that I've valued since COVID, the bounce back was really strong, but it was a Halcyon, period. And I think the operators knew that that it wouldn't necessarily be sustained at the sort of levels that we saw when we came out of out of the pandemic, when essentially, bulls were let out of the shed. And everybody came piling back to these attractions. We couldn't we couldn't travel abroad for that period of time. So they had a they had a really good 2022. But I don't think anybody is under any illusion that that that that was going to continue. So but as Richard said, you know, there are fundamentally these these attractions above and beyond most other leisure assets in the UK still had massive overheads in feeding and looking after the animals. And were it not for some philanthropic donations and sort of charitable status is of quite a lot of these organisations are dealt with still see them here.
Ginny Banham MRICS 27:45
Have you seen any scenario parks or zoos that were perhaps thinking about diversifying or hadn't even maybe considered diversifying before the pandemic had to make a like a drastic decision to diversify and maybe add additional things onto the business as a result of the pandemic?
Richard Baldwin MRICS 28:05
I haven't necessarily because I think in actual fact, before the pandemic, they were already thinking about it, they were thinking about how they were going to diversify, because every business is looking towards that and sustainability of profitability. And you can't, I think it is slightly naive, just to rely on the fact that you visited numbers are going to go up by 5% per annum. So the astute businesses that we were looking at, were already there was already a sort of wave of attractions, adding these extras on and particularly accommodation, and we were seeing not even in animal based attractions, we were seeing a lot of theme parks etc. and other attractions, adding accommodation, because that that fundamentally was is a good, sustainable source of income. And as Richard alluded to, we're seeing quite a lot of attractions adding play into their mix, before the pandemic. And perhaps what the pandemic has illustrated is that it is fundamentally important to not sit on your hands for any of these, you've got to, you've got to try and persuade people to come back to your attraction. And to do that, you've got to make that attraction change. And you've got to add new things and you've got to keep it fresh, and you've got to make sure that, you know, you're gonna pull that person back to it. Because it's repeat visitation that is also fundamentally important. That's how I think about that.
Richard Morris MRICS 29:30
Yeah, I would totally agree, Richard. There's lots of dynamics to how you bolt on to an animal collection or a zoo or Safari, for instance, the example I use before where you can add an adventure play to a heritage site and draw in a different demographic numbers probably doesn't work as much with a safari park, you're already drawing in families, so it's a bit of a bolt on, but if you integrate that, sympathetically with an inc closure, for instance, I was looking at creating a red squirrel enclosure within an existing woodland, which to a degree was going to integrate adventure play. So where there was slides or any aspects that were going to get really busy or stressful that was well away from the body of the enclosure aspect, and it was on the periphery, but the high level walkways over the valley, where you would have red squirrels, essentially, walking alongside you on high level whiteboard. Those things do offer that extra enticement for new visitors. And it's like adding new things all the time, I think you do you have a high degree of collections that obviously have a lot of members memberships as well. So it probably doesn't, it gives them a stable income. But it's not like big generating income. So new visitors and repeat visitors is important. And you see some of the collections now, some of that big that potentially almost a two day attraction. And that's where the accommodation element can come into it as well. So there's lots of sort of factors you need to consider when it comes to bolting on new additions in terms of first and foremost, is it going to crossover with the core offering animal welfare and any other conservation elements, but then secondarily, is it going to draw in more numbers, more footfall? Now, if it does draw more footfall? Obviously, the primary income is off the gate. But then once you do that, you need to upgrade your infrastructure, you need more parking. So then is the ways to do this, where for instance, with a safari park, Safari parks are predominantly a drive around attraction. But a lot of Safari parks also have what you could say is the fox Safari now, now it's not as dense in terms of animal enclosures. It's using celery properties on buildings, and outlets, food outlets, or whatnot. But there's an element that if they both evolve the reserve, and you can evolve the foot Safari, you potentially got a two day attraction there where people can come and do the walk around one day, and then you can come up and do the reserve. And the Reserve itself, you can integrate things along the reserve as well, stopover points. But again, there's lots of limitations in terms of infrastructure, especially building services, infrastructure, but there's lots of potential as well, and I think so far is sort of less touched in terms of the built environment, and the development, and they have that greater expanse of land to progress and develop on but like I say, it needs a lot of fire, and it's quite a holistic picture that you need to pull together to make to make it work.
Ginny Banham MRICS 32:40
Okay, so we've touched on safari parks, and zoos, and both of your involvement in both valuing and surveying, zoos and Safari parks. Are there any of that niche assets that you've been involved with, and could maybe talk a little bit further about?
Richard Baldwin MRICS 32:56
I think, you know, you sometimes have bad days at work, but fundamentally, I've got a look at mine and think Gordon Bennett is I have such a strange array of properties that I've dealt with over the years. So I've just been fortunate to fall into this sort of leisure surveying niche for my entire career and I've dealt with numerous assets and lists pretty extensive. I'm probably fundamentally, probably one of the most experienced peer specialists in the UK Believe it or not, I think there's 50 operational peers in the UK and I think I've advised on about 40 of them so I've got quite an affiliation with them and I quite enjoy my trips to the seaside you know, the Victorians were remarkable when they just you know trying to build appear now would just be prohibitive in terms of cost, although there are one or two that have been rebuilt but yeah, they they love the seaside Victorians have been up mountain railways notre Mountain Railway, they're one of my clients. That's a great asset another Victorian piece of engineering. I've been through extensive underground caverns and show caves I've acted for quite a few of those I've sold lands and and John O'Groats. I've written quite a few rollercoasters around theme parks and attractions in the UK have done zip wires over quarries. And latterly, I've been involved with surfing lagoons, so there's only three surfing lagoons in the UK. One of them was in Snowdonia, unfortunately, it's gone into administration, the second one down in Bristol, which is called wave and then there's a new one being built in Scotland, which is called the last shore surf resort, and I've been involved with that valuation perspective. So they're they're pretty interesting assets. And then the last sort of major attraction that I've been involved with is Eden north. So that is the Eden Project building a sort of secondary site, smaller sort of sister site in morcom. And I was involved with a recent evaluation on that as part of a levelling up funding application. And I think, I mean, once it's completed, it's it's hope that's going to be a Major attracted to the northwest and off the back of the reputation from its sort of parent attraction down in Cornwall. So that was a really interesting project because it's probably one of the bigger attractions to be built from scratch anywhere in the UK or will be. Yeah, so quite quite a weird, eclectic mix of attractions. Yeah, in the UK primarily.
Ginny Banham MRICS 35:25
Thanks, Richard, have have you been involved in any niche assets? Richard, in terms of like a Building Surveying perspective?
Richard Morris 35:32
Well, I would say that the work in the zoo sector, to be honest, is the most niche area I've worked in, but I've worked in pretty much every every sector, whether it's looking at properties in hospitality, rail, defence, heritage, you know, I always when people ask me what we do as a surveyors, as building surveyors, specifically, you can sort of talk all day about all the different things we do all the different assets that we look at, whether it's looking at existing things, or whether it's designing new things, but the one sort of assets that I from a surveying perspective, that always stand out, in my mind, probably things that are quite boring to the average person. But I remember one of the first surveys I ever did when I joined a consultancies a college graduate, was we went to did a survey of one customer hospital. Like customer hospital was, I think it was originally called the Lancaster County lunatic asylum. And then it went on to be called the Lancaster County Mental Hospital. But that was 18 hundred's property sites, the ad pretty much every defect you would want as a build surveyor to learn about. And that was sort of my first encounter with things like dry rock, so a bit geeky there, but it was, those type of things stand out in mind, because that was early on in my career, those are the type of things that I wanted to join the profession for are to get out and about and explore existing buildings and understand about all the different types of building pathology and see in real life, all the things that you sort of studied for academically, but to sort of be on the ground and investigate those and then come up with remedial and manage the projects to to mitigate them all the way over to Commission's where I've worked, looking at aeroplane hangers, for instance, Airbus over in Brighton, you know, where they were manufacturing the wings for the A 380 Just being in that environment, it's quite interesting, to be honest, that they're only, you know, the portal frame sheds, essentially. But again, you know, they're just learning about the construction of these buildings and the sheer scale of them, things like wind load and and the impact that has on buildings of that scale, and how they operate. But one thing that I find that sort of really interesting from a surveying perspective, and this is how I sort of become more heavily involved in design work, is that inherently obviously a surveyors Building Surveyors were looking at existing assets, existing buildings, from multiple sectors, different uses, and you get a real appreciation of where things are fell short in terms of design, and our buildings don't potentially function as they should do for the user requirement. So then, when you do go into working on design for new buildings or new structures, you tend to have an inherent sort of understanding and appreciation for the functional design and the user requirements. And I think that is one thing that sort of stood out in my career, being involved in multidisciplinary projects where you wouldn't typically I shouldn't say, if you're new to the profession, you probably want to expect a surveyor to sort of be leading in those types of multidisciplinary design scheme so to speak.
Richard Baldwin MRICS 39:03
It's funny though, Richard, how you alluded to one of your first jobs, I was thinking, How was one of my first jobs and I suddenly thought, how could I have not remembered that? So when I got my first job, and I was doing my apprenticeship with a company called Edward Simmons, hotels and leisure, I went into their golf and stadium department as a graduate, believe it or not, and my first job was on a golf course in South London, and it was a golf course it was under construction at the time, so it hadn't opened. And we were doing some weekly surveys of this course to check that the contractor was doing the work that the bank were drawing down from, and I was walking around this golf course. And I just thought this is the app this is brilliant. How have I managed to do that have I managed to get a job looking at golf courses when I you know, my course at university was all to do with offices, industrial etc. And here I am walking around this golf course and getting paid for doing it and it's sunny and or not. And then I went back into the office, and I vividly remember the director or the partner saying, What are you doing tomorrow? I said, I'm writing up this report, he said, No, you're not, we've got to go and look at Wembley Arena. And I thought, if this is how the next 30 years are gonna go, I shouldn't get too glum about surveying. No. And that's fundamentally how it's gone.
Richard Morris MRICS 40:25
Yeah, that is brilliant. Like, say, when I went into building surveying, as a young graduate, I shouldn't say before I even chose my degree, you know, like most teenagers around that age, you, you're often just looking for something that's going to pay well, and be easy. But I found when when she looked into survey, it was quite a diverse profession. And one of the things that actually drove me to originally to say, was the fact that you just get out the office, I didn't want to be sat in an office, I think I wanted to be out and about and, you know, getting some fresh air and just just interacting with other people, and just seeing how these buildings are built, essentially. But I never, I never realise how diverse of a profession, just I mean, buildings of a very diverse, but also all the other civilian professions. It's, I don't know any area of any industry that we don't really touch on. So that's one thing, but I would always sort of encourage people who are considering looking into this as a profession, or even going into the property sector, to you know, reach out to the RICS and learn more about, you know, what is essentially a very rewarding and interesting and dynamic profession.
Ginny Banham MRICS 41:42
Yeah, and it's the physicality of it as well, isn't it, it's been able to tangibly touch something that you, you know, advising on. And from my perspective, that's what I really like about it. And I also like the fact that I can, in part, I think it's the veins of root, it's a common sense, it requires an application of common sense to problem solving, and to figuring stuff out and, and advising. And that's what I really like about this profession as well.
Richard Morris 42:09
Yeah, absolutely. I'm the same. I mean, I always say there's two sort of key aspects. To being a surveyor, obviously, you've got your technical side of things, which can be quite scientific or your understanding of law and regulations. So there's that very sort of academic side of things. But then there's the soft side, you know, the interface with clients and contractors, and that environment is really appealing to me, you know, I like to do that I like to learn new things, I like to see new things I like to problem solve. But I also like to work with people from a diverse array. So I think having both of those just and being in and out the office, it just breaks the day or you never really have the same day. Well, I certainly don't. And that's one of the reasons I like to stay quite broad base and then touch on a lot of the different key areas that are building surveyors generally do.
Ginny Banham MRICS 43:06
Yeah. And I think that's one of the things about surveying, there are. So I think, well from us three here, we all do different jobs. And we're all still surveyors and members of the RICS. And I think that's probably a key message for a lot of people is that there's so many different avenues that you can go down even from doing the same degree. And lots of people enjoy the various roles, whether it be commercial rural infrastructure, building surveyors. There's lots of different avenues that the, I suppose people coming into the industry can go down. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you both Richards for joining us today. I think it's been a really insightful podcast, and hopefully enjoyable for all of the listeners. So thank you very much. That's all from us for this episode. Thank you for listening to the RICS podcast. How should we develop this conversation further? Let us know your thoughts in social media, or directly via the form on the rics.org podcast page. Follow us on your podcast app, or check out our page on rcs.org to stay up to date with all the latest episodes from the RICS.