Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

Joe Filisko interview

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Joe Filisko has made the study of the harmonica his lifelong passion. His detailed knowledge of early recordings has helped him become the pre-eminent pre-war harmonica player of our time.
He built his knowledge of the harmonica from the inside out, producing revered custom harmonicas still used by some of the big names in harmonica today.
Joe has been playing in his duo with Eric Noden since 2003, and is also a renowned harmonica tutor, both online and in workshops around the world.
Joe displays his diverse harmonica skills on his latest album, 'Destination Unknown'.

Select the Chapter Markers tab above to select different sections of the podcast (website version only).

Joe's website:
http://www.filiskostore.com/

Some of the YouTube clips mentioned:
Joe at the NHL Festival in 2006:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw95vo82y9o
Joe's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9mW8r1VlyUTTTeNiZVeJsQ
When The Saints tutorials on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuqFWAdNrbM

My harmonica transcription site:
http://www.harptranscripts.co.uk/

Dave Barrett's tuition site:
https://bluesharmonica.com/home

Richard Sleigh's harmonica customisation site:
https://hotrodharmonicas.com/


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, Neil Warren here again and welcome to another episode of the Happy Hour Harmonica podcast with more interviews with some of the finest harmonica players around today. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and also check out the Spotify playlist where some of the tracks discussed during the interviews can be heard. Quick word from my sponsor now, the Lone Wolf Blues Company, makers of effects pedals, microphones and more, designed for harmonica. Remember, when you want control over your tone, you want Lone Wolf. Joe Felisco has made the study of the harmonica his lifelong passion. His detailed knowledge of early recordings has helped him become the pre-eminent, pre-war harmonica player of our time. He built his knowledge of the harmonica from the inside out, producing revered custom harmonicas still used by some of the big names in harmonica today. Joe has been playing in his duo with Eric Noden since 2003, and is also a renowned harmonica tutor, both online and in workshops around the world. Joe displays his diverse harmonica skills on his latest album, Destination Unknown.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello

SPEAKER_01:

Joe Flisco and welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey Neil, delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

Starting off, I was surprised to read that you were born in Germany, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00:

That is correct. I was born there. just outside of the army base in Gießen, Germany. And I was only a few months old when my parents came back here to the US. But my mother was a German citizen until 15 years ago. She became a US citizen.

SPEAKER_01:

So you grew up around Chicago. So you live in Joliet now, is that right?

SPEAKER_00:

That is correct. Joliet, Illinois, about... An hour drive south of Chicago.

SPEAKER_01:

And Joliet is famous in the blues world for the prison where Jake and the Blues Brothers was incarcerated.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it does have a little bit of a blues vibe about it. So there's such a tremendous access to so much stuff being here in Chicago. Most Definitely growing up on the outskirts of Chicago has benefited me in countless ways.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, as such, you didn't really draw your inspiration to play the harmonica from Chicago.

SPEAKER_00:

Only indirectly. Most of my main initial inspiration came from early recordings. And it was later on that I started to develop... personal relationships with players that had roots in Chicago. And those would be like Corky Siegel in that time period in the late 80s and early 90s. Peter Mad Cat Ruth very frequently was coming to Chicago. I got to know Charlie Musselwhite from very early on. And although not really what I would consider to be a blues player. I've had a relationship with Howard Levy for 30 some years.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you remember what age you were when you started playing the harmonica?

SPEAKER_00:

I experimented with the harmonica as a young'un. There was always a few harmonicas around. My mother will say that in her mind, I was her German boy and she wanted me to play the harmonica. So they were always available. I can't say that I really knew what to do with it until I was in college and became aware of the concept of second position cross harp. the concept that it was the small 10-hole diatonic harmonica that was most frequently heard in blues, and that if anyone was to pursue playing blues on the harmonica, they need to be familiar with the bending that took place on it. So really, it was probably the late 1980s that I really picked it up and found that i could no longer put it down do

SPEAKER_01:

you remember what you're at that stage when you started playing more seriously what what harmonica you started playing on

SPEAKER_00:

um one of the first ones that i had that i actually spent time with was the 12 hole marine band 364 that was low tuned i really spent uh quite a bit of time fooling with that playing with that and then it was I don't remember what happened, but then I realized, oh, these blues players, they're really not seldom playing this low one. They're playing this one that's an octave higher. That was sort of quite a revelation to me. I believe that when I decided I wanted to really pursue playing blues, I went to the local record store of And I picked up The Best of Little Walter and The Soul of the Blues harmonica by Shakey Horton.

SPEAKER_02:

Now if you'd be my baby

SPEAKER_01:

Those big marine bands with the 12 holes, I've got one of those. And they were the ones which Sonny Boy used on a few of his recordings, such as, I think, Bye Bye Bird.

SPEAKER_00:

That's correct.

SPEAKER_01:

Little Walter and Big Walter, those first two albums you picked up, any particular song that you remember really grabbed you?

SPEAKER_00:

Honestly, Neil, I listened to that stuff and I was mostly baffled as to how a harmonica could produce that stuff. And having... such a deficit of reasonably good information. I think I mostly just marveled at them. I probably could relate to the acoustic sound of what was on the Walter Horton, shaky Horton record more. I don't, the, the amplified harmonica that little Walter had. I think it was just mind blowing to me. I just, I was like looking at some alien creature that that kind of sound could be produced on the harmonica. And then what was probably a more significant point for me was when I stumbled upon the Yazoo record harmonica blues of the 1920s and 30s. Of course, in many ways, that was just as perplexing, but I found that imitating, trying to understand the chordal, the rhythmic chordal playing of the train imitation and stuff on it. I think that that was a little bit easier for me to grasp rather than what I like to say, the multi-layered, multi-dimensional approach to the playing that little Walter had

SPEAKER_01:

You're well known for being one of the preeminent pre-war harmonica players around today. Being drawn to those earlier 1920s, 1930s recordings, clearly that's what grabbed you early on.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think it's very important that it's understood. Anything that was played on the harmonica captivated me. I found that listening to D. Ford Bailey do Davidson County Blues... Or listening to Chuck Darling do the harmonica rag. It made a little bit more sense to me. I found that I had a clearer entryway into trying to play that stuff. Little did I know how complex it was also. It is just as difficult and multi-layered, but I felt like I had a bit more of an invitation into that stuff. I also spent time at the library checking out any record that I could get my hands on that seemed to have harmonica in it. And I happened upon the record, The Great Harmonica Players, I think. On that document record, there was the cuts, Maccabee's Railroad Piece and Lost Boy Blues by Palmer Maccabee. And both of those cuts deeply intrigued me. I really felt like, wow, this is absolutely amazing playing. I... I think more than anything, it was listening to that stuff, especially the Lost Boy Blues. That I felt like helped me to understand the role and the purpose of the tongue blocking technique when playing the harmonica, because it was really so clear and so blatant how he was playing a melody out of the right corner of his mouth and creating this chordal rhythmic accompaniment out of the left side of his mouth. Those were very, very, very influential tunes for me to be picking apart.

SPEAKER_01:

You're well known particularly for doing a great train on the harmonica. Again, this early style of harmonica and obviously the imitation of trains is a key part of that. What is it about the train, you know, that thing works so well on the harmonica?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it is definitely quite a magical, serendipitous thing. Something as enormous as a train could be recreated on something as small and unassuming as a diatonic harmonica. But it's just a happenstance of the way that it's tuned that it works. It is... really striking to people to be able to pull that out and recreate that and see the stunned look on their faces that something as small as a harmonica could do that. So I really just found that that was a really captivating thing and invested considerable time earlier on in my playing trying to imitate and recreate many of these harmonica train imitations. in one regard, playing the train on the harmonica in a simple manner is maybe one of the very easiest things that you could possibly do for anybody. When I teach, the harmonica train imitation is always the starting point for introducing the diatonic harmonica to beginners, because as long as they can breathe, they can play the harmonica train imitation.

SPEAKER_01:

And Defa Bale, you mentioned there. So I understand you were, you played a piece when Defa Bale was added to the Blues Hall of Fame.

SPEAKER_00:

That was actually the Country Music Hall of Fame. And I was invited and it was a tremendous honor to play his Fox Chase in front of his remaining family and all these legends in country music. It was fantastic. Probably one of the most nervous moments that I've ever had in my life.

SPEAKER_01:

Solo piece for you then as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, solo unaccompanied harmonica.

SPEAKER_01:

Great and great that, you know, as you say, an early harmonica player got that recognition as well. On the recordings of these early harmonica players, have you found more recordings during your research? Because the ones that I have is, you know, maybe two or three at the most.

SPEAKER_00:

I believe that... Everything or nearly everything that was recorded early on has been released on the Document Records label. Country music is a little different. So there are some recordings, for example, of one of D. Ford Bailey's contemporaries by the name of Kyle Wooten, which it's a little trickier to track down all of his, I think it's eight recordings that he did.

SPEAKER_01:

Finishing off on the topic of your in-depth knowledge of the history then, have you any plans to do any more with this?

SPEAKER_00:

I think what I'm doing currently is distilling all the work that I've done listening and transcribing and basically creating study songs that help give people an inroads to developing technique and understanding what takes place, whether it be Chicago blues or Cajun music or old-time music in the style of Dee Ford Bailey or Sonny Terry. I'm just trying to create material for players to proceed wisely to develop the right sound. I remember when I sat down and really decided to listen very carefully to that harmonica blues of the 20s and 30s. And I listened to the whole thing, asking the question in my head the whole time, is this player tongue blocking or is this player using the pursing puckering technique to get this? I mean, I've really been asked on that question. question and listening with a very fine-tuned discerning ear trying to figure out what is needed in order to play these sounds and these styles and it's it's a really important question because if somebody their relationship with the harmonica is from a clean single-note puckering approach, they are going to have a devil of a time trying to play any songs by Dee Ford Bailey or Kyle Wooten or Big Walter or Sonny Boy Williamson, for that matter. So I'm really trying to figure out how to point people in the right direction from the very, very beginning. I

SPEAKER_01:

think you're leaving a great... You know, a great body of work, you know, lots of your YouTube videos, where you are showing those, and that's a great way to keep those sounds alive and how those techniques that those guys used. Did they have very different techniques? Do you see big differences in the way that Deeford Bailey played, say, to Little Walter or Sonny Boy?

SPEAKER_00:

They all, those players that you mentioned, they all had tremendous varied technique. What I mean by that is different ways that they used their tongue. In a player like the Chicago players, they tended to have more of an explosive, percussive attack in their playing, the way that they use the tongue blocking to make that leap out, make that jump out. That doesn't tend to be a stylistic thing that you would get when you listen carefully to somebody like Dee Ford Bailey. His playing is fantastic. much more subtle. But then again, he was a solo, unaccompanied player, so he didn't really necessarily need to fight with a band to be heard. I've

SPEAKER_01:

got a lot of harmonica transcriptions myself, and I'm interested in what you're saying there about how you unraveled the techniques they were playing.

SPEAKER_00:

It's really mostly just listening and listening and listening. I was really taken by the interview you did with Paul Lamb Listening to him talk about the time that he spent really trying to understand the sound, the depth of sound, listening to Sonny Terry, it's really the same thing. And trying to develop a mental picture of what's going on and then imitating that. Most people would be really shocked to see the hundreds of detailed transcriptions that I have predominantly of the Chicago-style players, the little Walter, big Walter, you know, Rice Miller. And when you really listen very carefully with, like, if your ear was a microscope, you really hear the tongue-blocking layers and tongue-blocking subtleties that are in those players' That's a really important part of understanding what somebody like Big Walter or Rice Miller was doing when they're in there playing. Understanding how tricky they were about using chords.

SPEAKER_01:

These transcriptions you've written, are they all written on paper?

SPEAKER_00:

They are. So

SPEAKER_01:

I've done a website called hearttranscripts.co.uk where I've written... a number of transcriptions into the program Transcribe, which you can only go so far. I mean, as you'll know, doing lots of transcriptions, it's very hard kind of writing down the subtleties. How do you describe all these very subtle noises that are made on the harmonica? Does that obviously make the way that you so predominantly learn the harmonica is, you know, is obviously listening to other players, you know, working out what they did, obviously in very close detail. Would you say, like many harmonica players, that's the way you've learned?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, by all really detailed listening, recording myself, listening to myself, listening to the recording, just going back and forth. I would say that may appear to be a tremendous benefit to have been able to sit down and take a lesson with somebody like Big Walter. But I also know many people that have talked with Big Walter about how he plays And it is my opinion that he has given people very confusing information. I think that he really, him and other players have not always been truthful about answering questions, how they do things. And there's also this aspect that I think a lot of players like that don't know how to put into words what it is they're doing. If you ask them about what tongue blocking is, I'm not really sure that it means the same thing to a player like that that's been doing it intuitively his whole life as it would mean to a player like me. I think you can also be really confused by taking the literal words from players like that.

SPEAKER_01:

I first saw you play in the NHL Festival in Bristol in 2006. It was a fantastic performance. I'll put a few, one or two of the YouTube links up onto the description for the podcast so people can check that out. And I think a lot of it was down to what you've already talked about, is that ability playing solo, you know, with all the chordal accompaniment yourself and multi-layered kind of textures to the rhythms. I'm

SPEAKER_00:

happy to hear that. I'm definitely happy to

SPEAKER_01:

hear that. So now you're mainly playing a duo with Eric Nolden, who I think you've been playing with since 2003.

SPEAKER_00:

Correct.

SPEAKER_01:

So you think you've got four albums out now with Eric?

SPEAKER_00:

There might be more. I haven't really counted them all. We had the live album where we did Standards, and then our first record of all originals was Icy Special, and then we had Missed Train, and then On the Move. We released at the same time with a band record. It came out as the Eric Nodin Band, although there's harmonica on all the cuts, and I did write one of the songs on it. That was called Solid Ground.

UNKNOWN:

Solid Ground

SPEAKER_00:

and then our most recent duo record which we actually recorded ourselves with one stereo mic Destination Unknown

SPEAKER_01:

The I See Special album, which I enjoy a lot. Some great songs on there as well. Are there a few songs on there that are self-written, such as Angry Woman, I'm Thinking, and No One Gets Out of Here Alive?

SPEAKER_02:

Were

SPEAKER_01:

there songs that you wrote yourself? That's correct. Great, great lyrics to those. And then one with the band. Is that you playing amplified with the band in that Eric Norden band one?

SPEAKER_00:

I think there's more amplified than acoustic, but there are a few cuts where I'm blowing acoustic harp.

SPEAKER_01:

So you're playing mainly in a duo. You're favoring the duo setup, I take it, to put your acoustic playing in its best light, and that's what you like to do.

SPEAKER_00:

It's hard to say why. I think Eric and I, we really have... Tremendous chemistry together as a duo, and it's easy to travel as a duo. When we play local, maybe the last two or three years, believe it or not, we have a bunch of fairly regular kind of restaurant gigs that we do. And we actually have been using very often a drummer, of which that would be Kenny BDI Smith. And he really... upgrades uh what it is we're doing and we did play as a trio at the chicago blues festival just a few years back but i don't think we are anticipating going on the road and doing any gigs with kenny smith

SPEAKER_01:

do you do much work as a sideman with other with other bands

SPEAKER_00:

i don't i really i find that uh keeping my energy focused on the duo that I'm doing with Eric. I really feel like that's the best thing for me to do. And

SPEAKER_01:

with Eric, with Eric Nodin, you've done a few live online concerts before the time of COVID-19. So you're obviously ahead of the game there. Are you able to do some planning to do any more? Or I don't know if you're able to meet up with Eric at this point.

SPEAKER_00:

We're trying to figure that out, Neil. We did... We had this thing where roughly every once a month, we would do this online concert through this platform called Concert Window. But regrettably, that site closed. So we're definitely trying to reinvent how we go about doing online stuff. We are trying to figure something out, trying to get our head around this new technology and how we can best use it to serve our creative musical purposes.

SPEAKER_01:

You've been successful with Eric. You toured around, certainly over to Europe and obviously playing in the Chicago Blues Festival, as you say there. Have you any advice for anybody who's coming up with their own band or duo about how to succeed, how to get gigs, how to get ahead?

SPEAKER_00:

Playing as a duo is the least popular thing that you could ever pursue. You'd be better off trying to pursue a gig playing as a solo artist than as a duo. I don't say this really with any bitterness. I actually say it with a sense of humor. The reason for that is that venues tend to have their concert series figured out for either solo acts or bands. When they're confronted with a duo, this is a They don't want to pay a duo what they have budgeted to pay a band, and we don't want to play for what they have budgeted for paying a solo act. So a duo is pretty tricky to deal with in many venues. For me... I do immensely love playing in the duo because it gives me the absolute maximum room to play as much as I want. To my ears, a lot of people pursue playing a duo mainly from a Chicago blues standpoint. That always leaves me a little bit discouraged because there really isn't a precedent for a Chicago blues duo. The Chicago blues genre music is predominantly a band band. configuration, not a duo configuration. So the role of the harmonica doesn't quite fit if you take it out of a Chicago blues configuration and try to insert it into a duo. Generally, what Eric and I do is mimic many of the great duo players, the duos of the past, and those would be Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee, the duo stuff that John Lee Williamson did maybe with Big Bill Brunzi or did with Big Joe Williams, the duo work that Johnny Woods did with Fred McDowell. Is, in my opinion, some of the most overlooked moments uh, duo work that there is. And plus also some of the stuff from the old timey genre of music. There's, we're really trying to capture a lot of flavors of what a duo can do, but the role of the harmonica is quite difficult because of the rhythmical demands and, uh, playing rhythmically throughout the whole entire song can be quite the challenge. I guess all that being said, what the harmonica does in a duo is really different most of the time than what the harmonica does in a Chicago blues band.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that. I mean, I... I prefer the dual format as well, like you said, because it gives you that space. You've got more variability. And as much as anything, you're not competing with an electric guitar and loud drums and bass. Are you never tempted to go out more solo then, given the fact that I was saying earlier on your solo concert in Bristol in 2006 was tremendous? Do you obviously like to play with Eric?

SPEAKER_00:

It is so rewarding to play with Eric. There's something about the sound of harmonica and guitar blended together that is magical. I just don't think there's a big audience for unaccompanied solo harmonica playing. The biggest problem, the biggest challenge is that if I... go to sing, then the rhythm section suddenly disappears unless I'm stomping my foot and snapping my fingers. That's one of the real drawbacks about pursuing something as a solo, unaccompanied harmonica act, although I have entertained the idea from time to time.

SPEAKER_01:

famous for becoming a harmonica customizer. You started customizing harmonicas, and that sort of led you to know some of the great players around America at the time, and that sort of opened some doors for you. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00:

That is exactly right, most certainly. And I definitely have used that and exploited it anytime I have questions about advanced harmonica things or techniques. If I know somebody who may have some real good insight on that. I do not hesitate to check in with them about that.

SPEAKER_01:

You were a machinist, were you, before you, at that stage, when you started tinkering with harmonicas?

SPEAKER_00:

I am trained as a machinist, and I also have artisan in my blood. I am very good with my hands at building, fixing, crafting, and creating things.

SPEAKER_01:

Clearly, at this point, you loved the harmonica, yeah. So it was just a case of marrying your job at the time with your passion for harmonica to make the harmonica work better.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, this is exactly right.

SPEAKER_01:

And so then you got to know some of the big names in America, and you started customizing the harmonicas for them. Kim Wilson, Jerry Portnoy. You know, that opened some doors for you, didn't it? Or is it just to get your relationship with them that you could start picking their brains?

SPEAKER_00:

All of the above, really. I would have to say... I have to go back and remind folks that when I started playing, there was such an amazing deficit of good information. There had only been a couple of books that were written, and some of them were just full of wrong information about how to play the harmonica. At least having a relationship with someone that was really, really, really clearly good at playing It increased the possibility that I would be able to understand how to go about being a better player myself. There is definitely a tremendous value in sitting five feet away from somebody who's very skilled as a player. and realizing, oh, that sound is not a recording trick. It's not a special harmonica. It actually can be recreated right there in front of your face on a regular old harmonica. So I've always been trying to get to a deeper understanding of how the harmonica is played and how the harmonica works, always.

SPEAKER_01:

The theme of these podcast conversations is definitely going along the line of when I grew up, we didn't have all these resources, as you just said, and now there's endless resources with the internet. I'm almost torn to think, well, is it a good thing having all those resources? Because in a way, you have too many resources that maybe you don't focus on things in the same way. I guess it's how you use it, but any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00:

There's no substitute to going back to the classic recordings and listening and trying to transcribe. So for me, I couldn't take lessons from somebody that was really doing it the way that I wanted. But I did have many players tell me, oh, you know, you really want to get to the bottom of that. You know, you got to be listening to Little Walter. You got to be listening to Rice Miller. You got to listen to Big Walter. And so at least I knew what was the the best stuff that was ever recorded. And I did the homework really getting to the bottom of it and really trying to have an understanding of it. Nowadays, folks can pay a small amount of money a month and have total access to all the videos and all the information that are on Dave Barrett's site, bluesharmonica.com, which I highly recommend. Another thing I see is there is an overwhelming amount of information available for free if you surf the YouTube channel about how to play the harmonica. And a staggering amount of it is also incorrect or is telling you things that are only half-truths. So people do have they have access to an overwhelming amount of opinions from people. And so it's really easy to become very, very confused as to what approach do I do? How do I go about doing this when all these people are saying all these different things?

SPEAKER_01:

Going back briefly to your, your custom harmonicas, you kind of famously made these tremendous custom harmonicas, which now you have a team of three guys who, making those they're still available aren't they made from those guys the

SPEAKER_00:

honer affiliated customizer program i would encourage anybody that really wants to have access to one of the best harmonicas made to really check out any of those guys. There's more than three on that Hohner affiliated site. These guys have really gone through the test. They have established solid, reputable businesses on their own, and they really are committed to taking the harmonica and making it as high performance as it can be made.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't offer your own custom harmonicas yourself

SPEAKER_00:

anymore. I am not taking on any new work. I'm still committed to taking care of the old customers that I've been doing business with for years. And it's better for me to take care of them than it is for me to spread myself too thin.

SPEAKER_01:

And I know you encourage people, maybe some people listening, to certainly learn the basics yourself, how to tune, how to emboss and gap the harmonica. These are things I do myself, and I definitely see really improving harmonica by doing a few simple things yourself, can't you?

SPEAKER_00:

The simplest thing, I think, is probably the tuning of it. And I always try to encourage people to not be too shy about that kind of thing. You can certainly get a little bit more life out of a harmonica and better quality music out of a harmonica if you know how to adjust the tuning. So I do encourage folks to not be too timid about that. I

SPEAKER_01:

know you like to tune your chords very specifically, don't you, to get the chords sounding just as you like them?

SPEAKER_00:

I do. This is very true. I love the triad, the chord triad to be as perfectly in tune as possible. And it only makes sense if you listen to my playing, you hear lots of chords in it generally. And of course, that also... holds true about the octaves and intervals the the octaves that are available on the diatonic harmonica have to be in tune uh otherwise uh you know i'll drive myself crazy

SPEAKER_01:

do you follow any of the tuning uh i forget the exact names is it just intonation and things is there any particular one that you you follow

SPEAKER_00:

The one that I use, I thought it was called 19 Limit Just Intonation. I think that's what the technical name is. Richard Slay has information available about how to do basic work on your harmonica, and I believe that his website is hotrodharmonicas.com.

SPEAKER_01:

You won Spa Player of the Year in 2001. How was that? Was there a ceremony and all those good things?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it was just a little announcement. You know, they had me come up and congratulated me. And it was at the end of the big event, the big convention that they have once a year on the Saturday night. So I'm very grateful for that honor.

SPEAKER_01:

Great. Yeah. So was there any particular reason that year you won it?

SPEAKER_00:

The first year that I went to a spa event was 1990, and I was just so flabbergasted and overwhelmed with excitement that I was having contact and exposure to all these immensely, immensely talented and enthusiastic people. And this included the older generation of players, the Harmonic Cats generation of players. And it was so life-changing for me that I really started to get involved deeper and deeper myself in trying to volunteer and try to put things together to make the event as memorable for other people as I possibly could. And I guess I have to believe that they recognized that in me and decided to pay me that honor.

SPEAKER_01:

We talked about your playing style. It's very strong acoustically, lots of chordal, full sound, rhythmical. In some of the solo pieces I've seen you doing, you do some good tribute sort of songs, such as the Big Waltz. And Sonny Terry, we touched on Sonny Terry earlier on a little bit. We talked to Paul Lamb in the first one. Paul Lamb is a fantastic exponent of the Sonny Terry style. And like you said, he spent many years perfecting that and he's really got it down great. But yourself, I think you're probably up there with Paul on the Sonny Terry approach. Any words about how to get that sound, the Sonny Terry style?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. I'm very honored that you would put me up there with Paul. I think that he really has a spooky connection to the sound and tone and approach of Sonny Terry. Some tips that I could give people about Sonny Terry is, number one, that he did not use tongue blocking in a conventional way. He is what I would call Considered to be a narrow tongue blocker that he used rather a pointy tongue. This is really made clear when you listen to Sonny Terry do his shake technique. This real... moving his tongue laterally, quickly side to side. If your tongue is touching the harmonica, then you're tongue blocking. That would be an example of Sonny Terry tongue blocking. But you don't hear octave intervals in Sonny Terry's playing. This is one thing that you hear nearly in all other players, but not in Sonny Terry. He also used tone very often. In a very demanding way, he could play really up in the front of his mouth and create this very sharp piercing tone. I believe that that is a byproduct of Sonny Terry going back to having to play on the streets and having to be heard over a crowd. Having a deep, warm, resonant, round tone is not going to do a player any good if nobody can hear them in an acoustic setting. Sonny Terry also was unbelievably masterful at what I think of as playing with dirt. Nowadays, people greatly simplify it and say that a player is using double stops, playing two notes at once. I hear Sonny Terry as being the player that blurred the line between a clean single note and a chord. He would play all these little variations of a clean single note with 5% of the next adjacent hole or 25% or 50% or 75%. of the next adjacent hole. He was really masterful at that aspect in his playing. And this is one of the things that makes him so difficult to comprehend because we collectively as a culture try to comprehend things mainly based off of like a piano. And you can't play a split key on a piano like how you can play split notes on the harmonica. So like a rhythm played like this. there's like this mixture of clean notes, a variety of dirty notes and chord playing in it that I hear and Sonny Terry's playing. And it's very difficult to notate in normal, typical terms. And I think maybe last that the percussive technique that Sonny Terry had in Chicago blues, you'd hear this kind of, well, you don't, really hear Sonny Terry play in that sort of way. It's there, but it's very different. It's a lot more subtle in there and a much more dirty quality to it when you listen to how he uses it in his playing. But it's very, very unlike the typical Chicago blues players. So those are a few little... insights into sunny terry sometimes it's better to think of what he didn't do i

SPEAKER_01:

wanted to ask you about amazing grace i know that i know that's another song close to your heart and another song which has got some magical quality on the harmonica so amazing grace you did you played a version of it in that concert in bristol in 2006 so

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_01:

you play it in five keys on the G harmonic, and that's something that I've learned myself from your recording. It's a tremendous exercise in accurate bending. I mean, anything about that song, Amazing Grace, and this way that you're playing those five positions. I think the positions are 12 positions, second position, fourth position, 11th position, and first position, if I've got that right. I don't know if you've got them memorized. That sounds

SPEAKER_00:

correct to me. I guess, what can I say? I have been tremendously influenced by the chromatic approach of of a player like Howard Levy, tremendously influenced. So playing, bending and using it in a very sexy, sensual, emotional way is something that I just love. I can't say enough about how powerful that that is. And I think in many ways, I'm trying to get that point across in the song, but also not necessarily turn my back on the interval capabilities, chordal capabilities, and other capabilities that are just inherent to the way that the diatonic harmonica is tuned. I'm always going back and asking the question, what special thing can I do in this harp position that makes it magical, not sterilizing it and just playing everything as a clean single note melody. I'm looking for those little hidden gems that hopefully will show themselves in the way the harmonica is tuned.

SPEAKER_01:

You mentioned Howard Levy there, but I don't believe that you play overblows yourself, do you?

SPEAKER_00:

I do. I most certainly do. But I guess that it seems to me There's almost like a secret handshake that a lot of modern harmonica players have between each other in that if you use overblows, then you've sort of have advanced to like a higher degree of evolution. And it really irritates me because the sound of overblows is the weakest sound, in my opinion, that the diatonic harmonica makes. It's the... thinnest and weakest sounding of the clean single notes that the diatonic harmonica makes. Now, having an extra clean single note and having the ability to play chromatically can be really valuable at times, and I'm fully aware of that, and anybody that has closely monitored my playing and how I play... can see that I'm not afraid to incorporate that in. I just always try to minimize it because I feel like I'm not doing it as a badge of honor. I'm doing it because there's no other possible way to make that note happen in the music. And I really can't fake the note. I want the note, so I'm going to use it. I try not to call too much attention to that because the chordal interval octave part of the diatonic harmonica tuning is infinitely more interesting and compelling to me than making it play a chromatic lick.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think that's absolutely right, isn't it? I think if you use, when you need those notes to play some overblows, it works, isn't it? But if you do it too much to my ears, I'm not a big fan of it. But obviously, someone like Howard Levy is an absolute master. Do you play any chromatic at all? It's a chromatic

SPEAKER_00:

harmonica. Almost never. I sat down with one of my ACE students in the last six months, and we were listening carefully to a little Walter chromatic harmonica solo in one of the Muddy Waters songs. Don't go no further. I was really delighted to hear how little Walter actually playing more than four hole splits. I was hearing him do five hole splits on the chromatic and using the chromatic button quite a bit in that song also, which I think people just assume that he never uses the button. But other than in stuff like that, I don't tend to ever bring it out in a show, in a concert.

SPEAKER_01:

A question I'm asking each time, if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, my favorite harmonica exercise is the train imitation. You can never have good enough rhythm. You can never have big enough tone. You can never have enough rhythm. breath control and breath support in your playing. You got to love the sound of those harmonica chords being played. So the harmonica train imitation, that's where I'm always going back to. And I've actually been challenging my students these days to go back and revisit that to help overcome certain challenges in their own playing.

SPEAKER_01:

Talking about your teaching, you have a YouTube channel, I think the Felisco Harmonica Method, which you started five years ago, 148 videos when I looked at it yesterday. You've got the recent set of different ways to play When the Saints Go Marching In. So I think that you've got eight different styles to play that. I'll post a link to that up there as well. So yeah, a great approach. Some of the ones we've talked about, obviously playing Chicago style, playing Sonny Terry, but also playing Cajun, which you're very, I know you like playing Cajun harmonic and old time. I was interested on the videos on When the Saints, what is that can that you're holding when you're playing?

SPEAKER_00:

It's basically a resonator, a way to get around having to create resonance with two hands and just be able to create resonance with one hand.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because I noticed you are only playing with one hand all the time in these songs. So that's partly down to the camera you're holding.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. If you really go into the details of my teaching approach, I really encourage students to spend a bulk of their practice holding the harmonica with one hand, which enables everyone to breathe in a more effortless way. It also allows students to have a better posture. Most people, when they hold the harmonica with two hands, they end up slouching or raising their shoulders. I'm really just trying to rethink things, and I can't, in good faith, tell students to hold the harmonica with one hand if they're realizing that I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's really interesting, yeah, because obviously there's a lot of talk around your cupping technique and all the sounds you can make with two hands, so it's very interesting that you feel that's something that we maybe should re-look at.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And so the can that you're holding, is that something that you just made yourself, or is it particularly a product?

SPEAKER_00:

Junk, garbage. It's a tomato paste can or anything that is of that similar sort of diameter. It's the diameter of a slightly smaller bullet style, a microphone. And it really does make a big difference. And I think it's visually a lot more pleasant to look at a harmonica player that you can actually see the harmonica and see most of their face as opposed to two hands. Absolutely. obscuring a great percentage of their face.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and the harmonica war by Roley Platt, he's got a similar idea, but obviously that's bigger, isn't it? And that's a different idea, because that's something which has got an open end, doesn't it? And that's something that he's particularly trying to get a war effect, whereas that is just something which is resonating the sound more that you're using, isn't

SPEAKER_00:

it? I think that what Roley has does a fantastic job resonating the sound. My idea is more that I'm trying to give people an inroads to capturing that resonance of holding the harmonica skillfully with two hands and enable them to do that by holding the harmonica and the can skillfully with one hand.

SPEAKER_01:

You're well known for giving harmonica workshops. You have one I think you regularly contribute to in the US, which is the Old Time School of Folk Music. Is that around Chicago?

SPEAKER_00:

That is in Chicago, correct. And I've been there teaching since 1992.

SPEAKER_01:

You go over to Trossingen, where you do the Harmonica Masters workshop pretty much every year, of course, and then you come to the UK regularly. So talking gear, what's your harmonica of choice? I believe you play honours. You're an endorser for honours.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, definitely any manifestation of the honour marine band. The original 1896, the Marine Band Deluxe, the Crossover, I've even been known to play the Special 20, which is basically a plastic marine band. I like the shape, the feel. That is my go-to harmonica, the Hohner Marine Band.

SPEAKER_01:

And the Thunderbird, of course, you helped design that when it was brought out a few years ago. I think you contributed to the cover play.

SPEAKER_00:

That is correct. They ended up using my conical lower cover plate design to avoid having that annoying reed rattling sound on the lowest notes.

SPEAKER_01:

So, yeah, I have a few Thunderbirds. I've seen you talking about playing the low tunes. They are quite a different beast, aren't they? You know, they're a lot quieter. It's hard to bend them. It's hard to get, you know, real bite out of them. I've seen you using this term head tone, talking about playing the low tune ones. How do you use them yourself and any tips how to play them?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's a different beast. If you get a really low tuned harmonica and you approach it with the same mindset that you have for playing a standard tuned harmonica, you might end up being very disappointed. On a lot of the lower ones, I may use them and not bend notes. I may just use them for chordal interval notes. On the new record, I think I used a low D harmonica three or four times. It just was kind of a coincidence that that worked out. I did a lot of stuff on the high end of the harmonica, kind of like playing straight harp. blues in the key of D on the whole 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. And that's, I think, a more pleasant sound than a standard D harmonica playing up high like that. It is really a different beast. You have to rethink things. It's not a harmonica that you should feel like you need to be able to bend all the notes on it. That's not the way that I personally approach playing it.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you have a favorite key of harmonica? I'm going to preempt you here. I'm going to guess that I know that it's G.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

I think, again, that would go down to your chordal playing, your rhythmical playing. That's the reason you favor that one.

SPEAKER_00:

It might just relate that for many years, a G harmonica was the lowest widely available key harmonica that anybody could get. So a lot of those vintage harmonica recordings are done on a G harmonica or an A harmonica. And so I just feel really comfortable in that range. And it is definitely my go-to one for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Talking about amplifiers and microphones, clearly you're more of an acoustic player. So any particular amps that you use, or at least maybe talking about your acoustic sound, maybe what you use for that?

SPEAKER_00:

I have always made anywhere from 25% to 50% of amplifiers the songs that I do with Eric as amplified just to break things up. There's certain energy level in some of the songs we do that I don't feel like I can capture standing in front of a stationary vocal mic and projecting. So playing those amplified is really important.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah! Yeah! Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

My main go-to amp is this old Harmony amp with a six-inch speaker that's an old tube amp. It's a very, very small tube amp, maybe one of the smallest tube amps that was ever made. And it really works well with the acoustic guitar that Eric's playing. It's got a mighty sound, but it doesn't overpower. And that is really what you hear on all the amplified recordings or nearly all all the amplified recordings that Eric and I've done. And I don't tend to use it as much when we gig. We've been doing more restaurant sort of gigs where the music isn't the main thing. It's not a listening audience. And then I've been using this ZT Lunchbox Junior amp, which is a very small, solid state amp that's pretty loud. It actually doesn't sound that good as a harmonica amp. amplifier but it's loud and i i can make it sound pretty damn good through my the technique that i have and it has that extra bonus of being replaceable and very small and very portable much more portable than the other amp

SPEAKER_01:

so you don't really play for a big amp then again you don't really need the sort of bass or anything like that in the sort of style of music that you're playing well mainly because it's a duo correct any particular microphones that you're using

SPEAKER_00:

My favorite microphone shell is the Aesthetic T3. If you watch videos of Eric and I playing, you'll notice that in most of the songs, I also spend a significant part of the amplified playing holding the microphone with one hand. And I bring my other hand up for that real big money note when I really want to get the biggest sound possible. A static T3 shell, I have found, is the most friendly for holding the harmonica mic with one hand only. I

SPEAKER_01:

heard you talking about the best microphones at work, and you mentioned the Beyer 610 double-ribbon microphone.

SPEAKER_00:

I do use that. I do own one, but I have not used it in a long time. It's more important for me now to have one mic that sounds good, both with the harmonica and both with my singing voice. I don't have a real powerful singing voice, so generally the sound man has to turn the treble up a little bit on the EQ and roll the bass off a little bit on the EQ. Most people that play acoustic harmonica know that that seems like a dangerous combination because the harmonica is already trebly enough. So I have to overcompensate with my hand technique to make sure that the harmonica isn't harsh in terms of its trebliness in order to make my voice cut through and my voice to come through clear when I'm singing.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you use any FX pedals?

SPEAKER_00:

No, never. Eric and I, we really try not to put any effects on anything that we're doing. We try to really recreate that front porch sound as natural as possible.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thank you very much, Joe. You're very welcome. That's it for today, folks. Final word from my sponsor, the Longwolf Blues Company, providing some great effects pedals and microphones, all purpose-built for the harmonica. Be sure to check out their website.

SPEAKER_00:

of my kitchen stay out of my kitchen i don't mind

SPEAKER_02:

if you love so