Celebrating 100 Episodes! How to Become a Sought-after Speaker - David Avrin

On this very special 100th episode of Branding Matters, I’m excited too welcome back my very first guest - David Avrin.

David is a renowned keynote speaker, author and expert in the field of branding. With his extensive experience, David shares invaluable insights on how being a keynote speaker can be a game-changer in building your brand. 

This conversation is truly one of my favourites and is particularly relevant if you’re striving to create a strong and impactful brand presence in today's competitive landscape. 

Get ready to gain valuable strategies and perspectives from David on how to leverage keynote speaking to enhance your brand's visibility and success.


Here are the highlights from this episode:

03:44 - How David realised his love for public speaking

08:01 - Why the best speakers are teachers by heart

13:50 - Tips to overcome nerves when public speaking

18:25 - How to connect with your audience when you're on stage

27:01 - Why sharing your story gives you the credibility to offer advice

34:47 - How to differentiate yourself from other speakers

39:58 - Tips for doing virtual presentations 

45:00 - David’s badass superpower

Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a 5-star rating along with a brief review. And don't forget to order your BADASS T-shirt here.

About Me
Hey there, I'm Joelly - the Branding Badass. My BADASS superpower is helping you build a brand that matters. From branded merch to keynote speaking, when you work with me, you get results!

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linkedIn - Joelly Goodson
website - BAMKO.NET

Transcript

[00:00:00] Joelly: Hi, I'm Joelly, your branding badass. And welcome to another edition of Branding Matters, a podcast I created and host to help you build brand equity for your business. Before I introduce our guest, I just want to tell you that I am so excited because this is my 100th episode of Branding Matters. I never thought I'd get here, but here I am. 

[00:00:26] Joelly: And I'm so excited with my guest today. He was my very, very first interview. And I was so nervous when he came on and he didn't even know he was my first interview. So I'm thrilled to have him back. His name is David Avron and he is a renowned speaker, author, and expert in the field of branding. With his extensive experience, David shares invaluable insights on how being a keynote speaker can be a game changer in building your brand.

[00:00:53] Joelly: Our conversation is truly one of my favorites. And it's particularly relevant if you're striving to create a strong and impactful brand presence in today's super competitive landscape. Get ready to gain valuable strategies and perspectives on how to leverage keynote speaking to enhance your brand's visibility and success. 

[00:01:13] Joelly: David, welcome to branding matters… again! 

[00:01:16] David: Again, you know what? You can't get enough of Dave and Joelly talking about branding and everything that helps us build our businesses. No, I'm, I'm thrilled to be back. I'll tell you. And this is just me sucking up a little bit. I am thrilled to watch the growth, the award winning growth of your podcast. 

[00:01:32] David: You're killing it. And for those of you listening or watching, do we do video as well? Okay. For those listening or watching, you are in for a treat, not just because it's me and Joelly, but because her stuff is great. If you haven't yet, go back and listen to some of the past episodes. She's got some killer people on there as well. 

[00:01:50] David: You want to build your business. You want to grow your brand. This is the podcast or at least one of the podcasts that you need to be listening to. How's that?

[00:02:00] Joelly:  That was awesome. You're very kind. And I appreciate that. And I have a confession to share with you live right now in front of all our audience.

[00:02:08] David: Yay. What's that? 

[00:02:09] Joelly: Okay. You were my very first interview. When I started. Really. I know you find that shocking. When you, when I interviewed you, I, I think you remember I was crazy nervous, reached out to you cause I read your books and I learned so much. And so when you said yes, and then I was doing my whole scheduling, I had a bunch of people, but you were, you were the first one. 

[00:02:30] Joelly: So I remember when I interviewed you, you were like, so have you done any of these before? And I'm like, Oh yeah, a couple. Yeah. You first. 

[00:02:37] David: I remember you well, I remember you were a little bit nervous, but here's the thing. For somebody like you who's been in the business for a long time, you may be new to a particular platform, but you come from experience. 

[00:02:47] David: I mean, you know your stuff, you know your content, and so it takes a little while to get used to sort of a podcast. The thing that that makes you great and makes listening and watching these podcasts great, is that you know your subject people, people don't care as much about how adept you are at at podcasting per se, though you've gotten very, very good at that, is that, you know, branding. 

[00:03:04] David: And that's why we listen. So even from the very first one, what came across very well is that, you know, your subject and that's what we're cranking out. Uh, every, every week is new content to help people build their brands and build their business. 

[00:03:17] Joelly: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. But I, I just wanted to confess that cause I was like, yeah, I remember when you asked me, you're like, if you've done these before, I'm like, Yeah. 

[00:03:30] David: Okay. Let's talk about where we are today. 

[00:03:30] Joelly: Yeah. So let's dive right in. So thanks for coming back. You know, now I have more of a following, so let's get right into it. So before we start, David, I want you to tell me about the moment when you knew you couldn't do anything else other than public speaking.

[00:03:44] David: What a great question. For those of us who have the bug, which is the confidence to get up in front of a room and, and I think it's, it's wiring. I always assumed that the people who did this kind of work speaking for organizations, training, consulting were extroverts to the core, which I am. I've always been, I am, I am an extrovert to the core and always have been. 

[00:04:04] David: But I have come across so many colleagues who aren't, they feel called to share and to teach and to present or the stories or whatever they do, but not everybody is sort of oriented this way. I am. And I've been really fortunate that I've been on stage my entire life. I went to college on a full ride theater scholarship. 

[00:04:21] David: And so I think you and I talked about this a long time ago. We both have a great love for the theater. Um, but I also realized shortly afterwards, I got to support a wife and kids someday. And, and I don't want to be doing community theater in God's wrath, Iowa, years old. And so what I really did in the early part of my career, that sort of gives me the, the standing to, to be here to talk about all this is I did marketing and branding for many organizations, some big national companies as well and did campaigns. 

[00:04:44] David:  I had my own marketing firm, but invariably when you have some measure of expertise and some visibility, people ask you to come and share and whether it's speaking for a class, do a summer course, I would teach at a Denver university or serve on a expert panel or something like this, but it was, it was when I came across a client of mine who wanted me to promote his speaking. 

[00:05:07] David: It was a keynote speaker. And I remember having a conversation. I said, wait, you get paid for this? Like you make how much money for an hour? And his answer, he laughed and he says, yeah, but I don't do it every hour. And so that was 24 years ago. And so that was the moment when I realized that what I'm really wired for, which is teaching and sharing that I could actually make a living doing it. 

[00:05:29] David: It's not an easy living, you know, speaking. And I, I talk to organizations and speaker groups all the time. Speaking is not a business. Getting the gig is the business, right? Speaking is the performance. We love that. And it's kind of analogous to almost anything you do in business, small, medium sized businesses is the business is getting business. 

[00:05:47] David: Right. The business is selling ourselves to our clients. The deliverable oftentimes is the part we really like. It's, it's the delivery of the products and services, but it's the business development is the business generation. That is the hard part. And very few in my profession have longevity because, because they'll take a three day workshop on hand gestures and they can't understand why the phone isn't ringing. 

[00:06:11] David: I'm like, dude, seriously. Pick up the phone. Anyways, a long answer to your question, but I'm really fortunate. I, the first part of my career, I talked about marketing and branding. What are the words that we use to help describe what we do? Better communicate that. And I've made a big shift in the last seven years. 

[00:06:25] David: The branding is a big part of it, but, uh, into customer experience. And so how are we known from a branding perspective? In the marketplace, beyond our quality and our commitment and our caring and our trust in people, are we known as easy to do business with? Do we have technology that is current that facilitates easy transactions, easy interactions. 

[00:06:44] David: And my whole business now in the books that I write and the organizations I speak for is about helping organizations be known as being ridiculously easy to do business with. 

[00:06:55] Joelly: Well, and you're doing obviously a phenomenal job. You're such in high demand and I've seen many of your speeches and they're all amazing. 

[00:07:02] Joelly: So congrats on that. And thank you for sharing that.

[00:07:06] David:  Mutual admiration society. 

[00:07:08] Joelly: And I also want to share with our audience. So I love that you said that because another reason I want to bring you back is because of my podcast and for whatever reason, I've had people been reaching out to me recently to come and speak at their events. 

[00:07:21] Joelly: And this is something I never really anticipated, but like everything, I like to. Try new things and jump in and so I reached out to you recently and because again, I look up to you and I love your speaking and I said, Hey, I've been asked to do some speaking. Can you give me some pointers? And you were so generous and we got on the zoom and you shared a bunch of stuff with me. 

[00:07:39] Joelly: And when we're doing that, I said, you know, this should be a podcast. Because a huge part of public speaking is branding and they are definitely not mutually exclusive. And so I thought, well, if I need help with it and you gave me some amazing pointers, I have no doubt my audience will. So great segue into that, because what you're going to share today is hopefully going to help other people the way you've helped me. 

[00:07:58] Joelly: So you talked about your background in branding and marketing. So how do you think that helped you with your career in speaking? 

[00:08:03] David: I don't, I don't know that it, that it, it necessarily obviously led into it, but I think the best speakers are teachers at heart. It's teaching what you know, everybody talks about the biggest fear is always this public speaking, right? 

[00:08:15] David: And the top 10 and like death is seven public speaking. People have this abject fear of it. And I always say, I guarantee the people waking up in Ukraine this morning are not worried about having to give a speech, right? There are real fears in the world, but the best speakers don't really even think of what they're doing as giving a speech. 

[00:08:32] David: They're just teaching what they know. And this is with, with our conversation very recently and for the others who are listening, if you have a measure of expertise. In your subject area, there is great opportunities to share that knowledge, to teach what it is that you know, in a concise and meaningful and usable user friendly way. 

[00:08:53] David: You can use that for revenue generation directly. I do this for a living. I speak and I consult a lot of people do it for business development. I mean, it's exposure of your expertise. You're giving us a sense, a taste of what it is that you do. And then you get those people say, do you have a card? Like, like, could you do that for us? 

[00:09:10] David: And so probably most speaking is actually just business presentations to highlight their expertise or their products and services. I would suggest that everybody who is in outside sales certainly is a speaker, right? It's what they do. They're teaching, they're emoting, they're detailing the features and benefits of the products and services that they have. 

[00:09:33] David: There's just a lot of other venues for that. Most of the conferences, and this is different than it was probably 20 years ago when I started doing this about 24 years ago. Is most of the conferences I go to association events and almost everybody listening or watching this, you're probably a member of your association, right? 

[00:09:47] David: If you make wallpaper in your company, then you're a member of the national wall coverings association or lighting association. I mean, every there's an association for everything. In those conferences, maybe it's a three or four day conference. They'll be two or three keynote speakers, but there's probably 30 or 40 breakout sessions. 

[00:10:06] David: And most of those breakout sessions, oftentimes they're vendors within the space who want a little bit of FaceTime. So they teach something other times. It's, it's also fellow members who are sharing best practices of things that they have done or learned within that industry and that skill of being able to, to share your knowledge in the front of the room is incredibly valuable. 

[00:10:28] David: And that kind of a skill is incredibly important. That's why organizations like Toastmasters International are super important. That just, it was basically helping people who struggled to just. Stand and deliver. It doesn't mean most of them are professional speakers, but there are hundreds of thousands of members of Toastmasters. 

[00:10:47] David: It's a great way to practice, to practice in front of your peers, because when you get in the work world or whether you're an entrepreneur, for the reason you're listening to this podcast, any chance you have of being very articulate. In espousing what it is you do and where your expertise is in front of a client, in front of a chapter meeting, in front of an association is phenomenal for business development.

[00:11:08] Joelly: I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. You know, it's funny. You were talking earlier about teaching and I, I don't know about you, but I used to want to be a teacher. Those, that was one of my career goals when I was younger. I thought, Oh, I want to be a teacher because I 

[00:11:20] David: You wanted to be the cool teacher. Didn't you? 

[00:11:22] David:I'm going to be, I'm going to be the cool teacher that all the kids like. 

[00:11:24] Joelly: Yeah, it's so true. Actually, my grade six teacher, Madame Bergeron, my French teacher, she was the one that I looked up to. She dressed so cool and I thought, Oh, I want to be a teacher, but that didn't last very long. So do you ever get nervous before you get up on stage?

[00:11:36] David: People are going to hate to hear this. Um, no, I don't, but I'll ask you a question. Do you get nervous when you go to work? You know, most people, it's what I do and I've done it long I'm coming up on my 25th year that God, I hope this doesn't sound arrogant. I'm good at what I do. I mean, every, a lot of people are very good at what they do.

[00:11:43] Joelly: Well, I can vouch for that. 

[00:11:53] David: Yeah. Well, and I know that for me, the only question is what are they gonna laugh at? You know, my presentation's very entertaining. There's a lot of humor, but I use that strategically to temper a pretty tough message, right. About what it takes to compete and win. But for me, the part I hate is the business part, right? 

[00:12:11] David: You know, the employees, and I love my employees, but uh, you know, it's the business development. It's the travel, which is horrible. Many people saw my little, my. Clever little Tiktok video on Instagram that I did. I 12 days it took to get my luggage back. 12 days. 

[00:12:24] Joelly: That video is amazing. I've told, I already told you that, but if you haven't seen his video, you have to check it out because that is hilarious.

[00:12:32] David: You can do it on my, on my My Instagram is therealdavidavrin, because there's a lot of fake ones or just my name, David Avrin on LinkedIn. But anyway, that's the part that's really hard, but back to your question about getting nervous. I'm eager. And I think that's the opposite. What's really funny is even for people who do this, and I've been very fortunate to speak on some very big stages. 

[00:12:51] David: So I was in Bangkok, Thailand, speaking for the million dollar roundtable, which is about 10, 000 life insurance professionals from around the world. It's like Carnegie hall for a speaker. So it's, it's a really big honor to be able to do main stage. Well, backstage, first of all, they've got more real time translation going on, than the United Nations has

[00:13:09] David: So there's booths all along thing of all these different languages, people wearing headphones, but right before you walk on up the stairs to the back of the stage and you walk out in front of 10, 000 people, they have trash cans on both sides for people to throw up into because people are so nervous about it. 

[00:13:27] David: And I just laughed and my wife is like, have you met my husband because I love this. I love this. So the answer is if I was asked to speak on a subject that I don't speak about, I would be nervous because I would be unprepared, but I've been doing it for a long time. I work very hard at what I do. I work very hard on tailoring my message to every industry and organization that I speak for. 

[00:13:50] David: And so I think one of the ways, if we're going to look for takeaways and not just Dave's resume is one of the best ways to overcome nerves. Is preparation and preparation doesn't mean try to memorize it. I use slides just to keep myself on track because they have so many tangents that you can probably have conversation that I go down, but when you really worry about memorizing a script and you're not really thinking about the words that you say, so I always advise people, if there aren't experienced speakers, have a structure. 

[00:14:17] David: Just a structure, you know, and I'm going to make this point. I'm going to tell that story. And then I'm going to do this as a recap, and then I'll make another point and I'll tell another story and just know what those things are. You don't need a script for that. People really worry that if they don't have a script, but what I find is for those who try to memorize, there's so much angst around the memorization that the content doesn't really come through. 

[00:14:40] David: So, knowing your stuff, don't speak on something you're not an expert on, and uh, it's easier to uh, avoid the nerves. 

[00:14:47] Joelly: Yeah. I totally agree with you. I'm the same way. Same thing, my slides are sort of what keep me on track, and I can just look at the picture and then it totally helps me describe it. 

[00:14:57] Joelly: I love that. And I like to, and I like to infuse humor into it. So what do you think of the idea of having words on a screen versus pictures? What's your preference? 

[00:15:06] David: It depends on the moment. There's a lot of right ways to do it, but there's some very clear wrong ways. If it's a slide deck that's meant for a presentation that you email to somebody and there's lots of words on the screen, it's horrible.

[00:15:18] David: Not just like not advisable horrible. The only thing that makes that worse is when you're standing on stage, you turn your back to the audience and you read the slides to the audience. That's even worse than that. Words on the screen. I do simple titles. I do point number one. I don't do lists of things. 

[00:15:34] David: And if I do any kind of list, it's one or two words. And it's just meant to keep things on track, but don't deliver a ton of information. It shouldn't be that much information in a presentation anyway, that they have to, that they have to remember. I use a lot of pictures, like a big picture. And then there's a story that goes with that, or it'll be a picture of, you know, an angry customer. 

[00:15:55] David: And I'll talk about the trends of, of why people are getting frustrated or impatient. Today, more than ever, and what the ramifications of that might be. And then behind me, they just sort of see this illustration that has them self identifying going, Oh, I remember that. Or I'll tell a really poignant story about my daughter and I'll have this adorable picture behind me. 

[00:16:13] David: And it just stays up there for two minutes while I'm telling this story. But it's, it's the things that if it helps illustrate the point that you're making, if you're talking about omni channel and you've got a picture that shows all the different ways that people communicate, it helps connect all of that.

[00:16:28] David: I think it can be incredibly valuable, very few words, but there's also a structure. You and I talked about this, that there's the old structure of three points in a poem, or there's the structure of go on stage, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. 

[00:16:42] David: Right. All of that sort of works. But if I've got three major points that I'm going to make, I'll put those three points on the screen. I'll go back and remind them. Okay. So point number one was this point. Number two is this. And finally, I think it's important for us to remember X, Y, Z, whatever that might be. 

[00:16:56] David: And then at the very end of quick wrap up, here are three points. So they remember with a value they received. There is an art to that. There's a structure to that, but most people aren't really called to give a formal keynote presentation. It might be a training session. It might be a sales presentation or something else. 

[00:17:12] David: Being clear on the content that you, I want them to walk away with this, right? If you try and tell them too much, they're not going to remember anyway, minimize the words on the screen, maximize the words coming out of your mouth. That was good. I get it. That was good. I'm going to write that one down.

[00:17:28] David: Yeah. 

[00:17:29] Joelly: Thank you for sharing that. That was amazing. No, it was awesome. I love it. Hey, it's Joelly here. Just thought I'd check in to see if you're enjoying the show so far. Have you learned anything new? Are you excited to build your brand and skyrocket your profits? You know, they don't call me the Branding Badass for nothing. 

[00:17:45] Joelly: For more than 20 years, I've been helping businesses like yours unlock their brand's untapped potential. And on January 1st, 2021, I launched Branding Matters as a way for you to have free access to some of the world's most brilliant leaders who provide valuable branding tips to help you build your brand. 

[00:18:02] Joelly: But let's be honest, information is not the answer. Implementation is. So if you want help implementing everything you're learning here, check out the link in my bio. I'm offering a free 15 minute consult, but spots are limited, so don't wait. Act now and let's see if what I have to offer will help you unlock your brand's untapped potential. 

[00:18:21] Joelly: Reach out to me today and let's make your brand matter. 

[00:18:24] Joelly: So when you're trying to connect with people, with your audience, you're up on stage, obviously your goal is to connect with your audience. How do you do that? Can you give some tips on how to connect when you're up on stage?

[00:18:35] David: Well, first and foremost, and it's a word that's thrown around constantly, authenticity. 

[00:18:41] David: Authenticity. And it doesn't mean try, pardon my language, crap, like your job is to step into your power and to speak your truth. And I don't even know what any of that means that that just means you're using the stage for your therapy. The reality is you're there to teach them something. And that's where I think much of my success, because the person I am in this podcast and the person I am in my real life and the person I am on stage is the same person. 

[00:19:07] David: Somebody's asking, like, do you sound like you're talking on the radio when you're at home, honey, would you pass the salt? He said, no, that's Scott McCain, my good friend and phenomenal speaker as well, uh, with a great voice. Um, don't try and be somebody. Women are horrible to women in how they critique each other's clothes or shoes. 

[00:19:23] David: You shouldn't have worn it. Who cares what you wear? Be you, be real. Nobody in the audience is sitting there with their arms folded going, they better darn well be good. Cause I swear to God. No, they're just my God, just teach them what you know. They just hope they get some value. And if you're funny, that's even better. 

[00:19:40] David: You know, I, I had this one woman I had heard speak the other day and she was really good. She was really authentic. She was just, you could tell that she's like the kind of person I told her afterwards. I said, you're the kind of person where the audience will look at you and go, I love her. I love her. 

[00:19:58] David: She was just authentic. It wasn't so worried about, um, a lot of people who do speech training are horrible. Anybody who comes off of Broadway or comes out of New York, and we're going to teach you stage crap. Don't wander around the stage, pick a spot, move intentionally to the spot and then make your gesture. 

[00:20:15] David: I'm like, Kill me. It's, it's so affected. It's so artificial. Somebody came up to me afterwards and he says, are you, are you, are you open to some feedback? And immediately I knew he was a toastmaster because that's what they say in my brain. I was like, okay, Sparky, give me your best shot. But I was very nice because I am. 

[00:20:31] David: And I said, sure. And he says, you know, when you put your hand in your pocket on stage, you lose your power. And I said, I don't know what that means. He said, will you lose your powers? I don't, I don't think I do. Do you know why I put my hand in my pocket? Because it was comfortable. I'm just not into pop psychology. 

[00:20:46] David: I mean, we're going back to your question for those who are wondering where I'm going with all of this authenticity, be you really cautious of overtraining. Now you can get great training on like storytelling. Like here's a good structure for a story. Stories have  characters, they have dialogue, they have heroes and it's never you.

[00:21:04] David:  I mean, all that stuff is really good advice to tell a good, concise, powerful story, but when you're overly affected and that you make a certain gesture in the exact same word, every time. You look like you're giving a speech. And so I've worked with others as well and helping them. And I'm just stop trying to be perfect. 

[00:21:23] David: And it's the same thing. I think you and I had that conversation in our very first podcast. We talked afterwards is like, stop thinking about how you're supposed to do it. Just have conversation, have good conversations and invite other people to listen. And that's how I do my podcast as well. I tell them beforehand, I'm not going to give you, and you didn't give me a list of questions. You said, I've just got some questions that we're going to ask and then let the conversation go where it was. Same thing on stage. Be authentic. 

[00:21:49] Joelly: Right. Well, first of all, I love that. And I totally agree with you. I think you have to be, and I'm like you, I'm the same as you know, the way I'm talking right now when we were not filming. 

[00:21:57] Joelly: Right. And I'm the same way with clients and everything else. But I want to get a little bit more detailed as far as building the connection with the audience, because I think you can be authentic and be yourself and be a good speaker, but making a connection with somebody. So I'll take it from my perspective as an audience member, when I go and I listen to speeches and I listen to people and I've seen you, what makes me connect with them and like them is when I can relate or identify with what they're saying, I just want to get your take on that.

[00:22:25] David: So there's different ways of doing this. One of the challenges. Is that if you have a really unique story and others don't, then you are going to connect with someone. You're not going to connect with others. It doesn't mean you don't tell, tell your story. Um, I hear the things all the time. Everything you want in life is on the other side of fear. 

[00:22:42] David: I don't, I don't have fear. I just, I don't connect with that, but I recognize that other people come from that place, but that's not me. So I don't make a connection. What I have found works really well. Is to articulate scenarios. Oftentimes, if they're funny scenarios or frustrating scenarios that other people go, Oh my God, I hate that too. 

[00:23:02] David: Right. And for those who have read my book, which is over my shoulder here, why customers leave and how to win them back. Much of that, by the way, is a rant of the things that just make me crazy. Of course, it's not just diagnostic. It's also prescriptive. Here's things that you can do better as a Pardon my language pissing off your customers, but the stories that I tell in the scenarios that I articulate, I want people to self identify or there's little tricks you can do on stage. 

[00:23:30] David: I learned that a meeting years ago from a colleague, like don't tell people to raise their hand, just raise your hand. And physically, for those who are watching, you just hold your hand up and go, okay, so how many of you, I thought that's a really nice little trick or instead of saying, raise your hand today. 

[00:23:43] David: So who else. Um, does it like whatever else? And they see that and then they do it back or the things where. You know, I'll say now, I say, any of you notice that your customers or clients are a little more frustrating, a little more impatient, a little more demanding. And you look out there and everybody's like, just made a connection because they're like, yes, he gets us, right? 

[00:24:07] David: And I'm like, I know we're all, but let me tell you why right now we're in a conversation because it's not just me talking to them. I'm, I'm articulating scenarios that they can identify with. And that's all very strategic. I have points I need to make, but I have to illustrate those points. I have to show how it manifests in the real business world. 

[00:24:24] David: So they go, Oh, I get it. That totally happens to me too. Well, here's how to look at it differently. Here's some strategies and tactics to, to affect that, to alter the perception of your customers and clients, but it's bringing up scenarios. And the lazy ones is like, let's tell the FedEx story or let's tell the starfish story, kill me. 

[00:24:41] David: But the best ones are where you actually talk about behaviors. And you know, the probably the best examples of this is called observational humor. It's Jerry Seinfeld. It's Paul Reiser. If you remember. Yeah. And they were like, like, don't you hate it? When I know, right now it's not doing it. And all they're doing is they're articulating scenarios that we've, Oh my God, I've totally been there. 

[00:25:02] David: And so that engenders a connection because you're not talking about something that they can't understand. When you get on stage and talk about your journey, climbing Everest. Or when you lost both of your legs in an accident or cancer, I mean, I've great heart for that, but I struggle to see the connection. 

[00:25:18] David: Okay. I appreciate what you've been through. I certainly have not. I have not overcome what you've overcome, but because you were able to climb a mountain blind or without legs and I'm not mocking, I'm admiring, but I’m just think about the connection. And this is gonna sound really condescending, but I don’t mean it to be so because I’m really all in on tangible ROI. 

[00:25:37] David: But when you do something and people feel inspired for a minute and they go back and they go back to their work and they do the same thing they've always done because there isn't a real connection. I have an old boss who used to say, when you do that, it's like peeing in your pants. Stay with me. You'll get a warm feeling for a minute, but it won't give you, it won't do you much good in the long run. 

[00:25:55] David: The best speakers. Are ones that don't just make them feel good for a minute, but actually equip them with new skills and strategies and perspectives that help them do what they do better or different or faster. And so I think I could describe my longevity in the business is that I'm very, very cognizant is that, as you said, I have to make a connection with the audience. 

[00:26:15] David: Sometimes it's through humor. Um, sometimes it's like, I want them to go, Oh, I like him because he's funny. But then I leveraged that to help them take their medicine, which is kind of hard to take about what we need to be doing differently. And otherwise, if I was up there yelling at him for an hour, they wouldn't listen to the thing I had to say. 

[00:26:30] David: So that connection is really important, but then you have to use that connection ethically and responsibly. And don't just do it to make them like you, but to make them receptive to the advice and the counsel that you provide. That was good too. I'm writing down all of this stuff. 

[00:26:49] Joelly: Okay. But with that said, where do you think telling your story comes in? 

[00:26:54] Joelly: I mean, when you and I talked, you talked about, yeah, you talked about like, share your story, but only share this amount. So can you elaborate a bit on that? 

[00:27:01] David: Well, let me, let me, let me read, let me clarify that. It's the story is the setup. To the solution you provide, it's to establish that you have credibility and credentials and gravitas to offer the advice. 

[00:27:16] David: Cause you've been there or here's right. We always say, don't just tell us what you've done. Tell us what you learned and mistake that sometimes early speakers make. And these are generally speakers who were encouraged by somebody who has no idea what speaking is to be a speaker. Like, Oh my God, that story about you and saving the dog and the blah, blah, blah. 

[00:27:33] David: You should, you should be a motivational speaker. You could, you could inspire people. It's the absolute wrong reason to be a speaker. Um, and I don't call myself a motivational speaker. So the mistake that they make is they think the hour long presentation is their story. And at the end, there's five minutes of takeaway. 

[00:27:51] David: Right. It's the mountain climber that talks about all the, the steps, right. That having the vision and the preparation and choosing the right team. And then Kenny falls in a crevasse and then we wanted to quit, but we decided to persevere and buck. And then they get to the top of the mountain and they talk about celebrating success. 

[00:28:05] David: And then they turn to the audience at minute 56 of the hour long, they turn to the office and audience and they say, so what mountain are you putting off climbing? And then I'm slashing my wrist under the table. The reality is that journey. It's a small part of the presentation. It's what sets up the lessons. 

[00:28:22] David: And so maybe you do a little bit of that and then you talk about selecting the right team and the lesson. And then there's a story about that. And then we talk about what happens when we don't do it and here's what it looks like in an organization. And then we go into the next step, which is about perseverance or whatever else. And then we, you know, and then you sort of pepper it throughout. But what I meant is that your story gives you credibility, gives you the right to get on that stage. But you were there to serve the audience, you're there to solve their problems, not to get your therapy, not to feed your ego. Now, if you do a really good job of it, it's wonderful for the ego. 

[00:28:57] David: I mean, we, not a lot of people have a job where people clap for them at the end of the day. Let's be honest. It's a pretty nice gig to have, but. Your story gives you a structure for the lessons you want. It gives the points that you want to make that help you help them with whatever they need help with, whatever you're there. 

[00:29:14] David: It might be organization. It might be leadership. It might be time management, or you might be just an inspirational speaker after dinner. Or if you're a salesperson, the story is about somebody else who had the same problem as you and how your product or service helped solve that for them. Then they can see, I see how that works, right? 

[00:29:32] David: It's using that. The problem is a lot of people get into speaking or taking advice from people who aren't speakers. When you talk about when you get on the, on the circuit, there is no circuit, Joelly, you and I talked about this. There is no speaking circuit. There are gigs and there's opportunities, but the good news every day in Las Vegas, for example, every day, there's about 600 conferences. 

[00:29:51] David: Every day, so they're, everybody's looking for speakers and if you have a desire to do this, become a student of the craft. I mean, my real advice is probably one of the questions you had to ask me is become a student. If you really are good at time management or you want to talk about leadership development or sales, become a student of other people who do it. 

[00:30:11] David: Go to websites of other people and watch their preview video. Watch how they're doing it. What are you saying? That's different. No shortage of competent people and smart people, but what are you doing or saying that makes somebody go? That's interesting. I had not thought about that before or totally makes sense, right? 

[00:30:30] David: Maybe you say, listen, we've been talking about this for 50 years, but it doesn't work anymore. And here's why. And then it goes into your level. It's one of those pick a lane. You got to pick a lane. You really don't know what that is until you watch other people. And don't assume everybody else is doing well, but at least you can see what other choices meeting planners have, or if you want to just be able to be better in sales or whatever else, just watch. 

[00:30:52] David: There's wonderful communicators, wonderful messengers, and we can all learn from everybody. 

[00:30:58] Joelly: Yeah, I totally agree. And definitely we can all learn from you. So that's why I researched you.

[00:31:02] David: Oh, stop. 

[00:31:05] Joelly: It's true. 

[00:31:06] David: Everyone's saying nice things. Please.

[00:31:07] Joelly: I know, but I'm just being. Okay. No, but with that said, and I love, love, love that you said that, but do you think it's valuable in getting formal training? 

[00:31:15] Joelly: I mean, you talked about Toastmasters, Dale Carnegie is another thing that's offered. What's your, what do you think about that whole formal training?

[00:31:20] David: I think there's a couple of reputable organizations that are actually pretty good. Ultimately, if you want to end up doing this for real and professionally, you're going to have to break beyond that. 

[00:31:31] David: And most people, like I said, even who do Dale Carnegie or do Toastmasters don't have an intention of speaking for a living. Very few people actually do that, but it can make you better at everything. I mean, if you were looking to sell your services, right? I mean, for you, Joelly, in the work that you do as the, as the branding badass, you have to be able to communicate that in a way that people want to follow you, which they do by the tens of thousands. 

[00:31:54] David: It's because you're able to articulate and bring in and bring value to them through expertise of others as well. Just being able to verbally communicate. I mean, if I were to go back in school, I would have done forensics. I would have done DECA. I would have done debate team. I had no idea I was going to do this for a living. I was. Yeah, I was on stage doing Oklahoma. Poor Judd is dead. Poor Judd Frye is dead. 

[00:32:20] Joelly: You know. Yeah, it's funny. We have a lot of things in common. We've talked about this too. Because I did theatre. I was Anita in West Side Story back in the day. So, yeah, definitely love being on stage. 

[00:32:29] Joelly: You know, you, you mentioned briefly earlier when you talked about differentiation. I mean, ultimately, branding is the art of differentiation. And so, when people are looking for speakers and if you want to stand out from all the other speakers, and you're trying to differentiate yourself, what are some tips that you can give someone to help them do that? 

[00:32:46] Joelly: If the topic is the same. So let's say for example, branding for me, right? There's a million people out there that are quote unquote branding experts and they talk about branding. So why would somebody reach out to me and ask me to speak at their conference versus a million other branding experts? 

[00:32:59] David: Well, there's two things there. 

[00:33:01] David: There's the content in the context and the content is what's your unique take. Well, that's, that's part of the context, the context is, is, no, no, but all, but that's all, it's all important. I mean, they used to say you're either content speaker or you're a charisma speaker. And I like to think that I'm both because that's what I want to leverage. 

[00:33:21] David: But on the content side. Are you saying something that's unique, that sounds profound, or is there a specific message? Now, some people try to take a shortcut around this and they'll say like in sales, the customer is always wrong. And it's just a cheap way of trying to get attention, but it's not credible. 

[00:33:39] David: There's other ways. And so I'm within the customer experience space right now. There's no shortage of customer experience, customer service experts. Some of them sort of made them morph over. So I started thinking, what's my unique message. I spent a lot of years in marketing and branding. And so my message right now, and what do I do differently than others? 

[00:33:56] David: I help organizations become ridiculously easy to do business with. That's it. That's what I do. And I do it for hotel and hospitality. I do it for financial service. I do it for dentistry. I do it for manufacturing. That's my unique message. I bring in research and I've added exercises. If I said, I'm going to help you improve your customer experience. 

[00:34:16] David: What does that mean? There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people who've been doing it longer than I have. But not what I do, and my books are around that as well. And so part of it is, it's a niche within a lane. 

[00:34:26] Joelly:  So with that said, if I'm someone, and I'm not me, but someone who's listening, because, you know, I, I've talked about this with you. 

[00:34:33] Joelly: I think when you get up on stage and you do presentations and keynotes speaking. That is a great way to help grow your brand and your brand and everything, right? So this is very connected to that. So you're trying to, you're out there, you're listening to my podcast and you're thinking, yeah, I want to go do more keynote speeches. 

[00:34:47] Joelly: I want to grow my brand. How do I differentiate myself when I have a million other people that do exactly what I do? 

[00:34:52] David: Yeah, I don't care that there's a million other people do what I do. I just want to find the people who need what I offer. So I don't look at my competition. I look at the marketplace. So I am very cognizant of my competition, but I think who is my ideal client? 

[00:35:05] David: What from my experiences and my successes and my learning, could I help them do better? That they're willing to pay somebody to help them. There's a lot of people who have this message that they want to get out to the world, but it doesn't mean there's a market for that, right? You have to be fundable. So back to your question about in terms of message, I would ask people instead of saying what's hot, what subjects are, what are you damn good at? 

[00:35:29] David: What would you shout from the mountaintop? What is it that you see being done wrong time and time again? Right. It's like, I just like so frustrated. It's like, I keep seeing business do blank and blank. Here's what they don't get. Well, there's your foundation. There's something in that. What's the assertion that you might make? 

[00:35:44] David: John Gray, the author didn't tell everybody that men and women were just different in relationships. Right. His whole thing is we're from different planets. Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Martians do this. Venusians do that. If you read all this stuff, he's not really saying much different. He found a really clever way of articulating and illustrating what we've always talked about. 

[00:36:03] David: Like we're from different plants. We are, here's what these, this planet does. And it became captivating and different. And the fact that he, You know, in third or fourth marriages irrelevant, but in terms of content, don't be in a hurry. It takes a while to put all this together, but what you may think is really brilliant, like the amount of people I've heard saying, listen, what I do is infotainment and they smile. 

[00:36:25] David: Like they have created the cure for cancer that tastes like chocolate. And I said, Google infotainment and they'll realize there's like 47 million. Mentions, they thought they created the term for a lot of years. I had trademarked the term visibility coach. That was my early part of my career. When I was doing marketing, I called myself the visibility coach and I trademarked the term. 

[00:36:42] David: And I would get probably four or five notifications a year because I would do an automated search of somebody else who said, I am a visibility coach. I had this one woman who had created 40 videos. I am so and so the visibility coach. And I had to reach out or say, you're not. Cause I own that trademark. 

[00:36:58] David: She wasn't doing anything intentionally nefarious. She wasn't trying to, to screw me on my brand. She just didn't do her market research. And I felt bad, but it's not what I do anymore. So I actually let that lapse. And now there's like 50 people have taken up the moniker, but do research, become a student of the craft. 

[00:37:15] David: If you think you've come up with a really clever idea, think persuasive more than pithy and clever search online. Make sure nobody else is doing it. So if you have this, like I came up with a perfect term, this is going to be my niche. Make sure that 40 other people aren't doing it because anyway, there's sort of the early part. 

[00:37:33] David: Let me go to the other part real quick. So that's the content. Content is you got to have a message. It's got to be unique. It's got to be fundable, right? You can say I'm the only on stage dog polisher. Nobody in the world, Joelly, polishes dogs on stage. I am unique. There is a solution looking for a problem, right? 

[00:37:51] David: Nobody's going to hire you for that. There's a reason why nobody else does it. Now, the context is different is what do you look like? What's your style? Are you humorous? Are you serious? There's a lot of older speakers been doing this for a long time, but haven't changed their website in 15 years. They're not seen as current and the reality is when somebody's looking for a speaker in most cases, they're not Making the decision in a vacuum, not saying, should we hire Joelly Goodson to be our speaker? 

[00:38:15] David: They're saying, no, we've got a conference over three days. We've got two open slots. What do we want? Do we want sales? Do we want emotional intelligence? So it's within the context of so many other choices. You have to be a better choice in that. And so what you look like online, for those who really aspire to speak and get paid for it, you got to have video that shows what you do, and you want to put this from a branding analogy, it's sampling, it's Costco on a Saturday, you can feed a family of 12. 

[00:38:43] David: At Costco on a Saturday. Cause right. Sample, sample, sample, sample, right? It makes a big purchase easier to say yes to because they see what you do. So what's really important for me as a professional keynote speaker and consultant is that clients will go to my website. It's right there in the center of  my, of my homepage. 

[00:39:00] David: If you want to check it out at davidavrin.com is a six minute video of me speaking all over the world. That is my brand. They see me the way I want to be seen. I promote the kind of work that I want more of, and that's the other thing I say is so, so I do a lot of small groups. You'll never see video of me speaking in front of a small group because I promote the kind of work I want more of. 

[00:39:23] David: So you'll see me on the big stage with, for remix or Hilton hotels or Toyota, because that's the kind of work I'm trying to market for. And so everything I do supports that brand. Yeah. Does that make sense? It's a, it's a bigger, it's a longer commitment, but that's sort of the context, the context of a message. 

[00:39:41] David: That's fundable. Somebody wants to buy that. They want to bring it into their company, but then you've got to like what you do and how you do. 

[00:39:48] Joelly: No, I love that. I mean, that's incredible advice. So I want to talk quickly before we go about virtual events. 

[00:39:54] David: Uh, you know, sorry, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[00:39:58] Joelly: We both agree that we hate virtual events. You know, we had to do it during the pandemic or during that time of our lives, we don't like to talk about now it's over with, but now people reach out to me and request me to do virtual presentations and I'm hesitant. I want to know why you don't like them, what your take is, but if you have to do a virtual presentation, what are some tips to make the experience good? 

[00:40:21] Joelly: Hold on. Make the experience good. You and for your audience. There you go.

[00:40:25] David:  Okay. First of all, you never have to. But you may choose to, and I have great respect for people who do it. This was a necessary pivot during the pandemic, right? We know there was no script for this. So we did what we had to do. I have great admiration for meeting planners who did this pivot. 

[00:40:41] David: We're going to do it online. We're doing online trade show by and large. Audiences hate it. They hate it. Now, meetings are different. What you and I are doing. We're in different countries right now. We're talking live. This is magic. This is freaking magic for my parents' generation. It's magic for you and I it's Wednesday, but multi day conferences are generally horrible. 

[00:41:03] David: I don't do them anymore. I turn them down. I just say, let me know when you're going to meet in person. A lot of people were prognosticating that the future would be hybrid or there be virtual. And what we learned was that it's really hard to sit in front of a computer for multiple days and any type of, uh, type of engagement or, or keep people's attention. 

[00:41:19] David: Okay. That said, they're still happening occasionally. And if you choose to do it and participate, it'd be good for you. I mean, it's, it's, it's a legitimate way of. Communicating and learning. I don't prefer it myself. I don't think audiences like it. My suggestion to be good at it, and here's the good news, the bar is really low, Joelly, because most people, pardon my language, suck.

[00:41:41] David: If I see one more person with palm trees behind them or the Golden Gate, Golden Gate Bridge, I am going to open a vein. It's like it's been three years. It's not funny anymore. Pretending you're on a tropical. It's not funny. It's been three years. So as a speaker, what you, what you don't want to do, if you're asked to present even short or whatever, don't look like everybody else on the screen. 

[00:42:02] David: So when you look at a screen, you see the big Brady bunch view of. You know, 50, 60 people in little squares, you got to be able to know which one the speaker is. And so what I did is I made a decision that I wasn't going to share my screen and I wasn't going to sit at my desk. And I, so I stood up and I just went against the wall. 

[00:42:20] David: I put a big 65 inch flat screen behind me and I put it at an angle so you didn't see the reflection of the lights. And I stood there and I lifted my laptop high on a stand and I presented as if I was in the front of the room. And I could stand, I could gesture back and talk about this. I could walk a little bit from side to side. 

[00:42:38] David: And as I made my things, people saying, be careful with your hands. And I'm like, use them. Just talk like you would normally talk. And I was really fortunate. I did 87 virtual presentations on a webcam in my basement, which you would never know is my basement because I built a little studio for it. But put some thought into it because you curate your background, even for, you know, look behind me and curate. 

[00:42:59] David: I've got my book strategically placed behind me. As long as you're intentional for what you do, it's the ones that look unprepared or the ones that are looking down on the camera, or they've got a window behind them and their backlit and their face is dark. So my advice is you want to do virtual. Great.

[00:43:14] David: It's great practice. Look at the camera. Don't look at the people on the screen right now. I'm talking to you, but I'm staring at the camera. I'm not looking at you. If I was looking at you, I'd be looking down here. 

[00:43:24] Joelly: I'm looking at you. It's so funny, but I can't help it. It's just, I'm looking at you while you're talking, 

[00:43:27] David: But you're not talking. 

[00:43:29] David: So it's easier to, but I do it in a way that I make eye contact with my audience because Because I look at the camera, I can see you out of the corner of my eye. I know exactly where you are, what you're doing, but, but that's part of sort of being professional. So my advice is that most people are not very good at it or they'll share their screen and they're tiny in the corner and there'll be one word on the screen for 10 minutes. 

[00:43:51] David: Like literally we can be better than that. Treat it like a conversation. You and I are having this conversation. I know I'm talking a lot, but I'm the guest. So this is what I'm doing, but, but I'm not worried about. I mean, we're inviting other people to listen into our great conversation. Same thing works in virtual presentations as well as just share what, you know, be confident in your contact and your content because you're prepared and don't worry about the superfluous things. 

[00:44:18] David: If your cat walks across the front, here's a little clue. People love that. It's just real when we're watching the, the woman was doing the weather from one of the TV stations and her kid walked in drinking from a bottle and hugged her leg while she was doing it. Is that not wonderful? That's authentic, right? 

[00:44:36] David: It humanizes us. Don't worry about being perfect. Be authentic. Teach what you know. There you go. And I never want to talk about virtual again. 

[00:44:45] Joelly: Okay. Well, that is great advice. So thank you. I hope it helps other people as much as this helped me. It's been great. Okay. Last question, David. This is one I ask all my guests. 

[00:44:56] Joelly: So David, what is your badass superpower? 

[00:44:59] David: My badass superpower is, that's a great question and you should have given me time to prepare for this. My badass superpower is. That I know why I do what I do. I don't struggle with, with an existential crisis of what's all of this about. People talk about that. 

[00:45:18] David: What they do, it's their passion. My family is my passion. My speaking is, is my business. I love what I do, but I know why I do it. I do it to afford myself. My, my passion is my five kids who are no longer kids and being able to afford. The things and the opportunities and to take my kids on special trips. 

[00:45:38] David: My 24 year old daughter just came with me to, I spoke in Barcelona and London. I said, you want to go with your dad? She's like, uh, yeah. And so the freedom to be able to, even with a lifestyle of being able to go to be at my kids, all their sporting events and their, their parent teacher conferences and all of those as well. 

[00:45:56] David: So I chose the right profession. So I think my superpowers that I just, I have just great peace. I'm a great piece with, with my motivations for everything that I do. And, uh, I don't know. How's that for an answer?

[00:46:09] Joelly:  That's your answer. So it's good. There's no right or wrong.

[00:46:11] David: And the beard and the hair. 

[00:46:14] Joelly: You got, you got great hair.

[00:46:15] David: And it's flowy. I have flowy hair. Maybe that's my answer. Okay. Sorry. Take that back. My hair.

[00:46:22] Joelly: I love it. Well, this has been so fun. It's gone by so quickly. I always love talking to you so much. I know you've said it a few times, but let's say it again. If people want to connect with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

[00:46:33] David: Just look me up at davidavrin.com. A V R I N all the social media platforms as well. It's just David Avrin everywhere. LinkedIn. It's therealdavidavrin. Instagram is therealdavidavrin. A lot of fake ones, whole other catfish show for another day, but yeah, connect with me. 

[00:46:50] David: This, this is what I do. I have a good time doing it. And then I have, I have fun with some of the, uh, the social media posts as well. And TikTok and others. 

[00:46:57] Joelly: And I would say, read two of the books that I read were why customers leave, and it's not who, you know, it's who knows you how to raise your profits by raising your profile. 

[00:47:06] Joelly: That was the first introduction to you. And that's, that was 

[00:47:09] David: And I'll tell you, that's like the oldest one. I think there was a chapter on mice. 

[00:47:14] Joelly: I know, but you know what? It's still extremely relevant today. It really is. And I, and I referenced it online.

[00:47:20] David:  I appreciate that a lot. All this stuff online. 

[00:47:21] David: The Morning Huddle is my, is my newest one. It's called The Morning Huddle. Powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up and win more business. No more self promotional. Joelly, it has been a little slice of heaven. I laughed. I cried. It became a part of me. All right. Thank you, my love.

[00:47:35] Joelly: Thank you again. And we will definitely stay in touch. All right. Bye. 

[00:47:41] David: Thank you. 

[00:47:44] Joelly: And there you have it. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and hopefully you learned a few things to help you with your branding. Branding Matters is a work in progress, so please remember to rate it and leave a review on whatever platform you listen to podcasts. 

[00:47:59] Joelly: And if you'd like help building your brand, whether it's through badass merch or you just need some tips to get you started, feel free to send me a private message and I would love to help you out. You can message me on my website at brandingmatters.ca. I promise you I reply to all my messages. So thanks again, and until next time, here's to all you badasses out there.