Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Wine News: Why aren't there more female winemakers, iffy wine labels, a rough vintage for WA and a Cellar Door tasting fee debate
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This wine news we Deep Dive with guest Tash Dale from Australian Vintage to dissect why only 20% of Australia's winemakers are female, despite equal gender in university wine courses. We ask Tash - what can the industry do about it?
Headlines:
0.56 - Four Corners investigates misleading claims on wine labels
6.40 - WA have had a horrific vintage following their hottest summer on record
10.32 - Winos debate Cellar Door tasting fees in Australia
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Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel . We are here to help you navigate the world of wine . I'm Mel Gilcrist , joined by Master of Wine Meg Brodtman , and this is our second wine news episode . Welcome , I know it's exciting . There's a lot going on, there's a lot to talk about , so I'm glad we started this .
Meg BrodtmannActually it's kind of fun . Well , I enjoy it because I read all this stuff and I've got no one to talk to .
Mel GilcristWe're very self-important . We think our opinion is so great . You have to listen .
Meg BrodtmannIt's not necessarily opinion . It's just spreading the news , well it's like , and then offering our commentary on it .
Mel GilcristWell , we introduced the news for our commentary , but let us kick off . . and also thank you for your feedback . It's really good to hear that you guys enjoy listening to it . So first one we have to talk about is Four Corners Investigating Misleading , private Label Wines . So this one
Misleading wine labels
Mel Gilcristis about there was a Four Corners episode, what a month or two ago , yeah , about a month ago , yeah , and it was about private label wine . So it's about , like , the big supermarket players basically that own the private label wines . But there was something specific that happened in the episode and it was that the reporter found a wine that kind of implied that it was from Barossa . It used a classic Barossa story , but it was actually from Southeast Australia . Yes , the funniest thing in the episode , meg , was that he like flew to the Barossa to prove it . But I'm like that was so unnecessary . Did you think that ? Wow , why did you find ?
Meg Brodtmannthat it's because the image on the label was of the churches in Light Pass , I think , and so it was to show that the image clearly had an association with the Barossa . Yeah , barossa was mentioned in the label , but the wine was .
Mel GilcristI don't know if Barossa was mentioned in the label . It was definitely on the website .
Meg BrodtmannOkay , on the website . So there was a story of two feuding churches or something .
Mel GilcristTwo feuding priests , that created two churches .
Meg BrodtmannBut classic Barossa , you see the churches all the time on Barossa stuff Exactly , and so the association in the consumer's mind , or the customer's mind when they were buying it , was that it was from the Barossa . But it did clearly state that it's from Southeast Australia . Yes , it's like many well , not many years ago , but sort of in the early 2000s , when Cloudy Bay was just reaming it in terms of sales , so many Cloudy Bay-like labels from Sauvignon Blanc producers globally like I saw them from California , I saw them from Chile were around to give that hint that it was from it's . You know the Mind Plays Tricks Association . But they did everything legal . But I do believe it was misleading .
Mel GilcristSo that is the question . We got an Instagram message saying seriously , is this legal , like , how is this allowed ? And when you look at it , so why don't we talk a bit about label integrity laws ? What are the three main things that , like we actually have to do with the ?
Meg Brodtmannlabel . So label integrity laws is so that what you state on the label is true and you have to back it up with facts . So you have to have traceability in the winery . So there's a thing called LIP Label Integrity Program and we have to provide LIPs for every wine that we produce . So if you state that it is from AGI a geographical indication it needs to have grapes from 85% from that region . 15% can come from anywhere else . If you state that it is vintage 2024 , it has to come from 85% of that vintage .
Meg BrodtmannIf you state that it is Cabernet Sauvignon , it has to be 85% Cabernet Sauvignon . And the reason they give you that 15% wriggle room is because , say , you're a small producer and you've only got two barrels of Cabernet and one of Merlot , you need to top them with some Merlot . So as long as you are keeping a track of that , you don't have to state it on the label . If it's less than 15% . Once it goes over 15% , then you have to state it on the label . So you would have to call it in case Cabernet Merlot . So for vintage , variety and GI region it has to be 85% . So they haven't broken any laws because they've said the GI geographical indication is Southeast Australia , but the implication on the label is that it is a Brosson story . Yeah , so as a result of that , they withdrew the wine .
Mel GilcristIs that correct ? No , no , they just changed the website . Okay . So the problem was they didn't actually use the word Brosson on the label . They used it on the website and I think in a business , when you're doing the label , there are so many eyes across it , legals across it , Like you get so many layers of approval because it can't be changed , Whereas people are way more lax about the website and I feel like what might have happened is they got a copywriter to write the story and they just didn't think or check it twice . I don't believe and you might feel free to contradict me , but I don't believe they set out to really be that deceptive , Like I don't think they would have planned to use the word brosser on the website if as many people were across it as were on the label .
Meg BrodtmannI agree . I think they have planned to be deceptive by using Like a little bit deceptive .
Meg BrodtmannYes , they've tried to influence people's minds from where it's from . Yes , but they're not deceiving the customer in any way , shape or form On the website . Yes , and I agree with you Because we have label integrity program and we're legally bound to do it . You can have your license to sell wine stripped from you if you don't adhere to it , and people have had their export licenses . There have been three wineries in probably the last five years that have had their export licenses removed because they didn't have any integrity in their labels . So we are , as you said , three sets of eyes goes over your label make sure it's got all the mandatories on it and fulfils . We check the LIP and make sure it's all true On our website . You're probably right . I mean , it could have been a chat GPT thing . Totally , you know , there we go , I mean it could have been a chat , gpt thing , totally , you know , there we go yes .
Mel GilcristAnd these private label places have , like you know , dan's or Cole's or whatever they have so many people , brand managers . They don't just manage one brand , they manage like five or six brands and they're working at a really high capacity . I believe that the website was probably a misstep , but that's taken down now . So your question , the question that came in , was is it legal Technically by label integrity ? It is , but it is misleading by consumer law , so like if ACCC wanted to check it out , they might have something to say about it . But I think either way it's kind of unethical . I agree .
Rough vintage for WA
Mel GilcristYeah , I agree .
Meg BrodtmannYeah , but you know they haven't broken the law . No , as the law stands .
Mel GilcristOkay , so now , moving on to our next headline , western Australian wineries have recorded the worst harvest , they reckon , in years , because , even though we haven't seemed to feel it over here , it's been bloody hot over there , like the hottest summer on record for them . So how I mean ? I don't even understand how it's been so hot there , but not for us . But then how is that going to impact things ?
Meg BrodtmannOkay , so we'll start with why you haven't noticed that it's been hot in WA . It's the other side of the country .
Tash DaleI really thought that it would just .
Meg BrodtmannNo , because we are on the Pacific side Right and El Nino and La Nina , a Pacific Ocean phenomenon . We have been at the tail end of La Nina , so we have had a relatively cool summer and a moderate autumn . Yeah , margaret River has been hit by the hottest summer on record . I saw one YMAC , and I don't know who it was , saying he doesn't know how long Margaret River , if this continues as an annual thing , how long Margaret River can be a sustainable wine-growing region , heartbreaking , devastating . They started the earliest , so they started in early January , which is kind of unheard of Because they are on the coast . It's moderated by the sea , so they have a warm , moderate climate . Yeah , a little bit like Bordeaux , but not as much rain , a little bit warmer . But this year they just got hammered with days and days . I think they were saying that they can handle , you know , three or four days of over 35 , but they had seven , eight days of 35 degrees and it didn't really drop . Because you are by the ocean , you don't have that extreme of temperature .
Meg BrodtmannI saw pictures of grapes just shriveled . They look like sultanas on the vine , oh God . And when it's that hot the sugar accumulation is really rapid , so you have to get everything off as fast as possible , but you obviously don't necessarily have the space in your winery to get everything off at the same time . Alternatively , the vines can actually shut down so they stop ripening , oh my God . And all that happens is they start shriveling . So the leaf has a little hole in it that lets water out . So it pulls like capillary action you know the little red dye they did with the celery in primary school . So one's open at one end . You've got a hole which is the roots at the other end , so it's drawing water up and this hole will close to stop losing water and that shuts the vine down . So they've just had a horrific , horrific year , while the rest of Australia has had a pretty good vintage .
Mel GilcristAnd like we've spoken before about how you can say like bad vintage quotes . But if you're talking to like a business , someone who owns a winery , they might say bad vintage means they've got less grapes , so they're going to make less money , but in reality it could be really high quality wine . So it's like a win for consumer but not for the business .
Meg BrodtmannBut in this case it sounds like you're saying it's a lose for everyone . Well , I think that probably the early ripening varieties , they may , because they started so early . They may have just got them off . It would depend on how much space they had in the winery , whether their staff had turned up , you know , because we get in extra people during vintage . Yeah , they may not have started . Yeah , because it did start so early . Um , winemakers are incredible alchemists . They can pull a rabbit out of a hat , even in bad years . But those that they would have crop losses because of shrivel and drying of the bunches and so they will be lower yields which , as you said , can translate to fabulous wine . But in terms of being able to make money , it could be tough .
Mel GilcristSo we'll have to wait and see how the
Debate over Cellar Door tasting fees
Mel Gilcristwines turn out for that vintage . And the last thing that I wanted to chat about today was so one of the like an influencer in the wine space , travelling Corkscrew , so her name is Casey and she normally just talks about these are the wines I'm trying and it's all kind of you know , it's like nice stuff . But she actually started a very in-depth , interesting , kind of heated discussion about Saladore . So she put up a question saying Saladore tastings , are you willing to pay for them and do they need to be redeemed ? And it was so interesting how many people outraged at the idea of paying for a tasting and saying if it's not redeemed , that's crazy . So , meg , where do you stand ?
Meg BrodtmannOf course you have to pay for a tasting . Imagine everyone came into your tasting room and they bought a bottle of wine $30 . You have had a person standing with you for over an hour doing a tasting at $30 an hour .
Mel GilcristZero sum game .
Meg BrodtmannOkay , so you haven't bought anything , you haven't paid for the tasting . They then , after you leave , have to wash glasses , polish glasses , restock fridges , tidy your table . So we're getting into negative , negative , negative , negative , negative .
Mel GilcristThat's just the person that's before . We even talk about paying for the product .
Meg BrodtmannAnd that's if you were charging $30 for a bottle of wine . A lot of people are charging $15 a bottle of wine , but the cellar door people are still getting paid $30 an hour . You do that on a Sunday . You double that rate , yep , and we don't double what we charge you .
Meg BrodtmannYes , tasting fees are fair . We have to keep the lights on . We have to polish our glasses , we have to restock our fridges , we have to pay our staff . It is part of regional , local economy . Yeah , and your $15 fee for four pours .
Meg BrodtmannAnd we have to keep the pours limited because we legally can't give you more than one tasting , one serve of alcohol . This is what the Victorian government has instilled , so we're limited in how much we can pour . If you choose to have a glass of wine after that , then that's on you , but to charge that is to cover the cost of the person and all the back end that has to be done to bring that tasting to you , plus pay for the stock of the wine in your glass that you're drinking . It doesn't come free . No , you know , it just blows my mind Now a lot of wineries I would say almost most that charge a fee , then usually , if you buy a bottle for takeaway , you will be refunded your tasting fee Even that though I know People in the comments were I'm sorry if I get people offside here , but I don't care but like the entitlement to say , oh , as long as the cost is redeemed .
Mel GilcristIt's like , why should it be redeemed If you go to a brewery and buy a paddle , a tasting paddle , you don't get that redeemed ? On beer , yeah .
Meg BrodtmannDo people think that the wine that's been poured into their glass is somehow free ? Yeah , we are paying tax on that . Yeah , and we have no financial benefit if we don't charge a tasting fee . Back in the day , when people didn't charge tasting fees , the taxation system was different . So we didn't pay on tasting stock . So we effectively had free wine to give away . True that , that was true . That changed in the 90s and as a result of that , we were now paying for that bottle of wine . Yeah , so we had to redeem that cost somehow , and I saw that is such good context for people to understand actually I saw comments of .
Meg BrodtmannWell , what are cellar doors for ? Not to give away free booze , I'm sorry Cellar doors , they very rarely make a profit .
Mel GilcristYes , exactly .
Meg BrodtmannProfitability at a cellar door that it's a good cellar door . Maybe 10% . They very , very , very rarely . Labor costs are incredibly high . We are one-on-one with people for at least an hour . Yep , that is expensive , it is , and they can't sort of rotate between the number of groups . Some people do , some do table side service , where they're rotating between groups , but if you're standing in front of a bar , they are your customers . It's experiential . You're paying for the experience of learning about wine . We're also giving you education . None of this comes free . We educate our staff . We bring them in and pay them to do training . We feed them usually during that training and we pay them to do training so that you have a great experience . If I came into your restaurant and said not sure that I like your food , can I just have a free sample ? Yes , like , yes , let me try it .
Meg BrodtmannI don't want to pay for the sample , though yeah , I might buy it , but I might not Please pay for the sample though yeah , I might buy it , but I might not Please people . This is a business . Treat it as either a wine bar mentality or a restaurant or even a wine shop . Go into Dan's and say I want to try that wine , but I don't want to pay for it because I don't know if I like it and I may not buy it . What are they going to say to you ? We are a retail and a hospitality outlet in Cellar Doors and it just blows my mind that we are giving away free product in the off chance that someone may buy one . And , to be honest , for me , Cellar Doors are experiential . We want our guests to have the best time possible to walk away , not necessarily with our brand front and foremost , but having had a really enjoyable time . That's the most important thing .
Mel GilcristAnd like I would love to reiterate that wineries don't make much money . There are really not many wine businesses in the world that are just like rolling in it .
Meg BrodtmannMargins are so low .
Mel GilcristIt's so low . We're struggling .
Meg BrodtmannWe are not the ones to be giving out handouts and it was interesting that on the feedback on that comment I saw some smaller wineries saying , oh , we don't charge . And I'm just like oh my God . I don't know all of these wineries , but my guess is that that's the mum and the dad , or the owners themselves , working seven days a week . So they're not paying people .
Mel GilcristBut it's like do they have to do that ? Because I was blown away by 150 comments and many of them were people saying I don't want to pay for tastings . So there's just like a cultural change . There's just something . We need to change people's minds about what it is . It's been like that for ages now . I still think people expect something different than the direction we're trying to go .
Meg BrodtmannWow , Well , I don't know any business really that gives away free stuff . Anything else that's not in the line that still exists . Well , true , that continues to own us a business . And cellar doors , just so you know , very rarely . We always say we don't expect cellar door to make money . It would be great if cellar door turned a profit . But they don't , because they're labour intensive and product intensive . We don't that stock we have to pay for .
Mel GilcristAnd that's across the board . That's small ones , that's small wineries , that's big wineries , like these Saladors , they pull really quite small margins . But thank you , casey , for starting that discussion . It was really enlightening . And I will say for the record , so we're not tarnishing your name , she agrees with us as well I can . That's good .
Mel GilcristSo that's it for our headlines . We're about to jump into our deep dive . We are talking to
Gender equality in wine
Mel GilcristTash from Australian Vintage about gender equality . Tash from Australian Vintage about gender equality . So Tash is the Director of People and Culture at Australian Vintage . Thank you , tash , for coming on board . Thank you for having me Very excited to be here . So we wanted to talk to you , tash , because we were talking about gender inequality . We've just had International Women's Day has just passed , and there's also been a few kind of stats come out about the wine industry . So it has come out that , although almost half of graduates from viticulture and winemaking are female , only what 23% of winemakers end up women and only 18% viticulturalists . So you , your people in culture , culture , this is what you work in and it sounds like Australian Vintage is doing quite a good job . So what is the problem in the industry and what can we be doing to fix it ?
Tash Daleyeah . So I think it's yeah , it's really interesting , also sad and disappointing as well , I think . Um around these stats , I'm know really proud to sit here and say that our winemaking team , which is , you know , highly operational we're quite a large commercial winery is currently at 60-40 in terms of females , and our head winemaker , you know , is a strong female herself . So really really proud to say that , I think .
Tash DaleI think there's a lot of challenges , um , I think , on the operational side of the business especially , um , it's a demanding role , especially within harvest and vintage and , let's be honest , when those grapes need to be picked and processed , um , work-life balance is in front of mind .
Tash DaleUm , and our amazing winemakers know that I want to do a perfectionistic , amazing job , which they do , and so I think that that really is a real life challenge , um around work-life balance , obviously , especially if you know you've got a family or you're pregnant . It's also a physically demanding role with long hours , and then I guess there's the practical side of things If you're pregnant or breastfeeding , you know drinking is not recommended either . So I do think that becomes a challenge as well . I do think that becomes a challenge as well . But for me and for Australian Vintage . The strategy that we've had in place is holistic . It's not been an overnight whoa quick , let's hire loads of female winemakers at all . It's been really natural and organic , based on some of the actions that we've put in place , and I would love to see that become , you know , more widely normalised in the industry to encourage , you know , more females in the space .
Meg BrodtmannSo what actions have you put in place ? So say , you have women working for you that have got a four-year-old and a two-year-old and one on the way potentially . What can you do during vintage to what are you doing during vintage to allow them to be sane ?
Tash DaleYeah . So I think , first and foremost , I think it's about those women feeling comfortable , that they can speak up and say I need to go , who in this team can support me ? Who's the leader that I know I can fall back on ? Because ultimately , it isn't just about , you know , working in vintage and working all the hours . So I think creating an environment where women feel like they can talk about their responsibilities outside of work and still thrive in that career , I think , has been really , really important for us and that's been an educational piece and a learning piece as well and a huge shift . Um , and creating a truly flexible environment where , if people need to come in earlier and leave earlier , take some time back , they can . Um , we also have got a generous parental leave package as well , which encourages people to take , you know , a long period of time off . How joy , how long 26 weeks for a primary carer that's oh wow .
Mel GilcristDo you have anything for secondary carer ?
Tash Daleyes , we've currently got four weeks for secondary carer um and we're reviewing that at the moment and we make sure that if you then , as the primary take , and it's not genderized either , so , um , you know , it's not kind of like you're a female , you're having the baby , you're the primary carer , um , so it , you know , it really is based on who is taking primary care um of the child at the time . So , yeah , I think , creating that environment where women feel comfortable to say I need to go , I've got to go you know , and they're not going to be penalised for it and they can fall back on the team around them is really important .
Meg BrodtmannAnd do you find that filters down to the team ? I mean , it's not just within that leadership role .
Mel GilcristIt's not just like the corporate office .
Meg BrodtmannYeah , it goes down to to you know everyone on the bottling line and that they're as supportive of their absolutely , for example , going home early . There's no sort of resentment or no , no , absolutely .
Tash DaleAnd look , we're also realistic about . There are huge differences between the flexibility that you can have in a corporate office , where you're sitting on Microsoft Teams or Zoom all day , compared to if you're a shift worker on a bottling line and with all of our policies we try to be really really fair and consistent .
Tash DaleBut we do have to have a little bit of nuances around that to make sure it is fair and that we keep the business going . But yeah , we've really tried to filter that all the way through , so it kind of has a touch point at every level in the organisation .
Meg BrodtmannAnd during vintage , what were the sort of shifts for , say , an assistant winemaker who may have kids ? Be what are you ?
Mel Gilcristdoing .
Meg BrodtmannAre you writing 12-hour shifts , 8 eight hour shifts ? How do you run it ?
Tash DaleYeah , so it depends . So there's flexibility around that . So it does completely depend on , you know , whether they're no and low white red kind of what peak they're in , but they yeah , they are long shifts but we make sure that people get back the time in lieu . And something that we've recently implemented as well which , with our chief winemaker , jamie , was actually his suggestion outside of our engagement survey results is that for those winemakers that you know do work the longest stints over vintage , they actually have a flexible working for the rest of the year pretty much . So , you know , they can do a four-day week for the rest of the year outside of vintage , which has been really really well received , especially for working parents who can go wow , this is amazing . I've now got this extra day back and I'm not financially , you know , impacted as well .
Meg BrodtmannBut I think also for people any parent really to do vintage with children , if they are the kind of primary carer , they need to have a support network behind them and I think to a degree . I'm sure you would have seen the article with Rachel Triggs a couple of weeks ago now , maybe in February , saying that she actually gave up winemaking because she felt she couldn't do it when she had children during vintage . And she makes a comment without a supportive partner . Now I don't know whether she didn't have a partner or that partner wasn't supportive , but either way she didn't feel that she could be a mum and a winemaker during vintage at the same time . I'm married to a winemaker . I am a winemaker . I'm not winemaking now , but this has only been the last three years and I know the amount of fights that we get into about that primary care of who's picking up the kids , who's doing this . You rely so much on your family network to support you during that time .
Mel GilcristI will jump in because we've discussed this in the past , but in case anyone isn't across the back catalogue , hours for vintage can be 12 hours overnight .
Meg BrodtmannAt least six days a week , usually seven .
Mel GilcristYou never know Like it's really hard to plan for , like grapes can come in any time . There's so many factors .
Meg BrodtmannMachine breaks down . You're stuck there for another four hours .
Mel GilcristYou need to be available what like almost all the time .
Meg BrodtmannIt's like being on call 24 hours a day . So at the moment my husband leaves at 5.30 in the morning and gets home about 10 o'clock at night , and then some nights everything goes wrong , yeah , and so you have to be there and it's allowing that flexibility . You know , when it's hailing grapes . I don't know what your vintage was like this year , but we had a very compressed vintage .
Meg BrodtmannSo really it started mid-February with Pinot and Chardonnay and did not stop for two weeks it was just raining grapes , and I think a lot of regions in Australia had that , and so that requires you to work even more hours , because you can't stop the grapes coming in .
Tash DaleNo , and I think as well , winemakers by nature are perfectionistic and really , really care and want to do an amazing job and have an amazing outcome of beautiful wines that taste amazing . So you've also got that on top of it that you've got these great teams who will be there all the hours . So I think it's also that encouraging side of things and the team environment is so important .
Mel GilcristThis is an interesting point you've raised , though , because this is something Meg and I have discussed in the past that that culture of oh my God , I work so many hours . It can also become like a badge that they wear , like look how many I didn't sleep last night , like almost trying to out . It can be quite a blokey culture , which is actually why what you said , and I think that you can put in lots of policies and things , but I actually think that implementing a better culture and getting rid of that culture of I did so many hours , is so important .
Meg BrodtmannRealistically , there is no reason why vintage couldn't be broken down into three eight-hour shifts a day , or even nine hours . So you've got that . One hour , yeah , but culturally , yeah , it's so embedded , yeah , in the industry that it has to be 12 hours , and winemakers , like my husband , hero complex , has to be there for every single great that comes in . And I'm just like your team , know how to process .
Mel GilcristYes , like you need to trust the team .
Meg BrodtmannBut , he is old school . Old school , you know , and it's culturally in him . Yeah , and I think that we need to start training . From when we have young people coming through , we start changing so that , when they become leaders in the industry , they have seen a better way and there is a better way . That doesn't have to be , yeah , this way , but the the common refrain is well , you can't change it during vintage .
Mel GilcristOh , yeah , yeah then what are you going to change it ?
Tash DaleI think as well , for you know young females in that environment . You know , if you want to do well and you want to thrive in your career , you look to these . You know senior , experienced winemakers who are coming in and doing all these hours and you've got to be there and think , okay , well , I need to be like that . So I think definitely the cultural piece is just huge .
Mel GilcristAnd I wanted to ask . So just get your your opinion on this . Because you are a bigger company , you have these resources . To be at like 26 weeks parental leave is crazy , but in wine there are so many smaller places and you know there are fewer big ones that have these resources , so do you think there's anything these smaller places can be doing to help equal this balance ?
Tash DaleYeah , and I think this is a really difficult one because you know we've only had this benefit in place a few years now and before that I would say we did fit into one of those , you know , smaller traditional wine companies who didn't have all these benefits and flexibility and everything . And from my perspective I think , yes , it is expensive when someone goes off on parental leave and it's a burden on the business . But if you've got a really good employee that you want to keep and harness , you're going to get the repayment of pay by the time you've , especially in you in . You know , a technical we're based at . Our winemaking team is based out of Mildura , so it's regional and for us to find .
Tash DaleYou know , sometimes we end up sponsoring people from overseas . So you know that's 10 grand in itself and then you relocate someone over . I think the time , effort , training that it then takes to , you know , bring someone on because you know , and it's proven , that if people aren't supported through that parental leave time , they don't want to go back to that business . So my advice more widely , I think , is look if you can have a buffer and budget for it . You really do get the return on investment if you support people through that period .
Meg BrodtmannYou do , I mean the cost of retraining someone new in that position is your 26 weeks leave , basically ? And retaining people you know human resources are your most precious resources , basically . They are your golden oil , yeah , and I think they should be treated as such , particularly in regional , I think , some . You know , if you're in that sort of head office , more corporate role and you're in a you know city , it's easier for mobility , for people to move . But if you're in that regional area , it is hard to attract people and keep them , and so you probably do have to work a little bit harder and I was interested to see that .
Mel GilcristUm , self-awareness coaching is something that you do . Can you tell us a bit about that and maybe do you have any advice for people out there that work in the industry or like for ?
Tash Dalewomen out there . How can they be ?
Mel Gilcristadvocating for themselves .
Tash DaleYeah , definitely . So we use a few different tools , but the one that has really kind of shifted our culture and been amazing is called the LSI tool , so Lifestyles Inventory , and it's basically a 360 tool for leaders . So you fill out about yourself and then you ask a group of other people to fill out for you and you get back two different wheels of colors all around constructive behaviors basically in leadership , and we've sort of built our whole behavioral framework around that and it's a complete , you know , self-awareness tool . It's really quite hard-hitting , um , especially if you've got some development areas , um . So we , that is something that we've used and our ceo , craig , came in and was a real ambassador for it .
Tash DaleMy advice for other businesses out there is , if you're going to do something like this , that people have really got to take the food back on board . Yeah , you have to go from the top and it can't just be a hr , people and culture initiative fluffy thing . You know it needs to be . You know , ceo md board led to say we're doing this , we're going through a cultural change . If you know , if you're not on the bus , get off the bus . Um , because this is what we want to do and we want to change the way we do things . So , yeah , that has , that has really supported us in kind of transforming our culture and what was the trigger to start cultural change ?
Meg Brodtmannwas there a trigger ? Was trigger or just an accumulation of time ?
Tash DaleYeah . So Craig joined five years ago , our new CEO , and he really wanted to . You know , at the time we were more , it felt like we were more of an old school wine company . You know , we didn't have a people pillar on our wider business strategy and we were much more traditional in our processes and the way we did things . So he really , really wanted to drive an inclusive culture and say , like I actually think we can be , you know , one of the best in the industry around this . You know , little old Australian vintage , so let's do it . So it was really him coming in and wanting to , yeah , go through this cultural transformation . Not that we needed , you know , it wasn't bad before but he was saying , you know , from a competitive advantage point of view , we've got some amazing people . I want them to , you know , be treated the best they can be . So that was really really the trigger , um , about five years ago , and we've been on that journey ever since yeah and your role .
Meg BrodtmannSo you're director of people and culture . Yeah , what is your background to ? Yeah , are you a psychologist or I don't know what is your . I nearly did psychology . I think you have an element of it in in your job . There would have to be yeah yeah , um .
Tash DaleSo I know I studied um HR . I was very lucky that when I was at school I had an amazing like business studies teacher . I'm from the UK , obviously , if you can tell from my accent Sometimes I don't know if I sound a bit .
Meg BrodtmannAussie or not ? When you first started , I thought is she a Kiwi ? Oh really .
Tash DaleNo , from the UK . So , yeah , I studied HR at uni . I , yeah , had a really good . I was weighing up between psychology and business studies . Actually , my business studies teacher said to me you'd be really good in HR . You know it's changing up , it's kind of getting really interesting . It's not just about hiring and firing . So that's the route that I went down all the way from the start . Route that I went down all the way from the start . I worked in a very operational environment in the UK , in utilities , in water , and did my graduate scheme there . And then we moved to Australia for more sunshine . So I'm from the north of England , from quite a regional area where the sun doesn't shine for much of the year at all . So we we came over here just thinking , oh well , we'll see how it is in Australia and get a couple of temporary jobs and travel the world . Yeah , seven and a half years later we're still here . So , yeah , my background is in the drinks industry .
Meg BrodtmannBut I very much enjoy being in the drinks industry .
Tash DaleI think we need to be bringing in people , because a lot of things .
Mel GilcristA hundred percent .
Meg BrodtmannAustralian Vintage started from a small family business and has accumulated other small family businesses along the way . Oh yeah , maybe name the brands . So the Australian Vintage has got Nepenthe Tempest 2 , which everyone would know about because we love that Grinnevallinger .
Mel GilcristWe talked about the Grinnevld .
Meg BrodtmannOh , and that and Sonica the other day , anyway , and McGuigan's . So there are a number of A bunch of others , but they're the big ones . Yeah , they're the big ones , they're the ones that you probably know , and so .
Tash DaleWe won't mention Passion Pop .
Meg BrodtmannOh .
Mel GilcristI love Passion Pop . We love Passion Pop . We Speak very kindly about Passion Pop , don't you ? Oh , wow .
Meg BrodtmannThe Passion Pop aside , and so they would have come from , you know , had the winemakers probably started the business his dad was a grower , whatever . And changing businesses that are growing so that they have HR departments and they start thinking about this is really important and we need , I think , a generational change . Oh yeah , at the top , you know we were just discussing before how you know , rachel Triggs has left Wine Australia . She would have been the generational change . She's gone . Who else is going to start making changes with our marketing and lobby , and it's across the whole industry ?
Mel GilcristAnd I guess , another question for you , Tash if we're talking about what companies can do for this change , is there something that women can be doing ? Is it true that women don't ask for pay rises as much as men do , as an example ? Are there things that women can be doing to help that balance themselves ?
Tash DaleYeah , yes , I think it definitely is true and you know , I've got an amazing people and culture team here who really advocate for the amazing women that we've got in this business . We've made sure we've got really fair processes in place , which is how we've ended up closing our gender pay gap . But I think I think for women , if you are someone who's got imposter syndrome or struggles with that confidence side of things or thinks I'm not as confident as the guy who sits next to me in the same role , find an ally . You find someone that you can really trust in , whether that's mentorship , coaching . You know I , when I first came into this exec role , I was a lot younger than most of my male peers and a lot less experienced , and that , on top of imposter syndrome , I was just what am I doing here ?
Mel Gilcristbut you ?
Tash Daleknow , part of my success has been some of the amazing men in the executive team who I've taken it upon myself to go . You know , can you mentor me ? Like I actually want to be a point where I'm as confident as you and I'm asking for as much as you . So I think you knowising it and not just being like , oh no , actually I'm worth less than them , recognising it and , yeah , finding an ally or someone that you see that has all those confidence levels that you want and I think , calling it out and working alongside , yeah , Tricky for women winemakers when only 23% of the winemakers are women .
Meg BrodtmannIt's like a chicken and the egg sort of thing .
Mel GilcristBut I think Tash is saying , though , that she's still finding that in men . Yes , true , true , true .
Tash DaleMaybe we need to start a winemaking female mentoring program . There you go .
Meg BrodtmannWell , we actually Yarra Valley Women in Wine . We were talking about doing that and then COVID hit . We're going to bring over just winemakers from New Zealand that were just about to make their next move and do a swap with someone from the Yarra so that we could promote them through the scheme , although the Yarra has a higher proportion of female winemakers in a lot of regions .
Mel GilcristYeah , well , we'd better wrap it up , tash , but thank you so much for joining us today . It was fabulous .
Tash DaleThis was a really good conversation . No , thank you , I've really enjoyed the chat .
Mel GilcristI think it's good to hear what you're doing because it sounds best in practice . I haven't heard of any other wineries or businesses in the wine industry that are quite at that level , so it's awesome to hear about best practice and have a chat about what ways an industry can be doing better .
Meg BrodtmannYeah , and an Australian-led company . You know that's making these huge strides in what is a bit of a fusty old industry , so it's really good to see Congratulations .
Tash DaleGreat . Thank you , lovely to meet you both .
Meg BrodtmannIt's quite interesting . Hey , it is interesting the thing that it's good to see someone actually doing something . Yeah , because I read in Australian Grape and Wine , wine Australia that we want diversity , equality and inclusivity as a pillar , and then I don't see any change . Yeah , and there's not any change for a reason because they're not making that cultural change that Tash talked about and that's got to be right at the beginning .
Meg BrodtmannYes , I completely agree , and so we need to be doing that at our universities , grass level , before the winemaking and viticulturists . That it's just embedded in you . Maybe with Gen Zs ? Gen Zs has got a much better ability to say no and draw a line , who knows . But that was fantastic and well done to them .
Tash DaleYeah seriously .
Meg BrodtmannIt's great to see , you know , what could be viewed as a fusty old company that's actually really modernising and thinking with such a super .
Mel GilcristAnd that it's coming from the top , that it's coming from the CEO , is so important because , you know , what we actually see so often is these people in HR and these culture departments exist and they try so hard to advocate , but if CEO isn't on board , if the person at the top isn't on board , nothing's going to happen . So that's really cool . Good on them . Thanks , tash , for joining us . That is all for this week . We will be back with you next week , but until then , enjoy your next glass of wine . Drink well .
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