There Aren't Two Sides To Democracy (with Jen Psaki)

This week we're excited to be joined by the one and only Jen Psaki! Jen isn’t just a former White House Press Secretary, she’s also the host of Inside With Jen Psaki and the author of a new book called Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World.

Jen sat down with Rachel and Jasmine last month to talk about what it was like to work in the White House under Presidents Obama and Biden, how suburban women will affect this year's election, and how there simply aren't two sides to democracy. She also shares the best advice she's ever gotten and her favorite character on The West Wing!

Whether we're talking about the fall of Roe, Trump's authoritarian comments in TIME Magazine, or Republicans in Congress voting against cancer research so they don't give Biden a "win," we have to remember the stakes of this year's election. Things may feel difficult and divisive right now, but there's one crucial thing that unites us: democracy.

If you’re looking for the perfect Mother’s Day gift for your mom (or any awesome woman in your life), Red Wine & Blue has you covered! You can check out our brand-new shirts, mugs, totes, and stickers, and there are still a few Toast to Joy champagne flutes available too. Or you can donate to the Arizona Freedom Trust in honor of a mom in your life.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 5, Episode 4

Jasmine Cark: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine: And you're listening to the Suburban Women Problem. This week, we are so excited to share our interview with Jen Psaki. Jen isn't just a former White House press secretary, she's also the host of Inside with Jen Psaki and the author of a new book called Say More. Rachel and I got to talk to her about what it was like to work in the White House under both Obama and Biden and the role that suburban women will play in this year's election. 

But before we get to that, what have we been talking about in our group chat? 

Amanda: Oh man. I am a big fan of Hakeem Jeffries, in general, however, I loved his comment about just pointing out that if Roe v. Wade can fall, anything can fall, right? So if you are concerned about, like, fill in the blank– social security, healthcare, Medicaid, Medicare, any of those programs – those can also fall. Like fundamental things to our democracy and fundamental things to our social safety net, which by the way, when we don't have a good social safety net means women have to do more. If we're concerned about any of these things, we need to be very worried right now that they could fall. 

Jasmine: And I think it's really important for us to make sure that people really get that, because I think sometimes people are, I wouldn't say single issue voters, but they have their thing. They have the thing that gets them to the polls. Some people are just like, I'm going to vote no matter what, but there are some people that are like, no, I really care about this one thing. And I think if that one thing is safe, they might not understand how related the fall of Roe is to the thing that they actually care about.

But the truth is, we are watching the Supreme Court, which let's be clear, the majority is right leaning. And we are watching them pretty systematically start chipping away at things that we thought would always be there. And so, Hakeem Jeffries is right. Don't get comfortable and think that the thing that you care about isn't in jeopardy just because it's not being talked about today.

I know some people on the right that made those decisions when voting for Donald Trump, the first time they pretty much said, “I don't like the guy. I think he's bombastic and obnoxious, but he might have the opportunity to appoint a Supreme Court Justice. And so I would rather that be a Republican than a Democrat.” We have to start thinking strategically in these ways as well. 

Amanda: And I think we also need to give space for people to have more than one issue and maybe an issue that's most important to them. Because a lot of the issues that are most important to a person have to do with their direct experience. Like they have directly had experience with healthcare. For example, having a loved one get cancer and needing to be, have access to, you know, the affordable care act and healthcare. And I think it is okay for that to be their most important issue because of what they've experienced and dealt with. 

And I think we have to be a big tent party that realizes not only is it okay to have, you know, different most important issues, even though most polls do say that the fall of Roe and reproductive health care is the most important. It doesn't mean it's the only issue. And there are some people who have other important issues because of what they're facing and things like social security. And Medicare lifted our senior citizens out of poverty. I don't think we realize our senior citizens used to have the highest level of poverty in the nation. They would work an entire life and be living in abject poverty despite working their entire lives. Like these programs lifted them out of poverty. And also, we need more programs that lift more people out of poverty. When we talk about, you know, the child tax credit, right? And all of these things we wanna do to lift more people out of poverty so that we can all have a shot to participate in this country in a productive way.

Jasmine: And I think that's a truly a fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans that I can see. In a lot of ways, Democrats focus on how can we lift people up and how can we include more people? Whereas on the right side of the aisle, it's more of just like “Everyone fend for yourself. I got mine. Why didn't you get yours? You clearly didn't work as hard as me, even though I didn't have to work at all. I just had to be born to the right parent.”

Amanda: Pick your parents well, people! That's their main policy. 

Jasmine: Like, why did you choose to be born in poverty? Like what's wrong with you, dude? Like seriously, I feel like those are fundamental differences between the two.

But I also feel like when we talk about all of these different things… I think it's also important for us to make it clear that as Hakeem Jeffries said, nothing is safe. So choose your, choose your topic, choose your adventure, and then understand that there is a Republican somewhere trying to find a way to take that away from you.

Amanda: Who wants to destroy it. Absolutely. There are so many, there is not a shortage of issues in this country to solve that we want to solve. And I think that leads to, that's part of why we're the big tent party. And it leads to a diversity of opinions of how we solve these really big issues. And these issues are not simple. They are complicated issues that affect people differently. So it is going to be complicated. Simple talking points I don't think work very well. Having real conversations about what people are going through works very well. 

But it also means on the Republicans, it's easy to get them to all rally behind one talking point of like, do nothing. That's super easy. We're going to do nothing. And if you're not doing well, it's your own fault. And we're all going to basically repeat the bootstraps arguments and move from there. But when we're talking about how do we address child poverty, how do we make sure, like, you know, name the list, right? I think the diversity of things we're trying to tackle is our strength, not our weakness, but it also means we might not always agree. And I think that's okay. 

Jasmine: And I think that's an important thing to bring up as well, because I do recognize that right now in the middle of probably one of our most important elections, we also are seeing – and it's not new, we have in-fighting all the time, but when you're a part of a big tent, that means that sometimes the thing that's really important to you, someone else in the tent might think differently than you. 

It's hard because I, I'm a big picture person, like zoom out and see big picture, how does everything fit into the puzzle? That's how I, that's how I literally do a puzzle. Like, I want to know what the final picture is going to be. Some people are more of like a zoom in, “this is the issue that I care about, this puzzle has a house and I'm going to find all the pieces that go to the house, and I'm going to make the house, and I don't care about any other part of this puzzle, the house is what I care about right now until I get my house.” And the issue is when we have these things, what we have to do, which I am not really seeing, and I'm going to be really honest right now, I'm not really seeing a lot of room for nuance and complexity and the issues that we're dealing with on the Democratic side. I see people choosing a side, doubling down and not even being willing to listen.

And the overarching effect of that is it is leaking into the election and certain people are feeling like they don't want to participate in an election where we really need everyone to participate. So, I don't know, something that's been on my mind a lot. I don't really know how we deal with this because we need maximum participation to get Biden elected. But there are a lot of people – and I will say this, on both sides of the aisle – there are a lot of people that are saying they want to sit out. And the problem is I don't want to do the math on who wants to sit out more. Let's not do that. 

Amanda: No, let's just say we all need to bring our chair and have a seat at the table and we all need to have a discussion.

And I would agree. I think our… I don't know if it's our culture or human culture or what it is, but we like a story of good guys and bad guys. And it's a very, like very a team sport, right? Jasmine, I know you're a sports fan, right? 

Jasmine: I love sports.

Amanda: We like to root for a team, right? So we're like, which team am I going to root for? And sometimes what that means is sometimes you can say some pretty not nice stuff to the other team. Like even in sports, which seems silly, like it's a person playing a game. But it doesn't leave a lot of nuance to really hear the other side out and understand again that their personal experiences might be different than your personal experiences, and they might be engaging with what's happening in a different way.

And it can be in an emotional way. And I know it can be like very easy to like be very level headed and calm when you don't have an emotional connection through like a family member or through an experience, but realizing that some people do have that experience and it is an emotional connection to them that they have on one side or the other and I think we need to be a little more.

I don't know if it's like… forgiving, empathetic… we just need a little more room in the tent. And I think now is a time where it's like, all right, how do we make this tent a little bigger? How do we have the conversation? And we, I don't even think we need to agree. I mean, we've talked about, I don't agree with my husband on everything. I still love him. I think we're doing just fine. I love living with him. We don't agree on everything. It really could work even if we don't agree, but being willing to hear the other person out. 

Jasmine: Right. And I think in 2024, I think it's even more important that we zoom out and that we look at the big picture. This election, of course it's about specific issues, but there is a full blown written out plan that involves the fall of the actual democracy. And if that happens, that is going to affect every single person under the tent, no matter what side you fell on at any point in time. And so that's what I would love for people to see. 

While also understanding that I cannot simply minimize people's lived experience, their perspectives, their feelings about what's going on. You know, If I lost a family member in a conflict in another part of the world, there's probably very little someone could say to me to make me be like, “Oh, everything's fine. Everything is awesome.” So again, I think that we have to leave room for nuance. We also have to leave room for people to have feelings.

So I'm an elected official. So I represent 60,000 people. And guess what? Of those 60,000 people, there are people that are diametrically opposed on specific issues that still support me. So me as an individual, I have to find a way to be okay with nuance. We've got to, we've got to try to find a way to have real conversations instead of talking at each other, because the truth is.

It's not a sport, you know, at the end of the day no matter which team wins or which team doesn't win, we will lose something if the election does not go the way it really, really needs to go. 

Amanda: I mean, people generally like their own opinions, get that. But if you like having opinions and being allowed to have opinions, you should probably really like democracy because under authoritarianism, you can't always have those opinions. So whatever opinion you have, if you want to continue to be able to have that opinion and speak about that opinion, we should really like a democracy and making sure that our democracy works. Because otherwise, it will be taken away. 

There are many places in this world where the ability to protest is not one of the things that they can do at all. And like, there's so many rights that democracy protects that Trump is pretty clear he would like to take away. He is pretty clear when it comes to protesting. He's pretty clear when it comes to healthcare for women, that he would love for states to be able to prosecute women for abortions, right? He has gone to the extreme of the things that he would like to take away in terms of rights, a whole gamut of them. And the extreme consequences, if you don't follow whatever it is he thinks, because under an authoritarian government, the only opinion that matters would be the dictator. 

Jasmine: Exactly.  

Amanda: Which is what he wants. 

Jasmine: And there are countries out there that, like, this is not like being made up. There are countries and there are leaders who Donald Trump makes no apologies about idolizing that do have this form of government, this form of government that says “your opinion is you like everything I do, and if you don't like everything I do, then you can lose your life or you can lose your liberty.” 

And in America, we look at countries like that and we say, “Oh my gosh, like how could this ever happen? And how could people ever vote for someone like that?” Then I’m watching what's happening in our country and I'm like, there are people, lots of people willing to vote for that because they think that it will help them because they like the guy that wants to be the dictator. No one's going to love a dictatorship. Like, even if the guy who you really like, you know, like his personality, you like how he “tells it like it is”? Yeah. That's not going to be cute when he literally doesn't allow you to have an opinion without going to jail. And if elections don't go their way, they will violently make sure that they go their way. There are countries like that. We don't want America to become that country. 

Amanda: We saw January 6th. We know, right, that this is where we're headed. And this is where we're headed because that's what they want. It gives them more power. It gives them all of the power to have the opinions, to have the policy, to do whatever they want. And most of what they want is just, no, it's just nothing. No safety net, no social security, no Medicare, no Medicaid, it's just all, they're the party of no.

Jasmine: And speaking of being in the party of no, even for things that I feel like we could all globally agree on, like who here loves cancer? Like literally no one. 

Amanda: Cancer sucks. 

Jasmine: I don't think anyone is like, yeah, “I'm rooting for the cancer.” Like no. Cancer sucks. Cancer is horrible. We need to be doing all that we can to fight and end cancer. And that takes research and funds that go into that research. The fact that Congress can't even bring themselves to root against cancer because they feel like we vote for cancer research, then Biden will get a win and we can't give Biden a win, is crazy. Like literally they were like “Cancer? Biden? I'm choosing cancer.” Like, where are we? And are these the people that we really want running our country where they cannot even get out of the politics long enough to recognize that cancer doesn't care if you're a Democrat or Republican? 

Amanda: It does not. This is like how far down the team sport mentality they are, where it is so much about their team that they will root for cancer. And we know that there are certain cancers, for example, ovarian cancer is very underfunded for how prevalent it is in society, right? This would help give cancers like that more funding so that we can address them. And so that fewer women can die of ovarian cancer. And it also means that when you have rare cancers that are fatal, certain brain cancers, that we would actually fund them and fund research to address it and to try and eliminate cancers that have been around for so long, but haven't had the resources because maybe women are affected or children are affected and they're underfunded. This is the time now to fund them so that we can address things like cancer people dying. 

Jasmine: Yeah. But I think that goes to the extremism. I think it goes to what we're really up against. It really goes back to the point that Hakeem Jeffries was making. Like look, man, anything is on the table right now. So please be mindful that the thing that you care about could very well be in jeopardy. 

All right. So I think now is probably a good time for us to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have our interview with Jen Psaki.

BREAK

Rachel: This week, we are so excited to be joined by Jen Psaki. She's the former White House Press Secretary, she's currently the host of Inside with Jen Psaki on MSNBC, and she's the author of a new book called Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House and the World. Jen, thank you so much for joining us in the podcast.

Jen: Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here and congratulations to all of you guys on all of your success with the podcast too. Such important conversations. 

Rachel: Thank you. That's very kind. Well, you worked for the Obama administration and then came back to work at the White House as press secretary for President Biden. Those years saw some pretty extreme changes in American politics. What was it like to see that all firsthand? 

Jen: That's such a diplomatic way of putting it. I love it. 

Rachel: Um, I mean, it's very diplomatic coming from me, actually. I feel like… what happened in that four years? I can't remember.  

Jen: I know. Did anything happen? 

You know, I remember so distinctly my last day of working for President Obama, I was there on the last day. I was there for the transition from, from Obama to Trump. And I was also there for the transition to Biden, which those moments told me a lot about what happened in our country. Because when we were departing, you know, I remember very specifically election day, the day after there's sort of this famous photo where I look extremely pissed off along with a number of people in the Rose Garden. And part of it was because after the election, I spent hours talking to members of my team and people in the building about how they worried this would impact them and their lives personally. And I mean, people who were Muslim, people who were LGBTQ people who just worried, what does this mean for me and my family? People who were first generation immigrants. Uh, and I would say to everyone, “We're going to figure this out. It's going to be okay.”

Rachel: I said the same thing.

Jen: I don't think I said it's going to be okay. I think I said it’s going to be okay. I will say, because Josh Earnest is so wonderful, he was the press secretary at the time I was a communications director and I was sort of emotional and crying and holding people's hands, and Josh was so calm cause he's just a calm cat. Um, I was not as calm. But we thought, well, maybe it's going to be okay. And it was much worse than what we thought was going to happen, I think it's safe to say, for a million reasons I'm sure we can discuss. 

Now the transition when Biden was coming in, as obviously the period of time when the plot to have fake electors to plan an insurrection was all happening, right? It was all happening. In both cases, the Obama team and the Biden team were just trying to transition government, right? We had strong disagreements, that's putting diplomatically and mildly, with the policies of the incoming and the outgoing president and many of his team. But our objective was to have a peaceful transfer of power in both cases. That is not what theirs was. 

So yes, during that time I mean, I was on the outside, obviously I was a contributor at CNN. I was working at the Carnegie endowment for international peace, working on global issues. It was just hard to watch as a human, as an American, as somebody who cares about our country. I don't even mean as a partisan. Yes, I've worked in democratic politics for years, but it is much, much bigger than that. Friends of mine, colleagues who felt under threat because of what was happening, that's kind of how it felt. 

Jasmine: Yeah, that's pretty crazy. And I think about this from so many different perspectives, but one of the perspectives I think about is from the perspective of a mom. So we are all moms here, and like many of us you've had to answer some very difficult questions about what's going on in the world to your kids. And so how has your parenting and your politics kind of influenced each other? 

Jen: Yeah. I mean, my kids are now five and eight. So they were extremely young. I mean, my daughter was 18 months old when Trump was elected. Um, my son was born during the Trump administration, which I'm, I was like, I'm sorry about that, my friend, there are many other better choices. 

But like, you know you know, I'm a believer that you do have to meet people where they are, and that includes kids. But it doesn't mean that you need to guard them from any conversations. And you know, my daughter's eight and a half. She's a massive reader, which I'm hugely grateful for. She is aware of the world around her. She will ask me questions, and I try to meet her where she is. 

And I, I tell this story in my book, but about one night during the early days of the you know, Putin and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, when she said to me, “mommy, how do wars start?” And it's like, how do you answer that for a six year old, you know? And it's not in my view to say, “Don't worry about that, sweetheart. Let's talk about unicorns.” Because listen, wars are part of what happens in the world and I don't want to scare her, but I basically explained to her, “Sometimes people want other people's lands. Sometimes it's about religion. Sometimes it's about conflicts that are even bigger than that.” You know? And she said, “okay,” and I was like, “Do you have any questions?” 

So I try to, they do ask questions. My son, it's very, he's five now. And he said to me maybe last year, “Mommy…” Or no, he didn't even say it to me, I think he said it to my sister. “Mommy and Donald Trump hate each other.” And I said, “Buddy, we don't use the word hate. We don't hate anybody. Uh, I would say we have disagreements. I'm not sure Donald Trump spends a lot of time thinking about me, but I certainly have some thoughts about him.” 

And that's how I explain it. My point is, they are aware of the politics that my husband and I share. We met in democratic politics. We do not shove it in their faces. We do talk to them about our values and issues that we care about and not in a like, “we're supporting this candidate because they're a Democrat.” We say, I say, “I support the Democrats because I think everybody should have access to healthcare. And I think we should treat people as everyone is equal. And we care about the people around us, including people who aren't as fortunate. That's why we're Democrats.” There's more reasons than that, obviously, but like, I want them to understand in a way that's accessible to them.

But they also are like, you know, kids. They’re taking in some of it and sometimes they just like, you know, my daughter thinks the president makes good cookies. Cause it's like one time she came to the White House and they gave her cookies and now her friends think he makes good cookies. And like, that's part of her knowledge. He doesn't make the cookies, but like, it's okay. They do have good cookies at the white house. 

Rachel: I want to get back to something you were saying earlier about things changed and you were trying, you were interested in a peaceful transfer of power, which is a norm. Norms really kind of don't exist anymore. It feels a lot like we're the only people beholden to norms and we're playing against people who don't want to follow rules. And how do you do that? Because you don't want to betray your values. Like if we lose that, we lose who America is in the process of getting America back, getting the United States back. We don't want to do that. So how do you play by the rules, knowing. that the other side isn't? You know, you've always worked in communications and I just find this to be a really difficult thing.

Jen: Well, I think the key here is not allowing people to normalize it, right? And, and that is the thing. Look, there are, I have my views on social security, on healthcare, on abortion rights, on climate. There are debates to be had out there. I respect that even though I have my strong views. This is not that. And I think that's what's important to remind people of. There are not two sides of democracy or two sides of like, whether or not you should be supporting candidates who deny the outcome of the 2020 election. 

And to me, it is acknowledging there are disagreements on a range of policy issues. I have my views. Here's why. But also not allowing the, “Are we for democracy or against it? Are we, or are we for candidates who deny the rights of voters and the voices of voters from 2020 or against it?” That's not, there's no two sides to that. And I think there's an important differentiation.

Which means, you know, I, and people have different views on this. Like, you know, I, I have Republicans on the show all the time who I have different views on a lot of issues with. I think that's healthy. But I don't have people on who are going to deny the outcome of the election in 2020 or who are enablers of that. I think that's a pretty safe line or a pretty good line to have. Now sometimes that means I have on people who are, you know, who viewers don't love. And that's okay. Because sometimes it's important to hear the viewpoints of people who come from a different background, a different take, especially if they're going to say, “This is not okay. And like, what is being advocated for now is not okay.” And I do think those voices are important. 

Rachel: Good answer.

Jasmine: Yeah. Speaking of people that people don't love, recently after the state of the union, we saw Katie Britt pretty much play the stereotypical suburban mom. So, you know, in the kitchen… 

Rachel: I wish I could show you guys my kitchen right now because it's like, it's a freaking disaster and her kitchen had no stuff in it. So maybe that's the key? If I just don't let anyone walk in there or have any things in it? I don't know. Maybe we can learn that from her. 

Jen: I have so many thoughts about this. Keep going. 

Jasmine: Haha yes, it was stereotypical all the way. And then you have Steve Bannon in all of his apparent infinite wisdom, saying that MAGA doesn't even need suburban women in the next election. And so I'm just curious to hear from you. I would love to hear your thoughts on that whole thing, but also just big picture... what role do you think suburban women are going to play in this upcoming election?

Jen: I mean, I'm just going to reverse here because… enormous. Suburban women care about good public schools, care about the safety of their kids in those schools. Um, every time there's a shooting, I feel freaked out about my kids. And I am not alone. Um, they care about their own rights, about their own bodies. And again, this is not about democratic suburban women. This is about women who are working, not working, taking care of their families, trying to just get by, et cetera. 

Okay. Let me get into the Katie Britt thing now because I don't know Katie Britt, I have seen her speak publicly prior to this, and I thought she was pretty good generally. Just as a communications evaluator. 

Rachel: What happened? 

Jen: I have no earthly clue who gave her that advice. She should never work with them again. First of all, suburban women are not just like sitting in the kitchen. We do all sorts of things. Second is it was like fire and brimstone from your kitchen, which is like, who is that appealing to? I don't even know. And I felt scared at moments during that speech. 

Now, again, I don't know her. But what I find super offensive about this on her behalf is Katie Britt is a super accomplished person. I mean, she is like, she was a chief of staff to a well respected member of the Senate, when she was in her 30s. Like, not that that has to be all suburban women, we do different things, but it's like they muted over and minimized her own accomplishments. You don't have to agree with her to recognize that. And they like tried to make her into this, like, weird, like you know, I'm thinking of like, what, like the Truman Show, it's like you cut off her head and she's like got a machine in there and it's like a fire and brimstone, you know, AI generated scary suburban mom. That is not who suburban moms are, nor is it who she is. She's a very accomplished, impressive woman who I don't agree with on every issue, but I feel like there was a massive disservice to her and whoever advised her to do the speech in the way she did.

Jasmine: Yeah. I definitely 100 percent agree with that as a person sitting in my, not kitchen, but my very poorly actually undecorated office, but yes. Like, you know, suburban women, we are not just this one caricature that I feel like they are trying to put to port. And I say that not to minimize the fact that there are suburban moms that are, you know, stay at home moms, and there are probably suburban moms listening right now whose kitchens are immaculate. Like, I'm not taking away from that at all. But I do feel like the GOP tends to want to create this image of who women are or are supposed to be. 

Rachel: Are supposed to be.

Jasmine: And to your point, minimize all of the accomplished things, you know, all the different things that we actually really are out here doing, to play on the images and stereotypes of where women should be.

Jen: Yes. It's so weird. And like, whether you're working or not working, every mom is more you being your kids. Listen, my kids are the greatest magical unicorn human beings in my life. That is true. I am, of course, much more than that. I have interests. I have books. I like to read and shows I like to watch, a job… whatever. We're all multifaceted humans is the thing. And so I think sometimes it's like put into this AI generated box, which is a mistake.

Rachel:  I do wish there was more conversation around recognizing that we are more and it's not just, I'm not only voting because of reproductive rights. I'm not only voting because of safety in school. And it feels like just an oversimplification and not really recognizing the complexity of what goes into what I advocate for and what I want. 

So, I mean, speaking of lots of different things, tell us about your book. It sounds like it's very wide ranging. So it must be very exciting. Tell us about it!

Jen: Yeah, it's um, it's called Say More and it's really about lessons in communicating. And so I tell lots of stories about people that people will know, Barack Obama and Joe Biden, John Kerry, Rahm Emanuel. But each chapter is really meant to be a lesson, and something I've learned over the last 20 years. So it's like a book I wish I would have had when I was starting my career or in my twenties, if that makes sense. 

And what I found, I don't know if this is true for both of you, but I bet it is… I've learned more from the mistakes that I've made or from the times I wish I would have spoken up or from the things I wish I would have handled differently than like, wow, that was a really successful big day, you know? And so I talk about a lot of that. 

I mean, everything from, again, what to do when you make a mistake, how to deal with bullies, like the Kremlin, for example, I talked about that in there, how to deal with different kinds of bosses, which is important, how to take and seek feedback, which I took a long time to learn that. So it's all told through my experience and lots again of people that people know but that's what it's about. I love it. 

Rachel: The Kremlin is really good about playing those head games. That's like their, their thing. When we lived there one day, I was, I, you know, I just spent all day in the winter in an apartment with a toddler. And I read that Vladimir Putin kept John Kerry waiting for hours. And I was like, “I could have just sent my toddler.” 

Jen: I was on that trip!

Rachel: Oh, were you? I was like, I could have just sent my toddler over there. She speaks Russian. No one's going to leave her waiting around, or they will pay for it. So I was like, I, I wish we would have connected, then Jen, I really could have helped you with this.

Jen: We could have taken your toddler! See, that would have been like the answer!

Rachel: Yeah. Okay, yeah, like that is really what I was angling for. 

But I really look forward to reading this. I think everyone can benefit from understanding that we learn the lessons when we go through the hardest times. And that is… just in raising a teenager, we have a teenager, Jasmine has two teenagers. And it is really hard when you know, they don't have that perspective of life. And then you also realize, “Oh no, but you get the perspective when it's, when it's the hard times.” And you don't want them to go through it, but you know, they're going to, and it's true for us too. So it's not the end of the world.

Jen: Oh God, I feel like I can't, I mean, my kids are still little and I just like, I'm already anticipating kind of like the mean girl stuff which I know will happen. And just like the, not being invited to birthday party, whatever. All the things.

Rachel: All the things. 

Jasmine: It'll all happen. 

I'm really curious before we go, because I think that your book sounds like it has amazing advice on effective communication. And I feel like a big question that a lot of people have is like, how do I talk to my family and friends about politics? Maybe they want to talk to them because they want to get them more engaged, or maybe they want to talk to them because they just feel like that person's views are not informed and they want to inform them. But either way, what tips would you give our listeners to having those types of conversations? 

Jen: Well, I would first, I mean, every scenario is different, but I would first say, generally, come to any conversation informed. The second thing I would say, and I talked about this a bit in the book, is that listening is not just about talking at someone, right? It's not just about waiting for your, your chance to speak. It's about really being interactive about how you're engaging with another person. And that means being willing to hear an alternate point of view. It doesn't mean it's going to change your opinion. It doesn't mean you need to agree with them. It just means asking questions about why they think the way they think, because often there was just not enough done of that, right? 

The third thing I would say, and I talk about this too in the book, but I learned this a lot from Barack Obama is… you need to not assume that people who have different points of view are going to attack you or be unwilling to listen to you either. You know, and he, obviously he kind of like got on the scene, shall we say, from giving quite a speech at the 2004 convention. But I think part of the reason why he was elected is because he was somebody who, when he was running in Iowa during the Iowa caucus, he, as a Black man from Chicago who was a constitutional law professor, went into people's living rooms and he listened to them. And made them feel that he cared about what they had to say. And he did. And didn't assume that like a white farmer from rural Iowa was going to be unwilling to engage. 

And the last thing I would say is, you know, and this I learned from Joe Biden is like, don't use fancy vernacular or Washington DC terms when you're talking about issues because you may think you're sound smart, but you sound snobby. And you're not welcoming people into the conversation. That's part of the more informed you are, the more you can speak in accessible language. And so that's the last piece I would say. 

Rachel: I love that. That is really great advice. My husband is really good at the latter because he came from an immigrant family and his parents, his dad learned English when he was almost in his fifties, very intelligent man. But it's important to meet people where they are, and explain things. And also, if you can explain things and get people to understand a complex subject, you're really, you've kind of won in a lot of ways, because you've allowed them to understand something that other people have told them isn't accessible, or that they're incapable of understanding. And that's simply not true. 

Jen: It builds trust. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Well, this has been wonderful. It has been lovely talking to you about serious stuff. But before we let you go, we always want to ask our guests some rapid fire questions. So are you ready? 

Jen: Oh, good. Okay. I know I talk a lot. I'll be quick. I'll be rapid fire.

Jasmine: All right. So you've had some pretty incredible guests on your show. We won't ask you to choose favorites, we would never do that to you, but who's one guest that really sticks with you? 

Jen: I've had Jamie Raskin on the show a lot. I did a package, a piece with him where we did a hike and we talked about the period of time when he lost his son and he was still leading the effort to investigate January 6th and uh, it just, it sticks with me. That sticks with me. I have a lot that stick with me, but that's one of them. 

Rachel: Understandably so. America loves press secretaries, or they love to hate them. But I do think a lot of the love for press secretaries comes from the West Wing. Do you have a favorite character on the West Wing?

Jen: I mean, how could it not be CJ Cregg? I mean, obviously. 

Rachel: Okay. Softball question!

Jasmine: I love it. I love it. What's the best advice that you have ever received? 

Jen: You know, I talk about this in my book too, but Robert Gibbs, who was the first press secretary for Barack Obama, when I was hired to kind of travel with Obama on his second campaign, I traveled with him on both, but I had like kind of a more senior role. And I was a little bit worried, like, will he listen to me? How will he take me seriously? He's known me since I was 27 or 28. And he was like, “just act like you belong there and at a certain point, everyone will believe you, including you.”

It sounds very simple, but it's, it's stuck with me because especially women, sometimes you don't believe it. It's like imposter syndrome. You don't believe you deserve a seat at the table or in the conversation. And to some degree, at least initially, we're all faking it until we make it. I mean, you know, confidence wise. And that's stuck with me every time I kind of do something.

Jasmine: No, I love that. I need that advice. I still say, I still try to, you know, talk myself out of things. Cause I'm like, eh, maybe it's not the right time. Maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe someone else will be better. I have to stop doing that. So. Advice I needed to hear today. 

Rachel: Well, where can listeners go to find out more about you and your work?

Jen: Well, certainly they can watch MSNBC and watch my show at noon on Sundays and 8 PM on Mondays. If they're interested in the book tour, I'm going to be all around the country. Say More book tour, Google it, all the details are there. I look forward to it and we'll take lots of questions. Sign lots of books. It'll be fun. 

Rachel: Thank you for joining us today on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Jen: Thank you both so much. It was a real pleasure. I appreciate you guys so much. Love your, love your podcast. Thank you. Thank you.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Jasmine, I was so excited to hear your interview with Jen Psaki. What was it like to get to talk with her? 

Jasmine: You know, it's really cool because she's actually the second press secretary... I mean, well, she's a former, but you know, the second press secretary that I got a chance to talk to. And I just love that she's a wealth of knowledge and outside, like, you know, how you see a person and are like, this is who they are. They are the press secretary. And then you talk to them and you realize like, there's so much more to the person than the person who's standing, you know, in front of the press at the White House. So it was really cool to just have a more broad conversation with her about all types of things, including the role that suburban women have played and probably will play in elections.  

Amanda: Oh, love that. Um, also I know I have heard Jen Psaki say similar things, even about the presidents. That the narrative that gets shaped around presidents isn't always actually, like, who they are. And it takes a little more to understand who they are. Which I was like, yeah, I feel it's probably true with anything. I feel like even with the stories we tell like history and I know you know, we've had Heather Cox Richardson on the show, but the stories we tell sometimes don't reflect what happens. I love finding out more about people, and figuring out what their stories are and who they actually are. 

Jasmine: Yeah, absolutely. And so I was really, it was really nice to talk to her. Um, and the part where she talked about the role of suburban women, I think she understands why this podcast even exists. You know, this whole idea of people not understanding who we are as a voting block, but just generally speaking. Like they have their picture of us–

Amanda: June Cleaver.

Jasmine: Right. And it's like, this is it like, and I'm like, yeah, no, you probably need to zoom out a little bit because there's a whole lot more to this picture. And that's why your policies are falling flat, because you're literally trying to convince suburban women to be scared of suburban women. Like you're, it is just not, it's just not working because you don't know who your audience is.

Amanda: I love that, I think that with like the book bans and the whole school uproar, like, like that was like Fox News trying to be like, “You think you know your school? We know it better over here at Fox News.” And I'm like, “No, you don't. You don't.”

Jasmine: Yeah, exactly. Alright. I think now is a good time to move to the Toast to Joy. So Amanda, what do you have for us? What's something good that happened to you this last week? 

Amanda: I definitely have to do my Toast to Joy to Mimi, my middle child. Um, and it was her birthday, seventh birthday. She is so excited for her seventh birthday. So actually her birthday is today, but we celebrated it over the weekend. And she is just our little spitfire and I am so excited to see what she is going to do when she gets older. So happy birthday, Amelia. We are so excited for your seventh birthday.

Jasmine: Is she like Jayda? Jayda starts planning her birthday, like the day after she turns like whatever. 

Amanda: Yeah, that is her. That is, yep. We had, yep, she has been planning this for a very long time. She wanted to go to Chuck E Cheese, we adore Chuck E. Cheese. I think it's a little old school, but my kids are like, we love it. I want to do Chuck E. Cheese. I'm like, “Deal. Let's go do some Chuck E. Cheese.” All right, Jasmine, what's your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: So today I am actually donating my Toast to Joy to the Arizona Senate for overturning that stupid, stupid, stupid 1864 abortion ban. And so my toast is to governor Katie Hobbs, who signed the repeal of the abortion ban last week. And I have been following this very closely because I am in a group or a cohort with women from all over the country. And one of the people that's in the group, she was instrumental and fighting for this repeal. I mean, she was instrumental in the media. She was instrumental on the floor. She just was like, right up in there in it. And so every time they had a defeat, you know, I would always kind of be like, “How are you? How are things going?” Because I knew how taxing it was on her. And so I was so excited to cheer for her when the governor signed the repeal. 

Now the, the issue though is, so that's my toast, my toast is to governor Katie Hobbs. But I would be remiss if I did not mention that the way that this works, the repeal still won't go into effect for another two to three months. So there is still a window of time where abortion is banned in Arizona, and because of that, things like the Arizona Freedom Trust that Red Wine and Blue has been coordinating, it's still very important. Because we still need to be able to support those women, you know, in this little window of time where they have no rights. So celebrating that victory, definitely toast, but also acknowledging that it's not all, you know, champagne flutes and confetti for everyone, especially people who need services now. 

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. Love. I, first of all, I love that they got this and I think it's also an important lesson that even, even things that seem obvious to many, many, many people, they're not. Our hard work to actually change again, when you're fighting against the party of just no.

And I know even in Ohio, we recently decided that it should be illegal to drug and rape your wife. Which seems like that would be an easy one to say no to, but that we should not have to make illegal. But people had to fight for that and had to do work. And I think this is a great toast just to, just to show, you know, to mention how much work goes into things that even the majority of people should think are obvious, but when you're fighting against the party of no, it's going to take work at every step. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. And that's why we fight. That's why we do what we do. That's why we are staying in this all the way because. You know, you just never know. You never know when the thing that you did, the thing that you said, or, you know, whatever it is, might be the thing that actually saves someone's life or gets that really bad thing repealed. So glad we, glad y'all got that one over the finish line.

All right. So with that, I wanted to say thanks so much to everyone for joining us today, and we'll see you again next week on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.