DeAnn Knighton 0:06
Oh hello. This is the sober positive workplace series brought to you by show up and stay. I'm your host Deann Knighton.
Craig Knighton 0:20
Today we're going to try something a little different. Fear not, your faithful host is still with us, but as one of our guests today, and instead it will be me, Craig at the helm. A few weeks back, Deanna and I had a chance to try her hand at normalizing. And it was a humbling experience. We learned that the simplest of mistakes can tumble out of control. We learned the past trauma can trigger us in surprising ways. And most importantly, we learned that no matter how we try to make people feel normal, it can still lead to the very thing we hope to avoid focusing attention on someone who simply hoped to avoid feeling different. Well, hey, Deann. Hi. It was great to be here today and enjoy Thanksgiving with you and your family.
DeAnn Knighton 1:04
I know it's so nice to be in person. And it's so nice to not be the hosts.
Craig Knighton 1:09
The reason I wanted to talk to you today is to go back to something that happened to us together back when you were visiting in Minneapolis about a month ago. Do you mind, kitchen, everybody on why you were visiting? Yeah,
DeAnn Knighton 1:21
absolutely. So I have mentioned, I think I mentioned that on the earlier episode in the sober positive workplace series, that I did make the decision to go back to school. And I'm in a graduate program with hazel and Betty Ford Graduate School of addiction studies, which is based in Minneapolis, although they have locations, obviously, all throughout the country. But the hub of the grad school is in Minneapolis. And although my program is primarily online, I do have two weekly residencies that I go do in person. So it works out perfectly. I have someone to stay with while in there, which was really nice. And it was also a good chance to since we're trying to do a lot of this work like across the country for us to work on some things related to show up and say and so we're positive workplace together as well. So there was kind of a lot going on during that week. I definitely have been permitting for a while not in necessarily a bad way. But in the sense that my schooling being all online has really just kind of kept me indoors quite a bit. So it was, I don't know, though, the stress of just kind of being out in the world and kind of being immersed into this, eight to 910 hour days of people. But I will admit was a little bit shocking. But it was awesome. Before
Craig Knighton 2:45
you came out, one of the things that you had asked me to do was to get involved with you in a non alcoholic? How would you describe it like a consortium a group of people that are working together to bring various non alcoholic in that non alcohol market? Yeah, yeah. Which was an entirely new thing for me. Of course, you know, there's been non alcoholic products around for a long time. But I had no idea that there was so much interest in this as almost a bit of a phenomenon, even with non alcoholic craft beers, and a variety of other na products being brought to market and new ways and being made available in restaurants. Really, it seems like that new cottage industry is trying to make it as normal as possible, and to make sure that anyone who wants to enjoy and a drink has a chance to do so and have a great variety of products available with great flavors. And that was all new to me. Now, before you came out. We had decided we wanted to treat you to dinner, favorite restaurant of ours in fact restaurant where kids were married. And this place is it's just really well known for its chef's dinner right where the chef makes all the decisions about what they will be bringing for you. And for those who have alcohol, they'll do things like wine pairings to go along with the dinner. And when we were looking at the menu, we noticed that they had this na option for being able to do a wine pairing with the chef dinner with non alcoholic wines that were of all available from the same company. So I don't even remember i But I assume we probably just brought it up maybe mentioned to you that it was an option in case you were interested. And because we were doing that too. I don't know if it was something you genuinely wanted to try or if it was because we brought the idea up. Do you remember it
DeAnn Knighton 4:40
was brought up on the way and so it felt like it built momentum around it? And then I was kinda like, Oh, that's really cool, because I've been thinking a lot about this especially as it relates to getting to know more and more people in the space of the workplace space and trying to create events that are more inclusive for People who don't drink and getting to know that world a little bit better. This is a great chance for me to actually see that inaction. And so I didn't necessarily feel anything good or bad. I was kind of neutral. But I was like,
Craig Knighton 5:14
Yeah. And I think we probably felt the same way. I don't feel like anyone was coercing anyone. No, no, but But what was a little bit surprising was how it all went down. So maybe we can get you to talk about how it went, from your point of view, what I remember more than anything else, after we got through ordering everything, is what happened when the server walked up with all of our lines. And she walked out with a tray with five or six different classes of wine, and they all looked identical. Right. So then what
DeAnn Knighton 5:48
happened? Right, yeah, I think that there's a couple of things in terms of groundwork on my perspective of this that are important just for anyone who maybe hasn't heard some of the history, I'm definitely a person who identifies in recovery from substance use disorder, specifically alcohol use disorder. And so I do have a history of addiction. And I'm also someone though, who is a big proponent for variety of ways that people find recovery and find ways to enjoy their life. And I'm hugely supportive of this idea of trying to normalize non drinking much more than we have, we put a lot of effort into social events being surrounded by it. So maybe, you know, trying to find some ways that we can change that social messaging a little bit. The interesting thing here is that there's different schools of thought on this, you know, for a lot of people who go through a certain level of treatment, and especially an abstinence treatment program, one of the very first things you learn in 12 steps or anything is, you know, avoid people places and things, avoid those things, those triggers, right, that are going to make you want to drink. Despite my openness for a variety of ways to recover. For me, abstinence has been the best choice. And that has included, you know, definitely in the beginning, some avoidance of some places in the past that like wouldn't have just felt good to me. I've certainly had mocktails I've certainly gone to restaurants and ordered like a special drink that made me at least feel like I was fancy or you know, whatever that is. But
Craig Knighton 7:24
let me ask you, is it fair to say no one had ever walked up to you with a wineglass in their hand?
DeAnn Knighton 7:30
No. So we ordered the flights, everyone else at the table got the same flight, which did include alcohol, I ordered the non alcoholic flight, she comes to the table with these five glasses of wine. And all five, as you said, looked exactly the same, and exactly the same glass. And I think the biggest trigger of all was, at this moment, the server showed her hesitation, that she didn't know which one for sure was the non alcoholic. And it was that whole exchange where then she went through a process of Oh, don't worry, though, like, I'll know when I smell it. Which one isn't she bent
Craig Knighton 8:11
over and started smelling you to them just
DeAnn Knighton 8:13
started selling it. And I all I can tell you was happening to me was like, I was incredibly uncomfortable. I
Craig Knighton 8:21
was watching you and your eyes were getting bigger and bigger. And it was just like, Oh no, what is happening here, right? You're gonna make me drink this somehow I'm gonna feel like I have to do this. Yeah, and we I don't know what this is. And you've told me stories about situations out of your control before that left you doing something you really didn't intend or want to do? And was that going to happen again? And I was feeling that same thing. I was afraid that something was going to happen that was not okay. Right?
DeAnn Knighton 8:53
Yeah, there was a miss there on the part of the establishment and of the process to maybe be a little bit more mindful of why someone would be choosing the non alcoholic option
Craig Knighton 9:08
right so she put all the glasses down and put the one she thought was Yeah, was the NA option in front of you. And I think at that point, I could tell there was no way you were going to try this or certainly try it first right to be the one to go but
DeAnn Knighton 9:24
I will tell you the other piece that was going on in my head was my pleaser was my oh I'm just being difficult Oh great. Now like the one thing I didn't want which is to stand out with everyone and make it about me when this is just a time I'm trying to spend with my nephew and my family right? Instead now it was this right? My history is always assuming that I'm overwhelming situations or that I'm always taking over and I have this really weird probably crazy sense that I'm doing that all the time. So it brought all that up right like here I am again right in the center in a situation where really don't want to be right. And I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable. And so I went through that phase. I don't know if you remember, I talked her and I said, I kind of acted like, I didn't feel comfortable. But then I backed off of it. You did?
Craig Knighton 10:12
Yeah. You were like, Oh, it's okay.
DeAnn Knighton 10:14
It's okay. I'm gonna go with that. Right? It was
Craig Knighton 10:17
fine. I think we all jumped in to try to help and we're all trying hours to see if we can tell whether or not it is alcohol. And and I guess at which point, a lot of us, Katie, I think it was immediately said, Oh, this is the NA one you had? It was Yeah, you had wine in front of you. Had you gone with the pleaser thing? Had you picked up that class, you would have tried it? Right.
DeAnn Knighton 10:42
That's a problem. That experience should not have gone that should never be possible for that damn. Right. And I did feel really uncomfortable. So then once I even knew I had the non alcoholic wine, like for sure 100% I still couldn't do it. And what I did is I just opted for like a mocktail and said there was something about that, that felt safer to me than drinking a substance that everyone else was drinking that was that looks so similar, like, because we were going to go through four more rounds of
Craig Knighton 11:12
these flights. Right? Right. And that just felt like it was gonna happen again, every time she comes.
DeAnn Knighton 11:20
And suddenly, it just really did shine an interesting light.
Craig Knighton 11:25
So what I remember is the next day, we had a chance to talk about how this all happened in what you had experienced. And what I thought I saw. As you were going through all of that, what I remember is that the one thing that we wondered, was just how much that whole situation just started simply because of that first little misstep, like did that have nothing to do with the fact that it was, you know, flights of wine, and that the product and the situation with it was all a little maybe too familiar? To be comfortable, and maybe a little bit too triggering for you, I, we only knew that it had almost gone really badly at the beginning. And we've all would have felt bad.
Ross Barrell 12:12
That happened, right?
Craig Knighton 12:15
We didn't really know at that point what it was, and whether we'd have a chance to figure it out? Well, little did we know. But that second chance, I think probably happened within the next couple of days. That week, I got together with this group of people in Minnesota who are focusing on bringing non alcoholic products to the market. And they're really trying to push to get these products out into stores and restaurants and, and even into the breweries and wineries in the area. In fact, the meeting that I attended with them, was held in one of the very popular local breweries. And it was amazing to hear the owner of the establishment tell his personal story about with alcohol, and his decision to stop drinking alcohol, and how he could even continue to be the owner of a brewery given that decision. But there he was. And part of what he had done with his own interest and energy is actually focus on working with other entrepreneurs in the area that had invented a process for removing alcohol from beers and wines, after it's all been produced. So it's a very authentic taste still there. And if you were a lover of craft beers before, then you could still have that sort of authentic craft beer flavor. So I had a chance while I was there at their meeting to try one of those out. And I thought it tasted fine. So I decided to pick up a six pack of it and bring it home. Knowing that that your partner Ross would be joining us later in the week and he might enjoy trying it as well. I don't remember we I think we're sort of hanging out that evening after he had arrived and enjoying kind of the view and looking out over the river hanging out in the sunroom there. And I think it all started by you just asking if you could try one of those beers that I picked up. Yes.
DeAnn Knighton 14:13
Okay, wait, hold on. Yes. All right. Yes, everybody hold on, because I'm going to see if I can get Ross to come out of the conversation. Ross is here, Ross, thank you for being here with us. I decided I was going to try one. And this was funny because I had already had that other experience. But I don't know, it's just felt like a no to. So I go grab it. And I had a sip and I just didn't like it. I don't know, I just felt weird. I just didn't feel comfortable. And I didn't want to finish it. And I really can't explain why. Other than probably five years of building up a lot of mental energy around the importance of me being a non drinker. There was something too familiar that I don't know, I just didn't love. And so I thought, Oh, well, I'll just hand this over to Ross. So for those of you who have not listened to the early days to show up and say podcast, you should go back and listen to Ross's episode. And he does talk about his own background in recovery on that episode. So he is also a human in recovery. What did you think? Well, it
Ross Barrell 16:07
was interesting, because I have my own experience with non alcoholic, especially when I stopped drinking, you know, a while ago, where there was so much built up around the way that I this the involvement with having something that was in my hand like a beer or whatever. So when I first stopped drinking I, I was convinced that I was going to get into non alcoholic beer. And so if you were someone who like brewed your own beer, it wasn't just especially beer in particular wasn't something that was just a vessel to get alcohol. And there was plenty of other things that were but beer was something that I actually enjoyed, I actually liked to participate in. So giving that up felt like a loss. And when I first would drink non alcoholic beer, it did feel like it scratched an itch that I was trying to find when I first got sober. But I kind of just slowly faded out of that. And it has been a long time since I've engaged in that. And it's funny, it's not out of any particular reason. Other than I think where I'm at now, where that feels so far away, and the lore of it isn't there anymore. So when you first handed me that drink, it was like, it felt there was like a rush of remembering a lot of times that did include drinking. Yeah, right. Right. So there was like a feeling of memory. But I'm also to the point where those memories don't have a whole lot of positive experience behind them much more, all of a sudden kind of felt like shame and kind of a dread. And there and, and I also a lot of my drinking was hidden, right, especially at the end point, when I was trying to stop drinking, I did a lot of drinking and secrecy and a lot of hiding. So a lot of those memories that came back to me and the thing that I felt was all of a sudden, the shame of like, I shouldn't be drinking this, I shouldn't be drinking it in front of the end, I shouldn't be drinking this in front of the kids. It also brought up the feeling of shame and the secrecy of feeling like there was a part of me that now engaging in this felt like something that I needed to hide, I would say that the main feeling was fear. Like it brought up a sense of fear and a sense of shame. And brought up a lot of embarrassment to me. So I think that the that feeling of shame and embarrassment is now something that I wear on my sleeve. And I really like I I can just feel my whole body react to it and something that I just want to run away from and, and it felt it's also something that I've never felt with the end. And I've rarely felt with my kids because I stopped drinking when they were tiny kids and so so to experience that with them felt very risky and felt very scary to me. So almost like I didn't know exactly what to do with it. There was something about it that didn't feel right. And then there was also something about it that Phil really nice in the fact that I kind of realized and look at where I'm at now and how at this point I'm I'm happy with where I am. And I don't need to have something that supplements something that feels embarrassing to
DeAnn Knighton 20:08
Ross's have an excuse, but he's just so lovely. There was something really uncomfortable for me about watching him drink it. And I think it's all the things he just explained, even though that our entire lives are not centered around the fact that we're in recovery anymore. We have built full lives with lots that we do. It's still a big part of who we are. And there was something just really uncomfortable about that.
Craig Knighton 20:33
Yeah, one of the things I can tell you is that, you know, there are lots of things in this world that cause trauma. And yet you can recognize it, you can, even though I have had none of the experiences, those specific experiences that made these substances traumatic for you and for us, I certainly have my own traumatic experiences. And I know, I've I've had others see in me what trauma looks like, I've, I've had them say, I don't know what I just saw, but you just went something just happened to you. And I saw that in both of you in those in those two different circumstances. And in a strange way, I felt badly to be the one to have put you in that situation. Right? Why? We were trying? This is an experiment, we were trying to figure out what it meant to normalize something like this. But I found in a very profound way that it was much more difficult than I thought it was going to be.
DeAnn Knighton 21:45
I think so too.
Craig Knighton 21:46
There's not sure it was worth it on. In hindsight, I'm not I'm glad we did the experiment, I guess. But I'm i It's not a thing I would want to repeat with the idea that well, if we do this enough times, it will become normal.
DeAnn Knighton 22:01
Right? Because there's not the upside isn't there? In our case, in the case of Ross and I know right, other other people might have different wants and needs and get something very different from those experiences that it's valuable enough to get it right. And I can see that there might be space for that. It's also so interesting to have that juxtaposed with the fact that I was at Hazelden in Center City, which is really beautiful campus, it has a ton of history in the space of recovery, a lot of ties back to some of the original foundation, a and all of the things that have led to what we know of recovery today. So it was also very interesting to be in that environment, where I had like literally just walked through and collected on how incredible it was that I was there that all of the things that had happened, that got me to this point that I was sitting at Hazleton, preparing to become a counselor. You know, it was so overwhelming that same day, this all happened, I sat in this meditation room, and I cried, and I felt all the feelings, and then to have that juxtapose with this, something really didn't feel right. And so I think it's just an interesting thing to consider. You know, it's like everything. It's always complicated. There's nuance and all of it does require a level of sensitivity. That isn't just normalizing for the sake of it. It's just like anything, right? It can't, still has to be done right.
Craig Knighton 23:29
As much as I admire the cause and efforts of the people who are working to create and market these products, I find myself reflecting on how much more is going on, or maybe going wrong in these situations. It takes a lot of things going right to create a normal experience for everyone. And no one ever really knows until they try just how they will react. It seems safer for all to take the time to make sure that nothing obvious can go wrong, and to be gracious and quickly changing the plan if something does.
DeAnn Knighton 24:02
For more information, please visit our website, sober positive workplace.org Or show up in stay.org. This podcast is written Created and produced by me Deann featuring music from the wickedly talented Katy hare
your a great host