Girl Means Business

255: Empowering Women to Break Free from Imposter Syndrome with Ludovica Colella

• Kendra Swalls • Episode 252

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Ever felt like a fraud in your own life? Discover how to smash through the imposter syndrome glass ceiling with Ludovica Colella, a transformation coach who's equipping millennial women with the tools to cultivate confidence and ditch self-doubt. Our enlightening conversation digs into the roots of imposter syndrome and its grip on women's self-perception, highlighting how to transition from negative self-talk to embracing our ideal selves. Ludovica's expert insights on overcoming the urge to please everyone promise to revolutionize the way you approach your own potential and success.

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Speaker 1:

Hey there and welcome to the Girl Means Business podcast, the show where we're all about helping you feel confident, both as a mom and a business owner. I'm your host, kendra Swalls, mom of two, former teacher and full-time photographer and business coach. Each week we'll discuss the challenges, success and secrets that make you say I can do this, because you absolutely can. So pop in those earbuds, grab your favorite snack and let's dive in, because this girl means business. Hey there and welcome to the Girl Means Business podcast. You are in store for an absolute amazing episode this week, because it is guest interview week and we have an amazing guest.

Speaker 1:

So today I am chatting with Ludavica Coelho. She is a transformation coach for millennial women. She helps women to be more confident, to step into kind of the role of who they are as a woman, as a leader, as just someone who deserves to kind of be in the seat that they're in. And when I first came across her, I read an article that she contributed to about imposter syndrome, and what really stood out to me was that not only did she discuss imposter syndrome in a way that was really powerful, but she broke down very specifically the different reasons behind imposter syndrome, because a lot of times, I think that we look at imposter syndrome as like this kind of overarching umbrella of like, oh yeah, I have imposter syndrome, I don't think I'm good enough to do what I'm doing. And she really broke it down into like more of the underlying causes behind imposter syndrome and so being able to look at it and go, what is the actual root cause of why I feel like I'm not capable or not good enough to be doing what I'm doing, and then how can I address that specific underlying cause? And so whenever I reached out about having her on the show and we started talking, I was like I really would love for you to break this down for my audience because I think it's so powerful. So that is what she's doing today.

Speaker 1:

In our conversation, we're going to really get into the nitty gritty of what is behind the imposter syndrome. How can you identify where you fall on the scale of like, what's the underlying cause? Can you overlap some of those underlying cause? We get into all of that, and so I'm really excited for you to not only dive into that, but you're going to fall in love with Ludovica just as much as I did. I cannot say enough highly high things about her. She's awesome. So, without further ado, let's get to our conversation. All right, hello, welcome to the Girl Means Business podcast. I'm going to say your name wrong again. I'm so sorry, ludovica.

Speaker 2:

Hello everyone, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1:

Okay, welcome, ludovica, to the Girl Means Business podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you today. I know our topic we're going to be covering is something a lot of women feel and experience and can relate to. But before we get into our topic, please tell us a little bit about yourself, about your story, your business and what it is that you do.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so my name is Ludovica, but you can call me Ludo as well if you can, so that's going to be easier. So I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist and a confidence coach. I have studied in London for many years. I also started my career there in the National Health Service. So I started my career in mental health and then I decided that, you know, when it comes to, I mean, I love psychotherapy is like everything for me. I really like working with clients.

Speaker 2:

But in psychotherapy we often focus on the bad things. You know and we know. We know what we need to move away from. We know the anxiety, the negative thoughts, the unhelpful coping. There is so much focus on that, but we don't talk that much about what we can move towards too. So our ideal self, our authentic self, our values.

Speaker 2:

So I thought that would be nice to have to give my career a bit of a twist and start focusing more on women and confidence. I'm a huge supporter of obviously I'm a feminist. There is even there's no need to specify that but I really love supporting women in their careers and their relationships, and the main thing that I'm focusing on at the moment is teaching women how to break free from people pleasing so they are more in touch with their authentic selves. So, yes, I offer one-to-one coaching. I also offer a course on confident communication, because that's such a big issue when it comes to people pleasing, and so I see so many women today suffering with imposter syndrome. It's a bit of a it almost feels like it's a bit of a trend nowadays to talk about it. So I feel we should raise the awareness also about not just about what it means, but also why we see so many women suffering with it.

Speaker 1:

I could not agree with this more Like I. I love that women are talking about it more. I think it is definitely bringing it to the forefront so that we don't feel so alone in these feelings, because I think for a long time women have felt like, oh, I'm the only one that feels this way or, you know, oh, I should be ashamed that I feel this way. And so talking about it more and putting it out there and the work that you're doing to help women overcome it, I think is so incredible and I'm really excited to get into that today. I will say that for me personally, I have been a people pleaser most of my life. I am working on it. As I get older, I'm starting to kind of work through overcoming my need to feel like I need to make everybody else or be responsible for everybody else's feelings or emotions or how they perceive things that I say or do, and I think that's really, really difficult, and so there's a lot of women out there listening who I think can relate to. They feel the same way.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that I loved when I was like reading about you and learning about you was you wrote an article and you were talking about sort of the five different like archetypes that go along with imposter syndrome or people pleasing, and I would love to get into that, because that is something I never really thought about. I just kind of was like oh, I feel this way, I feel like I'm not good enough or I feel like I need to be doing X, y or Z for the wrong reason. But it never occurred to me that there was maybe different underlying themes behind why each of us feel that way, and then it's not the same for all of us. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2:

same for all of us. So can you tell us a little bit more about that, sure? Um. So we understand imposter syndrome as a persistent fear of being, quote-unquote, found out like we're not good enough and our achievements are not important. We minimize them, we we um kind of ignore them, right. So we don't uh think we don't, we don't think we deserve praise for for what we do and for who we are, and usually high achievers and perfectionists feel it the most.

Speaker 2:

Um, and we know that perfectionism is a it's a it's a it's a big problem. But we know the perfectionist have lots of rules about how they should behave and how they should be in in life, in work, even in the family. So imposter syndrome is not something that happens only in the workplace. It can also happen when it comes to being a mom, for example. I'm not a good mom, people will find out I'm not a good mom, etc. Um, so, depending on the most prevalent rules that you have or that you, let's say your brain created around how you should or should not behave, we can divide um imposter syndrome archetypes in five different categories, and this has been actually um, uh, it's, it's, it's a proposal that Dr Valerie Young did so. She divided imposter syndromes in five different types. So the first one is no surprise the perfectionist. So the perfectionist has the rule that everything needs to be perfect. And again, it can involve career, it can involve the housework, even can involve in the relationships that they have within the family.

Speaker 2:

The superwoman slash superman, because also men suffer with imposter syndrome follow the rule I need to be the most hardworking person in the room room. So people who overwork themselves, people who are burnt out from work, who work overtime, unpaid, you know, people who struggle with taking breaks and feel guilty for resting usually these are people who have you know this rule. Then there is the expert. The expert follows the rule I need to know everything, I need to be the most knowledgeable person in the room and I coached ceos, I coached directors, people running up for partners in big financial companies in london. They all have imposter syndrome and usually they have this.

Speaker 2:

This one is quite prevalent I need to know everything. So they feel like there's always a gap in their knowledge that they need to cover somehow. Then there is the soloist. So the soloist thinks they need to be able to do everything on their own. So they struggle to ask for help. They struggle delegating. That seems to be the biggest problem. They might struggle with other areas as well, but the fact that they associate doing everything on their own with being competent, that's the biggest issue, because obviously they feel less competent, less intelligent, less hardworking, even if they are asking for help.

Speaker 2:

And then there's the natural genius. The natural genius is my favorite because I have a friend who is definitely a natural genius. She's good at everything. She does Like these people are gifted, they are intelligent, they adapt easily to situations and they find like everything comes easy to them. And that has a drawback, though, because some things will not come easy to you at some point in life. That doesn't mean you're bad, that doesn't mean you're a failure, right, and that tends to be the assumption yeah, everything must come easily to me, and if it doesn't, it means I don't have a talent for it.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, so okay. So listening to that, hopefully the listeners kind of has identified something maybe where they fall into quick question is it possible or have you seen that someone could have like an overlap of some of them, like maybe they have like the soloist, but also they feel like they need to know everything, like can you have more than one?

Speaker 2:

definitely yes, most times people will have more than one. Um, I was actually just talking to a client a minute ago and she's a people pleaser and we made a list of the rules. She had rules like I need to help everyone, I need to be liked by everyone, I need to manage other people's emotions, I need to avoid conflicts. So you have already four big rules. But when I asked her which one do you think is the strongest, one is the most impactful, is the one that really drives most of your behaviors? And she immediately said I need to manage other people's emotions. So that was the prevalent one. Obviously, the belief system is layered. You will never find just one belief. That's not possible. You will always have just one belief. That's not possible. You will always have more than one. But there is certainly one hot belief, let's say, that has more impact on you and that you feel that it's hard. It might be harder even to challenge.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Okay. So I want to kind of break down what you just said, because I think this is a good, maybe exercise and you can kind of walk us through this. If someone is struggling with this idea of imposter syndrome and people pleasing and they're like there's, there's things going on, these rules, like you said, that I kind of live my life by and I know they're not really serving me and the tasks, the things I want to accomplish, whether it's, like you said, business, or being a good mom, or even in your relationships and friendships and things like that. So you mentioned that you had her kind of make a list of these rules. So is that like a good starting point If someone's trying to kind of identify, like okay, I have all these things.

Speaker 1:

Like I'm listening to you go through the five kind of types, the five rules, and I'm like I have a little bit of this and a little bit of that and like I'll give an example for me personally. I have like the, the, the one where you talk about like it kind of everything comes naturally. Like I've always been straight. A student School was easy for me, it was not something I struggled with, and then even in my career like before, the businesses I was running when I was a teacher, like everything felt very natural and easy and that helped me believe that, like I'm in the right place, I'm in the right path. And then, when I stepped into this role of well, mom for one, because who knows what we're doing when it comes to parenting- and then, and then the you know the, the business owner role, these ideas of like.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, this should also come naturally. This should also feel like I'm in a I know what I'm doing and so, to go into it going, well, I really don't know what I'm doing and I'm going to make mistakes. That was hard for me and it's still hard for me, and that gives me a lot of imposter syndrome. But on top of that, I also have this idea of like well, I should know all the things, because if I'm the teacher, if I'm the educator, if I'm the quote unquote expert, I should know all the things. So how do we start sort of, I guess, prioritizing what it is, that's like our hot button thing, and then how do we work through those lists?

Speaker 2:

Okay. So making a list of the rules that you think you have, it's certainly a good point. So today we mentioned a few and I'm sure that some of the listeners were like, oh, I have that, I have that. So making a list, certainly it's helpful. It might not be the easiest thing to do it on your own. That's the thing.

Speaker 2:

Some of the rules that we have we are very aware, like I have clients telling me all the time. I'm aware that I need to fix things for people all the time so that they know that, and usually when it comes to that, it's also the more when it comes to these cases. It's also the the most impactful rule because you're aware of it, so you know it impacts on your behavior. Um, so, starting to identify the rules number one thing. Second thing start. You can rate your rules from zero to 100 in terms of how strong they are, okay, how much you believe in them. So 100 being, I believe in it. So once you make a list and you start rating these rules, then you will know that there's one rule that sticks. That kind of is the most impactful and you will see, you will understand, okay, that one probably needs some work. Now, where does that rule come from Is the first thing that we want to see. It's not necessary all the time to go back and see you know the root cause. It's very helpful, but you can start changing the rule even if you are not sure where it comes from, because the the the third thing that you can do is start analyzing the pros and cons of that. Okay, so clearly there are a lot of pros, because otherwise you wouldn't have it.

Speaker 2:

But there are a lot of disadvantages of having that rule and you need to leverage on those, because when you will go and create a more balanced rule, you need to. You need lots of motivation to do that, but we want to do it gradually, like so, for example, if I had the rule, okay, if I had your rule, everything must come easily and perfectly to me. Otherwise I'm not good enough or I'm a failure. Okay, let's focus on the first part. Then that specific rule comes with certain advantages, because in life you were able to do many things Okay, so it pushed you towards bettering yourself, and a disadvantage could be imposter syndrome, for example. So you want to create a more balanced rule by starting to change your behavior and do the opposite things that you usually do Because you want to look at the evidence that you are not looking at right now do because you want to look at the evidence that you are not looking at right now. So this rule probably pushes you to do certain things and to not do other things. For example, you may avoid certain things because you think that if you're not perfect, then it means that you know you cannot learn or you're a failure, right.

Speaker 2:

So I had a client the other day. He was like oh, I got myself a guitar, I started playing a guitar one day and then I stopped playing, although I love music and it's my passion and I really, um, I really wanted it. But I started thinking this is not like, it's not easy for me, shouldn't be. Maybe it shouldn't be that hard, right, it should come more natural, it should be more of a talent. But it's not like that because obviously that's these are skills that you can practice. So he, he stopped playing guitar. So one of the experiments could be okay, let's go and grab that guitar, let's see if you can actually build your skills or if you are really that one that's playing a guitar. You know it's possible, but you don't know you are blocking yourself, you're limiting yourself when, when you follow your rule all the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that you mentioned the pros and the cons, because I think a lot of times we are under the assumption that these are all negative things. You know, again, using my example of things that always can be easy and so I'm like, well, maybe it shouldn't. You know, again, using my example of things that always come easy and sound like, well, maybe it shouldn't. You know, this is a negative thing. I need to fix this, need to correct this, when really there are a lot of pros, like one of those pros and my oldest daughter is a mini version of me, so I'm I'm learning a lot by watching her navigate all of this, and the things that I say to her are, a lot of times, things I'm also needing to say to myself. And a perfect example is she has always been very naturally athletic and any sport that she plays or activity, she just picks it up very naturally and quickly and it has allowed her to feel confident going into scenarios and trying new things that she maybe normally wouldn't you know, would have been hesitant in the past or would have, you know, without that kind of confidence of everything has come easily. To this point I'm going to. I should be able to do this easily as well. And the same with me is like I think there have been things I have stepped into that I would have probably second guessed or hesitated to do if it wasn't for I had a little bit of this confidence of like, oh, I've been able to do these things easily in the past, so this should come easily too. And so I think that's really important to look at not only the negative of this, but what are some of the benefits you have of having these rules and having these thoughts and feelings, because there's obviously pros and cons too, like you said.

Speaker 1:

And then going into like, the more of the cons, I guess is, yeah, there are going to be times when you step into something that is new and different, but you got you, you pushed yourself to do that. Now, like the guitar thing, like now you've got to actually put in the work. And again, my daughter's learning this too, with athletics and sports, is she's naturally gifted at the beginning, but then, when it comes to like actually refining those skills and taking it to the next level, she has to put in the work and she's got to spend the hours practicing and doing the extra things, and so I think that that's really good to recognize a little bit of both. So how can we, let's say that there's a listener and she's like okay, this is, I know, kind of my top rule, that I, it's, it's been a, it has its pros, but it's also has its probably biggest cons. It's stopping me from doing x, y or z. How can we kind of move past that and embrace more of the positive side of it?

Speaker 2:

so one of the rules that maybe we can talk about is I need to be perfect all the time, because it's quite, you know, a rule that quite a few people could have. This is a rule that has lots of advantages, unfortunately, because, first of all, perfectionism is socially condemned. We can say that, you know, it's society happy if you're a perfectionist, if you're burning out and if you're super spent like it always seems like this is the the new normal now.

Speaker 2:

Um, it actually. It actually helps you to avoid objective failure. Like we were saying before, if you don't do the things that you don't do well, then you'd never fail. Also, you never learn, but certainly you never fail. So that's a big pro, because people never feel like, oh, I'm not that good at that. You know, I should be improving myself. And there is a difference between self-reflection and self-criticism, by the way, and some of these two are too often confused as being the same thing. So you can be reflective and realize, oh, maybe I need some improvement on that, but you don't necessarily need to beat yourself up because that's not going to be good anyway. Another advantage of perfectionism is that, well, you fall into the good girl category, right, yeah, so everyone likes that.

Speaker 2:

Everyone seems to be quite happy if they see someone striving for success continuously. Um, but obviously that comes with, uh, with a lot of disadvantages, because in the striving to achieve the standard yourself, you start suffering with anxiety and stress, and when you achieve the standard, it's all good. The problem is that it's just a matter of time before you find another standard, that it's higher than the other one.

Speaker 1:

You know, keep moving the bar further and further yeah, what's perfection then?

Speaker 2:

so we start asking ourselves the question that's an idea, perfection, it's not a thing, right? So what is it? And it changes all the time. That's the problem, um, and then when you don't achieve the standard, then self-criticism kicks in, so you move between being anxious and being, uh, feeling low, feeling bad about yourself. So there is this going up and down. You know, there is this, um, almost like a pendulum moving these two things. Um, and actually perfectionists are high achievers. That's another advantage. They do achieve a lot because, objectively, they do work really hard. But what's the price? That's what we need to ask ourselves when we look for the disadvantages, is what is the price? At what cost is this all happening? And can it be good, but more relaxed? Because also there's that question, you know, do I need to be stressed all the time to achieve things?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so how do we move path? Or how do we work through recognizing, like, the perfectionism, like recognizing that you know the stress and the anxiety is not worth what you know the result is. So how can we sort of overcome that feeling of like, oh, like. I'll just use a really easy example. Let's say, when it comes to um, putting content out for your business, I know a lot of people who are like, well, I can't, I can't post that yet, or I can't put that out into the world yet because it's not perfect yet, it's not completely exactly.

Speaker 1:

Every T is cross, Every I is dotted, every this, every that, and then they end up just kind of pushing things down the road and then nothing ever actually gets accomplished. So how do we one you said we, you know recognizing it, seeing it for what it is, kind of rating it as like this is where it falls in my, in one to a hundred of like how much this is impacting me. But then what are some things we can do that can help us to move past that and actually start putting things out into the world, even if they aren't perfect, or, you know, whatever. The other rules you know are that moving past the negative parts of it.

Speaker 2:

So when we start, you know, identifying the rules, then rating the rules, then looking for pros and cons, and then we have a bit more of a clearer picture, okay, because before it wasn't clear, now it's clearer. We know the pros and cons, we know where it comes from, so we know that it's starting, it's probably a pattern, we know it's probably a habit. We need to understand that patterns and habits done again, we cannot break them overnight. So we need a systematic method. So we usually do is we build another list, um, which is a hierarchy, really? So it can be a 10 item hierarchy, for example, of all experiments that we can do that go against our rule. So is the rule I need to be perfect all the time? Okay, so we build a list of 10, 10 item of experiments that will go against that rule. So can I do something imperfectly today and see what happens? Okay, so we will build the confidence. We will build also the tolerance to uncertainty and the tolerance to whatever negative emotion might come up.

Speaker 2:

Obviously we start with very easy situations because that's what we want to do. We don't want to do, you know, anything crazy. We don't want to scare people away, but initially anything that causes a little bit of discomfort is good, okay. And again, you can rate yourself. You can ask yourself okay, so let's say I want to write an email with a typo, how much anxiety does that cause you? From zero to ten in thinking, even just thinking about that? Maybe a four, okay, and anything between three and four is good as a first experiment. Anything about five is not good as a first experiment. It's too anxiety provoking.

Speaker 2:

But we can get there because the more you start doing these things, the more you start realizing nothing happens, people don't think bad things of you no one is actually thinking about your type, but most times, typos are not even noticed anyway, um, and you start becoming more confident in the idea of that you can manage difficult situations, and that's what real confidence is. It's not. You're not confident when you're good at something. You're confident when you're, when you believe in yourself despite being not good at something.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I like that, yeah, because I think that's something we confuse. I think a lot of people believe that confidence is being good at something you know. It's like oh, I've achieved confidence because I have achieved success in this thing, when I like the way you put it, like the confidence is the ability to know that like you're still good, even if it doesn't work out the way that you thought it would, or you failed a little bit, or you know that's really interesting, cause I, yeah, I think that's a big piece of it. When you talk about people pleasing and imposter syndrome, the it's a lot of it comes back to confidence and I think that's a key piece that you know we have to work on, like you said, building those little building blocks that eventually add up to the bigger thing, um, but starting small in those places yeah, starting small, definitely, and then you can, um, uh, step up, you know, in your hierarchy, you know, and try to do more complex, more difficult challenges.

Speaker 2:

Um, but before stepping up you, you should feel confident in the next step. So let's say you want to move to step two. Okay, what step two? Uh, maybe I can go to work with a, with a I don't know, with something I usually don't wear. For example, I can go to a meeting with a red shirt, okay, so that can be something that's usually, you know, I want to look more professional and like basic. That day I decide I want to wear a red shirt, I don't know. That's the first example.

Speaker 2:

How anxiety provoking does that feel for you? Maybe a five? I don't know what people think of me. You know it's. Everyone is very looking corporate in my job. So you know what are they going to think, et cetera. Okay, when you first, when you did the first experiment and that was a three or a four in terms of anxiety rating and it came down to a three because you did it repeatedly, and then you build the confidence that you can handle the anxiety and everything that comes with it, then you can move to step two, because step two it's a five, but it will go down to a four, to a three, to a two, and when it does that, then you can move to step three. You know, that's how you build the tolerance. Basically, because the idea is that I think sometimes we think we cannot cope with certain situations, so we don't put ourselves out there. But then when we do put ourselves out there and we realize, oh, I can't cope with this, suddenly it's not too bad.

Speaker 1:

But if you didn't do it you wouldn't know. Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, the baby steps, little things, add up to bigger accomplishments further down. And I like the idea that the more you do it, the anxiety level drops, because I think that a lot of times we think like, oh, no, it's just, I'm always going to be at a five for this. I'm just learning to like deal with it. But really we're learning to minimize it so that it's not a five anymore, which is really helpful.

Speaker 1:

So I want to talk about people pleasing in particular, because I think that for a lot of people, especially those of us that are in like a service-based business or even just in our lives in general you know, we the people pleasing aspect transcends kind of everything, because it's it's almost like we're putting other people's well, it is we're putting other people's needs kind of in front of ours, cause we're saying, like my client being satisfied and happy or getting their way is more important than me having my boundaries in my business, or this friend having you know their way is more important than me having my boundaries in my business, or this friend having you know their way is more important than me having these boundaries. So I want to kind of talk a little bit about what people pleasing really is at its core and then how we can maybe move past that Cause I do think that that's something that's not just specific to business, it's our whole life in general.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So people pleasing is the tendency to prioritize other people over your own, and that's not just what other people say. You want or need is everything about others. So it's a self-sacrificing pattern. Basically, you can also call it it's a form of self-abandonment, because the more you focus on other people, as time passes, you forget about yourself and you unlearn about yourself. You don't know who you are anymore. You don't know what you want anymore, you don't know what you need anymore. And that is the main problem is that people pleasers identify with the idea of being people pleasers. They don't idea of being people pleasers. They don't feel like it's a behavior, that it's something that I do, that probably you know. Um, it's just, it's just a random behavior that I should change. No, they. They say I am a people pleaser, yeah, um. And so we need to start discerning the person from the social mask, because that is a social mask. If you were alone on an island, you wouldn't have people leaving, so that's a social mask interesting okay, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So you want to be seen and perceived in a certain way. Usually you want to be liked, usually you want to be embraced, usually you want to be accepted, and so you'll do anything you can to be loved by other people. If that means fixing things for other people, you will. If that means helping other people, you will. If that means not saying your opinion because otherwise it might cause some confrontation or conflict, you will, and that you will lose sight of yourself over time.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I love that. I had never thought of it in the form of like a social mask, or even I love what you said about people pleasing as self abandonment, like that is really like powerful because, like you said, we kind of just think like, oh, I just want to make everybody happy and I just, you know, oh, I'm it's almost like a badge of honor, a little bit of like, oh, I'm self-sacrificing, I'm willing to do things for others, and that becomes, like you said, kind of an identity, piece of like oh, look how good I am, look how kind I am, look how generous I am because I'm doing all these things when really at the core of it, it is us letting go of ourselves. That's really like. That hit hard for me. I was like, oh, wow, that's powerful. So I know that a big piece of like the people pleasing and moving beyond that and trying to kind of correct that is doing more things that are, you know, I don't want to say like self-centered, but focusing on the self for a lot of time.

Speaker 1:

For a lot of people that can feel very, um, self-centered. It can feel like we're, um, you know, being almost too like. I don't want to, I don't want to ruffle feathers. I don't want to. Um, you know, I don't want to cause problems, I don't want to do all the things, but yet that's kind of what we need. So how do you get a balance of like I'm still going to be mindful of others and their needs, but I'm also going to protect my needs and what I want and who I am?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's why there is a big part of my program that focuses on assertiveness, and when we talk about assertiveness, often people feel like that's related to communication and setting boundaries only. But actually assertiveness is about your right to exist as a person. If you're not assertive, you are either passive or aggressive. Okay, if you're on the passive side, you follow the rule that other people are okay and you are not, so that people can say do whatever they want, you need to adapt, you should be agreeable, etc. If you are on the aggressive side which people pleasers don't go that oft, but sometimes they do, because anger is something we all feel and it builds up if you don't express it and when it will build up. Sometimes people, places, can jump from being passive to the other end of the continuum and be aggressive, just very reactive, because they cannot take you anymore. Um, and the aggressive style says I am more important than I am okay, you are not okay in this moment. You need to listen to me. So they scream, they shout, they want to be heard, they impose themselves the assertive style. It's in the middle and it says I am okay and you are okay. So I have the right to voice my opinion. You have the right to voice your opinion. I can say something you cannot agree with that. I can set a boundary. You can say that you don't like it. Okay, I would, so we can negotiate.

Speaker 2:

And then it becomes we are on the same level. It becomes a adult to adult conversation. It's not a child to parent conversation, where one tries to adapt to the other all the time. It's a situation in which you want to honor the other person's needs. You want to respect the other person's, but also you want to respect yourself. Because the problem with people pleasing is that we forget kindness is also self-kindness. We forget that compassion is also self-compassion. You haven't fully developed empathy if you cannot manage empathy. If it empathy with no boundaries, it's, it's. It's a disaster potentially, you know, because you're going to feel everything. You're going to feel all other people's emotions and then you need to step in all the time and manage it for them. So other people are important, of course, and you are also, so it's not, but you are also it's and you are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a coexistence that's great, because I, you know, I think there is a lot of that idea that it's either black or white, it's either you're on this side of the scale or you're on this side of scale. But that idea of the middle ground, that gray area of assertiveness, is really key there. And you meant, you know we talked about before like these little little steps you can do to kind of come out of these imposter syndrome or these different rules that we have. What are some of the little steps people can take? When it comes to people pleasing, if there's someone who is, like always the yes person, like I'm going to, you know, yes, I'm going to agree to whatever you say, even when it comes down to things like where we go eat dinner or bigger things, where it's a client asking for something that's outside of your scope of what you do. What are little ways we can kind of build up to that middle gray ground of us, of, you know, being assertive and standing up for ourselves?

Speaker 2:

so with people pleasers. I think there is another difficulty because when it comes to imposter syndrome, you know more or less how, what you want to, how you want to be. You know you want to be more confident, you want to be more self-assured when it comes to people pleasing, you are, you know what you're moving away from, but you don't necessarily know what you're moving towards because you don't fully know yourself. So that is always the first step what are your needs? That's usually a question that when I ask my clients what their needs are, they're like I don't know. I spend so much time focusing on other people's needs. I have no idea. So what do you need? What do you need in your relationship? What do you need in your job? What do you need from your co-workers, from your friends? You know that's first step Build an internal compass. An internal compass is also made of your values. What do you value out of life?

Speaker 2:

I had a client who was um, um, basically uh, had an altercation with her father because she already had a child, a daughter, but her father wanted her to have another one and she was really focused on her career. So she had no intention. She wasn't planning to have another child, and so she was valuing her independence, her career in that moment. But one of her values is independence, and so he was kind of overpowering her in that moment and she was almost giving, giving in when she realized this is my value, I value my independence. This is going completely against who I am, because there is often an a lack of knowledge about who they are as people.

Speaker 1:

Not as people, please, there's just people just take the first part of the set what do you value?

Speaker 2:

what do you need? The first things to identify and then you can start setting some boundaries, because otherwise you don't really know what you're doing. Yeah, I said no to a friend earlier who asked for my help, so I'm trying to kind of, that's great, but what are you moving towards? You know because here you can what we were talking about before. You know the hierarchy, the list of behaviors. It needs to be repeated. You can't just say no once and then expect to feel better about yourself. It needs to be repeated. Look how many times you said yes when you meant no. Yeah, okay, so it needs to be. I don't want to say the same, but if you're a people pleaser, probably you had many years of that and so now you need to restructure your belief system completely and show up in the world as a different person. So that requires you actively changing your behavior and exposing yourself to this new idea of who you are new identity and needs to happen often, frequent. It needs to be frequent. Yeah, it's like wow, that's yeah.

Speaker 1:

oh my gosh, like I'm having so many moments. It's just like, okay, I need to do this. I need to do that because what you were saying and it kind of like the underlying theme of everything we've talked about today is knowing yourself. You have to know, like you have to know yourself so well in order to do any of the work that we've talked about as far as like becoming, you know, recovering from people, pleasing or moving past these different imposter syndrome feelings you're having. It all comes back to you and I think that there's a movement now towards especially younger people starting off with more of that knowledge of who am I and and what do I stand for and what are my feelings. But for those of us that are in older generations you know, I'm 42, like we weren't taught to to look inward, and so it's almost like rewriting everything that we've kind of known is to go back and go. Okay, no, I need to know, I need to look inwards, I need to figure out who I am and what I stand for and what I want and what I need from people and from myself and from these different situations, and then taking those little steps. And I know I had a thought when you were talking an example of the other night.

Speaker 1:

We my youngest daughter had a school program. We were done, we were going to pick up my other daughter at her tennis lesson and in between I was like, well, do y'all want to, like, grab some dinner? And my go-to they were like, yeah, let's have dinner. I was like, okay, well, what does everybody want? And what typically happens is they say what they want and we go do that, even though it's not what I would want. And I was like, no, in that moment I can say, hey, I really. You know, I'm trying to eat healthier. Can we go to this place or this place where they have options, where I can find something that fits into my diet, as opposed to just going like, well, what do y'all want to do? Cause, I don't want to. I don't want to deal with somebody complaining about they don't like this or, oh, my, this daughter didn't get this, or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Even the little things of like my health is a priority. I need to stand up for that. And then I think, when you know, obviously, business related, it's like these are the boundaries, these are the things that I, you know, I stand for, these are the things that I am willing to do. Anything beyond that, I need to have a firm, you know, like no or a no. However, I can, you know, do X, y or Z, so that you don't feel like you're being so harsh. But wow, that was a big like. I feel like I've just been through a therapy session.

Speaker 2:

Well, believe it or not, one of the first experiments I did with a client was to decide what she wanted for dinner, because she had this habit of just going with whatever the rest of the family wanted. So this is your common thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, it's like that movie with Julie Roberts runaway bride. I love the scene that movie where she's figuring out what kind of eggs that she likes to eat, because she's always just ordered whatever the person that she's been dating or engaged to has always ordered. And I think that came to mind when we were talking about this. I was like, yeah, like, if we spend so much time focused on what is our significant other like or want to do, or what is our friend or our parent or, you know whoever, our coworkers or our clients, then yeah, it's always about somebody else and it's never about us, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you're selfish, it just means that you're taking care of yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but also people around you need you to take care of yourself, like your daughters do need you to take care of yourself, for example. Right, and you're happier and stronger and better if you take care of yourself. So is it selfish or it's just what you know, the natural state of a human being? We should take care of ourselves and others, and these are the two biggest needs of human beings taking care of others and self-actualization. So that's, you know. We can't have one without having the other.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, my goodness. Well, this has been incredibly powerful and so helpful, and I'm very appreciative that you shared your wisdom and your insight with us. I know there's so much more that goes into what you do to help people, so let everybody know where they can find you online, where they can go If they are like I need this person in my life to help me. How can they work with you? What are all the ways they can get in touch with you?

Speaker 2:

Well, I have a website. Maybe I can just give it to you, because it's a bit complicated. Yes, okay, so I can give it to you. And then I have an Instagram page which is my name, ludovica underscore, colella underscore coaching, and they can just contact me via Instagram. On my website there is a form to apply to work with me, so the information is all out there.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, yeah, and I will have your website and your Instagram linked in the show notes so they can easily go and grab that. But thank you so much for your time. This has been incredible. I know everybody listening is going to take some amazing takeaways from this, so it's been well worth the time and your energy. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for tuning in this week. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to take a screenshot, share it to social media and don't forget to tag. Girl means business and, as always, we greatly appreciate any reviews you leave for this podcast. Thank you so much for being here and we'll see you next week.

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Kendra Swalls

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