Overconfidence [EP:149]

Understanding the Dunning-Kruger Effect in the Hair Industry

In this episode, Jen and Todd delve into the Dunning-Kruger Effect, a cognitive bias where people with limited knowledge overestimate their abilities. 

They discuss how this phenomenon manifests in the hair industry, from new graduates to seasoned professionals, and relate their own experiences in their salon.

They talk about the signs of false confidence, the reality check often needed for true growth, and the importance of mentorship and continuous learning. 

Jen highlights cases from their industry where individuals either thrived or failed due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

The conversation also touches on broader implications, such as the culture of social media and its impact on professional development.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:04 Exploring the Dunning-Kruger Effect
02:20 Real-World Examples in the Hair Industry
03:17 Challenges Faced by New Stylists
06:11 The Importance of Continuous Learning
07:44 The Role of Educators and Mentors
10:56 The Reality of Running a Business
28:19 Concluding Thoughts and Advice

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Transcript

149
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Todd: [00:00:00] All right, what's up everyone? Happy Monday. How's it going, Jen? Good, good. All right, today we are talking about the Dunning Kruger effect. So, this is just a fascinating thing to me, and I don't know why, but it's always, it's always sort of held my interest for, I don't know, a bunch of reasons, but if you're not sure what the Dunning Kruger effect is, I think it was like 1999 when these two guys were researching this, and they found that people with Very limited skill set in a specific topic would drastically overestimate their ability, if that makes sense.

So it's sort of this cognitive bias. And what happens is people get like a tiny bit of knowledge in something. And this can be anything this, this, we can relate this to hair. This can be somebody coming out of hair school. It could be someone in hair school. It can be an apprentice situation. It could be somebody in business.

It could [00:01:00] be. I'm sure it happens to doctors, pilots, whoever, you get a little bit of knowledge in something. And for some odd reason, our confidence goes through the roof when it really shouldn't be through the roof. And you get to a point where they actually call it I think it's called Mount stupid is how they describe it because it spikes and you have very little knowledge about even what you're talking about, but your confidence is super high.

Okay. And then what happens from there is if you are somebody that sticks with it, which is, I think, difficult for people when you realize that you don't know everything. I think that's where a lot of people start quitting. What happens is if you do stick with it, as time goes, you start to realize you have less, you start to realize how much there is to learn.

And you start to have less confidence and you actually go through what they refer to as the valley of despair, which is where you're like, [00:02:00] I'm never going to understand this. There is way too much for me to understand. And then you deal with things like I guess what they refer to as like imposter syndrome, where you're like, how am I even here?

I, I'm not good enough to be here. And that's when like reality starts to set in. And then eventually it comes back up and people will Master whatever skill. So I sent out an email and then Jenna, I'll let you dive in here, but I sent out an email to our email list and just ask the question, where do we see this in the hair industry?

Do you have any answers for that? Or 

Jen: I mean, you see it throughout everything, people coming out

Todd: yeah, yeah, I

Jen: they're

Todd: answered the email again with what I, what I thought I saw, but I'm curious of what you think. 

Jen: I think the way I see it is, well, in our salon, they come in and I think people realize, well, I have a lot to learn. So they get a little bit of that reality check right away. [00:03:00] And then

Todd: this student? What are you, who, who are you talking about? Who's that

Jen: coming

Todd: clients?

Jen: Well, no, I said people coming out of school.

Todd: Okay. Gotcha. Okay. I didn't hear that part. Sure.

Jen: That we hire at our salon, a reality check right away. Well, we train our staff, but then I do see probably about a year or so in. Those same stylists are kind of like, I want to raise my prices. I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do that. And yet they've not put in a ton of work. Right. So this is where I think that they think they're here. And one year in, and it's like, you still have so much. technical part to build on, I think, before you start moving in that direction. And then, you know, as they progress, same thing. If they want to put in the work and they want to put in the effort and they're not bombarded by everything that they need to learn and they can focus on the things they need to learn, then, you know, they probably, I guess what you said, like, stick with it long enough until they [00:04:00] hit the valley of despair or whatever.

And then they're like, Whoa, okay, I can do this. And I realized now the work that it's going to take to get where I want to be.

Todd: I'm pulling up my email so I can use that as reference here.

I had,

Jen: have, oh god,

Todd: I was just going to say, I remember as I, as I pull this up, it's kind of annoying. Anyways, I was using MailChimp, but I had somebody reach out an email. Because I asked a question in my first email, and then I there's kids everywhere, so sorry. I asked what people thought and where people saw this happening, or if they had examples of it.

And one person had written back, basically, they knew a stylist that worked for a little bit, couple years, quit for a little bit, couple years. And then without, like, sort of refining their skills, decided that they were going to go off and rent a chair because they were in that position or whatever of knowing everything and knowing how to run a business and whatever, [00:05:00] and they failed.

And I think that sucks, but I also think that it's an interesting example because we've seen it several times, not just with our salon, other places, but certainly people from our salon that, I guess trying to be kind here, but leave without really a clue. And then they end up falling sort of flat on their faces or having two or three jobs to try to pay their rent.

And I don't wish that on anybody, but I think where I'm coming from, I guess with this whole questioning of this is how, like, is it possible to even help these people? I don't know if it is. That's a genuine question. So I asked the email list and it seemed like I didn't ask them specifically, like if.

If they thought it was possible to help but examples of where they saw this and I wanted to bring it back around to I think we need to start asking questions like can we help some of these people or is this just like a process and I'm as I'm saying these these are like popping into my brain is this just like a [00:06:00] process for some people like to to weed out the field like not everybody's gonna succeed is this just how like the universe makes it so that makes sense Transcribed

Jen: Yeah. 

Todd: I definitely had new hair pros, barbers and cosmetologists on here because you see that all the time.

Somebody is like we've seen it. We've had people in interviews that are like, I am absolutely amazing. I'm so good. And the confidence is insane. And it's,

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: it's a real thing. Like these people think that they are super talented and no one can touch them and they should be educating and all this stuff like wild, wild stuff.

I,

Jen: it comes down to can they do it and they, they can't and that's where they're like, whoa.

Todd: yeah. And again, some people I, I, I, I'm interested on what happens when some people push through this and, and do become masters, because not all do. Some, some stay in that, I guess I'll say, like lying to themselves or this, they create this falsehood about how [00:07:00] good they are, but they never actually are progressing.

They just keep repeating that they're so good at something. Again, this doesn't necessarily have to be hair. So I had next on my list was salon and shop owners. I think that there are a lot of salon and shop owners. I talked to one. I remember when I was in school who was just like condescending and they were like now they didn't know me.

So they didn't know that I already was building a business and that this would be our third business we were building or fourth or whatever. But they were like, you have too much to worry about. Like being an owner is above your like pay grade basically right now, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I already own fucking businesses guy, but okay, you keep telling yourself how awesome you are.

You know what I mean? And some, again, some of those places have closed. What else did I have? I had educators on here, so anybody can be an educator. It's not like this. prestigious thing. I think that there are far more bad educators in hair from what I've seen [00:08:00] than good educators in hair, and I stand by that.

I'm not being a jerk. From what I've seen,

Jen: And

Todd: I would say What's that?

Jen: I said I would agree. And I'm in that world.

Todd: Yeah, you educate. So I'm interested. I want to get your thoughts on this, but I wanted to run through of what I had on my list first. But I would say eight out of 10 classes that I've been to are not good.

Jen: Mm-Hmm.

Todd: And then there are some that occasionally, and it's always such a treat and you stay in touch with those people.

And, and, yeah. Try to form relationships because there are some that are really, really good and I've noticed the difference it just this is just my two cents and if anybody wants to come at me, come at me. But the difference that I've noticed is the good ones make it about the people that are there to learn

Jen: Right,

Todd: the bad ones.

Are there to make it about themselves and tell their story about how they were riding a train car in San Francisco and hooked on drugs and now look at them and hair change their life and blah blah blah and look, I'm happy for you, [00:09:00] but I really don't care about your fucking life story right now. I'm here to learn a technique.

Show me your stupid haircut so that I can get out of here. We're going to lunch after this because you already lost me because I don't, I'm not here for you. And now I would imagine there's a whole, as I say that there's a whole group of people that are there for them. They're there because they're, they're shocked that they're around somebody with 100, 000 followers on Instagram.

Like that's what they think, you know, the world is, but I don't, I don't particularly live in that world. So I, like, I don't see that and

Jen: Well, those are the people that aren't really there to learn, they're there to say they went to a class, they're never going to

Todd: tag tag the person that I.

Jen: and think that that's enough for them to like, build up their like, resume, I say resume in quotes, but build up like, like, took all these classes, like, okay, but did you do anything with that?

And did you put the work in? Again, these are the people that stay at that beginning of the process. Of the, the Dun and Kruger. And then those that actually put [00:10:00] in the work, want to learn and, and apply what they're learning. And those are the ones that grow and maintain and are still in the industry.

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Todd: and, and then there's the people that are faking it still, I, I see people that are owners, people that are in the business for 20 to 30 years that are still doing the same things and blaming everyone else, and I'm like, you're not progressing because of you,

Jen: or

Todd: the issue, it's not,

Jen: Gotcha.

Todd: you're having trouble hiring because of you, no one wants to stay at your place because of you.

It's not that people want to go rent a chair and that chair rental is awful. It's that you don't know how to deal with building a team, or you don't know how to build a business, so you're just blaming other stuff when you should be blaming you. That brings me to my next thing, which was a little bit of comedy because I like to be funny with stuff, but I wrote in here for, certainly for shock value, but 90 percent of renters.

So, 90 percent is definitely a made up number, I have no [00:11:00] idea how many, but I would say just based on guessing, I would say half of the people that rent, that, that I've seen, or, the sort of archetype of people, half of them probably shouldn't be, if that makes sense. Either pick, pick something, pick something, it doesn't, that's, that's what I'm saying, I'm, I'm just guessing here on averages and stuff, and You have people that so drastically overestimate their skill set.

They so drastically overestimate where they are in life and, and all this other stuff, and they value things that don't matter, like Instagram likes or whatever. So you, what happens is, and I wrote this in my email is we need more candor. Which is just explaining to people reality, and

Jen: hmm.

Todd: just be frank with people because I, and I know people don't always like that style, like that approach, and I like to be blunt with people because I want people to be blunt with me.

If something is a mistake, you should tell me it's a mistake so I don't hurt myself or someone else. You know what I'm saying? So I think we need more [00:12:00] candor in the industry and less you go boss, babe, like just because somebody told you you're a fucking boss, babe, on Instagram doesn't mean, you know, your ass from your elbow.

And that's why people are failing at this renting thing because , they have no clue. But also I don't necessarily know. I mean, it, it ultimately breaks down. To ourselves and our own individual actions, but you don't know what you don't know. That's the point of this whole thing. So like, we've had people leave our salon that we're like, Hey.

You probably shouldn't do this. Here's why. And they still make their own choice, you know, and, and they go and it is what it is. So several people don't, they aren't doing well,

Jen: Right.

Todd: just going to say that. And I'm not trying to be mean, but you know, if you can't pay your chair rent, you probably shouldn't be renting a chair.

It doesn't even make sense. But.

Jen: Right.

Todd: have to write and I, I don't know, I'm not talking about anyone specific. So if anybody's listening and they're like, that's me, no, it isn't. I'm not talking about you because [00:13:00] I'll tell you right now, I don't follow any of these people or go on Instagram to check up on people or whatever, but

Jen: No, the scenario's real and we see it and hear it all the

Todd: yeah. And I feel like people have to write like owner or independent stylist, like, and, and that's just like,

Jen: think they think that

Todd: a status.

Jen: successful

Todd: Yes, that's the status part. It's, it's just like when we were talking about obsessing over educators that have 100, 000 followers. Really? But what do they, what do they teach? What do they bring to the party?

I don't care that they went viral in India from some TikTok dance that they did. Like, just because you have followers doesn't necessarily mean that those followers are even in this industry or even that anybody knows you. If that makes sense.

Jen: Mm hmm.

Todd: So, and again, none of this is meant to be an attack. I wrote this in my email as well.

It's just a thought experiment. Like I genuinely want to know if there's anything we can do to help. This was something that we saw a lot of in the gym world. So when I had my gym for people listening, if you haven't heard the story before, I was a [00:14:00] CrossFit affiliate for 10 years. And to be a CrossFit affiliate, it's a very minimal requirement.

You have to go to a two day class. Now, I went to school for exercise and nutrition. Okay. And the amount of stuff I learned in my, I went to a certificate program and the amount of stuff I learned in there was insane compared to the two day course that I had to do for a CrossFit certification. And the amount that you would learn from like a college degree program for exercise science would be insane compared to what I learned in a certificate program.

So my point is we would always have these people that would do these two day certificates Come back and think that they're a coach now because they did a workout and learned a couple of like technical names for

Jen: and got a certificate that somehow people think that gives them value.

Todd: Yeah, and in the gym world, if you haven't heard me tell this story before we don't have licensure. [00:15:00] So a lot of people are like, well, without licensure, you wouldn't be a professional. Not necessarily because you could, that whole argument just blows my brain. We're going to have to record soon on this cause it keeps coming up over and over.

Anyways, but let's, let's go back and let's get your thoughts on this stuff, Jen.

Jen: so I, I think

Todd: And I can remind you of the list if, if you need, can

Jen: a renter standpoint, let's say I've seen people go and I, I think they think it's easy, right? Like I can do it better. Cool. I, whatever salon you're working at, you can do it better. That's where you're at. And then you get out there and you realize, Holy crap.

Like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Technically. I have no idea what I'm doing. I know some,

Todd: I interrupt you for one second, that the way you just phrased that, that's not so in my, in my mind. And you can continue with your thought in a second, but in my mind, that's not necessarily renters that could be business owners too, because we see that often where a business somebody will leave say a salon even, and they'll go [00:16:00] open their salon.

And they're like, I can do this better. And it's the same thing.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it goes across the board. What I see trending over the last few years is that people are under roofs. Other any business you're probably at, and you're like, I can do it better. And I'm going to do it better. I'm going to do all of these things. And then until you, you walk in that actual, like the walk, the walk, walk, the steps, do the things, and then you're like, Whoa, everything I thought, say you're a business owner, you're like, I'm gonna open my own salon, everything I thought I could offer and do all this stuff.

If I do all of that, my business will close. I will not be profitable. Holy crap, didn't realize that, right? So now you strategically need to either take steps back, take things away. And you're like now looking like a shithead owner when really you just had no fucking clue. And that's. Just life like there's a lot of people that like that's their path, and then they're like now What do I do and before you know it you're running your salon?

Just like the other one because you don't have enough time to or money to hire a mentor Or to get better at what you're doing and you have to make a [00:17:00] quick pivot or you're not gonna sustain see these

Todd: And that's and that's due to the Dunning Kruger effect. Do you think? Because they think that, they're like, oh, I can run this business because I've seen someone else run a business. Interesting. Yeah.

Jen: can do

Todd: Yeah. It makes

Jen: you actually do the work like you could you could watch me do a haircut, right? Let's just say that and you're like, oh, that's so easy I can totally do that until you pick up your scissors and your comb and your clips and you have your model and you start To do it and then you're like wait, where does she even start like but in the minute of you watching me do it You're like I got this and that's just That's reality.

And I love the confidence and I think it's great. But when we coach people, we're like, yes, you got this, but let's step back 10 steps to what you need to do in order to really get this and then be successful. But nobody wants to do those steps before. So the confidence they have in that beginning, just, you know, of almost catapults them into a situation that foremost are going to fall flat on their face.

And then they only know what they know. So they're now doing the same thing under a new [00:18:00] roof and they are clueless and probably wicked stressed out. I see it. I know some people that have reached out that went out on their own into suites and They technically don't have, they have so many issues that like they didn't realize, and unfortunately for most of them, when I talked to them, I'm like, why wouldn't you go back to a salon and like, just keep moving, whatever.

But they look at that as such a failure or step back when they are sort of failing in their own right. But that kind of title of independent and all of these things is what, like, everyone's giving them the boss babe for, so like, no, I have to stay on this path when the path's not working. Rather than sit back, reevaluate, and be like, hey, your path can just take a turn and you can get back there, you know, but the confidence that led them there, now they're in that, whoa, I don't know anything, but rather than take a step back to learn more, they're kind of trying to push through, which

Todd: That's, that's interesting that they view going to work for a salon or making a change as a failure and then refuse to take action on it. I would [00:19:00] look at that as, yes, it's 100% a failure. You failed. Sorry, this is what I'm talking about. We need more candor. We need more. Right.

Jen: with.

Todd: Now, the question becomes, what are you going to do about it?

Because failing, how many times have we failed at hello? I mean, the business hasn't closed, but we've made so many mistakes because we're human beings.

Jen: Mhm.

Todd: I think you get to a point where, and hopefully this isn't me drastically overestimating my ability here, but. I think you get to a point where you realize that you don't need, you don't know everything and you do in fact need help or you need a mentor or you need your business partner to rely on to pull you back in and be like, Hey, you're making a mistake.

You know what I mean?

Jen: Yeah,

Todd: don't do that. I don't view that. If somebody was renting a salon suite and they couldn't make it and they decided to go work for a salon, say a commissioned salon, right?

Jen: Mm

Todd: don't view that as a bad thing. I do that. I do view your venture as a failure though. You failed.

Jen: hmm, right,

Todd: [00:20:00] And I think that we need to be okay with that.

It's okay to fail at stuff. It's not okay. What I'm saying is then to stay there and just, I guess, let your ego sort of

Jen: right

Todd: hold, hold you stagnant. And you're just going to like, what, live your life as a failure. You let that one moment define your entire existence. Like that's sad to me, if that makes sense.

So go ahead and sorry.

Jen: fails are normal and

Todd: Yeah.

Jen: To be expected.

Todd: normalize.

Jen: and in some of those scenarios, I will coach people just quickly, like, Hey, hire a mentor to either teach you, get your skill level up. And then you can find somebody that can help you with your business sense. And at least you're doing work to try to like move forward.

Right. of them have done that because like, yeah, what a great idea. And then that's either too much effort or maybe they can't afford to do that. And now they're in another situation, but all of those things need to happen for that to change. I'd say on the other side of that, you have somebody Corey and I talk about this a lot.

We've been doing hair over 25 years have almost come to a point where now we're like, We sometimes feel we [00:21:00] know nothing, which we know so much, but we realize how much more we could learn or how much more we want to be better at haircutting or, or doing certain things with color that we're like deep diving into who can give us the best theory and who can show us different things. Because there's so much ahead of us that if we want to keep doing this career, we could be even better rather than just staying like where we are today. And there are times where we talk about this, where we're just like, I feel like 25 years in and I'm still Brand new at this, you know, and that's a weird kind of place to be too.

Cause then you think like, Oh, they must be so confident. And yet sometimes we're like, Whoa, no, I feel like I'm still learning how to cut hair at times. But we're with that being said, we're, we're taking classes together. Her and I are doing haircuts together. Like, what can we do to get more creative and be better at what we're doing? And so we're able to. Make more fun and have more fun and be creative because of the experience we've had. But when you get to be where we're at, you see ahead of you and you're like, there is so much learning that we could still be doing, which is crazy. Cause you have some people coming out of school and like, [00:22:00] they're like, well, those people have nothing left to teach me.

You're like, Oh my gosh, you have no idea.

Todd: Yeah, I've heard that so many times, and I'm like, that's wild that you would say that, because you haven't learned anything.

Jen: There's so much to learn. It's, it's

Todd: It's almost like people, when they come out of school, will admit that they don't know anything, but then want the credit for knowing everything. Like, they want the, I went to, well, I went to school.

They get to say that, but they also say, school didn't do anything but prepare me for the test. Well, which one is it? It's gotta be one or the other, right? I don't think you can have

Jen: no

Todd: both of those things.

Jen: of where you

Todd: If school only prepared you to take a test, then shut up because you don't know anything. Don't come at me with the other side of the coin, which is, you know, you know everything.

And I appreciate confidence just as much as you do. I love confidence. When confident people walk in the room, when you're having a day and you feel confident, it's amazing. But this false confidence is, it gets a little old.

Jen: I think on the school thing is people trash them all the [00:23:00] time. And it drives me insane. matter what, whatever you showed up day one for school and the day you graduated, you know, way more than you did on day one. So you cannot discredit that. And if you can't see that. See that and all you can focus on what they didn't teach you.

Trust me, they covered everything, whether you retained it or not is on you. So don't be a shithead and don't talk bad about the school. Schools are there to get you the hours you need and to give you as much information as you can retain. That's on you. Most people can't retain a bunch. That's normal.

That's why you have work to do after you can't come out of school being an expert. You come out of school that now you are licensed to do the job. What you do

Todd: You're licensed to start learning.

Jen: job. Yeah. I never sat on my ass. I always busted my ass. I always was watching whoever and getting mentored and and being in uncomfortable situations and asking for a constructive criticism.

None of it was comfortable, but I understood sort of a little bit of where I wanted to be. And I understood that it took some hard, hard things or conversations to get there as fast as I could. I didn't want to wait. You know, I never blamed school for what I didn't [00:24:00] learn. So thank you very much. I had a great experience and now I'll take my piece of paper and go do better things.

Todd: Yeah. That piece of paper just allows you to start learning. It allows you to start in theory, your practice, you know, and

Jen: We need a license. It gives you the license to do the work. And no matter what, you know more than you did when you started.

Todd: yeah, I think schools do a fine job. I think there are some mistakes and flaws in schools and I do think that schools could be better, but that's a different podcast. That's a, I think licensure thing. But

Jen: big thing with like what you're talking about Dunning Kruger is like people take advice sometimes as It's 100 percent of what they should do. You know, I've seen scenarios of like people that are out on their own and they're very successful and they'll look at people coming at school.

You should just do what I do. You're going to be so successful, except they are not where you are in life. So they may be very successful, but if they took Where you are today and did the same thing. Their success is going to be extremely different because they didn't put in the time in the work. I think there [00:25:00] are certain people that can thrive in all situations.

And I we're seeing right now people that Have put in their time and effort and certain things they miss in life Which is culture and community and and being in a great environment and they don't look at as a step back They look at as a step forward again. Those people are kind of that Dunn and Kruger on the other side They're like I have so much to learn like what Cory and I talked about who can help teach me who can help get me There

Todd: do you have an example of that? Like you said, we're seeing,

Jen: Well, we have someone in Hello that owns their own business and then has come in and

Todd: oh,

Jen: in our

Todd: yeah,

Jen: on Friday, you

Todd: yeah,

Jen: to be more inspired and see new clients that they're just not getting where they work. And they're an employee under us. It's just

Todd: that's interesting. Cause I have. I have people that ask, they're like, so do they rent from you? And I'm like, we're not a rental

Jen: No.

Todd: business.

Jen: they see the value

Todd: They come to us as an employee. Yeah.

Jen: and this person, she's a lash artist. She's not coming in. We're not teaching her lashes, but what she's getting out of us is the, is [00:26:00] the community and the culture of being an environment. And she even said, like, she's like, I feel like when I come in here and fries, I want to dress up and be part of your staff and do all this, like things that she just hasn't had.

So she's. finding ways to get inspired in her career that are not necessarily technical. And it's fun to watch and like, it's fun to be around her. But that's somebody on the other side of the effect. That's like, I have so much left in this career. Like, what do I need out of it? Right. 

Todd: Yeah. You have to be humble enough to ask yourself that. And then you have to be even more humble to accept the answer, which is probably going to be uncomfortable. You know, I don't think it was uncomfortable for her because she's a very she's a grounded person, I guess, is what I would say. She's very level headed and comes across as confident, I would say.

In a good way, not overly. And yeah, I forget where I was going with that, but anyways, here we are. But I

Jen: Oh God.

Todd: was just going to say, it's just such a fascinating thing to me. And I don't know if there's a solution. I I'm the [00:27:00] more I think about it. I think maybe it's just the universe's way of sorting through people that weren't going to make it anyways.

So let's fail you a little faster. And give you an opportunity to go try a new career, I guess, or try a new approach, even. I don't know if you necessarily need a new career. We know right now that what is the average life of a, of a stylist is like five years or something like that.

Jen: It's say three to five, I think is about where it's

Todd: Is it three to five?

So I, I don't think that the trends that I'm seeing, like the cultural stuff with social media and the education, everyone's a fucking educator now. Right. And so all this stuff that you see, I don't think that's helping. And I think that you will see an effect where more people are dropping out quicker

Jen: Mm

Todd: in the future, rather than staying, even though you're seeing the numbers go up, so like there are more.

Cosmetologists whatever estheticians coming into the field. But what is the number look on the other end? Like, are they dropping off even faster than they were dropping off before? Are they aging out? Like, I have no idea. Like those are, would be [00:28:00] interesting things to look at and see in real time. I don't know if you can get that information that quick because it's.

Jen: know.

Todd: It's going to take you

Jen: be

Todd: a couple of years.

Jen: a lot of people come out of the industry and they still hold on to their license. So

Todd: Yeah, correct.

Jen: they're still licensed, and they are, but they're

Todd: They're not practicing anything, right? They're not doing anything. So

Jen: Right.

Todd: interesting stuff. If you guys, do you have anything else, Jen? I think that's good.

Jen: I was just going to say, I think the big thing, to me, a takeaway from what we're talking about today is if you maybe took a jump and you were like, I got this, I'm going to do all this stuff. And you're like, holy shit, I don't know where I am. If you truly love. whatever job you're doing, you may just need some coaching to get where you want to be.

And it may be a marathon to get there, but if you're going to have to hire mentors or find people to help you get where you need to be, whether it's on the business side or on the technical side jump can hopefully get you where you want to be, but you're going to put some work in. That's all.

Todd: Yeah, sure. All right. Anyways, interesting stuff I wanted to talk about and we'll probably talk about it again. But if anybody out there is [00:29:00] listening, shoot us a text message on the fan mail and let us know what your thoughts are. If you have some sort of a solution, if you've seen somebody go through this, maybe you've seen a friend, we've all had a friend or somebody that's gone through this.

Where you're like, you should not be doing this, but they just do it anyways. Yeah, shoot us a message. Alright, thanks everyone, bye.

Jen: Bye.

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