Marie Kieffer [EP:159]

Empowering Community through Service and Connection: Insights with Marie Kieffer

In this episode, Jen and Todd sit down with Marie Kieffer to discuss their experiences in the hair industry. 

The conversation flows from light-hearted introductions to more profound topics. Marie shares her inspiring journey from opening a successful salon to becoming an educator. 

Jen and Marie emphasize maintaining high standards while fostering team improvement and discuss the crucial role of connection and effective communication in building trust within the community. 

They navigate topics like accountability, career progression, and the significance of creating jobs and safe spaces through entrepreneurship. 

The trio also tackles dealing with competition, the power of kindness, and leading with service. 

The episode concludes with a reflection on the importance of outreach and continuous learning and details on connecting with Marie through Instagram and booking her for classes.

00:00 Introduction and Opening Takes
01:07 Jen's Journey with Hello Salon
02:37 Marie Kieffer's Background and Mentorship
03:53 Marie Reflects on Life Choices
05:03 Marie’s Professional Journey
16:13 The Importance of Communication in Hairdressing
37:43 Understanding the Importance of Rules
38:31 Tools and Techniques in Hairdressing
39:53 The Journey to Becoming an Educator
45:53 The Role of Accountability
50:11 Navigating the Salon Industry
53:56 The Value of Being Different
01:07:53 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

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Transcript

159 Marie Kieffer
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Todd: [00:00:00] Happy Monday, everyone. We are joined today by Marie Kieffer. excited to have Marie with us.

Jen: So fun.

Todd: yeah, you guys, you guys I'm sure we'll talk about it, but you guys spent some time together traveling and teaching and learning and all that fun stuff. But let's start with our opening takes, Jen.

Jen: Are you going to go first?

Todd: Me?

Jen: Yeah.

That always helps.

Todd: sure, I'll

Jen: Okay, great.

Todd: I have a fun one,

Jen: Okay.

Todd: So I heard this quote from a high level athlete. I think they had one. I forget it was on a podcast maybe. And they had won the like men's lacrosse championship in college, like three years in a row or something like that. And one of his quotes was you can always tell the team that's going to win. Because there's one team out there that's throwing the ball around and running their drills. And then the other team is watching that team. And I was like, huh,

Jen: That's cool.

Todd: total sense. Yeah. [00:01:00] Sorry that was so short, Jen. What do you got?

Jen: Okay. See, I'm good. I'm ready to go now. All right. So,

Todd: You can throw Marie on the spot

Jen: well, I'm going to talk a little bit about Marie cause that's going to be my opening take. Cause that's sort of how we got here. So when we first opened Hello as a, Most of you know, I was, I had closed my first salon that I had had a business partner with, and it was just a really crappy time.

And we were trying to find our footing for hello. And the reason why Todd and I partnered together was I wanted to do something different. I wanted to be better. I wanted to be all the things I could think that I could do. And as we started building out, hello and opened it and started building the staff and all of that, I realized it was going to be very fucking difficult to become the person that I truly wanted to be.

And there was a ton of. adult temper tantrums within that process. I don't know why I thought it would be easy and I don't know why it was as Extremely difficult as it was to grow into who I am today. Along the way, I realized I was sort of just complacent in doing hair. Hair was there. I was doing it.

I was great [00:02:00] at it. I really didn't have to think about it. Just show up to work, do it and go home. Cool. And then I started to figure out sort of certain things I wanted within Hello, which was a color line, which was products. I needed to be around fun. That's how we found Evo through Sullivan and Tyler and Keri.

And. One day kind of just found this color swatch book of this new color line. Hubris was being sort of coming into North America and there was a class that I could go take to learn about the color line. And there was some teaching that they had talked about, but really I was just like, let me just figure out if this color lines, even for our, our brand and what we're trying to build.

Fast forward, I go to Philadelphia, I meet Marie. Who is here today. And what I didn't realize is that I needed a mentor or somebody to kind of kickstart my journey and redid that for me, it got me to look at Marie. And I was like, I want to be like Marie. And I hadn't really found anyone that I was like, looked up to.

Like, I want to be like this person. Like they come into a room and they have a presence and [00:03:00] people look up to them, but they're fun and they're not taking themselves so seriously and can offer so much guidance. And so. That began my journey with Marie and how we are here today and sort of my footing to be who I am today.

So thank you.

Marie: and then we got to go to Australia

Jen: yes, and so many wonderful things.

Todd: So, let Marie do an opening take if she wants. But before I want to point out one thing, I'm going to, I'm going to point out that I'm pretty sure you stole that swatch book. Weren't you not allowed to

Jen: Yeah, I think so.

Todd: it wasn't even out yet. Okay.

Jen: I'm a klepto sometimes.

Todd: someone showed me this. No, they were trying to hide it from you and you, you commandeered

Jen: Yeah, that's true. I love that.

Todd: do you have any opening thoughts? They don't even have to be related to the show.

Marie: I was kind of wondering if I was going to have to do this. Cause I've been listening to the podcast, obviously.

Jen: You pay more attention than I do.

Marie: well, it's, I always from a young age have tried to set myself up [00:04:00] to be the best version of myself. And I think by doing the research, by listening to a podcast that you're going to be on, it sets you up to do those things. I was hanging out with a bunch of friends last night. It was our friend's birthday. And I looked at them and like, you know what? I'm really grateful for all of the things I did in my twenties put me here today. Right? So I think it's easy to really get trapped in that moment of life and worry about what's going to happen in the future. But sometimes if you just live life, you're accountable for your choices and your actions, but you just let life guide you. You get to look back and be like, Oh, I actually made some really hard choices. a salon owner, not going to parties. Cause I was going to go educate. Like I made some really hard choices, but because of those hard choices, I get to have a lot of fun right now.

So I'm really grateful for that. And it was cool to look back at that with a group of friends that I've had since my twenties. [00:05:00] So,

Jen: Love it.

Todd: Very cool. So, all right, let's jump into a little bit of background on Marie so that our audience can. Get to know her a little bit more. So Marie, you are a wife,

Marie: yes.

Todd: hair pro, you are a salon owner of the Verve Salon in, I forget the town, but Wisconsin. Weston, is it?

Marie: Wasp. Yeah. Weston.

Todd: Weston. And, an educator.

Marie: am.

Todd: How you, it's funny that you were just talking about your past because I want to go back like a little bit and we don't have to go crazy in depth, but where did you grow up?

What was that like? And what led you, I guess what led you to where you are now? Hard choices, we already know.

Marie: yeah, yeah. I grew up in. in Illinois. I went to a fairly high school. I [00:06:00] played sports my whole life. I was always a three sport athlete. and then my, between my junior and senior year, I decided I wanted to have fun with my friends. And so I wasn't practicing. I wasn't working out.

I wasn't doing all the things. And then I didn't make the volleyball team my senior year and it destroyed me. And of course at that time it was everyone else's fault. It wasn't my fault. Like, I didn't get picked because I was too short. I didn't get picked because they liked so and so better. When in actuality, I was hanging out with my friends and not practicing.

So therefore, I didn't make the volleyball team. I can look at it now and see that. But that set me into a different trajectory. I started hanging out with skaters. I started like doing my hair really funky. So I started to rebel against the person I was because I was so angry in that moment. But it opened my eyes to a whole different spectrum of people that I didn't [00:07:00] even know existed. A whole different spectrum of culture, of music, of intensity. And then, you know, I was then the art school dropout and then I found beauty school and I was like, Oh my gosh, I get to do art. I can make some money. My aunt who is my life mentor has been a hairstylist her whole life. So I was like, I get to go work with her. So it was just all of those really weird, hard decisions and hard life lessons that led me to doing hair. And it was the first thing as a 19 year old. That I didn't wake up late for. I would go into school early. stay late. I would come in on weekends. Cause I actually just loved what I was doing. And then I moved to Wisconsin to work with my aunt and then I started educating for Redkin two years after I started doing hair, because I was like, I needed something different, right? Like being stuck behind the chair per se [00:08:00] wasn't for me. So I needed something bigger. And then through the education journey, again, getting opportunities like, Oh, can I go teach this class?

Or do I go to a concert with my friends? A lot of times I chose to go to bed early to go teach the class because I knew it would further my career. It would give me more opportunities. Then I bought the salon from my aunt, which whoever gave a 29 year old. that kind of loan in 2009, after like everything had

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: That was after the housing crash, yeah.

Marie: yeah, yeah. They must've saw something in me that didn't even know existed. And right now I think is questionable, but I'm glad they did. So I got to buy my aunt's salon and then turn it into what it is now, which is Vrb, which is an incredibly inclusive space. We want to provide services much like Hello.

We have a barber. know, we want to provide services for anyone who walks through our [00:09:00] doors. And it kind of has set the bar for what salons can look like in our area. We try to push the boundaries. but as we're pushing the boundaries, we want to pull everyone in our community along with us. So we have events and we invite other salons and we do things because I think as a whole, as a collective, we can't do everyone in our community's hair.

It's just not possible. Not enough hours in the day, but if everyone in our community can have access to good hair, then everyone wins.

Jen: Love it.

Marie: So yeah, and then this crazy Australian company picked me up after I was done with education and again, they saw something in me that I was like, you want me to do what?

Huh? You want me to come to Australia? Are you sure? Have you met me? So, it's been a wild ride, but it's just been fun.

Todd: How long did it take you to get over that volleyball, making that team?

Marie: Oh my gosh.

Todd: [00:10:00] Are you even over it? Or,

Marie: Yeah, I'm actually very grateful for it.

Todd: did you just before we hopped on?

Jen: Yeah. I love how you are talking about how like you had to own it, right? Because I think even that was your 19 year old self or 18 whatever you were, even in today's world, there's still like, that is still a thing, right? It's so easy to blame. Everyone else for everything they didn't get, not realizing, like, if they change that one thing, which is what can you do to make the difference for you to get it next time, everything changes, but it takes a while to arrive at that.

It's so much easier to blame. It's never me. It's always you, but in the end, it's always you and it's never everybody else.

Marie: And I don't know if you feel this way, but being a salon owner, anytime someone has left our salon, it's been a different thing. Like in the beginning, I took it very personally. I'm not going to

Jen: Oh, yeah.

Marie: was like, how can they do that to me and blah, blah, like all the

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: [00:11:00] And now I'm like, but wait, they're probably doing it for themselves.

And you're just an afterthought, you know, most of the time they're not doing it to hurt you or to be spiteful. They're just trying to do what's best for their life. And to move on. And, you know, so, so allowing people to leave with grace is, that's also a huge trajectory

Jen: Yes.

Marie: oh my gosh, all of the feelings that are ridiculous, but we have

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. I was just saying to Todd, we had a few things recently, like anytime someone's left now, I'm like, okay, are we doing enough? Whatever. We kind of relook at what we are. Are we, are we still operating here? You know, you just, it's a good self check. Same thing. I think we talked about this last week.

Bad reviews come in. I used to be floored. Like I literally would be crying. I probably couldn't get out of bed, whatever. And now I, I, you know, I welcome them like again, it helped Todd and I have hard conversations if we need to, or sometimes they're just stupid reviews, but it, it, all of those things help us be better and arrive at a better [00:12:00] salon owner, whatever we need to be to be better in the industry.

And I look at them almost, yeah, they're, I don't know, they're, they don't bother me at all. I actually like enjoy them and I feel better because of them.

Todd: I always look at those reviews, those, those reviews that

Jen: Mm

Todd: and I don't struggle with the one star reviews, I think, I don't know, just my background, maybe, but I worked in restaurants when you worked in restaurants. It's sticks and stones, right? But I look at it as an opportunity to communicate with our staff.

And I look at it as an opportunity to let our staff know that no matter what we have their

Jen: hmm. Mm

Todd: we'll figure it out, even if they mess something up, which is, is rare, because usually if you've honestly, if If you've made an honest mistake, we can make we can fix it.

Jen: hmm.

Todd: people reach out and it's those people that just fly off and they're like, I didn't get 100 percent of my way.

I can't handle that. It's those people that give us an opportunity to conversations. Like after this last one, I went to the staff member and I said, Hey, just so you know, that's not a reflection of you. That's a reflection of a person. [00:13:00] And it's a reflection of one person's Snapshot of one moment in time. The fact that they wrote all that really mean stuff about you is them. It speaks about them and where they are at in that moment. It's not, it doesn't force you to. Be in that moment with them or even accept it. And she was like, Oh, wow. Okay. you know, I kind of like them because you can leverage it.

There's a lesson in everything. It's why I asked about the volleyball thing. You know, if Marie didn't go through that lesson, she

Jen: Right.

Todd: same person as she, that she is today. So those things are, are definitely important.

Marie: I would still be a five, five. The person thinking that I should be playing collegiate at a volleyball.

Jen: Love it.

Marie: No, it's, and I love that you said that Todd, there is opportunity in everything. and I think it's only because we, the three of us collectively had, have had so many experiences in life and [00:14:00] have so much experience that we can

Jen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Marie: stylists, it's like you said, helping them to figure out that this is an opportunity I'm still going to wake up tomorrow. My husband's still going to love me. My dogs are still going to lick my face. All of those things are still going to happen, even though I got this one star review. So,

Jen: Heads will not roll off bodies.

Marie: And your team is so fortunate to have the two of you help mentor and guide them through these phases of life.

You have to let them experience it. But you can be their sounding board and you can be a platform for growth for them. That's really cool.

Todd: That part, I,

Jen: Oh, God.

Todd: I struggle with because I said to Jen, I was like, who attacks Jay it was Gianna on our team. I'm like, she's like the sweetest

Jen: I know.

Todd: I don't get it. And I was like, attack me. Like someone attack me,

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: Don't don't go after our team. And then I was like, all right, get over it, Todd.

You're making this a little bit about you at this point. You can't the world's [00:15:00] bodyguard, you know, but I don't like, I guess when people start, I feel like it starts to get into like bullying

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: a little bit when you're calling someone out specifically, know, I just that I need

Jen: Well, you crushed it with your response to that review, so it was quite, quite fantastic.

Todd: with the replies.

So

Jen: great.

Todd: this is what you want to put out. This is what you're going to get

Jen: Yeah. It was wonderful.

Todd: your

Jen: I have a question real quick, because I, I think this is true, but I, I, maybe I'm making this up. Don't you have a dog named Bowie? Bowie. Bowie.

Marie: I

Jen: Yeah. So we, I thought so. Cause we have a dog named Bowie.

All right. I was like, I think we have that in common. So I just had to, I don't know, shout out to dogs named Bowie.

Todd: we might have to get some pictures and we can put them up on social media.

Jen: So fun.

Marie: yes. Yeah. I have two pitbulls, and Jagger, and, and they're both female dogs, but my brother, it did his head in. He's like, why did you give your female dogs girl or boy names? And I was like, Bowie and Jaeger are surnames, so there are plenty of female Bowies and Jaegers running

Jen: So we're good.

Todd: Yeah, yeah.

Marie: like, [00:16:00] and names don't have

Jen: Yeah. What does it matter? Who cares?

Marie: put

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: we say from our mouth

Jen: And we need cool names for dogs. So

Todd: Yeah. And it sounded cool.

Jen: yeah.

Todd: so Marie, you wanted to talk about communication

Marie: Yes.

Todd: think that communication is, I mean, if you don't have communication, there's not much else. So what your thoughts on that or where do you want to go or how do you want to bring that into? Helping whoever's listening. Someone's listening

Marie: What?

Todd: Japan.

Marie: Hey, yeah. Konnichiwa. No.

Jen: I love it. Right. Yeah.

Marie: of my career speaking front of people. Well, actually all of my career because as a hairstylist, that's really what we are is a communicator. You know, we have [00:17:00] client who's sitting in our chair for a set amount of time and we have to use the words. that we know the vocabulary that we have to try and to an idea together of what their hair is going to look like. We have to have that understanding. And yes, we have visual tools, we have swatch books, we have pictures, I think there is such an art form to being able to articulate an idea so that you can almost paint the picture with your words for that client, because that builds trust. If they're looking at an Instagram picture that you didn't do as a hairstylist. The client can still question whether or not you can actually do it. But if you can really paint this picture with the words that you use with how you say them, because here's the other thing we're so used to talking to screens as we're doing right now, that we forget that we have a whole bunch of muscles in this thing called our face [00:18:00] that can tell half of the story for us. You know, it's like we say this at educator training, cause I get to mentor educators also. If you say you're excited about something, be excited about it. Like let the people know you're excited, you know, let them feel that emotion and use all of the different dimensions of communication clearly construe the objective. you're going to reach. I want to give you this really great bob. I want the longest points in the front to just graze the outer corner of your lip. want you to have a really curved face frame to show off your cheekbones and to open up that area of your face, lifting up, making you look younger, making you look brighter, making you look younger.

happier, more alive. And then in the back, I want to create this really beautiful head shape silhouette where you have roundness at the top and it collapses in at the nape. So it swings and it [00:19:00] moves and it's just gorgeous. Like sell it,

Jen: I want that.

Marie: words to paint that picture. And I think it's an art form that we're losing because a lot of our communication comes from our thumbs.

We're like, which is not a bad thing. It's just a new tool that we haven't had in the industry. So I think a lot of young stylists are afraid do a consultation because they don't know how to communicate in that manner to make their client feel comfortable and confident with them.

Jen: And I think too, because of that fear, I see this with services consultation. The whole thing is they rush through it. They're so afraid of it that they think if they do it fast, that makes it better. When in reality, even though you're afraid of it, you have to embrace it. And, and the longer you consult or the longer it takes you to do that haircut, not the quicker generally results in much better services, expectations, and, and hitting all of where you're all your marks, right?

Marie: I don't know about you. Were [00:20:00] you taught to do your consultations face to face?

Jen: Yes. Not through the mirror.

Marie: Yes, another thing I think because a lot of people are videoing the consultation and they're putting it out for social media. I'm seeing everyone only doing consultation through the

Jen: Yeah,

Marie: and it freaks my new stylist out when I tell them to turn around because we have plenty of space that they can sit in front of the client, like on the station

Jen: we have little stools that our staff can bring over and I even find myself, there's times I'm talking to the mirror. I'm like, ah, hold on. And then I come around and I'm like, all right, what's going on? And I just like kind of sit there because it's just, you need that. That's, you know, the, the mirror creates a buffer.

We're not actually like really communicating, right?

Marie: Yeah. It's very interesting. And is that the same in the barber world, Tom,

Todd: So

Marie: Tom Todd

Todd: that's okay. I'll answer anything. Our consultations, the way I learned it was super old school. So it was like a 15 second consultation and I could have probably have it done before the client [00:21:00] sits down in the chair. So I have been working on undoing that. So luckily I don't have as long of a background, so I don't have forever to undo, but it's still like five years of, is this the right way?

So now basically what I'll do is have a conversation and I forced myself, have a conversation with the person, even if it's not about hair and I don't even put the cape on them. We're not starting, you know, and over time, like just getting quicker with haircutting and not having to really as much. With certain aspects of it allows me to have those conversations, I guess. it gives it, it buys me that time because in the beginning I was like, this is an hour and a point on our appointment. I have to do this haircut. have time to like talk because I have to figure out what I'm doing and I have to think about it.

But as we go through those, our haircuts take like 30 minutes now. So it's, have extra time and I think I've, [00:22:00] you know, found a clientele that appreciates that too, for sure.

Marie: Yeah. And that's the thing, like anything that we talk about from our perspective is just that it's our perspective. So some people may not agree with what I have to say about consultation. They like doing it through Amir, whatever. Cool. If that's working for you and your business, please, please, please keep doing it. But as you said, Jen, if you're a young stylist and you're struggling with some things, like that's the time to try something different.

Jen: Right, right.

Todd: of the,

Marie: of insanity, we all love it. We

Todd: on a.

Marie: it all the

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: of the first lessons that Jen taught me in hair was creating connection. so when you can do that, I think you can solve a lot of problems. Like especially a newer stylist is looking for clients. They want to build a clientele. If you can form a real true connection with somebody that sits in your chair and not just, you know, So we're going lighter, you know what I mean?

Stuff like that. Then it shows that person that you're invested in them and that you [00:23:00] appreciate them, and then they're more likely to come back. And then now you have a clientele.

Marie: Yeah, because we

Todd: It's that easy.

Marie: in, yeah, just, it's so

Todd: Just do that people

Marie: Well, because we all live in communities and even if you're in New York City, generally your salon has a community of about a 10 mile radius. Like that's where you're generally pulling people in from. So those connections, they go beyond the salon. know, because now you've formed a connection with that client. They love you. They think you're amazing. They talk about you to their friends. They talk about you to their family. They support your business. You support their business. So these connections that we're making are so imperative and they go beyond dollars.

Jen: Absolutely.

Marie: It's,

Todd: definitely

Marie: really, I think, I think as salon owners and as stylists and human beings, when you do things for the right reason from [00:24:00] authenticity and being genuine, generally, like there's always outside circumstances, but generally the money that you need to fund that comes back to you.

Jen: Agreed.

Marie: So, I, I find so many people who are hustling so hard, but they're only hustling after the dollars. That they're always hustling. Yeah,

Jen: You're forgetting that you're there to serve the client. And as soon as you start forgetting that, cool, you might be making some money now, but you're not building a foundation and people want to be. They want to be seen. They want to be heard.

They want to be treated well. Right. I think, especially like adults, as we get older, before you know it, like you're, you're doing all the things and you don't feel like you're actually connecting with a lot of people. So if you can connect with your hairstylist and somehow now you feel there's this bond, it's very hard to break that.

I know a lot of people that stay with hairstylists, even if it's not a good one. And they're like, they like care for them. Right. So it's like very hard for them to break up because there's a relationship there. And eventually sometimes that does need to happen, but the relationship That [00:25:00] relationship becomes even more important than the hair.

They're just going for the hair cause they have to, but they can't wait to see the stylist or the barber and like catch up, like, that's how a lot of my clients are like, I just wanted to come see you and I, or I've had people book an appointment and they're going through a divorce or whatever. I need to get my hair done.

I don't really need to get my hair done, but I'm getting divorced and all this stuff's happening and I need to talk to you and I'm like, okay, cool. When are you coming in? Like it's, I love being that person for them. Right. It's, it's so awesome.

Marie: I do too. It's, I think that's part of being a mentor. That's just, I think it's part of our nature, that we just want to

Jen: Yeah,

Marie: That's really what we do. And that's why I think I can navigate through this world going so many different places solo is because I just assume everyone wants to help. No, again, might be, might be by naivete and my husband will call me out on that often, but I also don't want to move through the world assuming everyone wants to do me harm or people want to rip me off or take advantage of me because I wouldn't do that to someone. why should I [00:26:00] assume they're going to do that to me? And I think it helps to give me clarity and give me ease when I am traveling alone, when I am doing things that are outside of my comfort zone. I'm like, if I need help, I'll just ask.

Todd: make

Jen: simple.

Marie: I'll use my communication skills

Jen: it

Marie: my

Jen: out.

Todd: So. Jen, you can help with this too. I'm curious on your thoughts on so so we have a lot of young staff at our or we generally work with younger, younger staff. We have people that have been there since we opened. So it's not in that not 100%. But where would you start somebody if. So they're, they're looking to build a career.

You have somebody say, you've already decided that they're invested because there's always that someone comes in and you're like, does this person even want to be here? Do they even know what's happening? Like, so take that out of the equation, but they want to get really good. They want to [00:27:00] be above the average. Where, where do you go with that? How do you focus? What are you teaching them outside of maybe the technical skills? Obvious that should be kind of obvious, but do you start with communication? Do you start with. Connection and those sort of things or what are your thoughts?

Marie: I guess it depends on which avenue they want to grow in,

Todd: Okay.

Marie: Do they, do they want to potentially be a salon owner? Do they want to work New York fashion week? Do they want to be an educator? Like what avenue do they want to grow in? And then I don't know about you, Jen, but I always find that my team and my family and my husband listen to people who aren't me. Much better than they do me. And then through my connections in the industry, I try and connect to them with a mentor in that Avenue. That's not me, right? You know, if you have someone who wants to be a bang and haircutter with a [00:28:00] great social media presence, that seems authentic and real Christian guy, Tan or Christian awesome is a good person to connect them with.

Todd: Yeah. Sure.

Marie: So, because. Well, Christian and I have skill sets. He excels in certain things. I excel in certain things. They're going to listen to him more because they don't see him every day. So,

Todd: sure.

Marie: I, and as an owner and as a mentor, I know that I can't be everything to everybody. And that also is a very humbling thing because. are you talking about? I can do it all. You want to go to the six figure stylist training? I am a six figure stylist. Like they're not trying to diss me when they say

Jen: Right.

Marie: I just can't offer them everything and they see me every day. you know, getting to them to training that's not coming from me is generally my first step.

Todd: That's actually cool that you point that out because that's another thing that I struggled with when I had my gym. So I had my gym and I had people that would come to me and I would train them [00:29:00] five times a week for like five years. And they're working on this one move. And then on vacation, they drop into another gym they can figure that move out.

And they were like, Hey, Todd, how come you just didn't say it? Like how Bill said it. Bill's a better coach than you. And I, it used to drive me insane. And I'm like, I said the same thing. And then it just clicks. Like it's, it's because it's not me saying it has a lot of weight. So I think, like in any industry. The hair industry, especially, maybe there's a little bit of ego comes in with social media and those things. So

Jen: Maybe.

Todd: it's hard for people to be like, I need to send my staff outside because I see a lot of stuff. That's well, what if somebody steals my staff? What if somebody steals my client? You know what I mean?

Marie: yeah.

Todd: I, I don't think that way. Cause I don't, I mean, you can't really steal a person. That's

Jen: Or you shouldn't.

Todd: a thing. Not been a thing for, like, a long time. Not long enough. Like, let's, so,

Marie: [00:30:00] be able to buy one on Amazon soon

Todd: yeah.

Marie: that's what's

Todd: get goats. One time, somebody told me they had goats on Amazon. They bring them to your yard and fence it off, so they, they, like, mow back the brush, but it wasn't in our area.

Jen: Okay.

Todd: You

Jen: Glad.

Todd: yeah, you almost showed up to a farm one day,

Jen: Dang. I mean, I like farm.

Todd: any, any thoughts on that, Jen?

You would start people, and

Jen: so, like Marie, I am very aware that I, and I don't want to be everything for everyone, but I also am aware that they see me every day. So, As cool as I think I am, my cool goes way down. Cause they're like, yeah, Jen just does that stuff. I'm so generally we take people out of school.

So my first thing is, is to remind them is that my career is longer than they've been alive because I'll make everything look easy. Right. So it's easy for them to get frustrated. I also, depending on the person, we'll match them up with a kind of another stylist in the salon that I know might be a good fit for their [00:31:00] personality.

If they have high anxiety, I know where I go for that. If they're pretty confident and maybe need a little notch down, I know who I go for that, you know, wherever that person is. And that's usually the kind of my, I'll call them like a helper, right? Like, Hey, I want you to kind of take the lead on some of that.

And then I come in, you know, After they've done some models and basically I'm like, all right, now we're going to start testing out of some stuff and we go from there and then to what you're saying, once they're at a certain point right now, I, this year, some of them, I'm like, you need to, they're too complacent, right?

They're just, they're living life. They're making good money. They're. They're, they could probably do some hair with their eyes closed. So I'm like, I, you're, you're getting pushed this year. We are now in September. So some of them have done nothing. So basically I'm like, you're signed up for this class and you will go there.

Like, hello takes care of it. So you just need to be there. And they're like, Oh, okay, I'm going. Or like this Wednesday, I'm like, I picked three people. I'm like, you are learning a new skill. You've said you want to learn some stuff with extensions. We're going to meet, we're going to do this. And whether you decide to do it or not, I don't care, but I need you to, I need you to get [00:32:00] uncomfortable, like it's time.

So sometimes there's, there's a push for me, but I know them enough that they're ready for the push. Cause they could sit here and just be that same thing every year and they'd be fine for a bit. But part of, I think. When you're in a commission salon is that you get the pushes, you get someone to help lead you, you get someone to, to make you better or, or at least hopefully inspire you to be there.

And it's fun to do that too. And then like you said, and I outsource, I pick kind of what classes I think are good for them. Cause I never want to waste their time. That's how I feel as an educator. When I go in, I have. a family. We have so many things going on. So if you're gonna take the time to listen to me and let me teach you some stuff, I want to make sure there's a lot of value in that.

So what the staff has come to realize is when we bring in an educator or we outsource, they believe and they're like excited to go because they know that Todd and I have picked that for a specific reason that they will learn something. And they've come to trust that process rather than dread going to a class, right?

Like, what am I going to learn? Nothing. And we've been honest with them. There are some classes that have come up through social [00:33:00] media, like certain things, and we're like, we don't endorse this or I don't, these are not classes that I think are good. If you want to go to that salon and take it, go right ahead.

This is just not, I don't think there's a lot of value in that. And now they're like, they'll go to them and they're like, I totally get what you're saying. I'm like, yep. They're just trying to sell you shears. That's all it is. You want to buy some shears, go right ahead. It's not education or it's not the education I want for you guys, or we want for you guys.

Marie: That's a really tricky platform to navigate right now is education. I

Jen: hmm.

Marie: mean, the people who are like, Oh, I know how to do that. Cause I took a class and I was like, okay, tell me about the class. They're like, well, it was online. I was like, okay, so you did an online class. Cool. Did you have a mannequin head and you did the haircut along with this online educator? No, I just watched it.

Jen: Yeah. No. Yeah. Mm hmm. No,

Marie: there's such a broad spectrum. And I think it's great that we have access to all of these libraries of different things, it's also a very [00:34:00] dangerous place to be for the client sometimes because they go to these salons and they're like, Oh yeah, I can totally do that. And then while they're mixing color, they're watching the YouTube video on how to do that color. And I was like, Oh, okay. YouTube university strikes again. But

Todd: I go back to everything as a, did I just cut you off, Marie?

Marie: no, no, you're good.

Todd: So I, I just go back to everything as a tool, so you,

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: it's super fun, you can find inspiration there, but then, like what you're saying, that inspiration is not enough.

Jen: you have to practice.

Todd: to, you have to practice that and get in reps. I remember when we first started, we would have people like you could bring in a model and just, you know, kind of do whatever. So people would try new techniques and things like that. And I'm like, should we? We've we've toned that down, you know. But should you be trying things for the first time on your client? [00:35:00] I don't know. Like, that's not again, that's not for me to answer, but we don't we don't do it that way at our salon.

Jen: We have a bazillion mannequins in our salon at all times. Just like, like, even when I show them stuff, I'm like, don't do this right now. I'll help you. And then I will practice it on a mannequin after like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Got it. Thank you.

Todd: Our staff is to that, but in the beginning it is, it is challenging too, because with social media, are so many, like I always make fun of them, but gurus out there that are showing you, you know, here's how you take your business to the next level. Here's what you have to do. Here's how you do this haircut.

Here's how you run a business, whatever all this stuff. And it's, it's overwhelming. And it's also easy to get stuck in echo chambers. easy to get stuck in, well, this is the way to do it because look, 50, 000 other people said so, but these are just people, these are just people online, you know, everyone has a different circumstance and a different, and you also, a big thing for, [00:36:00] I know for Jen and myself is, you, you have to have some sort of why, are you just doing something because it looked cool on Instagram?

Because if so, go ahead, get it out of your system. If you're trying to like better yourself, let's talk about this. Let's figure this out. Let's make it at least make it yours.

Marie: Right. And, and I think in order to make anything yours. You have to have that core foundational skillset that you can then tailor

Jen: hmm.

Marie: make it yours, right? There are certain rules in life. If I hold a pen up and I drop it, it's going to fall down like gravity is a constant. And I think in our industry, there are a lot of constants, whether it's the color wheel whether it is elevation and graduation and haircutting. There's so many constants that you really have to own and understand before you can make something your own, you know? And I feel like we have a lot of individuals with good intention who are super creative and they themselves can knock out [00:37:00] amazing haircuts, amazing hair colors, do amazing things with extensions.

But when you ask them to explain it or communicate it back to you, they can't do it. So it doesn't make what they're doing wrong, but it also doesn't mean that they should be then teaching other people or saying, this is all you have to do

Jen: Right.

Marie: X, Y, Z. So, you know, it's like. It's like, okay, cool.

Tell me why that happened. Why did that color turn out the way it did? How did you get there from point A to point Z, all of the steps in between? And when they can effectively communicate that, then you know, okay, that's the person I want to teach my staff, or that's the person that I want to follow.

Todd: Jen always brings up rules. Jen, you talk about rules a lot with our staff. And if you want to break a rule, you need to start with a rule. you need to understand the foundations, which is what Marie is

Jen: And understand why that rule is in place. Like I talk about that even when I teach when people are mixing things and they're just like, Oh, this is how I mix it. I'm like, okay, well, do you understand when [00:38:00] you change that mixing ratio, what you're doing to the hair, your lightening or whatever? And they're like, I never thought of that.

I'm like, okay, so I don't care how you want to mix that, that, that bleach mixture, whatever you want to call it, powder lightener. But, and then tell you what's going to happen when you change and you move outside of the ratio so that then you can change other elements so that you're getting the same lifting process that you want, and they're like, No, one's ever explained it to me like that.

And like, well, you're welcome. Here we are. Like, I don't have a lot of followers, but I can teach you a lot of stuff and make it really fun and make you mindful. Like really think about what you're doing and why you're doing it. So like, what you said, like learn the rules, like, you know, then break them after same thing, like if someone comes in and they want to start foiling, right.

I'm like, What foils are you going to use? What comb are you going to use? What clips you are going to use only those right now. Like we're not going to make, Oh, from our has new foils. Now I want this now. Cause you're, I need you to use certain tools over and over again. So we can see what's, what's not working well.

And you're not going to blame the tools, right? I got to work with you.

Todd: It's hard, it's hard when we're getting splashed on social media all the [00:39:00] time, like with tools and

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: and all

Jen: You buy this comb. You're going to foil better. Like, no, you, you need to be able to foil better. The combs not going to make you better at foiling.

Marie: yes.

Todd: love a good comb though,

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: just saying,

Jen: I agree. Agreed.

Marie: I think I have probably altogether too many combs because

Jen: Same.

Marie: every time I go somewhere and they sell, YS Parks just happens to be my favorite, like for me

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: So every time I'm working with a distributor that carries it, I'm like, can I go shopping in your warehouse? And

Jen: were in Australia too. I was like, I need new stuff. And then I'm like, I really don't need anything new, but whatever.

Todd: need a whole bunch of stuff to carry 31 hours,

Jen: Yeah. So sitting on my suitcase, trying to zip it up,

Marie: that. I don't want to have to sanitize a comb for a whole week

Jen: seriously.

Marie: at the end of the week we can sanitize it

Jen: Boom. Yep.

Marie: back with my big

Jen: Yep. Love it.

Todd: Marie, you said in, in the beginning you were talking about, you got into hair through your aunt, essentially? [00:40:00] And then it was two years and you started educating

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: and can you talk about why you're an educator? Why? Why do you do it? Just to get famous on Instagram

Jen: Just to get likes.

Marie: I haven't gotten there yet. It is because I feel like whole life, whether it was my volleyball coaches, whether it was my beauty school teachers, my art teacher my aunt, I've had really good mentors. could help me become a better version of myself. And I feel like as an educator, I have that opportunity.

And why I wanted to educate for Redken was because I had gone to a big beauty show in Chicago while I was in school. And I went to the Redken stage and the educator on stage was doing cool hair, but I could understand what they were saying as a student, I got the why behind what they were doing. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I [00:41:00] want to do that. being on stage in front of all of those people was kind of cool and kind of appealing to me at that moment. And as a young educator, I'm not going to lie. I would go teach classes and all of the students would come back or all of the hairstylists would come back and say, Oh my gosh, you're so easy to learn from. You're so relatable. at 25, I did not want to be relatable. I wanted to be cool. And I was like, why are they not saying I'm cool? I just want them to say I'm cool. I didn't realize at that time that being relatable and easy to learn from is the coolest thing you can be as an educator. So,

Jen: So good. Love it.

Marie: passion for this industry.

I love hair. I love doing hair. I love the creativity, but I love the connection and the relationship that we get to have through our career and the opportunity and impact we have within our communities through individuals that [00:42:00] sit in our chair. Like I can tell all my clients about the restaurant. So hopefully they go support this cool new restaurant, you know, like, so it's this whole web of connection that we have besides being super creative and I get to have tattoos and pink hair. So it's great.

Todd: Bonus, bonus.

Marie: Yes. Yeah.

Todd: I think the being relatable that goes, I think where a lot of educators struggle what I've seen, these are, again, my experiences in hair is that they forget that it's not about them, it's about the student or about the attendee or whatever you want to say about the ticket, you know, holder. It's about the person and how can you connect with that person and how can you their career better.

How can you give them confidence or how can you give them a new skillset or how to hold a tool, a different way to help with whatever, like, I think that's I struggle with a [00:43:00] lot of the education that's in the hair world, because we've been in classes and it's, don't mind an intro. I obviously want to know who I'm learning from. A lot of times I get these like backstories and I'm like, I didn't need that information at all. What is happening right now? I don't even know why I'm here. At that point, too, now I've started to tune out. And I'm like, just show me your stupid haircut so I can leave. Do you know what I mean? And it's because there's no I don't feel like I'm getting anything. This isn't for me. This is for somebody to feel good about themselves. Talking to a group. what it feels like. Sometimes it's even like a vent session. And I'm like, I

Jen: Or therapy.

Todd: Yeah, or therapy. Or the educator goes off on this tangent that has nothing to do with anything. And they're just sharing their thoughts on the industry.

And I'm like, I thought we were here about these. Combs or whatever, you know what I mean? Like,

Marie: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting space that we live in, and all of us, myself included, we are all [00:44:00] very self contained in the way we think about ourselves, the way that we use our cell phones, the way that we use technology, and I think a lot of educators are their start by teaching to their phone. So a lot of educators who are now getting platforms, May not have a lot of experience actually talking in front

Jen: Right.

Marie: people. So

Jen: true.

Marie: them, it's, it's their own like bubble that they're in. And so when that bubble gets popped, they don't really know how to handle it or they haven't, I shouldn't say they don't know how to handle it.

No one has given them the skills to handle it.

Jen: Right.

Marie: Right. They haven't found a mentor who says you have really good information to share. You're amazing at what you do. Can I help you communicate that better to an audience?

Jen: And that takes practice too, right?

Marie: Yes.

Todd: well, and it has to, the educator in that case has to be willing to receive that communication as well. So sometimes people just aren't in a position, whether it's mentally or, or they're in an echo [00:45:00] chamber they've created, or already just decided that this is the way people have to, unfortunately, I think Marie, you mentioned it earlier, like you have to let people go through their, their things.

Jen: Yeah.

Todd: like we've had people this is not to do with, you know, Education, but we've had people like, say, move on from our salon who we've been like, that is, that is likely a mistake for this person, but we have to let them go. We can't, what are we, what are we going to do?

Jen: Hurts

Todd: I mean?

Jen: sometimes. Yeah.

Todd: It's it's, it sucks sometimes if you, cause you can sometimes see clearer and Jen, you always say, I, I can't, can't want more for you than you want for you,

Jen: That took me a couple of years ago to discover. Cause I was pushing and I'm like, I, I want more for this person that they, than they do. We'll have to wait until they arrive at that moment and then I'm ready for them. Right.

Todd: yeah, for sure. I think it might be a good time to jump into a little bit of accountability because that kind of rolls into that. And that was one of the other topics that [00:46:00] Maria and I had touched base on.

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: When, where, what are your thoughts,

Jen: This goes back to the volleyball thing.

Marie: It does. 100%. 100%. I mean, I, for me personally, my life is all about what I've done and how I can do it better because that's, I want to hold myself accountable to being a better version of myself. And it's not always fun. And I think we shy away from accountability because it doesn't always feel good it can be terrifying. I feel like human beings. We navigate out of fear for survival, like that's just how we're wired, Our ancestors had to be afraid of lions because they would kill them. So then they would tell everyone about the lions because that was a danger, but they didn't tell everyone about the monkeys that they had a good time with because it wasn't a danger.

So I think we're wired to recognize things that [00:47:00] can harm us and things that can make us feel bad. And I know for myself, living in that emotion. And living in that feeling and just letting it be there and letting the icky set in, and then I can be accountable for it and move on. And the icky never has to come back. Right. So when I'm accountable for a bad choice, you know, let's say I had a client and I was, I wanted to go out with my friend. So I rushed through her, her hair color service, and I know it wasn't up to my standard. I can a let her walk out of the salon and just sit and resignate with icky. Or I can look at that client and say, you know what? I either need to fix this tonight or I need you to come back the next day because here's the situation. I rushed through this because I want it to be somewhere else and I don't like the way this looks and I want to make it right. [00:48:00] So I could go hang out with my friends feeling icky because I let my client leave not great hair and that icky is going to live for a long time.

Or I can deal with that icky fast and really hard with that client. And then I can fix her hair and it's over with. I can, Then move on with the rest of my day and I don't have to sit

Jen: And like dwell.

Marie: and

Jen: Yeah. Yeah.

Marie: it's, it's really weird. And I know through my life that I have so much control over what my life looks like.

And I think people are afraid of that too, because when I recognize that I can actually control my health to a certain extent the foods I eat. Oh, that's terrifying because now it's on me. I can't blame anyone else. I know if I eat that bread, I know it's going to happen to me the next day. Like, but [00:49:00] I can't, I can't blame a pill or a doctor for

Jen: Right.

Marie: the next day.

Cause that's on me. So that control can also be frightening because then that means that you have a control over a lot and your choices are your own. And how do you handle that?

Todd: I love that. That's a huge thing that I worked on with people when I had my gym was just trying to show them that it's your, these are your choices. So yes, you're making the choice to come to the gym, but. You also need to change. You brought up food. That's a, that's a great one in this circumstance. Like you also need to change what's going on, what's going into your mouth and what you're doing is like, you're coming here for, you know, about an hour, a few times a week.

If you're really somebody that's focused, maybe you're there five times a week. So that's five hours. How many are the rest of the time? Like, what are you doing the rest of the time? Because we talk about also repetitions and an honest effort. We talk about that a lot with our staff. You're not going to just do the thing one time and [00:50:00] offset, you know, years of bad habits. So it's, and once somebody recognizes that they're in control, I think that opens a lot, a lot of stuff. Like anybody listening, even if you're just starting out, you're out of school, like you control what, what were you telling somebody, Jen, about an interview process? You were like, it feels good to be picked, but

Jen: Oh, but you need to.

Todd: picking,

Jen: You have to pick back. Don't, don't, don't just be picked. Right? Like, do you like it? Cause it does feel good. Right? Like everybody wants to get picked. We all want to be liked. Well, it's just where it's at. But I always say it when we're interviewing people. Like if we choose this path, make sure you're choosing us back.

Like again, that honest effort so we can at least start off in a good place and that can change. But in the beginning, don't just pick me cause I picked you. Like, come on.

Marie: Yeah. We, our onboarding process, the whole first week of their employment, don't touch a head of hair. They don't do a massage. They don't do a facial. They're [00:51:00] just really seeing the honest workings of the salon business, how we navigate as a team, getting to know our personalities, because then we can have a conversation and say, we feel like the right fit for

Jen: Right. That's how we are. We have them shadow come in a few different times for that exact, like

Todd: it's

Jen: that same thing.

Marie: Yeah. Because

Todd: people have to realize that it's their choice and it's there. So right now it's really their choice. I feel like everybody is, everybody is willing to take a stylist on. So if you have all of these choices, that's your, that's your first thing.

And another thing that Jen is interesting that you talk about is that you used to think that like changing salons was a negative,

Jen: Oh yeah.

Todd: like you can't go work somewhere. And then if it's a, not a good fit, you have to like, stay there because if you leave, it looks bad,

Jen: Well, cause, and

Todd: You've

Jen: from a,

Todd: that that's another decision, like

Jen: yeah,

Todd: decision at some point, like this isn't going to work out in the future.

I don't get along here [00:52:00] or I don't fit or it might not even be anything terrible. It might just be that it's a different, maybe it's an older clientele in your 18. Like it's just not the vibe for you. You know,

Jen: I, we just had somebody recently leave for what was, basically we're told this is a great opportunity. I knew it wasn't, I understand what's happening out there, but she had already made her decision. So I support her fully. And actually what I said to her when she left, I'm like, if this great opportunity is not as great as you.

I think it's going to be find your salon, like make the progress now and move on to another one, another one. And I think a lot of times mostly young people get into hair early because that's just how it goes. And then you have your parents in your ear that are like, you can't just, you can't just switch jobs this many times.

You're never going to make it. You have to find a job and stay there, you know, cause that's, that was their life. But I don't know. I I've been in the salon industry for like ever. Right. So. In this industry, you can switch. I've switched so many times. Every time I thought all my clients weren't going to follow me every time.

I'm like, I'm so unsuccessful every time I [00:53:00] got more clients and became more successful. But like every time it was this huge emotional process. So, I mean, I think eventually you've got to kind of find your footing and find your place, but. In the beginning, it's going to be hard because you don't know who you are.

You don't really know probably what you want out of it. And I think there's a lot of salon owners out there that lie. And I don't think they do it intentionally. I think they want to offer you all the stuff. And when it comes down to it, they're just not able to, we talk about this. Like, I wish those owners would just offer two things they can actually offer to a stylist.

Two great things then start and build from there. So a lot of times this, these young professionals coming out or, you know, getting offered all this stuff and they get in that salon and it's smoke and mirrors and none of it's real. And now they feel like, because their, their parents are like, you need to stay somewhere.

So they're trying to make it work, but in a creative world, you can't just make it work. You've got to find the place that really like inspires that creativity. Then you're good to go.

Todd: I was, I was in a meeting. I don't know why I'm [00:54:00] leaning in. Like, don't tell.

Marie: mean, you made me lean

Jen: I know what, what, what,

Marie: language.

Todd: Gotcha. Communication. So, I was in a meeting where I heard, I heard these lies, and I was like, I cannot believe what I'm hearing. But I heard a salon owner one time that was like, you want to go to Europe, I'll send you. You want to go to China and do hair?

And I was like, is that, can you What are you talking about? Like, I, I don't know what's happening, but it was just a person that was trying desperately to just seduce people basically to stay at their salon. I guess not, or not thinking ahead, like a week or a month. Like what happens when the person's like, Hey, I want to go to China now.

You said you were sending me like, what does that look like? You know,

Jen: That salon closed, by the way.

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: that's a lot. Did close. There's only so many things you can do to help people.

Marie: Yes. But [00:55:00] that's I think when you're a person who navigates from a point of accountability. recognize, and please young stylists know this, you always under promise and over deliver.

Jen: Every time.

Marie: I have to under promise, because I'm going to be accountable for the results that we're

Jen: Yeah,

Marie: So, I know I can deliver this. I can be accountable for delivering that, and if it goes beyond that, amazing.

Jen: I think we're rare on that one. Cause we, we're the same way people come in. Like, do you get a lot of walk ins? No, not really. Like it's going to be an uphill battle and be ready for that, you know? And then they look at, they're like, Oh, okay. I'm like, it's just honest. Like, and maybe there's a lot of walk ins that month.

I don't know, but. Here we are, but I think there's most salon owners don't operate from that sort of like under promise over deliver. Because again, like you said, they're desperate Todd, like to, or you didn't say desperate, but a lot of people need people. So they're, like I said, I think they're, they're not coming from a bad place per se.

But [00:56:00] they're trying to get people to work at their spaces and it's not under the right pretenses or under an honest effort from the owner.

Todd: Yeah. Well, when you're the owner too, it, you might, like, I have seen some malicious things, like where I'm like, those are lies. That's not true. Don't fall for that. But taking that out, you are the salon owner or any business owner, when you look at your business, you see it as something completely different than. Everyone else is

Jen: Right.

Todd: right? You look at it and you're like, why would not, how is everyone not here? This place is awesome. You know what I mean? And you

Jen: You're the coolest.

Todd: We are amazing. And you, you should, you deserve to feel that way. Owning and operating a small business is not for the faint of heart. It's just not. And I know that right now the trend in the industry is. Like everyone wants to be their own boss and all this stuff. And I've talked, I've talked plenty about that stuff, but I think that you have to operate with integrity and you have to be able [00:57:00] to sit down. Jen and I talk about this too.

Like you have to be able to sit in your own business with a cold eye. It's very difficult to do and be like, where can I improve? What am I missing? Where can I improve? What am I missing? And just look through, like, just watch a day as not the owner, but maybe even a client. Again, it's really hard because you're like, this is awesome.

Who picked that color? I did. So good. You know what I mean? But it's important to be able to reflect on that stuff because that is a form of accountability right there.

Marie: Yeah. And it's so funny you say that because feel like my salon team is amazing that we have, don't know that I sit in my space and say, this is the coolest place ever. I'm always looking at like, Oh, I think we should change that. I think this is getting outdated. I think like, so I'm always coming at it from that perspective my clients will say, well, aren't you just happy with it?

I'm like, I am happy with it. But my mind is always like, how can it be better?

Jen: Yeah. Cause you're always trying to set the bar higher. Right.

Marie: Yes. Yes. Which is [00:58:00] exhausting. And I'm trying to work on that because it's like, Oh, you just wake up every morning. Like, am I going to just be okay to be okay today?

Jen: I had my.

Marie: not.

Jen: My last apprentice who just PS everybody finished her hours. So we'll go take her state test. So very exciting.

Marie: Yeah 

Jen: somewhere halfway through her apprenticeship, or maybe a little bit more towards the beginning was like, do you ever think you're like expectations and standards are too high or has anyone ever told you that?

Todd: a.

Jen: Yeah. And I was like, okay, so here's where it's at. I actually want them here. I have set them here. So you need to get here. Cause we're going here. And she's like deer in headlights. It's like. Okay. Okay. And I know I'm, Oh, we're always just pushing, pushing. I, because you want to be the best and whoever I was yesterday, I learned so much, so I have so much more to give today.

And like you said, it, it is exhausting. Cause there are certain days where I'm like, dig deep or I'm like, can I just like take today and like be present? Or am I like still pushing? Like, where is that? That's kind of just probably part of our nature. Right.

Marie: I [00:59:00] think. Yeah. And I think that's why we are where we

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: right. You know, I talked to clients or people I haven't seen in a long time and I tell them what I'm doing with Evo and, and I'm like, so mind boggling that I have this position with an international brand and I live in Wausau, Wisconsin. Like, I'm like, it's, it's so interesting that I can do it from this

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: and from where I am, it, it still like blows my mind that I was able to achieve that.

And then I was able to push myself to that

Jen: Mm hmm.

Marie: So like not wanting to be the status quo. I, and I'm okay saying that I'm not. A typical hairdresser and I'm not a typical business owner. And it took me a long time to say

Jen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Marie: different, but that's okay. It's not a bad

Jen: Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm

Marie: and, I find I have a lot to share and offer with people, whether it's [01:00:00] skill sets in hair, whether it's life skills, but it's because I have that experience behind me that I can lean on.

Todd: I think that's tough for a lot of people. That's another thing that I struggled with with my gym was that I, so I was a CrossFit affiliate and I didn't want to be. If that makes sense, I wanted to do it, but I wanted to do it my way. And a lot of gyms were opening and they were basically cookie cutter versions of whatever gym you came from, because it was the same thing people would go, they would take a two day class and now they're a coach so they can open a gym.

And they, they didn't work on those skills at all, but here we are. So everything started to look very similar and. I would get people often that were like, you're not open on Thanksgiving because that's what you do. And I'm like, well, I know that's what every other gym does, but I'm choosing to be with my family. like that's, and I was like, it's okay to be different. And I had to tell myself that over and over again, because otherwise you're just doing what. Everyone else wants you to [01:01:00] do and not what you want to do. And what's the point?

Jen: hmm.

Todd: doesn't sound fun at all,

Marie: I had a young stylist come to shadow us. They're in the cosmetology program and she's like, I love doing long hair and I love doing blonding and I love doing balayages and I was like, Oh, that's so cool. And I'm like, can I give you one piece of advice? And she's like, Yeah, I would love that. Learn how to cut short hair really well.

Jen: Mm hmm.

Marie: And she looked at me and I could tell it wasn't just her jam. Like she was like, I don't want to do that. I'm like, but if you can cut short hair really

Jen: Then you can cut any hair.

Marie: much do anything in our industry.

Todd: but that's

Marie: Like,

Todd: And I don't want to do that

Jen: That requires work. And a lot of it.

Marie: it does. And, and hair cutting is what built my clientele. I'm

Jen: hmm.

Marie: an education for color. And I do great color work, also cut hair really well, [01:02:00] you know, so clients whose haircuts would grow out they'd be walking around town and they're like, Oh my God, I love your hair. Who cut it? You know, that's what built my clientele was doing the

Jen: Mm hmm.

Marie: You know, right now, media is chock full of beautiful balayages and extensions and all of that, but don't be afraid to be different. That will make you stand out. I love Twiggy, the model. I love her story. In a world of models that all look the same with their long hair and all of this, she goes to Vidal Sassoon and gets her hair all off that propelled

Jen: Amazing.

Marie: different. She took the risk and took the leap and maybe had a drink or two before she got the

Jen: Probably.

Marie: know. But I think, I think it's that mentality and not being afraid to be different

Jen: hmm.

Marie: actually will push you further in life.

Jen: Agreed. It's easy to just kind of hide behind [01:03:00] everyone else, right? But a standout is how you get there. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd: Did I miss anything? I have, I have a couple of quick questions if you don't mind, Marie.

Jen: Oh, let's do it.

Marie: it. Okay. Like rapid fire

Jen: Right? Like,

Todd: no, you don't have to rush.

Jen: rapid fire, just rapid fire slow. Ha ha ha.

Todd: to you. I know we have a class at some point, Jen, but

Jen: And we got time.

Todd: I'm here. You talked a little bit about an entrepreneur, how you got into that. Why are you an entrepreneur? Why are you a small business owner?

Marie: To provide. To provide jobs for stylists, to provide spaces for my community to go for haircuts. The fact that we actually a barber and we have stylists that can work on every texture of hair comfortably and confidently to provide a space in my community where our queer community is welcome [01:04:00] and celebrated and feel safe. And to just provide the average human being. With the capable or the, opportunity feel better about how they look. I really am a business owner to provide,

Todd: Like it. What would you like to see changed in the industry? If you could snap your fingers and one thing is changed automatically, what would that be?

Marie: to have a kinder sense of community. You mentioned it a little bit with the competition. They're going to steal my staff. They're going to do this. They're going to do that. We are so powerful as an industry. When we come together. And we have the potential create such astounding things. Hairstylists are amazing people. I love hairdressers. And I think if we could come [01:05:00] together, with more kindness and with more grace for one another that competitive nature, I think we could do really great things.

Jen: Agreed.

Todd: Yeah, I like that one too. So this is sort of like a two part. What's your message for, I guess we'll go A, people starting out industry, and then B, maybe somebody that's been in the industry that's feeling like what's next or feeling kind of stuck.

Marie: Oh, cool. So newbies,

Todd: Newbies.

Marie: a service. Yeah. Newbies, you're a service provider first and foremost.

Jen: Mm hmm.

Marie: So making sure that you provide top-notch services. don't be afraid to be different. Don't be afraid to be yourself. Don't try and be like everybody else that you're seeing in salons on social media, on the internet, on tv. Find out who you are and do that.

Todd: Very cool. [01:06:00] And the people that are maybe longer into their careers, maybe their owners even, and they just are like, what am I doing here?

Marie: yeah. in that question and really answer it. get hard with yourself because as Jen said, if it's time to move on, it's okay.

Jen: hmm.

Marie: If you're a business owner and it's time to move on, you don't want to be a business owner. You don't have to be that. It's okay to make those changes. It's okay to really take the hard look at your life and where you want to go. And do it.

Todd: That's tough for people

Marie: it's really tough.

Todd: we've, we, we put a lot into these things and we, they almost define us and they shouldn't, it's just, this is just part of your life, you know, what are you doing with everything outside of it? There's so much more to somebody than just, know, failed, I'll put that in quotes because your business might [01:07:00] not be failing.

You might just be over it and that's okay.

Marie: I loved I watched Simone Biles documentary

Todd: Okay.

Jen: that's good. I haven't seen it.

Marie: oh, it's so good. And when she was talking about Tokyo and what happened and she had the clarity and I don't know if she had it in that moment, but on the documentary, she's like, I'm reading all of these nasty comments. from people who are sitting on their couch. And I was like, yes! So as a business owner, we are the one that put the risk in. We are the ones that have everything on the line. So if you need to close and you need to stop it, done more than the majority of the

Jen: Mm hmm. Mm

Marie: are going to judge you.

Jen: hmm.

Marie: So let them judge from their couch.

Jen: You're getting judged either way.

Marie: Exactly. Exactly.

Jen: get judged if you want to be doing it, and get judged on the things that you're like, I'm proud of this and I stand behind it, like, for sure, right?

Marie: 100%.

Todd: Jen, do you have anything or did I miss anything? I

Jen: this was awesome.

Todd: have you back [01:08:00] on. There was a lot we covered and there's probably even more that we couldn't even begin to scrape the surface on, but does

Jen: was a blast.

Todd: A closing thought or

Jen: Oh, closing thoughts. All right. I'm going to come up with one. We can all do this. It's gonna be fun. First I think, thank you for coming on. Cause this was so fun. I more fun than even, I thought, I never know when we're going to interview. I mean, I know we've been together, but like, you just never know how, like the flow is going to go.

So way more fun than I anticipated, which is great. I. As I said in the beginning, I'm so happy our paths crossed because I truly like have become a person because of meeting you and are just doing so many things and having somebody in your adult life, you feel like believes in you and it's like, you can do this and I can see these things in you.

And we do that as leaders in our businesses, but like, I felt that from you and it, I guess, got me to be like, I can do more. I, I, I can do this and I'm going to push to do this, even if it's uncomfortable. So thank you for that. And hopefully some of the stuff we've talked about today, maybe help somebody out there push to be their better [01:09:00] self too.

Todd: awesome. What do you have Marie and closing thoughts?

Marie: In closing thoughts, I've always lived by the mantra, my life is about me, it's hard, but when my life is about other people, it's easy. So, some people look down on service providers, but I think it is the greatest career you could ever choose, is to be in the service of other human beings, and that is legacy.

Todd: Amen. Yeah. Marie

Marie: that's just lead with service, leave, lead with thinking about other people first and your life will be easy or easier.

Jen: Easier.

Marie: but easier.

Jen: It's great.

Todd: said, if I do this

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: thing, I'm putting it on Instagram. Marie said, if I did this one thing, you'll never

Jen: Easy.

Todd: one thing.

Marie: not. I'm that educator right now, Todd. I'm sorry.

Todd: I have a quick closing thought and it is just to have more conversations. It's to get outside. [01:10:00] Jen says this all the time. I don't think I ever preach it, but it's something that's just clicking right now. Get outside of your own business, go reach out to another salon owner or somebody that's not even in your industry that you are like, you know what?

I want to have coffee with that person. And just. Pick their brain or don't just have a conversation about your dogs and whatever, but just there's, there's so much out there and there's so many things and opportunities. And I truly believe that you can learn from anybody. I don't care if it's the kid that's in middle school that you're having a conversation with, there's something there that you can take away from that conversation. That's all I got. So, Marie, where can people find you? How do they get in touch with you? Say they're like, you know what, I want to have a class with Marie. What, what where can people find you?

Marie: Oh, great. Great question. Instagram is at MV Kieffer one, two. You can instant message me, follow me. I'll follow you back. It'll be great. but honestly, if you want to book a class with me right now, the easiest way to do that [01:11:00] is to find your local Evo distributor. And they're going to be able to set you up with how I can come into your salon.

I am starting to develop platforms on communication skills for personal education. So that will be something coming down the pipe at a later date. But it's really hard to develop your own content for a class and do it really well.

Jen: I can only imagine.

Marie: I'm, I'm myself

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: it well.

Jen: Oh, I look forward to it. That's cool.

Marie: Yeah.

Todd: hopefully we will have you back on when you have that ready to go.

Marie: I would love that. This was so fantastic. And I have to say the flow of the conversation felt really good.

Jen: Yay. Good. Good.

Todd: was sort of the goal. I, we have a lot, we have a line. people outside right now. No, we have a list of people. a list of people that we want to have on you. When I brought it up to Jen, I was like, Hey, fall is here. Cause we pushed it. It was, [01:12:00] this was going to be a summertime project to get people in front of the audience and on our podcast.

And then it was like, no, summer has got to be for family and it's just going to get hectic. And when we talked about it, you were the first name on the list that came up for me. So

Marie: Thank you.

Todd: you very much

Marie: that.

Todd: for your time. You're welcome. And thank you for your insight and for sure have I'm sure helped a lot of people.

Jen: I agree. The flow was very organic too. Yeah. It's just nice.

Marie: some good

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. It's good. That's us.

Todd: nice to have a conversation.

Jen: Yeah.

Marie: A

Todd: All it is. So

Jen: Cool. Cool.

Marie: percent.

Jen: Well, it was so good to see you.

Todd: Book your class, Jen. Book your class.

Jen: I know. Can't wait. At some point in person. It'll be so great. Very cool. Book a class. Yeah. I'll get on that. All right. Bye Marie.

Marie: of your

Jen: Thanks. You too.

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