Can speaking our goals aloud set us up for Failure and Sow Seeds of Discontent?

How one can become genuinely curious without attachments?

We explore the challenge of setting personal goals and dealing with the negative self-talk that often arises when these goals are unmet or viewed from a destination-based perspective. They discuss the importance of focusing on the journey and the process rather than just the outcome. Through a series of discussions, they come to the understanding that genuine curiosity, approached without ego and with a childlike wonder, can be a transformative experience, allowing individuals to engage with their personal development more fully and with a sense of contentment. This approach leads to a discussion of curiosity's subjectivity and its potential to make an individual feel good by paying close attention and giving genuine time and effort to learn and grow.

 The key takeaway is that being curious serves as a catalyst for true knowledge and self-empowerment, transcending personal limitations and leading to a rewarding journey of self-discovery.

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Transcript

Eldar [00:00:00]:
On this week's episode, the way that we set our goals and we speak them out loud is actually incorrect. And we almost set ourselves up every single time for failure, for this negative self talk, why? The never ending thirst for more is probably also an indicator that you're not doing the right stuff.

Tommy [00:00:19]:
It's not a never ending thirst for more, okay?

Katherine [00:00:22]:
That shows lack of contentment to me.

Anatoliy [00:00:25]:
These kinds of episodes, I feel like they add value. If you listen to this back, you just really listening and following along, there's no way you walk away and not.

Tommy [00:00:35]:
Say, what the fuck?

Eldar [00:00:40]:
I think the topic of today, which I'm glad that we're still getting to, is a very interesting one. And I'm going to start by trying to explain, I guess, how it came about in the first place. Right, Mike? Yeah, right. The way this topic came about is that Mike came over my.

Eldar [00:00:58]:
Right.

Eldar [00:00:58]:
And he was like, man, I'm doing my head in. I'm like, what's going on, man? He's like, I'm being too hard on myself. I'm beating myself up over stuff. I'm like, what's know? He's like, yeah, I still feel like I'm a loser. I still feel like I'm not getting anywhere with where I'm trying to get to, and I'm just being hard on myself. Right, Mike, can you expand on that a little bit?

Mike [00:01:17]:
Yeah, I mean, I can share the reference. It's related to relationships. So I've been wanting to, I guess, get into a relationship, get to the place that I'm ready to get into a relationship. And I was beating myself up because in part of that journey, there are certain things that I have fears, like fear of rejection, fear of coming up to girls, fear of saying anything to them. So it's like I'm beating myself. I was beating myself up because I'm.

Eldar [00:01:49]:
Coming from a very weak place, and I don't feel, like, empowered. And I feel like.

Mike [00:02:01]:
It was bothering me. I was upset about it, that I was kind of, like, paralyzed in those interactions.

Eldar [00:02:08]:
I can't even engage in them. So that's what I came to all there with. No.

Mike [00:02:14]:
And I was doing myself in with that.

Eldar [00:02:17]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:02:18]:
Feeling like you're at the end of.

Eldar [00:02:20]:
Your rope, kind of.

Tommy [00:02:24]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:02:25]:
To be honest with you, I was thinking about that thing at all.

Tommy [00:02:30]:
You feel like you're out of luck, you're down on your luck. Nothing works.

Mike [00:02:37]:
Yeah, probably those things.

Katherine [00:02:38]:
But it's also my way.

Mike [00:02:40]:
It's also obviously not rational.

Eldar [00:02:43]:
He was being hard on himself, so.

Vemir [00:02:45]:
What is the main question?

Eldar [00:02:47]:
Yeah, we're getting that. So this is when we started to start thinking as to, you know, Mike's actually been going through, not only going through, but actually journeying himself to self development and self improvement by doing many different things. And you probably heard some of that stuff that he's been working on.

Eldar [00:03:08]:
But.

Eldar [00:03:09]:
Unfortunately, during these types of times, he really doesn't resort to maybe.

Eldar [00:03:16]:
I guess.

Eldar [00:03:17]:
The ability to be grateful for himself, being. Acknowledging the journey that he's been on.

Eldar [00:03:23]:
Right.

Eldar [00:03:23]:
And kind of like taking time, being patient with himself and all these other things that kind of just become almost like a fleeting moment for him in the moment of despair. So we're like, hey, why is this happening? You are working on yourself. You're going towards that thing. Why is this still happening to you? Why can't you just enjoy the process? Why can't you just harvest that good energy that you're supposed to be harvesting from the things that you are accomplishing, like, what's going on here?

Eldar [00:03:53]:
What the fuck?

Eldar [00:03:56]:
And obviously, I think a lot of people struggle with stuff like this, where they set certain goals. We set certain goals, especially big ones in our life.

Tommy [00:04:09]:
So we're getting to the root of the problem here. There's been a lot of noise. There's a ruckus over here.

Eldar [00:04:18]:
Thank you. There you go. See, everybody's now sensitive about what the fuck is going on around here. It's good. Headphones are good, man.

Vemir [00:04:23]:
You must have been suffering before.

Eldar [00:04:25]:
Oh, yeah.

Vemir [00:04:26]:
Everybody's just like, what?

Eldar [00:04:27]:
Yeah, I was getting it only in my.

Tommy [00:04:29]:
Yeah, or he was just enjoying all the fruits of this.

Eldar [00:04:32]:
Yeah, but we've gotten to a point where we're. Hey, like, why. Why is this. Like, why is this happening to Mike? And probably it's happening to a lot of people that set goals, and then the goals slowly die out, and the people become. They become bad to themselves, and they.

Eldar [00:04:52]:
Start have the negative self talk, right?

Eldar [00:04:56]:
Not appreciating themselves, not reflecting on their own journey, not being grateful for their journey and all this stuff. Like, why does the focus shift from good to the like? Catherine's therapist always said, what is it called, the negative thinking? What is that like, thinking all nothing. All or nothing.

Katherine [00:05:13]:
It's a black and white or all or nothing?

Eldar [00:05:15]:
Yeah, all nothing thinking. Black and white thinking.

Eldar [00:05:17]:
Right?

Eldar [00:05:17]:
And as we started to explore this topic a little bit more and try to understand it, we've come to this maybe conclusion or maybe a question where maybe the way we're speaking or we're talking about our goals, the way that we set our goals and we speak them out loud is actually incorrect.

Eldar [00:05:36]:
Right?

Eldar [00:05:37]:
And we almost set ourselves up every single time for failure, for this negative self talk. Why? Because what happens is we make a general goal for ourselves, whatever it is that we want to do. Let's just say lose 50 pounds, lose weight, right. Or become successful. But we never talk about the intricacies or the details that actually are going.

Eldar [00:06:01]:
To get you there.

Eldar [00:06:02]:
We never fall in love with the journey. We never fall in love with those details. We never fall in love with the knowledge that we need to get in order to get there, or the empowerment pieces.

Eldar [00:06:11]:
Right?

Eldar [00:06:12]:
And therefore, we always just step on the scale. Like, I was working so hard and I still don't see the number that I want to see on the scale, right, but you've been working so hard. So what happens is you don't appreciate, you don't have the ability to appreciate the steps every step of the way.

Eldar [00:06:29]:
So the question is, how do we think and how do we speak in such a way that we are empowered.

Eldar [00:06:38]:
In every step of the way so that we are extracting the good energy that we can extract from our process versus just thinking for the future and destination.

Eldar [00:06:49]:
Right. How do we think and then how do we speak?

Eldar [00:06:53]:
So therefore, then our actions will line.

Eldar [00:06:55]:
Up in accordance to this proper pattern.

Eldar [00:06:58]:
Because right now, the way we usually do it is we think is incorrect.

Eldar [00:07:03]:
Right.

Eldar [00:07:03]:
That's why Mike, who is actually journeying himself and doing the right stuff in the grand scheme of things, he's becoming.

Eldar [00:07:11]:
Better, but he can't reap the fruits of his own labor. Why?

Eldar [00:07:16]:
Because he has a grandiose, bigger, bigger goal that he's attached to so much.

Eldar [00:07:20]:
That he can't appreciate the process.

Tommy [00:07:25]:
At what point, I'm wondering, do you realize that your thoughts are kind of this part of something? Like you said, grandiose, big.

Eldar [00:07:34]:
Well, he came to me and said, hey, I'm still a, wait, what are you talking about? I'm thinking I'm standing from where I'm standing. I'm watching Mike's progress. He's doing a lot better. He's fixing his relationships around him. He's fixing his health. He's losing weight. He's doing things that are good. And then the result is that he still feels like a loser.

Eldar [00:07:56]:
I'm like, wait a minute.

Eldar [00:07:58]:
I'm so curious about it.

Katherine [00:08:01]:
I think that as long as Mike sees himself like that, that's what he's going to going. Do you know what mean? Like, I think first before becoming that guy or that person, he needs to let go of that negative self talk like that self.

Eldar [00:08:22]:
See, I think the negative self talk is almost a necessity, a byproduct of making, setting a wrong goal, setting yourself up for a grandiose goal. I want to be successful. I want to lose 50 pounds. I want to do this, I want to do that.

Katherine [00:08:37]:
I'll tell you unintentionally, no matter how far he goes, if his self worth is on the floor like that, he's never going to see it 100%.

Eldar [00:08:47]:
But what I'm saying is that if you talk properly about the goals that you're setting, you will take the proper action in order to focus and extract the energy and the good stuff that you need to extract from all the details along the way. He is not extracting those details along the way.

Mike [00:09:04]:
Yeah, it's hard to explain, but I think by setting that goal, you're in a way setting yourself up a failure, because you can only draw power or energy when you reach that goal, that whole process in between, because of the way you thought about it, it mushes the whole thing.

Katherine [00:09:24]:
You want to go like this way, right? Like you want to go up.

Mike [00:09:27]:
No, you don't want to go up.

Katherine [00:09:29]:
Or you go down or whatever.

Mike [00:09:30]:
No, not even that. I think it's. You say, hey, I want to fall in love or I want to lose weight.

Eldar [00:09:35]:
That thought, that's it.

Mike [00:09:37]:
There's nothing in between. You don't think about actually the process.

Eldar [00:09:42]:
Because you don't give respect to the process.

Mike [00:09:46]:
You're so glued to that end goal that you lose sight of how to actually get to the end goal. And you don't actually think about that end goal. So that end goal, it's a way of your ego that's blinding you. For example, that's the huge thing that.

Eldar [00:10:00]:
I think we're discussing with alder is that that puts us into a really bad thing.

Mike [00:10:08]:
It sets us up for a very bad thing, so that we cannot enjoying yourself. You're not able to enjoy the process properly, not able to extract energy from doing those certain things, right, which they should be.

Eldar [00:10:18]:
The detail is supposed to fill you case.

Katherine [00:10:20]:
Then how are you going to fall in love if you're not?

Eldar [00:10:22]:
That's right, you're not full, you're not thriving.

Tommy [00:10:24]:
If you're not, you still feel like a loser.

Eldar [00:10:26]:
You're not embodying confidence anymore. You're not doing any of that.

Katherine [00:10:29]:
It's that lack of confidence that's going to take that. I think that in order to meet someone and kind of vibe with that person, you have to feel good about yourself. You know what I mean? If you don't see yourself in a good light, I think that it'll be hard for that other person for sure.

Mike [00:10:50]:
But I think it's hard in a good light. What you're asking for is for sure is correct. But when you attach yourself to that.

Eldar [00:10:56]:
Goal, it's hard to develop what you're talking about.

Eldar [00:11:05]:
You're compromised by you uttering those words and you're attaching yourself to that which you want to do. You're already at a fault.

Mike [00:11:14]:
Because in a way, what you're saying is like, oh, I'm competent enough to make that statement, but you are not.

Katherine [00:11:22]:
Or I see it.

Mike [00:11:23]:
You need to say, hey, I'm not.

Katherine [00:11:24]:
Going to be happy until I reach that, or I'm not going to be happy until I fall in love.

Mike [00:11:28]:
You have no idea how to properly get there. You want to lose weight. That's maybe easier. Example. We can say that one, you want to lose weight, but you have not understood what it requires to lose that weight properly, honestly, not by cheating, by skipping meals, or by, I don't know, cutting corners, I don't know, whatever. People do weird things, right? Or taking supplements.

Eldar [00:11:53]:
If you don't do it the right.

Mike [00:11:55]:
Way, respecting, educating yourself about that process intimately, you will fail.

Eldar [00:12:00]:
And I think a lot of times.

Mike [00:12:02]:
People fail because they don't show respect to the process that needs to be done in order to reach your destination.

Eldar [00:12:08]:
You don't actually develop the character that you need in order to sustain change or be deservant of real change.

Vemir [00:12:15]:
I think this is the main issue, right? Like, you're only complaining when you're not feeling good, right? So I think we have the reverse issue. Someone's upset and then their mind creates things based on that feeling, and the feeling is the base, right? It's like the discomfort. So I think sometimes I check myself, like, at the end of the day where I'm very exhausted, but it's hard to sleep. Like, kids have this issue. They're exhausted, but they can't settle down, right.

Eldar [00:12:42]:
They cry.

Eldar [00:12:43]:
Yeah.

Vemir [00:12:43]:
So sometimes my mind is so active and it attacks everything that I was liking or I was feeling good about, or it just extrapolates and I catch.

Eldar [00:12:54]:
Myself and I think, like, I'm tired.

Vemir [00:12:57]:
Now these thoughts are just coming up because I feel discomfort. It's not because they're real or they're justified. It's just your state of discomfort. You know what I mean?

Eldar [00:13:07]:
Imagine you're in a very cold situation.

Vemir [00:13:11]:
Your brain is complaining all this. Then you're in the fire, you're feeling warm. It's like those problems mostly go away, right? The sense of dissatisfaction is the base of your thoughts, not that the thoughts and the assessment of your life is accurate. So it's mostly lying, I think. And in terms of pursuing long term goals, a certain level of awareness, I think, realizes that sedentary intake, comfort only goes so far. So you're not going to be asleep, watching tv, in a sense, not conscious, kind of half there. And then something breaks you out of it and you feel like shit. Some guy pulls up in a mclaren, you're like, oh, I should be doing something with my life.

Vemir [00:13:56]:
That's not a good way to go through your life as a mechanism. But it's like, I think tension and improvement and feeling like when you hit those barriers, you can actually break through by paying more attention, like we're saying to the details. That seems like a reasonable way to.

Eldar [00:14:11]:
Make it more interesting.

Vemir [00:14:12]:
You're more curious than you're seeking comfort.

Eldar [00:14:15]:
You know what I mean? No.

Mike [00:14:16]:
A lot of people, I understand what you're saying. I think you're saying to pick it up in the middle point or maybe during the process, and be aware that.

Vemir [00:14:25]:
When you're feeling down, it's just maybe because of your physical needs are not met. When I'm hungry, I'm more angry or whatever else. It's taking longer than it needs to be. So your assessment might be just wrong.

Mike [00:14:38]:
No, I mean, sure, that could be that. But I think genuine, wanting to understand how things work. I think that's the right way to do things.

Vemir [00:14:52]:
That's why I said your curiosity has to outweigh your wanting to feel comfortable.

Eldar [00:14:58]:
Curiosity, this is very important, I think. Yeah, the word curiosity, having the ability to actually be curious about the intricate details of how to get there. And I think through curiosity, you empower yourself by digging deeper and deeper and deeper yourself because you actually want to do it. So that work, so called, does not become work, it becomes something. It's a journey that you actually want to do it.

Vemir [00:15:22]:
And therefore you transcendental property.

Eldar [00:15:24]:
Yes.

Eldar [00:15:24]:
You focus in such a way where you then receive the benefits of that, what you're doing, because you are immersed in that, what you're doing genuinely through interest and curiosity.

Eldar [00:15:35]:
Absolutely. Without that. This is why what happens.

Eldar [00:15:38]:
We attach ourselves to the end goals, and then when we step on the scale, we see that we didn't lose the 50 pounds we'll beating ourselves up over it, even though we've been eating right, we've been exercising and sleeping good. But I don't see that. No, that's irrelevant, because you did not pay attention to what actually you should have paid attention to, which is that sleeping right is very important. Or understanding the importance of sleep right. And really honing in on every moment of sleeping, of losing every pound or eating right.

Eldar [00:16:11]:
Yeah.

Vemir [00:16:11]:
Like when you were a kid, you were curious about when you're digging a hole or whatever. It's probably strenuous, but you don't care. Or you're, like, uncovering bugs for 6 hours, whatever else. And there was an important point I was going to say, but I'm going to think of it as it comes up.

Eldar [00:16:26]:
Michael talking.

Vemir [00:16:27]:
But a really interesting thing I was.

Eldar [00:16:29]:
Talking about the other day, let's say.

Vemir [00:16:32]:
My favorite example, right? Your goal is to date, like dua Lipa, right? The thing is, if you have a locked goal, a locked goal constricts you, and it can constrict you into absurdity, right? Like, if your goal is to marry dua Lipa, you will probably sacrifice things, and you could go down a hole of compensating for something in yourself that would be unimaginable.

Eldar [00:16:57]:
You know what I mean?

Vemir [00:16:58]:
Like, what if she disrespected your family to the deepest level? But you're committed to this goal. So I think pivoting is an important thing, too. The core and the essence of your goal matters. I think if your goal is very superficial, it's going to cause you many problems along the way. When a goal is meaningful, it gets deeper as you explore more. What I wanted to say is exactly related to this, because when you feel, like, really upset that your goal is not working around, you have to understand.

Eldar [00:17:33]:
Why you're upset about it. And I think when you take it personally, that's actually a good sign.

Vemir [00:17:40]:
If you take it personally, that means that there's something between. I want to word this correctly.

Eldar [00:17:46]:
It's kind of like the better way.

Vemir [00:17:49]:
To approach this is with curiosity. Because curiosity takes you out of the equation. It's not a personal thing. When you're curious, you're beyond yourself, and you're wondering to get more knowledge, more information. So I think when you're like, why am I not good enough? You're just beating yourself up for not being enough to closing the gap between.

Eldar [00:18:10]:
You and the goal.

Vemir [00:18:10]:
When you're curious, you're like, how do I figure out the mechanics? Curiosity automatically assumes that you have the.

Eldar [00:18:16]:
Ability to explore that and change and improve towards what you want. You know what I mean?

Tommy [00:18:21]:
I think part of that was a lot of contract between them as friends, between Mike and Eldar's friends, is that you can come to me. That's the kind of thing you can trust me, because I'll give you an opinion. And so I feel that also fits with being curious, because you can say, hey, I feel like I'm not making any progress. Elder says something like, you're doing great. Your progress is great. But correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like there's a little psych out there for your own thinking to get in the way. But your friend says, you're making great progress. You're moving at light speed, but you're batting a thousand right now.

Eldar [00:19:07]:
That's a good point.

Vemir [00:19:08]:
Emotional regulation, friendship conversations, and then there's like, help me work through this.

Eldar [00:19:14]:
No.

Eldar [00:19:14]:
Yeah, for sure. And for a while, Mike, I think, struggled with something like this. So when he came to me and said the things that he said, I'm like, wait a. Like, why did this still happening? Right. Why do we keep running into the same problem where people around you clearly acknowledge that certain things that you're doing are better for you, but you're not? There has to be something else in there, right? I can't just keep pumping smoke up his ass, motivational speeches and reminding him that you're doing so well. Why is he not harvesting this himself? And that is what we try to solve. And I think that the reason why this is happening in the first place is because I think there's a schema in Mike's brain that he set up for himself. Right.

Eldar [00:19:54]:
That he's fighting against. And until he lets go of that, until he administers everything, re understands everything that he set up for himself and refocuses, I don't think he's going to be empowered. It's as much as Catherine me unlocking.

Katherine [00:20:10]:
The path to, let's call it joy. Right. Or happiness or contentment.

Eldar [00:20:14]:
Right. Yeah.

Katherine [00:20:15]:
When he unlocks that, that's when he'll be able to correct. To be happy.

Eldar [00:20:19]:
Be happy and actually content with himself that he's actually doing. Improving and he's doing the right thing without anybody's co signing.

Katherine [00:20:27]:
Yeah. I want to use my example just briefly. So I'm over my weight. I have been for the last few years, and my weight just keeps going up, and it's not something that I have felt really great about. So for a minute, because I was kind of, like, dwelling on, like, oh, well, this that the other thing. And I'm not where exactly I would like to be. And you allow that to keep you from being happy. And now I'm at a point where I feel like I'm very happy and I'm very content and am I at the weight that I want to? No, but I'm not allowing that to keep me from being happy because I'm doing other things that are making me feel good and I'm feeling really good about myself, feeling just better.

Eldar [00:21:11]:
How did you get there?

Eldar [00:21:15]:
Yeah.

Vemir [00:21:16]:
Why are you mentally healthy when you.

Eldar [00:21:17]:
Haven'T reached your goal?

Eldar [00:21:20]:
What shifted? What changed?

Katherine [00:21:22]:
Well, I guess. Do I go way, way back? I think therapy has helped a lot. Developing self awareness, paying attention to the thoughts that are going through my mind, developing, being kinder to myself. I used to have a lot of negative self talk. I used to judge myself a lot or like, oh, look at you, you're not this, you're not that. So I think that working on myself and then also finding something that I like and just letting go a little bit and focusing on that, between that therapy and I think it's multifaceted. But I'm in a much better place. And sure, I may not be the way that I want to, but I'm also, I don't know, not stressing about it and I feel all right.

Katherine [00:22:08]:
I forgot about the point I was trying to make already.

Vemir [00:22:11]:
The question was like, why do you still feel like you two are, for example, not at your destination z yet? One's frustrated, one's content.

Eldar [00:22:21]:
Why?

Katherine [00:22:23]:
Okay, so in my case, we have different goals. But for me, I don't see that being 20 pounds lighter is going to add happiness to me. That's not going to bring me anything.

Vemir [00:22:35]:
So if something doesn't bring you anything, why is it a goal?

Katherine [00:22:39]:
Right. So the truth is it's not. I'm not sitting here actually dieting or actually putting my hardest effort into it. I do go to the gym. I try to stay active, but I'm not sitting here and killing myself with discipline. I'm not.

Eldar [00:22:53]:
So would you not say that you've shifted your focus?

Katherine [00:22:57]:
So, yeah, my focus actually has shifted from that and what I believed to be that. Like, oh, I think I would like to be. I don't care about that anymore. It's not going to make me happy. It's not going to add to my life. It's not going to make me a better wife or make you love me better. It's not going to do any of those things. Only I can do those things for me.

Katherine [00:23:16]:
But those things have nothing to do.

Eldar [00:23:18]:
With how I look, if you know what I. You.

Katherine [00:23:20]:
Yeah, I guess maybe I'll leave you there.

Eldar [00:23:23]:
No, I think that this is a very good example of what we're trying to say is that you've shifted your focus towards the intricacies on the daily day activities that you do, and you're able to extract good things from those things. Yes, you've changed that about.

Katherine [00:23:37]:
And also not focusing on the lack of something in my life.

Vemir [00:23:41]:
Well, what is it? Fake goal. This goal you had was fake.

Eldar [00:23:45]:
You don't know why?

Eldar [00:23:47]:
It's no longer in the forefront.

Katherine [00:23:49]:
It was just more of, like, feeling really uncomfortable. Like, I saw my body changing so quickly, and I was just like, oh, my gosh. It was more of, like, I didn't feel like myself.

Vemir [00:23:59]:
So you made a goal out of discomfort, not ambition, discomfort.

Katherine [00:24:02]:
And not accepting myself for how I'm changing or how I'm looking. And then it kind of just slowly shifted, not because I wanted to shift it, but just because I'm feeling better about myself in general. And just putting that to the side where, why does it have to be an important piece of me?

Eldar [00:24:19]:
And the paradox of it, all right, is that when she was skinnier, she was mentally ill. Now she's heavier. She's a lot better.

Katherine [00:24:27]:
Yeah, I was 40 pounds lighter and I was miserable.

Eldar [00:24:30]:
You understand?

Eldar [00:24:31]:
You see how this works? Well, now she actually knows herself, is happy with herself, and she has a good routine with the physical activities that she is doing.

Vemir [00:24:41]:
Well, this seems to just reel back into the main theme here, which you guys talk about is you do what you want as long as it makes you happy, and then you'll learn if it's not serving you, and then you'll improve.

Eldar [00:24:52]:
But this is a very, like, I.

Vemir [00:24:55]:
Don'T feel wired in this very, like, my father's like this.

Eldar [00:24:59]:
He's very patient with life's process.

Vemir [00:25:01]:
I'm not patient with life's process. But this is aside from me. I wanted to ask you something kind of adjacent to this question about goals. So the discouragement usually comes from you doubting your ability to reach the goal, right?

Eldar [00:25:15]:
That's one of them.

Vemir [00:25:16]:
Sure, that's one of them.

Eldar [00:25:17]:
And then negative self talk comes in.

Vemir [00:25:18]:
So the negative self talk confirms that and multiplies it. Yeah, but this is an obvious point. The non obvious question I'm asking is.

Eldar [00:25:24]:
Like, you haven't said anything yet. Nothing yet.

Eldar [00:25:28]:
Please ask.

Vemir [00:25:33]:
Your ability, or like, this.

Eldar [00:25:35]:
Base potential of ability, like I said.

Vemir [00:25:38]:
Is inside the thread of curiosity, when you're curious, you say, I can figure this out automatically. It's like embedded in the question, right?

Eldar [00:25:45]:
Well, not necessarily that I can figure it out. I think it's like I'd like to figure it out.

Vemir [00:25:49]:
You'd like to because that's curiosity. You're kind of like fully in when I'm saying this. Negative self talk comes in. When you approach, let's say a bar with curiosity, you do a million times better because you're not attached to some reputational expectational outcome.

Eldar [00:26:06]:
Sure.

Vemir [00:26:06]:
What I'm saying is when you have a curious output, you kind of accept all outcomes because you're exploring.

Eldar [00:26:12]:
That's right.

Eldar [00:26:13]:
And I think what I'm saying is.

Vemir [00:26:15]:
The exploratory mindset, that kind of base, do you think that is threaded in with this saying that I have the ability to maybe now we're saying face the outcomes rather than the abilities.

Eldar [00:26:29]:
I don't think you attach yourself no longer to the outcomes. You embrace them.

Vemir [00:26:32]:
You attach yourself to the increased awareness.

Eldar [00:26:35]:
No, what you should be attaching yourself.

Eldar [00:26:38]:
Ultimately, I think, is being sensitive enough.

Eldar [00:26:44]:
To know the difference between being genuinely curious or attaching yourself to a goal.

Eldar [00:26:50]:
Right.

Eldar [00:26:51]:
Because you're going to be like, okay, cool. I really want to find out. And that journey alone will fill you up, you know what I mean? So anytime that you don't feel that you are being filled up with stuff and you don't feel good about yourself or you're not having fun, those are kind of the gauges you should disengage and say, like, what am I actually doing here? Am I attaching myself to an outcome?

Eldar [00:27:11]:
Right.

Eldar [00:27:12]:
And why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? Because if you're not attaching yourself to outcome, you have genuine curiosity. And I think genuine curiosity keeps the open mind.

Vemir [00:27:20]:
But part of me is genuine curiosity about vertical progress. That's why I feel a bit impatient, because I like to improve. That's a new door to open, do you know what I'm saying?

Eldar [00:27:32]:
That's an interesting thing that you're bringing up. You curious about the vertical progress?

Vemir [00:27:37]:
So I'm curious what the next level.

Eldar [00:27:39]:
Looks like in a way.

Vemir [00:27:40]:
And that's where I kind of get my own.

Mike [00:27:43]:
Yeah, anytime I think you're living in the future, when you set that future goal, it's a show of arrogance, thinking that you know what looks like, what the process looks like in a way, you're giving yourself a pass that you know enough about what you're trying to achieve. But where is your like.

Vemir [00:28:03]:
I'll explain. The point I wanted to say is, in that thing, you actually can realize even intellectually, sitting right here, there's no material thing that will change your consciousness that quickly, right? That's kind of obvious. No job title will change nothing. So any experience like that, that changes you has to be like a life lesson. A new philosophy of breaking of bad patterns and stuff like that. This is where the real magic happens. That's why I feel like when someone sets a goal that's material outcome, they're going to be disappointed because they don't have the change. Like they're not going to be a different person.

Vemir [00:28:42]:
I think becoming a different person with more awareness, more ability and competence in what you want to do. This is a qualitative feeling. And I think when it comes to, for example, with girls, it's like if you have ten g's for the night or you have $5 for the night, but your ability is different. Who you are has become more receptive to the external world around you. I think that becomes more interesting. And you feel like, oh, this is a level that was harder for me that I've now conquered. That's the different feeling. But if I set a goal, like, I'm going to have $10 million in five years, but you're not changing as a person.

Vemir [00:29:24]:
You're going to feel a little bit duped. I think you're setting yourself up for this mental failure, right? Those lottery ticket winners don't become a different person immediately. Certain aspects do emerge, right? There is a mechanism in your brain about ability which is related to goals. If you do something like, let's say every morning, you say, I'm going to.

Eldar [00:29:47]:
Have a cold plunge.

Vemir [00:29:49]:
If you go to the cold plunge.

Eldar [00:29:50]:
And you feel that nerves, and then.

Vemir [00:29:52]:
You do it and you come out, you feel a reward. But then the next time you're working that muscle that says, I'm doing it, even though I don't feel like doing it. So then you feel like you can do it again, and then you feel this confidence of ability and then it becomes normal. You ever been to the gym? Six months in a row.

Mike [00:30:10]:
The next day I think way you're saying it, I agree 100%, you should challenge yourself. But I think the intricate detail is knowing why am I doing this cold punch, having those reasons behind it.

Vemir [00:30:22]:
Otherwise it won't last.

Mike [00:30:24]:
No, otherwise it's not going to work. Same thing with losing the weight.

Eldar [00:30:28]:
Otherwise you have to push yourself.

Eldar [00:30:30]:
Yes.

Eldar [00:30:30]:
If you're pushing yourself, that is an indication, right? Again, we're talking about discipline. That is an indication that somewhere down the line of setting that goal, you fucked yourself.

Eldar [00:30:41]:
Yeah.

Vemir [00:30:42]:
The thing is the expectation. What is your behavior when something's meaningful.

Eldar [00:30:47]:
To you, but it's hard.

Vemir [00:30:50]:
I'm not talking about big things like, let's say you want to go and it's your son's birthday, and you want to take him out for a nice.

Eldar [00:30:56]:
Time, but you slept 2 hours last night.

Eldar [00:30:58]:
You're not being good to yourself.

Vemir [00:31:00]:
But maybe a little bit of a push is not like a killer thing.

Eldar [00:31:03]:
Because, listen, we're not saying that we don't resort to this. We obviously resort to this, but we're trying to figure out a way.

Tommy [00:31:09]:
I agree.

Eldar [00:31:13]:
To maximize little push, tom. Yeah, push the button.

Mike [00:31:19]:
Push the button.

Eldar [00:31:22]:
I think we're trying to maximize well being. Self love.

Eldar [00:31:25]:
No. Yes. Okay.

Eldar [00:31:27]:
Self love. And I think that self love is where the empowerment comes from. And really you surround yourself around a life that you really enjoy and have.

Vemir [00:31:35]:
Fun with, and it becomes easier, too.

Eldar [00:31:37]:
It becomes easier. But I think that you have to think things through. If you did party the night before, but you had some obligation, of course, sometimes you have to push yourself, but if you have that choice where it's like, do I really have to do this? Like, for example, if you had made your own obligation, say, I need to.

Eldar [00:31:52]:
Get my hair done or something.

Eldar [00:31:54]:
Get a haircut or get my nails done or whatever. You can negotiate certain things, but a lot of times people don't. You know what I mean? Just sleep. We work. A lot of times we work with Catherine on this, right? She makes the plans the day before. And then I'm like, hey, you don't know how you're going to wake up the dogs wake us up at three.

Eldar [00:32:11]:
Or four in the morning, last three.

Eldar [00:32:14]:
Four weeks, and we are broken. And she's like, I'm tired, but I still want to do this.

Eldar [00:32:18]:
You see that?

Eldar [00:32:19]:
And that then becomes a battle between, are you going to be displaying self love towards yourself or are you going to push through again? And how does this world look like, right? Compromising again, you should be staying in bed. You should try to take a nap. And then when you finally took enough rest, got enough power, energy, go do whatever the fuck you want.

Vemir [00:32:40]:
So what about honor? Do you believe honor is like bullshit? In which sense, like sticking to something.

Eldar [00:32:50]:
Sticking to your word? Yeah, no, I 100% believe in that.

Vemir [00:32:53]:
However, what's meaningful enough to stick, first.

Eldar [00:32:56]:
Of all, you have to be very careful with what you say. My thing is, if you're going to give your word. You have to really mean it.

Eldar [00:33:04]:
If you don't.

Eldar [00:33:05]:
I mean, nobody's going to take you seriously sooner or later or yourself and you're going to beat yourself up. So I think that for sure, honor is correct. Yes. But at what cost? I'd rather not be trying to subject myself to honor. I'll just be very careful with my words.

Eldar [00:33:19]:
I want to do preventative care.

Eldar [00:33:21]:
I'm not going to promise you anything. I didn't promise anybody to bring this fucking couch in. Right. I wanted to surprise everyone and make everybody feel comfortable and happy and all this other stuff. And I try my best. Trust me. Like, I try my best.

Eldar [00:33:33]:
Absolutely.

Eldar [00:33:33]:
You know what I mean? But it didn't work out for me. You know what I mean? But I don't feel like I haven't pressured from you guys because I didn't promise you anything.

Eldar [00:33:42]:
Right.

Eldar [00:33:42]:
Like these headphones. I didn't promise you guys these headphones.

Vemir [00:33:44]:
Surprises are good.

Eldar [00:33:45]:
But surprises are good. Imagine your whole. But imagine I promised you and I didn't do it.

Eldar [00:33:49]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [00:33:49]:
When it comes to the goals, edding, based on what I'm hearing you guys say in my understanding as well is.

Eldar [00:33:56]:
That when you set a goal, it.

Anatoliy [00:33:59]:
Sounds like you are going to the future when doing so.

Eldar [00:34:04]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [00:34:04]:
Now I don't know if the issue is in setting goals or it's like your understanding of how to set goals and the process of doing so, but it sounds like to me what most.

Eldar [00:34:15]:
People do is that they go to.

Anatoliy [00:34:17]:
The future and they set a goal and then they never come back.

Eldar [00:34:22]:
Right. What is never coming back?

Anatoliy [00:34:24]:
That's a good point for you to set a goal. You have to go somewhere. Right. And that place that you go is not right now. And I think lots of times you don't.

Eldar [00:34:34]:
Yeah, that's a very good question. Before you continue. Sorry, can you set a goal? Yeah, you have to go. You cannot set a goal being in the present moment.

Anatoliy [00:34:46]:
Your goal is not like when you walk, I'm like, okay, I'm going to put my right foot in front of my left. You've accomplished it.

Tommy [00:34:53]:
And then you don't set another goal in the present.

Katherine [00:34:54]:
Is that what you're saying to setting a goal means that you're not living in the present?

Anatoliy [00:34:59]:
Well, no, I think it's setting a goal by default. You have to live in a future.

Eldar [00:35:04]:
You have to imagine, right?

Katherine [00:35:06]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [00:35:06]:
Because you're obviously not there yet and it's something that you want to do, not something that you're doing now?

Tommy [00:35:11]:
Well, I guess that's why people say your goals have to be reasonable. They have to be specific.

Anatoliy [00:35:15]:
Yeah, it depends on, they seem like possible, what kind of goal that you set. Well, I mean, that might determine how far advanced you have to go. And, I mean, I'm not sure.

Tommy [00:35:24]:
Lately I've been thinking about goals. Just kind of like, just offhand, you.

Eldar [00:35:28]:
Know what I mean?

Tommy [00:35:28]:
Where I think, okay, that's possible. Or sometimes I evaluate how I feel about saying, I'll pay off 50% of my debt, for example, and I'll say, okay, where did you get months and months?

Mike [00:35:39]:
Where'd you get the authority to set a goal?

Tommy [00:35:42]:
I know in those cases, they might feel a little bit further off. I'll just kind of check how I feel about it, and I'll say, I'm really interested in this. For example, I'm really interested in this. I dream about doing this. That's my goal. And that's kind of just different. But sometimes emotionally, I'll say, this, be hard. And I have to really push through.

Tommy [00:36:08]:
And it's even possible a long term. I have to tell myself, okay, this is specifically like a longer term thing, but those are actually goals. But I'm not going to come in here and say, guys, I'm ready.

Eldar [00:36:22]:
To.

Tommy [00:36:22]:
Be Tommy with $50,000, period. Tommy with $50,000. I'm ready to be that guy.

Eldar [00:36:30]:
Yeah, I hope not, because it does.

Tommy [00:36:32]:
Sound a little awkward.

Eldar [00:36:33]:
Right?

Vemir [00:36:33]:
I think goals come from your higher.

Eldar [00:36:35]:
Archetype, your higher, your false self.

Vemir [00:36:39]:
Not false, but like, who you could.

Eldar [00:36:41]:
But do.

Mike [00:36:41]:
People mostly set unrealistic goals for themselves that they actually, if you tell me.

Eldar [00:36:46]:
What I'm going to say, incompetent. Incompetent goals.

Mike [00:36:48]:
Incompetent goals. If you say, hey, you know what? I never ran in my life, but I have a goal to run a marathon. Who the fuck are you to think that you know what that entails? Sounds exciting, but why would you set a goal that you have no idea what it takes?

Vemir [00:37:00]:
Because you're exploring a different.

Tommy [00:37:02]:
When Mike first started running, well, Mike.

Eldar [00:37:04]:
Started because you watched a motivating movie. There you go. Emotional goal setting.

Vemir [00:37:09]:
I'm talking about the real. Like, you feel it in your spirit.

Mike [00:37:13]:
Like, this is like.

Vemir [00:37:17]:
So hold on.

Tommy [00:37:18]:
Vermeer, I do have something to say. I remember this study that said that when you have a thought about a goal, you have this reaction where you release dopamine.

Eldar [00:37:28]:
Exactly. That's not what I'm targeting.

Tommy [00:37:33]:
Or already doing the thing.

Eldar [00:37:36]:
Hold on. I think totally was trying to answer that, which we're talking about.

Anatoliy [00:37:44]:
With setting a goal. You're going to the future. And I think the main problem is, I think to maybe touch on what Mike was saying. I don't know if setting a goal that you need to know exactly what it takes to achieve it. I don't know whether you need to or you don't.

Mike [00:38:05]:
I don't think you can know everything.

Anatoliy [00:38:06]:
Yeah, but I think that when you set a goal, like I said, you go to the future, and the main issue is that you stay in that future and everything in between does not add to you. It doesn't affect you. You can't draw happiness from now, from it now because you haven't gotten your goal.

Eldar [00:38:24]:
No, exactly.

Anatoliy [00:38:26]:
Well, no, it's because you're not living in the now.

Eldar [00:38:30]:
Right.

Anatoliy [00:38:30]:
You're still in the future when you set that goal and you never returned. Now, I think it might be okay to set a goal regardless of size. Doesn't matter whether it's like, maybe it'll take 20 years or a month or whatever it is, as long as you are willing to come back and live in the present moment and kind of experience those things day to day so that you can benefit from them and.

Eldar [00:39:02]:
Momentarily forget about the actual goal.

Anatoliy [00:39:04]:
Yeah, I think part of living in the present is you have to forget about the future.

Eldar [00:39:09]:
Correct.

Anatoliy [00:39:09]:
And I think part of setting a goal and going to the future is.

Eldar [00:39:13]:
Like you forget about the present. Right. Because it's like you're not that person.

Anatoliy [00:39:21]:
That you, for example, want to be or you haven't done what you want. But I think goals in general, they stem probably from desires, right? Like you want something, so naturally you don't have it now, which again, is completely fine, but you have to come back and you have to live out your present day life. And again, it's like the topic we spoke about last time is that. What did we say, Elder?

Eldar [00:39:48]:
We said that self sabotage.

Anatoliy [00:39:50]:
Yeah, again, in part of, like, self sabotage visits us when we're being lazy. We say, right, because it's showing you that you're not living in the present day, which is why negative self talk and all that stuff comes in, because it serves as a reminder that you're not living your life. You're just living a future life that you constantly desire and want, but you never experience the present correct moment.

Eldar [00:40:22]:
This is why my question is.

Eldar [00:40:23]:
My question.

Eldar [00:40:24]:
How do we talk?

Eldar [00:40:25]:
Right?

Eldar [00:40:26]:
Because talking is obviously after thinking first we thought about it, oh, it's a good idea to fucking set a goal.

Eldar [00:40:31]:
Right?

Eldar [00:40:31]:
And then we say it out loud to ourselves, to the people around us, to our friends and family, right? And then boom, this thing is in the air.

Eldar [00:40:38]:
And now the time starts clicking. Oh, there's a problem there, right?

Vemir [00:40:43]:
I think there's a spiritual principle about this.

Eldar [00:40:46]:
Okay.

Vemir [00:40:47]:
If you say it out loud, it's already over.

Eldar [00:40:50]:
You won't get there nearly as much as you do.

Vemir [00:40:53]:
My cousin believes that I only say things. It's as hard to do, bro, because you get that.

Tommy [00:40:59]:
Can we apply that to Mike's situation when you elder?

Vemir [00:41:02]:
That's like discussing an issue. But I'm saying no.

Tommy [00:41:05]:
I think it might be relevant, though.

Eldar [00:41:07]:
Yeah. One.

Tommy [00:41:09]:
Like, if I come to you and.

Vemir [00:41:10]:
Say, vamir, when you go, I feel like I'm not making, I want to be this. And people are like, oh, yeah, you feel good. But the important thing is I try to say things when they're done. That means it's case closed. That way I can talk about it, I can elaborate on it, and someone can be proud of it because I'm not talking out of my ass. I did it. It's done. It's over.

Eldar [00:41:29]:
Unless you're a charlatan and you're peddling to people that don't actually have the ability to think and reason.

Vemir [00:41:35]:
Right, but that's kind of besides the point, right? The important part is you should have your ambition internally, and then the threads of your questions should be to figure it out. But I don't think you have to put your main ambition on display all the time because it's going to reduce the energy. You need the energy here, guys.

Eldar [00:41:56]:
But we're trying to actually explain the intricacies of this thing with logic and reason in order to then have an intentional attempt at this so we can harvest the energy that we need in order to be really truly empowered and confident without needing anybody co signing.

Anatoliy [00:42:10]:
But Vamir, I also think that you shouldn't probably just flaunt around and share everything, right? But I think it's fine to share and to say it, but then I think that you should inherently then accept responsibility for it. But I think that people usually want to share it, but then not then attach responsibility for what they said and.

Vemir [00:42:35]:
Hold themselves holding your word.

Eldar [00:42:36]:
Right?

Eldar [00:42:37]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [00:42:37]:
Accountable for it. So if you are going to say it, then you will both feel the great feelings of, I guess, success and going through those steps. But then you should also.

Tommy [00:42:53]:
Premiere about.

Eldar [00:42:54]:
Myself 1 second before I say this to Tony's point. Everyone wants to make an announcement that they're starting a new business or a new venture. Nobody, nobody comes back to you and updates you and says, you know what? Remember that time when I told you about that announcement?

Eldar [00:43:09]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:43:10]:
It's done. I fail. Nobody comes back. Tommy's pretty good.

Vemir [00:43:15]:
Tommy, silently, you got to figure out their failures.

Tommy [00:43:17]:
Hold on. And the really important in two directions.

Eldar [00:43:20]:
Tommy, I'm going to scold you right now, but don't.

Eldar [00:43:23]:
Okay, cool.

Vemir [00:43:24]:
The really important part is actually why you're announcing it.

Eldar [00:43:28]:
Well, yeah.

Vemir [00:43:29]:
Do you need help with a particular issue? Do you want to, you want to.

Eldar [00:43:33]:
Pat on the head?

Vemir [00:43:33]:
You're usually looking for the approval.

Eldar [00:43:35]:
That's a mistake.

Vemir [00:43:37]:
And then that gives you evidence about the goal. If you really want to achieve a goal, I think that you don't really care about the other approval ratings.

Eldar [00:43:47]:
It's like, I want to create this.

Vemir [00:43:49]:
Great, beautiful flower on a big canvas. So you go to ask your uncle, who's an artist, you go to ask some friends, you do some research on Wikipedia. Do you announce that you went on Wikipedia? No, you did it because you're curious and you have the production. And then you say, hey, check out my beautiful flower painting. But then the problem is when someone says, I'm going to do this great flower and I'm going to feel like all those kind of stupid, egotistical things.

Eldar [00:44:15]:
That are a little bit more obvious.

Vemir [00:44:16]:
To say, that's when it becomes a problem, because you're not doing it, like we said, for the process. You're doing it for the outcome in a way that the outcome is actually the outcome of other people's viewing of you.

Eldar [00:44:29]:
Right.

Vemir [00:44:29]:
And this is where the ego is very shifty and escaping. But I want to get to your example.

Tommy [00:44:37]:
Maybe it's when you confess about these goals that you have and you think it's going to be great. That's where you set up yourself in this grandiose picture.

Eldar [00:44:45]:
I don't know.

Tommy [00:44:46]:
When you start saying, like, oh, I want to do this, I'm going to be doing this, and I'm going to be doing that, guys.

Eldar [00:44:54]:
So just like, look out, because I'm.

Tommy [00:44:57]:
Going to be doing this, all this stuff. Then you sort of create this grandiose picture. I don't know.

Vemir [00:45:05]:
I only use that mechanism.

Eldar [00:45:08]:
You became very good at us not taking you seriously, and I appreciate that.

Tommy [00:45:11]:
Right. I've often been the babbler who's come in here and said, guys, and maybe from a tender place in my heart, which my friends don't judge me for, and said, I think I'm going to be doing this like I'm going to be a photographer.

Eldar [00:45:24]:
I'm going to be a.

Tommy [00:45:25]:
No, we do judge for it. I really don't care about your really harsh statements. You come from this far right or far left point of view. I have no idea where you come from. And I accept that. I accept you for that because you just love.

Anatoliy [00:45:38]:
I just think it makes you very.

Vemir [00:45:41]:
Are you guys aware of what's going on?

Eldar [00:45:43]:
Okay. Yeah, we know his story.

Tommy [00:45:45]:
As I was saying, tom is art. I've often come in here and just yapped away about what I'm going to be doing and then gone away feeling defeated somehow.

Eldar [00:45:53]:
Why?

Tommy [00:45:54]:
Because I just wasn't enough. And I've often kept myself maybe in.

Vemir [00:45:58]:
This tender, sort of soft, here's the problem.

Tommy [00:46:00]:
Uncomfortable place, but low risk, very low risk.

Vemir [00:46:04]:
Here's the problem of announcing who you're going to be. People are judging you for who you are right now and who can blame them? They only have evidence of what you've done and who you are now. So if you want to change, my best advice for that is change in silence. So that one day they wake up and they say, you're not that guy. And you're like, I am that guy. And here's the proof. And then they have to recalibrate to who you are now.

Eldar [00:46:27]:
Correct.

Vemir [00:46:27]:
But the thing is, if you're announcing who you're going to be, you're going to get shot down by people who are only assessing via evidence of what you've done before.

Mike [00:46:37]:
It's not a good mechanism.

Vemir [00:46:38]:
And I just wanted to tell you one more thing. 1 second. When people doubt me directly, I then multiply ten times. I'm going to do it. It's like an ego, ego reaction to say that I can do it or whatever else, just to barrier away me internalizing doubt in myself in a way I used to use that mechanism, prove the haters wrong. Now that mechanism doesn't really need to me that much.

Tommy [00:47:08]:
I appreciate that. I do appreciate that.

Eldar [00:47:10]:
Appreciate what?

Tommy [00:47:13]:
That courage to be.

Eldar [00:47:15]:
Well, thank you.

Vemir [00:47:16]:
I mean, the important part though is like you are doing something because you.

Tommy [00:47:21]:
Realize, let me explain. Maybe I'm a little biased because my friends stand behind a lot of the things that I do. And for me, I kind of idolize them in a way. I say, okay, your friends stand behind. Hold on, let me rephrase.

Vemir [00:47:33]:
Let me idolize them.

Tommy [00:47:36]:
Guides. I see them as mentors. I see them in this light. I see them as being able to guide me. To do that, raise your hand if.

Anatoliy [00:47:45]:
You think that is a lie.

Tommy [00:47:46]:
Sometimes guidance, that kind of guidance.

Anatoliy [00:47:49]:
Do you hear that?

Eldar [00:47:49]:
Vimeir or no.

Eldar [00:47:51]:
Well, he can have that impression. Totally. Yeah, he can have that impression.

Vemir [00:47:56]:
He doesn't view you as guide.

Tommy [00:47:57]:
No, Vermeer, very far away. Sometimes that guidance is a glimpse of this kind of ideal place that doesn't really exist. And you need to kind of be reminded of that.

Eldar [00:48:09]:
Totally.

Tommy [00:48:09]:
And while in my heart I have ideas about things, I'm not confronting the real problem, which is I'm kind of secreting away. And I have a secret doubt who I can be. I have a secret doubt of who I can be. And I'm looking, yes. To be validated, in a way. Am I normal? But we're not really dealing with the problem. These guys, every time I come in here with some bs or whatever, it is, as you guys say, which is we're joking around, we're playful.

Eldar [00:48:38]:
We're not joking.

Tommy [00:48:40]:
Maybe we're not joking around.

Eldar [00:48:42]:
We all said at the same time.

Anatoliy [00:48:43]:
Every time, you guys, we spun your.

Eldar [00:48:47]:
Bs to our on.

Eldar [00:48:49]:
Yes.

Tommy [00:48:49]:
You will take on this as a challenge to see if Tommy is real about this. And you'll often give me your support as well. You'll say, okay, let's set you up. I'll pay you for your first painting. Why don't I hire you?

Eldar [00:49:03]:
Right?

Tommy [00:49:04]:
You've said that before. Come in here and take photos.

Eldar [00:49:06]:
You understand that I'm willing to pay you not to paint, correct?

Tommy [00:49:10]:
Do you see what I'm saying? They've totally flipped the idea on their.

Vemir [00:49:14]:
Funny, too, the reaction profile.

Tommy [00:49:16]:
And they've said, we'll bankroll you just to sit here and do nothing.

Anatoliy [00:49:22]:
Yeah, we offered him a job full time to sit in a chair for.

Tommy [00:49:25]:
Okay, now, how can you.

Anatoliy [00:49:30]:
No chance.

Tommy [00:49:30]:
How can you, as a person, not confront yourself when faced with that kind of positivity?

Vemir [00:49:37]:
What are you trolling me?

Eldar [00:49:43]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:49:45]:
So what I was saying is there's a fine line. There's a fine line between who you're going to be and who you are now.

Vemir [00:49:51]:
Like Mark Norman, kind of a wise.

Anatoliy [00:49:52]:
Man, once told me, I think that's what's fascinating about really big stupidity can.

Eldar [00:49:58]:
Be.

Anatoliy [00:50:00]:
Mistaken for trolling.

Tommy [00:50:01]:
Listen, what's really fascinating about this is that it was very broad. What we heard was, they must be. There are good things.

Vemir [00:50:10]:
They must be.

Eldar [00:50:11]:
I don't.

Tommy [00:50:13]:
We haven't really listed what any of the things that Mike has experienced as positive or as progress. But it sounds to me like there are a number of things that have gone right.

Eldar [00:50:26]:
We're trying to figure out.

Tommy [00:50:28]:
Having that in mind is, like, have to have in mind that you've achieved certain things and you feel like you're not really making any progress. That's really what's fascinating, because that progress that you make is, like, sort of the goal, the gold that gives faith, that allows you to just continue being yourself, knowing that up to this point, you've really hit it.

Eldar [00:51:03]:
You've hit target.

Tommy [00:51:05]:
So that's important. That's really important, because it sort of refreshes you and says, I can wake up and know that I got it right. Because here's what's working, and right now, I'm living as. So.

Eldar [00:51:21]:
All right, Tom, thank you for sharing.

Anatoliy [00:51:24]:
That was a great testimony.

Eldar [00:51:26]:
No.

Tommy [00:51:26]:
What's crazy? Do you see how that is just like an infinite stretch of everything he has done. Tom, we haven't.

Eldar [00:51:35]:
Rest.

Eldar [00:51:36]:
If you listen hard enough, Tom, I'm still not sure if you're going to be deserving of the knowledge that we're trying to say here. But if you listen hard enough, maybe in a couple of years, it'll ring.

Tommy [00:51:45]:
About some things that Mike said. Mike says, I'm not feeling so right.

Eldar [00:51:48]:
Because that was just the crumbs that was given to us in order for us to uncover something more different, something even bigger.

Vemir [00:51:57]:
Let me just point something.

Anatoliy [00:52:01]:
You just want to make it known for the public. If Tom makes one more statement, I'm willing to give another crack at the couch.

Eldar [00:52:07]:
I'm just saying you better fucking not.

Anatoliy [00:52:12]:
I'm willing to give the couch another crack.

Vemir [00:52:14]:
Yeah, you're feeling more.

Eldar [00:52:16]:
You're boiling down.

Anatoliy [00:52:17]:
Yeah, I'm at that point where I'm very close. Like, one more statement like that, and I have infinite energy.

Tommy [00:52:23]:
Wait, hold on. I do have a problem with the statement that was made, so I'm going to just counter.

Vemir [00:52:30]:
With four.

Tommy [00:52:31]:
When Mike explained that, he went to Eldar and he said, hey, I feel like I'm not making progress.

Mike [00:52:37]:
That's not the point at all, Tom. That was just how we got to the main point, which is we're trying to.

Eldar [00:52:42]:
Okay.

Eldar [00:52:43]:
We're trying to uncover or unlock a very specific thing on the human psyche in order for us to start thinking differently and perceiving ourselves differently and then speaking differently and then acting differently. Right. And being differently and obviously being differently.

Vemir [00:52:57]:
Different.

Eldar [00:52:58]:
Correct. After that, it's a very specific set of events that we're trying to unlock here in order to then pass it on and maybe tell a lot of people about it that, look, you know what I mean? A lot of times the way we perceive ourselves and speak out into the world is incorrect. We're setting ourselves up for negative self talk.

Eldar [00:53:16]:
You know what I mean?

Eldar [00:53:17]:
Because of this. Why? Because we clearly see evidence of people doing the right stuff. Catherine, Mike, whoever else, right? Maybe Tolly, whoever is working on themselves, but they still have negative self talk. They're not recognizing the power or the energy or the good stuff that they should be drawing from the things that they're doing.

Eldar [00:53:35]:
Right.

Eldar [00:53:35]:
You know what I mean? And why is that? It's because the way they see things is incorrectly, but that is because they're attached themselves to a very specific goal or something.

Vemir [00:53:45]:
Delusions.

Eldar [00:53:45]:
Delusions? Yes. That twist their mind to make them. Can you believe that they're doing the right thing but they think they're doing the wrong thing? It's a fuckingundrum.

Vemir [00:53:57]:
Not seeing reality for what it is.

Eldar [00:53:59]:
Yes.

Vemir [00:54:00]:
Now, the thing is, all levity aside.

Eldar [00:54:01]:
They'Re trolling a lot.

Mike [00:54:02]:
That will only come into play when you have that attachment to the end goal, I think.

Eldar [00:54:06]:
Right.

Eldar [00:54:06]:
That's what I'm saying.

Vemir [00:54:07]:
No, if you have your attachment to the wrong goal.

Tommy [00:54:09]:
That was what I'm curious about. What is that end goal?

Vemir [00:54:12]:
Tommy.

Eldar [00:54:12]:
Tommy.

Vemir [00:54:13]:
I wanted to say, I'm not ganging up on you, but you do go on circular path, like you're going circular when you're talking, when you're trying to dig into a subject and you just go around and there's no main point to what you're saying. I think about what I want to say. A point emerges and then I try to explain it. When you talk, you feel like you're exploring as you're talking and it's hard to follow that. And then people have to cut you off.

Eldar [00:54:37]:
So just very good feedback.

Vemir [00:54:41]:
Give yourself a main thing to say and people can follow it, otherwise you're.

Tommy [00:54:44]:
Going, I just kind of lost my thought about this.

Eldar [00:54:46]:
And would you say that if you plan in the mud, you will get dirty 100%?

Vemir [00:54:51]:
I didn't get dirty.

Eldar [00:54:52]:
Right?

Eldar [00:54:53]:
No, you did well. You did well.

Tommy [00:54:56]:
Yeah, you guys did. Want to discuss goals today and end goals and outcomes or something?

Eldar [00:55:01]:
No, we're trying to, number one, raise awareness or shed light onto the fact that a lot of people right here in this room and other people out.

Eldar [00:55:09]:
There in the world are actually talking.

Eldar [00:55:11]:
Negatively to themselves because of the goals that they set themselves.

Vemir [00:55:14]:
Big waste of time and energy.

Eldar [00:55:16]:
That's right.

Eldar [00:55:17]:
Really a lot of times to remove all that and get into the mindset of curiosity. Because if true curiosity, you tap into it, you receive true knowledge. True knowledge will fulfill you and will energize you, and therefore you will feel confident, and therefore you will go into the world not feeling like the loser.

Vemir [00:55:36]:
But here's a very curious mechanism. Why is it that we know when to feel like a loser and we know when we're on the right track.

Eldar [00:55:44]:
Pre programmed the right way, but the.

Vemir [00:55:46]:
Conscience of programming, it's amazing the way we're made. Remarkable that we know when we've unlocked a new discovery. We feel more aligned with life. And then you get more energy.

Eldar [00:55:56]:
That's right.

Vemir [00:55:57]:
So it's almost like part of you, your mind is going all over here, but when you're all aligned in one direction, you know when it's right.

Eldar [00:56:05]:
Correct.

Vemir [00:56:06]:
The mechanism under that is crazy, but it works great.

Eldar [00:56:10]:
It's supposed to work this way.

Vemir [00:56:12]:
We all have this intelligence in us, 100%.

Eldar [00:56:17]:
We're trying to unlock it here. So then people can be empowered, fulfilled, focused to do what they fucking like and then create. Because, fucking incredible.

Vemir [00:56:27]:
The thing is, you have to break the pattern because what happens? You make a week, you don't have to do shit. No, I'm saying, like, here's the reason why I think you have to. Because if you go a week, a year, whatever else, and you're making that mistake of bad goal, wrong goal, bad method, you then have compounded a pack of space that you're going to regret. And then you have to work against that. When you change, you feel better.

Eldar [00:56:52]:
Sure, but you don't want to stack.

Vemir [00:56:54]:
Waste of time and waste of energy.

Eldar [00:56:56]:
No, but negative. It might be necessary depending on how arrogant you are.

Vemir [00:56:59]:
I mean, we all recognize that it is absolutely necessary. But I'm saying if you have the awareness, in my opinion, the more you pay attention, the more quickly you'll improve, the more life you have that you will enjoy.

Eldar [00:57:11]:
That's all I'm saying.

Vemir [00:57:13]:
Pay more attention.

Mike [00:57:14]:
Sure, yeah, let's do it. How do you develop this curiosity? How do you genuinely develop a curiosity.

Eldar [00:57:24]:
To think that way?

Vemir [00:57:26]:
You got to get past yourself a little bit. Do you want to get a big example?

Mike [00:57:31]:
Not for me.

Vemir [00:57:31]:
You don't want to talk about your.

Mike [00:57:32]:
I don't mind.

Vemir [00:57:33]:
I think that would be healthy.

Eldar [00:57:35]:
Talk about yours.

Mike [00:57:35]:
I'm trying to ask what's the methodology for the general people?

Vemir [00:57:38]:
Okay, right.

Mike [00:57:39]:
Because clearly the way we're saying, like.

Eldar [00:57:40]:
Hey, I want to become rich. Let's just say that that's a goal that I have, for example, but I.

Vemir [00:57:46]:
Can'T get specific unless it's an example.

Eldar [00:57:47]:
Right? Okay, sure.

Mike [00:57:49]:
So I'd like to meet a girl.

Eldar [00:57:50]:
To fall in love.

Eldar [00:57:51]:
Okay. Okay.

Mike [00:57:53]:
People set that goal all the time.

Eldar [00:57:55]:
I'm set that goal. Right.

Mike [00:57:57]:
How do you say, okay, now you had this thing. Now get curious about finding out how to actually get there.

Eldar [00:58:04]:
How do you teach people to shift.

Mike [00:58:06]:
The way they think they've been thinking their whole lives?

Vemir [00:58:09]:
Are you a person? Well, it's a change of perspective. So that's why you asked him, because you're limited in your perspective. So you asked another person's consciousness to.

Eldar [00:58:17]:
Give what you're asking.

Vemir [00:58:19]:
One thing you can do, you can ask other people who you see can give you that.

Eldar [00:58:24]:
Well, first of all, I want to scare you. I want to scare you right now. After where we had, hopefully we had a discussion where we both understood that setting goals can be very dangerous for yourself.

Eldar [00:58:34]:
Right.

Eldar [00:58:34]:
So I want to scare you into speaking out loud or setting goals.

Mike [00:58:39]:
Right.

Eldar [00:58:39]:
Okay. So that's that then. I want to probably find out the intricacies of your details in your brain and how things are working in your mind and the things that you're thinking.

Eldar [00:58:48]:
Right.

Eldar [00:58:48]:
All that is to try to uncover and do preventative care. So then you don't fall into speaking incorrectly or doing stuff incorrectly.

Vemir [00:58:56]:
Once you say it out loud, it usually cures half of it anyway. If you say what you want, what you don't want, as you talk, you say, oh, that sounds crazy.

Eldar [00:59:05]:
Are you convinced now that what we're talking about now you have to be very careful on the goals that you set?

Eldar [00:59:10]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:59:11]:
So that was my question. How do I know that I actually want this goal?

Eldar [00:59:15]:
There you go.

Eldar [00:59:15]:
Oh, yeah.

Vemir [00:59:17]:
The best answer is, you got it. When you get the goal, you'll know.

Mike [00:59:20]:
No, but why would you want to go through that?

Eldar [00:59:22]:
Yeah, but that's. Exactly.

Mike [00:59:25]:
How do you know that you probably want this goal? And how do you know? Or how do you try to do things in a specific way?

Eldar [00:59:32]:
Well, I would say the goal setting should be starting from going forward of only things that you are genuinely curious about. So first you have to be curious about something, and then from that curiosity and a knowledge, a body of knowledge that you can build up, goal has to then be born.

Anatoliy [00:59:53]:
No, but he's asking, how do you get curious?

Mike [00:59:55]:
To begin with, how does a person get curious?

Vemir [00:59:57]:
I mean, I don't even understand that question. How can you not be curious about life? Is the bigger question.

Eldar [01:00:03]:
How do you get curious? Wait a second. That means there's something wrong, but by asking yourself, what makes you feel good. And what doesn't start with there?

Eldar [01:00:10]:
No.

Eldar [01:00:11]:
What makes you feel good?

Eldar [01:00:12]:
Like, you know what I mean?

Eldar [01:00:13]:
What are some things that you like to do right now, naturally, that come easy to you?

Vemir [01:00:16]:
Comfortable stuff. That's not curiosity.

Eldar [01:00:19]:
No, but wait a second.

Vemir [01:00:20]:
When I watch the oceans eleven, I feel good. But that's not curiosity. You're saying what makes curiosity.

Eldar [01:00:26]:
Well, no, you could start there and then you could start asking questions.

Vemir [01:00:29]:
I'm trying to get to the thread. I think that your discomfort is the reason why you have the goal. It's not because you have the goal, you have discomfort.

Eldar [01:00:36]:
Do you understand? Yeah, sure.

Vemir [01:00:37]:
So what I'm saying is, when you.

Eldar [01:00:40]:
Say, I want to fall in love.

Vemir [01:00:41]:
With a girl, why you're not fulfilled. Or are you the guy that someone.

Eldar [01:00:45]:
Would fall in love with? Right.

Vemir [01:00:47]:
These are questions to ask to figure out the scape of what the fuck you're talking about. I'm not going to give you the answer. If you came to me, I'm like, well, this is how you get pussy. I'm not saying that. Saying like, why is this emerging in your consciousness?

Eldar [01:01:01]:
Yeah.

Vemir [01:01:02]:
So that thread, that root, either you pull it out or you add water to it, will help you answer the other branches. A lot of people go from leaves, branches, bark, roots. I'm saying go to the roots. Then the rest you'll know what the fruits come from. As a nice analogy, but the thing is, why is this question coming up? Why are you uncomfortable? What place does this have in your life? And what about yourself? Do you feel dissatisfied because a goal is actually coming from something you don't have, by definition. So why are you feeling like you don't have something?

Eldar [01:01:38]:
You know what I mean?

Vemir [01:01:39]:
You kind of get what I'm trying to say, fulfillment aspect. So I think this is a healthy mechanism, and talking it out is very healthy with someone who can go deeper and uncover the base. Roots, threads and essences, they're not going.

Eldar [01:01:51]:
For the leaves, right?

Vemir [01:01:53]:
Oh, go to a bar. That's not a helpful answer. It's like, why is this coming up to?

Anatoliy [01:01:57]:
Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I mean, I agree with the asking of why do you want something?

Eldar [01:02:05]:
And I'm not sure if you go.

Anatoliy [01:02:07]:
Down that hole, if you'll be able to answer it now that I'm thinking about it.

Eldar [01:02:13]:
But I think.

Anatoliy [01:02:15]:
Curiosity has, I would say, almost 100% chance of forming from when you can't answer that question.

Eldar [01:02:22]:
I don't know if that makes sense.

Vemir [01:02:24]:
He's saying that when you dig deeper, curiosity emerges from the why saying that if someone says.

Anatoliy [01:02:31]:
If Mike says, okay, if his goal is to, for example, get into a relationship and fall in love, right? I'm not positive, but maybe if you keep asking him why, I don't know if he'll have an answer.

Eldar [01:02:44]:
And I don't think that he'll attach himself no longer to that same question of a goal.

Anatoliy [01:02:48]:
Well, no, I'm saying that if you keep asking him why, I don't think he'll have an answer. And if he's asking, how does curiosity start? I think it starts from the genuine feeling of actually not being able to answer that question.

Eldar [01:03:06]:
Okay, fine. Sure.

Vemir [01:03:07]:
I have a funny thing about this. Self doubt comes from you knowing that goal is the right goal and knowing that you need it. But it's a fake knowing.

Eldar [01:03:16]:
Right. I have to think about what you just said.

Vemir [01:03:19]:
Like, curiosity is asking why when you're feeling like shit. Because you can't achieve a goal. You're not even asking why. You know, that thing is good for you and I need it and I don't have it, so I feel dissatisfied.

Eldar [01:03:32]:
Right.

Vemir [01:03:33]:
That's an interesting mechanism. It's very sure that I need that thing, but it's a lie. Obviously.

Mike [01:03:38]:
It's a hard to call because people can feel a certain way, but that's actually not the case.

Anatoliy [01:03:42]:
Yeah, I guess it depends on what impression you're under to begin with. Like if you have the wrong perception to begin with about what's going on, the wrong goal, then you're just going to be wrong.

Vemir [01:03:55]:
But there's a particularism in there. But it sounded like you wanted to say something else. I didn't want to throw you off.

Eldar [01:04:02]:
I don't see how curiosity is born out of an arrogant statement or question.

Eldar [01:04:07]:
No, it's not.

Eldar [01:04:09]:
Unless you are on the hands of a person who's questioning you well enough to get you to be curious. But on your own, how the fuck you get there? You don't.

Mike [01:04:18]:
Well, that's what I'm saying.

Vemir [01:04:19]:
How do you get there from curiosity? I mean, how do you get to a curious state?

Eldar [01:04:23]:
Curious state by yourself, without to get.

Vemir [01:04:25]:
Beyond your immediate reaction, who's going to get you there?

Eldar [01:04:28]:
Right? You can do it. Sure.

Eldar [01:04:30]:
But you're attached, right?

Vemir [01:04:35]:
I think it's obvious.

Anatoliy [01:04:36]:
You could tell me something, right? And I could sit here and ask you enough questions where I would say I probably have a high likelihood of getting you angry. I don't know if you have that ability to do that for yourself.

Eldar [01:04:47]:
Yes, I do. I don't think so.

Eldar [01:04:48]:
Get yourself angry.

Vemir [01:04:49]:
I can get myself worked up.

Eldar [01:04:50]:
Then you're very good.

Eldar [01:04:51]:
I beg to differ.

Eldar [01:04:54]:
Well, we'll practice that.

Tommy [01:04:55]:
Important. I don't know how anger is important to you.

Vemir [01:04:58]:
We can practice it.

Eldar [01:04:59]:
What?

Tommy [01:04:59]:
Can you explain why that anger is somehow important to you? What makes you think anger?

Eldar [01:05:05]:
The reason why it's important to bring a different party into the argument is because that other party doesn't have the same horse in a race.

Anatoliy [01:05:12]:
Yes, exactly.

Eldar [01:05:13]:
He or she will ask very specific questions in order to get you to a place to be like, okay, cool, I'm stumped here. There's no real good reason as to why I'm saying this in the first place. You become angry and you're like, wait a second. I thought we were going because this.

Eldar [01:05:25]:
Was a good thing.

Eldar [01:05:26]:
Why are you angry?

Anatoliy [01:05:28]:
You also need a qualified, emotionally intelligent.

Vemir [01:05:31]:
Person will help you get there without you feeling defensive or attacked.

Eldar [01:05:35]:
No, I think the point is actually to get you there to be defensive.

Eldar [01:05:39]:
No.

Eldar [01:05:39]:
Why not?

Vemir [01:05:40]:
People's ears turn off when they're feeling defensive.

Eldar [01:05:43]:
And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that when you get higher.

Vemir [01:05:47]:
Way to do this. A lot of people, I've struggled with.

Tommy [01:05:51]:
This, so that could be true.

Mike [01:05:51]:
No, I think we have to unpack the importance here. What they're saying. It's important because the person who is setting a goal and not achieving it and keeps setting the same goal going in circles, for example, that person. But a lot of people are most people setting the same goals and they're not achieving them. They get into relationships, they get out of relationship.

Eldar [01:06:12]:
So we can agree that our job.

Mike [01:06:13]:
They don't make millions of dollars. But the problem is, this is why most people are arrogant. Too arrogant to get curious.

Vemir [01:06:22]:
They so sure of how to get.

Mike [01:06:24]:
There, but they don't know.

Vemir [01:06:25]:
This is the mechanism of the ego. Because the ego is sure of itself, quote unquote. And when it's sure of itself, it holds its feet in the sand, right? It will defend that until it's like. And then when it's challenged, how can all the extrapolations of the ego, how.

Mike [01:06:42]:
Can that be curious, right? How can ego rooted in the curious?

Vemir [01:06:46]:
How can it be curious? It already knows everything. I don't need to know anymore.

Eldar [01:06:49]:
I can tell you because you're not better.

Vemir [01:06:51]:
And it's this escapism. Now when the ego cracks apart, you realize Socrates said, right? Only thing I know is that I know nothing. This is a display of non ego. Because he's saying, now make people believe no, no, I'm saying the hard part is that I asked this question actually in another context. I'll save you the story. It's a very beautiful story, but why.

Eldar [01:07:16]:
Would you do that?

Mike [01:07:17]:
Why would you not let us have.

Vemir [01:07:18]:
A beautiful story for the record?

Eldar [01:07:20]:
Well, if it's very beautiful, I was.

Vemir [01:07:23]:
Speaking to a priest, okay?

Mike [01:07:25]:
It was one of those kind of stories.

Eldar [01:07:27]:
Were you sitting on his lap while you're doing it?

Vemir [01:07:29]:
No, fully standing.

Eldar [01:07:30]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:07:30]:
That's why I didn't bring it up, because we're going to be layered with same jokes. We're in the church, and it was really good to see each other. He knew me since I was a little kid. And we're talking about.

Eldar [01:07:40]:
Deep hugs were exchanged.

Vemir [01:07:41]:
What I'm doing.

Eldar [01:07:42]:
What's that like? Deep hugs were exchanged.

Vemir [01:07:44]:
Deep hugs. A shaking of hand, like genuine.

Mike [01:07:47]:
Wanted to kiss on the cheek or no.

Vemir [01:07:49]:
Kiss on the cheek or no. So we talked about things, and I said. I had this question that bubbled up in front of me. I said, with this era of AI, whatever else, I feel like we need God more now than ever. Ever, for example. And he said, absolutely. And I said, there's something like, at my age level, I feel like there's like a tension, like bringing these things up, these principles. And included in this is awareness and philosophical thought, even deep thought.

Vemir [01:08:18]:
But I was talking about God in.

Eldar [01:08:19]:
The context of the priest.

Vemir [01:08:20]:
I said, it almost feels like tension or cringe or people don't want to talk about it. And he just like, all that stuff I was trying to say is like, it's not cool to talk about this stuff anymore. And the rational mind feeling like it knows everything, and we can use the scientific method only and whatever else, not.

Eldar [01:08:37]:
To get too hairy.

Vemir [01:08:39]:
Or I can explain that part, but here's the point. He paused and he said, never cast the pearls before the pig. Don't cast pearls before swine.

Eldar [01:08:51]:
Right?

Eldar [01:08:51]:
This is like, don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Eldar [01:08:54]:
No.

Mike [01:08:54]:
Don't dangle diamonds in front of pigs.

Vemir [01:08:56]:
You guys are messing.

Eldar [01:08:57]:
I really don't know what this means.

Vemir [01:08:59]:
I've never heard of don't cast pearls before swine. I've never seen this before. The thread of that under that is just very simply to say that many people will not be able to receive good advice because they're still asleep. You're giving them the beautiful advice, and they're just like, this is not my slop. I'm trying to eat slop because I'm a pig.

Eldar [01:09:22]:
Yeah, I'm a pig.

Vemir [01:09:23]:
And it's just an analogy, but it's a pearl, and they don't even recognize.

Eldar [01:09:27]:
The value of it. Okay, got it.

Vemir [01:09:28]:
And the reason why this advice is given is because people who are good, who have worked hard, awaken themselves a bit. They want to help and share because they're now more aware. They see everybody's suffering. Said, I went through that at least a little bit. I can help. And then they get frustrated because the other people are not listening to them.

Eldar [01:09:45]:
Because they didn't learn. One advice. Don't teach when I ask.

Eldar [01:09:47]:
Exactly.

Vemir [01:09:48]:
But even more than don't teach when ask is also, it's a huge waste because people may come to you just because they're living their life. They see you living your life well, and then they'll come to you.

Eldar [01:10:05]:
Or there's like a timing.

Vemir [01:10:08]:
Everybody has their own timing. You woke up at your own time. You came to the people when you were ready. So if you recognize that process, they too will go to somebody when they're ready. And you have to release the tension. I'm learning this actively right now. You have to release the tension of seeing someone not sticking to what you're saying, even though you know better, even though you see them doing it again, because they need to learn their lesson until it's fully solid and they learn it for real. And what I realized about that is I became very relaxed about unloading all of my stuff, even cultural stuff.

Vemir [01:10:42]:
You got to watch this movie, you got to check out. You got to go to the museum with me. It's so important not to trail on too much.

Eldar [01:10:48]:
Just to say it gives me a lot of security to feel like I'm on my path.

Vemir [01:10:56]:
I'm seeking the wisdom. I'm seeking the answer. And the more you preach, Socrates, he had maybe the ten students at the time who he had, that was enough. And he is the most memorable. And Plato, I mean, Socrates, first, they are the most memorable first philosophers. So the ripple effect may be beyond what you understand. And I think not worrying about someone.

Eldar [01:11:21]:
Not taking it, you just do your.

Vemir [01:11:23]:
Thing, you learn, and then you try to be the best listener possible.

Eldar [01:11:27]:
I agree with this, but you were.

Anatoliy [01:11:29]:
Also going to explain, how does that tie into us about how making someone angry and questioning is a bad thing?

Eldar [01:11:38]:
Oh, yeah.

Vemir [01:11:38]:
Okay, so I had this conversation with many people, and you have a better.

Eldar [01:11:44]:
Method as well, so maybe you can enlighten us on that as well.

Vemir [01:11:46]:
So I have an alternative method. I use your method when it's necessary. I had a friend who was fucking.

Eldar [01:11:52]:
Up with the law.

Vemir [01:11:53]:
I checked him. I mean, I tried to do the soft approach, the regular approach, and then I sat him in a car and yelled and said this, and it got through finally. So it's like, I'm not saying your methodology is wrong at all. I use it too. Put people kind of like, wake up.

Eldar [01:12:11]:
But the thing is, here's the important part.

Vemir [01:12:15]:
When I was younger, like in my teens and early 20s, really philosophically intense, I would start arguments to win them.

Eldar [01:12:23]:
I would be this just challenging guy, and it was annoying.

Vemir [01:12:28]:
And I feel like I was also putting people on the spot because they had cultural attachments. Like, why don't you like this too? Or why don't. I mean, smarter than that? That sounds dumb.

Eldar [01:12:41]:
But the point is, I would challenge.

Vemir [01:12:44]:
Everything and I would have people be on the spot and they didn't feel safe around me. So when I really had some thing to say, they felt like they were on the defense with me or that I was going to call them out on every little thing. This is not presented well, that part.

Eldar [01:12:58]:
But here's the point.

Vemir [01:13:01]:
Someone I know speaks the truth, but it's a little bit out of pocket and it's like a soft voice and it's not really well heard. But they're right when they say it.

Eldar [01:13:11]:
They're like predictive ahead of time.

Vemir [01:13:13]:
What I learned from this is that if you want to say something that's a hard truth, sometimes it's better to.

Eldar [01:13:20]:
Warm them up, soften the blow, and.

Vemir [01:13:23]:
Then it's right there and they learn it very clearly. Not that you're saying it lightly, but you're saying it clearly in a way that's not intrusive. I've had people in the same advice given, be defensive, be closed off, feel like they're being attacked, emotionally barraged, and just finding every rational way to counter me. And then the same advice, I gave it soft, warmly. After listening to the whole thing of their problem, after making them feel heard, it went right through and they did exactly what was. You know what I mean, like, the outcome was completely different because of the necessary personality situation, that kind of alignment. Does that make sense?

Eldar [01:14:04]:
Yeah, but are you under the impression that I'm not doing the evaluation of each character?

Vemir [01:14:08]:
No, I'm saying we might have even the same level of evaluation. I'm saying that sometimes you could say you're being fucking stupid. And that wakes them up. Sometimes it just shuts them off. They think, this guy's an asshole. Sometimes you need to be like, look, you have to be a little bit more like make them feel like they're there with you, that you heard them. And now you deliver the good stuff and they're ready for that. And then you have them confirm that they heard it correctly enough that you would approve for it.

Eldar [01:14:38]:
Right.

Vemir [01:14:39]:
And I think this is extremely. When you're sensitive like this, people will get through to you. Like, some people you can speak to deadpan. Some people you need to smile a bit more. Some people, you just need to message them and they can read it later or something. The methodology matters more than I think that you're emphasizing. There's multiple ways to get the same message across beautifully.

Eldar [01:15:07]:
Yeah. Okay. In my opinion.

Eldar [01:15:10]:
No, I heard you loud and clear, and I completely agree with everything that you said.

Eldar [01:15:14]:
I have nothing to disagree with.

Eldar [01:15:16]:
I think maybe you underestimate the power of alderism.

Eldar [01:15:20]:
Not to be tooting my own horn here. You know what I'm saying?

Eldar [01:15:25]:
You haven't been around long enough to know.

Vemir [01:15:27]:
No, I think in my observation, your methodology is wake the fuck up. You're fucking up. And here's how you break it.

Eldar [01:15:34]:
And that's a perception that I don't need to fight.

Vemir [01:15:37]:
And that's good methodology. And I'm saying that there's no. I'm saying that I found work for some people.

Eldar [01:15:43]:
No, you can make a judgment call that it's a good methodology. I'm not even going to fight the fact that you might not even know what the methodology is. But if that's how you perceive it, I'm okay with that.

Eldar [01:15:51]:
What am I missing?

Eldar [01:15:53]:
I mean, everything.

Vemir [01:15:55]:
No, what am I missing there?

Eldar [01:15:57]:
Everything you just said. Everything you just said. What if I told you that everything you just said or made examples out of. I don't even have to co sign it. My friends can cosign it that I.

Eldar [01:16:06]:
Do this ten x more than what I said. Correct.

Vemir [01:16:11]:
Oh, so then I didn't get it wrong. I just didn't say it enough.

Eldar [01:16:13]:
Like that's.

Vemir [01:16:14]:
Level one is level ten.

Eldar [01:16:15]:
Yeah.

Vemir [01:16:16]:
Okay.

Eldar [01:16:16]:
Right or no?

Anatoliy [01:16:17]:
Yeah, but it has nothing to do. The examples that you were bringing up is like shaking the person out, raising your voice or something like that. I was just more talking about questioning.

Eldar [01:16:30]:
Right.

Anatoliy [01:16:30]:
Because I think when you start asking questions, you'll probably see that people don't have answers to them. And when they don't, I think it probably, more times than not, it leads to anger.

Vemir [01:16:43]:
But that's the evaluation. That's fine. I'm saying the methodology, like exploring that, is different.

Eldar [01:16:49]:
No, I think there's a place for what he's saying. I think there is a place for.

Vemir [01:16:52]:
What he's saying we're doing in all of our.

Eldar [01:16:54]:
Yeah, at the end of the day, at least, what we're trying to get back to the point of finding out. How do you birth curiosity? True curiosity. And if the individual is not, let's just say it's not in their karma for the lack of better words yet is able to dive into true curiosity, then they're going to get stumped. They're going to get angry, right? And they're going to part ways and they're going to start over.

Vemir [01:17:15]:
They're going to hate you for giving them the right answer, which is perfect.

Anatoliy [01:17:20]:
Allowing arrogance more common. Allowing arrogance. Anger to come out is a good thing because I strongly believe that it's a very limited resource and the more that you bring it out, you're going to eventually be depleted of it because.

Eldar [01:17:37]:
It'S going to deplete you.

Anatoliy [01:17:38]:
It's going to deplete you.

Eldar [01:17:39]:
Right.

Anatoliy [01:17:39]:
Because you can't continuously. It's not a strong enough.

Eldar [01:17:50]:
In other words, this is why Tommy hides a lot. That's why he can only come here.

Tommy [01:17:53]:
Like every 30 days to roughly steal from an author. Shots of espresso before an author who I admire. We stuff our feelings. We want to tell other people. We want to just fucking tell them. Or typically we just ignore those feelings that we feel. But I think what t is saying, you're saying, like, use it. Use that anger like it's fueled.

Eldar [01:18:17]:
No, that's not what he's saying.

Tommy [01:18:18]:
Because when I was thinking about anger, I was thinking about how it points me in the right direction.

Eldar [01:18:24]:
Ramirez saying it's a bad thing to feel those feelings or that come out and totally is actually very necessary because if we continue to have a conversation long enough, sooner or later somebody's going to give up. And he doesn't think that the person who's doing the questioning is going to give up. That person is genuinely curious to find out why. Do you think the way you think and the other person can give you the answers to tell you sooner or later they're going to get angry and then they become becoming receptive.

Eldar [01:18:50]:
Yes.

Anatoliy [01:18:50]:
And genuine anger.

Vemir [01:18:51]:
What about Dennis rock elder?

Tommy [01:18:55]:
What if it's not necessarily true? Just in that moment? They might not have the answer, but they have the answer.

Eldar [01:19:00]:
They don't have the answer.

Vemir [01:19:01]:
No, that's not the point. What he's saying is that anger emergent is a good thing. It's like a revelation for you. And then eventually angry hold on. Anger as it dies down, leaves them with nothing except to listen.

Eldar [01:19:17]:
Right.

Vemir [01:19:17]:
I mean, that's part of it, but.

Eldar [01:19:19]:
What was your question? My question is, like, for example, Dennis.

Vemir [01:19:24]:
Rocks, when you had that discussion and a little bit of trolling. Who am I? Who am.

Eldar [01:19:29]:
Yeah.

Vemir [01:19:29]:
Was he a better listener after.

Tommy [01:19:32]:
Wait, Dennis with one or two.

Vemir [01:19:34]:
Dennis rocks or whatever.

Eldar [01:19:37]:
I can't measure whether or not he was a better listener afterwards, but I think he's getting closer to where he's supposed to be.

Eldar [01:19:43]:
Okay.

Eldar [01:19:44]:
Because I'm respecting of his process. We understand where he's at and we're.

Eldar [01:19:48]:
Completely okay with it.

Vemir [01:19:50]:
Yes. However, the thing is, which you mentioned.

Eldar [01:19:54]:
Earlier, that this is important to recognize where people are on their own little development stages. And this is okay. So if he's not receptive right now, I'm okay with that.

Vemir [01:20:04]:
Yeah, but I think not everybody. The elderism avenue is not always the.

Eldar [01:20:14]:
Last step of what to get to the next.

Vemir [01:20:18]:
There are other ways to get to 100%.

Eldar [01:20:21]:
You know I what mean.

Eldar [01:20:21]:
Yeah, but if elderism is talking about certain truth that is objective and universal, it's not elderism.

Eldar [01:20:30]:
Right.

Vemir [01:20:31]:
Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying your methodology, you're going to.

Eldar [01:20:34]:
Get there regardless with elderism or not.

Eldar [01:20:36]:
Right. And there's some people that cannot get there with your method. Sure.

Vemir [01:20:41]:
But why wouldn't you expand your method.

Eldar [01:20:43]:
So that more people can listen to you?

Anatoliy [01:20:52]:
I think it's a few things. I think one is that I don't think that there necessarily needs to be attachment for more or less people to learn something, because I also think that those will learn. Yeah. My understanding also with.

Vemir [01:21:11]:
Strong answer, though.

Eldar [01:21:12]:
You don't know the ripples of one listener.

Eldar [01:21:15]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [01:21:15]:
My understanding also with elderism is that I think the big difference in other people's methodology is that other methodologies are willing to. I guess the best way of saying it, my understanding of it is that.

Vemir [01:21:35]:
What you're going to say, coddle.

Anatoliy [01:21:38]:
Well, coddle potentially in it, but more in the way of, if you want to experience elderism, it's going to not allow your ego in those moments to exist. And I think more methodologies aren't willing to. I disagree to go there.

Vemir [01:21:58]:
I think I have a lot of.

Eldar [01:22:00]:
Real examples of where people were arguing.

Vemir [01:22:06]:
And bickering to solve a problem, and then calmly I gave them the essence of what they were trying to say, and they listened to me with good ears because my presentation was not.

Anatoliy [01:22:15]:
No, but I think that you're missing the point that is not about arguing, bickering.

Vemir [01:22:21]:
It's not about challenging.

Eldar [01:22:24]:
Right.

Vemir [01:22:24]:
Well, it's a little bit strongly challenging. You just said ten x.

Eldar [01:22:28]:
No, I think it's paying very close attention to what's actually going on.

Vemir [01:22:31]:
I think that's like the base foundation.

Eldar [01:22:34]:
Of what we're talking about.

Vemir [01:22:35]:
We all need to pay very close attention to what's happening. I'm saying that the way that you investigate someone's issue and getting through their ego.

Eldar [01:22:47]:
I'm just saying that kind of like.

Vemir [01:22:51]:
Cold water in the face, feeling like they're on the spotlight, a lot of.

Eldar [01:22:55]:
People I see have a bad reaction.

Vemir [01:22:57]:
For me, it's fine. You can press me forever. It'll be fun.

Eldar [01:23:00]:
But it's like, I disagree. You think there's trigger points for me?

Anatoliy [01:23:04]:
No, I know there's trigger points.

Vemir [01:23:05]:
Okay, so there's trigger points. But I'm saying, like, the important part of what I'm saying there is that some people will get the lesson and it will be very calm without their ego being checked. It's like the ego doesn't even need to rise up.

Anatoliy [01:23:23]:
Yeah. First off, I think in those examples, I don't think that those people get the lesson because I think without your ego being defeated, and I don't think that you're able to learn.

Eldar [01:23:35]:
Your ego is your ego.

Vemir [01:23:37]:
You're saying these are for people who are bad listeners.

Eldar [01:23:39]:
You're talking about that. What?

Vemir [01:23:40]:
People who are poor listeners, you have to wake them up with a bit of ego check because a good listener doesn't.

Anatoliy [01:23:46]:
Poor listeners are going to suffer more.

Eldar [01:23:50]:
You're not hearing what I'm saying.

Vemir [01:23:51]:
A poor listener needs to be woken.

Eldar [01:23:53]:
Up with a stronger alarm.

Anatoliy [01:23:55]:
No.

Eldar [01:23:56]:
Okay. No.

Anatoliy [01:23:58]:
A poor listener needs to just. You only need what you actually need. I guess what I'm saying is I have no attachment whether you listen or not.

Eldar [01:24:09]:
What I'm saying, a good listener is.

Vemir [01:24:12]:
Someone that doesn't need the ego flare up to learn something. They could just listen, analyze, not take it personally automatically.

Anatoliy [01:24:19]:
That does not exist.

Mike [01:24:21]:
No, it does exist, but I think it's situational. Sometimes a person comes in, right, they're ready to listen, another time they're not ready.

Eldar [01:24:29]:
Depends.

Vemir [01:24:31]:
Let's talk about their base level then.

Mike [01:24:33]:
No, it's not. Because base level changes you might not be attached to.

Vemir [01:24:37]:
I'm saying that when I'm really disturbed, do you think my base level is at the same as, let's say, Tommy, as when he's disturbed?

Eldar [01:24:48]:
No.

Vemir [01:24:48]:
I'm going to check myself more often, maybe.

Eldar [01:24:51]:
No, but it's dependent if I come.

Vemir [01:24:53]:
With Eldar.

Eldar [01:24:57]:
Because right now.

Tommy [01:25:00]:
Agitated.

Anatoliy [01:25:02]:
I could challenge you right now on something that is very not dear to you or that you don't have potentially they're like strong feeling towards. Or maybe you don't view yourself as very experienced in.

Eldar [01:25:14]:
That's all.

Anatoliy [01:25:15]:
You're going to feel a particular way towards it.

Vemir [01:25:17]:
But there's now universal. Universal base.

Eldar [01:25:20]:
Hold on, let me finish.

Anatoliy [01:25:23]:
No, I'm talking about you. If there's something right now that you feel strongly about, that you're convinced that you have the answer to, for example. Right. Your ego is way more likely to flare up and you're going to have a harder time with those challenges.

Eldar [01:25:39]:
Everybody.

Anatoliy [01:25:40]:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Vemir [01:25:42]:
And that's why I said, because that applies to everybody. The base level is important. I'm saying that if you don't have.

Eldar [01:25:48]:
The ability to actually pay attention and bring out that which is actually living in that individual, I think you're doing a bad job and injustice to them.

Vemir [01:25:56]:
But that's different just on this.

Eldar [01:25:58]:
And if it's ego that you need to oust, you need to oust that ego.

Eldar [01:26:01]:
Right.

Vemir [01:26:02]:
But I'm saying some people, universally, across all subjects will have less of a reaction.

Eldar [01:26:08]:
Those are what we call good listeners.

Eldar [01:26:10]:
If they were good listeners, they wouldn't be in the position that they were in.

Eldar [01:26:13]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:26:13]:
Maybe you haven't had an interaction with them.

Vemir [01:26:16]:
Yeah, no, I'm saying, like difficult conversation. I'm saying that you can have a difficult conversation, but it's a little bit easier than someone that's not used to it.

Mike [01:26:24]:
Yeah, maybe I find the sensitive in a spot.

Vemir [01:26:26]:
There's some people that are just way.

Eldar [01:26:27]:
Less breakable because their ego has been.

Vemir [01:26:31]:
Dropped a little bit. You can get better over time. You can never disturb them.

Anatoliy [01:26:37]:
I don't think that there's good listeners. I think good listeners are created in moment to moment basis through.

Mike [01:26:46]:
It's a receptiveness.

Vemir [01:26:47]:
I don't want us to get too.

Eldar [01:26:48]:
Much into unnecessary particulars.

Vemir [01:26:52]:
I think we're kind of saying the same thing.

Eldar [01:26:53]:
I'm trying to think like this. Like a wake up call method. Would you call it that?

Tommy [01:27:01]:
I have a question.

Eldar [01:27:04]:
Like I said, I'm not sure if you're understanding the reason why it's being challenged in the first place. I don't think you have the history or the relationship in order to be able to speak on it in an educated way. I think you've seen maybe certain tactics, maybe you've seen certain things you haven't actually dove into, actually understand what it actually entails. No, I think that 100%. I'm not expecting for him, for a stranger.

Eldar [01:27:31]:
Right.

Eldar [01:27:31]:
To be able to understand what it entails. Why? Because he has not seen the true elderism that he's trying to quote. He has no idea what it is.

Eldar [01:27:41]:
And that's okay with me.

Mike [01:27:42]:
He's trying to quote the Dennis alderism 100%.

Eldar [01:27:45]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:27:46]:
So I think maybe there might have been some misrepresentation.

Eldar [01:27:50]:
You're probably right.

Vemir [01:27:52]:
So let's say when I bring up an issue that I'm talking about, you remember when we do that and you have these things that are kind of.

Eldar [01:28:00]:
Like, pinching a little bit? You go like you're a piece of.

Vemir [01:28:05]:
Shit, and it's like someone can get really taken aback, and then when you explain that a little bit more, they.

Eldar [01:28:10]:
Get it, and then you go deeper.

Vemir [01:28:13]:
And then you explore, and then kind of, like, core elements come up, like self love, compassion, rush.

Eldar [01:28:17]:
Do I not do a good job of listening to what you're actually. You saying?

Vemir [01:28:20]:
Yes, you do.

Eldar [01:28:20]:
Do I not a good job catching you when you're falling.

Eldar [01:28:23]:
He's also a good pincher. Yeah.

Vemir [01:28:25]:
No, all of these am I not.

Eldar [01:28:26]:
A good job of. You keep coming back and you giving me then compliments as to, like, you made me think about that.

Vemir [01:28:30]:
Absolutely.

Eldar [01:28:31]:
You better be careful with what you're saying.

Vemir [01:28:32]:
Oh, you felt misrepresented.

Eldar [01:28:34]:
No, I'm not saying that. I don't care about this. I'm saying that you yourself have already receipts, and I have receipts already to show that you enjoy the process.

Eldar [01:28:45]:
Right.

Vemir [01:28:45]:
Which made you think on me.

Eldar [01:28:47]:
Well, who else are we talking about?

Vemir [01:28:50]:
Saying that?

Eldar [01:28:50]:
I don't give a fuck about anybody.

Vemir [01:28:51]:
Else who's not here.

Eldar [01:28:53]:
You know what I'm saying? Who's not here?

Vemir [01:28:54]:
There's other people who can't go there with you.

Eldar [01:28:58]:
That's okay.

Anatoliy [01:28:58]:
And they're not deserving of it.

Eldar [01:29:00]:
That's just okay.

Anatoliy [01:29:01]:
Who the fuck are they to benefit from good things? They're not willing to lower the ego.

Eldar [01:29:08]:
What I'm saying is, if you have the ability right now to be able to perceive it, the way for what it is and benefit from it, I think I've accomplished my job, and you benefit it. I'm very lucky.

Vemir [01:29:17]:
I got the headphone.

Eldar [01:29:19]:
There you go. You're going to be here up until a point where you can't be here, and that's okay.

Anatoliy [01:29:23]:
Damir, I think the pinches that you're.

Vemir [01:29:26]:
Talking about, what does that mean? You'll understand where I can't.

Eldar [01:29:31]:
Yeah. If this shit don't vibe with you, it won't vibe with you, and that's okay. You will part ways, you go your separate way, and this is okay. This is, of course.

Anatoliy [01:29:41]:
That I think lots of times the pinches are meant. My understanding is that lots of times they're meant to put a feeler out for levels of commitment from the other person.

Eldar [01:29:59]:
Well, listen, he's been in it for so long, he can't speak about it, I think, competently.

Anatoliy [01:30:04]:
Lots of times people will prove that they're not willing to be in it, and they have a problem with the pinches right away. And then it just becomes straight, like trolling.

Vemir [01:30:13]:
Not going to listen.

Eldar [01:30:13]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [01:30:14]:
Now it becomes more trolling. But I think that if you can endure the pinches to check your levels.

Eldar [01:30:20]:
Of commitment and stay committed, you then.

Anatoliy [01:30:23]:
Prove that you're saying that, hey, I'm willing to listen now. Right. I think lots of other methods, they more have sensitivity to people's more feelings, and they don't properly qualify whether they're actually willing to listen or not.

Mike [01:30:41]:
You got to check the ego.

Vemir [01:30:42]:
Too much of a bifurcation.

Eldar [01:30:44]:
Yeah. I'm very sensitive to people's quirky things or things that they've developed and stuff like that. So I see them right away and I point them out in, like, little pinches here and there.

Eldar [01:30:55]:
Right.

Eldar [01:30:56]:
So because of that, I see there are certain things that don't actually serve you as a human. Right. And if you then co sign yourself.

Anatoliy [01:31:03]:
By, like, if you say right now, like, hey, guys, I need help.

Eldar [01:31:08]:
Right.

Anatoliy [01:31:09]:
I would say most methodologies. Reaction to that is like, okay, let's help famir. My reaction at least is, let's see.

Eldar [01:31:17]:
Yeah. What are you talking about?

Anatoliy [01:31:20]:
And that's off the bat.

Eldar [01:31:21]:
Let me.

Anatoliy [01:31:22]:
Bad feeling to the other person.

Vemir [01:31:23]:
So that means you don't know enough about other methodologies. You're kind of caricatureizing them. It's not what I'm talking about.

Eldar [01:31:28]:
Like, catering, making someone feel good for the moment.

Vemir [01:31:32]:
I wouldn't ever defend that methodology.

Tommy [01:31:35]:
Try to distill what you're saying.

Eldar [01:31:41]:
Because.

Eldar [01:31:41]:
Here'S what.

Tommy [01:31:45]:
I hear him saying. I'm empathetic. I hear him saying, like, I like to.

Eldar [01:31:52]:
Let me throw my credentials in here, right? I got my bachelor's in philosophy, and I got my master's in mental health counseling. I wholeheartedly believe in an unconditional, positive regard. I wholeheartedly believe in that as to be the number one thing when it comes to the actual setting of a therapeutic setting to earn trust.

Vemir [01:32:10]:
I'm not saying he's not empathetic by any way.

Eldar [01:32:13]:
And then we can have a conversation.

Eldar [01:32:15]:
Yeah.

Vemir [01:32:16]:
So I wanted to bring something up, though. Have you seen those sad songs when, like sad guru or Muji or whatever's talking. You ever seen those?

Eldar [01:32:27]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:32:28]:
Yeah, I've been to.

Eldar [01:32:29]:
Yeah. Okay.

Vemir [01:32:29]:
Yeah, I've been to a couple, too. And I feel like the Osho, I went to Soguru.

Eldar [01:32:34]:
Yeah, okay.

Vemir [01:32:35]:
Yeah, me too. So I feel like, especially when you're in a monastery, already meditated, already went through whatever you're walking in nature and stuff like that, then you're kind of.

Eldar [01:32:47]:
In a space of equanimity.

Vemir [01:32:51]:
And that's where, for me, sometimes I need to be challenged, and sometimes I.

Eldar [01:32:57]:
Need to feel like I am in this.

Vemir [01:33:02]:
Not neutral, but kind of like, centered space. And then I'm receptive, and then new, healthy brain patterns happen.

Eldar [01:33:12]:
Sorry.

Vemir [01:33:12]:
Healthy brainwaves happen, and then new emergent. And then I'm listening, and I don't feel like that cloud of judgment, ego and stuff. So the ego can disappear in a flash, or it can kind of disappear in this warm, centered space, in a way, in a meditative space, and then they're kind of delivering stuff. Because I feel like sometimes what you're trying to do is extremely healthy, is you're trying to just pinch through the cloud that they're seeing you through, like, they can't even see or hear you.

Eldar [01:33:40]:
So you're just like, what should get a point.

Vemir [01:33:43]:
So that's great. And then sometimes I feel like it.

Eldar [01:33:46]:
Might be healthy to bring people into.

Vemir [01:33:50]:
If you can, a centered state to where they're present with you. So the whole idea is both sides of getting someone present to be there, to have that exchange.

Anatoliy [01:34:00]:
So I'm saying, yeah, I just don't think if it's necessarily important to have an attachment in the present moment for.

Eldar [01:34:10]:
That person to be receptive. Yeah.

Tommy [01:34:14]:
What he's saying is you don't have to be trapped in a sense of being virtuous to help this other person.

Eldar [01:34:21]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:34:23]:
I agree. But I'm saying that even if you take your own attachment out, having the.

Eldar [01:34:28]:
Awareness, like, is someone listening to me?

Vemir [01:34:32]:
And how will they start listening to the good advice that they need or something like that, I think is important.

Eldar [01:34:38]:
Yeah.

Tommy [01:34:38]:
But then again, value virtues.

Eldar [01:34:41]:
You're again making attachment. You're making an attachment to the outcome.

Vemir [01:34:45]:
No.

Eldar [01:34:46]:
Where you're like, hey, he's going to be more receptive if we do yoga. Together. You know what I'm saying?

Vemir [01:34:51]:
I'm not saying that. I'm saying, like, let go of the attachment. If I come in, I have no skin in the game of the couch, but I see it and I say that angle. Well, this didn't happen.

Eldar [01:35:03]:
Right.

Vemir [01:35:04]:
But that angle will allow it to go in.

Eldar [01:35:06]:
Right.

Vemir [01:35:08]:
And if I see the angle that you're doing is not allowing it to go in, for example, then it's just an effect. It's not about my stake in the game. So aside from the attachment, don't you.

Eldar [01:35:17]:
Think that it's good to have multiple toolkits stake in the game?

Tommy [01:35:22]:
Meaning you're not concerned with the outcome.

Eldar [01:35:25]:
Yeah.

Vemir [01:35:26]:
Yes, but that's not the point of.

Tommy [01:35:27]:
Okay, because we brought this up the other day, and where it comes from is from. I think it's Kant deontology, right. The idea that following principles is the only thing that matters. It's not necessarily the outcome of the thing that matters. I think morality is like a proscriptive thing. It's something that you. Sorry. Morality is like a subtle difference between ethics and morality.

Tommy [01:35:56]:
Morality says, here's how we should behave. Here are some ways that we do behave. We should behave these ways. But ethics are more like.

Eldar [01:36:11]:
Why do we behave the way we do?

Tommy [01:36:15]:
Yeah, something like that. It's like we proscribe.

Eldar [01:36:20]:
If what you just said, you try.

Eldar [01:36:23]:
To confuse us, you accomplish that.

Vemir [01:36:27]:
Do you remember my question? No.

Eldar [01:36:28]:
Yeah, so you made an example that I come over here. I have no attachment.

Vemir [01:36:35]:
Mr. Madison, every time I'm here with.

Tommy [01:36:39]:
You guys, insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul. So let me explain why this idea of principles and not outcomes to billiam is important. Because it doesn't relate to morality.

Eldar [01:37:15]:
Mike, did you remember that question?

Tommy [01:37:16]:
It's amoral. It's an amoral statement.

Vemir [01:37:19]:
Write it down, Mike.

Eldar [01:37:20]:
What was the question? He'll tell you it again, Tom. 1 second.

Vemir [01:37:24]:
Repeat the question.

Eldar [01:37:24]:
Yeah, Tom.

Tommy [01:37:26]:
So deontology is just.

Vemir [01:37:29]:
Repeat just the question.

Tommy [01:37:31]:
It concerns basically not saying that the good life, living a good life requires just following a certain set of principles and not dealing with future outcomes. So it sets principles over future outcomes.

Vemir [01:37:49]:
What is the question?

Tommy [01:37:50]:
And that's kind of like, okay, yeah, sure.

Eldar [01:37:52]:
And I'll give you an example of that. You coming in here talking about the couch. Hey, I got a better angle. And then you don't have a horse and raise, but you offer your advice without being asked.

Eldar [01:38:00]:
That's a crime. Without being asked is different. Yeah, this is what I'm saying.

Eldar [01:38:07]:
That you may be under the impression that elderism somehow is offering advice when people are not asked.

Vemir [01:38:11]:
No, I'm just talking about pure methodology. We're on the same page.

Eldar [01:38:16]:
Yeah, I think that I give the time and day, and maybe you're not.

Vemir [01:38:19]:
Asking me for my opinion on that subject. Maybe it's less interesting than the original thing. I just wanted to explore this. What do you think?

Eldar [01:38:29]:
Do you not want to talk about it anymore?

Anatoliy [01:38:32]:
On what?

Eldar [01:38:32]:
Sorry?

Vemir [01:38:33]:
On just the idea of investigating deeply into the why until they get it and doing those checks. You said to wake them up or see if they're listening. This is different than some ways that.

Eldar [01:38:48]:
I would approach it in terms of.

Vemir [01:38:50]:
Waking them up, seeing if they're listening.

Eldar [01:38:51]:
You would have to then compare effectiveness. You know what I'm saying? And until you have some kind of evidence.

Vemir [01:39:00]:
Independent.

Eldar [01:39:01]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:39:01]:
You know what I mean? Ultimately, I'm not happy with my approach. It sounds like you might be still irony out yours.

Vemir [01:39:10]:
No, I'm saying that I have used. Okay, let me rephrase the question. Have you used different approaches or how.

Eldar [01:39:20]:
Fine tuned is your to the person?

Vemir [01:39:24]:
Or is it usually the same?

Eldar [01:39:27]:
I ask a lot of questions. I get very curious to a point.

Eldar [01:39:30]:
Where a person have not been curious about themselves the way I do get curious about them.

Vemir [01:39:33]:
Okay, this is the main thread, the main tool.

Eldar [01:39:37]:
And then as we start developing a rapport, there's trust developed and stuff like that. I start to kind of gauge as to where I can push and where I can't push.

Vemir [01:39:46]:
So the subtle differences come after the.

Eldar [01:39:49]:
Relationship, of course, there's trust that needs to be built. I told you my most important thing is the unconditional positive regard.

Eldar [01:39:55]:
You need to set the stage, you.

Eldar [01:39:57]:
Need to stay the stage for a therapeutic relationship. Without that, the person does not open up properly and does not actually give you the truth. And the truth is where usually it's the ego or arrogance that we're fighting.

Eldar [01:40:09]:
Against, and when we can free those.

Eldar [01:40:11]:
Individuals from that stuff, that's when you can see flourishing and you see change of behavior.

Vemir [01:40:16]:
So what are some things like now.

Eldar [01:40:18]:
If the person fundamentally disagrees with my understanding about the world, then they fundamentally disagree at the world. And this is where I say, hey, do your thing.

Vemir [01:40:26]:
Too much, do your thing.

Eldar [01:40:28]:
That's it.

Eldar [01:40:29]:
And I'll do my thing, that they.

Anatoliy [01:40:30]:
Fundamentally disagree with how you view the world. I think that they can't get past questions phase to begin with.

Eldar [01:40:36]:
Maybe that, too.

Eldar [01:40:36]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [01:40:38]:
Again, the questioning alone requires a certain killing of a particular ego and a very particular level of anger to be released.

Eldar [01:40:49]:
And a lot of people, okay.

Anatoliy [01:40:52]:
Have a hard time with that.

Eldar [01:40:53]:
So now I think that's fair.

Vemir [01:41:00]:
What kind of fine tuning do you.

Eldar [01:41:01]:
Do when you have a trust with somebody? Like, for example, a new guest comes into.

Eldar [01:41:06]:
Okay, so I'll tell you about Mike.

Vemir [01:41:07]:
What's the difference between you working it out with the person and working out with Mike? The fine tune things that Mike used?

Eldar [01:41:13]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:41:14]:
No, I'll tell you what I do with Mike. For example, fine tuning. That the fine tuning comes from long periods of rapport after which the individual becomes competent enough to be able to, you know, I'm doing this, I'm doing better. I need more challenge. And then my fine tune comes in and like, okay, cool. They requested something now, and it seems like it's valid. This is what they need. And we've talked about the intricacies, details as to why they need it.

Eldar [01:41:36]:
And I agree with it. They agree with it, then I give.

Vemir [01:41:39]:
It, then I become different that way.

Eldar [01:41:40]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:41:41]:
So then, now, for example, I'm challenging Mike a lot more. I'm leaning more towards what toli usually does. He rams them a little bit harder. Right. To build thicker skin, to get there faster versus before which I evaluated, thought that Mike was more sensitive, I would cuddle him a little bit more.

Vemir [01:41:58]:
Okay, so the fine tuning that I was talking about, you do once you've.

Eldar [01:42:02]:
Established this, how can you not?

Eldar [01:42:05]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:42:05]:
First you need to establish that without that.

Anatoliy [01:42:07]:
But most people are not going to go past the questioning phase.

Eldar [01:42:10]:
Right.

Eldar [01:42:11]:
Most people fold.

Vemir [01:42:12]:
And this is what I'm frustrating. I'm just kind of sharing. There's been a lot of frustration in that beginning part. And I learned how to try to navigate different ways to get towards the.

Eldar [01:42:26]:
Level that we want to get at. So it's interesting to me.

Vemir [01:42:29]:
I'm sure there's many other ways to get there.

Eldar [01:42:33]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:42:33]:
Like I said, I think that as long as you truly care about that, what you're doing and that what you're asking, you genuinely curious about it, I think that individual understands that you have the best interest at heart. Therefore, they start opening up truly about it. Now, with my wife, a couple of years ago, when we sat down and we had conversation about certain things that she had issues with, I myself disqualified myself from being able to give her advice because of the fact that there.

Eldar [01:42:59]:
Is conflict of interest.

Eldar [01:43:02]:
She's my wife, you know what I'm saying? And there's also that my approach is a little bit too strong to the sensitive level that she's at.

Vemir [01:43:10]:
Interesting.

Eldar [01:43:10]:
So I said, hey, look, what I.

Eldar [01:43:13]:
Know is going to be good for you is an individual, like a therapist, who's going to walk you and hold.

Eldar [01:43:17]:
Your hand very nicely to the place that I'm asking you to go. Okay? Right.

Eldar [01:43:23]:
But along the way, they once in a while will hit you in the head. And that's what's happening right now.

Vemir [01:43:28]:
What do you mean she's getting hit.

Eldar [01:43:29]:
In the head by therapist.

Eldar [01:43:31]:
Okay.

Eldar [01:43:31]:
But first, therapist was holding her hand.

Katherine [01:43:33]:
She holds the hand. And now that she sees, you see that I've improved, that I've progressed and whatever, and I'm a bit stronger. She told me, she's like, I'm going to get a little harder on you.

Eldar [01:43:43]:
You understand? And this is at the end, what's happening. It's elderism now, right? Kicking in full gear. And now she's like, oh, shit. Yeah, oh, shit. Now we're going to really play. Are you about this life or not?

Eldar [01:43:55]:
Now I'm scared, you see? Okay. I scared. She prepped her though, you know what I mean?

Eldar [01:44:02]:
And I think that these types of conversations, she's understood me now a little bit better. A lot of times she came back and said, hey, you said the right stuff. And the therapist is asking, what is he saying? Because he's saying the right stuff. We're just not ready for his advice yet.

Eldar [01:44:14]:
I get it.

Eldar [01:44:17]:
We're going to cut to the chase or not.

Katherine [01:44:19]:
He moves a little. Ten x.

Eldar [01:44:22]:
Why? Because I'm hyper curious. I'm actually invested in you more than you are invested in yourself based on your development stage. Do you understand?

Vemir [01:44:31]:
I like what you said. You said you investigate more than they ever thought about it.

Eldar [01:44:35]:
Correct.

Vemir [01:44:36]:
This is a very interesting thing, is that people are stressed about their problems and then they avoid them automatically and you don't care. You can go as deep as you want. Why do you do that? What is the reason?

Eldar [01:44:48]:
Why do you do this?

Vemir [01:44:49]:
They're afraid of doing that depth. So your hyper curiosity is very valuable to unlock people's layers.

Anatoliy [01:44:57]:
I think more they're afraid of going past what they thought it would be because they know.

Eldar [01:45:04]:
But you guys also understand that they don't even understand that it's happening in the process, right? Because of the line of questioning and the way it's coming across in the first place, it is nice. It's like, oh, shit, they really care. They think that I really care. Of course you understand. They're under the impression that I really care. I do care. But I'm also understanding that I can only care up to a point, because you can't care as much as I care for you for yourself. So when I give you advice, it's going to fall on flat ears.

Eldar [01:45:32]:
It's going to ripen in three years.

Vemir [01:45:34]:
Flat ears. When it's now in their subconscious, in.

Eldar [01:45:38]:
Three years, it'll ripen. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with waiting for the long term, because then I know the benefits are going to be there, and everybody wins. But if in the moment, we have to sever our relationship and go our separate ways, I have no attachment to that.

Eldar [01:45:53]:
I think we're mostly on the same page.

Vemir [01:45:55]:
I think it's just like, sometimes I like really what my close friends do, or my father, for example, when my father comes to me with a question.

Eldar [01:46:05]:
We talk about things we're working through, he will just do it immediately after.

Vemir [01:46:11]:
I give the advice. Like, that's how fast we click. And if he corrects me on something.

Eldar [01:46:15]:
Immediately, it's corrected because of that, I.

Vemir [01:46:18]:
Think, level of trust. But also, we know how to deliver.

Eldar [01:46:21]:
It to each other. Okay.

Eldar [01:46:24]:
I mean, there's more power to you.

Vemir [01:46:25]:
Guys then, but do you think there's something I could change to make it?

Eldar [01:46:29]:
It's only up to a point. I have seen this, too, and I was also fascinated by that same thing, but up to a point.

Eldar [01:46:36]:
Right.

Eldar [01:46:36]:
Philip, for example, was a very good example when he first came in, and he was like, hey, I'm curious. I'm curious. And I was giving it to him, and he was turning it around real quick, real quick, real quick.

Vemir [01:46:45]:
The turnaround thing.

Eldar [01:46:46]:
Right?

Eldar [01:46:46]:
And then I was like, wow, this is pretty good. I've never seen this before. So much courage, so much action, so much doing. And now you can see that he burnt out. That's too much, because I could keep going, but those actions can't follow anymore. The person just burns out.

Tommy [01:47:03]:
Phil definitely seems more self aware to me. He seems more. Less anxious.

Eldar [01:47:09]:
Where are you standing at?

Tommy [01:47:10]:
Less nervous, Tom, you can't. There's something about him to me that just, like, he feels more comfortable around.

Eldar [01:47:19]:
Okay, good, Tom.

Eldar [01:47:20]:
Good.

Eldar [01:47:21]:
From wherever you stand.

Tommy [01:47:22]:
Yes, I see that. But, hey, the point that I'm thinking related to burning out, sometimes we might feel like, I don't know. I've literally felt the way, Mike expressed to you that he felt recently, and in a way, I was comfortable knowing. I was comfortable knowing that I was in this state of mind where nothing feels like it's right. And I can name a number of things that haven't gone right, but I can also name a number of things that have gone right and know that I still feel this way. I still want more, and I still want to kind of expand.

Eldar [01:48:01]:
My.

Eldar [01:48:05]:
Never ending thirst for more is probably also an indicator that you're not.

Eldar [01:48:10]:
Doing the right stuff.

Tommy [01:48:11]:
It's not a never ending thirst for more.

Eldar [01:48:13]:
Okay.

Katherine [01:48:15]:
That shows lack of contentment to me. Right.

Tommy [01:48:18]:
It's hard for me to describe. It's suffering. It's kind of suffering knowing that.

Eldar [01:48:25]:
The.

Tommy [01:48:25]:
Things that you dream about doing or the things you might be aspiring to be doing, they're not even coming to mind at this time. You're just kind of absent minded, and you feel like you're nobody. Kind of like that. That's kind of how I felt the other day. And I was just, like, thinking about this, and I was writing and I was thinking about it, and I was just saying, like, this is a good thing that I'm acknowledging that I've done a whole bunch of stuff recently and that I'm basically giving 100%, and I have no other thing that I can confess that all this is everything that I've been doing. So basically, I've given it my all.

Eldar [01:49:09]:
So I feel like that, to me, just speaks.

Tommy [01:49:15]:
Okay, you've done good. It says that to me. And if I can just accept that and live in this present moment.

Eldar [01:49:24]:
I.

Tommy [01:49:25]:
Feel like that's something I can enjoy.

Eldar [01:49:27]:
Okay.

Tommy [01:49:28]:
I can enjoy that. Why? Because I've given myself a pretty damn good reason to feel good that I've done everything that I can do, even.

Eldar [01:49:36]:
Though you did absolutely nothing up till now.

Tommy [01:49:39]:
I mean, look, for everyone, it might be different, but I don't know. It's just the journey, and the journey that I am taking can lead to almost anything. If I could just feel for this present moment, like, things are pretty level. I don't know. Like I said, I see it in Phil. Maybe you don't agree, but maybe that's, like, the looking glass. I can see within him something that.

Vemir [01:50:09]:
I feel within my.

Eldar [01:50:10]:
You have no idea what you're looking at, Elder.

Eldar [01:50:13]:
Your perception of it and your judgment is completely wrong.

Tommy [01:50:16]:
We both have two completely different sides on how.

Eldar [01:50:19]:
You have no idea what you said.

Tommy [01:50:20]:
He'S burnt out, right?

Eldar [01:50:22]:
You have no idea what's going on.

Tommy [01:50:23]:
You said he's burnt out pinch.

Vemir [01:50:25]:
I'm watching the office right now, and.

Tommy [01:50:27]:
Maybe I could see it.

Eldar [01:50:28]:
Maybe that's what I could see.

Tommy [01:50:30]:
But what I see in him is not a person who is completely like.

Eldar [01:50:34]:
A sad where you're standing.

Tommy [01:50:35]:
He was here, and he was helping.

Eldar [01:50:37]:
Out plenty of people who get pushing that couch, and he was doing this grenade as Tom. Like I said, tom, until you understand an actual individual, you spend time with them. You really understand the intricacies, what they're dealing with, what they're going through, how they're going through it.

Eldar [01:50:57]:
Right.

Eldar [01:50:57]:
Coming in one time and kind of like Vermeer, right? Came in a couple of times here and saw Eldar take real hard jabs at individuals that he has 1015 years relationship with. You make certain type of judgments that are from where you're standing. This is where you're doing the same thing. You're just standing from that place, seeing Philip for who he's not. This is just a shell that he's presenting unto the world inside.

Tommy [01:51:21]:
No, I disagree.

Eldar [01:51:22]:
Okay.

Tommy [01:51:23]:
I disagree.

Eldar [01:51:23]:
Okay. I disagree.

Tommy [01:51:27]:
Around him for so long that you don't even see the progress.

Eldar [01:51:30]:
You have the right to be wrong, and that's. Okay.

Tommy [01:51:34]:
Well, hold on. Hold on.

Vemir [01:51:35]:
Goodness.

Tommy [01:51:36]:
Goodness does require being considerate.

Vemir [01:51:39]:
No, Aldar has such a good.

Eldar [01:51:40]:
Totally. He has the right to be wrong.

Anatoliy [01:51:42]:
Yes, 100%.

Eldar [01:51:43]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:51:44]:
You got a question?

Eldar [01:51:46]:
Yes. Okay.

Vemir [01:51:47]:
So the question is this. This is actually relevant to me personally. What is the difference between having boundaries in, let's just say, boundaries and being offended to where it's like an ego thing. For example, I think comedy is an open plane of existence. But, for example, my friend kind of has, like, a tick. Like, he makes fun of everybody's moms.

Eldar [01:52:15]:
Right?

Vemir [01:52:16]:
Like, your mom within it.

Eldar [01:52:17]:
Was that.

Eldar [01:52:18]:
Or he just blurs out, like, blurts out.

Vemir [01:52:20]:
And he just. About his harps moms in general, he just harps on things that he knows will trigger them to be offensive.

Eldar [01:52:27]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:52:27]:
And the thing is, I would respect that. And he wants to be free and kind of like, you can say anything and it's a joke, but he also gets offended by things a little bit. So that's an interesting thing. But the important thread, I want to, again, thread.

Eldar [01:52:41]:
I'm saying this a lot, but it's.

Vemir [01:52:43]:
Like, if I say, yeah, I don't want jokes about my mom, I don't find it funny. It's not comfortable for me. That feels like it's setting a healthy boundary, but you don't want to feel like there's a subject that you will feel like.

Tommy [01:52:59]:
So you want to ring his neck, basically.

Eldar [01:53:01]:
No, he's not going to say it all out.

Vemir [01:53:04]:
You want to be free and you're motherfucker comedy. You don't really want to be offended by anything, but respectful in a way.

Eldar [01:53:12]:
For example, what is your question?

Vemir [01:53:14]:
My question is, what is the difference there? I mean, would you say that very.

Tommy [01:53:19]:
Are you still trying to crack that egg? Yeah, trying to get him to come over to the Vermeer side. What I'm trying to say is he's trying to pause himself response.

Vemir [01:53:32]:
I'm just pausing to think. Maybe he can guide him to Tom.

Eldar [01:53:39]:
We'll get there. Make him give him a second to birth this thing.

Vemir [01:53:42]:
Just simply. Do you think when you set those boundaries, are you setting it out of weakness or out of self respect?

Eldar [01:53:54]:
There's no boundaries that need to be set. Okay, it might be. Give me a definition of a tick.

Vemir [01:54:01]:
Not a tick.

Eldar [01:54:02]:
I'm saying, wait a second.

Vemir [01:54:03]:
The guy knows something will upset a friend.

Eldar [01:54:06]:
You said it's a tick.

Vemir [01:54:08]:
It feels like a tick.

Tommy [01:54:09]:
Where I have a crazy answer for this.

Vemir [01:54:11]:
Like he has.

Anatoliy [01:54:11]:
I'm waiting here a lot.

Vemir [01:54:12]:
It's going to offend. He has to say it.

Eldar [01:54:14]:
He has to say it.

Eldar [01:54:15]:
Why?

Vemir [01:54:16]:
Because he wants to break your.

Eldar [01:54:19]:
Can he control or not control it?

Vemir [01:54:21]:
Barely.

Eldar [01:54:23]:
But it's not about him. It's about. No, no. That's what I'm trying to get to. I'm trying to get to vamir perceiving it in such a way where it's.

Eldar [01:54:30]:
Like he doesn't have the self control.

Eldar [01:54:32]:
If he doesn't have the self control, what are we talking about? We're talking about illness. Why can't you see what it is?

Tommy [01:54:37]:
I don't think Vimir is trying to unpack this guy. He's just trying to get him out of his life, which is.

Vemir [01:54:41]:
No, I'm not pretty.

Eldar [01:54:45]:
Funny. Yeah.

Tommy [01:54:45]:
But Vermeer, you said something that's really interesting. You said, that makes me angry.

Eldar [01:54:50]:
Well, okay.

Vemir [01:54:51]:
It gets him a little that otherwise a reasonable person.

Eldar [01:54:55]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:54:56]:
So it's like, how do you fucking mean, Mike?

Eldar [01:54:59]:
What does that fucking mean?

Vemir [01:55:05]:
Someone that you're close with.

Eldar [01:55:06]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:55:07]:
Breaking a boundary.

Eldar [01:55:08]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:55:08]:
Who's individual, who's clearly breaking a boundary, usually can't control himself, but usually he's reasonable, but this thing he can't control.

Vemir [01:55:16]:
Yeah, it's kind of murky.

Eldar [01:55:18]:
It's a murky here.

Vemir [01:55:19]:
Okay, so let's give an example. Someone who you're close with is constantly disrespecting a boundary.

Eldar [01:55:26]:
Give me an example of a boundary.

Vemir [01:55:27]:
Making fun of your mom.

Tommy [01:55:29]:
Yeah, your mama eats a lot of Rico.

Eldar [01:55:31]:
What is he saying about your mom that is ticking you off? Like, I don't understand.

Vemir [01:55:37]:
I think it's based on the way I view my mom.

Eldar [01:55:39]:
Okay, so there you go. Yeah. I would like to find out where's the attachment that's drawing a certain reaction?

Vemir [01:55:47]:
The attachment is kind of like this. I feel like if he.

Eldar [01:55:50]:
Is that a funny joke?

Vemir [01:55:52]:
No, it's like cheap ones too. That's why it's not funny. Okay.

Eldar [01:55:58]:
Who'S writing with the jokes? Are you just in the room with one on one or there's more people around?

Vemir [01:56:03]:
The thing I'm afraid of is when there's people around. He doesn't do it when there's people around. That's what I'm afraid of too. Wait, what about this? I think if I don't cut it here, he's going to do it in a context that's not appropriate.

Eldar [01:56:17]:
He does these jokes in front of just you.

Eldar [01:56:19]:
One on one? Yeah.

Anatoliy [01:56:21]:
Can you give an example?

Eldar [01:56:22]:
Can you give an example?

Tommy [01:56:23]:
I've got a new joke. Would you like to hear it?

Eldar [01:56:28]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:56:28]:
Can you give us one example of one that pissed you off a little bit?

Eldar [01:56:33]:
No.

Vemir [01:56:33]:
It's kind of like when you say.

Eldar [01:56:38]:
It'S dumb, though. Say it.

Vemir [01:56:41]:
I'm going inside. Oh, like I'm going inside of your mom. Stuff like that. Always like that. It's always like a hyper trigger.

Eldar [01:56:52]:
Number one is it sounds like he's a sick individual.

Vemir [01:56:56]:
He's actually ill. No, he's not. We're very curious and funnily exploring comedy all the time just for some reason in that one subject, for me, it bothers me.

Eldar [01:57:09]:
I don't understand this dynamic at all. I cannot give any kind of advice here where you one on one with an individual, you're not laughing. He's an attempting a joke and continues to attempt these jokes.

Eldar [01:57:25]:
For what purpose?

Eldar [01:57:27]:
To make someone laugh. And you're not laughing off.

Anatoliy [01:57:31]:
What I was feeling is that he laughs him off.

Vemir [01:57:33]:
No, I push back and then he finds.

Anatoliy [01:57:37]:
How do you push back?

Eldar [01:57:39]:
Like, different ways.

Vemir [01:57:43]:
One example, I mean, one example is I take all the air out of the room in the conversation. No, I mean, I yell in a funny way.

Tommy [01:57:55]:
You respond with silence. Is that what you mean?

Vemir [01:57:57]:
I take it with, without levity, whereas the rest of the conversation is very.

Anatoliy [01:58:04]:
Can you just give an example of.

Eldar [01:58:06]:
Yeah, we don't understand what you're saying.

Anatoliy [01:58:08]:
You're going in circles right now.

Eldar [01:58:09]:
Okay.

Vemir [01:58:09]:
I tell him I feel uncomfortable when you say, this is not funny. You have any way to not talk?

Eldar [01:58:17]:
You know what I mean?

Vemir [01:58:18]:
And then he kind of laughs it off.

Tommy [01:58:20]:
Can you shut your mouth?

Eldar [01:58:23]:
That's a good one.

Vemir [01:58:24]:
Maybe this is like not a good boring of a question.

Eldar [01:58:28]:
It's not boring. I think it's a very good question. But this little scenario that you presented is very difficult to understand.

Vemir [01:58:35]:
For me too. He apologized before. He's like, I feel like, sorry.

Eldar [01:58:39]:
He's constantly doing this. There's no respect of boundary. But who's laughing here?

Vemir [01:58:45]:
I have a good example for this that I have.

Anatoliy [01:58:47]:
You're not telling us everything about what's happening or this person.

Vemir [01:58:51]:
There's no way. I have told you everything about what's happening. It's been 40 minutes. Four minutes. I've only told you so there's no way I could tell you everything.

Eldar [01:58:57]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [01:58:57]:
My only assessment now is that he has severe Tourette's.

Vemir [01:59:00]:
No, here's an example for me. When I'm at a funeral, my defense.

Eldar [01:59:07]:
Mechanism is to make jokes all the time.

Vemir [01:59:10]:
Now, it's not really that offensive because I know when and where to do it. But it's a way for me to keep levity about things like funerals.

Eldar [01:59:16]:
I've never had a very heavy feeling.

Vemir [01:59:18]:
For me, it's a part of life. Even someone close to me, it's just.

Eldar [01:59:21]:
Like the most obvious thing.

Vemir [01:59:23]:
But to other people, they get offended. So when I'm at a funeral or something serious, I make a lot of jokes and I try to keep it humorous. And you never really see me crying at a funeral, for example.

Eldar [01:59:35]:
Okay. So to other people, they might get.

Vemir [01:59:38]:
Offended by that or whatever else. But with this scenario, he's saying it's a problem. He recognizes that it bothers people and he's trying to do it less, but he still continues to do it. So it just makes me feel like he's lying about it or something. Like I'm trying to figure out what the mechanism is here, why he's doing.

Eldar [01:59:58]:
Can you help him with this?

Anatoliy [02:00:00]:
I mean, I just really don't understand what's going on.

Vemir [02:00:02]:
It would push someone away. I'm very patient with him because he's a gorgeous person.

Tommy [02:00:06]:
What you're saying is you find that your friend doesn't really say, this is a bad.

Eldar [02:00:10]:
He's a gorgeous person.

Vemir [02:00:11]:
He's an amazing person. Otherwise brilliant, unique.

Eldar [02:00:14]:
He's a good looking bastard. Yes.

Vemir [02:00:17]:
I feel like he just feels like he needs to.

Eldar [02:00:22]:
Do you not think this is a very strange dynamic.

Vemir [02:00:25]:
It's a unique dynamic, but it's not.

Eldar [02:00:27]:
You know what?

Tommy [02:00:28]:
I think I used to be a prick back in the day. Based on what you told me, I was like a woman.

Eldar [02:00:32]:
If you're a prick, you don't fit in. You get the boot.

Tommy [02:00:35]:
Stupid shit.

Eldar [02:00:35]:
Like, you get the boot.

Tommy [02:00:37]:
Which I did. Did I not fucking?

Eldar [02:00:38]:
Yeah, but I'm saying, like, a fair.

Tommy [02:00:41]:
Loan with no friends.

Eldar [02:00:42]:
Why is there attachment here? And why is this Dynamic is happening in the first place? If there's something that's.

Tommy [02:00:46]:
Well, in a way, maybe he's just roaming around with the people who he's chosen that he doesn't really need around him.

Vemir [02:00:53]:
No, I really agree with everything you're saying. When it comes to this person, it's like, otherwise a very good relationship. I think maybe there's up until he.

Eldar [02:01:03]:
Starts talking about entering your mom.

Vemir [02:01:05]:
Yeah, that's where it bothers me.

Eldar [02:01:08]:
How does that come about?

Vemir [02:01:09]:
And I ask him about it, and he says that on one.

Eldar [02:01:12]:
On one.

Anatoliy [02:01:13]:
How old is he?

Vemir [02:01:14]:
He's my age. And he's saying, like, what's it called?

Tommy [02:01:19]:
I would want to dig deep. Did he go to college?

Eldar [02:01:24]:
I'll give you $100 for this footage.

Vemir [02:01:29]:
And to move the couch. That's a whole $600. The idea being that he wants to feel completely free, like no subject is off limits.

Eldar [02:01:38]:
And that's like a closeness thing, I guess. You know what I mean, that we.

Vemir [02:01:43]:
Could say anything and we're not going to get offended. I guess that's where he's coming from. But I don't feel like misery loves. I don't feel like that's healthy. Because you can be in a scenario where that spills over when you don't want it to.

Tommy [02:01:53]:
I have a craft.

Eldar [02:01:54]:
Why are you not okay with him.

Eldar [02:01:55]:
Getting punched in the face?

Vemir [02:01:57]:
He actually encourages physical contact to resolve things.

Eldar [02:02:02]:
That's what I'm saying.

Eldar [02:02:03]:
Yeah. You're not okay with it, but maybe he needs to go into public place.

Vemir [02:02:07]:
I'm sure someone would.

Eldar [02:02:08]:
And I'm pretty sure that individual keeps getting punched in the face sooner or later.

Eldar [02:02:12]:
Like, wait a second.

Eldar [02:02:13]:
I don't like the hobby.

Vemir [02:02:14]:
You're saying I should slap him every.

Eldar [02:02:16]:
Time he says it?

Eldar [02:02:16]:
Well, no, I'm not encouraging you to do that.

Vemir [02:02:18]:
Why not? It might be a solution if you get his permission.

Eldar [02:02:21]:
All right, then you should do it.

Vemir [02:02:23]:
I told him we're going to do greco roman wrestling. Every time you talk about my mom. Well, I'll just throw sand in a pit so we can fight about it, but I'm trying to find a way to get.

Eldar [02:02:32]:
I mean, I can't control him.

Vemir [02:02:34]:
He could be a troll.

Anatoliy [02:02:34]:
Something is off completely here. Like, we're talking about a beautiful person, like, otherwise. But then he has this thing with the mom, and then also the same individual who's this beautiful person encourages.

Tommy [02:02:47]:
I see what's going on here.

Anatoliy [02:02:48]:
Settle things.

Mike [02:02:49]:
Is he armenian?

Tommy [02:02:50]:
And I think we've all. We've all suffered with this. In one way or another, we've all suffered with this. We've all tried to bring elderism out.

Eldar [02:02:58]:
Into the world, but in order to.

Tommy [02:03:01]:
Do that, you have to love yourself.

Eldar [02:03:03]:
But he's talking about a very basic, kind of, like, a boundary where friends. If I'm a friend of yours and we have a dear relationship, and you clearly see that every time I make this joke. Would you like some face brown? Yes, absolutely. I would love some tea.

Tommy [02:03:17]:
And by the way, I entered your mom last night.

Eldar [02:03:19]:
Yeah.

Tommy [02:03:20]:
And then it's like, I can't enjoy this tea with you talking that after.

Eldar [02:03:24]:
A while, you're going to be like, okay, cool. I'm not getting receptiveness here. Why am I still doing this? This tells me you're retarded.

Eldar [02:03:30]:
Insane.

Mike [02:03:31]:
He's doing it because Ramir is still responding to it.

Eldar [02:03:33]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [02:03:33]:
No, I was saying the beginning.

Eldar [02:03:35]:
Something gets out of Amir still correct.

Vemir [02:03:37]:
But I don't want to not respond. I want to respond. Why?

Eldar [02:03:41]:
Okay.

Tommy [02:03:42]:
That's the question.

Eldar [02:03:43]:
Why? Yeah.

Anatoliy [02:03:44]:
I think that he's receptive to his jokes, and he more laughs them off, is my.

Mike [02:03:48]:
Well, I don't know if he laughs, but he.

Eldar [02:03:49]:
So where's the boundary? Where's your boundary? Where did it come about? When did you present it? How did you present it? Where's the boundary?

Eldar [02:03:55]:
Okay.

Eldar [02:03:56]:
Did you ever sit down and say, hey, bro? Actually, yes. Okay, so, how is he, your dear.

Tommy [02:04:02]:
Friend, in a relationship?

Vemir [02:04:04]:
You want an answer, or you want a rhetorical.

Eldar [02:04:06]:
Okay.

Vemir [02:04:07]:
You want an answer?

Eldar [02:04:07]:
Okay. Thing is.

Vemir [02:04:11]:
Like, he's a perfect example of someone who has, like, a cognitive dissonance, who's someone who has multiple dimensions of his personality, right? Like, if he's in a good mood, he can be extremely creative, sweet, and interesting. If he's in a bad mood, it can become toxic.

Eldar [02:04:33]:
Right.

Vemir [02:04:33]:
If you attack him, maybe he'll lash.

Eldar [02:04:35]:
Out verbally or something. Right.

Eldar [02:04:37]:
Or he'll, you know, is he suffering from, like, autism or something?

Eldar [02:04:41]:
Maybe.

Vemir [02:04:41]:
Like, okay, I think he's brilliant. So there's a lot of things on the edge there. He's clearly brilliant. So there's a little bit of compensatory things, and I think he's not like a basket case.

Eldar [02:04:57]:
He's just a different person.

Vemir [02:05:00]:
So what I'm saying is, do I give him a pass? I just don't want to view him that way. To say that he needs.

Eldar [02:05:09]:
Why can't you view him as just like, okay, cool. He has a no self control. This is probably mental illness.

Vemir [02:05:13]:
That's what it is. He does have a social thing, but I feel like it can bleed over into my life that people think, oh, this guy can openly disrespect me, then I can do it, too.

Eldar [02:05:25]:
For example, another friend watching this happen.

Tommy [02:05:29]:
Do you understand why that happens? It's the fact that anger leads to those kinds of thoughts. Anger kind of eventually becomes, he's not angry when stuff.

Vemir [02:05:41]:
He's not angry when he says these.

Tommy [02:05:43]:
Jokes for you, specifically for you.

Mike [02:05:49]:
No, I just don't.

Vemir [02:05:51]:
When someone speaks about something impact the.

Eldar [02:05:53]:
Way that you see.

Tommy [02:05:55]:
That's what's interesting.

Vemir [02:05:56]:
I don't know why, I'm just naturally.

Eldar [02:05:58]:
But it just sounds very weird. Conversation or joke to say.

Anatoliy [02:06:02]:
Yeah, it doesn't sound like just the dynamic.

Eldar [02:06:05]:
It is dynamic.

Vemir [02:06:06]:
That's why I brought it up. I can usually solve this stuff. I just feel like this is a confusing one.

Eldar [02:06:10]:
Well, the confusing one, because I think you're actually working with an individual who can't control himself.

Eldar [02:06:14]:
So what do I do?

Eldar [02:06:15]:
I mean, you see it for what it is. You're not going to yell at a person who's handicapped and rolled on you.

Eldar [02:06:20]:
Right?

Vemir [02:06:20]:
But what do I do when I.

Eldar [02:06:23]:
Say, this is someone who's a very.

Vemir [02:06:26]:
Dear, close friend to me as I just described? And then maybe we're in a scenario.

Eldar [02:06:30]:
Where he's saying stuff that another friend's.

Vemir [02:06:33]:
Like, why do you allow him to say that?

Eldar [02:06:35]:
And you explain, you take the time. Hey, would you like to really find out?

Vemir [02:06:39]:
And then are you really curious?

Eldar [02:06:40]:
And then you'll have a very long discussion about why you came to that conclusion.

Eldar [02:06:44]:
Okay.

Eldar [02:06:45]:
And then hopefully that individual will understand, like, oh, the reason why you accepted that is because he's mentally ill, he can't really control himself, and therefore I don't want to ruin my other relationship with him.

Vemir [02:06:54]:
I accept it for what it is. Maybe also might hear this conversation and say, well, I don't want to be labeled as mentally ill.

Eldar [02:07:01]:
Okay, then maybe I'll change up my.

Anatoliy [02:07:03]:
Behavior if he's acting mentally ill.

Eldar [02:07:08]:
I'll rule you out, bro.

Eldar [02:07:10]:
You know what I mean?

Eldar [02:07:12]:
I personally if you're associating yourself with some individual who is actually doing that kind of shit, sooner or later the gig is up.

Vemir [02:07:22]:
I love this person. It's a great person.

Anatoliy [02:07:25]:
You're talking about an example of like, yo, this guy.

Vemir [02:07:28]:
It's not that simple, though.

Anatoliy [02:07:29]:
Is like a great philosopher. He's just such a good person. And just time to time, he just feels a need to go kill a random person.

Vemir [02:07:39]:
I think that's like a seinfeld version.

Eldar [02:07:41]:
Of what I'm saying.

Anatoliy [02:07:42]:
Right, but that's basically what you're saying here too.

Eldar [02:07:45]:
And I'm okay with it. Something's up.

Vemir [02:07:51]:
It's like if your dear father who came here, he started using heroin, you don't throw out the basket, right? You deal with some issue.

Tommy [02:07:58]:
Actually, I would say, yeah, sometimes you have to actually not think about what other people will think and just kind.

Eldar [02:08:06]:
Of, you do what's right. No matter what's right, you do what's right.

Eldar [02:08:11]:
Yeah.

Anatoliy [02:08:12]:
And a wise man once said, you.

Eldar [02:08:13]:
Don'T see it for what it is.

Vemir [02:08:16]:
Okay, so I accept him. How do I prevent, what, some unexpected.

Eldar [02:08:21]:
Thing that might happen one day?

Vemir [02:08:22]:
No, I'm saying yes. I think putting it in the context for me will allow me to never take it personally.

Eldar [02:08:33]:
Never take it personally.

Vemir [02:08:34]:
And whenever he says that stuff and I don't have a reaction, people won't think that I'm disrespectful to my mother. I'm just kind of being patient with him.

Eldar [02:08:43]:
Well, of course you're showing him compassion.

Anatoliy [02:08:44]:
He's a sick individual.

Vemir [02:08:46]:
No, I mean, you're labeling.

Tommy [02:08:47]:
That's not necessarily true. That's also kind of a mistake. What I think what's true is that he remains his friend.

Eldar [02:08:56]:
You're a sick individual.

Eldar [02:08:57]:
We remain friends with mentally ill. Well.

Tommy [02:09:00]:
No, I mean, you could see maybe Vermeer is a little bit more mentally ill. Just thinking about how he's talking about this now, but still in the relationship with the friend.

Anatoliy [02:09:08]:
But the friend is mentally ill. No, but not necessarily.

Tommy [02:09:12]:
We can't say that. For sure.

Vemir [02:09:13]:
We can.

Eldar [02:09:14]:
What's wrong with that?

Tommy [02:09:15]:
Elder just finished saying, how could I comment on Phil if I haven't spent enough time around it?

Anatoliy [02:09:20]:
Elder just agreed, and we're hearing hearsay.

Vemir [02:09:23]:
Also, the third party context.

Anatoliy [02:09:24]:
You can't always turn on the lights.

Vemir [02:09:25]:
You know the person.

Eldar [02:09:26]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:09:27]:
So I'm coming from where you, based on the things you laid out. Well, I've never met the person, but this, I think if you serve 100 people, based on what you said, this shit is strange.

Vemir [02:09:36]:
Well, this strange clearly.

Tommy [02:09:38]:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this.

Eldar [02:09:40]:
Friend sounds a little aggressive, a little.

Tommy [02:09:42]:
Tough, maybe a little gym rat kind of guy.

Anatoliy [02:09:45]:
He sounds like he beef a little bit of autism.

Eldar [02:09:47]:
Yeah, definitely do your mom for sure. He doesn't have the social cues.

Eldar [02:09:52]:
Social cues?

Vemir [02:09:53]:
Yeah, that's right.

Eldar [02:09:54]:
And if you're okay still with fucking with him. Listen, you got to roll with the punch.

Vemir [02:09:58]:
I am.

Eldar [02:09:59]:
There are all kinds of people, and I think you're doing the right thing by him. Probably. But to subject him to the same social cues that we subject ourselves with might be unfair a little bit.

Anatoliy [02:10:08]:
You can't get mad at an untrained dog for pissing on the floor.

Eldar [02:10:11]:
Oh, shit. But I can't.

Vemir [02:10:13]:
That sounds wise, but that's not relevant.

Eldar [02:10:15]:
Catherine constantly using. Hey, she's still a little baby. She's just a little girl.

Vemir [02:10:22]:
You're saying I can't train him? That's what you're saying.

Eldar [02:10:24]:
Oh, well, it sounds like he's an old dog that. Yes, he's going to have a hard time learning new tricks.

Tommy [02:10:28]:
Vamir, I have to ask you a question. Have you ever heard the term, have any of you ever heard of the term crazy maker?

Katherine [02:10:35]:
Are you referring to Penny?

Anatoliy [02:10:37]:
No, but I did hear that nicotine plus caffeine equals.

Tommy [02:10:43]:
Maybe we should try to talk about it.

Vemir [02:10:45]:
I heard that maybe we should talk.

Eldar [02:10:47]:
About it one day time.

Tommy [02:10:49]:
Crazy makers. I mean, look, essentially, crazy makers create drama. And there are a few things they do. They, like, triangulate people. They kind of turn people against each other, basically to bring the attention to themselves and be like the know.

Eldar [02:11:03]:
Listen, you know what? I'm going to channel and I'm going to remind you of a story of how Mr. Johnson used to deal with the shit. I don't know if you remember this.

Eldar [02:11:11]:
All right.

Eldar [02:11:11]:
Mr. Johnson was my youth coach when.

Eldar [02:11:14]:
I was part of youth partnership. Okay.

Tommy [02:11:16]:
I've heard briefly about.

Eldar [02:11:18]:
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Eldar [02:11:20]:
And obviously in the youth program, we had some kids that had autism, kids that had bipolar, that were heavily sedated on medication, all this other stuff.

Eldar [02:11:29]:
Right?

Eldar [02:11:30]:
And Mr. Johnson also, he was strong. He was a strong guy. Strong male, let's just say father figure or whatever you want to call it. And the time when some of the autistic kids acted out a certain type of way, even the non verbal ones, right, were doing certain things. He looked him in the eyes and say, yo, stop that right now. I pull him to the side one time.

Eldar [02:11:52]:
I'm like, you sure he understands what.

Eldar [02:11:53]:
You'Re saying, he goes, he knows exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't mean that he knows exactly what he's saying. Maybe out of a speech.

Eldar [02:12:01]:
Right.

Eldar [02:12:01]:
Or whatever. He feels what I want from him to do.

Eldar [02:12:05]:
Shut the fuck up right now.

Eldar [02:12:08]:
You understand?

Eldar [02:12:09]:
Yeah. And that he transmits through his aura.

Eldar [02:12:14]:
Through his feeling, through his strength.

Eldar [02:12:15]:
You know what I mean?

Eldar [02:12:16]:
And that individual exactly understands what the fuck is going.

Vemir [02:12:19]:
Energy.

Eldar [02:12:21]:
You can't play this fucking game that.

Eldar [02:12:23]:
You don't get it.

Eldar [02:12:24]:
You can play that with everybody else, but not him. And to me, it was profound because I was like, this guy is like, you know, the chinidoos. You know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about, the nonverbal one. You know what I mean?

Anatoliy [02:12:38]:
But every time he got his sandwich, he knew he wanted that cover on it.

Eldar [02:12:41]:
He wanted the fucking cover. He knew exactly how to communicate that motherfucker to us.

Anatoliy [02:12:45]:
Eldar would make sandwiches, right? And this was like a nonverbalism or autistic.

Eldar [02:12:52]:
Nonverbal.

Eldar [02:12:53]:
Yeah. Right.

Anatoliy [02:12:53]:
Nonverbal. Eldar would get. We would drive to whole foods and get cold cuts, turkey, hams, whatever. Salamis, fresh bread, cheeses. Right. And then we would go back, and then we would make the sandwiches.

Eldar [02:13:06]:
Right.

Anatoliy [02:13:07]:
Mike would be very fond of these kind of moments, and so would I. And this one kid, he was pretty much non rebels, right. Eldar usually makes a sandwich to everybody with the top off because everyone kind of wants less bread, but more, like meat.

Eldar [02:13:26]:
Yeah.

Vemir [02:13:27]:
Open face sandwich.

Eldar [02:13:28]:
Right.

Anatoliy [02:13:29]:
So Aldar would know. Mike, me, Tommy, like, whoever, right.

Eldar [02:13:34]:
The sandwich.

Anatoliy [02:13:34]:
And it would just be like, bread.

Vemir [02:13:36]:
I get, and the rest, old cuts and cheese.

Eldar [02:13:38]:
Well, this is very important.

Eldar [02:13:40]:
Yeah. Be mindful, please.

Anatoliy [02:13:41]:
China dude would come up. Elder would hand him that, and then he would kind of correct him, and.

Eldar [02:13:46]:
He would just say, like, cover. Yeah.

Eldar [02:13:50]:
And I'm like, wait, what?

Eldar [02:13:51]:
And he goes, I want cover.

Eldar [02:13:53]:
And then somebody told me he wants an extra piece of bread. So I give him an extra piece of bread, and hence, I'm like, oh, shit.

Anatoliy [02:13:58]:
And he knew exactly what was going on.

Eldar [02:14:00]:
Here you are on talk, and then.

Eldar [02:14:02]:
All of a sudden, now you know.

Anatoliy [02:14:03]:
What you want, but you know exactly what you want. And he's saying this in front of everybody. Everybody's getting the non cover sandwich. Do you understand?

Eldar [02:14:12]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:14:12]:
Oh, wait.

Katherine [02:14:12]:
So it's so surprising because he had never spoken a word.

Eldar [02:14:15]:
Never spoken a word.

Anatoliy [02:14:16]:
Everyone's getting the non cover sandwich. And he would walk up to Elder.

Eldar [02:14:19]:
And he would be like, cover? Yeah.

Eldar [02:14:22]:
Make the COVID for me on top. And I'm like, oh, shit. And everybody fucking noticed. Everybody.

Katherine [02:14:26]:
And you didn't understand what he had.

Eldar [02:14:28]:
You know, what saying. So we. A lot of times we be under the impression that they don't get it, they don't understand or whatever. Mr. Johnson proved that they knew exactly what.

Vemir [02:14:36]:
I think this is very true.

Eldar [02:14:39]:
They're a lot more smarter than we think.

Vemir [02:14:41]:
They're more aware. They also don't show it.

Eldar [02:14:45]:
They hide it.

Vemir [02:14:47]:
You think they don't pick up on social cues? Maybe they can't express that they've recognized. There's the lack of mirroring.

Eldar [02:14:53]:
Right.

Vemir [02:14:53]:
Yeah, I probably have a light. What do they call little.

Eldar [02:15:00]:
Right, well, you need a little bit of elderism.

Vemir [02:15:05]:
Touch a tism or something like that. Touch a tism. But you're probably right getting offended by someone who isn't.

Tommy [02:15:17]:
I find that, first of all, interesting. When you said touch of autism, there's this book by Malcolm Gladwell.

Eldar [02:15:23]:
Let me think about that.

Tommy [02:15:24]:
I think it's called blink. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink. And I think in that book, he kind of claimed that some of us. Well, people in general, we judge within a fraction of a second and we enter into this kind of tunnel vision of kind of autism where we can't actually consider the full scope of, um. And it's one of the reasons why we're kind of faulty as.

Eldar [02:15:57]:
You introducing this book by the name of Dr. Blink and then not saying anything afterwards.

Anatoliy [02:16:01]:
No, but Tom, that guy you're talking about, he was the same guy that said that just because you have four stones, it doesn't mean that you own a.

Tommy [02:16:13]:
Mean.

Eldar [02:16:14]:
Tom, let's get back to this.

Eldar [02:16:16]:
Listen, hey, this is where we started, right?

Tommy [02:16:19]:
Where we kind of lock up and we can't believe this other person. What they just said or what they've just done.

Eldar [02:16:24]:
Fuck that. Fuck that. Don't give them a pass.

Tommy [02:16:28]:
But do you have the willpower, I guess you could say, to actually look so many eyes?

Eldar [02:16:36]:
Would you just.

Tommy [02:16:37]:
No, I love myself. I respect myself. So, because, well, vamir, I mean, are you surprised? You said you're kind of invested in just kind of discovering the methodology and just allowing that person to just be awakened to their own self when they're maybe just in that cape.

Eldar [02:16:52]:
Did you watch WWF back in the day or no?

Eldar [02:16:56]:
Yeah.

Tommy [02:16:56]:
Fucking.

Eldar [02:16:57]:
You know what?

Tommy [02:16:57]:
This is right in your eyes.

Eldar [02:16:58]:
This is Mr. Saco Mankind. You know, his final move was he was stuck this hold on in your mouth.

Tommy [02:17:09]:
Let me make a fucking parallel real quick.

Eldar [02:17:11]:
If you don't shut your fucking mouth. I'm going to get up.

Vemir [02:17:15]:
It was a dirty sock, by the way.

Eldar [02:17:17]:
It was a dirty sock every time he would take it off after wrestling. Yes, Mr. Saco, Mr. Sako was a thing.

Mike [02:17:24]:
That's a sick one.

Eldar [02:17:24]:
And he would shove it down in people's throats. And that was.

Tommy [02:17:27]:
Listen, I don't blame for the way they are. The way they are is the way they are. I'll draw a parallel real quick and I'll just say that one more word about how you and your father have a relationship where when you say something, it has an instant kind of effect, where this is not very present with your friend right here.

Vemir [02:17:47]:
My friend and I get a lot of.

Eldar [02:17:49]:
Why do you think that is?

Vemir [02:17:50]:
I'm not trying to over. Like, this is one thing. If that clicks into place, that will be good. And that might set precedent for other things. The reason why I say boundaries is.

Eldar [02:18:02]:
Because, for example, if you're a creative.

Vemir [02:18:07]:
Person, you might think of a good idea. And when you're in a bad mood, you might destroy yourself. So many different ways of self doubt. The reason why I say that is because if you have a brilliant person.

Anatoliy [02:18:19]:
You basically said that, not reload.

Eldar [02:18:21]:
Please don't use the word creative when you explain the topic.

Vemir [02:18:24]:
If you have a brilliant person working for your company, that's good. If you have a brilliant person working against you, it's bad. So what I'm saying is this guy is a very interesting person, but I want him to understand that I have my life in my context. Like, if he doesn't get social cues, he might become destructive. You don't want that. I don't think he would ever do that. He loves me very dearly. We're very deep, close friends.

Vemir [02:18:56]:
It's just that there's some of these things that he seems to be like might be parts of his insecurity. It's like stuff that's really deeply rooted. It's hard for him to get.

Eldar [02:19:08]:
Emotionally.

Eldar [02:19:10]:
Yeah, but it sounds like you're just not close enough in order to be able to make those shifts for.

Vemir [02:19:13]:
We are close. It's hard for him to change that stuff.

Eldar [02:19:18]:
Do you know what I'm saying? Okay. Yeah. No. You don't agree?

Eldar [02:19:23]:
No, I mean, okay, cool. It's hard.

Eldar [02:19:25]:
Okay, so what?

Vemir [02:19:27]:
So you're saying you think based on what I've said, the right way is.

Eldar [02:19:32]:
To put him in that context?

Eldar [02:19:35]:
You can't put him in that context or be empowered enough to be able to change yourself so the world around.

Eldar [02:19:39]:
You will change one or the other. What's the second one?

Vemir [02:19:43]:
Change yourself to change the world in relation to him.

Eldar [02:19:46]:
What does that mean?

Mike [02:19:47]:
Change the way you respond.

Eldar [02:19:48]:
He won't do it.

Tommy [02:19:49]:
Put your sock on your foot.

Vemir [02:19:51]:
I don't like that.

Eldar [02:19:53]:
I don't have to be able to.

Mike [02:19:55]:
Invest in the long game, but I.

Eldar [02:19:56]:
Don'T take that lightly.

Vemir [02:19:57]:
If someone speaks.

Eldar [02:19:59]:
Yeah, but whatever you're responding, what are you accomplishing?

Eldar [02:20:03]:
It's me.

Vemir [02:20:05]:
This is something that would be hard for me to change. Maybe I can do it.

Mike [02:20:09]:
So right now, you're doing absolutely nothing about it, and he keeps doing it.

Vemir [02:20:12]:
No, I'm not doing absolutely nothing. I'm pushing back a lot, and then it goes away.

Eldar [02:20:17]:
I would be curious how you push. Yeah, I would. See if we have more time, I would ask you more about what's the pushback and how you do it, and then I'll probably suggest certain things around that to see whether or not that's.

Anatoliy [02:20:28]:
Effective or not, what the relationship is like. Because again, I'm definitely one that doubts this kind of stuff, but it doesn't sound like what he's telling adds up to me, which leads me to believe that he's either acting a particular way, which is either encouraging or allowing this behavior and not realizing it, or he doesn't have the type of relationship that he thinks he has with this person.

Eldar [02:20:55]:
Right.

Vemir [02:20:55]:
Yeah, it sounds just like Philip when he talks.

Eldar [02:20:57]:
Sooner or later. I think sooner or later, that'll be uncovered if you dig deeper.

Vemir [02:21:01]:
I mean, it's possible.

Eldar [02:21:04]:
I think he's smirking every time he says it.

Anatoliy [02:21:07]:
I think he definitely laughs it off.

Eldar [02:21:09]:
Yeah, he giggles away at it.

Anatoliy [02:21:11]:
Or he did for a very long time.

Eldar [02:21:13]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:21:14]:
And ultimately, I think that in a relationship where if he's afraid at any point about something, I would question the.

Eldar [02:21:20]:
Relationship as a whole.

Vemir [02:21:22]:
I think it's just sensitive individuals. But you might be right.

Anatoliy [02:21:29]:
You guys kill a lot of time together.

Eldar [02:21:31]:
Yeah.

Tommy [02:21:31]:
I'm just curious.

Eldar [02:21:36]:
Thank you, Tom. Finally, you blessed us with a fucking funny question.

Vemir [02:21:42]:
That was excellent.

Eldar [02:21:45]:
Don't go into detail. Please.

Tommy [02:21:49]:
Take that approach.

Anatoliy [02:21:50]:
She said, like hell I'll give you.

Vemir [02:21:51]:
Guys wasting time together, right? Clock strikes twice, wrong a day.

Tommy [02:21:56]:
Listen, have you guys ever heard of Gunny sacking?

Eldar [02:21:58]:
Let's get back to the thing, okay? Because you keep bringing up this random shit that we never heard of, and.

Tommy [02:22:04]:
I'm happy to bring it up.

Eldar [02:22:05]:
We'll do it all.

Tommy [02:22:07]:
I know you're happy to hear.

Eldar [02:22:08]:
Thanks for exploring that with me. You're welcome. Are we by any chance more empowered when it came to our original question about setting goals, speaking them out right, thinking a certain type of way without really, and then doing the actions that we're doing. They might be good, but they're not really attached to actual empowerment or self confidence or any of the good stuff or contentment. Like Catherine said, right into your life. Are we on to something?

Tommy [02:22:34]:
Great point.

Eldar [02:22:34]:
If so, what are some conclusions that you guys making in your lives in order to not self sabotage yourself and then have self negative talk arise from unaccomplished things that you're fucking waiting or dreaming about in the future?

Tommy [02:22:50]:
I love how you said connecting yourself goals to contentment or self care.

Eldar [02:22:59]:
You did.

Tommy [02:22:59]:
You mentioned it that.

Eldar [02:23:02]:
Tom, whatever you say, whitewash this shit. Come on. Listen, Tom, I'm going to tell you right now, let me say this on there, because people might think that you some kind of weird guy that just showed up to the podcast. Let me just tell you this. You could be wrong a thousand times here. You could be wrong a million times here. None of that shit matters, Tom. You can be a jerk off.

Eldar [02:23:19]:
You know why? Because you are ours, Tom.

Eldar [02:23:22]:
You are our course.

Vemir [02:23:22]:
That is so sweet.

Eldar [02:23:23]:
You understand? That's it.

Tommy [02:23:25]:
Don't understand.

Eldar [02:23:26]:
Don't fully understand that washes away all your sins.

Tommy [02:23:33]:
But hey, look, understand, it's a very good point and a big point for.

Eldar [02:23:36]:
You might be a big sinner out.

Tommy [02:23:37]:
There, but here are very much centered around. That's what, you know what I was saying earlier?

Vemir [02:23:42]:
Centered around what?

Tommy [02:23:43]:
I'll just say this. The other day, I had a very similar thing. I had a similar thing where I was saying to myself, like.

Eldar [02:23:51]:
I've got.

Tommy [02:23:52]:
To just express that I'm not feeling like anything's working. And I'm feeling like I'm kind of like, just not making any progress or something like that. But there's the flip side, saying, hey, I've done a lot of things recently. I've packed a lot of things basically into a single week or something.

Eldar [02:24:12]:
If you did all this and you're still extracting the fact that you're not happy with yourself and you're down on yourself, you did absolutely nothing or you fucked the whole thing up.

Tommy [02:24:20]:
I did not say that.

Eldar [02:24:21]:
You mumbled, jumbled everything into one.

Tommy [02:24:23]:
Say that. I realized that just knowing that I'm in the present moment, allowing myself to see this is negative self.

Eldar [02:24:30]:
That's only reflection. I'm not talking about reflecting on shit that you've been doing, Tom. You're talking about reflection doesn't work. It's fucked up. It's not what we should be resorting.

Tommy [02:24:38]:
Why doesn't reflection not work?

Eldar [02:24:40]:
Because we're trying to get to the fucking bottom of how to become curious about the things that we do so we don't have to fucking reflect on them, which I did. No, you're doing reflection, Tom.

Tommy [02:24:48]:
No, that's not true. I'm saying I experienced something like this the other day, and I allowed myself.

Anatoliy [02:24:53]:
To see that after the point.

Tommy [02:24:55]:
I allowed myself to see that I was in the present moment and then just to be able to see that. Look, while there are.

Anatoliy [02:25:00]:
Yeah, but you're reflecting.

Eldar [02:25:01]:
There are things that.

Tommy [02:25:02]:
Thoughts. There are these thoughts. I know I've done all these things for actually the point that I'm making now, but you were for my own care.

Eldar [02:25:10]:
You were still sad.

Tommy [02:25:10]:
No, for my own.

Eldar [02:25:12]:
You woke up. What the fuck?

Tommy [02:25:14]:
Why do you guys make fun of.

Eldar [02:25:15]:
Me and say, that's an example. You do nothing of you doing absolutely nothing.

Tommy [02:25:19]:
I find that.

Eldar [02:25:19]:
Okay.

Tommy [02:25:20]:
I find that to be funny because it's kind of a joke in a way.

Eldar [02:25:23]:
Okay.

Eldar [02:25:24]:
It's not a joke to us.

Tommy [02:25:27]:
If you were so serious about it.

Eldar [02:25:29]:
You wouldn't be laughing right now. I'm willing to give you money to.

Eldar [02:25:32]:
Do nothing, which I would accept because.

Tommy [02:25:34]:
I need that for my own care.

Eldar [02:25:35]:
That's how serious I am.

Tommy [02:25:37]:
I need that money for my own care.

Eldar [02:25:38]:
As long as you agree to, like, I'm not going to do anything.

Tommy [02:25:41]:
I would say, hey, I won't create.

Eldar [02:25:42]:
I don't want to see any progress.

Tommy [02:25:43]:
Which is what your deal was.

Eldar [02:25:44]:
I just want you to just be funny because you are art. And being said, you cannot create is glorious.

Anatoliy [02:25:50]:
And we're willing to pay him to just exist.

Eldar [02:25:54]:
That's it. Yeah.

Tommy [02:25:55]:
And in a way, guys, in a way, just so you know, to what limit me working can he. Procreate has somewhat taken away from the time that I have to create. And it's forced me to make some kind of.

Anatoliy [02:26:06]:
That was the best thing you've ever.

Tommy [02:26:07]:
Concessions or whatever. It's forced me to organize and know when to do the things that I really want to be doing. Not working. You know what I mean?

Eldar [02:26:16]:
In retail or whatever, selling cheese. All right, thank you, Tom, for your final thoughts. Baby, what do you got? Have you learned?

Tommy [02:26:23]:
Wait, I didn't finish my final thoughts. I was saying that.

Eldar [02:26:27]:
I'll give you another 30 seconds. Land your fucking plane.

Tommy [02:26:29]:
I was saying that a huge part of the goals, almost all the goals that I set lately have to do with just being feeling well, feeling happy and just self care. For me, that is my view of how I live a better life in general. It's why I'm allowing myself to overcome this negative mentality of thinking like I'm not enough good, but I've done plenty for myself.

Eldar [02:26:58]:
Great.

Tommy [02:26:59]:
So I can live here in the moment.

Eldar [02:27:00]:
You're getting good at reflection.

Anatoliy [02:27:01]:
I'll tell you one thing out there, these kinds of episodes, I feel like they add value because every one of episodes we have to throw a curveball to the listeners. They come in with a particular expectation and stuff like that, and then they just get thrown a little, like for a little loop and they leave. If you listen to this back, you just really listening and following along, there's no way you walk away and not.

Eldar [02:27:28]:
Say, what the fuck, you know? Joe always listens and he's like, yo.

Vemir [02:27:32]:
This is fucking great.

Eldar [02:27:33]:
He loves following know, but he says, yeah, this shit is crazy.

Katherine [02:27:36]:
But Joe knows this pretty well.

Vemir [02:27:42]:
One is very cohesive.

Eldar [02:27:44]:
You can't just have every.

Anatoliy [02:27:48]:
Yeah, some of them have to just like little. And I can't wait for our editor.

Eldar [02:27:52]:
To edit this one.

Eldar [02:27:53]:
Right, guys, listen, we haven't heard much from Tom.

Vemir [02:27:59]:
Let's give him another word.

Eldar [02:28:04]:
You've been quiet for way too long.

Anatoliy [02:28:08]:
Start over and go for a new topic.

Eldar [02:28:11]:
Can you do me a favor? Can you just say it again? Because nobody really understood what you said and you were sitting quietly for a very long time.

Eldar [02:28:19]:
Go ahead.

Eldar [02:28:22]:
Look.

Tommy [02:28:23]:
Wow, I'm really batting 1000.

Eldar [02:28:25]:
Really?

Tommy [02:28:26]:
Are you buzing? Because yesterday I felt like my friends are basically enjoying my presence. And I think that's like a positive for me. I've been pursuing creative things and just talking about creativity, talking about art yesterday, just being around you guys again, it's awesome. It feels great. Thank you. So, yeah, I think just my thinking tells me right now, be grateful to be here now, Tom.

Eldar [02:29:01]:
Put her there.

Anatoliy [02:29:02]:
I would like to donate my final thoughts to Tom.

Eldar [02:29:04]:
Yeah, Tom, go ahead.

Eldar [02:29:06]:
Wow. Go ahead, Tom.

Vemir [02:29:08]:
Same.

Eldar [02:29:09]:
Wow.

Anatoliy [02:29:13]:
Go ahead, Tom.

Tommy [02:29:14]:
Final thoughts for Tolly? Yeah, that means I have to, like, step into your shoes.

Vemir [02:29:18]:
No, you just have more time.

Katherine [02:29:20]:
No, that means you have more time.

Tommy [02:29:22]:
Oh, I got you.

Eldar [02:29:24]:
Yeah. Okay.

Tommy [02:29:25]:
So I'm grateful to be able to hang out with my two friends, two.

Eldar [02:29:30]:
Dogs who I love very much.

Tommy [02:29:34]:
I was grateful to be able to struggle to move a couch today because I feel like I worked to actually sit in this seat and be part of the podcast.

Eldar [02:29:43]:
Awesome.

Tommy [02:29:46]:
And also to be grateful for, to see that perfection is just like a way of self sabotage. We had this idea of bringing in a nice couch, and we kind of were able to pull the veil away and see that about all things.

Eldar [02:30:04]:
It's pretty great.

Tommy [02:30:07]:
Yeah. And I think that that's something to appreciate.

Eldar [02:30:11]:
Thank you, Tom.

Tommy [02:30:12]:
We can have certain luxuries.

Vemir [02:30:14]:
Now for Catherine's final thoughts, we have.

Eldar [02:30:16]:
Go ahead, Tom.

Tommy [02:30:18]:
Hold on. And I think the point is that normalizes, in a way, enjoying certain luxuries, but what is it that you're after? You know what I mean? You were after, like, a nice couch that you can have good friends with, and we're going to enjoy it. So that's still a w. That is still a w. My man.

Eldar [02:30:37]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:30:37]:
Thank you, Tom.

Tommy [02:30:38]:
All right, Tom, now you have final thoughts.

Eldar [02:30:42]:
Go ahead. You have Catherine's final thoughts, right.

Eldar [02:30:47]:
Why don't you sit on this one, and then we'll get back to you. Mike, did we learn anything?

Eldar [02:30:51]:
Did we uncover something?

Eldar [02:30:52]:
Do we have a strategy here in.

Eldar [02:30:53]:
Order to not fuck ourselves in the.

Eldar [02:30:55]:
Long term like we usually do?

Mike [02:30:58]:
I think the path that we're going down with this idea concept, wherever, this.

Eldar [02:31:05]:
Theory, it's very good. And I think that my hunch is that it has its hands in everything. Oh, wow.

Mike [02:31:13]:
It's much more deeper than we starting to think, because every time I think.

Eldar [02:31:18]:
About it, it gives me a completely.

Mike [02:31:20]:
Different philosophical understanding about a completely different topic, but also rooted in philosophy.

Eldar [02:31:26]:
Okay. Right.

Vemir [02:31:28]:
It's like a meta application from one perspective.

Mike [02:31:32]:
I look at it, I'm like, okay.

Eldar [02:31:33]:
I know that I know nothing.

Mike [02:31:34]:
From another perspective, I look at it and say it's not about the destination, it's about the journey.

Eldar [02:31:38]:
Right.

Mike [02:31:39]:
Those are two separate points very deeply rooted in philosophy.

Eldar [02:31:42]:
Very deep intellectual things. Right. And I feel like this thing, it carries all of it within it.

Mike [02:31:55]:
This specific topic that we're starting to.

Vemir [02:31:57]:
Explore carries many of the multitudes of those pillars.

Mike [02:32:00]:
Yes.

Eldar [02:32:01]:
And the more I think about it, I think that every single philosophical kind of virtue, moral ethic, whatever you want.

Mike [02:32:13]:
I don't know the right word here.

Eldar [02:32:14]:
But every single one is connected to every single other one. I agree.

Mike [02:32:21]:
So I think this one is connected to.

Eldar [02:32:24]:
It's a full circle within it. I don't think it has everything, but it has many things.

Vemir [02:32:28]:
And this points to you that many of these fundamental principles that you see are emergent, are from maybe an even deeper.

Mike [02:32:36]:
But they're all so tied together, it's.

Vemir [02:32:37]:
Like, impossible to talk about one absolutely.

Mike [02:32:40]:
Without the other, because everything is so deeply tied.

Vemir [02:32:43]:
Great final thought. That was beautiful.

Eldar [02:32:46]:
Are we onto something gorgeous?

Eldar [02:32:48]:
Can you just.

Vemir [02:32:49]:
How was that?

Mike [02:32:49]:
I want you to call it gorgeous.

Vemir [02:32:51]:
Gorgeous.

Eldar [02:32:51]:
Thank you. Vamir.

Eldar [02:32:52]:
Are we on something with this or not?

Eldar [02:32:54]:
My mic.

Vemir [02:32:55]:
Was that onto something? Absolutely. I think that emergent thing kind of in the beginning, we talked about curiosity. Yeah, that's a really good thing. Because we talk a lot about the ego and curiosity. I never really thought of it as consciously thinking it as beyond ego. You're exploring the world. You're trying to get wiser. It's not really about you.

Vemir [02:33:19]:
It's about just like, having a better experience. And in getting a better experience seeking, you're experiencing things better.

Eldar [02:33:25]:
Right.

Vemir [02:33:25]:
It's more full. So I don't know, I'm just taken by what you just said about everything being very much connected and interwoven. So when it comes to having a goal, the last thought I want to have regarding having a goal and curiosity is it seems as if.

Eldar [02:33:45]:
You should.

Vemir [02:33:46]:
Be okay with everything changing. As long as you're staying curious and opening yourself to more awareness, your goals may change, your destination may change. But as you acquire wisdom, I think you'll be happy wherever that path leads.

Tommy [02:33:59]:
Well said.

Eldar [02:33:59]:
Thank you. Tolle.

Anatoliy [02:34:01]:
I donated my.

Eldar [02:34:02]:
Donated. Okay. Yeah.

Eldar [02:34:07]:
For me, I personally think that. I think we are onto something with curiosity. I think we probably need to really explore the world of curiosity. How to become curious genuinely, right?

Eldar [02:34:19]:
Next Friday. Yeah. We could probably do that in order.

Eldar [02:34:23]:
To then extract that where we're talking about.

Eldar [02:34:25]:
And that's pure, true energy, like you said.

Eldar [02:34:28]:
It's almost like becoming a kid that has wonder about the world, right? And that kid that has wonder is the kid that says, I know nothing.

Eldar [02:34:38]:
Right?

Eldar [02:34:39]:
I know nothing. I have no ego.

Eldar [02:34:40]:
Right.

Eldar [02:34:41]:
I know that I know nothing. I'd like to find out. And that journey alone is the journey that you're talking about.

Eldar [02:34:47]:
Right?

Eldar [02:34:47]:
The connectiveness of what you just said, that it's not about the destination, it is the journey. So I think curiosity, genuine curiosity without attachments, has so much good for us.

Eldar [02:35:02]:
As individuals if we can actually focus.

Eldar [02:35:05]:
Tap into it and all this other stuff. How, when, what, we should definitely explore that. I think it's a very important topic.

Anatoliy [02:35:12]:
I also wanted to add, and if we can explore, is curiosity subjective or not?

Eldar [02:35:20]:
Okay, yeah, we can definitely do that.

Eldar [02:35:22]:
Right?

Anatoliy [02:35:22]:
Because some people might say, am I asked? How do you get curious or get curious, right.

Eldar [02:35:27]:
Okay.

Anatoliy [02:35:27]:
But people's different definition might be different as to what that means.

Eldar [02:35:32]:
Well, that's why I think we need to explore a little bit more in depth. But I think we all agree here, right.

Eldar [02:35:36]:
That when we're genuinely curious, we give.

Eldar [02:35:40]:
It our genuine time and attention.

Eldar [02:35:42]:
Yes.

Eldar [02:35:43]:
When we do that, how does it make us feel?

Vemir [02:35:46]:
The best result possible?

Eldar [02:35:48]:
Make us feel good.

Eldar [02:35:49]:
Make us feel good, right.

Eldar [02:35:51]:
Absolutely.

Eldar [02:35:51]:
Whatever that is may be. Right. Subjectively speaking. Catherine is curious about makeup. Tommy is curious about writing. Mike is curious about cars.

Eldar [02:36:00]:
Elder is curious about planting. Vermeer is curious about being curious.

Eldar [02:36:07]:
Tolley is curious about gaming.

Eldar [02:36:08]:
Right.

Eldar [02:36:09]:
Nonetheless, I think that whatever we're curious about, we go into the same place in that moment of curiosity, we wonder and that wonder is what fills us.

Eldar [02:36:19]:
And we're paying a lot of attention. That's what I just said.

Eldar [02:36:22]:
We focus. Beautifully said.

Vemir [02:36:26]:
I'm here for president 2024, baby.

Eldar [02:36:28]:
Let's go.

Mike [02:36:28]:
Let's do it.

Eldar [02:36:29]:
All right, guys, thank you so much. This was great as always.