Dennis Rox
Can Childlike Wonder and Curiosity be the key to our Happiness?
Have a question? Ask us and we will discuss it during the next episode.
Embark with us on a captivating exploration of the human psyche, where Vemir joins us to dissect the intricacies of curiosity and self-reflection. Together, we uncover the layers of what it means to nourish our inherent inquisitiveness and how it shapes our interactions with the world. From the sparks of rebellion against routine to the gentle humility of a child's wonderment, we navigate the labyrinth of personal growth and human experience, promising to leave listeners with a fresh perspective on life's most profound questions.
Throughout our conversation, we cast a light on the delicate balance between nurturing the innate curiosity in our children and the structured lives we lead as adults. Addressing the power struggles of parenting, the dance of social interactions, and the personal quest for authenticity, we share insights into the symbiotic flow of teaching and learning. We delve into the paradoxes of solitude versus community, internal motivation versus external accolades, and the importance of genuine self-confidence over the pursuit of knowledge. This episode isn't just a mere discussion; it's an invitation to challenge your perceptions and rekindle the flame of curiosity within your own journey.
Let's traverse the landscape of goal-setting, professional fulfillment, and the convictions that drive us forward. With Eldar as our guide, we examine how suffering can awaken dormant desires, how setting boundaries fosters understanding, and how procrastination might just be the compass pointing us towards our genuine interests. As we wrap up this enlightening exchange, you'll find that curiosity isn't just a trait—it's the gateway to immortalizing your soul in a world craving authenticity and purpose. Don't miss the chance to transform your outlook and embrace the transformative power of an ever-curious mind.
we on X
Have a question? Ask us and we will discuss it during the next episode.
Embark with us on a captivating exploration of the human psyche, where Vemir joins us to dissect the intricacies of curiosity and self-reflection. Together, we uncover the layers of what it means to nourish our inherent inquisitiveness and how it shapes our interactions with the world. From the sparks of rebellion against routine to the gentle humility of a child's wonderment, we navigate the labyrinth of personal growth and human experience, promising to leave listeners with a fresh perspective on life's most profound questions.
Throughout our conversation, we cast a light on the delicate balance between nurturing the innate curiosity in our children and the structured lives we lead as adults. Addressing the power struggles of parenting, the dance of social interactions, and the personal quest for authenticity, we share insights into the symbiotic flow of teaching and learning. We delve into the paradoxes of solitude versus community, internal motivation versus external accolades, and the importance of genuine self-confidence over the pursuit of knowledge. This episode isn't just a mere discussion; it's an invitation to challenge your perceptions and rekindle the flame of curiosity within your own journey.
Let's traverse the landscape of goal-setting, professional fulfillment, and the convictions that drive us forward. With Eldar as our guide, we examine how suffering can awaken dormant desires, how setting boundaries fosters understanding, and how procrastination might just be the compass pointing us towards our genuine interests. As we wrap up this enlightening exchange, you'll find that curiosity isn't just a trait—it's the gateway to immortalizing your soul in a world craving authenticity and purpose. Don't miss the chance to transform your outlook and embrace the transformative power of an ever-curious mind.
we on X
On this week's episode. You're saying civilization only progressed because we're curious beyond our physical desires.
Toliy:Yeah, I mean, I think the core of progress is curiosity, interesting.
Vemir:This problem of society and routine comes also from the perfectionist idea. There's no unified standard factory made human being day. That means that who you are has to become a little bit rebellious against society.
Toliy:I think that procrastination is probably the best thing that you could have in your life.
Vemir:Tell me why. I'm really curious now.
Mike:Wow, I agree with that, are you ready for the wire now?
Vemir:I'm absolutely ready, baby.
Eldar:All right, guys. So this is a segment from the last episode, or continuation from the last episode. Well, we concluded that curiosity is probably the most purest way, right To get to a place where you can truly go for knowledge or set proper goals, speak properly, think properly and act properly, right? And then Mike obviously had a lot of good questions around who am I curiosity and how to actually become really curious about something, right? So who wants to kind of take a stab at I say we let Tommy not go.
Mike:first yes, and then Tom. We have Tommy Hill figure in the studio today.
Toliy:Have you guys ever seen that one guy I know Mike has because he's a YouTube fiend, but he's a guy in YouTube that like he comes up to you and he gives you money and he says I'm going to give you this money If you don't say anything or answer any of my questions. Oh yeah, no, he puts them like what's your name? They say nothing. Like he asked another question, they say nothing. After like four or five hands I'm like the money.
Eldar:Oh no, how many people fail.
Toliy:Each time with Tom right.
Vemir:Most people fail. Oh yeah, you want to pay him per hour not to do anything? Yeah, just to sit in his chair. That's insane. Is that like welfare or something? No, I think that's art.
Mike:That's paying homage to Tom, the artist or artist named Tom Paid meditation.
Eldar:Yeah, okay, we've come to a conclusion that a lot of times, the way we speak, the way we think, actually gets us in trouble.
Eldar:Okay, a lot of times, when we set goals based on the way we speak and the way we think gets us in trouble and we develop negative self thinking and all this other stuff Because we don't actually properly see the steps and all this other stuff, then we've come to conclusion that the reason why this happens to us a lot of times because we're very arrogant about the way we come across in the first place, about these types of things, right, we start saying all these big, grandiose plans out into the world about ourselves and how we want to be and stuff like that, without really examining what's behind it all. Right, so, in conclusion, we realize that the one way to get, maybe prevent some of these problems right, is to become humble and have a curious mind, because when you have a curious mind, you're like a child, like you said, right, you don't have this arrogance, you don't have this ego, you genuinely go into the state of wanting to find out what's actually going on.
Tommy:Right.
Eldar:So when you go into that, right, you negate certain things, you stop making conclusions, but you start birthing questions. And when you start birthing more questions, right, your curiosity naturally keeps going. We would like to find out today how can we get, how, how can we tap into this curiosity so that we can go on these journeys that actually fill us and not take away from us? Because a lot of the times, right, when we go on these journeys chasing out so-called grandiose dreams and goals and stuff like that, it depletes us for the reasons that I told you, because we don't have the right ability to structure them properly, speak properly, think properly and do properly Right. Therefore, we'd like to find out. We concluded that curiosity is one of those things that if we can tap into it, we can really go on an adventure that can really fill us up, give us more energy, more motivation, natural motivation, right, no, discipline, right, but curious wonder like a child. I agree with you.
Vemir:Children get lost in the garden just playing with ants and stuff. Forever that's right.
Eldar:They lose track of time playing with animals, ants and other things, flowers, birds, whatever right. They're genuinely curious and I think that's what fills us with, again, like I said, probably that self-confidence about ourselves and then obviously, about the world. So then we can find the truth and knowledge that we need in order to continue, because when you authentically know yourself, you know what you need.
Vemir:Right, you don't give a plant a steak because it doesn't need those nutrients.
Vemir:But if you give yourself, let's say I'm very interested in pottery and you make me an insurance salesman, it's going to deplete me because it's not the thing that charges me, but pottery. You give me some clay, you give me some whatever. I'm losing track of time. I'm doing it forever and someone else can't understand how does this guy love pottery so much? Because it charges me and my system. But curiosity is more of like taking in a If you're talking about yourself, self-reflection, curiosity about your own life span you have to be objective.
Tommy:Reflection may be good for someone.
Vemir:You have to be a little. Not for others, I don't know, okay, you have to be like objective about your life as much as you can. If you have all these pain points and these tensions and these things you want to put in a closet and not look at anymore, then you can't really be curious. You have to look at it without judgment and you are judging your past self, for sure. I think curiosity as a jumping off point, we can say curiosity is from a non-judgmental state, right yeah.
Mike:Pure curiosity should be from a non-judgmental state.
Eldar:Yeah, so I think that if you're genuinely curious, I think that for the moment you do lose yourself because you enter a journey.
Vemir:Because I think the self is a separating thing. It distinguishes what should and shouldn't be. It's right and wrong, who I am, who I'm not. Curiosity is like this All the inputs can come in. You're accepting all information when you're purely curious. So curiosity is not a discretionary thing. It's kind of like just pure input and you have to lose yourself, which has discretion, in order to be truly curious. I think yeah.
Eldar:So open-minded for the moment, for the moment, to enter in all that information. You can't be naive.
Vemir:Yeah, but being curious, I think, requires you to get out of your own way, so to speak, which is an obvious thing to say. But it's a really important thing to kind of pull back the curtains a little bit every so often, because if you're judgmental, you're blocking inputs You're not allowing yourself to explore. Now, sometimes you can go too close and put your hand on the stove and burn your hand. That's where curiosity kills the cat and whatever else. Curiosity can hurt you for sure. Young people are curious about stuff because they're naive.
Tommy:That's a nice observation.
Vemir:So thank you. So it's like I feel like if you are curious and you're kind of like passively curious, that means you'll probably have a window where you take information in before you take action. I think when people are curious and then they take immediate action, that could be a mistake.
Tommy:Okay, that kind of makes sense. Can you repeat it one more time?
Vemir:Curiosity has an interesting chain with action. If you're curious about something and then you go into it and take an action, experimenting, you might get into a situation where you can't recognize danger. You don't know all the variables enough yet. So I'm saying that passively being curious in an observational state rather than an engaging state might allow you to not hurt yourself while you're exploring the world non-judgmentally.
Eldar:What are some things that actually make us curious? What are some examples of that? This is not necessarily a question just for you.
Tommy:Paintings. Thank you, bill. Art, I mean writings the way people say things, the way people write things make me curious. Stories, twists and turns, and stories.
Eldar:But what about? It makes you actually curious. What is it that sparks your curiosity?
Tommy:I don't know. It's been there for a while. How the fuck did you just do that? Why does a work of art affect people?
Mike:Why does something?
Tommy:written affect someone.
Mike:Does curiosity generally have an element of a surprise thing or no?
Vemir:Curiosity means you don't know something.
Mike:You don't know something, so you'd like to be surprised or you're open to be surprised.
Tommy:Dude, I would say yes, Absolutely.
Vemir:I agree with that 100%, it's like yearning to get more information as a very diluted way of putting it right I guess there's also maybe levels to it.
Mike:You could be curious about how to be a better person, or is that not curiosity then? How to live a better life, how to be happier, are those curiosity?
Vemir:There's curiosity relative to you, and then there's curiosity just about the world. Let's say I'm curious about Gibraltar. Sure, I learn about Gibraltar, but it doesn't affect how I make my coffee. Who is this Gibraltar? Is that territory under the UK? On the bottom of Spain. Gibraltar has a really high peak. It's 80 miles from Morocco and there's a new story about monkeys attacking tourists in Gibraltar. It's like a tourist destination. So Gibraltar is not really. Gibranis are from, Gibraltar is from Gibranis.
Vemir:That's what they're made. Gibraltar is not really relative to most of our lives, but you might be curious about learning about it. It's interesting, it's very far away but it's still relative to your life, like learning about Jupiter or something like that. You're curious about astronomy, but it barely affects your center core of daily life. But then you might be curious about how do I lose weight, how do I get girls, how do I make more money All this normal stuff. People are very curious about getting right.
Tommy:So that would be a more macro process thing, right.
Vemir:Curious about alleviating suffering.
Tommy:I'm sitting here, I'm doing nothing right and I'm just like, okay, I'm totally free, I'm curious about how to lose weight. Now, how do I let this curiosity just sit, or what do I do? It's up to you. See, that's the thing. I think it's so important to define that, Like I don't know, I think of myself, like You're talking about action, again Action.
Tommy:Yeah, I think of myself actually like with the potential to do something here and now, right, and like it could be just this little thing that I'm curious about. But I think like false goals are set up quite easily by saying things like I'm curious about, like how to X-Y or whatever.
Vemir:So if you're curious about something and then you don't take action to investigate it, what does that say about that point?
Tommy:I'm more curious about, like just the point when the thought comes up, you know, rather than if you don't take action.
Vemir:So do you think there are people that are naturally predisposed to being more curious than others?
Tommy:There's probably a way to be more imaginative and be more curious. I would say yeah, more. My imagination is a little bit better today than it was.
Vemir:What makes someone more curious?
Mike:Do you think it's something that's innate within a person like Mr G installed it, or I think maybe pain problem solving.
Eldar:So it's curiosity like it's almost like, also like after long periods of time where you, you know, maybe making mistakes or having problems or have pain sooner or later, you're like okay, wait, what am I doing? It kind of slows you in your tracks, right. Yeah, almost like when you finally get humbled, right, because you've been banging your head over the same thing, you know, same wall, every single time, and then you're like, yo, I can't get through here. Like, what am I doing wrong? You finally humbled yourself, you removed the actions, right, that you were doing, and now you sit back and you're like and you start asking questions Like, why can't I get through this wall? So I think pain is one of those motivators that can, it could be one, it could be one.
Vemir:Another one is, without any pain or suffering, like a kid. They're curious Without a need for resolving a personal issue. Right, a kid might be like super curious about the different flags in the world or like how trains work and stuff like that. Yeah, that doesn't come from a pain point.
Eldar:Yeah, no, kids, I think, have that natural thing that they're almost like God given.
Vemir:right, some people are curious because they're desperate to alleviate suffering. Some people are curious simply for the joy of learning and new experience. Right, there's curiosity and novelty also, and I think novelty is a thread between both of those A novelty of not suffering and living a better life and novelty of just discovering the world because it's so vast.
Eldar:Yeah, because can we agree that being genuinely curious and going on the journey of discovery is a pleasure experience? Absolutely A pleasure, folk experience. Can we agree?
Vemir:on that. It's an interesting thing because I think the base reality, like the nature of reality, is that it is bigger than we are, because there's no way, if you lived even 500 years, you would understand everything or learn everything. So I think understanding life is understanding that the well runs very deep, almost infinitely deep, meaning that if you're in a bad situation, there are many ways to get out of it. If you're learning about something, there's unlimited things to learn about, like coffee. You can learn about coffee for 60 years, 80 years. So that means that your delusion, when you're suffering or feeling stuck or trapped, is that you don't have options, or that there's not more to learn or there's not more to discover. I think so. A child's mindset is one that's a beginner's mindset, because you always have more to learn and that naturally keeps you humble. The objective mindset, the non-self, is the learner, because he or she is always investigating, because recognizes that there's always more to learn and discover.
Mike:So do you think within kids the curiosity is innate?
Eldar:Yeah, they're not shut down. I think it's in everyone. It's innate.
Tommy:Yeah, for sure it is.
Eldar:The kids I don't think are subjected to the same, maybe suffering yet.
Mike:Yeah, that kills the curiosity If it's something, that you're a kid and you're curious. You have a lot of questions. If your parents are not open to it or they're like yo, can you stop asking questions or shut up, shutting you down. That then, in a way, kind of kills your curiosity.
Eldar:For sure. And then?
Eldar:you lose it as an adult maybe For sure, you dumb it down. Right, you dumb it down, this is the way it is. This is the way it is, without explanation. And then you're like, okay, this is the way it is. And a lot of people will you know like I mean. Toli has a really good example where a lot of times where his dad presents him a problem and Toli starts asking questions around it Sooner or later, as that hits that wall and says that's just the way it is Right, and Toli's like, wait a second, there's more questions to be asked, right, but to him he's closed that door and said that's just the way the world is.
Vemir:Sadguru says every conclusion you make about life is one more little death. Yeah, never make conclusions. And I thought that's so interesting.
Eldar:Because I think someone with that high ego. That's what Socrates' whole premise is.
Vemir:All that I know is that I know nothing.
Eldar:Yeah, because he actually understood this exact point. Because he realizes the vast massive, never-ending.
Vemir:I'm definitely going to die before I figure it all out. That's actually what Delugos told me. He said you'll probably die before discovering the truth. I said, okay, game on. But it's like. That's, I think, a very comforting thing, because you can approach any situation as there's unlimited doors, rather than no doors.
Eldar:Yeah, I think with that mindset you don't develop things like arrogance, exactly.
Vemir:You can't be arrogant because you can't hold everything.
Eldar:Yeah, it's a contradictory state of mind. You can't be in two places at once.
Vemir:So knowing well, I mean. Though, then we have to talk about certainty, like when someone's certain of their destiny, they're certain of something that's important for them, like I will defend my family, or you know like I need to work out every day, or something like that. Or do you think they're going to approach that until they come up with something that's contradictory?
Eldar:Or they are faced with the actual fact, and then you know the actions or whatever proves otherwise.
Vemir:So setting up any kind of permanent structure will eventually pigeonhole you into a stress point, 100% and almost.
Eldar:I think life works in such a way. It's job. It's to prove you wrong, to teach you right.
Vemir:Life is undefeated. Yeah, so it's kind of like you have to be this, like amoeba, my friend says he well, he's an atheist, so he has to get rid of that. He said like he's an amoeba of thought, like he keeps good ideas but any of them can die at any point, and then the new one, the better one, comes in. So he's like this moving thing. But that would imbue the question like is there a persistent essence? But that's another, I think, whole million dollar subject. The question is like when you're you don't want to become too unstructured, like too much freedom is actually what we say. Is the danger of curiosity? Right, you can do drugs, you can enter a situation, you could say something that causes you consequences.
Vemir:There's a certain naive aspect to being always like open brain, groucho Marx. You know that guy with the glasses and the big nose, groucho Marx, he's a comedian. Back in the day Groucho Marx said you know, have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. You know what I mean and I think that's a nice way of saying. You know, it seems like you should move forward with certainty but be able to change and adapt at any time. I think that's healthy, like to have no structure, is very unnerving for me. But it's like life will definitely sweep the rug under you if you stick this. If it's like putting it's like putting a metal pole in the in the ocean, eventually it's going to tip over. You know what I mean Like eventually something's going to break it. But if you're kind of like surfing, you know you'll I don't know, I don't want to get too analogous, but it's like do you feel like that's true, like you have to be strong but adaptable? Like what's the nice fine line there?
Eldar:Well, I think again, you're talking about probably Buddha's balance.
Vemir:Right, the balance of curiosity.
Toliy:Well, I think that, like curiosity, has like focused and unfocused, like efforts built into it, so like give some actual examples. Like you were bringing up the example right About, like Gibraltar, yeah Right. And I'm like, when I think about curiosity around things like that, I almost feel. I almost feel that as like a like, a like, almost like a nothing to do curiosity, right, or it's like.
Vemir:Without purpose.
Toliy:Yeah, almost like without purpose or without. Well, I mean, like like I think it's different to be curious about like I don't know, like the makeup of, like your mind or like trying to figure out different things. And then I think that there's like a different curiosity, which I view maybe a little bit more like a unfocused one, right when you could be like curious about like Gibraltar and like why, like the, why the monkeys attack the tourists, while they're eating Cinematography styles.
Toliy:Yeah, like there's like. To me it's almost like if you haven't figured out your purpose in life or you haven't like a Relevance. If you're not aiming somewhere right, then you're more likely to. If you're so curious to me, to maybe like veer off and all these like different things. I don't know if that makes sense but, but it isn't.
Mike:I understand what you're saying. I'm curious. I'm curious. What you think, then, is part of curiosity, not curiosity not to alleviate pain and or seek pleasure. Right, it is, is part of it Not saying is it to alleviate pain and is it also part of it to seek pleasure? Well, I think curiosity is probably like when you, when you're in, when you're suffering, you're curious to alleviate that pain. So so you're curious to find out what's causing it, how to solve it.
Toliy:Not necessarily You're desperate to yeah, I don't think so. You're desperate. To yeah, I'm not sure.
Tommy:Not always. Not always. Not always, most of the time not yeah.
Vemir:So the thing he's saying? I think you're placing curiosity somewhere else. A little bit like I understand what you're saying, you want to figure out the situation, but like Curiosity comes from like a lack of attachment to outcome. When you're trying to alleviate suffering, your attachment is to alleviate that suffering, right.
Mike:Why? Why is curiosity have a lack?
Vemir:of a pure curiosity, and tell me if my intuition is wrong on this. When a kid plays in a park for six hours, he's just joyous, but there's no purpose to playing.
Mike:No, the purpose is the joy.
Vemir:No, it's in itself right, but, like when you're curious, maybe in that process you're also alleviating suffering and that's good, but it's like it doesn't have to be in that case, because maybe the kid is not suffering.
Vemir:No, I'm saying, if you're what you just said, you're trying to solve a problem and you're curious about how to solve that problem, that process itself might be healing. But the point I'm trying to make is like the Gibraltar thing is actually more curiosity than figuring out your own mind to solve a problem. Like if you're just like, if you're always seeking a purpose, then you're, then you're, dependent on an outcome. If you're curious, you're kind of open to all of the possible, all of the possible options. You know what I mean Like, but I know what you mean. Like you're saying, if you live in California and you're learning about Gibraltar, it feels less relevant than how to pay your rent. Right, I get that, but it's like or like how to stop your incessant thoughts or something like that. But I feel like you have to differentiate between curiosity to solve a problem and curiosity for the joy of life and discovery.
Toliy:Let's put that kind of there, you know what I mean, but I think that you can only be so, so. So there's a few things there, I think, from like a kid's perspective. I think that when, like, someone is born into this world, right, I think that like the goal, like when, when the kid starts to like to use their mind and they almost, like I guess, realize that they have a mind, I guess in like a way, right, they start asking questions and they start wanting to do things, they start having desires and stuff like that. I feel like that would be forever, like that would be something that's like forever lasting, but I think that it's killed by the adults by placing responsibilities, placing like they tell you what to care about.
Toliy:Yeah, shutting you down on certain things and then, like you guys were saying, you close certain doors on things. Right, that's what happens. I think, if you did not do that to a kid, I think that people are born into this world to and and, and I feel like it's always been like a like a small like, not not, not like a small goal, but I think I've told all this before, but, like I guess, when we were in, like why P and we start and like you know you, start asking Use partnership.
Eldar:It's like a volunteer brother program yeah.
Toliy:Yeah, like when, when, like, for example, like when others started asking questions about certain things and bringing up points, and like when I started to like little bits of start to like think right, like I feel like the essence of my existence will almost like carried over into like a statement, like, like I, like my main desire was to find out, oh right, but I but not find out anything.
Vemir:I guess maybe in particular so it's like a self-evident quality.
Toliy:Yeah, my desire is to find out and I feel like when a kid is like born into the world and they start to think they have an automatic I think a human, automatic desire is to find out, because it's like you almost realize and like yo, like I'm alive.
Eldar:What is this I have?
Toliy:hands. You know like I was born from another person. Right, like like. You're not just like. Downloaded a set of information about like. Ok, here's who you are. Your purpose is to become a baker and to supply bread to this town.
Vemir:Some people are born knowing that they have a purpose right.
Toliy:Well, I'm not sure if they're just born knowing that they have a purpose, but I think that it might be like, like I'm saying is that it's not like a baby is just put in there and it's like one of those futuristic movies where, like this, is you know, two days old, this baby, brad right, and he's, he's going to build computer chips and supply it to, like, the mass world. I've heard crazy stories, though. I know you. I know you 100%.
Vemir:The point being is, like some people feel like they have a jewel and they have to do it, like Jerry Seinfeld when he was six he saw a comedian on stage. He froze. He's like what is that? And he knew. And like I hear that story threaded, thread so many things, but that's like with purpose, like they seem to know. I wanted to plan a flag, but I can wait. I didn't want to interrupt your train of thought. I want to plan a flag and you guys can tell me if it's correct. You want me to do that now. I'm not sure what you mean. Like I want to propose something.
Vemir:Okay, yeah sure, I think what you just said about learning for learning's sake, let's say that's like a seeker, right. So I think that we all have, above our kind of worldly driven things, like a Muhammad Ali wants to be the greatest box motor. Beyond that you're seeking is, then, the flag I'm planting is that you're seeking God, you're seeking a higher sense of being yourself, to understand who you really are, and I think that everybody has that internally, and layered above that are societal, worldly, physical, sociological, psychological mechanisms or whatever else, and the more you uncover, the more you discover that kind of base essence. So I think that the curiosity about life can go in many different directions. It could be about cabinets, it could be about plants, it can be about, you know, supply chain management, but eventually, if you're curious enough, you will discover the ultimate nature of existence and your source. What do you guys think about that?
Mike:That's where curiosity leads you. So you're saying that curiosity was kind of innate in us so that we can find this, what we can talk about ourselves?
Toliy:Yeah, I mean, I think that there's no progress of like mankind without curiosity, right, like nothing would have ever been invented or built, or like changed if there wasn't curiosity.
Vemir:But yeah, civilization would not progress if we stopped when we were sedated and satisfied by our amygdala Right, madhula and Blangada, madhula and Blangada what are amygdala wants right, sleep, rest, food, sex, this kind of shelter. It's like we still want something after that, right? So you're saying civilization only progressed because we're curious beyond our physical desires?
Toliy:Well, yeah, I mean I think that like the core of progress is curiosity, Interesting, Like that's the only place I think it could Interesting Come from. But yeah, back to what I was saying before about like the purposeful curiosity or not, I think that if you're segmenting to things like Gibraltar right and stuff like that, I feel that at some point that person minimized what I guess now are considered the basics of like your own human functioning.
Vemir:So let me ask you a question then. So, from the spiritual perspective, everything on this earth is Gibraltar, and the only thing worth pursuing is understanding the true nature of your being right. And so Gibraltar feels like it's irrelevant. But also, you trying to get a Versace belt, you trying to become a senior vice president, all of these things, even down to things that we naturally hold dear, like family, earthly purpose, these things like that, it's kind of like those are outward curiosities, but the inward journey is the deepest and the most important thing. Very interesting, what do you think of that?
Eldar:I mean, based on what you guys were saying, at least my conclusions that I was making in my head, is that curiosity equals progress, right Progress, it can, it can right. Well, you just said that.
Tommy:Yeah.
Eldar:I mean, hey, the reason why we have all this stuff is because we were curious. Curiosity is an open-ended conversation versus like a conclusion is a close-ended statement.
Vemir:And goals are close-ended.
Eldar:So if you're genuinely curious, it's an ongoing journey, it keeps going. If you made a conclusion, you stop, or you even create war, I would say because I, for example, say you are this right? Yeah, like I don't know. Hitler said Jews are bad. That's a conclusion Right Done. There's no like who are Jews right? Curiosity, why are they the way they are?
Vemir:That's a false goal.
Eldar:Well, yeah, it's a conclusion statement which stops and creates war. That's a conclusion, it's done Right. You know what I mean. There's no longer an ongoing conversation, good example as to say, hey, what is humanity, who are humans and what are we here, right For the purpose, and stuff like that. I think that's what I was extracting based on what you said, that a curious mind, right, it forces you to progress, to continue learning and potentially create, discover and do great things. Yeah, and non-curious, one can force and create war and conclusions.
Toliy:Yeah, Now one destruction in general. Yeah, one.
Eldar:So one Arrogance and anger is the same thing.
Vemir:Tarantino, by the way, is pretty much only curious about movies, which is fine, which is fine, but it's the same thing, like he's closed all doors except one, and I feel like that's not bad, in my opinion. I'm saying, like, some people are curious infinitely, but in one singular area. Right, that seems to be a very interesting thing, and I don't think you can silo any subject, right, if you learn about coffee, you learn about the whole world. If you learn about movies, you learn about the whole world If you still have to be. But it's like through a framework, interestingly enough. So, yeah, anyway, there's just an observation, no question after that.
Toliy:After, based on what you were just saying, now that I'm thinking about it, it seems like I have a big human dilemma.
Toliy:Now, based on what you were just saying, I'm curious if you guys agree.
Toliy:Okay, so one thing that people, just in general, I think either like say or maybe like agree upon, or that humans are routine based creatures, sure, right, sure.
Toliy:And I think that one thing that, for example, like we were talking about this before, a child doesn't really have, or like a kid, a objectivity of time, starts and ends, right. So one big dilemma that I feel like mankind has, that maybe that either don't think about or haven't figured out, is that the way that we're raised and like the way that we grow up, right, we're constantly taught about starts and ends of things, right, go to bed at 11, set an alarm clock, wake up at a specific time, have work, start at a specific time, maybe eat at a specific time every day, shower at a specific time, do certain things at very specific times, and it's a very start and end type of format. Spongebob is on three to five, right, a very start to end format is how we're like conditioned right and we feel very comfortable in particular routines of this type of conditioning of starts to ends of things. Well, that can be argued.
Eldar:Well, yeah, okay, I'm not sure if the people actually feel comfortable in those routines.
Vemir:A contradictory point, though, is that you said civilization cannot exist, it cannot progress without curiosity. How could civilization progress without the sense of time? You have to show up at this meeting. We have this schedule for this thing done.
Toliy:The bakery's open from seven to three? That's my question is like, to me, the core essence of like a child, I would say, is having a ton of curiosity and having no sense of time of different things.
Tommy:Sure, no sense of death.
Toliy:So I feel like these routine based things that people kind of live and do. To me it almost counteracts and prevents curiosity. Right, because you can only think about something for so long, right? Or you can only be curious about it for, like, because you have responsibilities and because you have these constant starts and ends through things throughout your day. Is that not a contradiction or like a calendar point towards curiosity?
Eldar:Well, sure, but then again, yeah, like to Vamir's point, sheh needs to get done at the end of the day. Yeah, that you're going to be wondering, right, you're going to be curious out there, but at the end of the day, at some point in time, you have to bring knowledge back. No, I know so that discovery or that understanding has to be applied in order to create something?
Toliy:Yes, but do you think that the application of it needs to be regimented?
Eldar:No, I don't think it has to be, but I think it's just what is. Yeah, I think it's based on like I don't think it has to be.
Vemir:It's embedded in your life too, like you can work on building a computer for seven hours without thinking of time. You're going to get hungry, though That'll wake you up. You eat something, then you go back to whatever you want to do.
Eldar:Or you get tired or you go to sleep, so like.
Vemir:I think the physical body gives you the reminder of time and even also like knowing that you're going to die?
Toliy:No, it does, but I'm saying that in the current format of how people's lives are, I almost think that it prevents pure acid?
Vemir:Oh for sure, it steals your attention, it steals your focus. It's like the backlog of your brain.
Eldar:We don't say like, hey, like you know what, one to two instead of lunch, I'm going to go and be curious. Like we don't have curiosity penciled in Scheduled. You know what I'm saying? If we did, I don't think we would have such a problem. But because our mind is preoccupied with all the problems, right, it's hard to get curious in the first place. I think curiosity lives in the place of free of time, for sure.
Toliy:Yeah, but I also think that like the way that people have these like more routine based lives is that? How does an individual even get curious about something when they guess they have no time you have to free yourself up.
Eldar:No, you have to suffer.
Eldar:Yeah, you have to suffer long enough, right In the case of an adult that you're asking that's been in a routine that's been causing himself or herself pain for a very long period of time. Sooner or later it's going to wake up and be like what's wrong here? Something's wrong, something's off, yeah. But I feel like, and then they're going to go on that thing and they're going to. What are they going to do? They're going to quit their job. They're going to quit whatever that they were doing right. They're going to re-define their time.
Toliy:Yeah, just feel like Curiosity for somebody, curiosity about how they use their time also. Yeah, I feel like it's hard for somebody to get curious about something, even if they're suffering, right? I feel like it's hard for them to get curious about how they can alleviate it if, when they, they don't have a very good example of others, right, Because when they look around, they're going to be like yo, we're all working, we're all like, you know, like.
Vemir:That's the adult telling the kid to shut up again. Yeah, yeah, it's just in a later time. What are you even saying? Yeah, you have to be rebellious.
Toliy:I think that's the way you've got to do I think totally.
Eldar:That's one of the reasons why we have these conversations in the first place is because number one, we're trying to use critical thinking right To help ourselves, right With whatever it is that we're doing. Then we've come to understand that, hey, there's certain things that serve us and there's certain things that don't serve us, right, I think individuals that don't have the ability to critically think in the first place, I don't think they can make any kind of deductions proper, but deductions in order to free themselves from the chains of routine, yeah, they just can't.
Toliy:Yes, I just feel like curiosity has no place in a routine based life. I agree with you.
Tommy:And that's a problem.
Eldar:Yeah, no, I agree with that, yeah.
Vemir:And it's like a pimple, like routines are like this kind of stress. It's like it hurts, it's red, it's unsightly, but eventually comes to a head. Everybody maintains a full routine forever and is like a robot and doesn't feel it. They're going to feel the pain of that routine and the pain of the restriction of any creative thought whatsoever, and they even recognize that. They hate it and they feel trapped.
Vemir:But I think you're always wrong. If you feel trapped, even like when I see people in prison who become lawyers when they have life sentences or turn to Islam or become Christian, they're giving themselves a little bit of freedom there, right, like that slave, the Greek slave who was being tortured. He realized when he was being tortured that he was finally free. Because even if all the external forces are against you, nobody can control your mind truly or like you know those things except you. You can control your internal state and you're responsible for that, and the internal state being changed will change your external eventually. And what he's saying is that you will be narrowed into your mistakes and over time it extrapolates until it's too much for you to bear, until you have to become aware of it, and then you will change out of force. The wise man anticipates this and doesn't do that. Does that make sense?
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying.
Eldar:Yeah, I mean there's. I think there's different ways to skin this cat to get there, you know.
Vemir:A lot of cat analogies.
Eldar:Consciously or subconsciously, you know, but ultimately I think that you know, if we fight, especially like Mike said, or whoever said about the kids, we start promoting this curiosity or trying to help our kids to to wander timelessly, you know, without restraints, I think that soon or later they're going to find direction in which they're going to go and there is going to be structure, because sooner or later they're going to have to, you know, implement certain things, certain strategies or whatever it is, in order to get to where they're trying to get to.
Vemir:So the structure becomes voluntary? No, no, no, exactly.
Eldar:And it's actually the structure then becomes, not a routine that somebody else oppressed you with.
Vemir:It's you understanding the synchronization of you and life. Like I like to work out in the morning, let's say because it wakes me up and I don't need coffee until later- that is because you yourself now know yourself. The more you know yourself, the more that the structure in place is conducive to you rather than resistant, correct.
Eldar:I think yeah, I agree with this, yeah, but that comes from knowing yourself. And being curious about your own mechanism and the world, and the world, I think being authentic is completely being non-judgmental of yourself and accepting who you are.
Vemir:And I think the human self is always flawed because it has a dimensionality to it. Right, and I think it's important about balance. Like you have the shadow self, the Jungian shadow self, and then you have, like, the lighter, virtuous side, and when you integrate that shadow you're not sweeping anything under the carpet about yourself. I know what my capabilities are because I think when people are in self-destructive patterns they put it on themselves because they haven't integrated the dark side. They're repressing something. Can you imagine a being who has not repressed anything? They've explored into the very depths of their dark mind and into their soul and they understand the vast landscape of who they are. There's no fear there, there's nothing to hide from, and the more you dig in, the more you discover. I think another flag planted is going to say like you will discover that there's so much value and things to love about yourself and then you will act on that me loving myself through nurturing, through challenging, through exploring. From there you will then become the one who enjoys your life because it's full of good things, and there you will kind of inspire others to look at you and they will see what is that guy doing right? It's because he understands himself better. Oh, I don't need to be perfect to be fulfilled.
Vemir:Like I said, I think perfection is definitely coming from a lack. It's another illusion. So even if you're curious about perfectionism what is perfectionism? You'll discover it's a false, it's a foggy mirror.
Vemir:So I think, yeah, I think this problem of society and routine comes also from the perfectionist idea. Like the perfect routine, the perfect day, the perfect there's no unified standard, factory made human being day. That means that who you are has to become a little bit rebellious against society. To how much we don't know. But it's like there's no way that someone has in this human realm the map to your life. You have to discover it. But the thing is that playbook is within you. Actually, all that information is there just to be discovered. And the more curious you are, the more you dig in and the more you kind of toss away what's not for you, that pink sweater, that whatever, and then you more integrate into what's good for me, into my programming, into what I need and the fulfillment, and then the output becomes more quality. And then you become different than this program self and you become this back to the natural state? I think that's interesting.
Eldar:It's a good point about being a little bit rebellious.
Mike:Yeah.
Eldar:Because I think that we talked about that, mike, where challenge use very specifically in school, right, and I think that our rebellious side kept coming out because we wanted to have fun. We clearly saw that school wasn't fun and the structure that they've presented to us wasn't good enough for us at least for me and you Right we constantly got in trouble, we constantly got detention. Why? Because we wanted to have fun outside of school. We constantly cutting class and getting caught. You know what I mean. And obviously we didn't fit into that mold and I think we had that curiosity, naturally, which constantly gave us that rebellion side that allowed us to then push the boundaries a little bit. But in the society or at least to Mr Kaplan we're the back kids, we're the ones who are like, hey, these guys are the misfits. You know what I mean, even though me and you, maybe subconsciously, our souls innately knew that we needed to rebel in order to protect our curious side, which is to have fun.
Mike:Or at least because nobody could really give you an answer like why you're doing what you're doing. Nobody would ask. And if you did ask, nobody would give you a good enough answer. Why are we learning fucking trigonometry, fucking AP statistics?
Eldar:you know whatever all these things, standardized tests, what I'm trying to socialize and make jokes. That's what I want to do.
Vemir:But again, the kid who plays video games is also locked into a pattern. He's having fun, but he's not thinking about the grand scape of his life, his parent might reorient him in a healthy way.
Mike:But your point is very solid.
Vemir:No, no, but I'm not going against that.
Mike:What you're saying, I agree, but it's a generalization. If the kid is doing it out of pain and suffering and he's escaping into video games, that's one thing. If the kid is enjoying it, he's good at it, he's getting better, he can become professional, right.
Vemir:Or he could translate that into something else.
Eldar:I think the integration into society, back from your curious mindset, is also a super necessary thing and it's like it's inevitable.
Vemir:To add value.
Eldar:No, no, to avoid more pain, because you can sit there and have swamp beds only for so long and eat hot pockets. Sooner or later, something's going to start hurting.
Tommy:Right or you die.
Vemir:Or you die Sooner or later and then next life yeah.
Eldar:There's more pleasures out there. You might exhaust that side. There's drug addicts that keep doing drugs and they're like, hey, these drugs don't fucking do anything anymore. They burnt out that specific neuron or whatever that's in your brain. That's not going to give you pleasure anymore. They just can't extract that anymore. So they have to get up and be like okay, what else is out there?
Vemir:Maybe they serve as a lesson to other people through being unintended martyrs. And if we look at the process of reincarnation, if we accept that premise as being true, then over time you just keep learning and burning until you arrive at your natural state. So I think it's a very cohesive thing. And curiosity. I think this conversation can go for millennia right Like we can talk about it forever.
Eldar:I think it's a very important aspect.
Vemir:But it hits man, like when we talk about it. It hits.
Eldar:And the question, the questions around this whole thing, is to how do we, if we become parents right one day, ensure that we don't become the gatekeepers, right, of a curious mind, right of the adventure that a kid can go on, right, If you let the kid out into the backyard I'm just picturing. Right, If I have my kid right, Let him wonder. Right, he's going to come across, like you said, ants, butterflies and all these other things, right, and that's a natural wonder where it's like, where did this come from? Like, what do they do? Right and there's obviously place for that as well that we have researchers, Nat Geo and stuff like that, where this serves a purpose and we get to understand how nature works and how we benefit from nature, pollinators and everything else. And your kid can potentially go down that path and really explain the, I guess, the connection between it all right, and in turn, help us understand ourselves and the world.
Vemir:Because, you know, when a kid says something, you're like I never heard that before, I never thought of that before, because they're less programmed so they're just spewing out stuff. You're like where did that come from? That's amazing. You know, kids amaze me all the time.
Mike:Yeah, because that might be the recollection of this all.
Vemir:That might be. It's a reminder for you that you're kind of you're automatically like. So it's like. It's actually like. Parenting is a double action.
Eldar:It's a symbiotic relationship, yeah it's teaching and learning at the same time.
Vemir:You're learning from them how to behave.
Vemir:They're gaining information from you and processes and I think, when it comes to parenting, I think the important thing I'm speaking purely off of theory is you know you always being aware of your own patterns, catching them and then learning as much as you can, so that when you have kids, you're aware of when to put the clamp on only when necessary, like the minimum amount of force necessary, and then when to just allow them to be their authentic self and be a little rebellious, and know when to allow them to breathe their authenticity.
Eldar:But I'm not going to be sure. Rebellious is necessary here.
Vemir:Absolutely necessary.
Eldar:You know we were rebels, not because you know they were promoting this.
Vemir:It's because something in you was breaking out of something that was not you. That's right.
Eldar:So I think that if we actually actively promoting curiosity, I don't think they have to be rebels at all.
Vemir:I do, but also I'm a rebellion only exists because there's, like, inauthentic frameworks in place. Yeah, you're rebelling against something that's false. You're not rebelling against nature or God or yourself. You're rebelling against the pressures that are illusory, that are trying to force you against yourself, and they're not even aware that they're doing it.
Tommy:That's the whole thing.
Vemir:Yeah, it's like just the game is awareness.
Mike:Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say, the awareness that that was. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, like the curiosity, right, the way I'm understanding it is that for me at least, you know, is that we're generally curious how to have more fun. Let's just keep it like, I guess, for me simply how to have more fun, how to have more seek, more pleasure, right, so like.
Mike:And the example that came to mind is basketball. Right, at some point, right, we all learn, not all but we got curious about basketball, about the game. We don't know if you play basketball, but a little bit. Me and Nelder and Tolu play, I think, a good amount of basketball. We like it, been playing it for most of our lives. Tolu would beg to differ.
Mike:Yes, she would argue that I agree. And we got curious about the game right, and we didn't think about like hey, how to ethically play this game or how to virtuously play this game right, but if you keep playing basketball right and you don't question the way you engage in it, or you don't develop awareness you use.
Mike:Well, maybe you hit a ceiling, but then it becomes no longer fun. You start arguing with your teammates, you start arguing with the refs, you start arguing with other players. Right, you start this thing and now it's no longer pleasure, it's no longer fun.
Vemir:You've come to a conclusion about who you are at basketball right.
Mike:Unless you decide to reevaluate, and I think that's the curiosity, I think that's the awareness, like, hey, I can extract still more fun. Right, like Elder has his approach where, when people become too serious, he starts trolling them on the basketball court in order to not take away from his fun, but to extend his fun and a breakthrough is very pleasurable when you do a soccer thing, like for me.
Vemir:My basketball is soccer. I played basketball for many years, but my whole life spectrum you'd say soccer. Right, you'd say it's like when I imagined something and I worked out how to do it. It's an amazing feeling. And then also one thing that's really important is I'm always better at the game of soccer football when I'm more aware. Sometimes I'm in my head, I suck anxious, I'm the snowball of judgment. You're doing shit, so you do self bad talk. It gets worse when you break through and you're aware all the time Magic happens. Like I didn't know, that was in me, I could do. You know what I mean. You start to discover new pathways and then you lock in that pathway because you like that shit. You do that, that works, and then you, you break that in until that breaks into something else. So in the game of, in the sports game, the beginner's mindset is the reason, I think, why some become amazing, like I think Kobe had a beginner's mindset right.
Tommy:I don't know.
Vemir:Anyway, it doesn't. The examples maybe don't matter, but in capoeira they say the most dangerous capoeirista is the beginner, because he's unpredictable. Most of the people that are professional advanced intermediate. They're locked into patterns. They learn how to do things right but they're not being created.
Mike:They're not free style.
Vemir:They're not doing the essence of it, which is pure creativity. And I feel like in basketball and soccer, you do have to break patterns, but you have to learn those patterns too, like some patterns work for the goal of the game and some patterns don't work, which need to be analyzed and eventually dissolved. You know, that's an interesting thing in games what needs to be kept, what needs to be, you know.
Mike:But I think it's not just the thing, it's in general in life, right, engaging in an activity or whatever, maybe with its sports or relationships, you know. I think you want to figure out a way. Be curious, I guess, is how to extract the best experience.
Tommy:The most amount of fun.
Mike:Whatever you're doing the most amount of fun, yeah, engaging and fully in. I think a big part of it is the awareness. It's super important to really pay attention, like hey, how am I feeling here? So I think awareness and curiosity, somehow they're tied right.
Vemir:I think awareness is the prerequisite for being curious, like? The more aware you are, the more aware of what's available to you, right? Like? Someone who's not aware is like a robot. They do one thing, nothing else. That's their thing. When we talk about someone who's going into suffering, they're just doing the same shit. They're feeling pain. They're not even fully aware of the pain or why it happens or when it happens, or you know these kinds of things, so the more aware you get, this is an allowance for you to become a curious person. You can't be curious if you're not aware, because it doesn't even exist. Curiosity requires you to be aware of their being options. Right? Curiosity requires you to be aware that there are even options available to you.
Tommy:I think that's where it ties, I guess maybe genuine curiosity, right?
Mike:It's not like aware, that's just like instinctual like oh, that looks like fun, Is that? I guess, that also awareness.
Toliy:Like where it's not like you're aware of it. So could you say that curiosity equals the awareness, having the awareness that there is something more.
Eldar:Yeah, yeah, you could say that, yeah, right.
Toliy:Because the only way that you can get curious about something or not be curious about it is if you're not curious about it. For example, you could be under the impression that like this is it.
Eldar:But yeah, that's why I think he said that awareness is prerequisite to curiosity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike:And another thing I was thinking about, just a theory about this, about you guys were talking about the guess.
Mike:The responses to our parents shut us down sometimes and that kind of kills the curiosity, right. So I was thinking about, maybe this is the way it was naturally intended, I don't know. I think you said something about there's this curiosity where it's just action, it's like a thought, right, and I think maybe that is already like some kind of morphed form of curiosity and in a response to some kind of trauma or something like that, where initially curiosity didn't have that thing, you did want to go and be like hey, what is this? I really wanted to study it and go deep versus act, and then kind of do it backwards let's just call it backwards, I don't really know. My hunch is that initially we had this, but it also became a trauma response to say hey, like shut up, like don't ask me about this, I'm not going to answer your question. There's another way that we got kind of blocked in some kind of experience where we didn't think before we acted.
Vemir:I think that might be. This all triangulates into taboo, right? Like the rebellious aspect, the new awareness maybe, but more about the curiosity. It's like sex when you're a kid you don't know what sex is, You're curious about it, but the thing is, if a kid goes into that field being unaware, then he's going to encounter serious problems, like young people can get pregnant or you can get taken advantage of by someone older or something like that. So do you think curiosity plus rebellion without awareness is a bad formula? Right, I think it's a natural result. But this is the thing. The mechanics we got to work through here is like when someone's curious and then they get hurt. Why does that happen?
Mike:Because they didn't take the time to slow down. It's not part of their process.
Vemir:And kids naturally don't slow down when engaging. No, they want to meet this person. That person is a stranger, you don't know what's going on. But the thing is, if you're an adult and you're too much analyzing all the outcomes you may never explore.
Mike:No, but I think it's asking questions. There's a thing, it's a secure attachment right.
Vemir:Safe exploration Do you know the attachment styles when they leave a baby alone without the mother? Does it scream and cry, does it keep playing and exploring, does it wait and then it avoids its mom when the mom comes. This is a really important part of your centeredness and your attachment styles to people, but this is extremely deep and complex. I'm thinking why does someone explore and benefit and why does someone explore and get hurt? If you're doing safe exploration, why do you not go into heavy drugs and why do some people who are curious try that kind of stuff? What's the level of risk you're going to take? And a kid doesn't know this. They don't know really what death is, or risk very deeply and I think this is a junction point that people really have a problem with. They become aware of their death, of a real problem, of a trauma, and then it shuts down a lot of doors. They don't want to get hurt again. So what allows you to explore safely without feeling like you're going to get traumatized?
Mike:or hurt or something. I think we're saying, yeah, I think it's hard to know when, the point where that kid lost, I guess, that genuine ability to be curious without all the stuff that's been put on them by their parents or somebody else that told them no, don't ask this question, shut up, leave me alone. You may think it happens at age 10. I may think it happens at age five or three, first day, right.
Vemir:Then the parents might be doing it because they don't want that kid to explore the area because, they know, if you go down that path, it's going to hurt them Sometimes though.
Eldar:What are some examples? If a kid is crawling if he's small, he's crawling on the street His car is going to get hit. Sure, I see how parents can do this intervention there, but if a kid comes next to a fire and puts his finger in there, are we stopping him or are we letting him learn what the fire is?
Vemir:So this is the measurement, right. Why is it okay to stop a crawling kid in the street because you know that he is not aware of his-.
Eldar:Well, it's because the world, let's just say, is not really a perfect world in the sense that there is danger, let's just say, for humans, but there are certain things that are super necessary to learn through pain.
Vemir:So should you make a child, who is curious but not aware, more aware of danger? But how do you allow someone to be aware? This is the scary part of becoming more awakened, right Is that you realize that there is more danger out there.
Eldar:Well, now that I think about it, actually a kid can understand don't cross that street or go on that street, where he already understood that an object that's going this fast colliding with you or touching you will hurt, and that can be practiced at home. Like a dog's running, right and running fast enough to understand, like, okay, like if a dog is running fast enough and it hits me, I feel this pain, I'm not going to die from it and I'm okay with teaching that lesson, for example, right and going forward, the kid will be a little bit more aware. Like, hey, that dog's running, I'm out.
Vemir:The reason why you apply wisdom in this scenario is to help someone continue to be able to explore. You're allowing them, you're giving them the why of why you're shutting a door down you would like yeah, I think it's very important.
Mike:No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to shut the door down.
Eldar:You should always just they have to shut the door down themselves by saying that oh, this equals this, logically say hey, that object moving at this speed hitting me right will hurt, because I've tried this, the dog hit me. That means if the car is going this fast and this big, you know I'm, I'm staying away from there. So it's a natural process of like this is good this is bad, but there's some things you can.
Vemir:You should never try even once. Well, no, I agree with that. So I mean, that's obvious. I'm not making any discovery there, but it's like if there's some things you can never try once, I think if you can, no, it's going to take a long nap. Yes, I mean, but you don't want your kid to take a long nap. So I think if you shut something down for a kid, the mistake parents make is they don't give the. They don't give the reason.
Vemir:I think I could sit a kid down and explain to him why drugs are bad.
Mike:That's how you feel right now. That's how, if you're right now, imagine you're working two jobs. You're married with your wife, she's working two jobs. You're exhausted, you're tired, Shut up. I don't want to talk about that. That's stupid. Isn't that a very, a very common response.
Vemir:So, aside from what's common, let's talk about what the right thing is to do. That's what we're trying to do?
Eldar:We're trying to get to the right thing. So the right thing to do, I think would be to prevent curiosity to hurt you to help the kid explore safely forever.
Vemir:You tell him why boundaries are there in place. Yeah, you try to explain to him how the world works, and then if he disagrees with you or she disagrees with you to a certain extent, they're going to learn themselves, but the best thing you can do is educate them as deeply as possible.
Eldar:At the end of the day, when do you allow complete autonomy? We say 18 years old. You're an adult.
Vemir:I don't even know what an adult means by the way.
Eldar:Well, sure, sure, I'm just saying right, the construct of our own society. Right, like 18 years old, you're an adult, you can do whatever you want. You want to go kill yourself? Go kill yourself Like you can do that if you want to.
Vemir:There's a woman who blinded herself with chemicals. It's not illegal to do that, it's just stupid.
Eldar:Yeah, exactly, and that's her choice at the end of the day, right? What's our right as a parent? Then right Comes in, and what's our role and purpose in the kid's life? To learn certain things that are bigger than us.
Vemir:And I think the thing we can fix. Parents don't give reasons and I think we underestimate the youth's ability to understand things a little bit more deeply. You give them the full reasons of why going to strangers is sometimes oh, that's promoting curiosity.
Mike:Curiosity is by giving reasons, helping them to understand the way things work Without being naive.
Eldar:And then if you point to your kid and say, hey, that thing right there, that fire right there, it hurts, right, we've explored pain before, like I've pricked you with a needle or something, right, and it's going to hurt. You didn't like that, right. They can either trust you or they can be curious. But, dad, I'm still Okay, cool, go over there and try it now. Hey, then you don't have an argument, right, it's like, hey, it's kind of like I told you so a moment, right.
Vemir:And then Do you agree? Like my uncle actually says this. He says I'm going to tell you not to go down this road. My job is to just tell you don't go down this road. You can do whatever you want, but don't go down that road and come back to me, right, and say what did he say at the end?
Mike:there he's like Don't come back complaining, exactly.
Vemir:So I think that's the. You have to respect that another human being has their complete free will and autonomy, no matter what you do.
Eldar:Yeah, but that's not your uncle's advice, though that's like you know. He's telling them what not to do.
Vemir:Exactly, but I'm saying that you have to.
Eldar:I'm not saying no, I would say it in a different way. I would say it.
Vemir:hey, how would you say it? How would you adjust this philosophy?
Eldar:I would say that, hey, through my experience when I try this, or based on what I've learned, these are certain outcomes. Now it's your choice to do whatever you want with it. So I'm saying, like you want to try it, no problem, but like you can't come back and cry, right.
Vemir:So your responsibility as a parent is employing awareness as clearly as possible.
Eldar:If you can, yeah. Without taking away the autonomy, curiosity and everything else that's God given.
Vemir:let's just say so how do you allow your kid to be rebellious?
Eldar:I don't know, though you don't really I'm not sure if they have to be rebellious in that type of a structure.
Toliy:I don't know if it's.
Tommy:Oh, you won't treat it like rebellion to promote awareness or not.
Toliy:I feel like the lack of curiosity and the lack of understanding as to how things work happens from. I don't think people naturally believe that Having an understanding, that there are explanations to things, I think is a very I mean, it sounds basic, but I think it's a very advanced understanding. And just to live on, it Inmigri or developed. No, no, saying just to live with that, with that kind of like belief that there is an explanation as to why right, Sure?
Mike:but I'm asking is that innate in us or is that something that we have developed, this thing that you're talking about, through life?
Toliy:Is that something innate in?
Mike:us Is what innate, Like what he's saying is sorry, what you said.
Toliy:Yeah, so I was saying that people don't have an innate belief, like they don't have a belief that they're. Is there an explanation to something? Everything? There are explanations as to why something happens. They more live under the assumption that there isn't an explanation.
Mike:Yeah, and I'm asking is that something that people develop to think that like, hey, this is just what it is?
Eldar:I think so.
Mike:Yeah probably.
Eldar:It's a developed thing, right, but the best teacher is experience, I think that's cool, but some experiences should not be had.
Vemir:Well, why do you say that? Because they might take 40 years or a lifetime to come back from. What's wrong with that? It's a waste of life.
Eldar:If you canno, but you're making that assumption.
Vemir:But I mean your thing, what you just said at Absurdum will cause huge problems.
Eldar:Like I'm saying, like in my perspective, it feels like there's a reason behind as to why your specific soul, let's just say, is gravitating to a very specific thing.
Vemir:Probably, I think that applies to everybody. I think it's true. Yeah, like I think we all have predispositions as to why.
Eldar:So I think that if you need 30, 40 years to learn that specific lesson, in order to not reincarnate to relearn that lesson again, again, the patience thing right, but I think, if we can even say mathematically, you would want someone area under the curve to have. But we're working out a premise of a mirror of we reincarnate right. Let's say that so then time doesn't, matter.
Vemir:Orthodox Christianity, and this is like directly from practitioners they heavily criticize Hinduism for believing in reincarnation. Because of this reason, because they say the religions that believe in reincarnation think that they have plenty of time.
Eldar:They're the same people that say as long as you accept Jesus into your heart on the deathbed, you're good.
Vemir:But there's also that's from a lack of awareness to more awareness. That's like one point, and I'm not saying the Orthodox Christians are correct. I think that they are having a limited perspective on what reincarnation is and how it plays.
Eldar:Listen. If you find out that reincarnation actually is the truth of the matter, you would wake up faster. You better hurry the fuck up and do it right now.
Tommy:That's what.
Eldar:I'm saying, oh, it's over for you.
Vemir:I would not want to keep reincarnating to say bullshit, that I'm fucking learning right now. It's a fucking scariest thing. It's a waste of time. So what I'm saying is don't you want to, as a rule, learn the lessons without going through more cycles of suffering? Well, sure, that's all I'm saying.
Eldar:But I think you underestimate that certain lessons take a certain amount of time, right? Just like, how long does it take to learn physics? I don't know, I never took it right. Does it take four years, five years? But there's a curriculum to that, right? How long does it take?
Vemir:to learn algebra, and life has a very long curriculum.
Eldar:Yeah, but I'm saying that Life lessons, ego, arrogance, all these other things, right Virtues and stuff like that. I think they also have their own curriculum.
Vemir:I think what you're saying is extremely clear of the way things go, and I'm saying just as a principal, the faster you wake up the less you suffer.
Eldar:Where are you rushing to?
Vemir:I don't want to suffer as much.
Vemir:I want to learn and become a worrier, and not being respectful, respectful, respectful, respectful, respectful for the Well, some people can give you good advice from their mistakes and them not doing it, but they can't do it for their death. For them, yeah, yeah, Like actually, what is that thing? Nietzsche said it's a crazy thing. He said like people were criticizing him. You know, Nietzsche has such a terrible life. Why are you giving other people advice? He says what makes you think? The same keys that open your locks open mine.
Eldar:Yeah, what the f**k. This is true, yeah, and I think we can segment that into totally. I'm asking you a question. I think you probably understood or heard of Amir loud and clear when he said hey, like, come on, man, like you know, we're wasting time here. Why does he suffer from that, you think? Because I think that maybe you probably related.
Vemir:Can I ask a pre-question? Yeah sure, why do you? What pain point do you see that that is causing me?
Eldar:Attachment to time.
Tommy:Hmm.
Vemir:There's something and I have to admit there's one spiritual component. I'm asking people these past like nine months because I don't get it. They say time is an illusion and I get it, but I don't get it. And when I talk about patience and all this stuff and timing and purpose, time is definitely a factor. And so the prerequisite is, I asked you is like, why do you think it's a problem that I want to speed up? Well, or you know life's process, I feel like I need to wake up as quickly as possible so that I avoid suffering and I can help as many people as possible. I know why it's a recurrent theme, so that's causing me pain, because I'm attached to time, which is actually preventing the process Totally. And you're saying and why is it not advisable to try to wake up as quickly as possible?
Toliy:I think that you have an attachment to time right now, because I don't think that you believe that you're on the proper path.
Vemir:I think, if I do some investigation, I feel like depression and other lazy, procrastinatorial things in my past, which I think is excusable when you're young, but I was very hard on myself in terms of squeezing out my time or you realize that there's FOMO because there's so many good things to do and you wasted it on being depressed All these components. I think it's a backlog of me catching up of when I felt like I wasted that time, which you would say was definitely necessary part of the process. So I feel like it's less of a factor than it was a couple of years ago. I feel like it has improved, which would then support your argument that if it's bothering me less, it exists less, maybe, but if you're saying it's because I'm on the wrong path, you think I'm so conscious of time because I'm wasting a lot of time.
Eldar:No, no, no, no. He said very specific thing. He thinks that you're subconsciously, maybe, are aware or convinced inside of yourself that you are not on the right path and therefore you feel the way you do.
Vemir:So I don't think that I'm using my time well now. Okay, so you are agreeing with that? No, no, I'm saying that's what you're saying.
Toliy:If I'm on the wrong path, that means I'm not using my time the best way right now, if you have that kind of relationship with time and I'm a little confused here.
Vemir:You're saying that I'm on the wrong path, or I think that I'm on the wrong path inside, subconsciously. Yeah, if you have this attachment to time you would say that, then that means that I feel like I'm wasting time now.
Eldar:Yeah, correct, and therefore you have this relationship with it.
Toliy:Yeah, therefore, you need to do stuff faster, learn stuff faster.
Eldar:That's why you're promoting this thing.
Vemir:So what's the solution?
Eldar:Yeah totally.
Vemir:What's the solution? How do I feel like all my time is well used?
Eldar:How do you feel? How do you know that it's not? That's the thing you operating out of, the assumption that it's not. So I have to be more grateful for the time my question is how do you know that those experiences and everything that you are doing is actually a waste? I don't think that, because there's clear judgment on them, correct?
Vemir:I think I recognize a judgment. Oh, here I'll give you examples and you tell me if I should destroy this or keep it.
Eldar:If you gave us examples of actual your life experience and things that you're doing, we'll find out and ask you why you do the things that you do and I think we'll come to a conclusion that actually those things are very meaningful, even though you might be judging them as not Okay.
Vemir:so now I mean meaningful meaning, that they serve some purpose to teach me right?
Eldar:Okay, you probably don't yet, because you're probably coming at them with a little bit of arrogance.
Vemir:Okay, so let's go into like, for example. I think one of the best things that happened during this holiday season was I'll just keep it anonymous like a gift to a family member that was younger. It was a full experience and I feel like it was a memory being created in real time. It was very beautiful and we shared that experience together and it was exactly what I wanted to do and that felt like. Not even for a moment did I consider it like it was amazing that that happened in real life. When I do some sports or soccer or weightlifting, I always feel that that's well used. The times that I feel like there are gaps, or when I take too long to get started on work, or when I am actively procrastinating, which is like I am organizing the kitchen, when I need to do a task at the end of the day by the end of the day or procrastination is
Toliy:a bad thing.
Vemir:I do because I feel like I intellectually value many things and I realized that my physical life as Vamir is finite and I want to do as many of these great things that I think are great, like surfing, traveling, improving these kind of many dimensional things.
Toliy:That's all BS.
Vemir:No, I enjoy surfing? I don't think you value those things I do, but I don't.
Vemir:There's some laziness or lack of like consistent momentum. I could go down to LBI right now and surf. Why don't I do it? Because you don't want to. I feel like there is like a latent thing that I'm trying to kill, which is like thinking, almost like I have too much time, but it's like a false illusion which keeps me on YouTube or it prevents me from doing work that's challenging, or like, sometimes, those little buoys, or like valleys of comfort allow me to avoid hard things until it gets to a head.
Toliy:No, I don't know. I think that procrastination is probably the best thing that you could have in your life.
Vemir:Tell me why. I'm really curious now.
Toliy:Wow, what if I just walked up and left right now?
Eldar:That just sounds. Good, though, that just sounds good.
Vemir:I need to hear why.
Eldar:That just sounds good 100%.
Mike:I agree with that. Are you ready for the wire now?
Toliy:I'm absolutely ready, baby. Okay, procrastination is the best thing that exists for you, because it's a very good indicator of what you well, ersof, it's a very good indicator as to what you do and don't want to do, because none of us have ever procrastinated something that we actually want to do, bam.
Eldar:However, it is not being looked at as an asset.
Toliy:No, it's being looked at as a judgmental bad thing, and because it is, therefore, you have to do things faster, you have to learn faster.
Vemir:So let me ask you a question the whole nine yards, for example, social engagements. There's no procrastination, that's easily recognizable. There's no way that I'm slowly putting on my shoes to come here or going out with friends or meeting with family or parties or even conferences for AI. I'm excited to make the effort to go out there, but the thing is, the problem is those don't feel like tension things or they seem like I am improving while I'm doing them, but it doesn't feel as difficult, let's say, and you might say, oh, that's part of your passion, something you love to do, but there is a reflexive quality.
Vemir:I feel like when it comes to social engagements, you have to bring something to the table that requires you to go into study, to do your own things, to have your own life experience. You can't just be around people all the time. So that's a very unique variable, I think, in terms of something that I really love to do is be around people, but I have to understand my own relationship with myself and how to enjoy being alone. I do that sometimes, but it's like why do you?
Eldar:say you have to. Well, I feel like who told you this? Who put you on that? I mean, it just feels like the right thing to do or it's just like a fad.
Vemir:I feel like some people they enjoy doing their own personal. Why does it have to apply to you? I mean, let me think about it, If I filled my life with being surrounded by people?
Eldar:What's wrong with that? I like people. I'd rather be with people.
Vemir:Wouldn't you say that's avoiding being by myself.
Eldar:Everybody says you're avoiding being by myself. I want to avoid being by myself. What's the problem with that?
Vemir:That means you're escaping something. What I don't know.
Eldar:You have to discover what it is. So what, so what, so what?
Vemir:No, like you really, I clearly have a preference right.
Eldar:If I'm a social butterfly and I like to be around people and I can do a lot of it and it's not really causing anything, what's the problem with that?
Mike:I'm asking a challenge. I think his thing is he feels that he is using his time better alone to do something, but that something is undefined.
Vemir:It includes things like study or working intensively or problem solving an issue or learning, something like, for example.
Eldar:Yes, that perfect self is a lone self. It's created in your imagination and it's by himself.
Vemir:So let me ask you a question. I have said to myself, with an abundance of money, what I want to do is hire tutors throughout the day, for example, an hour of mathematics, an hour of this or that, so I would be learning, but it's always with somebody and I actually don't see a problem with that. How long you want to learn for Forever?
Mike:So, you want to learn everything that exists, or anything specific, just like mathematics, capoeira train some art and literature, these kind of things.
Vemir:Why did you pick those things? Because they're naturally interesting to me.
Mike:Is there something that stands out above those things? That is even more interesting.
Vemir:I think, spirituality, philosophy. You're going to tell him that if he gets the money.
Eldar:He won't do any of it. No.
Vemir:I'm currently paying to learn Russian and it goes well when I do it.
Toliy:But I have problems doing my own homework by myself.
Vemir:Like I'm very motivated in class, but I need the class to get up and do it. I need to be with people sometimes to be motivated, do you understand? Like when I'm around guys who lift up and that's a weakness or a strength it feels like I want things to come from me sometimes, rather than me being prompted by somebody else.
Eldar:But if you know yourself that's how you operate, why not leverage that? Don't you find a weak point there? Not if you use it to your advantage, like if I'm thriving with my friends. What are we talking about?
Vemir:here, and sometimes I naturally desire a cool off period, which is healthy.
Eldar:Like I love balancing my ideas against my friends, my friends balancing ideas off of me serving that purpose and stuff like that. I feel alive. Yeah, but I feel alive too. I feel alive too.
Toliy:He loves very much under no pain, no gain than philosophy Probably yeah, that does discipline philosophy. Yeah, I feel like he uses discipline and he needs to experience pain in order to gain, to feel like it's progress.
Vemir:Okay, so let me ask you then why is so? If I'm spending time with people all the time, I don't think I'll ever procrastinate, because there will be no room to procrastinate and no motivation to procrastinate, and I feel I don't think that you believe that though. No, I think that this is something I can change, but I feel like, am I missing anything by not working the muscle of? I said I was going to do it and I'm going to do it and there's nobody pushing me, for example.
Eldar:Well, then again you're going back to our previous conversation that you have negative self-talk because you make unrealistic and improper goals, and having conversations with yourself because you're hurting yourself.
Vemir:I did an analysis of like me being motivated by, for example, when I was younger. A clear analysis I did was that I was seeking the approval through A's, through teachers and a lot of kids that didn't like me. So because, whatever, I was a nerd into the work, so I was seeking the approval and doing the right thing. And then I said, like, who am I really like? What actually motivates me beyond these expectations of my family or teachers? That's like a common thing you go through. And then I thought to myself, well, what do I actually like? And one is like very obvious like travel. Like nobody prompted me to do it.
Vemir:When I was 19, in my intuition, I said I'm going to Japan and I just bought a ticket, and that was, at the time, very rebellious of me. And every time that I travel, every moment feels valuable. I'm discovering this new building structure, style. I'm discovering these new people, learning something dynamic and I feel more alive, vibrant and awake. I've now been to over 30 countries. I feel like it's all well used time, so if I'm using not happy no, no, it's not that I was those things.
Mike:They don't really they. They fill you right, but they don't actually fill you and they don't actually nourish you.
Vemir:They add to my life of happiness as a check, checkmark, checkbox. No, this is your now precomp. You believe that creating your own home with the lights, building together something. Yeah, he's talking about the roots, but I'm saying that I'm not like this is a common thing. I'm not escaping anything by traveling.
Tommy:No, we're not saying that it's an exploratory thing Like I'm curious about the world.
Mike:No, I'm not saying you're escaping something, but it might be that you are escaping because of something. Yeah.
Vemir:Because of what? No, I'm not Like I know.
Toliy:I can't just say that.
Vemir:I can't for sure say anything right and prove that to you, but that's not like a way to like what are you?
Mike:looking for over there when you go over there. I'm genuinely passionate.
Vemir:I'm genuinely passionate. I'm good at languages. I'm genuinely passionate about different cultures. Food, so what's?
Eldar:the problem. So it's not a problem. It's not a problem. I said why did I?
Vemir:keep doing it. I actively seek it. Yeah, like I traveled to 12 countries last year. It's amazing. I'm very happy with myself. It's not to brag, it's not like it helps conversations because you can relate to other people, you can like talk about their experiences, you kind of understand different cultures a little bit more deeply. I feel like it's a more diverse, varied experience of life and it's nice to be able to adapt when you're in the Middle East, adapt when you're in Brazil. These are, I feel like a lot of people don't get it, but it's synchronized to my being Like I think it's natural to travel. A lot of people think it's unnatural to travel.
Mike:Yeah, the thing that keeps coming into my mind, playing back in my mind this is what I think is that, or I think maybe this is a theory. Have you figured out your life's purpose?
Vemir:President of the United States, maybe yeah, that's what. I always.
Mike:Have you really thought about?
Vemir:it. That's what I said as a kid to myself. It was clear as day and people have told me throughout the years this is egotistical, you can do anything except that Don't go into politics all the normal stuff. And it's like I don't really like saying it out loud too much because it seems like it's this ego approval seeking or whatever. But you ask me a question and I answer it.
Mike:But that's just like you're not really telling me. If you ask somebody else, maybe they'll give you. If you ask all their what's his purpose, or totally you're me, I'm not sure you're going to get an answer of this position.
Vemir:You're going to get a formula right.
Mike:I'm not sure I mean if you want to get asked.
Vemir:The thing is at this point what does that even?
Mike:mean? What does that even mean? To be president of the United States? What does that look like? Who are you?
Vemir:Who is that person? Who it is, who it is. Here's the thing I feel like, wait, you're serious.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, well, you weren't here for that one. He was not, yeah.
Vemir:You have to have a dream that's scary and sounds ridiculous. You know that.
Mike:Somebody put you on that you didn't know this.
Vemir:No, no, no, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. What do you mean?
Eldar:No, he's not aware of this. It's like a thing.
Vemir:No, now I know what we're getting into. Yeah, I'm not trying to do that, you're saying yourself off.
Eldar:You got to be very careful because some people are listening.
Vemir:Okay, cool. There's two things here. I understand that the ultimate purpose of life is to know your true self and the spiritual journey, knowing God, these kind of things, but it doesn't sound groundless enough.
Vemir:No, it does. I'm saying that it's not separate from your engagement with society. It's like if you put me 100%, it's definitely not separate. Okay, if I were to be in a role in society back in the day, if there was no United States or president, I would want to be probably a leader, and I think I have a lot of mechanisms and things in the dark side and shadow self and stuff to integrate and improve on in order to be that capable person. And I'll give you a lot of attributes. That would be cohesive. But you have to tell me if there's something that you feel is like a real illusion or just a yeah, but I think that you have.
Vemir:Everything's an illusion.
Toliy:But I think, if your goal is to be a leader, I think you have the number one quality possible to not be a good leader.
Vemir:What is it?
Toliy:Do you want to be a leader?
Vemir:No, I know that kind of common saying, but it's not. I feel like it's something I can add value without the ego aspect. Yeah, no shot, I mean. You don't have to believe it, though I'm saying that I have.
Toliy:I think the best leaders are appointed and not like.
Vemir:And I want to work so that it's a natural appointment, yeah but you don't have that though. I'm saying that's what I'm working for, you understand.
Toliy:Yeah, but you just said that you want to.
Vemir:No, I'm saying he asked me what's your purpose. I didn't say what I want to be. I said that's my purpose, a sign purpose. It felt like what is To be the president? If you took out president of the United States, it'd be like leader of a group, let's say, and this is like, it's like the mechanisms to be a good leader, not just to have that placement so you can write it on your resume.
Toliy:Yeah, but why?
Vemir:Because I feel like my natural attributes are conducive to that, Like I'm not a six foot tall basketball player type. Yes, so what? I'm someone who's intellectually curious, very social and wants to help people.
Toliy:Okay, yeah, but yeah, but so what?
Vemir:So, if you're intellectually curious, want to help people, and very social, there's a range of placements in society that could be conducive to that, and one of them is political leader, one of them is CEO, One of them is like this thing ties back, I guess, to me, the way you're saying it ties back to me, to that issue.
Mike:We had all the conversation last week. People set goals, right.
Vemir:I feel like this is a goal I didn't set, or like, well, you said you or my parents didn't set it.
Mike:Well, yeah, maybe, maybe let me finish. I think you'll understand what I'm trying to say. People set goals right the wrong way, in the sense that for you to become a president of whatever it should be a byproduct of who you are.
Mike:That's what I'm trying to Thank you If you're not working actively to be a person like, I guess that byproduct that will then create you to be this leader or be this person that you want to be, then that's why you don't have the purpose, because you actually have to find out what that actually looks like, how to become a byproduct of this type of person.
Vemir:So that's a better way to articulate it, because if I say I want to be this, this, this, this, the purpose is to get some sort of status, recognition or otherwise acclaim.
Eldar:So I feel like you matter in the world. You missed the last podcast. That's what, pardon me.
Mike:You missed the last podcast you did Okay. So then you asked I wasn't there when I was there.
Vemir:No, no, I'm saying like I don't. I feel like, how do I explain this? If I live my life properly, that will be the outcome. What does that?
Mike:mean.
Vemir:Do you know how do I articulate this?
Eldar:Have you given it a thought, if he checks all the boxes that he's set up for himself, he'll get there.
Vemir:I think you guys are on the premise that I definitely have the wrong goal.
Eldar:I don't care what the goal is Okay. So what I'm saying is I'm cool with it. I'm cool with you being the president.
Mike:We already said we'd vote for you.
Eldar:Thank you very much. I'm not going to change that just because I found out that you're not ready to lead a?
Vemir:claim.
Vemir:Make a little maniac or whatever it is. The gig is up Right now. I'm saying, like the point being is, I don't see my. I recognize directly with my intuition, which is the second most reliable mechanism after the scientific method, that I never dreamed of being a tennis player, never dreamed of being like a CFO, right, but something in me saw those archetypes when I was young and felt driven towards that and I think social programming actually told me to not pursue such a high ambition goal. And I'm trying to delete those things and feel that I can rise to the occasion. Right, and I think that nobody can see the pathway that I can see and it's naturally understandable until it happens that people will doubt it and ask why it exists and all those things, some things I feel like are just unexplainable. Right, like again, don't take this as a comparison because then it will go down the wrong path, but I was inspired by what Cassius Clay said. Right, he's just this guy in this village. And then he trained himself and believed and he could rise to the occasion.
Toliy:Just think like a butterfly and fly like a bee.
Vemir:Yeah, I mean just so. I feel like the procrastination is kind of like, maybe from a sense of duty, like if I, if I, party too much, I don't feel well, if I like it's not, it doesn't even feel like a guilt trip, it just feels like a natural mechanism to improve. And if there's some pathological thing in there, I want to uncover it. But if I, if I feel like my authentic being slowly rises and improves and like, imagine you are the one who, as a byproduct, is a good leader, they appoint you.
Mike:This is, I think, a good result. What does that look like? Tell me, have you thoroughly thought about that? You're a great problem solver.
Vemir:You know how to connect people who normally disagree with things and have them find common ground right. You want to help. You see things that people don't see right. You know you solve people's natural problems.
Tommy:What is?
Vemir:that person have Analytical skills, social skills, more awareness, kind of like a breath of knowledge, rather than like, for example, like a like a programming engineer all the way down doesn't know anything about this kind of stuff. So it's like the things I naturally like are conducive to these qualities. Like I like to travel, so I like to understand different cultures. This would be useful in international politics. I like to solve problems. It satisfies me that I'm solving problems that help people I'm interested in, like macro things, like astronomy is like a macro system, government is a macro system, philosophy is a macro system. So I did this analysis and then that's where the thing comes in is like how can I do more to become more of myself?
Vemir:For example, I like languages, so being good at two is good, but imagine being proficient, fluent reading literature like this is an advanced level of. It's like, for example, basketball. If you like basketball, you might stay here and then it kind of gets boring. For example, with languages, you might master or do well in Spanish, but then you want to go and learn literature, watch a movie and laugh at the jokes. You want to explore Russian literature or whatever else. So it's kind of an expansion of your existing competencies.
Mike:How does that encompass? A person who's going to be a byproduct of that person will be a president. Something that, if we talk about, especially if we're talking about your philosopher in the Socratic idea of a leader.
Vemir:So I think what you guys said a lot of times is I have to abandon the outcome and just work on the process, yeah, yeah, like being the farmer who they pull out of the farm to go into the White House.
Vemir:That's what you said, and I'm saying like I am trying to destroy the ego completely and see if it still comes up and it still does Like even though I had all the freedom in the world. I did a lot of this reflection on during COVID. I thought to myself, well, I could do anything in the world. You know I can go out, and a lot of it was, like we said, unsatisfying and I feel like when I. You know, this thing about something being fulfilling and satisfying is confusing because like a kid in a garden is six hours and he's fulfilled in that, but then a week later maybe he has to solve a problem and that garden experience was good, but it doesn't completely map onto that. So, in the same way, if I go and visit Morocco and I got the full cultural experience, it helps me in reality.
Vemir:But I think it's all part of reality, right, the joy of living and solving difficult problems. So it's like. You know anyway, how do I, like I do still feel today like even a person in my mechanism I'm saying me who isn't burdened by external illusions and these kind of things, still wants to.
Toliy:Wait, who is burdened by external illusions?
Vemir:Let's say that Vermeer is not burdened by external expectations, and all these things and people that I love have even reinforced it. Like, whatever you do, we just want you to be happy and fulfill all this stuff. I got all the all the backing to live whatever life.
Mike:They're giving you the backing, but you yourself, and I give myself the back.
Vemir:But I don't. I don't want to just stay in like the same house in Bergen County forever. That feels boring to me. My natural novelty seeking piece is very high, like some people. I think I talked to somebody like, was it Philip? I said, like I'm always seeking novelty and I enjoy the exploration, and they were saying I like to do the same thing over and over. Was that you totally over and over and over again? And so I thought to myself well, it's like what you said, like if it works. For me.
Eldar:It's not pathological, but I want to know if I'm avoiding something or if I'm like okay, cool, I'm trying to evaluate everything that you say anyway, and I'm having a hard time understanding like the difference, I guess, maybe like the different delusions, maybe maybe I'm delusional, right. For example, like you said, hey, I'm trying to find out whether or not I'm missing something, like when I make statements like this is will be the best podcast that anybody ever heard of. I believe it, and you know what the truth of the matter is. I'm not going around and asking people for permission, for permission or whether or not I'm missing something. I'm not missing shit, right? You know what I'm saying, because I don't know. I just have some kind of conviction inside of me that this is the truth of the matter.
Vemir:So I have that same internal conviction feeling.
Eldar:But you're curious about whether or not you're getting it wrong.
Toliy:That's my feeling is something that I've never seen from anybody else ever. Where, from from here? Okay, I've never seen either, or? But it's to me it's like a conundrum, because every time I'm thinking about what he's saying, the way he ends it off, like well, I'm only seeking perspective. Yeah, yeah, you see are you saying?
Eldar:that's a problem. That's the problem for me, the way I operate, the way I think about this. I'm going to be the president of podcasts. Bro, this is like inevitable.
Vemir:So you don't ask anybody for perspective. For what doesn't it help you improve?
Eldar:your process. Are you crazy? This is the best process. That's how I feel Okay.
Vemir:But I'm saying like they can sit in the same bucket, Like I can be curious about the best way to do it and still think that I will eventually reach that destination. Like I'm not saying that it's a bad goal, that I'm saying. I'm saying what do you guys think?
Toliy:I can hold that.
Vemir:I have a see, I have a hard time and I see what resonates, and if it doesn't resonate like anybody that told me that it's a bad goal, I immediately took that. It sounds like you're now.
Mike:I don't even consider that as the goal, You're unprepared for what it's going to take. You're like well, that's what I'm trying to improve on.
Vemir:I think procrastination is a barrier to me.
Eldar:I don't have procrastination. Procrastination on the podcast.
Toliy:Okay, like I don't have it, so no, but I feel like, for example, the, the, the, the hard experience that I'm having, like what, when it comes to, for example, like talking to him, yeah Right, is that I feel like he'll say something right and what he's saying to me is extremely arrogant, but then he ends it off with saying yeah, but he's open, and then, like in my mind it's like it does not sound like he's open at all, like to me it sounds like more has things figured out and he feels he's very, like, important, yeah, but then he ends it with I'm open to learning.
Toliy:And to me, it's in my head, it's like I don't understand. He put himself into prison and ate the key yeah. And to me it's like I've met people that are very arrogant yeah, and then they're. They don't even say that they're open to learning yeah, and then I've met people, maybe, who are open to learning but could use more like a more confidence. Yeah, yeah, more more confidence.
Eldar:Like how do you see my evaluation about how I feel about the podcast versus what he's saying about being the president? Like I already think that this shit is the best, so what's?
Vemir:the difference. That's like.
Mike:You know what I'm saying, and it is that I guess we have to explain it, but again, it comes back to the purpose. But also, eldar is setting his character, who he is and how he's going to live his life, and the podcast is a byproduct of who he is. I think it's the same thing with my career. No, it's not showing it, because you still are suffering with these things of procrastination. You're talking about patience. Therefore, your character, who are you going to be, is not fully developed yet. In order to live, a life like that.
Vemir:That's for the process, right, like it's the tension of progress. I'm just figuring out how to work on the process, but the problem is that I can't achieve the highest levels of what I'm doing.
Mike:You might be so convinced or attached to that end goal, You're forgetting to focus on what you think is the small details. But the small details are the big details.
Eldar:I agree. I've said this before I agree with you, and you said this before I agree with you. I am having fun, oh, but then you're procrastinating, so like it's a contradiction.
Vemir:No, I'm trying to break a bad cycle when I was a kid, when I didn't believe in myself.
Tommy:Oh okay.
Vemir:When I was in high school I doubted myself. I didn't know my purpose, but I really knew it. I was avoiding it and I felt like people had beaten me down so much and then it was suddenly resolved, like I had solved bullying by using humor and fighting back, never backing down and then I got them to laugh and kind of got them on my side. This was an effective mechanism. And then high school came and things were kind of like diplomatic but it wasn't exciting. I was very bored by the school system.
Vemir:I was burned out by the reward system of A's so I was kind of lost in that area and I was lost for a while and I feel like very much different than that guy 10 to 12 years ago. I feel like now, the doors open, I feel like I can do really anything I can't. I put my mind to if I jump into it and you know like I feel like I can eliminate whatever is not necessary and add and overcome depression and I kind of have that thing that David Goggins said the cookie jar. I have credentials as the things I've overcome and that gives me momentum of things I can keep changing and things like that. So what I'm saying is the time that I procrastinate is still a latent pattern, but I'm trying to kill that off.
Mike:Like I want to. That's part of it, but I think there's still other things where, like where do you guys see is?
Vemir:the delusion of what's wrong here.
Mike:I'm saying is that you're not setting the character that you are and you're still very swayable. No, even the thing like you're not convinced, like, hey, you have you like it, you like being social, but then you beat yourself up for, like, not being able to spend time alone. That shows another way where you haven't accepted your character. You're not solid in your character. Well, it is, it is, it's going to be a process for me to fully lean into my authentic self.
Vemir:That might take years, but but oh, it might take years. Am I okay with that you might not know.
Mike:I hope so.
Vemir:I hope so, I think that's not judging myself for the latent, emergent things that I want to kill off, realizing that that takes a long process and not being uncomfortable with not being fully there yet. So let me think about this Like I don't want to. I don't want to derail anything.
Toliy:Yeah, like I like. For me it's very hard in this kind of situation.
Vemir:Well, I, mean I'm fully confident about my ability to do really anything. I put my mind to.
Vemir:At the same time, I'm still considerate of people's perspective because it's very helpful and it allows me to improve my process and if I'm wrong I will change something. But that thing that I said like no one can talk it out and convince me God doesn't exist. God exists, the spirituality, rationalism tied in philosophy, all that journey, and I feel it viscerally, the source of being God, the universe, right, more awareness, consciousness. This is directly verifiable and anytime you veer off, go into illusions, this is dangerous and it leads to a bad life. This is like across all dimensions, right. So in the same way, I feel like my purpose feels very true and solid. It's just me understanding the mechanisms of it. I'm not claiming that I know, you know, all of the levels of enlightenment, but I do see that there is something there and I feel like there's a mysticism to life where I feel very confident and knowing of things and at the same time there's many gaps that I have to still fill in. So I understand it sounds paradoxical, just sharing my perspective.
Eldar:So you're not buying it.
Toliy:Yeah, I don't know what to say or do.
Vemir:Maybe it doesn't fit into your compartmentalization.
Eldar:So what's the difference between my thing and his thing? Then Mike answered it pretty well yeah.
Toliy:I mean, what is it? Yeah, he don't believe him. Yeah.
Eldar:I'm my delusional.
Toliy:What? Am I delusional? I don't know. If you're, to the outside eye, I would say you're probably delusional, okay, but you know my reasons. Well, that is, the thing is that I think that You're very good at explaining things. Okay, right. So I think that if someone gave you the opportunity to explain why you're saying what you're saying, things would make a lot more sense to that person that would first think that you're delusional. Okay, right. Yeah, I have a hunch. I don't believe that he believes what he's saying.
Vemir:Okay, so why, well, yeah.
Toliy:Can you explain your reasons? Yeah, I mean, I don't know, it's very hard to explain, but I feel like the combination of your sureness of things. So maybe I would say the biggest thing maybe is that what I see on the top of my head right now is that you're sure of yourself but you also believe that you're open, and I don't think that you're actually open and I think it's hard for you to convince yourself that you're not open.
Vemir:It's hard for me to convince myself that I'm closed and you believe that at my base I'm sure of myself, but you have already, guys, established that sureness is arrogance.
Toliy:Not always Okay so let's break this apart.
Vemir:If I destroy all doubt in myself, that doesn't mean that I'm an arrogant person. How would you destroy all doubt?
Eldar:Oh, what doubt are we talking about?
Vemir:He's saying that I am saying that I'm open, but he doesn't think I'm as open as I claim to be, meaning that when I ask people for perspective, I'm just looking, maybe, for validation of what I'm sure of.
Toliy:Yeah, like we probably have it there on camera, right, but that like little sequence that you just went through right, Like if you were to see what you like the way that you went about like what Mike said. You thought to yourself like a little bit and like what Mike said, about what the last thing that Mike said, and then you're like okay, like that, like you went through like a little process there. You think it's all fake. No, not all fake.
Eldar:You're saying that he's too smart for his own good. I don't know what that means. You say that a lot.
Vemir:That's really interesting, but I don't know what that means. Like you're saying I'm, I can't.
Eldar:I said that about you. Yeah, you said too smart for your own good. You said I can convince.
Vemir:you also said this that I can convince myself of pretty much anything the AI stuff, whatever else but the thing is like I also feel like sometimes my analysis gets in the way of me enjoying my life.
Toliy:For example, no, so so I, I, I. I might agree that it's it's the analysis, but I think it's. You probably have the wrong way of analyzing to begin with this. My probably probably.
Vemir:I think I've improved the analysis part of my life very strongly. Yeah, I think that I'm missing that. Yeah, like I feel like this just seems like an intuitional pull about you for me, he has a good radar, though, but it has a big nose.
Mike:Yeah, tell me what.
Vemir:I'm full of shit about I'll, I'll expose my whole heart. No, I think it would I?
Toliy:I? I think the honest thing thing here is that for this to be properly understood and explained, we'd probably need to spend a lot of time together.
Vemir:Okay.
Toliy:But I think which is valid. Yeah, okay, without doing that, I have close friends. It would be more intuition based.
Tommy:Okay.
Vemir:I think that's but your intuition matters.
Toliy:Well, it it. It matters to a certain to, to, to a very entry level, like a degree, but the explanation of it.
Vemir:So I mean, I feel like I proved you wrong. No, no.
Eldar:I actually think that over time, you'll find out that his logic will make sense, but it's going to take some time in order to see, like he said, certain examples and stuff like that in order to make it relevant more to explaining the condition that you're suffering from.
Vemir:But the thing is, it could be also another thing, which is that you might be accidentally clamping down something that's my childhood ambition, that I believe is possible, but you don't see it, do you understand? Like there's maybe no way I can translate my dream to you until it happens.
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, no, it's possible. Like I said, until, unless we spend a lot of time together, it would be very hard for you to understand what I'm saying.
Vemir:It would also be very hard for me to communicate what I'm saying to you, but I really want to understand like you're seeing attention, or like a, not a bifurcation, but like a diffusion of my energies and that's in some ways I'm very sure of myself. In some ways I'm very hard on myself, but it's like I just I feel like I want to.
Eldar:Lamir, you don't have to go for his intuition. You can just go for my logic if you want. There's certain things that I disagree with you about, certain things. You know what I mean. I think you are too hard on yourself.
Vemir:I think you do go into the whole discipline thing. Everybody says this across my life.
Eldar:Like I can. I can base my observation on why you are the way you are and the things that you separate from, based on the logical things and conclusions that I'm making, based on the things that you've said. Okay, so you know what I'm saying.
Eldar:It's very simple so what is the problem, though? I think that his whole thing is the culmination of those things that add up to his intuition, saying that, hey, like there's a reason why you are the way you are and what you're suffering from, and that you're not like what you really are.
Vemir:I just I went through a period of doubting myself and my abilities and it didn't work.
Eldar:Now I have you might have to. He might say you might have to go back there.
Mike:No, I'm saying now, I have zero doubts over time, like but not having doubt does that mean that you have the resources and the tools and the knowledge to get there?
Tommy:Like I think that you could be delusional about oh.
Vemir:I have no doubt I can get there. But oh yeah, if you think that, if you can't, if you can't don't, I believe that. I mean I don't think that. I also think that procrastination proves though yeah, yeah, I think that that's something that I have to overcome. I want to go overcome procrastination, but that proves your doubt.
Mike:But no, you should actually listen to the procrastination and see why it's there.
Eldar:That's why he's coining procrastination as your teacher right, why you're coining procrastination as your enemy.
Vemir:No, I'm saying that like I'm never fulfilled by the times that I procrastinate. Do you understand? Like I know what fulfillment looks like in some pockets and it does not exist when I'm in the YouTube passive. Why do you procrastinate? Because things are hard and it's hard for me to feel pain. I feel things very deeply and I feel progress very deeply too, and like I mean it could be a spectrum thing or something.
Toliy:So why do you procrastinate?
Vemir:Because it hurts when, I have to go to the gym, but when I'm at the gym, I feel great.
Toliy:Why does it hurt when you have to go to the gym?
Vemir:Because I've been lazy for years of my youth, because I wasn't satisfied by the school system. I think that's my analysis and that I love to learn. As a kid, I would pour through books without people asking me, but the education system programmed me to get the minimum requirement done and peace out, and I don't like that.
Vemir:And I'm trying to go back to the kid that read the Harry Potter books in one day. Nobody prompted me. Who figures out puzzles, Do you understand? Like it is a natural curiosity for me to learn, add value to people's lives, Like I get an ecstasy thing when I make someone laugh when I have a good social relation. There is a dark side to that.
Toliy:Is that I get?
Vemir:uncomfortable when there's tension or like I like to resolve conflict and I've found many mechanisms to do that. But it's like now. I'm sensitive but I'm also well equipped to resolve conflict. So it's like my sensitivity has. I was too weak maybe earlier, now I'm stronger and still sensitive. You understand like I. Just I feel it deeply when things are hard and I'm trying to learn how to become like a strong in that sense.
Toliy:Yeah, I feel like you have a PTSD, maybe, to like the unknown, stemming from when you were a kid.
Vemir:Well, there was a lot of anxiety, yeah.
Toliy:And I feel like you maybe have set up your yeah, yeah.
Eldar:How did you extract that? And he agreed to it. That was beautiful. What? How did you extract that?
Toliy:Because I like, like you listen to this, I mean missing, like to me very clearly, but it's also again, it's very hard to make like firm, definitive stances without getting to know him more and without him getting to know me more.
Vemir:So let me do one more olive branch.
Toliy:But look my everything he's saying to me like a vibe I get, for example, from Vamir is that I think that he has yeah, he has PTSD from like not knowing something or being unsure, right, and I feel like that state to him is a very scary. How did it come about?
Vemir:to that, because a lot of people put doubt in me when I was younger. Do you understand the mechanism Like I'm giving you? He wants to know, he has. I want to know everything, about everything.
Toliy:Exactly Right, but it's not like this. But in that process I think it's probably built too much arrogance to actually know, know everything.
Vemir:I'm trying to erase this one thing.
Eldar:Feeling like a revenge tour.
Vemir:Well, partially yeah, I mean that's partially true of like the comeback underdog thing. Like I dropped out of school because of physical condition. My eczema was so bad and I had what's it called food poisoning and mono and so I left college after two months and I just couldn't take the workload at home and all the physical stress and that put me into a depression. That felt like a failure. It's like one part maybe I didn't explain and then I went back to Bergen and it was a slow process, but then I went into NYU and it was a huge, amazing learning that I never would. I didn't really know what I was doing at the end of high school, so from that confusion it got to a point and then I learned it was more authentic of a path. I mean I'm saying this trying to kind of work out how to describe it as I'm talking, but it's like in that instance I feel like whenever I went like what I wanted to say earlier which tell me if this is relevant to what I just said, my analysis paralysis is a force feeding momentum of negative self doubt and stuff.
Vemir:When I take action, I'm usually doing it right. Whenever, I don't hesitate approaching a girl. Whenever I don't hesitate saying something interesting or out of pocket, whenever I don't hesitate in pushing back, establishing boundaries, whenever I don't hesitate in whatever I feel like, it rejuvenates me In soccer. It's the most clear in soccer Whenever I do the thing I want to do and I get ahead of my analytical brain, it just works naturally. I'm fluid, I can learn, I can play, I get into the right space, it's all that good stuff. I think when I analyze too much the weaknesses it can get me into a depression. Anxiety can cause depression in that kind of valley. So me fighting against that and being engaged with life allows me to prevent me from kind of atrophying in a way.
Eldar:Because I've seen that happen before?
Vemir:Is that anything? It is everything.
Eldar:It sounds like everything.
Toliy:I definitely don't want to be depressed again. So that's one thing. One of the biggest issues I see is that because he maybe has invested the time to learn a bunch of things, yeah, like like oh sure. He double fucked him so well. Yes, but mainly because I think I like learning his life. He's the smartest person in the room, yeah.
Vemir:Well, okay, he has to be.
Toliy:No, based on the based on the conclusion he made when he got hurt. Yes, that's why I said for us to have a conversation around this and him to understand me, we would have to spend time yeah, time, time, time together, because that would be the only way to to kind of like a lower the arrogance down and and to humble him Like I. I, for example, like, if I come to work every day, like I'm significantly overall dumber than you, I think, right.
Toliy:Right Over over over, over all, like I'm significantly dumber, right, so I feel like every day and I'm dumber than Mike in a lot of things, right, right, and I think, in general, I, I, I, I feel like we maybe have a better opportunity to actually learn and find out the truth about things, because I think that we surround ourselves, like around people who I think we do have inclination that they're smarter on certain things than we are, but that gives us the opportunity to to, I think, to have a better like, a like, a better way to like learn in a better relationship.
Eldar:But that's because you just yet have discovered the ability to become a good student, which was a different topic and a different episode, which, if you do twin into, then you don't have that struggle. But yes, I agree with you.
Mike:But I I what you're saying is that he's not willing to kind of get to the top with other people's help. He wants to do it on their backs, kind of like, you know, step on them while he's getting to the top.
Tommy:Like to prove them wrong.
Toliy:Well, I mean the, the, the, the proving wrong. I feel like it's like, like, like it's probably a childhood trauma from feeling a certain way and getting put down a certain way which that was true, but it's less now I definitely had that myself right.
Toliy:Like I always wanted to play in the basketball team, I wanted to do this. I had a speech impediment. I was always afraid to read in school. I mean there, there, there was like a bunch of things that I wanted to do, that I felt like I couldn't. And when playing basketball, when getting older, when getting, I guess, better right, I always had the revenge toward that. Like I wanted to shit on everybody. Everybody's going to understand I'm better, you're worse and you're going to clearly feel, feel this from all those years younger when you felt it was the opposite in the way that you treated me. I wanted to have that revenge, or over people, specifically over, probably, people that were much more athletic than me. I, I, I mean and now I sometimes get joy from doing better than somebody while not being, for example, like physically gifted or like you know different things, things like that Like it makes it more interesting to me.
Vemir:but I mean, I have one more thing to share to your point. Like I had this mechanism, a lot Like I wanted to prove everybody wrong because they made fun of me, or like it came from there in security, of course. But it was like then I started seeing people do better than me and I thought what is wrong with me that I can't get there? And then I completely crashed, like during the COVID. Like COVID was actually a good time for me. I kind of locked into what I wanted to do.
Vemir:I was working on some nice projects, but I had like long COVID. I had medical issues, a lot of different stuff we can talk about some privately. But I had probably a manic episode Like I just cracked, and so I hit my actual rock bottom. And that's when I was the most, maybe the first time I was ever vulnerable in my life to the whole world. Like I couldn't hide my suffering anymore. I used to be able to hide by suffering. So when I was in my vulnerable state it was almost like I described. You ever had that fantasy of like if I was in the hospital in a car accident, God forbid who would visit me. I found out who was there for me and who wasn't genuinely like. That's now clear to me. So I realized from being vulnerable that nothing you don't lose really anything. You just gain the right people. You know who actually cares about you and you realize that you're human. And that took me down a notch but it now allows me to rise up and grow without the ego thing being there as much anymore.
Vemir:When someone gives me a compliment, like a genuine admiration from a close friend I have a friend I've been friends with for 20 years, right, and I have other friends who I think are smarter than me, who also give me some points of admiration and real criticism, and I think there are some examples. But the point there is like I feel like whenever I'm given a compliment, now I feel like it's real. Before it felt a little bit in the gray zone. Now I feel like I'm more being. What I'm telling you now is what I actually believe, like I'm trying not to lie to myself anymore and it's because nature took me down a notch at that point. So I don't know if that's helpful, but it's like now the revenge towards over, it's more of like the being honest with yourself and realizing that you're given a second chance. God put you here for a reason Do it, don't waste your time. That's the like I feel, like I've been given life in a way, rather than me thinking like.
Vemir:Sometimes I do get concerned because I used to think like I'm losing time, losing time, losing time. But when I'm in my right mentality I think it's so good that I got this good experience, that I was gifted another experience, and it gives me motivation to do more of that and get more of that. You know, it's like you kind of have to catch me sometimes on. You know how full I feel like my day was.
Vemir:The only times I get really self-conscious around other people is when I feel like I didn't do during the day what I felt was right for me, like I avoided something, I didn't put my full amount of hours into what I needed to do, or I promised myself something I would do it and I didn't do it, and I felt like I could do it but I took the easy route or something like that. So I feel like I'm trying to break away that, you know, comfortable, lax thing. It's like I feel like I'm more of a hyperactive, engaging person, but I know the overclocking, like the RPM. If it goes too much, I can go crazy, I can like burn myself out. So that happened. Now I'm thinking how do I sustainably grow and, as a natural consequence, that helps other people.
Toliy:But based on what I'm hearing, I feel like my opinion is that for you to probably actually, I think, like grow in the way that maybe you're thinking in your mind for that to actually play out that way, I probably think that you need to visit those childhood dramas you had and probably start from there, but I think that you maybe have created this more productivity like police lifestyle to probably avoid going back there because it's very painful.
Eldar:I mean, I feel like the points of that are true in that, like I feel, I think you made certain wrong conclusions from those PTSD moments and I think that he'll liberate himself if he went back there.
Toliy:Yeah, I mean, he has a hard time with the unknown, so he tries to surround his life in the very known. And it's much easier to do that, I think, when you're the smartest person in the room.
Vemir:Well, whenever I don't know, whenever I'm in that unknown, I just pray and I give up myself to God and my faith and that kind of rejuvenates my confidence.
Toliy:He feels, when he's in the unknown, that he's stripped completely of power and he can only resort to praying.
Vemir:I definitely. I leave it up to the higher order of the universe and then it works.
Toliy:You see, that to me is probably the biggest issue.
Vemir:That's not an issue, though. It works Like it actually works, like I trust it, and then it solves my problem. But I think that's more to be experienced than for me to kind of describe it Like the only thing I have is my connection to God. I don't have status, I don't have my health, I have no family, nothing without that connection. And I realize that the farther dark you go, the worse it gets, and the closer you get to your source, the easier and more fluid and beautiful life gets. And doubt comes from the illusions in your mind. That's why they call it the devil and stuff talking your ear, because it's all those things that are illusions trying to convince you to go into negative self-stuff. But I realize it's actually like you battling it, but eventually you not taking those things seriously and over time you realize that your connection simplifies everything. It allows you to navigate the world a little bit easier. It's like a good, it's a better formula, and I realize that directly and that's why some things feel unexplainable, because I realized back then I was an atheist, I was a doubter, I didn't believe stuff that my dad told me then, that he tells me now and I'm like I get it and that's through experience. So if that resonates or not, that's up to you. But you know, I recognize that I don't know everything and then I leave it up to God's process.
Vemir:Do you know the original term like religious? People ask me if I'm like religious or not and I say what do you mean? And they say are you a part of religion? I said that's not what religious means. Religious is like being a seeker of the ultimate truth. Right, it's like. In that sense I'm absolutely religious. Einstein was religious. But it's like religious in terms of being attached to a dogma. Forget that. Like that's not who. I don't think that's conducive.
Mike:You know, so I try to incorporate all the truths from those things you know like and you think when they made that statement, curiosity kills the cat they knew they were talking about me right now. All good stuff.
Eldar:Totally anything else before we wrap this up.
Vemir:I also didn't want to clamp down on the other things you guys want to say. It's just sharing my perspective.
Eldar:No man, why do you have to like justify yourself, because I feel like we got quiet at the end. Is that a bad thing in your thing? No, no, I just want to acknowledge that.
Vemir:Yes, I kind of like that silence at the end when I finished. That was pretty nice Listen.
Eldar:I think that curiosity is definitely a pathway to us to liberating ourselves from a lot of the things that we prematurely conclusions on. You know what I mean. I think curiosity is that adventure that you can take in your own mind without moving, going anywhere. But here, you know what I mean. I think it's like to me at least it's very empowering and it's reaffirming certain a lot of things that I think about, you know, like random things that I think about, that I can take on and just enjoy myself thinking about, you know.
Mike:Curiosity, when engaged properly, is definitely very empowering because you, in a way, you assume the role of a student right 100%. You're not even aware that you're a student, but which is, in a way, a student. Sounds like not a very empowering role, but it is because you're free of that arrogance or that ego for knowing Curiosity, needs awareness and needs humility, which is an interesting thing.
Eldar:Yeah, and I think that if we practice that mindfully right, like I said, I think that we can 100% get to our purpose.
Vemir:Yeah, so you're saying curiosity is a North Star to who you are and what you need to do Really?
Eldar:yes, because ultimately, right through curiosity, you find out what's the most fun that you can have at any given point and if you can always turn to that, it'll probably define who you are, which then, in a result, tell you your purpose. You know what I'm saying and to apply it to me, for example, just to give you an example, I'm very curious, or like to see why people think the way they do, and then, obviously, through questioning, right which I learned from Socrates and other philosophers right, it gets me to that point of wonder where, long enough of paying attention, I get to understand what's actually going on and that makes me feel really good. And a lot of times I have the ability to have fun by using wordplay in the whole process and therefore I'm enjoying myself again. So the whole process is kind of never ending and never going, because I'm always learning.
Eldar:It's always interesting, it's always different perspective, even though it's the same person. Right, we can say, hey, like this guy's suffer from the same thing, but it's a different door, it's a different outfit, and so still nonetheless very interesting. You know what I mean when it comes to that, and we have countless examples every single day in our office right To how people act and why they act and to explore that, to genuinely find out what's behind it. To me, that shit is fucking amazing. It's a crazy thing, you know, and I love it.
Vemir:And these exercises are very reaffirming. Sometimes we come in and we're confused. Sometimes we come in and we share ourselves and get more confused, but like this can bring us back to ourselves, like when we get out loud confirmations of alignment. That's really helpful.
Tommy:Yeah, yeah. So what about?
Vemir:wonder. Just really quickly I was going to ask. You said Socrates, like what about wonder? Without doubt? Is that what?
Eldar:curiosity is so how does that look to you? Can you explain that to me?
Vemir:Let's see if I I think a child is curious without having doubts, which is an interesting combination.
Mike:How I don't understand the doubt portion.
Vemir:I'm not sure how it's.
Mike:Like where does he have doubt?
Vemir:Just relative to me. You're saying like sometimes I'm very sure of myself, but also open, and that seems to be somewhat of a paradox. But that's different.
Toliy:It seems to be when someone is truly curious, they're wondering and learning but they're not doubtful of no, but I was saying that I don't think they're open.
Vemir:Yeah, I know, but I'm saying like someone who is Ultimately yes, okay, okay. So someone who is Am I open?
Eldar:In my statement about the podcast, I'm not open bro.
Toliy:Yes, I don't know.
Eldar:It's a very weird combination, because to me Like my statement about the podcast versus his statement about being the president right.
Mike:If you took out the factor. There's a big factor there.
Toliy:Well, that, but I feel like, what is it? I feel like you're sure but I feel like when you say that, you make it known like almost like. See, it's like you say that, but at the same time you make it known, without making it known, that you were open to what's called the challenge as to why not.
Eldar:Yeah, because I 100% believe this. I back myself 100% of this.
Toliy:But you don't have to let people know that you're open to the challenge.
Vemir:Okay, that would mean that you're saying I'm saying it in a way that I need a confirmation, and I think that I'm breaking the validation comes probably from the childhood traumas of not having it then and then wanting it now.
Vemir:Well, you can't. This type of interesting purpose cannot be confirmed until it happens, like when you're young. It cannot exist. I mean, I was president of my high school, but that means only a little bit right. So it's like I think some things take a lot of time and I believe, aside from my own proclivities and current weaknesses, that over time my doubts will go away and I'll kind of confirm myself through experience. How did doubts come about? Doubts come about from you failing to live up to your own character. Yeah, but I'm not.
Eldar:Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Okay, here you go. That's a very good answer and let me build on that. I even though I'm doing this as this is like a free flowing thing, this is not something that's set in stone or I put in my head and this is how it's supposed to be, and I supposed to look up to this and meet these benchmarks and goals and stuff like that. My shit has opened in, bro, but nonetheless, I feel very accomplished, I feel very good and I also enter the future projecting the fact that I'm going to be the best. That's how I actually feel. But if he's operating out of certain benchmarks, I see how those things are closing him and giving him certain doubts. My shit is doubt free, bro.
Vemir:There's no doubt here Interesting, so I think I wanted to just hone in on this really quickly. One thing that really worked for me is my previous definition of what that guy looks like, and then today what it is Actually. Donald Trump and Joe Biden helped me. They broke the mold of me thinking this is some supreme, pristine person. These people are extremely flawed, and so what I told you about? Did you not know this?
Eldar:before. No, how about President Bush?
Mike:What about Billy? I didn't yeah like.
Vemir:Monaco. Really, guys, I didn't have the awareness, I was too young.
Eldar:Oh, okay, okay, oh yeah, you were younger, that's right.
Vemir:And also there is a contradictory thing there too, and I don't want to confuse you. When I saw Barack Obama's inauguration speech in 2008, I was 12 years old I was in the lab in middle school. I thought she was going to say Wuhan. I was in the Wuhan lab working on level 4 security. I looked at his speech and nobody. I didn't even say that loud. I said to myself I can do better than that. That's not even a great speech, and who the fuck thinks of that when they're 12? So it's like Anyway.
Mike:I have a lot of fun. You provided yourself with a lot of compelling evidence, am I? Yes, I'm saying, you provided yourself with a lot of compelling evidence Right right right confirmation I mean but.
Toliy:But the whole point is that he can turn tuna fish into wine, right yeah?
Vemir:well, thank you. I don't like tuna fish, though I was like. I was like what's it called? So in the same way, I'm thinking at the time I thought of perfectionism and this is a realization I'm having in real time is what I was describing to him applies to me very strongly is that in order to be at my highest level, I actually have to be authentic, and all of those mistakes happen so I can be kind of at the level of not thinking I'm above people to become a leader, in that I dropped below where most people would go and I have examples of what that means. But it's like Someone told me very smart people need to be knocked down once and always happens. So I got knocked down worse than I thought I could and I came back. That's both confidence building and humility.
Toliy:How many times are not smart people need to get knocked down?
Vemir:I don't know. I don't know, maybe some people need to be knocked over the head forever.
Eldar:Why would? What's his name?
Vemir:But they're not contradicted.
Eldar:Why would a king be meddling in peasants?
Vemir:affairs. But that's not applying to me, like I'm not thinking of myself. Before I feel like the goal was the revenge tour being better and I have to be this perfect guy who knows every single facet of everything. Now I feel like my authentic journey is just preparing me, in that there's nothing left except me wanting to improve and be my highest self, and the natural bribe product, I think will be that, because that's what I felt in my purpose.
Vemir:Natural bribe product is not bringing me to the tennis courts. It's not bringing me to be a carpenter, even though I like amateur carpentry. It's like a sections of things that I feel like are hobbies, like surfing, and sections that feel like purposeful. So I don't even care about drugs. I don't even care about even the casual sex thing I've been letting go recently. It's just things changing. So what the original point was like, I feel like my definition of a president has been erased. It's changed completely, like what a good leader has changed, because I was naive before and now I feel like it's almost like success now is normal. Before it felt like a mountain decline.
Vemir:Now you want to be in the position where success is redefined. Success is redefined. That's not necessarily a good thing, but I feel more authentic now than I did before. I don't think I could look you guys and I and say this before, because I would be putting on something.
Eldar:If the bar of success has been lowered and you align yourself more to it, but you have not progressed. I think you committed a crime.
Vemir:Do you? Are you saying that I haven't progressed or I don't think I'm not saying?
Eldar:that if this happened to you, right, based on your own assessment, you said hey, like Donald Trump, you know what I'm saying like I thought it was a lot higher, you know, like I can definitely do this, right, but you haven't really progressed to be better, right even to Donald Trump or even higher. And you like this bar ain't shit, I can jump over that easy.
Vemir:What I'm saying is that I feel like earthly affairs have been lowered to an achievable level. The spiritual journey is still very much. That's the thing I'm not sure if they haven't been lowered.
Eldar:Actually, you know, like if a philosopher actually paid attention right to each and every single president, you quickly find out that these individuals are very mortal.
Vemir:And I think I was. I had a certain complex around that one thing.
Eldar:I put the because of your own attachments right.
Vemir:So I'm saying like I feel like it's a self serving thing, like my priority is now higher. It's like trying to or, like you know, paying attention to the divine experience and through that I can still achieve my earthly goals. You know, I'm saying like it's not, it's not to get the girl, to get the car, to get the status, it's to. This feels like I can actually add value in a significant way and that feels more meaningful and persistent than before for me to prove to everybody that I am the president. Do you know what I mean? Like, once you let go of the goal in the wrong way, you get it in the right way. So it's like you are doing the podcast, because every time you do it you enjoy it. So I think, improving the skills that I described earlier, if I could, enjoy.
Eldar:It is going to be a natural for me, natural progression, that slowly I will chip away at the things that make a podcast better right be the headphones, for example, right be it our audio quality, be it our promotion and stuff like that and because of the fact I'm genuinely interested and genuinely curious about it. It's not true. The natural process occurs where I out how, run out last out stamina, anybody who's doing a podcast to make money. This is like. This is not.
Mike:This is a non issue here for me, so you know and when it comes to my competition, that is very closely tied with your philosophy about your own life and life in general. Yeah, and I think that is the big factor here.
Vemir:I think that before my, this thing was so what is it like? Manipulated or distorted, that I had this horrible concept about it and it failed me. And now I feel like I have a more accurate reality of what I should be doing at 27, almost 28 in my life, like I'm not thinking that much about building a family yet. I'm not thinking that much about momentary pleasures.
Mike:As much now I'm feeling about building my career and purpose and focus when you're, when you're like setting this bar, comparing this bar like what is the thing that you're comparing it to, like what is the?
Vemir:this is the thing, it's the authentic path. Now, my path is has not been trailed before. In my way, like a lot of people you know, I feel like become maybe lawyers or they do, now it's businessmen or they were in the military and I feel like my unique path can have a unique outcome in terms of if I go this path authentically. You know, maybe I'll pick up biology on the way, but a lot of it will be social interaction, problem solving and kind of the international focus and I think that could be and I'm trying to learn like and I have learned from people who are much better than me at their own field that you can learn from every experience and but you should have sold vast.
Eldar:It gives me anxiety, bro but it's also exciting.
Vemir:You can transmute that into excitement listen, if that's what you're transmuting.
Eldar:More power to you, bro. This is giving me anxiety. I think it's just like the way I'm wired is a hyper excited person then, like I said, if it, if this is what drives you, more power to you, but me. I am looking for the I'm sorry good to me where I'm standing, from where I'm looking at it, it's like it's painful but I don't feel like I'm compensating for pain anymore, like you're procrastinating this is like I feel, like you know there's a reason for that.
Eldar:Failure to launch is a real thing, but you're experiencing like you can't start, you can't focus, you can't have direction, you can't continue, you can't keep going well, I'm building momentum.
Vemir:Oh okay, is that fair? No why not for totally. Well, if you're coming from rock bottom, you have to build the pieces back up okay, I mean to hit like I said.
Eldar:Yeah, it works for you yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Toliy:If he, if he's saying that this method is working, is it works well for him?
Eldar:I mean, that doesn't say yeah, there's a subject, then we go into a subjective realm where it's like okay, cool, like then, if it works for you and you're happy, more power to you. Yeah, we're, objectively we.
Toliy:I think that we can objectively look at it and I don't know, I don't think we can objectively jump over the hoops that you subjectively say, that you don't have you hold. You're not holding yourself in a to a high enough standard that you think you are like, like, for example, someone could be acting angry right and you and and you're looking at them you're like yo like this person's angry right, and you ask me like no, I'm not angry yeah, I mean, what's next?
Vemir:okay, so that's why I asked the questions is to reveal something that I'm not aware of myself.
Tommy:That's the openness part yeah, but I'm not doubting that.
Vemir:I can't change it. I think yeah, but I believe strongly I can change anything in order to improve.
Toliy:I don't. I have no like, I have no evidence. I guess, based on your behavior so far, that you are open mm like I don't see it you know, that's interesting, I mean.
Tommy:I feel, like.
Toliy:I'm a good listener and I can decrypt what someone's trying to say and then I can say something on that, and a closed person would not be a good listener yeah, I don't know, like I feel like you keep saying things that like you're good at or that you can do, but I don't think that that makes you good at them, like what. Like you're saying that you're a good listener, right, right, like I don't feel that you're a good listener from just from my observations.
Vemir:So so you give example because this is an important part you are pretty short with Tommy.
Eldar:I am he's more combative than other people.
Vemir:But that doesn't mean I'm a bad listener, because I am, because I cause friction right.
Toliy:I guess, like it's hard to give specific examples, might like it's like a yeah, I would say just like it's my overall like observations of how you carry yourself and how you act. I feel like that you show that you know more and listen less, like that, that's the overall thing.
Vemir:I mean I do recognize that some people I am short with and not, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Toliy:Yeah, but the hard part for me to understand is, like it's it's not so often that you meet someone that acts that way but then says that they're open.
Vemir:Right. I mean I'm open to listening, but I'm not opening to like doubt. What I know is true. From my experience, you know what I'm saying. Like I have to defend what I see is true unless something better comes out. Yeah, you definitely should. So is there something wrong with that? Like you're saying that's? That's like a. I think that's a deadly combo. It's very good, like you should be open, but you should reject anything that sounds like BS. That's why people think I'm often like like like I don't start arguments anymore just to have an argument's sake. But if I see something's wrong and a lot of times I do notice some bullshit is being said a lot in life I speak up. So I speak up a lot. Some people find that combative, but I don't find that as against you. That's against the idea, because I believe that if I'm presented with a new idea, I will change, but I'm not going to like coddle bad ideas. That's something that people find controversial. Is that fair?
Eldar:Yeah, I think we share that belief.
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, that's not. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Eldar:older or no. Well, aside from, like I said, maybe maybe he, maybe his assessment of Tommy, for example, was a little bit off. That he continued the conversation when he shouldn't have, I think was a little bit off. So I think he didn't really listen to actually what was happening. If you actually paid attention.
Toliy:Well, yeah, that's the only thing that kind of gave me, like no, but I'm saying in general do you agree with what I'm saying? That he's a bad listener? Well, yeah, for example, starting from there, no, I think he's okay.
Eldar:He's not a bad listener. No, I met a lot worse. Oh sure, you know what I'm saying I met a lot of people. Yeah, no, he's definitely not. I wouldn't categorize him as bad. You know, I think he has a lot to say and because he has a lot to say, I think he has a lot to share. Therefore, a lot of times maybe he'll drown out.
Mike:I think you mean maybe that's very true.
Vemir:I definitely feel the like when someone's talking. Sometimes I need to get a thought out yeah, yeah, that doesn't. That's something I think I can. I often try not to forget things. My mom has that. So, yeah, I think that's parallel with good listening.
Mike:I think maybe you meant like the way I'm interpreting it is that you may be saying he's a bad listener, because part of being a good student is the ability to listen and if you're not open to listen, you know, I think I don't think that you could just say that, like you're a good listener, like, like to me, it's like I mean it's useless, right, I think people or someone that says they're like they're very smart, right, I think people show that they're very smart.
Toliy:Or people show that they're Well, you just like the fact that people make certain like statements about themselves maybe like part of the statement shows that you don't understand it. Well, yeah, you negate it.
Eldar:Yeah, I get it, I get it.
Vemir:Well, I mean okay, I won't self describe, but I think if you say I'm a bad listener and I disagree, I have to combat that with something.
Eldar:That's true. Yeah, I mean you have at least some evidence to say like hey, this is where I'm like you didn't give me an example of why I'm a bad listener, so I can't.
Vemir:You can just say I feel like you're a bad listener is the same thing as me saying I feel like I'm a good listener?
Toliy:Yeah, I feel like.
Eldar:I think he can listen if he wants to, that's for sure.
Mike:I think I'm sure I don't know, I think. I agree with you. No, no, no, it's so funny.
Vemir:It's so funny and I really wanted to listen to him and I got burnt out Probably. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
Mike:I really didn't have the courage to be humble.
Vemir:That's the way you said something right? I want to say that part.
Mike:Like again the student, the humility thing, that could be a thing where you mean maybe if that's what you mean, then I would agree with that Like, yeah, that's like you may be listening, but you're too arrogant or whatever, to actually take the other person's opinion. You're so confident in your ways that you're no chance that you're wrong about what you're, what you're being challenged in on the things that I'm confident about.
Vemir:I wouldn't call that listening.
Tommy:Yeah.
Mike:I guess I would call that listening, but your ability to challenge yourself and question yourself and to see if you're like on the wrong path.
Eldar:But if he has strong convictions, I don't think he has that ability. That doesn't come in.
Mike:Right, that's what I'm saying, and he's saying that he does have strong conviction, which I agree, yeah.
Eldar:And therefore the listening comes a little harder.
Mike:Yes, that way then we agree which is sure.
Toliy:Yeah, then I think suffering will be the next Okay.
Vemir:No, I don't think so. I think the things that I'm solid about are things that have given me. I understand what he's saying now. Okay, so like I have a main dish but you guys can help me with the side dishes, and then there's some parts of the main dish that I might consider, but I'm pretty solid because for 40 years it's been delicious.
Toliy:That's what I'm saying. That's why, then, the only teacher will be suffering. But here's the problem. Yeah.
Vemir:I have analyzed to death the main dish and it didn't work.
Eldar:The thing is you wanted an impression. No, no, no. That's the thing you wanted an impression, and you appointed yourself to that.
Mike:Yeah, I don't know what you mean. You cannot be the doctor and the patient at the same time. Like I had this big thing with them right, where it was like a kind of a huge moment, where I was like electing myself to be competent in areas that wasn't competent. And until I fired myself and said, hey, or believe that, hey, I don't know, I'm not competent in this, and said, hey, guys, I'm going to say a bunch of shit, let me know if it makes sense and challenge me along the way. Challenge me because I could be under the wrong impression about many, many things. And until I was able to, like you know, be humble there and ask for help, to say that, like to be honest about my own incompetence, then until then I was just arrogantly running a muck, thinking I was under the right impression, right, and suffering from your experiences.
Eldar:And suffering.
Mike:Yeah, and not learning and not learning yeah.
Vemir:Okay, so I mean that is very interesting. It's a very fair point. I just feel, like the what's it called, the things, that this is also to your guys's point, which is about spending more time together.
Mike:Who are you checking your theories against? Are you using a credible source? If you're using you as the guy who's in the prison and the guy who has the key, how do you trust anybody here?
Vemir:The thing is like I know I know all of my life, you guys know a portion of my life and I often don't talk about my life Like unless someone asks me. And I like when people ask me because I have a lot of really cool, interesting stuff to share. But honestly, I don't talk about my life unless prompted, usually Leaving a large gap of people about my life, which is a benefit. Sometimes it's mysterious, some things come as a good surprise and stuff like that. So I haven't maybe given you guys enough of my resume for you to believe me, and I kind of like that because it comes as a surprise. But I feel like perhaps you can hide for just so long. I know, but I don't feel like I'm hiding. I feel like I'm trying to work out dark mechanics out in the open and then my successes are just happening. Yeah, what do you think about, like your process? When I ask about procrastination, it doesn't mean that the whole foundation has to go away too.
Eldar:The only thing I'm across is that you're curious, but you're not. You know what I'm saying, so you're masking it.
Vemir:Well, I'm more anxious and stuff than I need to be. I think I should be more confident than I am.
Eldar:Like your judgment, for example, about saying, hey, like, I was supposed to do X, y and Z, but instead I was just cleaning the kitchen and like I was stalling time or whatever, and you're like, see, that's what we can, if you actually allowed us right, we can challenge you and say, hey, like, why do you make? Put importance on one thing versus the other? Right, where you might say, hey, like, but me doing X, y and Z is much more important than cleaning the kitchen and, as we can evaluate here, it's just saying no, like they might hold the same value. Or even cleaning the kitchen for your mom, for example, is of a great service, but you yourself, being yourself up over there, you know because you've set out certain goals to go against and guilt yourself afterwards. You know because you didn't accomplish something.
Vemir:Well, it feels like an ADHD thing, like like you avoid important tasks until you're pressured to do them. Because I need to feel the pressure of time to get stuff done. So I give myself a lot of time and then I do it at the end, which is not healthy. Sometimes you need to do stuff ahead of time. Well, yeah, that's that.
Eldar:Those are just some mechanism I'm trying to work through. Well, there you go. That's what I'm saying. That the reason why you have those in the way you justify them it's almost what I think he's talking about that you're not actually listening to what we're saying is that we are telling you that they're not actually listening to what we're telling you that the indicators that you actually are doing something wrong and therefore should not continue unless checked or re-evaluated. Right, but because you like? No, no, no, but these are my processes and this is the way I do it. I have really good explanations.
Tommy:I get what you're saying.
Eldar:Then this is the part I think he might be saying that you're actually not listening to what is being said.
Vemir:But I don't. I'm trying to figure out what the layer under procrastination is as a guide, without removing my entire character, which I don't feel like is necessary. I think that's what you're probably scared of. I'm not afraid, because I've explored that for too long and it didn't work. Like trying other pathways. I kind of feel the scale of how much fulfillment is in this amount of time.
Eldar:Yeah, that's why I think that if you attach yourself to this particular process, then you should see it through, and that's probably going to be the most empowering one.
Toliy:Yeah, and that's why I said at that point suffering will be the teacher, if needed. Yeah.
Vemir:And that only happens now, when I procrastinate what I want to do and I don't have the I need to build the mental fortitude to take action so then why are you a masochist? Because it's like a, it's a bad habit. It's like five minutes is very painful and then the next three hours of doing it is not painful. It's just the first mechanism. You guys know what I'm talking about. You want to go to the gym, but it's a long time before you get your shoes on and go.
Eldar:No, and then you go and you're happy. No, no, yeah, and that's exactly what you're talking about. I think the process of this exercise, in the I mean the purpose of this exercise in the first place, this mental exercise is to be able to derive a conclusion where you don't have to have those five minutes.
Vemir:So how do I? How do I fix that? So, like I'm trying to think of how to explain it better, because I don't want to which.
Eldar:I. I think we're trying to do the same.
Toliy:Yeah, so I have a feeling that this, this idea you have right now, will burn out eventually. Which idea? The idea that you have right now?
Mike:The run for candidacy.
Toliy:No, just like the the, the way that you go about doing things, I think, will eventually burn out, because of suffering.
Vemir:Right, like what, like like I. Will everything continue to procrastinate. I will stop procrastinating.
Mike:You can only do things like the the certain way wrong. Let's call it wrong for so long until you're like yo. I'm fucking exhausted. I can't keep fucking suffering. I can't keep doing things wrong and not getting like what you want, and then you had to take action. And then you, then you see, then you see council.
Vemir:Every day. Every day like I take action and I feel good, and when I procrastinate taking action, I don't feel good. So I'm trying to work the muscle that just does it and gets engaged, because if I let myself too long, my brain analysis convinces me not to engage, because it's the mind ego thing which just wants to be lazy and comfortable.
Toliy:And I just think it's, it's. It's protecting you from losing, from being a goner.
Tommy:You know what I mean.
Mike:You don't procrastination, you don't want to do this in the first place. You ever have to procrastinate for soccer or no?
Eldar:That's curious.
Mike:No, oh, I wonder why. Why you must really love it?
Toliy:Nobody here has to remember, has to force themselves to do things that they truly enjoy At work, at work. Anywhere anywhere anywhere when you're here anywhere.
Mike:I come here because I love coming to work, because I love the environment, but aren't you having a nice?
Vemir:conversation sometimes and a client call comes in and you're like, oh fuck, I got to take this and you just buckle down and do your thing. That's a real principle, right? I mean, no, it's not like that, we're talking. And then you took that client call. I guess, yeah, and I very much enjoyed myself, yeah, but there's a little bit of friction for like a little bit of time.
Toliy:I'm not saying that everything I do is under that principle. That's definitely the goal of two.
Mike:But the goal is to.
Vemir:So what I'm saying is it's me getting into the motion.
Toliy:But we can call it for what it is. I think that you can't. I don't understand.
Vemir:When I have friction into getting and engaging. That's frustrating and I often avoid the pain of getting into something, whether it's painting, whether it's anything turning on a movie, but when I watch the movie, I'm engaged. Finally, it's just that loading, booting time that I have a frustration with.
Mike:Do you have this in a lot of areas of your life? Yes, okay, I think again to me. It keeps coming back to the purpose conversation. It's always I don't know.
Vemir:It also could be my unique brain mechanism. That's hard to explain.
Mike:You like to think that you're unique, right?
Toliy:Yes, no, it doesn't think he knows. Yeah, this guy knows it. He knows that he's a very smart, unique person.
Vemir:He just is a unique person. I think there are people that are way above me in terms of intellect.
Eldar:Come on.
Vemir:Nice one.
Eldar:Don't kid yourself, man. No, no, come on.
Toliy:You don't have to be so humble. No, no, I'm saying that you don't have to be so humble. We hear you loud and clear. That's the modest of you. It's a caricature.
Vemir:It's a big caricature.
Toliy:We hear you loud and clear. It's a caricature, don't worry, it's a caricature you're making.
Vemir:We know I was there, but I'm not that way forever and I changed.
Toliy:I don't know. I beg to be sure.
Mike:You didn't go through the elders' test yet to see if you actually changed. I'm in awe when I meet. Let's go through it now.
Toliy:He is man. He's got a lot of flying colors.
Vemir:Tell me there's lots of friction, that's perfect yeah.
Eldar:Tell me Listen. Like I said, I think.
Vemir:You don't think I meet AI conference geniuses and I'm like just humble that, how stupid I sound. Of course, but it's a joy to learn from them. I check myself, but you're thinking that it's like I'm just dodging my whole life. No, there's just these points of friction that are frustrating. Look that's what I said. Tell me where I'm wrong, though, like I'm trying to figure out.
Toliy:There's no way I'm thinking for something that's impossible.
Mike:Because you're not open to actually hearing. Yeah, like.
Toliy:You may hear it, but you're not going to really accept it.
Vemir:But this is the thing like sometimes. I feel like in these conversations you find that the aim is to bring someone here in order for them to learn. It's not always there. Sometimes it's here, oh, back up, it doesn't have to be.
Mike:We have to find out where your ego or level is. Sometimes, if they go low, it's possible.
Vemir:I love myself, or maybe high it's possible. I'm very confident in myself, but I have a lot to improve. That's all together. Shouldn't you feel like that?
Eldar:100%, and so prove it otherwise. So you Right, I don't think that it's wrong at all Do you all agree on that. I feel like this is. He has the right to do whatever the fuck you want. That's what I said.
Toliy:That's why I said if you're good, good luck.
Vemir:But if you don't believe my confidence, that's from your side and that you don't believe that kind of confidence exists, he has that same right to have that belief.
Vemir:But I don't. I feel like I want to make every effort to communicate, not convince that I'm coming from a genuine place, and you seem to be persistently not believing me and I'm trying to figure out why that is. It's a thing. Well, why do you have that? Because I feel like I'm coming off authentically and then if we get to a certain point where you just cannot believe me, I have to let it drop. I don't want to go home and think why didn't he believe in me? Maybe I'm a piece of shit? I don't do that anymore. I used to do that, but it's like there are people who doubt me, clearly doubt me off of their insecurity. Sometimes I feel it very deeply, but I've learned that it's not always real. I used to think that if someone doubted me, they're right. They're not right anymore. I used to think that. So I'm recognizing that change.
Eldar:How do you feel about totally, I guess, evaluation of you here.
Tommy:Do you think he's?
Eldar:coming over on insecurity, because I don't think he has a horse in a race to have insecurity here to be able to give you an evaluation.
Vemir:You said you never met someone with that combination, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
Tommy:Yeah, I know, no, it is possible.
Toliy:Okay, it's very interesting you're saying yeah, to me it's very interesting because I've met a lot of characters and I have I feel like I get a feeling from how they act and I have a the way they carried themselves, but it's always the same trick, isn't it?
Eldar:Yeah, it's just dressed up differently. What is the trick?
Vemir:of the ego. What is it?
Eldar:I think you understand what I'm referring to.
Mike:It sounds like a false self-confidence.
Vemir:This is the thing. I get this all the time. It's not false. Just because some people are pretending and you know what it's like to pretend it doesn't mean that my confidence is false. People are so used to fake love that they don't believe when I really genuinely love them and my intentions are pure. That's extremely frustrating to think I have to prove that all the time. Sometimes I just let it be when my confidence and love and doubt that all comes out genuinely, or at least that's what I'm trying to do. So it's like if you don't believe that I genuinely love you, you're fault. If you don't believe that I'm saying the truth, you're fault.
Mike:No, we're not saying that you, not you. I'm saying in general If someone doesn't believe me when I'm saying the truth, it's up to them. I don't think maybe the problem is that what you just said is that we don't believe you're actually saying the truth. I think the problem is that you may be saying the truth, but it may be your truth, but it's not actually the truth you can say that in anybody's sentence.
Mike:Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. A lot of people believe in things. When they say I'm like, oh, I love you, and they go slap their wives, it doesn't mean that they actually love their wives. It's what they perceive or they understand of that word love when they use that word, and I think that's what it is the false self-confidence comes maybe it comes from not lining up with the actual truth, but with our own truth.
Mike:But if you never challenge your own truth, you never had somebody be like yo, you're full of shit and actually prove to you or get to the core of like what is your truth?
Eldar:Yes, but I have to say, mike, yeah, you're right, you're right.
Mike:I think.
Eldar:I think that, ultimately, the, the, the disagreement is in the method, is in the method right Based on, like the stuff that you've described and the things, the way you do stuff and the way you know that this agreement is in the method and the results of those methods drive. Well correct, well, no.
Eldar:The results of the results the disagreement is in the method which you think that he thinks is going to get him to a place and you like no, that's going to get you there, right, and that's why you have your reasons and he has his reasons.
Toliy:The suffering is the ultimate teacher.
Eldar:Oh, it always is Life is always a teacher yes, no matter how you spin this.
Toliy:Yeah, that's why I look at it like, like it's hard to explain.
Mike:That was the frustration, Jan. Yeah, because I want to say something.
Toliy:I feel like it's hard to explain to you what I think without us spending a good amount of time together. That's because we need to get to a point where we can speak the same language and there's a lot of things like there's right now. There's a lot of assumptions, for example, like in in my relation to you, about this right, there's a lot of assumptions that you have that, for you are true, right In us spending a lot of time together. We would need to review all of those and get on the same baseline so we could then have a conversation about what we're trying to have now and without doing that first, we could be looking.
Eldar:Do you have a hunch that he's been BSing himself for a very long time?
Toliy:Yes, what we're doing now is this right?
Tommy:We're using the same words, but we have complete definitions.
Toliy:We're looking at this wall right, Right here, right, and like I'm calling it a color and you're calling well, let's call it calling it a color, but we don't have the same rubric. So you're saying it's purple Rubric, I'm saying it's blue, Like nothing's going to happen. Then we would need to go on a deep discussion about a lot of things over a long period of time.
Mike:I mean, that's the.
Toliy:To get to a place where we could do that, and I think it just requires a lot of time spent together and, I guess, the desire to learn and to find curiosity.
Eldar:Probably then requires time and curiosity. If he has convictions about his stances, how would a genuine curiosity be birthed Through suffering? Okay, that's the only one no right now.
Toliy:Yes.
Vemir:I disagree. The reason why I disagree is because I feel like there's no other motivating factor.
Eldar:Well, yeah, we talked about awareness of pain, right?
Mike:No, I'm genuinely. That's the same suffering.
Vemir:Outside of the suffering mechanism. I'm genuinely curious about when Vamir has a genuine goal, meaning like I want to be competent in capoeira because it would be fun to be competent in that and explore. And you can do many things if you're good at capoeira. You can experiment, you can play in games, you can go to competitions, you can talk shop, you can explore the many dynamics of it.
Vemir:You can do acrobatics with the chickies Exactly. But the problem is is sometimes I don't step up to the plate and you have to do the required discipline and work over time in order to sustain that competence. And it doesn't mean I don't care, it means that sometimes it's just a learned mechanism or it's just very hard for me to be disciplined and do the same thing over time.
Toliy:It's very hard for everybody to be disciplined because you are of an ongoing cycle of forcing yourself to do things you don't want to do, but you have to overcome hurdles to achieve some.
Vemir:For example, I'll give you a very, very easy example. If you want to date beautiful women, there's certain things you have to get through, like the pain of rejection, the kind of improvement of yourself, the ability to hold good conversation, and you have to get through mistakes, feel that pain, get through that. You have to develop a little bit of a thick skin and relate to someone authentically, have something to talk about. Talking to a really high value woman requires you to be a high value man and I feel like that is painful sometimes, but in order for you to enjoy your time with a beautiful woman, it's supposed to be painful. Yeah, to have benefits?
Mike:No, because it's ignorant.
Vemir:No, no, yeah, Do you get the point I'm trying to make?
Eldar:Yeah, we do To get into that room that advanced room.
Vemir:You have to break the things that make you, but that's the thing To make.
Eldar:Again, you probably missed our last podcast. What we talked about is making these types of grandiose goals right is what causes us actual self-right. Like you're saying hey, I want to have conversations with high value women and therefore you have to become a valued man, but then you have to do 100 things in order to become that which you don't want to do. Okay, let me.
Vemir:What are we talking about here, can I? Give you a different angle then.
Toliy:Well, I understand. You just gave us a very simple example.
Vemir:No, I'll give you an alternative angle Instead of the kind of narrow. I think that I get what you're saying, and sometimes I don't acknowledge it. I just move on once I get it.
Eldar:So I probably need to. I get that. I get a lot of people like the end result, bro.
Vemir:No, it's not about the. It's not always about the end result. It's sometimes about the experience being better quality. Do you understand If you are aesthetic, if you're looking at this, the aesthetic lens?
Eldar:But why is the fucking end goal always in the forefront? It's not I'm saying that, but it is. It's always the example of everybody who we speak to. They always say I want to be this fucking expert capriera guy. They didn't say that I want to actually learn how to twist my body in the rotation of 360 without fucking falling on my face.
Vemir:I'm saying that these are also important and maybe I'm saying that sometimes I struggle facing the Going up against the back, like sometimes I get up to 190 overhead press and then it's really hard. I have to really tune in my nutrition to get more protein. I want to lift that and you might say, well, the goal's stupid. And I might say, well, every time something gets hard, you're saying that it's not a good goal. What kind of mechanism is that to improve? This is not what I'm saying at all Okay, then I misinterpret.
Vemir:Well then I'm too much simplifying it in that sentence. I want to actually hone into this.
Eldar:This is what he's talking about that we don't understand each other because we use Well I want to understand what I'm saying is.
Mike:You're going to have to feed the kids soon, bro. You know you're dragging it on, Seriously what I'm saying is If you're trying to understand everything tonight.
Vemir:There's an aesthetic value and a great. It's like, for example, you want to watch a movie. If you want to watch a really high-level movie by Ingmar Bergman or Kubrick or something that's got a lot of depth, a lot of experience, that's intricate and there's so much. There's a lot of things you can take away from it and messaging and stuff like that. Or you can watch a shitty movie they're both two hours, not a Kubrick movie, they're three hours. But it's like you can have sex with a woman who is a good woman but maybe less attractive, or you can have sex with a good woman who's also attractive.
Vemir:The aesthetic experience is also very high-quality. There is a difference there in the experiential aspect. The fiber of it can be different. So what I'm saying is I want to learn when I want to have a high-quality cap-word experience, because I've done beginner level for a year and maybe you want to explore the complexity of the advanced experience, how to break through the hard parts of improvement and the part of you that knows even when it's hard. I need to double down because that next room I'm entering is going to be a more complex and dynamic experience. Is that different than what?
Eldar:you said Are you saying, you are you saying it better?
Mike:I think I'm saying it better because like we're not saying that we shouldn't do things that are difficult. Okay, we agree. I mean I agree. I think I'm not sure the guys will agree, but I think it is good to do things that difficult, to challenge yourself for sure. But I think it's important to know what things actually are worth our efforts and what things are actually not Right. And I think that's where the disagreement.
Eldar:And I think it's just. I think it's just. We also have to be realistic about who we are within those goals. If you have two left feet and you're trying to do advanced capoeira, if what you're saying you can break it, You're an idiot.
Vemir:No, the thing is your current assessment. This is the key problem is that your current assessment is usually wrong about your abilities, and the more you challenge yourself, the more, over time, you realize how much you can do have you seen it?
Mike:Well, there's definitely certain things that are you can't overcome If you're forced to go, you're not going to be able to touch a 12 foot round.
Eldar:You can't know. Well, if you're a short Asian woman, you can go to the NBA. Right yeah, Men's basketball.
Mike:There are some things that are Even if you want to, even if you want to now.
Vemir:Not if you meditate on it. There are some things that seem pretty much mathematically impossible, as you're describing, but there are some things that are in the gray area of like. I actually don't know if I can achieve it, and I should probably see how far I can get before, like I used to be. You fail once you hit a barrier you catastrophize.
Tommy:What's an example of that.
Eldar:Let's see You're asking what is your master of?
Toliy:No, I'm just asking for an example of Okay.
Vemir:I mean like I could go right back to soccer if you want, but I'm trying to think creatively of another example, so it's not dry. Like. One easy example is like soccer Like I always dreamed of doing a bicycle kick I can never do it or whatever else. And then I just became more aware, a little bit more technical, but then I let go of my analysis and I did it, and then the thing that I really wanted to do somehow came to me much more easily after this valley of engaging with the game and eight years ago I couldn't have done it as beautifully. And some things come automatically when you've trained a lot, and then you just release and you just do it and I feel like I'm noticing as a blessing I'm arriving at the things that I always wanted to do, financially or whatever else, and it seems like the more you pay attention to improving the quality of the way you engage with life, let's say, the more that these resultant effects happen. So it's not like I'm saying like I want to work at OpenAI and I'm a piece of shit until I do it. I'm saying that if I have these high bars and I just settle in and dig down and I pay attention. Eventually it comes when it feels normal and it starts to feel normal to do things with high quality. That's what I'm saying is how, like it's not a high quality day If I procrastinate. There's something wrong there. But if I pay attention I notice when I make a delicious coffee, I get my ass into the backyard and I do my lift, I start to want to do more of the lift. I start to feel good about the pain. If I pay attention in the present moment, it's not even suffering, it just feels like pain and improvement and that builds so.
Vemir:Sometimes the things I dreamed of arrive five years later because I was just being a little bit more patient and I learned that whenever I sink into the moment and I don't catastrophize and all these things, I feel like I can work through those barriers a little bit easier. My question is just how to stay in that mechanism that says look, you can improve, you can always do it, just pay attention and try not to be so self-critical about the timing. So to your point one of the biggest problems for me is when I do the assessment, when I say you didn't do it, you can do it. It's more of like I didn't do it, let me keep trying. And then I have the utmost confidence that if Vamir keeps trying over six months, six years, 60 years, he'll get it. He'll do it.
Vemir:So I might say some of these rules or I mean these goals, might be you said unachievable, you said not worth it, but it's like the more I pay attention to living a quality life, the more both happen.
Vemir:I enjoy the process and I get better results than I expected. So I'm just figuring out the mechanics of working through things that feel hard and why they feel hard and how to break through that difficulty feeling so that when I achieve what I want to get, it feels right and I feel like I know how I got there. And I don't know if this is answering it, because I kind of went off after the example, but it's like it seems important to me to be okay with enjoying things that are high quality, because that's part of like when you have a good conversation, when you make pauses, when you have good cadence. There's a kind of pattern there. If you pay attention to that pattern, it can apply to many different things, like timing, and I mean just so many factors are at play here. Like the thing is. I was going to ask you about this. A man sets boundaries and enforces them, but I don't want to get physically violent in enforcing them, but that's usually what people do.
Mike:You told us you want to beat somebody up last week you forgot.
Vemir:I do, but I don't want to do it. I want to enforce boundaries without it having to escalate to physical violence, because I'm very against violence. So that's another thing I'm trying to figure out is how to enforce boundaries and-.
Eldar:Wow. You have a lot of occasions where you need to enforce boundaries without physical violence People test me all the time on my confidence and they can barely get through to me.
Vemir:People do passive, aggressive stuff and I've learned how to call that out beautifully and then people try to get to me. That was a friendly jab, but some people are threatened by me and I'm not trying to be threatening, but it's like I don't want to have to diffuse and call everybody. I just want to be me. I'm not an malice person, I think so the only thing that's threatening here is that sweater Not here, we're not, you know, but the sweater is nice.
Mike:He's just a little boy.
Vemir:He's just a little boy, I am just a little boy, but I've learned how to protect myself a lot. It's like the question is like you know um.
Mike:Why do?
Eldar:you need all this. Why do you need all this?
Mike:Just go play with your video games, eat hot pockets.
Toliy:No, not all of it, no problem.
Vemir:It's just like, uh, I love people, so I'm a little bit dependent on being with people. Like, being good at being with people is important to me because I love it, I feed off of it and good relationships matter and I work hard on those, and being genuine is important. So people are disappointing, right, we make mistakes, but it's like I uh I don't know how to describe it I definitely have a lot to work through. I just, um, there's certain little mechanics that are the most frustrating, like, um, you know and I don't want to overwhelm with all these questions and stuff it's just like. You know, this is a definitely part of a source of wisdom here, and I feel like you know, when we work in the abstract, it's pretty easy, and then, um, when we talk about me, uh, it's a little bit close and I'm trying to be objective, like I think we're all trying to be objective about ourselves. It's just extremely demanding task.
Mike:Oh yeah, we have attachments.
Eldar:No, I think that, yeah sure, you know. Sometimes, though, we need to be subjective about our experiences, because we are subjective about our experiences.
Tommy:We just need to be truthful about them and we are truthful about them.
Eldar:You know what I mean, and then we'll quickly find out what the picture actually entails and why you act the way you do. You know what I mean, but a lot of times it's hard because of the fact that your ego is on the line at that moment, and at least you do a really good job of blurring the subjective and objective and you give very small subjective uh little seeds for us in order to chew on you know what I mean which then are obviously well defended by your objective stances. But I definitely get a sense. Maybe what Toli's saying is that, uh, you have a hard time actually applying your objective, uh understanding about the world towards your own subjective experience and therefore you continue to suffer. Well, it's a big ask, 100%. That's why. That's why I think that my conclusion is that you're too smart for your own good right, and your own good uh lays in, like you said, in that, that place where you're vulnerable.
Vemir:Well, that's why I say analysis, paralysis. When I just take action, I get out of my own way. But that was the whole question, as I feel like I procrastinate because I can convince myself so many ways not to do something. Yeah, listen. So like is that? Is that a deeper mechanism or it's just like? Like I have to answer all the like.
Vemir:The mind can run forever until you shoot yourself in the head Right, like. I feel like I understand the mind's mechanism and I'm trying not to take it as seriously and just go. And you know my, my religious aspect is extremely important in that aspect. And it's like you can't, you can't live in the mind forever. It's just going to, it's going to destroy you, especially with self doubt. So it's like me being smart for my own good. I still don't fully grasp it, but it's like me. I can convince myself that I'm a piece of shit, not worth it all these things. But it's all false. It's. It's the. They say the mind is a beautiful slave but a terrible master. And so if I allow my mind, which is hyperactive, to take over, it's like fuck, like it's like Hiroshima, but who are you? But I recognize that. And if I use my mind as a tool, I'm very powerful.
Toliy:But who are you if you can't control your mind?
Vemir:I am my awareness, the background observation of consciousness, and that's extremely hard to describe, but it's not my mind. Your thoughts come and go right, your mind's process happens, but you see you watching that.
Toliy:Do you find value in getting to a point where you can control your mind? Absolutely Do you think it's possible?
Vemir:But it's. You can only control your mind by releasing the attachment or the objective control. You watch your mind's process, without judging it, and it dissipates. That's what meditation is, same thing. You watch the motions, you watch the body, the temperature. Yeah, but that's just temporary, so is every process in your mind. Your mind is not you. You being attached to your mind is the definition of the ego.
Eldar:Well, that's a curious subject matter, so let's wrap it up and do final thoughts yeah, definitely. Because there could be a lot. For sure, you can definitely take it even deeper. So, vamir, since you've said a lot, we're gonna start with Mike and we'll get you at the end.
Vemir:I don't think I got enough in today.
Eldar:You definitely came in with hyper energy, like Penny.
Vemir:I was excited to come in, like I was looking forward to this.
Eldar:I hope you let it all out, Not even half. I just hope you could sleep at night after all this, Mike. So you know where we started. Did we solve curiosity? How to get curious, in order to then you know what we talked about really Really journey that wonder place, right when we are on an adventure to find out, like, genuinely want to be curious and find out something that we don't know right About the world or about ourselves, In order to then, right, have a little bit of a better guide as to where we should put our thoughts, our goals, our actions and so forth and so forth. Did we do a good job or no?
Mike:I think there's still more, but I think we did do a good job. I think you know.
Eldar:What do we do? What would you conclude from all this?
Mike:Well, I think that awareness, right of suffering or pain is a good indicator that you know you're not at a place to be curious, you know. But it is opportunity to actually get curious how to solve your pain. So I think that's an important thing that we discussed. You know, seeing those things is sometimes hard to become aware, right, like, how do you become aware? I guess it's, you know, paying attention. It's also very again, it's a very like general statement, but I think that's a good indicator that if you're in pain, there's something there you should get curious about how to end that pain.
Mike:And you know, asking people for help. You know, throughout the conversation and just again reaffirm that importance of asking people for help to identify certain things that you're bothered with and then hopefully to resolve them, you know, but curiosity is definitely a really it's a huge resource. You know, like, I think I'm learning a lot of new stuff now, especially in the new role that I'm taking on, and I am genuinely curious. I am asking a lot of questions, and some of the questions on myself, like yo, these are pretty retarded questions, but to me they come about because I actually want to know why these things work the way they work. So it might seem to people like, hey, this is like, why, yes, and this is so stupid. But to me it's not stupid, because I really want to understand. I'm not coming in there like you know, feeling like I'm going to get judged for asking stupid question.
Eldar:But that's because you're in the right place.
Mike:That's true for sure. Come on, man, elderism, but Buya ka sha. But yeah, I think you know. I think it's good to stay curious. Life is a lot. For sure, you know interesting things to offer and to learn about. I mean, I wouldn't want to limit my ego, to limit me from learning the things that I could. You know that can improve my quality of life, make me happier, make my life better you know I like it Totally.
Toliy:What's up?
Eldar:What do you think, what's your final thoughts on curiosity, curiosity. Did we tackle it, would you learn.
Mike:Are you curious if McDonald's is still open or no?
Toliy:No, I know it is. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think we tackled a lot of things on like a lot of points on curiosity.
Mike:Are you curious about Amir's condition?
Eldar:I'm definitely more curious about Amir's condition, and we're going to definitely discuss this behind his back and we'll come back and return with a little bit of more gold nuggets, because he's clearly very open to hearing about it and excited about the process.
Vemir:My condition being my outfit, or what are we talking about? We'll start with that. How many podcasts is that going to be? Mike Park 10, right yeah.
Toliy:I mean, I think we covered a lot of parts of curiosity. I think we clearly see that it's very important, and I think it's important towards progress. I think it's important towards finding out the truth about things. I think it's something that we should, hopefully, naturally never let go. Why? Because I think it'll help us find out.
Eldar:Curiosity is the eternal fountain of youth. Sorry Listen, you're saying stuff and things come to me. That's nice. I like that you done. Yeah, I'll just transition from that.
Mike:Curiosity is like the anti-ego, Bro, it's anti-war.
Eldar:You understand what I said earlier. I was totally saying wait a second. If curiosity is fueling progress, constantly fueling progress, it can never put a stop. There's never a conclusion. So if you're a general statement, if you're suffering, whatever it may be, you are the least curious person out there, holy shit. That's what I was going to go. You've made a lot of conclusions in your life.
Toliy:The more you suffer, the more conclusions you've made and the less curious you are when you're suffering.
Eldar:you know it's, You're not your turn right now. Hold on one second please.
Tommy:When you're suffering, those guys would do a lot of conclusions.
Toliy:You know what I'm saying Try to speak out of your turn, high society and interruption cards. I think we found the button.
Eldar:Stop it.
Vemir:You know, fuck, I forgot what I was going to say. Thank you.
Eldar:God.
Tommy:Thank God. Thank you, god, silence him.
Eldar:But wait, yeah. So, like I said, if you're suffering, generally speaking, based on what I've heard in this podcast and what I've learned myself, you've made a lot of conclusions and they're not serving you, they're not serving towards your purpose and stuff like that, and you are not as curious as you should be. If you want to relieve that suffering, the simple answer is get curious, and hopefully we can help with this podcast and how to get curious by asking a lot of questions and all this other stuff. But I think curiosity can actually lead to world peace.
Mike:Is the Socrates statement. I know that I know nothing. Is that curiosity? 100%, bro, that's like another way of saying it.
Eldar:It's a derivative from that shit somehow.
Mike:You think he knew that when he said it right.
Eldar:He knew the type of crime he would have committed against himself if he made a conclusion statement.
Mike:Yeah, always talked about this. But yeah, you think he knew that I'm telling you. He knew what he was saying when he said that.
Eldar:He prevented himself from. You don't want to hear from me. And that is why I think he believed in the immortality of the soul, because I think he understood that the soul is rooted in curiosity, because, like Vamir earlier said, the shit is so vast, it's unlimited the knowledge base and everything that's out there and if we align our soul towards that, we are forever having.
Mike:I just thought about Anastasia and her whole thing.
Eldar:Yeah Right, don't spoil it for me. Don't spoil it for me, I don't give them the book Come on. I'm not a sucker.
Mike:No but it made me think about the curiosity. We know so little about how the nature is and all this stuff, and that's only because we at some point our curiosity got like exed out. So I'm thinking about how she said you'll let the child explore the world, let him go find out, let him talk to the nature, the plants, the animals, right Like, think about that, what capacity we actually have and how limiting it is because we are not tapping into curiosity to see what. The fastness of the world. There you go.
Eldar:But it has to tell us, like look at this, you know what I mean. We don't even know how to communicate with animals. I mean, we don't know how to communicate with humans, let alone animals, let alone nature and plants, right, but some people obviously do, you know. So, yeah, it's really unlimited, and if we align our souls towards that I think that's the immortality of it we tap it into the God that's in us, and then we cease to suffer and we will be forever have a mirror.
Vemir:No comment.
Eldar:Thank you boys, thank you guys, thank you.