Dennis Rox
Is attachment a modern day slavery?
Have a question? Ask us and we will discuss it during the next episode.
Ever considered the possibility that your passionate cheers for your favorite team or your daily cup of coffee might reveal more about you than you think?
Our latest episode takes you deep into the heart of attachment and its pervasive role in shaping our identities, decisions, and experiences. With the insight of a Buddhist scholar, we pull apart the threads of love and attachment, questioning whether the latter is a silent puppeteer pulling at our life's strings. This isn't a mere philosophical pondering; it's an invitation to reflect on the forces that drive our everyday choices and behaviors, and whether we're truly in control or merely dancing to a tune we haven't chosen.
The buzz that comes with being a fan, the thrill of watching a fighter rise to fame, or the simple joy of a pet's companionship – we examine it all under the lens of attachment and ask what it means for our personal growth and happiness. Can we redefine our notion of empowerment by loosening the grip of our attachments? As we traverse the varied landscapes of sports, entertainment, and our own relationships, the narratives we uncover reveal a complex tapestry of human connection and influence. With personal anecdotes and real-life examples, this episode goes beyond the surface, offering a nuanced look at what truly holds value in our lives.
Join us for a conversation that promises to push the boundaries of your self-awareness and challenge the way you engage with the world. From revisiting long-held beliefs to the way we consume sports and films, each chapter peels back another layer, urging us to redefine the essence of fandom, passion, and love. This episode isn't just about introspection; it's a guide to embracing the uncertainty of life with grace, empowered by a clearer understanding of what drives us and how we can navigate the complex web of attachments we build throughout our lives.
we on X
Have a question? Ask us and we will discuss it during the next episode.
Ever considered the possibility that your passionate cheers for your favorite team or your daily cup of coffee might reveal more about you than you think?
Our latest episode takes you deep into the heart of attachment and its pervasive role in shaping our identities, decisions, and experiences. With the insight of a Buddhist scholar, we pull apart the threads of love and attachment, questioning whether the latter is a silent puppeteer pulling at our life's strings. This isn't a mere philosophical pondering; it's an invitation to reflect on the forces that drive our everyday choices and behaviors, and whether we're truly in control or merely dancing to a tune we haven't chosen.
The buzz that comes with being a fan, the thrill of watching a fighter rise to fame, or the simple joy of a pet's companionship – we examine it all under the lens of attachment and ask what it means for our personal growth and happiness. Can we redefine our notion of empowerment by loosening the grip of our attachments? As we traverse the varied landscapes of sports, entertainment, and our own relationships, the narratives we uncover reveal a complex tapestry of human connection and influence. With personal anecdotes and real-life examples, this episode goes beyond the surface, offering a nuanced look at what truly holds value in our lives.
Join us for a conversation that promises to push the boundaries of your self-awareness and challenge the way you engage with the world. From revisiting long-held beliefs to the way we consume sports and films, each chapter peels back another layer, urging us to redefine the essence of fandom, passion, and love. This episode isn't just about introspection; it's a guide to embracing the uncertainty of life with grace, empowered by a clearer understanding of what drives us and how we can navigate the complex web of attachments we build throughout our lives.
we on X
On this week's episode. Attachment is modern day slavery, and a lot of people are proved to be attached to a lot of things, so they completely shackle themselves in all types of aspects of life.
Eldar:Socrates question like why do you do what you do? Why do you like what you like? Give us the actual reasons. And a lot of times we really don't know. And if we do, if we start getting called out, we're like, oh shit, yeah, I'm not sure if this was it.
Mike:If we do, if we start getting called out, we're like, oh shit. Yeah, I'm not sure if this was it, and that's why I wonder is that his attachment to sports? Because it provides him something that he cannot generate on his own? Wow, oh shit, and that's why we all have attachments. All right, totally Introduce the topic what do we have?
Eldar:All right, oli introduce the topic what do we have?
Toliy:All right, so I was thinking for today, a good topic is to talk about attachment. Mm-hmm. What they are, maybe. What kind of relationship do we have with them? Are we actually anything without our attachments, or are attachments anything without us? Hmm, and then maybe how they influence our lives or what kind of impact they have on us and like yeah, All right so you want to bring up an example. Well, um, not a particular example yet. Okay.
Toliy:Um, but more about that, like, um, the way, at least, I see the attachments in my, in my life at least, right, like they heavily influence, like what I do and why I do it and how I feel about things. And then there's probably attachments that I'm also not like aware of, that are also doing that same thing, but there are some that I am aware of and they may or may not understand the impact they have on their lives. And then there's also attachments that people have that are impacting their lives they are not, um, aware of. You know, for me at least, there's definitely ones that I'd probably say primarily a lot of the ones that you can identify and maybe, if you feel strongly about them, they're probably not serving you very well in your life. Maybe you don't understand the relationship you have with them, um, but I'd probably most why do you make that conclusion?
Eldar:that, what that uh that majority of most of your attachments are actually not serving you well and they're probably a negative thing in your life well isn't like people would say. Like I have attachments like these certain attachments do serve me well like they're important in my life, like this thing is important, that thing is important, you know, like these are my attachments and they are serving me well yes, see, I think it's a very interesting like a question to talk about, because it's like uh, are they actually serving you well, for example?
Toliy:and like how do you know that? How do you know that they are or they aren't?
Mike:I'd like to understand better what is an attachment Like? How would you define an attachment? I like playing basketball? Do I have an attachment to playing basketball?
Toliy:Yeah, probably yeah. Okay, so how do we define them, obviously, other than saying so I think that they're like attachments have like multi, like multi layers, if you want to call it, or like steps you know where. Yeah, Also, you could have like one attachment to something and then you could have many attachments within that thing on that same topic. So, for example, like you could have an attachment to playing basketball and then you could have like sub attachments where like your um attachments are winning yeah, like you're attached to winning in basketball.
Toliy:You're attached to playing basketball a particular way, um, you don't know like your capabilities and basketball, so you so like maybe you push yourself more than like you should. Or, for example, or like um, yeah, like you could be attached to a bunch of nuances and playing in in in in basketball, right? Like, maybe you want to play but you're not consider of like your body or your rest or your recovery, or like different things like that.
Toliy:So, um, I your rest or your recovery or like different things like that. So I would say, as far as how to define a attachment, I probably define as an attachment is a relationship between you and another, like person, place or thing, right? Yeah, that's probably how I would say it person place or thing, right?
Toliy:Yeah, that's probably how I would say it Like if you have a pet, you might be attached to your pet. If you have a significant other, you could be attached to that significant other. You could have an attachment to your, you know, to a family member, to a friend, but you could also have it to like inanimate objects too, or like just concepts, right? Maybe you have also have it to like inanimate objects too, or like just concepts, right? Maybe you you have an attachment to like being right?
Toliy:right you're willing to sacrifice, like the uh truth about a scenario because you have an attachment to be right and that's blocking you from knowing, like the truth of what's going on, for example. Like that, that could be one too, where that's more of like a uh, an idea, or like a concept, or like a maybe a way of living. Um, that's my definition of attachments. I don't know.
Mike:Can you genuinely love something and be attached to it, or is love the absence of attachment?
Mike:be attached to it, or is love the absence of attachment? Well, I was gonna say, is there a good attachment or a bad attachment? Because maybe phil is? Talking about me potentially, I'm not sure if yeah, yeah, I'm not sure if you can say love yeah attachment go hand in hand?
Mike:I'm not sure if you love something or someone, um, truly love it, are you okay if it goes away? That's how I would think of there would be no attachment. If I am attached to something that I want out of it and there's not, maybe that then changes. I'm not bringing something to it, I'm trying to extract something from it. I would assume that attachment would then negate the love for it and then it would be coming from a different place um, yeah, I was thinking about, maybe, attachment.
Mike:If it's, um, you're not violating yourself, I guess, then it's like I like basketball right, I have an attachment to basketball, but if I'm able to be respectful, right and honest with myself when I'm engaging, that's not a healthy attachment.
Eldar:Well, which part of basketball are you attached to? Like, I like to go play. So you just like to go and play, like, where's the attachment to it?
Mike:Well, I totally said that that's an attachment, so I'm just going off of that.
Eldar:So liking to do something Is an attachment, I don't know. I'm asking.
Toliy:No, not liking To do it, but you could be. You can be attached To playing basketball.
Mike:So that's what I'm asking how do we differentiate Between liking it and being attached, because I'm having the?
Toliy:um I'd like to understand, like the criteria for an attachment yes, I guess um, if we're talking about a criteria for for being an attachment, I'd probably say um, you, probably, it would probably you having a relationship with that person, place or thing that can supersede the truth or reality of things, right?
Eldar:I don't understand what that means. What do you mean?
Toliy:like if you're attached to, for example, like winning right, you could like, for example, like winning right, you could like, miss certain things, I guess that are happening or that's going on and you won't be able to see, like the reality of this.
Eldar:Like more details and stuff like that, like there's other things that are going on.
Toliy:So like yeah to me, when you have an attachment to something, you have a blocker of truth with that thing also.
Mike:So you can't love something if you're attached to it Genuinely. Love something, you can be with somebody, but then you're not genuinely loving them if you're attached based off of what you just?
Eldar:Why do you go towards love? Is that the bar? That kind of sets the standard? What do you think?
Mike:Yeah, because I'm thinking of, like you could just be into something, what is into something and liking something and what is loving something. My head keeps going to like okay, can this person still love basketball, but is he attached to it? If he's not attached to like, okay, can this person still love basketball, but is he attached to it? If he's not attached to it, I would think he would be very fluid the schedule, like if he didn't play or he played, it's okay. You know, when he comes, he's just about like, really just about playing, enjoying being there, you know, like a professional.
Eldar:This sounds like there's like a negative connotation that attachment.
Mike:That's what it sounds like.
Eldar:Yeah, has in it Right Like what. What makes like? We have to kind of maybe dissect a little bit what makes something an attachment, or convert something from liking to now attachment, right, when you overdoing stuff or you hurting yourself because of it, you're disregarding others because of it, Right Like disregarding others because of it.
Toliy:Right like well, that that's what I was saying, is that I think that maybe the correct way of it is that for an attachment to be present formed yeah, formed. There has to be some kind of blocker of truth in the way as well.
Eldar:Formed as well yes, yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's the forming an attachment is the result of a blocker of truth. No, I think that the blocker of truth is a result of the attachment.
Toliy:I'm still not sure. No, I'm not saying that one is before the other, but I'm saying what's before the attachment? What's before the attachment?
Eldar:Yeah, before the attachment forms what's before it. Before the attachment forms I like basketball a misunderstanding and then like I'm attached to basketball, and now like there's like some kind of thing that's what happened?
Mike:blocker of truth no, but what does that mean?
Toliy:yeah, what does that mean, like, what's blocked me from knowing the truth, or like for you to attach yourself to something and basketball right, because I guess we're saying that if you're attached to something, it's a negative thing.
Eldar:Well, that's what we're trying to say if that's the truth, yeah.
Toliy:So, because it's a negative thing, there's some kind of truth that you're not seeing, which is why you have an attachment, to begin with, with that thing.
Eldar:No, okay, you're not explaining why, though you know why what though? Like why you with that thing? No, okay, you're not like explaining why, though you?
Toliy:know why. What, though, like why you got attached.
Mike:Because you can't see the truth, but that happened before that.
Toliy:No, you don't start lying. You don't see the truth. Therefore you make an attachment.
Eldar:Okay, so what truth are you not seeing that you're attaching yourself? Which?
Toliy:truth. Are you not seeing that you're attaching yourself um what's true that you're not seeing that you're attaching yourself? Yeah well, you have to give, like I guess, a specific example okay, basketball and winning.
Eldar:Okay, I like to play basketball and now I'm attached to winning. Which truth in the mind I'm seeing that I'm attaching myself to to winning, but not basketball so you attach yourself.
Toliy:If you attach yourself to winning to begin with, if you want to live, for example, a virtuous life or see the reality of what's going on, you're probably not factoring in several factors in your attachment to winning, which is why you make that attachment to begin with. But, yeah, which is why the attachment forms to begin with, because you feel like this is giving you something but you're not aware of, maybe like what's being sacrificed, or like how that's getting, or like how you're getting to that place, or like what are you doing along the way?
Eldar:no sure you can, you can, you can describe. You can describe all the things that are, maybe, but like they're all very vague things Like, yeah, you got attached because you didn't see the truth of the matter. Oh, yeah, obviously. Well, you got hurt because you didn't see the truth of the matter. Oh, obviously, you know what I mean. But what is the actual thing that makes?
Mike:that there's something else before the attachment else before the attachment yeah, something important.
Eldar:We said misunderstanding, I think.
Toliy:Well, sure you could you could say that's where you get, where you put yourself under the wrong. Like, like you, you um choose to participate of a wrong impression. Yeah, but why? Because you don't understand the reality no, if you understand reality, you will never form an attachment.
Eldar:But why would you not understand the reality then?
Toliy:Well, because majority of people don't understand reality.
Eldar:So therefore they just form attachments left and right.
Toliy:They form attachments and then they'll live out those attachments and then they could get maybe educated and understand them more and either lose the attachment or maybe they get like, for example, a lot of people. Would you say it's a fair assessment to say a lot of people are attached to their pets? Sure right, they form a particular type of attachment. Right, but not realizing, for example, like pets are going to die right. Well, why do you say?
Eldar:that? Why do you say that? Who doesn't example like pets are going to die, right? Well, why do you say that? Why do you say that who doesn't realize that the pets are going to die?
Toliy:The person when they're forming the attachment.
Eldar:No, I think that maybe your behavior when you buy a pet sure, in the beginning you might not think about that, you know, one day this pet will get old and die, but that's the truth of the matter. You always know this Like you might behave in such a way, you might start behaving in such a way that they're going to be immortal. But why would you start behaving in that way when the truth of the matter is, everything dies?
Toliy:Yeah, but then when they do die, it's almost like particular things, I think unfold for those people, right, like what?
Mike:well, no, and that is that example. That person does know that the pet is going to die. They're not misinformed. Yeah, and the basketball example, the way that I was understanding it is that, like, this person's going into this, this type of game, and they're unaware of of this thing, or they're misunderstanding understanding something like a rule or something, something that they're not aware of. When you have the pet, I mean, it's basic knowledge that everything is going to die. I think you can go into that, knowing it, and then subconsciously it's kind of there, but you can act maybe differently because maybe you can forget in moments.
Eldar:Yeah, but why would you act in moments in such a way where it's going to bring out more of an attachment, where he then says that, if death does come, you almost was shocked. Surprised, or what is it?
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, like. Why are people sad if their pet dies or like upset? Do they not know that's going to happen?
Mike:I mean again that goes back to like what's the separation between like love and attachment? Like because they love their pet too, right, like uh. And if you're attached to the pet, uh that's what are you?
Toliy:what do you actually love?
Mike:Like the, the like it's it's being, like what it is like at its core. Like what else would you like about the pet?
Toliy:I, I, I, I think you probably like how, um, the pet interacts with you and how you interact with the pet, not like the actual being of it. I think if it was the actual being of it, then you probably would love the pet, um, and not be like attached to it. Hmm, I, I think, probably like. Attachment is probably like a misinterpreted love when it comes to that kind of stuff, like partners or like pets or whoever well, there's something that clearly is being formed, which is a negative thing.
Mike:It sounds like so you're attaching yourself to like the personality versus, like I'm saying, that the love is coming from, like the essence of the actual thing. Isn't that like a deeper connection? That's like absence of attachment. So if I like you for like your personality or something like this, or like what colors you like or the movies, or like how you bark or some bullshit right, like that can change, right, like that's kind of like a superficial thing, and if you're getting attached to that, then I would say, yeah, you probably are misinformed and it's probably easy to get an attachment to that. And then it's probably easy to then go in and out of saying, oh, I like this or I don't like this, and it's like an ice cream flavor or something. It's a living being, yeah. So I'm trying to define the love and attachment difference.
Eldar:I'm still trying to understand for what reason you're trying to build an attachment in the first place.
Mike:Well, no, no, the topic is attachment, so I'm trying to compare it to something, because I'm not fully understanding the attachment so like you could be, for example, attached to, like having people have a particular thought about, like who you are for example right.
Toliy:So if that's the case, you could dress in particular ways or do particular things to keep life of that kind of attachment. If that's the case, you could dress in particular ways or do particular things to keep life of that kind of attachment that would be an example how about we ask Google what attachment is Google?
Eldar:maybe it'll help us. What is the meaning of attachment? An act of attaching or the state of being attached, a feeling that binds one to a person, a thing, cause, ideal or the like, devotion, regard, a fond attachment to his cousin, a profound attachment to the cause of peace. A profound attachment to the cause of peace.
Toliy:Let's see how Buddhists yeah, because Buddhists' favorite or their famous line is to not hold any attachments right.
Mike:Mm-hmm, except enlightenment, yeah or no, that was desires, I think. Which is, I guess, close to attachment.
Eldar:What is the Buddhist definition of attachment? In the Buddhist psychological literature, it is this identification of self as fixed under the fixation on either positive or negative aspect of self that can be defined as attachments towards the self. Okay, so if then, you have an association with basketball or your pet or whatever it is, as a positive association with yourself you can form an attachment yeah, I feel like attachments.
Toliy:They take away from who you are probably as like a person or what you're capable of.
Eldar:Okay, what is the difference between love and attachment in Buddhism, the most difficult distinction Attachment is tricky, but basically it means I want you to make me happy and to make me feel good. On the other hand, love says I want you to be happy and to make you feel good. On the other hand, love says I want you to be happy and to make you feel good.
Mike:Yeah, exactly, there's a selfless versus selfish. I'm bringing value versus what I'm extracting. That's what I was thinking.
Eldar:Yeah, it doesn't say anything about me. Being with me makes you feel happy and good, wonderful. If not, then so be it, yeah.
Mike:Yeah, so you're okay with losing that thing with love, with attachment, you're not?
Eldar:yeah yeah, okay, so okay, all right. The association that is a um, you get something that means for yourself and you like it and you want to hold on to that. Conform an attachment.
Mike:Yeah, I'm playing basketball. I'm going there Every time I win.
Mike:I feel good, but other people are looking at me a certain way. Now I have a status attached to me winning, so now it becomes about how I go in there and perform and how people are looking at me, opposed to somebody else who would love the game, go in there and be like yo, I'm like going to, I get to play basketball, I get to be on the court. Now, when I'm on the court, uh, it's all about being creative and, um, you know, like, uh, just like performing at my best and like taking the skills that I practice and like bringing them on the court.
Eldar:Like to me performing them. Yeah, performing, and about the craft, versus like what you're going to get from it that's how I would okay think about the basketball example.
Toliy:Okay, yeah, that's fair, because, like the, the attachment to winning, for example, we talk about different types of sports, right, like you could be attached to winning, right, but, like to me, it's like if you're attached to winning you, you probably don't have some dose of reality. You're not seeing, like, for example, in basketball, right, like, um, like if I go play basketball, like, let's say, on the weekends or whatever, right, um, and like I have an attachment to winning but you're out of shape right, but yeah, there are so many variables that affect winning.
Toliy:That I feel like if you have that attachment to begin with, you don't understand. So, like, what are those variables?
Eldar:no, no, I, I get that you don't understand. I know what's what, what's happening, that you don't understand what's actually going on. Yeah, but forming the attachment and where it's coming from to form the attachment, it's something different, is what?
Toliy:I'm saying like you form an attachment because you feel that something else out there is able to create a certain feeling that you cannot create on your own.
Eldar:So there you go. Now you're answering my question. Yeah, I think that you're saying that attachment forms because you have a lack of understanding of self, lack of self. There's something lacking in yourself. Therefore, you need to use a form of you know attachment use attachment yeah, a form of filling yourself up which is obviously incorrect like, like, for example.
Toliy:Yeah, if you look at, for example, like, if, if we talk about, for example, pets like a thing and I believe this, um, like, for example, archie and penny and. Penny, they have particular personalities, they are particular ways. Right, if they landed in a different family's hands or something like that, or were separated, or you were not the ones that got them, or something like that, I don't believe they would be the same way that we know them today.
Eldar:I agree with this.
Toliy:Yes, so it's like you have an attachment with something, but it's only because of, like, how you are and how they are and how that kind of balances like balances off each other and that's like created Right. It's not like that pet would be the same way, for example, or have the same personality or be allowed the same types of freedoms, or or not be allowed to certain types of things.
Mike:What you're saying is you can't attach yourself to something you don't like, but I think that's what I heard. I'm not sure.
Eldar:That's number one, that's obvious. Number two I think something else works in there when it comes to at least pets or things that grow. The penny that we got in the beginning stages she was a puppy is no longer the same penny.
Toliy:Yeah.
Eldar:Those attachments in the beginning stages she was a puppy is no longer the same, penny Right. So those attachments that, for example, I don't know. One example is you know, every day, for example, she would, you know, come on the bed and lick my face, you know, like as a morning routine. Now she doesn't do that as often, right. So in intervals now, sometimes she does it, sometimes she doesn't. So I could have built an attachment towards that kind of a routine or a habit. But it's also she's growing, her personality is growing, she's changing and stuff like that. So I think within it it's built in where in growth you can get attached. You're not supposed to get attached because everything's always changing.
Eldar:Yeah, I mean that, if you see it like that, right, like hey, like it's not wise of me to say like yo, I always want this to be this way. Like then, it's almost like that's.
Mike:You want permanence, but but nonetheless, if you understand this, can you then form an attachment or no? I'm not sure. If you understand this, can you then form an attachment or not? I'm not sure if you can.
Eldar:No, what is it called? You just love her. Well, no, I'm just seeing things for what they are.
Toliy:Yes, yes, I see.
Eldar:I still enjoy.
Toliy:To begin with, you lack information. You're, you're, yeah, like you're missing the truth.
Eldar:Yeah, yeah, but the way you're saying is that your attachment then results in not seeing stuff and all this other stuff.
Toliy:that's kind of like just the domino effect, the attachment wouldn't form to begin with.
Eldar:If you're knowledgeable, Well, I agree with that too.
Toliy:Knowledgeable? In what sense?
Mike:Knowledgeable in the reality, like if you're able, well, I agree with that too Knowledgeable in what sense?
Toliy:Knowledgeable in the like, if you're able to see reality.
Mike:How can you see reality?
Mike:Well, knowing that it's going to grow and it's going to change.
Mike:If you're going to go play basketball or whatever you're going to do. How can you see reality? Because if you're seeing reality, then you have to know every potential outcome, right Well, or be able to account for it. Prior to making an attachment yes, but who does that?
Toliy:Well, more people make attachments, which is why more people in general are now very smart and they suffer.
Mike:And these attachments. So the attachment is made first. Before what Well, I'm saying the attachment is made first, before they understand what they're engaging in.
Toliy:So they don't understand what they're engaging in, which is why an attachment is formed to begin with.
Mike:So the attachment is made first because they don't understand.
Toliy:Yeah, it's like being attached to winning, for example, at Lifetime on Saturdays. Okay. Like you could just end up, for example, on like bad teams against like stacked teams, for example. Injuries could just end up, for example, on like bad teams against like stack teams, for example injuries. Right, you could have bad sleep, like you could have overate your breakfast you could have just been off that day, you just suck basketball is a team sport, right?
Toliy:so even though you could be a very good player, maybe you get three, you, you just get paired with three not good players at all and some team comes in that's completely stacked. You could do do very well and maybe give them a run for your money, but you not being able to see the reality of things like yo, you're playing with people with left feet here, right, two left feet. You shouldn't be attached to winning here, because it's just not like that. Even if you're talking about a one-on-one sport like tennis, for example, right, you play just one on one. Um, somebody could be having their best day ever. You could be having like an okay day ever, or?
Toliy:like the worst day ever right, there's a lot of variables into it. So you forming that attachment, is you not understanding these kind of variables? So if you're attached to winning, for example, at lifetime, then you don't know what's what's going on. Like that, that to me is like the reality of what's going on, um.
Toliy:But if you, if you did know the the like, the truth about things, and like the reality when it comes to that kind of subject, you'd be wise enough to not form an attachment, for example, to winning okay yeah, and then like the need to have an attachment, um, I, I, I think that that is most likely a lack of something, and then probably like you not understanding how, like how to extract happiness without forming an attachment, or you not knowing, maybe, where the actual happiness comes from. Does it come from you or does it come from the thing that you're actually doing? I think that it's also like misunderstood.
Eldar:Well, that's what I want to concentrate on. I want to concentrate on the fact that the reason for attaching is probably because you're lacking in the first place, right? So you're looking to attach yourself in order to get some kind of something out of it, even though you really don't understand that that thing is not ultimately going to bring you the happiness, the ultimate happiness that you're looking for. So you attach yourself to all these little things that maybe get you over for a little bit. Yes, but ultimately cause you suffering.
Toliy:Yes, like saying that like going on vacation is fun. No, going on vacation with the people you enjoy with, for example, is fun.
Eldar:Yeah, on vacation is fun. No, going on vacation with the people you enjoy with, for example, is fun. Yeah, right, like it, like it's not the actual vacation itself, without anything right, yeah, go by yourself.
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, go by yourself, see if it's still fun experience. Yeah then, like if you're going with like friends, for example, or whoever yeah right.
Toliy:So it's what it's like knowing the reality of what, of what's going on, and I think, if you do, then I think you'll be wise enough to not form these types of attachments. But I think we have a lot of attachments to a lot of different things and we don't realize it. And even though we don't realize it, it doesn't mean that it's not impacting our lives and that that that, to me, is also like a big thing well, that's definitely because it's all all like.
Eldar:You're almost saying it's all blind.
Toliy:Well, yeah, yeah. Well, there might be attachments that you might be like aware of, but maybe not fully understand, but there's also attachments that you don't understand at all are playing out, but they're happening and they're having a large impact on your life, but you don't even realize what it is.
Eldar:Like the hat example from a previous episode.
Toliy:Yeah, who did?
Eldar:Right, philip, do you have an attachment to the hat or had, or had or hat.
Mike:Well, it was an unidentified flying object.
Eldar:That lands on your head every time you go out.
Mike:Yeah, because I think with this one it's an example of something that wasn't examined, uh, that that did have an attachment yeah, yeah, maybe it was.
Eldar:It was thought of in the beginning, like I said, when the first was the birth of the hat, right, yeah?
Mike:and then it goes away and then you just go on autopilot. Yeah, but there is something at some point there meets of like, okay, this is an object and here's a thought and our belief, and I'm going to marry the two. Yeah, like, I'm thinking about like somebody who, like, goes to fifth avenue or like attaches themselves to a brand, like, oh, I love louis vuitton, I love gucci, or I love all that stuff. Right, yeah, they're attaching like some type of happiness to this thing and they're relying on this thing to get them that so, like, with the hat. For me it was, yeah, there was some type of agreement that I'm making. Right, I'm not seeing, it was being pointed out to me.
Mike:I still haven't maybe figured it out, but thinking out loud of saying, okay, I'm putting this on and it's bringing me something, where your, your thing, was saying, like, you have this thing inside of you and this is actually causing you to hide. So removing this thing is then having to accept that it is bringing me something and having to, like, I guess, re-educate myself on what this thing is and be honest with myself and say, like, why did I make this type of decision or association with this thing? Disillusion, yeah, exactly. So like, yeah, it's being honest with yourself, being willing to examine it, yourself being willing to examine it, and I think, yeah, like how many things in your life can, can you probably point out that you have attachments to that you don't even know on a day-to-day basis?
Eldar:Yeah, that are not actually serving you, that are not. Yeah, well, maybe they, maybe they do serve you.
Mike:Well, they're serving you if you are deprived.
Eldar:Maybe, yeah, maybe to some degree, where you do put on that hat and you know you get what you want out of it, because you're already in that vulnerable state and you need that kind of a maybe, of a crutch yeah, but ultimately, if you do, we're talking about living like a virtuous life yeah then this is not it?
Toliy:yeah, this is for somebody who's okay with not having um a virtuous examined life right, yeah yeah, like the, the buddhists or the monks, right, right like they I guess famously live with no attachments, right well, no, no, I think.
Eldar:No, don't say that. I think their whole goal is to live with no attachments, but yeah, or like their, yeah, I think you know, to reach the, that whole, that state of non-attachment, right, it's probably difficult one, you know, it's not just that simple, you know, and I think they recognize it because it's a, you know, it's a human condition almost. You know that causes a lot of suffering. So, yeah, I mean, recognizing non-permanence is one of the biggest teachings. That nothing's permanent right is one of those things where you have to kind of um, use that as a tool of to combat um attachments right, like, like the example of the pets, or even example the basketball.
Eldar:The truth of the matter is like, sure, you you attach to winning, but you're aging, bro, you know those 20 year old, you know legs they used to have. They're not 20 anymore, they're 40. They don't work the same way, you don't move the same way. You know you don't feel the same way. So it's aging again is going back to that thing that I talked about, it's almost like it's inevitable teacher of non-attachment. How do you feel about that?
Eldar:yeah that's good if you allow it to be yeah yeah, unless you go on to the surgery, right?
Toliy:get plastic surgery? No, I don't even think, if you allow it it's still gonna happen.
Mike:It's gonna happen, but you can. Teachers are meant to learn, so if you're not learning, yeah, then they might not be teaching in that moment?
Toliy:Yeah, so you have to allow it, which is respected, and you know Well, no, but even if you don't respect it like, you're, still gonna learn.
Eldar:Whether you learn, you know when you first get your first wrinkle or your first gray hair or your balding spot. You know what I mean. Then you went and patched it up with a job, paid someone and they took care of it. Or 10, 10 years later when you're gonna get a whole bunch of them and then you can't patch it up anymore. It's everywhere and you know the gig is. You're still gonna learn.
Toliy:The gig is up. Yeah, just a matter of like what pace do you want to be like a dummy, right and like have to go through the whole like ringer?
Toliy:yeah or do you want to, or do you have the ability to learn faster and not have to go through the full ringer? Um, and I think that like that, that, like that to me, is not even really a choice one way or another. It just depends on, like how, how humble you are, right for you to be able to see less than like a faster or like a shorter time spent.
Eldar:Yeah, yeah, no, attachment is definitely interesting because it sounds like the amount of attachments that you have in life. It's almost a measure of your personal happiness. You can measure it like that. You know what I mean. The more you have them, the less likely you're probably going to be happy. The less attachments you have, you're probably more free.
Toliy:Yeah.
Eldar:You know. So then why is it so easy to just get attached? Is it just because then everyone is at a deficit and that everyone's just constantly looking for the easy way out?
Toliy:Well, yeah, I think probably maybe a lot of people are at a deficit but don't know how to fill that deficit properly.
Eldar:So attachment is the easiest path to victory for them in that moment.
Toliy:It's like a very learned behavior.
Eldar:Okay, so then if it's learned behavior, you're saying that other people are promoting it and yeah, they are marketing it like for example like when you're a little kid and we can even track back um further, or?
Toliy:or I mean we can track back to like a tiny baby, right, you, you, you have a baby. Let's just say they're like a month old or something. You hand them a toy. What happens when you take away that toy? They cry they cry why?
Toliy:you did a bad job of introducing it maybe of introducing it or like explaining it, but it seems like like, uh, they like, they want that toy and then like, as they grow older, maybe that that toy transfers into like a computer or a PlayStation right or like an Xbox. What happens when you take that away from a kid?
Eldar:No, you see, yeah, I think that probably the relation. It's not necessarily the toy again or the Xbox that is causing suffering.
Toliy:It's the power that they think that these things do.
Eldar:No, not even no. I don't think so.
Toliy:I think it's the engagement of taking something away from someone well it's the act of like me coming over there right now and taking something from you like you watch yeah, but if you take something that I don't have that kind of relationship with, then that person is not going to care not if you're already associating getting, not if you're associating getting and giving different ways.
Toliy:No, but for example, like, let's say, you go into like your son's room and like there's an Xbox that like he plays all the time and loves, and then they're like there's like a ruler on his desk and you just say like hey, charlie, you've been bad taking away this ruler they're gonna be like okay yeah take away that xbox.
Eldar:So yeah right your parents ever take away your textbook, your folders yeah, but you see, that's because we've we've taught them right, we've taught them the art, almost, of taking and giving.
Toliy:Well, what Well?
Eldar:I'm not sure it's that I think that it is that.
Mike:Well, we're showing them what we're attached to. If we were like yo, give me my book back. Like, how many people are going to be really mad that they can't do their homework?
Toliy:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying is that by whatever you take away from the kid and that, for example, hurts them or doesn't hurt them, right? I think it shows you where they drive or draw happiness from. Whether it's you're not allowed to go out, not allowed to go to a party, you're not allowed to do this.
Eldar:Yeah, but that's only because the person is limited right From knowing the creative abilities in their mind.
Toliy:Well, that's what I'm saying is that the things that are being taken away are the things that that kid or that person Boxed themselves into. Yeah, boxed themselves into at that moment, into what can give them happiness. Yeah, they're under the impression that there is a thing yeah that gives them something and you're taking away that thing yeah so they're people who, for example, are attached to things I I think are, are, are are 100, therefore not empowered for sure, for sure, they're not right, again, it's, it's.
Toliy:It's a thing about like attitude, right, like um. Like if we go, for example, to like the fight right and your dad sits down and like like he doesn't think the seats are good, he could start like complaining and being upset about that. But like um, like if, if, if he didn't have those kind of attachments or maybe expectations, like he could see other things that are good in the moment or other things that are like that. So like you take away the okay, like we get there the seats. Uh uh, we were supposed to get front. Like seats in the front, we go all the way up top. We still going to have fun for example so like if you could do that you.
Toliy:Like you can take away anything from you. Yeah, you have the ability to create the fun. Yeah, not like where you're sitting, who's in?
Toliy:front of you, what view it is, or stuff like that.
Toliy:Yeah, we're going to be able to make jokes. You're going to be able to engage with the crowd. You're going to be able to do those kinds of stuff Like hear, like the sounds happening and stuff like that. Right, yeah. Right Like you, Right like you might already even know they're like yeah, it doesn't matter where you're sitting, you know, look at the screen anyway.
Eldar:Yeah, right, but anywhere right.
Toliy:Yeah, so like those kinds of things. But if you put the empowerment into like having the most perfect view or having like Like a particular thing or something like that, you take away your ability to create in that Moment. Yeah, this is true so probably, like the, the most creative people, the most free people are the ones that could, like, I guess, make the best of anything, almost right having the ability to make something out of nothing yeah, yeah, I would say that like yeah overall attachment is um modern day slavery right yes, yeah, that's what it is and a lot of people are proved to be attached to a lot of things, so they completely shackle themselves yeah in all types of aspects of life.
Toliy:Yeah, right, like whether it's like how they look um, what they like, like you know what kind of clothes they buy, what brands, right, what people think about them. Yeah.
Toliy:Um, all, all kinds of things that shackles them from like them, being them true self and them understanding reality. And understanding like where does the actual power lie? Where does like the magic that they talk about lie? Where? Where is all that done? Where does like like um understanding lie? Like where does happiness lie? Does it lie in the things you have or does it lie in your relationship with those things? Or what you're able to create or not create?
Eldar:Yeah, this is true. What are you guys thinking? You guys are fucked, aren't you? Well? No, I mean, the hat is really doing a number on you, know, well? No, I mean, the hat is really doing a number on you. Now, where is it? It's on there. I see it right now.
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, like if you guys have a reservation for summer and you're all looking forward to it. You get there and they're like yo, there's been a misunderstanding.
Eldar:Oh, they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't have it.
Toliy:It's next week yeah, some people be like fuck, like this sucks, like you know, like shit's dead, like it's over for philip right some people could be like yo let's go next door.
Eldar:Is he gonna throw a tantrum?
Mike:if you remember, the first time we were supposed to go to sam had happened, we redirected to uh montclair, we went to pasta ramen and then we went to fobers and we had a great night that's because you haven't tried something yet at that point, point yeah.
Eldar:Yeah, now that you've tried.
Toliy:Oh, so you're saying, now that I've tried it, it would be bad and you could be craving it, like there could be so many attachments that you're forming or expectations, right, but I also know that, like if you don't have that thing, they'd be like all right we'll go somewhere two blocks away, Like you're to bet betting Barry on it.
Eldar:You know, yeah, no, I mean generally speaking. Yeah, you're right, you know, if you carry that kind of attitude you're going to have a bad time.
Toliy:Yeah, because you're proving to yourself that you're drawing energy from this place, this reservation and stuff like that.
Mike:But that can go away. Like this Exactly, there's a moment where it can go away and you can just be like yo I accept that this behavior or thing, that my expectation level, it's ruining what is happening right now. And now I can just get rid of that and be like yo I'm here Only if you're smart enough.
Eldar:Yeah, Because he said remember we talked about bad attitudes, and I think that's how bad attitudes form. Yeah, the stronger their attachments, the bigger of a bad attitude that's going to come out.
Mike:Yeah, it can. The stronger their attachment is, the bigger of a bad attitude that's going to come out. It can ruin the whole thing. Yeah, the ability not to be able to change and be fluid that's right.
Eldar:Well, not accommodate for some of the variables that happen, like the flooding that happened last time there, right, and stuff like that. So if you can't properly pivot or recognize that life is life and there's so many different variables that so many things can go differently or wrong, or you know not in your way then, yeah, then you subject yourself to what he's saying about attachments, that you'll be upset yeah, like so many times as a kid, I'd walk to the rec as a kid yeah, like as a kid, walk to like the rec center, wanna play basketball.
Toliy:So bad, all my like gear and my get up. I go there and it says like like gyms close for fucking, like voting or some shit. I'll be like yo, what the fuck like? Yeah, be furious yeah like you know, not understanding, like yo, that, like this is a public facility, there's time to time that they use this gym for other things yeah, it could be a game there.
Toliy:It could be some other activity you wish somebody taught you this well, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like to me again always is like um, your reactions show like your understanding of life or your lack of understanding of life yeah, I agree you know, your reactions definitely do.
Eldar:They kind of just highlight your knowledge base yes or the lack of yeah so then, what are you saying? Do you have any suggestions? That sounds like we got it well, that that's.
Toliy:The hard part is that, like often times again, you're not raising like a supreme being. That's like not coming from a place of deficit or like from already being fucked like you're trying to untangle the web that you have. So you're trying to slowly, I guess, understand things and maybe put yourself in a position where you could get to a point where you could see more and more and more of realities and not be living under like non-realities, I guess right.
Eldar:Yeah, sort of the allegory of the cave right, yes, but the hard part again is that like seeing shadows.
Toliy:There's tons of stuff going on that, like you're doing, but you don't know is how it's impacting you, or like what it's like, like how, like what it's doing, right? Yeah, you know. So what should you do um?
Eldar:what are you suggesting and which? Which part of this topic that you I mean you, you said it, you understand it pretty well which part of this topic made you curious?
Toliy:well, like for, for for me, I guess, like, for example, like the different like anxieties I have, um, I guess it's like a conclusion that you know I've made of, like this is what it is, and like the reactions to those things, depending on how they play out, is the like, um, the lifeline of the anxiety, right, right, and like, if you no longer have that kind of conclusion, or that you no longer live by that kind of set of rules, then, like, the anxiety there does not have a place to breathe.
Eldar:Doesn't have power.
Toliy:Yes.
Eldar:Yeah, so how would you apply this for yourself? Well. Who's now grown, who's now grown, who has a mind, who uses critical thinking on some areas, to then not being able to apply this to this area? What would you tell yourself, or what would you do?
Toliy:I need to go and I need to reexamine the different conclusions I've made about particular things and um and why their attachments were formed yeah, and why the attachments were formed, and get to a place where I can give new, where I can make new conclusions about those same things okay right and like. That to me is like the entangling of like what's going on and how would you do this?
Eldar:how would you start?
Toliy:how would I start?
Eldar:give an example for the people there's plenty of people that have this issue. You know, um, how would you go back, re-examine your understanding of this, your conclusion that you've made based on, and then all the attachments that's been formed to then get rid of that conclusion, form a new true conclusion. Let's just say all the attachments that's been formed to then get rid of that conclusion form a new true conclusion.
Mike:Let's just say and then not form an attachment, because it's the truth, right, I agree, but I think the issue there is the forming conclusion Right away. If you form a conclusion, you develop an attachment. So a lot of times you talk about and I, I like, I like that, yeah, you're right I'm agreeing on that.
Mike:I'd like to try to implement in my life is to always leave it open-ended, like, hey, it's always a maybe. Yeah, ideally it's a good point. This would be like this, but you don't know, you don't know, you don't know that's a that's a very good point. That's important. I think that's a very good point leaving it my way out, yeah I always needed to like put a period on a lot of shit.
Mike:Yeah, now I'm learning that that's not useful. So I'm learning how to use commas or whatever. Yeah, because I really don't know, and I'm realizing more and more the more I know, the more I don't that I don't know. Yeah, you know about what's actually going to happen, how things are going to play out. Yeah, you know.
Eldar:Yeah, that's interesting. The more I know, the more I realize that I don't know. That's very good. So give us some step-by-steps, man. People are fucking waiting and they're hungry. I don are you hungry yeah. But not for knowledge.
Toliy:Why you think they're going to listen to begin with.
Eldar:Well, I'm not sure if the audience is beyond the one that's in your own head that needs to listen to this. That's also true. You know what I mean? I think it starts from us.
Toliy:Yeah.
Eldar:The immediate us, you specifically, because you said hey, like some of the things that I have is, you know, doing your head in, you can use this your own advice. So what is the?
Toliy:step-by-step thing.
Mike:Yeah, I don't know I don't know well, I know, for phil it's very simple just eat some trail mix. Oh my god yeah, yeah.
Eldar:So, mike, how do you go back? How do you go back? Yeah, what he said? I mean I gotta go back. He said, hey, like why did I form these attachments? I mean, why do you form these conclusions about these things and then form these attachments? How do you go and re-examine it? So then you can for me.
Mike:I don't know if you would, I don't know if you would go back. Because does it going back, like you have said this maybe I'm taking out of context, but we spoke about this like, why does it matter how you got here? You're here now, in the present. Yeah, you have certain pain points. Yeah, that because of your attachment, that give you right, these pains. You see them and you try to get to the core of okay, why is there a pain if we already understand, already understand this is happening because of a void, our pain, our attachment. You just find you. Just, I think then you say, okay, what am I actually lacking in life that I'm gravitating towards this kind of thing and what is it actually filling me with? Right? Because I guess our attachment, they fill us in certain areas. I'm thinking a lot. I'm'm not really sure, but if we're attaching, so we think for love, like like a love right for me.
Mike:I had an attachment to fall in love because, yeah, very simply, probably I didn't love myself, right. So what does that look like? Not loving myself, right? Yeah, and I think, yeah, I don't think there's anything complicated, it's all. It's always going to always come back to those virtuous things Like do you respect yourself, do you are you honest with yourself, do you take care of yourself, do you trust All these things? It's in those areas. It's showing that you're compromised. That is an attachment, that you're compromising on certain things virtues, values, morals, ethics All those things are being compromised in order to stay attached to that. So if you can identify that, those moments because sometimes we become numb to the pain or we don't observe it, like Tully was saying, we don't notice it, but we're suffering, something that we did a long time ago but if you become more aware and you start paying attention to those areas, then you can see what it is that's actually happening right now.
Eldar:You're almost doing like a scale. Hey, this weighs more than this now, and this works for me. This doesn't work for me. And then you have a contrast, right? You're saying Don't really go back, look at what's going on and then choose what you want to be yeah, well and make the choice to do more right than the stuff that pains you. Well, I think it always.
Mike:It also comes back to the unexamined life that never ends. Every single day, you evaluate, if you want to, of course, live that kind of life. It's inevitable, yeah, today right now on your radar is fucking hot, is fucking basketball and you realizing you have a bad relationship next month it's going to be fucking something else. Yeah.
Mike:But that's the way it is. You can only uncover what you. What you can uncover, I guess Right Like uh not to sound or confusing, but in the moment you can only uncover what you feel. If you get stabbed with a needle, you're going to feel it, but if you don't feel it, but you're still getting stabbed doesn't mean it's there still, but it's going to take a couple of stronger stabs maybe for you to become more aware, right?
Mike:I think that's also, as you become better at this identifying pain points, you develop a more acute thing. As you become better at this identifying pain points, you develop like a more an acute thing to notice it more and more.
Eldar:So then you're talking about awareness. Yeah, you're talking about being aware, right? So I guess slowing down enough to be aware of the pain that is actually happening in the first place.
Mike:Yeah, but I mean, my hunch is that those things we know them. We just got to slow down for a second and think, and nothing's really going to surprise, like, oh really, I didn't think I had a really bad.
Eldar:A lot of the attachment is really good at what it does, or the delusion.
Mike:Yeah, yeah but.
Toliy:Yeah, I think if it was like that simple, like there wouldn't be really much suffering. What simple, what exactly like I guess, like the way that you're Phrasing it, I think, makes it seem like it's very like easier or a simple. Mm-hmm but if that was the case and we would all be, for example, always living Virtuous lives, I can.
Mike:I didn't say that. I said that living a virtuous life is an ongoing search, an unexamined life. It's always, it never ends, you never figure everything out and you never fully, completely know all of the things. Maybe until you reach enlightenment, then maybe you might, you know. Maybe until you reach enlightenment, then you maybe, you might. But maybe I mean to me maybe it sounds simple because to me it maybe that's how I feel about it you know, because I went through that and examining a lot of things, you know, and I understood that there's still more to examine.
Mike:So why should I stress about it? I just try to be aware in the moments that I can be and I also understand that my human kind of thing, where I can't always be aware, you know, but I strive to do my best to always do it and if I genuinely believe that I'm being honest with myself when I say that I don't know doesn't sound too scary to me or difficult, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to make mistakes and not get attached or something like that.
Eldar:But you know what, you do have a sense of vigilance about you, about these things, though. You know, like of this awareness where, like sure, you're not going to stress about it or worry about it a lot, but when it does happen to you, like you're like oh shit, I'm aware of this, like this just happened. But when it does happen to you, like you're like, oh shit, I'm aware of this, like this, I just happened and you want to do better next time around.
Mike:I do yeah. You know, that's why maybe it sounds simple to me, because you have a, you have already a strategy.
Phillip:Well, yeah, it's built in in your head yeah, yeah, I think so that, yeah, yeah, so.
Eldar:Yeah.
Mike:But yeah, but that's what works for you, that's what works for me, yeah. Yeah.
Eldar:Yeah. Yeah.
Mike:Well, I can only speak for yourself. Speak for myself, but like as a general advice, like how to do it yeah.
Eldar:Well, he still feels that he has to go back and reevaluate those attachments, those conclusions that he made, yeah, well, well, yeah, but I think you guys are talking about going back in two different like ways.
Toliy:Like I, like I'm not saying that like you physically have to go figure out, like why this happened to begin with.
Toliy:I'm talking about that like, um, like, even like it, it it, like I, I would find it highly unlikely that, like you live life saying that you don't know and you have that kind of attitude towards things because, like I think, like we very much show that like the way we act, like we do know right and we do have conclusions that we kind of form on particular things, and I think that we always show that.
Toliy:But then I think that once we stumble upon something, hey, like something here might be wrong, you kind of when, when I say, go back, like it's like uncovering that pot that you had like a lid on for a while and and and seeing, okay, like, hey, like, whenever I formed this conclusion, whenever it was, let's say that that doesn't matter, but nonetheless, like I did say, like okay, like this is makes sense and like this is what I understand about this, right, but then, like, when you go back to that thing, you could say that, like you could, um, I think ideally like, re-examine it and then see, do you still feel that same way about that thing? And then, if you don't, you get to a place where you now live under a new set of terms for that thing. That's what I mean by going back.
Eldar:Yeah, you got it.
Mike:Mmm, yeah, kind of I guess, but not really totally.
Eldar:You didn't do a good job explaining to him like what don't you understand?
Mike:I guess, yeah, like give it to me one more time. What do you mean when you say like go back?
Toliy:like, okay, like your understanding, for example, right now, is that like, let's say, if you don't know how to do something, there's a, if you don't know how to do do something, there's a process. You go towards figuring it out, right, um, maybe, like, your process might be like, for example, phil didn't know how to get that watch right, maybe, like, if you were in that same situation, your process and your understanding is that you would go and go on google and look it up, right, clearly, his was not that like, that's not what his understanding is. When you would go and go on google and look it up, right, clearly, his was not that like. That's not what his understanding is.
Toliy:When he's in that situation of like what to do, his is more of like be like a confusing otter, right, um, like in that kind of thing, right, just like flopping around right right like for you it's like, okay, you don't know it, you don't need to know it, but you also there's like plenty of tools to figure it out, and you could have made a conclusion that in scenarios where you don't know, your default is to be resourceful and to look things up that you don't know.
Toliy:Where someone else's might not be that way. So if you were not that kind of person and you stumble upon that and realize that you would need to like re-examine the conclusions you formed as to how you would handle that kind of situation and realize that, like okay, scenarios where I don't know might be okay to ask right.
Toliy:It might be okay to look it up online now that that kind of tool is like available right, maybe like the next level is again like asking AI, right, even like you don't have to go search it yourself, you just ask it, ai searches it for you and gives it to you, right? So like that might be also a thing to reprogram slowly. For us is like the AI like use right, we need to go do research as to what the best fitness tracking tool is for you, or is ai going to be good enough to know exactly who you are and what you actually want? Will that?
Toliy:will that happen eventually?
Eldar:yeah right.
Toliy:Do you need to think about what to eat today? Or does the ai know that, like hey, based on like your cravings, based on your lack of this, based on your sleep, based on this, this, this, this, this you worked out yesterday, you're going need this amount of protein. Therefore, you're gonna crave a chicken today, or like stuff like you're gonna already know these kind of things? That might be like a reprogramming for us as to how we go about things eventually, right yeah like that.
Toliy:That's what I mean by going back, like not not necessarily going back and like necessarily figuring out, like when and why you made this conclusion, but nonetheless you made. You made one, and that, um, that's what I mean by by okay.
Mike:And also you said something that that you didn't. I think you said you don't believe me or something about my process or something about no, he said.
Eldar:I think when you said like I don't know, it's not necessarily that you don't know, because you show that you actually do know. By the way, you behave a lot of the times yeah, okay, and like what sense?
Mike:I didn't understand.
Toliy:Like what you mean like like the way that we all act right in different ways, how we handle all different kinds of situations, or like scenarios. We we we we're not like um approaching those things that like we actually don't know.
Toliy:We we lots of times like we'll, or or like, for example, like if, if you want to bring you in it's like an example um, in different things that you engage in, like, um, there's some things where you're like hey, like you know, going into it, I know nothing about this and this is how I'm going to act. But then there's also things where you do know and you act a particular way. For example and we all show that in different things, we still have not a conclusion necessarily, no, not like a conclusion necessarily, but like we have a default stance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a stance. Yeah that, like you do have a stance.
Mike:Right, and what's the stance?
Eldar:Well, the stance is clear. It's one between like I actually don't know, or actually I'm behaving in such a way that's showing that I might know.
Mike:Okay. So the I don't know versus I do know, yeah, okay, and one is arrogant, or Well, I don't know, I don't know what she's referring to. I guess I'd like to know an example so I can understand.
Eldar:Well, no, If you're coming to him and you're saying I don't know but the way you're coming to him and you're saying like I don't know, but the way you're behaving is like you do know, that's probably like you're maybe delusional or you're arrogant or whatever it is yeah, if you actually didn't know, you would come across like you didn't know. You know what I'm saying. Okay.
Toliy:And he was saying that. No, I was saying that like, in, in, in, in, like, in general, we show that like we do know something and we don't live by that, like we actually don't know, and we prove this by just like how we live and what we do yeah right, like um, like, if you come in with bottles of like, let's say like electrolytes.
Toliy:That's like a stance that you're taking that like I'm drinking this because I know this right. Or like you eat a particular way, like you don't eat like 12 slices of pizza for lunch, why? Because you're taking a stance that, like you know how to eat a different way that might serve you. Like you are saying that you know.
Mike:By your actions.
Toliy:In those moments in different things. Now you could obviously be like delusional in certain things, where you're acting like you don't know, but you could be proving that you do know. But my main point was to highlight that our actions show that we do know things right now like we don't live by the I don't know thing now. Maybe on like more important concepts, you could be more fluid, like when, like, like, like, like in general people like the, the better practice is to be more, maybe open-minded.
Eldar:Right is one thing or open, or open-ended or open-ended, but nonetheless you still have a stance right.
Eldar:Well, the thing is, I think that there's nothing wrong with having a stance if that stance is also not projecting upon the world when it's not being asked for, right? Because if you like to do some weird shit at home, that's your weird shit that you do at home. Now, if you come to me now like yo, this weird shit right here, this is the shit, bro. You got to start doing this. Like, who the fuck are you to tell me this? You know what I'm saying. Like, then we have a problem, right? Then we're talking about arrogance, then we're talking about pride. Yeah, you know ignorance and everything else, but if you're, you know you're living out your stuff and it's working for you. It's a subjective experience of you liking chocolate. I like vanilla. I don't think there's nothing wrong with that, correct?
Eldar:yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, you know but, as soon as it starts to go externally from you and you're using it as a way of display a knowledge base, then people can question you. Number one we're talking about subjective knowledge or objective knowledge. That's number one, right, and whether or not you got this right by asking more and more questions. I think it's bad to be under the wrong impression, but I think it's worse to then promote that wrong impression.
Eldar:Oh yeah, for sure, or sell it to the world, right, you can say, yeah, sure, I'm drinking these electrolytes, I'm coming in here, I'm taking a stance of coming in here not saying a word, but I'm drinking my electrolytes. Right, and I'm under the impression that these electrolytes are good for me. Right, that's my impression. Yeah, you know what I mean. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Now, if somebody asks you and you start like telling them, like all these things or whatever, you probably could be questioned, especially if you're promoting it. Yeah, you know externally to the world. But then okay, wait, wait a second, you know. So, subjectively, you can have your electrolytes, but this might not be factual actually, because there's a lot of sodium or some other shit, that's not healthy. You know what I?
Eldar:mean, like sure you check this, but you have high sodium intake and that's actually bad for you. You know, Absolutely yeah Right. Yeah. That's kind of a good example.
Mike:Yeah, right, yeah, that's kind of a good example, yeah, of something like that. Yeah, what if I started to like melt chocolate in my bath and started to take like chocolate baths? Right, then I come in and then I don't say anything and then you guys ask me, like yo, how's your baths going? I'm like yo, they're good. And like you guys keep prying and like, oh, did you do anything different? I'd be like, oh, yeah, I started to melt chocolate in them and like then it was the opposite where, like, you started to ask me more and I was like yo, I just like it. Like I don't think there's any benefits, yeah, maybe I just like, I enjoy it. Like to me, if I'm not then trying to sell you guys on like the chocolate bath and I and I just enjoy it, can I just look at it like for what it is like. There's no arrogance in that, right yeah, yeah, absolutely not.
Eldar:Versus a regular bath if I'm out of chocolate, it's cool, I enjoy it Do you eat the chocolate after or no?
Mike:You can drink it during. I'm just thinking about it now. The possibilities are endless.
Eldar:I'm pretty sure somebody did this before, did a chocolate bath.
Mike:It might be a therapy thing we might be onto something, philip, but until I start to promote it and act like I do know something where the opposite would be like hey guys, like I took this chocolate bath, my skin holy, um, like I have this energy about me and like then I'm associating it directly with the chocolate, and then you guys can start to question me and be like there's an actual correlation, do you think?
Mike:that the chocolate? Or did you get better sleep and do you have less stress, like what's the difference? And then you can start to question me.
Eldar:Yeah Then. Then you acting like you actually know you know what I mean Like because of the way you come in across. But you know you can say hey, like no, and I can't attribute it to anything else. What can we say? Yeah, can't say anything.
Mike:He's just a weird guy who likes chocolate baths, yeah.
Eldar:Yeah, and that's where it ends, and I think that's okay.
Mike:Sometimes, you know, yeah, and I think that's probably more of a display of non-attachment on your part than you coming in here and like, guys, guys, chocolate fucking baths, because then my attachment would be I'm not taking the bath for the bath, I'm taking it, so then I can then go tell other people about it. As well If I was just all about the bath and it would just be like yo, he just really likes baths and he's just being exploratory with different variations of baths, so like he's just the bath guy. Yeah, yeah.
Mike:Yeah, how long would it melt in and how long would it kind of thicken up?
Mike:Phil, I'm just thinking about how much chocolate you would need, because you can melt a couple of bars and it's going to be water with chocolate, but I'm talking about pure chocolate bath.
Eldar:You're talking about the Wonka factory. Yeah, how much would you need, you want a real fountain.
Mike:Yeah, I mean, that can't be. That's got to be a plumber's worst nightmare. No, A full chocolate shmading down all the drains or no.
Eldar:Yeah, if you're doing it into the drains, yeah, that'll be crazy.
Mike:Yeah, to.
Eldar:Bump it out.
Mike:Yeah, where am I putting all the extra chocolate?
Mike:Yeah, you have to remelt it down and then clean it, make bars, philips bars, out of it. Yeah, you just have to get a full body cleaning of the hair.
Toliy:Mike had ass hair there.
Eldar:Oh my God, everything's going to get stuck.
Mike:That's disgusting. I always thought about that when I was younger and I was like, oh man, like one day when I have a house I'm gonna have a party Milk bath. And. I wanted to fill up my pool in the backyard when I had like a big like DJ and like a party and stuff, and I wanted it to be with Jell-O, with the whipped cream on the top layer. But the whole pool was filled with Jell-O.
Eldar:Wow, All right. Well, listen you're. It's still very possible. Oh man, nowadays people walk around pretending that they're horses and cats and dogs.
Mike:Yeah, it's normal.
Eldar:You know what I mean. Now nobody's going to say that's corny, yeah, that's not even fun. You need to upgrade, grow a tail, come on, or something weird like that.
Mike:If you went to somebody's house, they had a house party and they had a whole pool. I'm talking about like, not like a kiddie pool. I'm talking about like an in-ground, like serious pool, one was pudding, one was jello and they had multiple pools or something like some crazy stuff.
Eldar:you know and imagine the stuff that was in. It was organic.
Mike:You can eat. I need to be the first one to jump in, though. Do you think if you jump into pudding, you think it'd be hard to swim, or no?
Eldar:Well, I don't think you're swimming in it, no.
Mike:Well, let's say there's a 10-foot deep end and you're jumping in.
Eldar:No, I think you're drowning. You're drowning. Yeah, I don't think you're swimming in that. You're drowning like quicksand.
Mike:Because jello, I would think that Jello would be the same. Well, no, I would think that with jello, I remember the more that you schmiding it it turns into water base, swirling jello around. I remember I got watery so I would bet on that, getting watery the more that I swim. But pudding, I think that you would be done.
Eldar:No, I think both would be done you think both you'd be done, yeah, yeah.
Mike:We'll make it happen one day, phil.
Eldar:Yeah, well now we know your fetish or fantasy, okay, so anything else around attachment, totally, you still have questions, it sounds like, or maybe you're confused about how to engage or execute what you wanted to advise yourself, because you clearly said it's not that simple, right, as Mike put it.
Toliy:Yeah, I think it's not that simple. I feel like if it was that simple, then any issue you have or anything that you're suffering with someone can, for example, just explain to you what's going on and then you just download that immediately.
Eldar:And you're good to go. That's proven in people at least, that's not the case.
Toliy:People are not like.
Eldar:That's why a therapy session is not just one hour session, that's years long, to break cycles, cycles, cycles yeah habits, yeah, okay so so what kind of conversation you're gonna have with yourself yeah, I mean, I think it's like.
Toliy:I think I have a good think. It's like um I think I have a good start now of like trying to form um newer, new habits, right, new, new, different things and maybe get a new um like outlook on but maybe it's like a shooting in the dark.
Toliy:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, may, may maybe is the wrong word like okay good, um, um, with the accumulation of enough, I think, good things in your life, um, I think, it'll be easier to see the bad things, um well then, that's what you that's what mike exactly was talking about.
Eldar:I think that you, what you're doing, is you're creating a contrast. You don't want to really go back right and really examine all the shit, all about habits, right, but what you can do is a little bit of raise awareness about pain, and no pain or pleasure.
Eldar:You know, pain being bad, no pain but no pleasure is kind of neutral, and then pleasure being good, and then if you become sensitive enough to be able to see between the three and strive more towards having more pleasure pleasurable experiences, right, um, good experiences, genuine good experiences then yeah, maybe that's a way of raising that awareness enough well, yeah, to get away from the pain?
Toliy:well yeah, but I still think you need to, I guess, like confront and understand.
Eldar:I think that you do need to confront yeah I think that there comes a point that you do still need to confront that bully, that mental bully, that attachment formed in your head. I do think so.
Eldar:Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think that you know one of the examples. You know like sometimes, when you talk about your parents Mike, the way you want to, what's his name Obviously better your relationship with them you still let certain things slide or slip through the cracks. You know what I mean and I think that that confrontation needs to take place in order for you to really solidify some of the things that you've been working on. Yeah, I agree you know what?
Eldar:I mean because, um, that will be almost, um, maybe, the final boss or the final step of actually bridging the gap between knowing and actually doing and making it a good habit, you know permanently, you know taking something that was subconsciously painful to now being habitually painless and also pleasureful. You know, what I'm saying. Before it was just automatic bad. Now it's automatic, not only just neutral, maybe even good.
Mike:Yeah, but I think, like I agree with you for sure and there's definitely the contrast right between my relationship with my parents, my mom and dad, the way we interact, and then also Emma, you know. Yeah. And I think you obviously know about this. Yeah, I definitely am more and more seeing there's that soft spot for Emma.
Eldar:Yeah, that attachment.
Mike:That attachment, yeah, where it's not there for my parents, where I can be much more, why? Well, that's that's, I don't know. That's what I'm trying to understand, you know, but I'm just more and more developing the awareness of it. You know, yeah, I'm trying to see where it came from. You know which I?
Toliy:see. Even in that, for example, example, even the example that you're giving, like the, the reality is that you do know, or you once did know, which is why, like you, took a particular stance for example with her right so my thing of, like the revisiting of it or the going back is like figuring out hey, like you, well, you, you clearly know the stance you took.
Toliy:But maybe figuring out like again, like why you took it and how do you feel now, and then, uh, understanding that and then being able to apply it. But even though you're saying right now that you don't know, the way that you act shows that you do know. That's what I was saying there. I didn't understand the end, I just gave you an example of what he meant before.
Mike:No, I understood his example. How am I acting? That I do know.
Toliy:Because the way that you're treating Emma is different from your parents. So you're taking a particular stance that show that you do know something, and then you're acting out the thing that you do know.
Mike:Oh, I'm definitely acting out what I know, which is my bad behavior with Emma. That. I know this.
Toliy:This is what he's saying yeah, I agree, that's what I'm saying, even though in the moment that you're saying now that you don't know, you do actually know, but now you have to revisit that thing that you thought that you knew and um, and figure out like why you may, may, maybe, took that stance and then um, um, yeah, to me it's not to take a different stance.
Mike:To me it's not. I'm not asking myself why I took that stance, that's more. I'm not sure if that's as I think about it. I'm not sure if that's productive. To me it's how do I take the right stance and understand why it's the right thing to do here? Like I'm trying to understand how I should go going forward because why I did it before it's not. I'm not sure. I don't know. At least I'm not sure if it's going to help me to come up with a better strategy. Like the truth is not going to change if I know the past right of how I should be acting, behaving towards or going forward well, yeah, my my, yeah, my my.
Toliy:My main point is that what was showing the contracts of you saying right?
Mike:now I agree. No, I understood, but you acting out that you do absolutely. Yes, you, yes, you're correct on that, yeah.
Toliy:Yeah, yeah, and those are all things that are playing out on, all different things that we are and are not aware of, like our actions show that we do know. And because we do know we're acting in a particular way until we revisit and figure out what's going on there. Until we revisit and figure out what's going on there, you know, and then ideally, yeah, understand it and take a like, actually take a different stance, and then live out and act in according to that stance.
Mike:Yeah, absolutely.
Eldar:Good example of your attachment. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You know which is still you know which is still, you know, has its hand on today, present day, that it's not serving you? Yeah, definitely, you know. Serves as a good reminder, you know definitely yeah, yeah. So it's almost like long unchecked attachments will be long. You know any long process to get unattached almost.
Toliy:Well, that's what I'm saying is that there's there's like um so many different things that you're not aware of that. Yeah, Um a stance on.
Eldar:Yeah, but you know what? Um, I think the conviction behind philosophy and really believing that I know that I know nothing kind of thing if really adopted properly, I think that you can blanket a lot of things and liberate yourself from a lot of shit.
Toliy:Yeah, see, I don't know if you could just truly adopt that kind of thing. I think that that is a um like, the I know that I know nothing thing. I think that is a um, a uh effect of those, those re-examinations and those rewirings that happens by by like, uh, by like, like that that's an indication of a like, an automatic indication of gaining wisdom. Well, no, no, I'm not saying that it's an indication of a like, an automatic indication of gaining wisdom well, no, no, I'm not saying that it's automatic.
Eldar:I'm not saying that I need. I actually think. By saying that, I'm saying that you have to actually immerse yourself in that which is being said and really understand that in order to do that, you need to study oh yeah and you need to study a long time probably, and you need to immerse yourself in the focus of that study to really embody that what I'm talking about. And only then the identity has shifted away from the attachment yeah, I guess like yeah, okay, then I agree.
Eldar:I'm not just saying like, hey, let me just sell you on this, and you're like, yeah, you're right, yeah, yeah, and then, like you, run with it and just parrot it and you can't.
Toliy:The immersion of it is hard again because it's like you have to go, have a good enough reason yeah, you have to have a good enough reason. I guess you have to be in a position where you have, like the time and resources to immerse yourself in that kind of way. Um, you need to have well, you know that's bullshit um your desire will always outweigh time and resources.
Eldar:Your desire will always outweigh time and resources. Always, you will move mountains for a desire. We've known this On the good side and the bad side, doesn't matter what it is.
Toliy:The immersion of this to me is like a long term.
Eldar:People quit their jobs, people change their careers, people recluse. People go to India, people go into cults. This is a known fact. People will do it. People will recluse the whole world, leave their families behind, divorce their husbands, wives. They'll do anything for you know, for certain things of immersion. They'll do it. It's hard but they do it. It's in us. We have that in us Not necessarily mean that it's going to be, it's going to turn out okay.
Toliy:So why don't we all do?
Eldar:that when we do? What do you think we're doing?
Toliy:No, but just like a full 24, 7.
Eldar:Why we don't do it simultaneously.
Toliy:That I don't know that I don't know, that I don't know.
Eldar:Yeah, see, I'm not sure if knowledge is gotten or received all at the same time. You know that, like some people are sleeping in Australia right now.
Mike:Don't you need to accumulate enough pain to get to that point?
Eldar:Correct. Yeah, you do need to get.
Mike:you need to get enough pain to get to that point yeah, what you guys are saying about the believing in that thing, about I know that I know nothing yeah, I think it comes with with experience right well, the more I guess, at least for me, the the way I kind of like you know why I'm more and more and more like you know, believing into that Mm-hmm, because of the like, the suffering that I was living out, mm-hmm, right, and then how I improved those areas in my life, mm-hmm. But then I also saw how certain things still come around, right, you know, and like it comes from different sides, yeah, yeah, I guess that kind of showed me, I guess, living in comparison, being able to compare, compare the good life and a really bad life, yeah, and how good the good is and how bad the bad is, yeah, I think it part of that helped to understand the little that we do know and how much more we don't know and how we live, a lot in assumptions and things like that.
Eldar:Yeah, it's hard to completely immerse yourself and put your whole life under a microscope. Under that, microscope.
Mike:Of course it's very hard.
Eldar:It's very hard to do it all the time but to have that conviction, I think is a very important one, because you can always rely on it that if you don't know the way, you might find a way, if you just really convince yourself again that you don't know nothing about certain things yeah, no, that's what I'm saying.
Mike:Like when you, when you go from really low then to really high and then you dip a little bit low, that pain is a reminder of you not knowing.
Eldar:Yeah, this is true.
Mike:This is a reminder and if you can connect the dots, you know, then it's that's. It's like a that's actually the in real life playing out of. I know that I know nothing. It's like life telling you like yo, you don't know shit. You know because you were up here. You thought you had this figured out, but here you go.
Eldar:Here you go, another test.
Mike:And it's also. It's not like it's exactly the same scenario, but it still has those roots in that like. In that like, for example, like maybe I had a relationship where with my parents where they wouldn't disrespect me in this one thing and I thought everything was good, and then a few months later they disrespect me, but in a different realm, yeah, different sphere. It's like it shows that I may have some angles covered with them but not all of them, you know.
Mike:Yeah, you know, like the side swipes that we don't see coming, you know they're still coming from the same people from the same place, right, yeah, but it's yeah, that's how I feel about that. Yeah, that yeah, that's that's how I feel about that, that's that's what I think about that, that scenario so what a conundrum right this attachment thing is man yeah, yeah, like what?
Mike:um, yeah, like what I'm learning is that, yeah, like what I'm learning is that there's so many that you don't, that you don't have um, that you're not aware of um, I think I I got pointed out to me that I think it's really difficult to find those things out without somebody else pointing them out to you.
Mike:So, I think, putting yourself in front of other people, just acting the way that you act, and then you know, being open to then hearing people give you their opinion or criticism, or pointing something out, and then taking it from there, because for me to do this right, like if we were on your own, the way that I would envision it happening, it's like, okay, I'm going gonna take a notepad and pen, I'm gonna write down things that you know, that I do on a day-to-day basis, and for me to kind of even pinpoint those, like I wouldn't have pinpointed hat on my own, yeah, like, yeah, I wouldn't have pinpointed. Like I'd say like, um, maybe it's more of a blanket one, but like discipline, right, like, yeah, maybe with I wouldn't have been like the guilt trips that you're putting on yourself, like, yeah, I was guilting myself today, you know.
Mike:Yeah, like where would I have came to the conclusion that I'm doing something that's of exercise that everybody deems good and healthy, but there is actually an unhealthy way to do pretty much everything, yeah to do pretty much everything.
Mike:Yeah, right, like you can be working out, but you can be doing it in an unhealthy way, because I have an attachment to having to do it every day, to the schedule. And it wasn't about the walking. Yeah, when I actually do like the walking, but I was preventing myself from enjoying the walking because I was so caught up on. I have to do X amount of steps, I want to get X amount of miles, and I have to do it every day, like rain, snow or like shine, like I'm going, and it's like, why? Why am I doing this to myself? Yeah, I'm creating more stress. Yeah, I was doing it with food too. Uh, with eating and nutrition, um, and yeah, yeah, so like, yeah, being open to people pointing things out to you, um, yeah, I, I, I don't know another way I mean to go to therapy maybe and kind of point these things out again.
Mike:Another person will point, somebody pointing them out to you, but yeah, without a friend, group or family or like people that you're around, if you're just acting, uh, a certain way you know, it's also very specific because I think that, uh, you know not to sound like two-doll on horn here, but our circle is a little bit unique.
Eldar:Yeah, I don't think you go into other, maybe job places or friend groups and stuff like that, where I mean, we've seen this, even with the basketball team, where certain things, the way we pointed certain things out, the way we set certain things, it was like we got crazy backlash. You know what I mean? We became the bad guys really, really fast.
Mike:Yeah, I think most people, when they're like, okay, I'm friends with this person, there's kind of like, okay, we're going to agree and we're going to make each other feel really good. And then, when it comes to something where there is a possible, maybe like um breach of values or belief system, and then, like you get to see where, where you're actually at, and then you get to see the character of both people, and then to me the friendship is then tested Uh, same with you. Know, family to me is unique because you can have these type of situations and ultimately, uh, you're always connected to your family in a different way than you are to friends. So I think that's probably the truest test in your life is your mom and your dad. That is why a lot of people have problems.
Mike:So, I would say with, those two are the biggest ones and you can obviously choose your friends. So I mean, if you want to go friend group to friend group, you can.
Eldar:Well, that's also. That's also a thing, right, if you're choosing your friend group, there's a reason why you're choosing it yeah which state are you choosing? Your friend group in? Sure, because if you're an arrogant bastard, right yeah, it's to themselves and wants to just be. You know that type of person you choose.
Mike:Very specific, yes, man oh yeah, you want people to tell you like hey, I really like this idea. Hey Volk, I think you should take the fight on 10 day notice.
Eldar:Yeah, yeah.
Mike:These guys aren't his friends? Yeah, and if they were, then he's just an idiot. Well, if they were saying, hey, volk, I don't think you should do it, yeah, and then he did.
Eldar:They might be friends, but they might just be on that level of friends.
Mike:You know what I mean, right, because that's his level of friendship yeah, like, like, uh, yeah, I guess, like, um, I would say more I'm guessing, but I would say more people have those relationships than than that well, that's what I'm saying.
Eldar:That's why sometimes it would be sure we're giving some advice and stuff like that. But, like you, like you're saying right now hey, like, put yourself in the position of a line of fire of some of your friends or family or a therapist, yeah, they can go. Hey, why do you do what you do? Like, why are you taking a chocolate bath? Right, why are you doing that? Yeah, you know who's going to ask you these questions. Where a UFC fighter, who's a champion, goes and takes a fight on 10-day notice a very short notice, which you shouldn't be doing against a very strong, skilled guy and says yes to it, there's a whole camp around you and there's all these people. I can't have nobody say hey, I'm not sure about this, this might be dangerous for us.
Mike:Well, I think those people that do choose those groups, they do think that they do know best. Right, yeah, if there's another route, that you would go and say like hey, I like to surround myself around people who are like experts in their field, like who's the best trainer, who's the best you know, I don't know person who sets the schedules, the best person who knows how to like match me up for fights, and if you have that, I think you're then saying say like, I'm basically like the vessel, I'm the fighter, train me. But when it comes to you know, scheduling or deals or money and stuff like that, I'm open to suggestions. Yeah.
Mike:Yeah.
Toliy:I think that's a totally different mindset. Yeah, yeah, but I guess in that example I I don't know if it's necessarily you surrounding yourself with particular types of person, of people, or if it's you being a particular type of way to allow people to yeah, see, that's the tricky part.
Eldar:I agree with that.
Toliy:I could put you like, let's say, elder is really good at basketball. You could, you could, like you know, let's say he does like either he doesn't know it or maybe he still does. Like we're gonna give him like the best basketball trainer. Right, if he's not like humble enough or like open to learning enough, this trainer is gonna be useless useless right. So like um, I'm guessing you guys are talking about bulk right, yeah?
Toliy:yeah right like, yeah, he could have, you know, obviously access to, obviously access to the best coaches of different things, right, right, but but eventually, in this example, he would get to the point where he has the people, where he's telling them what to do.
Mike:Yeah, see what I think, Because then he can't take that. So eventually he's going to get there.
Eldar:Yeah, I think that we can't not talk about the progression that a person goes through. Right, volk that just walked into the gym 15 years ago to train with that trainer is an amateur Volk. He hasn't fought, he hasn't won. He's not a champion, he didn't have any money. He's not a celebrity, he's a nobody. Okay, so now is the progression of him winning one fight, two fights, 10 fights, 15 fights. That's a progression of the individual where he's probably superseding the coach to some degree. Sure, right, because now he's got money, he won all the fights. He's the one who's executing, he's doing all this stuff right. So it's no longer the coach is here and Volk's down here. When we first started, I think it probably what happened was the coach is here now and Volk's the one who's calling the shots. I think that happens.
Mike:Yeah, but that's because he allowed that association to happen. Some people will say like yo, I grew with my team and it's like I don't know. Drake, for example, be like yo, this guy makes my beats and like without him, my songs are like nothing. And he's on the top and they started together when they didn't have anything.
Toliy:Yeah, but that's a maintained level of humbleness. That's what I'm saying.
Mike:This is clearly an example of somebody who didn't have this.
Eldar:This is an example yeah, Conor McGregor, I think, is an example of that as well.
Toliy:Maybe the opposite, if it's true, but just like the interviews I heard of, like Islam's coach Javier mendez, yeah, he always says that like islam is the best, like student yeah, he said that khabib is like the most dangerous fighter ever, but he always says that islam is the best, the best fighter.
Toliy:Because he said that, like you could tell him exactly, like, like what to do, or like he's always listening and learning and he will execute as to what you plan for him. And how many times do we see also in fights that there's one plan and then the? Person has all the abilities, and then they don't do any of it.
Eldar:We see this a lot.
Toliy:That happened with the Eddie Alvarez.
Eldar:Aljamain and Sean.
Toliy:Yeah, why is Aljamain throwing these loopy-ass hits against Marksman? He's doing nothing. He's playing in someone else's game. He's not doing what he's good at.
Eldar:Where we clearly see that he can wrestle people down and hold them there for very boring 15 minutes. Unless he could have done it.
Toliy:Do you think his training camp and his elite coaches were telling him hey, our path to victory is these loopy, slow hits.
Mike:Absolutely not, yeah, 0% 0%.
Toliy:So it takes, I think, being a good student and remaining, for example, humble. Because, again, that I think is also the paradoxical thing about getting information, is that you're getting something, so now you have more. Then, when it comes to mindset, wise as you know more, how do you maintain the mindset, again, of also not knowing?
Eldar:Yeah, preserving that humility.
Mike:Well, what are you trying to get out of it? I think that's what it comes down to. If you're trying to get money or status, you're trying to be a champion. I think the champion is the basketball example of like, I want to win.
Mike:It's taking away from somebody maybe who's saying, yo, I love to fight. I don't know if you're a Perea, maybe you're an Islam and you're like, you're all about the craft To me. To me, if somebody is saying that about Islam and they're saying, yo, he's a great teacher, he's always open to learning. If you rip that open, like that guy open, he, like to me, would just want to learn and he just loves the idea of fighting, the craft of fighting, and he's always open to learning about, like, how to get a better takedown, how to maybe breathe different so he can execute better. Like, that, to me, is a different mindset than like yo, once I get five fights, I'm going to be the champion.
Mike:It makes sense where, like you would take that fight early, because we did hear volk say like, hey, dana, like I don't want to sit home you know I get in trouble when I'm home yeah, so like to me that that said like, oh shit, this guy's not comfortable at home. He needs to fight to almost like keep himself busy and occupy. And there might be a money component here, like a a boredom thing, yeah. So then I'm like yo, I'm not hearing the love of fighting, I'm hearing money, I'm hearing boredom, desperation. You know, like I need to stay relevant, so like, yeah, like that's not. That to me is not growing with your team, humble and loving the art of fighting retrospect, would you say that was a thousand percent chance that Islam was going to win.
Mike:Oh my god yeah, but the house, knowing what you know now, without me knowing much about, like just the actual fighting matchups.
Eldar:Can you take this knowledge and apply it to some other fights so we can make bank or no, sure. You would have to examine some people.
Mike:Connor would be the next one.
Eldar:I'm saying take this knowledge that he just said. Retrospectively, he sees that what happened between Volk and Islam's second fight? It's clear to him as day that Volk was going to lose that yeah based on this knowledge. Now I'm saying, like, what are the next fighters that you can find, right research and find that are actually going through this?
Mike:well, conor's a perfect example. He's fighting, well.
Eldar:The thing is we need to be able to know those details where they're at now the present correct.
Toliy:Also. A good example of these kinds of scenarios is that, like Islam was offered to fight Leon Edwards during Ramadan. What did Islam say?
Mike:0% no.
Toliy:Why not Like you're going to be double champ. You're potentially better than the guy and people Muslims fighters fought in Ramadan before.
Eldar:Yeah, different ones Not him, muhammad did it. Yeah, some different did it. Yeah, which is harder to do, but they do do it.
Mike:Well, that would show me that like again another level of arrogance.
Mike:They would have to take it because maybe they need the money. They want the money. They want like the opportunity. They don't think they can get another opportunity, they don't truly believe in themselves. Like there's something going on where like Like there's something going on where, like, again, they're coming from that place of lack right, that's what we were talking about before and they're attached to something different than the fight. That's right and the art of fighting and they want something more out of it.
Eldar:It's interesting. It's interesting how you know, in the case of Volk at least, right, it sounds like he needed maybe a humbling, a humble pie. Oh, he got it. Where islam maybe needs a challenge to be less humble. And he's being challenged in that way right, like all these like things are being thrown at him like look, look at this, you're gonna be more famous, you're gonna be a second champ, you're gonna have more money, you know, and he's like nope yeah it to me just a very, a very, very interesting phenomenon is that, like um, with being good at something right and, I guess, like continuously acquiring more information about it, right um, not losing the focus of it?
Toliy:you came into it from the beginning maybe, right um, even though I get you naturally have more, you naturally are better you now, you, you, you like naturally are more, uh, knowledgeable yeah right. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like when that happens, there is like um, maybe some kind of battle between like the universe and you. That like comes to play once you um taste some levels, I guess, of whatever successes and that yeah and that kind of thing right like um the example I find interesting.
Mike:I'm going back to connor when he first started and then you heard him talking about fighting and he was talking about like, I'm obsessed with fighting.
Eldar:I just the art of fighting.
Mike:He would talk about specifically where he'd be at like a party, or he'd be around other people and they'd be talking to him and he was saying I'm only thinking about like um, like how I'm going to like set up a certain fighter and like the cadence of the fight from like a very technical standpoint. So he was talking like this and I think it's interesting. He's the most famous example, at least for USC, where he had that mentality. But then there was a clear point of action where money became very, very important and then he actually used that to be an entrepreneur, gain more money outside the ring, but then it actually took him away from fighting. Yeah, it took a toll on the fighting and I think if you see him now, we're all in agreeance. When you see him in an interview, he looks fucking bad, bad.
Eldar:But like I mean he's looking in the accordance of where he went, where he went but you know the money route.
Mike:But that's interesting because I feel like most people who would end up there would start from the beginning and be like yo. I just really want to be rich, I want to make it and, as a result of it, I'm going to learn this art. It's unique, I guess, or maybe we didn't get all the information.
Mike:Yeah, it's also our perspective on the story it could be our perspective.
Mike:So maybe from the beginning he really just wanted all the money and he was willing to put all his time and energy to give something to us. Yeah, and himself, yeah, but ultimately the money was the main objective from the beginning.
Toliy:Maybe that could be it. Well, yeah, but yeah I think that like the, the people, at least from what I, I see lots of times in like uh, ufc, for example, to bring that example. Like a lot of these people, they come from nothing right and they're very like primal and very like like in in like the matzloh's hierarchy of needs, like they're very low.
Toliy:Yeah, in like this pyramid development and they have lots of like um, childhood trauma, like attach all this stuff. So like their, their win, like their biggest win in life I guess is is maybe the success and like the money and like the fame and the recognition stuff like that but I feel like they almost didn't factor in into making it to that point.
Eldar:You're right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right about that. I mean, think about the nature of what they're doing. Yeah, they're fighting, yeah, like they're getting beat up and they're beating somebody else up yeah like.
Eldar:That's the nature of the sport yes like, imagine the type of person you have to be, like you said, yeah, like the way you have to grow up, what you have to feel in order to be kind of maybe almost attracted to this and then so, like anything else that comes, that's outside of it, especially such a big thing thing as fame, money and all this other stuff, like it's not even their field of view yeah, and then, once they get it, I think that they all come to a point with realizing that, like they didn't think they would even get to this kind of place, yeah, and now they're a bit out of place and like, well, well, is that because ufc's newer to creating like this type of celebrity?
Mike:because I think the other example would be like if you're, let's, an actor or a comedian, right, there's a certain type of trajectory where it's almost expected, if you're an actor or a comedian, if you're the best in your craft, that you're going to be in a movie, you're going to have money and you're going to get fame. So, with this example, is UFC, is it a newer type of fame?
Toliy:you're talking about no, no, where it's unexpected. No, I think these same kinds of things happen in acting and all this kind of stuff too.
Mike:But then so if that UFC fighter knows, say, if that fighter knows that UFC is an option, then doesn't fame and money eventually would come, if he knows that he's going to be the best in his craft.
Toliy:No, but I'm saying that, like you have a person who's like the bottom of the the bucket right right, like they're they've been like degraded they're. In their childhood they they've grew up around drugs and like poor parenting and like, well, not all of them, so not not, not all of them, I'm saying but like many of them sure yeah, you don't hear very many stories of like yo, like this guy, he had access to everything he came from, like a multi-million dollar household and like like.
Toliy:What do all the fighters say? Like I don't wish this for my kids yeah, right, yeah like they're.
Toliy:They're saying that like, look, if they want to do this and I'll, I'll support them or like whatever. But I like, like mike tyson, he has this whole I don't know if you ever saw like he has this whole quote on this about like he has a son and, um, I think his son initially wanted to be a fighter. Um, I don't know if he ended up doing that or not, but he told his father he's like yo, like you, don't want to be a fighter, like I'm an animal.
Toliy:He told us like I'm an animal and people pay me to inflict violence, and pain, and like, I did this because of like where he came from, I guess the type of childhood that he had, but he's like I don't wish this for you, I want you to go be creative.
Toliy:I want you to go use your mind In fighting. There is an animalistic, primal component to it and, again, I think the vast majority of people, they all, have some kind of childhood trauma or a poor, very low, low, low level upbringing where, like they don't have their basic needs, like in their like hierarchy, like met, and they have an extreme, extreme lack and they're kind of fixated on like a particular thing.
Mike:I think that's putting fighting in like a very specific light where, like throw basketball in it, right.
Toliy:You grow up also in drugs and violence and gangbanging, for example, or very, very poor, or again being treated a particular way or abused physically or sexually right. And then you make it to a particular level to like like put your family, I guess, like like on the map or something like that, right, or like be able to, like support or like be able to to get yourself out of that kind of like um situation, um, and like. You hear those stories all the time too. Yeah, I mean like football, like any, any, any of those.
Mike:like sports, you yeah, I mean like football, like any of those, like sports, you know. Yeah, I mean like I guess, but like I'm looking at the sport as like this is like a profession and a craft, like there is something that you can bring to it. Like I'm not looking at like these guys as like all broken individuals that like, yeah, sure, that's maybe their backstory, but there is something here that you can like perfect or you can at least become a professional in. So I think there's something that you can like uh perfect, or you can at least uh become a professional in. So I think there's something that they can love and, but how many actually do you know?
Toliy:yeah, like I'm saying, those are probably the best ones, though that and naturally a lot of these things that are high paying, like this from like a career, like an entertainment sports standpoint. They have a very very, very short, short, like a lifespan in comparison to other things, like you could be an accountant for like 50 years, for example yeah, you can't be a fighter for more than 10, probably like average lifespan for football is like 6 months or whatever, like 1 year like an average player like pro career what 6?
Toliy:months. Yeah, it's like 6 months or like a year. I can look it up again, but it's extremely short.
Eldar:That's crazy.
Toliy:Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, getting injuries, getting cut, okay. So in that then, or if you have a very successful career, like, for example, like a Tom Brady, for example, you can play for like I think he played for what like 22 years or something like that. That's 22 years.
Eldar:That's not even a lot right.
Toliy:What now?
Eldar:In comparison to career? Yeah, what now?
Mike:So then, based off of this, if most people are coming from this situation, then we can deduce that most people are not playing for the love of the sport and it's a money grab.
Toliy:Yeah, you have very few situations. There's a very interesting situation right now. I don't know if you know hockey at all. Or this name have, or like this name have you heard of? Like Yara Mira yogurt? Hmm, he's like the second greatest player of all time and soccer behind all hockey, hockey right, and like he retired from the NHL a while ago. Mm-hmm but he's right now he's 52. He's the oldest active professional player and he plays in like the European. League. He's 52.
Toliy:Yeah, made a ton of money. Yeah, like you don't get paid shit over there, oh you know, but he's place he's 52 years old. Like he has a great like his whole beard is white but he likes it. That's why he's doing right, yeah, he just loves it. Mm-hmm. He's 52 years old. This is like obscene Well, and he still does like decently Well yeah right, Like he's ready in the Hall of Fame, everything Like imagine. Shaq right now going to play for nothing. He's at his age now.
Mike:Yeah, like the other example I would think of is like I think of LeBron James and as good as I've just seen him recently and like his longevity, I watch him and when I watch him like maybe he has high basketball IQ, people talk about him but to me there's something in him that he's getting from basketball. That's an attachment that's not love when he likes to be talked about and he likes his status and he likes people being like yo, lebron.
Mike:James blah blah, he has his own show. When I look at this, as great as a basketball player as he is, I look at there's the other side of it and what else he's getting from it.
Toliy:And I look at like there's the other side of it and like what else he's getting from it and like that's fueling the person that we're seeing. Okay, that's what I see like for an example, like him, yeah, but I think that a lot of those variables are in. You know, the current modern day athlete Like I don't know who you can name me. That's not like that.
Eldar:Yeah, they're probably all suffering from the same condition.
Toliy:Yeah, you're talking about people that now again have Talking about back attachments.
Mike:Yeah, for the love of the game. Who's doing it? For the love of the game? Well, we were making the example today with Kaitlyn Clark and we were saying the women's game is now elevated and more people are watching it. And I was telling Eldar I was trying to get into NBA playoffs, I was trying to get into the college and there was something with the guys where I wasn't getting into and I feel like they just don't care enough. At least that's how I perceive it. It's very hard to get the viewer interested when the player's not interested. Then you saw the girls. When I watched them, they were loving playing basketball. That's what I saw, at least when they're playing Caitlin Clark or maybe the Kaitlyn Clark effect. But when I watched her I was like yo, they're just playing basketball and hooping and people are watching this and I'm like this is why you want to watch sports, because that person loves it.
Toliy:I don't know how you can make that kind of a judgment call on it.
Mike:Well, I'm making it personally for me saying I'm making it personally for me saying I'm watching a W, an NBA game and a college game and I'm not into it. And then I can watch a women's game and I have no attachment to either of them.
Toliy:I'm just, I don't think that at all. Yeah Well no I don't know how you don't have an attachment to it.
Mike:Well, I don't have an attachment to NBA or women's basketball.
Toliy:You don't have an. I basketball you don't have an. Are you comparing men's college basketball and women's?
Mike:I'm comparing just men's overall, men's college and NBA, just men's overall, to women's and Caitlin Clark right, so are you going to keep watching Iowa games next season? No, Caitlin Clark specifically.
Toliy:Okay, so you have an attachment to Caitlin Clark. Not to the camaraderie or the way that you see people are playing for the love of the game. You have a hype in her because she's a transcending athlete in the women's game that they have not seen ever.
Mike:Yeah. So I would say if I did have an attachment, it would be to watching Kaitlyn Clark and the effect that she has on the other players.
Eldar:Or you have an attachment to them, washing your brain with marketing.
Toliy:Yeah, it has nothing to do with the other players or the impact that she has on them. I think it has everything to do with your attachment and watching her play, the coverage around it, the amount of social media hype around it and the amount of like others said marketing around it.
Eldar:You're not a different color. Sheep in a sea of a thousand sheep.
Mike:But there's a reason that she gets all the coverage, though, no or no?
Eldar:No, she's very good. Well, yeah, for sure.
Mike:She has that thing. There's something different about her. It's the reason why you would watch Steph Curry. He has something different about her.
Toliy:It's the reason why you would watch Steph Curry.
Eldar:He has something different. Yeah, he said women.
Toliy:Not all women. He said that you're into that and you're saying that the way that they play the game is way more interesting, but yet you're not going to watch them anymore, unless she's playing.
Mike:Okay, so my attachment would be to Kaitlyn Clark playing the game Phenomenon yeah, yeah, you take her off.
Toliy:You're not watching any of that.
Mike:Yeah, so then the person that I'm describing would be the diamond in the rough, person who is maybe playing for the love of the game, and I'm feeling that when she's playing.
Toliy:Maybe, yeah, no, not even that.
Mike:How so.
Toliy:You like her, how good she is. Appeal yeah, you like her appeal. Maybe some of the things that she says and maybe the marketing that you also get a ton of marketing around her.
Mike:How do you assume that's an assumption, though, what You're assuming that?
Toliy:I have a very strong inclination.
Mike:Yeah, I'm watching games, right, and I'm watching her play and she's doing like, very like different kind of things yeah, if she didn't do those things, you would stop.
Toliy:You stop watching her.
Mike:That's what's interesting about her.
Toliy:She's shooting like almost half court three pointers, and she's dynamic player you're attached to watching her play has nothing to do with her love of the game or like how she goes about it or how she treats people. It's how she plays the game.
Mike:I don't think you can separate her loving the game as being translated into her game, so I'm getting to see her love of the game played out.
Toliy:How do you know that she loves the game?
Mike:Well, that is hard to say. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, but you can't like to me you can't separate.
Toliy:Her love for the game is going to. If she does love it, it's going to translate into her game.
Eldar:Do you enjoy watching Nikola Djokic? I do, oh, I know that example.
Toliy:Why he's different, but you like watching him because of the way he plays and like the things he does, right.
Mike:Yeah, but you like watching him because of the way he plays and the things he does, right? Yeah, he's different For a big guy. He passes, he shoots three-pointers.
Toliy:He's very unique for a big guy. Yeah, did you get the marketing out there behind what he said? Do you remember his?
Eldar:quotes yeah, he actually said I don't really care about this, this is a job. Yeah, he looks at it as a 9-5. Yeah, he's appealed to you, right?
Toliy:Sure, he's interesting, but he's openly saying that like he's like yeah, I can't wait to get back to my horse.
Eldar:I just want to go back home Like, this is just a job for me.
Toliy:Yeah, he's like when this job is over, I'm done with it.
Mike:I don't think about it at all in the offseason and then the season starts. But at the end of the day, like this guy puts in how many hours and like all this to become this, do you think he's just a naturally gifted farm?
Eldar:No, I think there's some natural talent, probably involved in some players.
Toliy:for sure, yeah, but I'm saying not all Caitlin Clark. You specifically like her for the media coverage around her and her gameplay, and Then maybe you you like some of the things that, for example, she might say or do, and then maybe you like some of the things that, for example, she might say or do, but I don't think it has nothing to do with her love of the game or nothing to do with women's basketball that you like. If she's gone and there's not another one like her, you stop watching it. If you liked women's basketball more than NBA, you would continue watching the Iowa team. That you're definitely not going to watch next season.
Mike:Yeah. So then what I would say is, yeah, I do like Kaitlyn Clark and the matchups that she has. Like the LSU one, that was like a race battle To me. That was cool. She brought that to that game and it was like a white versus black thing. That was very, very unique. The game against UConn, it was her versus one of the best coaches of all time. And then the championship game was the championship game going against an undefeated team.
Mike:So I mean, yeah, watching her, but again, I think it's very difficult to say that I'm not liking her because of her passion or her love for the game. Maybe it's very difficult to say that I'm not liking her because of her passion or her love for the game. You know, maybe, like it's not like some people don't show it like in an outwardly emotional way, we're like a Steph Curry I would describe as like he's like subdued and more reserved. But you see it in his game where, like the way that he dribbles, the way that he shoots, like he brings to me his love for the game and you get to see it play out by his actual game.
Toliy:Yeah, but you don't like him for that. You like him for the product that he's able to produce for you to look at.
Mike:How do you separate the product she?
Toliy:and Clark goes into the WNBA.
Mike:Yeah.
Toliy:She has the same passion, same everything.
Mike:Yeah.
Toliy:And she's just an okay player.
Mike:I don't understand how you separate Like that's part of what we're talking about what your motivating factors are.
Toliy:It could be part of it, but it does not mean that that is the reason why you watch it. You don't watch it for those reasons.
Mike:You can't see them or touch them, Philip you know what I mean, but then you can't say that they don't exist also.
Eldar:We can't, because we don't know them personally, did you?
Toliy:enjoy watching the Warriors when they were in their prime Klay Thompson, curry Green all passing and playing fast-paced.
Eldar:Yeah, I did. Are you changing that, of course, when?
Toliy:they're done playing. Are you going to watch the Warriors?
Eldar:No.
Toliy:No, you're going to watch them now because they're older now and they're not as good, I don't. Yeah, right, that's it introducing. Yeah, and not for the passion that they were.
Toliy:they might have been passionate also potentially in that time but we can't call that no, you're watching it for the product that you see, which is why, like I said, um and again, a lot of these players in the nba who are on the bench, they could have been one time in high school. They could have like like I I forget who the the um the person was in this interview, but they said that athletes don't understand adversity lots of times because they're like yo. All these people in the NBA that sit on the bench, they were all the nastiest player in their middle school and their high school.
Toliy:They were talked about in every single newspaper and revered in their hometown as crazy averaging 30, 40, 50 points a game Untouchable. And they get into the NBA, and then they just sit on the bench.
Eldar:And they've never experienced this before.
Toliy:But they could have dominated in college like a Jimmer Fredette, right? You remember that he was shooting from almost half court and he goes in the NBA, doesn't even play.
Mike:Yeah, I still like. How about my man?
Toliy:McClung bro, yeah, he actually won G League MVP.
Eldar:Oh great, At least he got that.
Toliy:Yeah, but you're like you look at this and then you can't even make a roster.
Eldar:Yeah, it's terrible.
Mike:So you're looking at somebody's action on the court as like.
Eldar:I have a conspiracy theory on that. So you're able to create at the moment.
Toliy:One thing that happens is that when somebody is good at something, we pay more attention to them, and when they have that good product, we like to make up a lot of these storylines that they have that someone else could just be not showing. An example of that is the Knicks he's on, that someone else could just be not showing right. An example of that is that, like the Knicks, he's on the team now, but he was before and into the later stages of his career. I don't know if you remember Taj Gibson. His name is. He's a big guy, right Like. Anytime you see an interview with him, he's like yo, I know I'm not going to play, he's like, but my job is to be be uh, make sure I'm excited, excite my teammates and be there for them be there for them wow I'm not gonna get in the game, but I'm gonna support them okay, he's like I'm older now.
Toliy:He's like I'm just happy to be here yeah and be a part of this and be on the bus rides and the planes and the practices. Yeah, that's a. That's a great attitude. He could be very passionate. Love what he do, you're not going to pay attention to that storyline Because you can do shit. Right, you throw Curry out there.
Eldar:He's probably more passionate than some of the people that are starting five.
Toliy:Exactly that's what I'm saying. If Kaden Clark continues her thing, let's say she goes in the WNBA and she does not do well.
Eldar:And she's just like a sub or like an okay player.
Toliy:Because you're watching 15 points a game. It's gone.
Eldar:You like to be part of the fireworks?
Mike:But again you're looking at them as a product. You create a storyline from that.
Toliy:You magnify something and you start saying oh, what you're talking about is attachment.
Mike:Yeah, wow. So the passion is separate from the product, the emotion is separate from the product? No, it could be together.
Eldar:The emotion is separate from the product. No, no, no, no it could be together.
Toliy:It could be together, but product is first.
Eldar:So the product, especially for consumers, bro, yes, we really don't know. Like we weren't there when Kobe Bryant shot a thousand free throws, and you know, at six in the morning, before the game started at 6 pm. Like that's passion, bro. Like, like that's passion, bro. Like you weren't there, you didn't watch that footage, you didn't come over there and ask, like yo, I want to see what he, what's behind the scenes. You know what I mean.
Mike:That's passion, but you but what I'm saying is you get to see that thing translated into his game Sure, but not all of them have that, but once you do, you'll have an idea. You have an idea. Who right Like? Okay, we can't pinpoint it right Steph Curry, michael Jordan right.
Eldar:Like these people have like a different level of, I would say, interest or like love for the game. Well, no, because some can, like you mentioned, some can be naturally gifted and big right, yeah, but eating McDonald's before the games and stuff are like completely out of shape, right and, but eating McDonald's before the games and stuff completely out of shape. And Djokic you said he's just like he doesn't have. That it's not the same thing. Sure, he probably practices, but he's looking at it as a job.
Toliy:He doesn't look at it as his passion After he already won are you excited about the victory parade and celebrating the teammates? He's like no, not really. I just want to get back to my horses and serve.
Mike:But I'm talking cream of the crop. Right, he's the cream of the crop.
Toliy:He's potentially about to be three-time MVP. You understand Three.
Mike:I understand. He's a unique player I'm talking about, like Steph Curry, michael Jordan, like transcendent players. Caitlin Clark is being described as a transcendent player, trendsetter. When people are talking about most impactful players of all time, they're saying Steph Curry because he's the best three-point shooter of all time?
Toliy:Is it possible to have a crazy amount of dedication passage and passion and love for the game but not be as good as somebody else Dedicated love and passion? Can you teach Victor Bambagnana's?
Mike:hype.
Eldar:You can't teach that you can.
Toliy:but when it matches up and you see this thing play out, yeah, but it's the product first, and then you start seeing the storylines afterwards and then you also start to make them up to be bigger than they actually are.
Mike:Can you guys name me some player actually who you believe that loved the game of basketball for what it is Like? Specifically loved the game? No.
Mike:I don't know why anybody has that impression. Because if they actually were able to genuinely love it, they would be enlightened. No, they would be doing it in such a way not how they perform, but everything they do around it. In basketball, yeah, because you can't be a fucking Buddhist monk in basketball and then everywhere else, just running amok it doesn't, to me at least, when I use the word love. Maybe Phil is using a different kind of thing. We'll have to define those terms then.
Mike:Yeah, like it's probably more passion.
Eldar:Passion, passion, my passion, which is which, then, we have to also describe what that is, yeah I would say there's a handful of people that I'm thinking about a lot of it probably has to do with a lot of attachments yeah, I think it is hard to pinpoint it.
Mike:You can only take people like for their word right in interviews and then be like, okay, based off what they're saying michael jordan, kobe brian, steph curry right, those would be like in my three. Everybody else to me like off the top of my head, maybe, if you name somebody, but those are the people who are on my gill. The way that other people describe them of like practicing them, what it was like, how they would prepare and then watching them on the court and how they made me feel it's like okay, I'm creating my own example, so it is subjective, yeah, so then what? What I guess?
Mike:michael jordan didn't love basketball. He loved beating everybody at basketball yeah, so yeah.
Eldar:And he's like work ethic is not necessarily love. It could be discipline so yeah of so.
Mike:So so his is maybe more on the competitive side he's more of a competitor. Yeah, and I and I liked and I liked watching that there you go. Yes, now you're using the right terms to describe what phenomenon you after so being uh what you?
Toliy:like might be like murder. So being a what you like might be like murder.
Mike:To be like a competitor yeah, like beat people in such a convincing way and in style yeah, there you go, and that's also what they said all along their years.
Toliy:Like Colby had that killer instinct.
Eldar:And Bob Ron doesn't Okay. So that's what.
Mike:I'm saying so, I'm not saying it's passion or love so it's watching their particular style and we're saying that style is part of their product and they're like brand essentially. Yeah, you can say that he was ruthless, that's okay.
Toliy:Yeah, nothing, though None of these things. You would not care about any of them without the product. The product comes first, because that's what gives you the entertainment. And also the marketing yes, and also marketing naturally, naturally happens behind a good product and not a bad one. Yeah, they're not going to be like yo, we're going to cover this guy because he has a big heart. Right, we're going to cover this guy because he's nasty at the game.
Eldar:Right, you don't watch basketball games on mute, do you no? Alright, then you know, because the basketball players are not talking on TV, right? Unless the only time I did.
Mike:I put it on mute recently when Doc Rivers was an announcer.
Eldar:I couldn't listen to him, okay fine, but you see right, it was bad yeah.
Mike:It was bad or no? Did you hear Doc Rivers announced basketball games or no?
Toliy:No, but I also don't like him. Oh God, bro, that was bad. Who's more passionate, eldar or LeBron?
Mike:More passionate About what.
Toliy:Like who can you like? Just maybe a passionate player Like Eldar, or just someone that you watch on TV?
Mike:For basketball yeah.
Mike:It's not a trick question.
Mike:I mean like, if I watch, I watch like Russell Westbrook, and who could?
Toliy:you make a more definitive claim about who's more passionate Eldar or someone that you watch on TV?
Mike:Yeah, I'd say like Russell Westbrook is, like, probably one of the most passionate players of ours. I'm comparing.
Toliy:Again, like if I said Eldar, or somebody that you watch on TV, that like.
Mike:I said Russell Westbrook.
Toliy:Okay, so you view Russell Westbrook as more passionate than Aldar?
Mike:yeah, if I had to pick one, okay he was an idiot we're saying we're saying passionate. Being an idiot might be hand in hand the thing that they said about him was that, like like every game, he would give like a hundred percent like every game. It was like an energy and effort thing. What about me? What about Uncle Eldar? I play with a sprained ankle all the time I'm giving an example of somebody I have to pick he tries to make people who are potentially physically and mentally disabled better.
Toliy:Give people, chances and all that. You don't come watch him play.
Mike:He's not on TV, I've only seen Eldar, probably. How many?
Mike:times have I seen Eldar play versus Russell Westbrook. I have an unfair bias.
Eldar:Every time I play it's a fucking performance, bro.
Toliy:That's how I feel. Do you guarantee Philip courtside seats?
Eldar:I do.
Toliy:Without paying.
Eldar:Yeah. And courtside every time, yeah, and the yeah and the passes and the things that I do is a fucking.
Toliy:To me it's magic and door to door chauffeur service as well, I wonder why an individual wouldn't take someone up on that offer because they're not very passionate because there's not enough hype around there's not enough hype around you
Eldar:you're nobody. Well, no, we know that this is about Philip's, you know, like desire for fireworks.
Toliy:Yeah, but does he?
Eldar:Oh, that's a good question.
Toliy:He just said he watches WNBA because, like they love to play the game, you know.
Mike:Well, no, I said college, College, yeah, yeah.
Mike:Well, that changes everything. It sounds like you need to go get us a glass of whiskey? Yeah, you not watch college, unless you're that one hype athlete. Yeah, when did you start watching college, by the way?
Eldar:I only watched this game because Phillip told me about it. He hyped me up on it and I was like yo, this is cool. Yeah, I like it, but yeah. But the truth of the matter is, if you zoom in on each girl and how they dribble the ball, how they shoot, yeah, they fucking suck bro yeah, and like the coaching also in college sports is.
Toliy:It is completely different than like an nba yeah like well, yeah, like college sports, like it's more like Aggressive in the sense of like getting reprimanded and like oh yeah, yeah, You're not gonna make in 30 million dollars a year, you're gonna go yell at him. Yeah, LeBron James. Yeah, LeBron yells at you.
Eldar:Yeah, you, that's the other way around. Or a grown like woman, right, yeah, yeah, so like it's different.
Toliy:And people I agree in the fact that people generally like. And people I agree in the fact that people generally like gravitates more towards that or like, stuff like that like, if you like, for example, defense, not watching NBA no, yeah, defensively, this is a known thing, yeah college has defense you see every there's no fast break because everybody's like tight, tight on them like that, because you're going to get your ass reamed if you're not, or you have to be really good, like this girl who knows how to pass properly.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:Yeah, and I have a feeling.
Eldar:She could break that defense.
Toliy:I have a feeling that when Phil watches Kaylin Clark on the team that she got drafted on the Indiana Fever, he's going to feel the same way that he felt about college basketball when watching that because he's going to watch her play. Okay.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:And college basketball will then be dead, unless they're again or in college basketball Like I don't really watch it except like the end of like the March Madness, like tournament, but like when Zion was in and you saw like those dunks and like the stuff, like that.
Mike:Yeah.
Toliy:That was entertaining as hell.
Mike:Well, the thing that you hope for is that she inspires parody in the league, where there's the equivalent of, say, steph Curry, then you have a Trey Young, then you have Dame Lillard, then you have all these other guys, where you're like, oh shit, now there's other guys also doing this. You're like, okay, multiple people have this type of exciting game. Then you're like, okay, I would say that the shift is like instead of saying you like the league, it is a like a player driven league. I bet you, if you do ask anybody, like, oh yeah, you like nba. Like there's probably a couple of players that they that they really like, so like, I would say the same for myself.
Mike:Then like, if the players that I like, like kawaii leonard, I always like right, but all of a sudden he started to sit out a lot. He started to like um, you know, do this type of rests? You don't watch them. I'm like yo, a lot of these players are taking this kind of stand where they can sit out. They can kind of milk their injury. They're still getting paid.
Eldar:Well, there you go, right. What's happening is now. You're the guy of passion, right? You're like wait a second. Why are these guys not so passionate anymore? They're not going for their passion. Right, jordan played it with a fever. Right right kobe bryan played with a broken finger or something like that. You know, like sure, like that's what you want to see, right you?
Mike:want to see grit. Well, let's just say like, without passion love. Right to me it's just like it's toughness and like dedication to like, just as a professional person right yeah, it's like showing up to work, like how dedicated are you yeah, and like know how dedicated they are.
Toliy:How do you know?
Mike:I mean, you can only go on the basis of what you're hearing, right. So what you're hearing about a Kawhi Leonard is that he is specifically resting when he's not necessarily injured.
Toliy:Yeah, but people also say that he permanently walks with a limb, that he's completely injured. He's immobile outside of basketball like just for him to warm up and be in like a game ability, Like it takes like a whole day is worth a shit. So you might not be thinking. You might be thinking that like he's not trying, but he could just be like you know and like like or like Kumar Usman champions, as he can't fucking walk upstairs.
Mike:Yeah, but then. But the NBA had such a problem with it where they created a rule where you have to play X amount of games. So this is not, this is a world, this is a universal thing so like to me if it was only one person and like they were looking at Kawhi Leonard. He was a star and like, okay, yeah, maybe he has a condition or something, and like he's just getting bad press.
Toliy:They. Is this getting bad press? They wouldn't have had to create a rule to get these players to play. I don't know if it's on the player or it's on the team, that's doing it.
Mike:It doesn't matter what it is to me.
Eldar:Phillip is clearly displaying a form of attachment.
Mike:Yes, the people that started this you just want to put that out there, right.
Toliy:The people that started this was the Spurs. Yeah, this is who started this.
Eldar:Yeah, of this was the Spurs.
Toliy:This is who started this. With. Tim Duncan, man of Genoa, and Tony Parker. They had such a good team that they knew we're playing the Pistons. They suck. We're going to give Tim Duncan a rest.
Eldar:So they can do better later or whatever.
Toliy:They could be 100%, but that's the team making that decision, not Tim Duncan saying like yo guys, I don't want to play. Well, that's actually a strategy thing. That's a strategy thing. Nba is like no, no, no, people are paying more for this game because Tim Duncan's on this team.
Eldar:He's going to score 50 now.
Toliy:And you're sitting him out. People are not going to pay money for tickets because, okay, wade, lebron and Bosh are in against the shittiest team. Which game all season is going to be the most expensive game?
Eldar:The funny thing is that's my strategy. You know what I'm saying, where I try to play everyone Because it's not that serious sometimes, you know what I mean.
Mike:You have to be able to take the information that you're given. There is the truth, right? You get what you hear and then you're going to see the product. We're calling it a product. Me as the viewer, I'm watching this and I'm seeing the product, and the product is not getting me interested.
Eldar:Then you have to find out what the fans are actually wanting to see. Are they there to just watch people perform and entertain or do they want this team specifically to get a championship? Because if the team and the coach have devised a plan to rest the players right so they can be better in the more important games, like playoffs and stuff like that, right Qualifiers and stuff like that, that is the right way to do it. So the fans should raise their hand and be like yes, this is a good idea, and like I'm not mad.
Mike:If that's the case, I don't think the product would then still be interesting when everybody's on the court, right.
Eldar:Well, there you go. So what are we talking about? So there's something off. Everybody has their own agenda as to why you watch it. No, it's not that something's off.
Toliy:It's just that people have different types of priorities. And when the Pistons lose 25 games in a row, like they do this year, yeah, for example, they did even more. I think they broke the record Right when, when a team comes, that's very good. They know that we could just have our subs in why, why would I?
Eldar:yeah?
Toliy:Going to go in, why would I use up there for 30 minutes and?
Eldar:make a potential injury.
Toliy:What's our goal as an organization? Win a championship. What's your goal as a fan? See the players right and when your city has a shitty team, that's all that you go there for is most of the time.
Toliy:the opposing team With the Pistons' most expensive game, I guarantee you, in the regular season was against the team with the most superstars on the other team, and those, coincidentally, are the games that they want the players to sit. Nba is like no, no, no, no. We know you want to win championship, but they're all about money and they're like yo, this is bad for the league, so we're not allowing this. That's their stance. And now they force teams to play. They can't just sit players. They have very strict rules against that.
Toliy:And again, this was all started by the Spurs. Well, against that. And again, this was all started by the Spurs.
Eldar:It sounds like they were smart.
Toliy:They're trying to beat the system.
Eldar:Very smart.
Toliy:This team sucks. We don't need them.
Eldar:He's right, I agree with him. In the grand scheme of things, I agree with him, but if I'm paying tickets to go there, I disagree with him.
Toliy:It depends on what your priority is, you could say yo, Tim Duncan is like lazy and not passionate, but he could also be gated around like the decision of the team or he can maybe also himself understand the bigger picture. It's like yo I need to be rested and ready for the playoffs.
Eldar:Or the game that's necessary for us to set a tone with the other team, for example, who's better right?
Mike:Yeah, you guys are talking about strategy and I think again, if everything leading up to that is then okay, the best and the best have to play at some point, right. So to me that's like the culmination of the strategy sitting out doing all that and then you're watching the best play the best I'm still not. And then you're watching the best play the best I'm still not interested To me.
Eldar:I'm not getting. I think you lost interest, probably for many different variables.
Toliy:I'm losing interest somehow Not around passion.
Mike:There's something about the same product. We're calling it product and I'm saying that there's something around the product. And the last I would say for me, nba probably five or six years maybe give or take, and NFL is then, and you guys got me like UFC and we were talking about it. We're like yo. When there's an element of violence, there's something about that person's level of interest.
Mike:Where, like if you're going into a fight and I'm like, yeah, you know what, like I don't care if I get injured, I don't care if I get injured, I don't care, really, I'm going to get paid, no matter what, you're going to get your face beat in bro.
Eldar:But still, we still find anomalies right when people go in there knowing that they have injuries because they're going to get a paycheck and they're idiots, yeah Right. Or Volk, who wants the fame, who wants this, who can't sit, still who? I back myself, I back myself. They make that decision and then what do we get? We get a first round knockout.
Toliy:I don't understand what your point is around that because it's like the money shows that basketball has been amazing, has been better than ever. I don't agree with that at all. Where it's like, the last five, six years or so, I've been boring. Golden State has been extremely fun, even when Miami Heat was playing together with like LeBron, that was extremely fun. Because you have everybody against them, hating them, yeah, hating them.
Mike:I like that. That was in 2015.
Toliy:Well, I'm just giving an example Like that the Steph Curry things with Golden State.
Mike:Again, that was probably 10 years ago. The Steph Curry things with Golden State Again, that was probably 10 years ago, golden State and Steph Curry.
Toliy:When they were in their prime. I mean they just won it like three years ago or four years ago.
Mike:Yeah, but that was like towards the end, like they had a run and then they had Durant. Yeah. And then I think it was like 2019 or 2020 was their last run. So that was about like at the five-year mark. That's what I'm saying, no mark, that's what I'm saying.
Toliy:No, they won after.
Mike:Durant. But once they started to go on the decline that was my level they won after.
Toliy:Durant without Durant. And what year was that? Just a couple of years ago they won with Wiggins and the team they pretty much have now.
Mike:Yeah, I lost interest, I think after the Durant.
Toliy:Yeah, but it does not mean that the product is worse. It's just your personal interest in in it. But it's also it's not always necessarily that the actual sport itself is worse for the teams itself it's worse. It's just um either your coverage toward towards it or your own personal biases. But these sports, um, like nba, like nfl, exponentially grow financially, which only happens through people spending money and people watching. It doesn't happen when you have a dog.
Mike:Shit it doesn't mean it's good.
Toliy:It is good.
Mike:No, that does not mean it's good. It means it's showing that it's good to others.
Toliy:It might not be good for you.
Mike:No, no, no. But you can have great marketing and you can have a monster market.
Toliy:You can have a UFC has been around all of these years and we've been enjoying the fuck out of it. And you just started, but it was still happening. You just were not aware of what was going on. And the same things could be happening in NBA, in NFL, in baseball.
Mike:Yeah, but just because a company is growing monetarily doesn't mean it's a great product. You can have great marketing and just a big audience, and they're all a bunch of idiots. Yeah, but just because a company is growing monetarily doesn't mean it's a great product.
Mike:You can have great marketing and just a big audience and they're all a bunch of idiots.
Toliy:Phil has, I think you have very large biases in how you personally feel and not like the reality of what's going on?
Mike:Yeah, but do you think just because a company is growing financially means it necessarily has a great product?
Toliy:Well, I think that like, not necessarily. Yeah, not necessarily, but like but probably. But in most cases probably, yes, yeah people are voting with their money Just because it doesn't appeal to you, or, like I was giving the example that, like UFC, has been popping for us for a long time.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:It was still popping when Phillip was not watching it. Yeah, and it could be starting to get popping for him now, but not unless it was still popping.
Mike:But, I wouldn't say hey, I don't like UFC. I would say hey. I'm not watching. Ufc Right now. I'd be like yo I'm trying to watch NBA games and I can't get through a game because of the product I'm not interested in.
Mike:You don't watch NBA games like that. He only goes on hype right now. When Clark is hype, he'll watch that, and after she's done it should be boring. The new guy who comes out in whichever sport is hype, he's gonna watch that.
Mike:He's not watching anything like full you guys are gonna be totally wrong with sports.
Toliy:I think we have you on the button here no sports, sports.
Mike:I've been watching like for forever, but like when? You just start watching uh wmba, but I didn't say I watched wmba no, what does that mean?
Toliy:watch like you're.
Mike:You're watching like either clips, highlights, or like uh yeah, but like you're making a joke now, because, like I'm referring to like tiktok and stuff, stuff, you just asked me hey, philip, did you watch the game? I tuned in to watch the TNT game and I was watching LeBron James versus whoever they were playing first, the Pelicans or something, okay, so I was watching a playing game. So I'm like yo, okay, nba playoffs is coming around, I want to try to get interested for the playoffs. So I wanted to watch a playing game. I watched, I would say maybe that game, the game. After there was like four playing games, maybe I watched parts of two of them and I just couldn't get into the game.
Mike:But that doesn't indicate the game is not boring. It's more indicative of your inability to stay focused for a long time. I remember when you first came around, we started talking about TV series. You're like oh no, I can't watch a whole TV series. I need to watch it in two, three.
Toliy:You couldn't get through like a 30-minute show. I can't picture you watching a 30-minute game.
Mike:Yeah, but it doesn't mean like NFL. Did you guys hear me talk about NFL, or no?
Toliy:Yeah, but you watch Red Zone, that's like the anti-ADD thing. Yeah, but it shows in one show.
Mike:So what? I'm watching all the games and if I really like a game.
Toliy:You're not watching all the games You're watching. Highlights of the games.
Mike:No, I'm watching every game. And if I do like a game like, say, like the Eagles, I would say if the Eagles are playing, I would go to Channel 5 or whatever it is and I would specifically watch that game. Why I wouldn't want to watch, it is because Red Zone offers commercial free. There's no commercials.
Toliy:There's no reason if you love football, you like Red Zone because you see it's a permanent reel of highlights for eight hours straight.
Mike:Well, no, you get all the games with no commercials. Why would I watch the same game, unless you really love that team, which I love, the Eagles, right, like if I had to pick a team. So I know when Jalen Hurts is playing and it's a good matchup, I'll specifically tune into Channel 5, deal with the commercials because I'm going to watch that game. And if Patrick Mahomes is playing or something and I'm like yo, this is probably going to be a good matchup, he's going to be exciting, I'll go on CBS and I'll specifically watch that game because I want to watch that game. But if not, why would I want to watch a game when there's no commercials on it?
Toliy:Red Zone, to me, is probably the best product that they have. It's two different things. Red Zone is just perma-highlights.
Mike:But it's the actual game.
Toliy:It doesn't show the full game of any game. You don't watch any full game of any game.
Mike:Sure, and I'm telling you why because there's no commercials.
Toliy:No, because they only show the main scoring plays.
Eldar:Wow so let me. There's no commercials. No, because they only show the main scoring plays.
Toliy:Wow so let me get this shit because I don't know nothing about red zone.
Eldar:Okay, red zone, hold on one second. This is what I just heard. He said that you see a full game. You just don't see like timeouts and all this other crap.
Toliy:You do not see a full game at all.
Eldar:You don't see a full game of anything. You're saying that there's just literally just passes and touchdowns and runs and stuff. Do you know what red zone is?
Mike:Yeah, you guys have been talking about it.
Toliy:What's the red zone?
Mike:When they're about to score.
Eldar:Oh, it's only for scoring.
Toliy:The red zone is when you're within 20 yards, so within two first downs.
Eldar:That's all they show.
Toliy:That's what it is, and it was named after that, because you'll be watching one thing and then they'll zip over to something else because this team's about to score, and then, when that team scores, you won't see that for a while.
Mike:Are you aware of this, Phillip? Yeah, red zone is the 20 yard. Yeah, but that's not a full game. Then, phillip, you just said yeah, it's not a game.
Toliy:You can't watch any game Everyone likes it, because you could watch every game, the best parts of every single game there's definitely not the game, then, yeah and it's it's ultimate yeah add like you're fucking hooked yeah because but but for example like I gotta see this once if I'm hungover or I'm really tired. I don't even put it on because it's too much for my head oh my god because imagine yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah.
Eldar:At the same time, it's too much and they're flipping through like like you're on crack. Oh shit.
Toliy:Yeah.
Mike:So they'll show scoring plays and then what will happen also is like there's two different there's morning and then there's afternoon.
Eldar:It doesn't seem like you know what's going on at all.
Mike:Well, that's what I'm saying In really like a particular team, then you would tune in, but then again you're subject to commercials. The advantage of Red Zone is that you're not getting commercials and you do get plays. They do do replays and they do do others. So, yeah, you are seeing a lot of scoring, but there are times where there is downtime, where there isn't a bunch of scores and they will show other plays of a game that isn't necessarily a touchdown.
Toliy:You'll lose your mind.
Eldar:Yeah, well to me, when I watched the game with you guys, like and I watched the full game, right, we watched the Super Bowl. Yeah, I saw very intricate details that I saw that swayed the game. You're telling me that if I was watching Red Zone, they would not show me those things. You would not know what the fuck actually happened and why the game was either won, or lost.
Toliy:You might see that, but then you're not going to see the game potential for the next five to ten minutes because nothing is happening.
Eldar:Oh, so they'll show me just a regular kick, but Elder there might be 10 or 12 games on at the same time.
Mike:So if you like a particular team, you're going to sign in and then watch them on another network, but you have to watch commercials. So, I'd have to really like that team and I would watch a full game.
Eldar:See, I think the real fans probably sit there and watch the actual game from A to Z, because there's so much that is going on and there's so much content that is going on and they're so passionate about it that they will digest it and dissect it and then you know well, you have to have the whole bone zone is an extra.
Toliy:Yeah, no, it's completely there, because I know that people love this, because it's that, it's the anti-add. You cannot have add yeah, you watch every game at the same time and you see the best highlights of every game. It's a permanent reel of it.
Mike:So you'd have to have 12 tv TVs in order to be a true fan then, or you'd have to sign in and just watch one game.
Toliy:No, no, no. You would have one TV and you would watch one game if you were a true fan At a time yeah.
Mike:Of a particular team yeah, like I'm a fan of the Eagles, so I would watch that Of the Giants. Sometimes I'd probably watch them, but I would probably watch an home game. There are certain games where I'm like yo, I know I want to watch this full game, yeah. And then there's other times I'm like yo, I'm gonna probably put this on in the background and I want to watch, like a mishmash of games yeah, but also good for for betting.
Toliy:People are betting a bunch of shit what are you gonna fucking scroll through all the channels and do that? Yeah you can see all your live shit happening at the same time you see everything scoring but it's also not educated.
Eldar:Then no, no.
Toliy:No, no, again, it's for people that won't like it.
Eldar:They don't tell you like, oh, this guy just got injured. No, they're just showing you highlights. No, no, no, it's not.
Mike:You're watching it in real time.
Toliy:You're watching it in real time, not all of it, no, you're seeing replays?
Mike:sure, just by default. Yeah, sometimes you do watch it, but when they're showing you an actual play, they're showing you real-time plays. Sometimes you might get a replay of another thing, if it's like a touchdown or something like that, but you are watching this thing. If it's at 1 o'clock, you're watching all the 1 o'clock games at 1 o'clock, so it's just a matter of piecing it up. And if you're okay with seeing little bits and pieces, of each game.
Eldar:Well, I'm not that interested to know, but I'm just interested to see how it plays out.
Mike:NBA doesn't do that. You'd have to watch a whole game. So again for me to be interested in it. I'm trying to get myself interested in an individual game.
Eldar:Again, I think they're pointing in the right direction, that you actually like the buzz around these types of things, and Red Zone is a good product for an individual like yourself. Yeah.
Toliy:And totally as well. Yeah, I don't think that like what I'm saying is necessarily like an insulting or bad thing. I think that you primarily just like hype things right, and whatever is hype at that time and marketed correctly is what you like. And in maybe very rare cases will you actually slow down and pay attention to the intricate details of the thing that you might claim that you're either passionate about or really like. And I just think it's like a labeling thing of like what do you think you like versus maybe what you actually like, and what do you call these things? You call that college women's basketball is more captivating than NBA. No, Kaitlyn Clark is more captivating than maybe what you've seen in NBA right now.
Mike:Yeah, that I agree with. So Kaitlyn Clark, watching her play. I saw her play multiple games with the UConn LSU. Every game that I watched I was like yo, there's something about this, I'm interested in this game.
Eldar:Because you compare men versus women and you can't say that, Kaitlyn Clark, you can't find Kaitlyn Clark's, many Kaitlyn Clark's guys on basketball the skills and capabilities sure. There's plenty of guys that can like.
Mike:That's what I'm saying. There's definitely a disparity between me watching guys who are more skilled have more ability, more physicality.
Eldar:There's plenty of them out there.
Mike:But there's something about watching this, it's new.
Toliy:Maybe it's Only because it's hype, but again, like you, eldar, there's no way that you will enjoy watching women's basketball.
Mike:No, I got him to watch Eldar. Did you not enjoy watching?
Eldar:Kaitlyn Clark basketball. That game I enjoyed it. Yes, that game I did enjoy. Yeah. Because I saw something that I've never seen before in girls.
Mike:Yeah, me too. That's why it's new and you will never watch it.
Eldar:Yeah, I'm not going to go out of my way they're slower.
Toliy:Yeah, they generally can't dunk, they can't shoot like quick shots. They have to be a very set shot.
Eldar:They're not creative.
Toliy:No, the game is just completely different and it's overall a less superior product than what you see in NBA yeah.
Eldar:Right, and the reason why I was relating to Kaitlyn Carr is because I thought she was bold and I like that she's bold.
Toliy:Yes.
Eldar:You know what I mean. She does bold things. She throws passes really well and she shoots the ball like boldly.
Mike:Yeah, so if your measurement in product being good or not is like who's faster and who's more athletic, then you would say NBA like no question, do you associate like Diana Taurasi, as like the Kobe Bryant of women? Or like the Jordan I don't know her like that.
Toliy:The older.
Mike:I don't know who this is.
Toliy:Diana Taurasi.
Eldar:I don't know who this is. No, you don't know her. I've never heard of this person.
Mike:I know her, but I don't know her game. Who the hell is?
Toliy:this. She's like the nastiest women's player Right now. She was at UCI.
Eldar:She has WNBA.
Toliy:Well, she's a little older now. I've never heard of her. But she was like the Kobe Bryant.
Eldar:I remember Rebecca Lobo, bro Remember.
Toliy:Rebecca.
Mike:Lobo, she was at UConn, no or no?
Toliy:I don't know if she was at UConn.
Mike:Diana Taurasi.
Toliy:But could be. But she's an all-time leading scorer in women's. I thought she got big in college and she was like a champion in college and then she became a WNBA and she was the best player for a long time. Yeah, like recently. She's still very good. Recently she's fallen off, right.
Mike:Yeah, I know of her, but I never watched her now.
Eldar:Alright, so now that we clearly identify Phillip's attachment, that, he's not. We've clearly identified.
Mike:Well, yeah, we're saying that, like I clearly see it.
Toliy:I don't think he's. Well, yeah, we're saying.
Mike:I like individual players and I like the hype behind them, so I do agree with that. I do get excited when there is a person.
Eldar:A product, marketing behind it and there's a hype.
Mike:So the reason that I do like the product it's good. And then there's marketing behind it, because they realize, okay, this is a good product, okay, we want to make it even better, even better, and then they get you. So I'm getting excited. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, there definitely is that for me, but then there's also too, like I do, like individual teams and players, that, like I will like why are you hiding behind that?
Eldar:Well, no, I'm saying you don't have to just just drop it, Philip. Well, no, I'm saying you don't like these teams, man.
Mike:Well, no, I'm saying I'm watching like an Eagles game.
Toliy:Right Like no, you're not watching an Eagles game.
Mike:Well, no, I watch probably like four or five, five of them like in full.
Toliy:Like I do enjoy watching Hurts.
Mike:I like the Kelsey was the center.
Toliy:I like that they had you watching the Eagles game. When Jalen Hurts is out, you watching them with a backup quarterback, marcus Mariota.
Mike:If they had. I don't think we had to do that this year, but I think last year they had. Who's the guy with the mustache that I like there? They had him two years ago that I like there.
Mike:They had them two years ago. Are you watching the game while it's in the background, or is it actually you sitting there the whole time watching it?
Mike:Red zone. Sometimes I will put on in the background, but then, like if the Eagles game is on, I'll watch it because I'm like yo, I'm interested in this game.
Mike:You're glued 17 loads of laundry. You're not doing.
Mike:That game I like because they have AJ Brown, they have Devonta Smith the wide receiver, so there's multiple players in that team. That I know offensively they're exciting, and then defense, they were supposed to be really good.
Toliy:But there's also plenty of teams that have good weapons around them. You take away one player. You never want to watch a game ever. Oh yeah, this is football. Just like that One thing he's not an Eagles fan. He likes Jalen Hurts with healthy like, for example, good receivers.
Mike:Yeah, right.
Eldar:Because they're together.
Toliy:You take away. Jalen Hurts one player and you have a backup Right, like the New York Jets. This just happened, right, everybody. Aaron Rodgers, you know this and this he gets hurt on the fourth play of the first game.
Eldar:Oh, first game yeah.
Toliy:That's it Gone for the year Dead.
Eldar:Nobody's interested. Nobody's interested.
Toliy:Ask Philip how he felt in the lead up to the game and in the pregame ceremony. Just ask him that question.
Eldar:How'd you feel?
Toliy:Oh no.
Mike:He would use a word that begins with an E.
Eldar:Emotional yeah, excited, not emotional, excited not emotional.
Toliy:What's the e-word? What was the ceremony and the whole thing?
Eldar:no, I was excited for it electric and I know, what he's talking about because I watched this.
Toliy:It was sick, see how many he gets injured. Ask me how many jet games he watched. The rest of the year.
Mike:No, no, but I'm not a Jets fan. I wouldn't watch the Jets yes, you would.
Toliy:With Aaron Rodgers you would.
Mike:I'm not a Jets, you Aaron Rodgers. And if he comes back, he would With Aaron Rodgers, he would. I'm not Jets, you're Aaron Rodgers. And Aaron Rodgers is about to play.
Toliy:And if he comes back and he does well, I guarantee you he'll want to watch Jets games because it's going to be very interesting.
Eldar:You're going to kill sports with Phil now. That's next.
Mike:You killed the hat? Yeah, but he's saying something very obvious though.
Eldar:He's saying that like he's saying that you're just a hype artist that's watching the sports.
Mike:No, but I'm telling you that there's one specific team that I'm watching.
Toliy:But what?
Mike:he's saying is true, then he's saying that there is no fan in football. Then what he's saying, no, there is no. Because then you're saying what can happen to Jalen Hurts can happen to any quarterback. So that means that only anybody that's watching football is only watching them because of the camaraderie between the offense.
Toliy:No, no, no, no, no. There's plenty of people that will watch it, no matter what.
Mike:Okay, so with the Eagles, you asked me if Jalen Hurts is not playing. If they have a decent quarterback right and they can have—.
Toliy:You heard that.
Mike:So if they do have a decent quarterback and they can be a team, would I watch it. If they have a bad quarterback, I mean I don't know, I'd have to see what it looks like.
Eldar:Yeah, because if you're saying that you like the team and if the team overweighs, with one player, your decisions over one player, then it's not true, and that's also something that the league identifies.
Toliy:This is why they make all these rules to protect who?
Eldar:The fucking quarterback. They don't care about them.
Toliy:They protect the receivers, don't blindside hit them anymore.
Eldar:Don't hit them at the knees. Why? Because they realize when you have stars in people watch, you have Patrick Mahomes.
Toliy:Take him off right now to Kansas City. This is Kansas City. Who gives a fuck about this middle, nowhere Midwest team.
Mike:No one gives a fuck about it. So if people say they like teams presently constructed how they are, why are people watching anything? Then why did people watch the Warriors? They like the team constructed presently how it is and how they worked as an offense. I like Joe Burrow and the Bengals when they're playing and it's like Jamar Chase T Higgins and all of his receivers playing. Well, I'm watching them 100%. Tom Brady. I'm watching him presently constructed.
Mike:I don't think, then okay, saying you're an Eagles fan or a Patriots fan, you're fans of the offenses and how they are running, as a tandem with the coach and all the players, as we need to dissect this, because then we have to like really zoom in on, like, why do we watch sports?
Toliy:Phillip is a is a sports slut.
Eldar:He is right.
Toliy:He's a sports whore.
Mike:A cheap one.
Toliy:Cheap one.
Mike:He just needs bright lights.
Eldar:We'll go from thing to thing with his highlight, which is completely fine and I enjoy that as well, but you have to call things for what they are.
Toliy:Yes, yeah, I never watched WNBA Pretty much almost never. I watched just a little bit of Kaylin Clark. To me it wasn't even a thing, because, again, like yeah, she's doing bullshit.
Eldar:But like I don't enjoy watching the girls' games, I don't enjoy watching a lot of NBA games Plus, they said on Twitter, on X, they said that she probably keeps it hairy. Yeah, keeps it hairy.
Toliy:Yeah, you saw it right, that's fucked up.
Eldar:Yo yeah, but if she keeps it hairy you stop watching.
Toliy:Yeah, he likes a clean shave no, he likes a clean come on nothing, nothing, zero a lot of the sports are designed for the cash fan. This is what they I agree with you.
Eldar:I agree with you with that this is what they make. I agree with you. I with you with that. This is what they make them for. I agree with you. I do agree with you. And I think that's why sports, I think, is actually detrimental to people.
Toliy:Yeah, did people watch. Ufc a lot before Conor McGrady. No no.
Mike:Conor had to make it right, put it on the map. Everybody knew who he was. Your parents knew who he was.
Toliy:Your siblings siblings knew who he was. People don't pay any attention.
Eldar:Your grandma in Uruguay knew no. But again, at the end of the day, we're talking about us being gullible as humans to marketing, and us being sluts to the hype, which is the truth.
Toliy:The cash fan will only watch in those kind of cases.
Eldar:Yeah. The hardcore fan will watch the real fan Early prelims.
Toliy:Like we're. We're going to watch early prelims. We're going to watch. Ufc, with or without Conor. There's people that watch it only when he fights, because it's like an event.
Eldar:It's a whole thing.
Toliy:There are lots of times to the cash fan. The individual players are bigger than the sport or the league itself.
Eldar:And that's why the sports. Identify those and they milk them as much as they can.
Toliy:It's bigger than the whole WNBA, which is crazy, yeah, which is why Nike is going to give her the shoe deal. Yeah Right.
Eldar:They have to.
Toliy:She got a $20 million shoe deal. Her salary in year one is like $70,000.
Eldar:Yeah, I know, and the $20 million shoe deal yes, crazy.
Toliy:Yeah, the season. The team didn't even select her yet. Yeah.
Eldar:Indiana yeah.
Toliy:And then the season tickets not only sold out, but they went up in price like five or 10x.
Eldar:Get out of here.
Toliy:Because they knew that they're going to pick her.
Eldar:Obviously she's a trans-athlete, oh okay, but they didn't pick her yet.
Toliy:They didn't even pick her yet Because there you know that 100% going to get picked fast, wow, so she sold out. They sold out and, like the tickets, astronomically went up. Same thing for this season for Iowa right.
Eldar:Her college team yeah.
Toliy:They're like, like what they say. The cheapest ticket was like $600 or something like that.
Mike:Yeah for an NCAA game was like a stupid amount.
Toliy:For a girls college game. They're all the way in the back. You want to sit up front.
Eldar:You're spending tens of thousands now she's gone, probably get a whole season for $600. No one gives a fuck anymore when I go to Iowa, iowa wait.
Mike:So for UFC, if the product starts to fall off, would you still like it? Because you're just saying that, like if you're saying that you're a UFC fan, right, and then the product starts to fall off.
Eldar:I have to think about like based on we discussed. I have to think about why I'm a fan.
Mike:Yeah to me redefining and defining what a fan is and then saying, okay, yeah, maybe I only like this team presidently constructed. I like the way that the fans boo like they're fucking hard fans. It translates If you're a Philly fan, you'll see. If you watch baseball games they're known for having really rowdy fans.
Mike:Then you're like okay is that really a big part of why I like them. Do I just like the current offense constructed If they get a new coach or they get a new quarterback? Do I like the team itself or do I like individual?
Toliy:players. I remember when we were talking about this, you watched Philly's baseball games.
Mike:Oh yeah, they were great. Their fans were great. I don't watch baseball. I watch baseball for that. And Bryce Harper, you watch a game on a baseball game on TV for the fans, because the fans are great. Yo, they were crazy good. You see You're a hype guy For baseball. I would say the game itself I was not interested in. That just shows.
Toliy:How many Phillies games did you go to in person?
Mike:I never went to any sporting events, really at all. I would say that's crazy, because to me live events and stuff like that and I like music, but to me go to a concert is like um, I don't know.
Toliy:We like, we like UFC, and to me we, I think no, but we love.
Eldar:We like UFC but we don't like sometimes the prices that happen around UFC. We will. I would go to every event, but sometimes it's not justified bro.
Toliy:But it's five, six hundred dollars. We still buy every event and we still watch. No, no, that will do but a lot of things. But what I'm saying is that we watch it and I'm telling you that, like we have shown that the stars that come and go, we've already transcended that, like we're not in it for that one star that could be gone. We know how to. Yeah, they do that. But also, ufc is captivating for us because one, they put on a great like production. They put on a great product. Yeah, they're very good at marketing it correctly. Yeah, right. And also, this is a huge, huge factor and a reason why we hate another, for example, sport Right, ufc is very good at matching up the right people and fighting.
Toliy:Yeah, and they're very good at putting the best fights together.
Eldar:A lot of times we question, we have a question mark like what's going to happen?
Mike:So that's what I was asking.
Toliy:Boxing we don't like because you have like Floyd or Canelo or whoever fighting some bums that like shouldn't even be there Minus 4,000 5,000. Do you watch any undercards or anything? Tell me this.
Mike:But that's what I was asking If UFC adopted boxing mentality. So that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. To call yourself a fan it's always subject to something that can always change, like a quarterback changing an offense changing. That's what I'm saying Defining a fan is almost like it's a. It's a difficult thing to say no, no, no, no, no I think that's why we go and transition into.
Eldar:The next question, maybe for next week, is what makes up a fan in the first place? Yeah, why do you become a fan? Why do you watch what you watch, and why, do you cheer for what you cheer?
Mike:Yeah, a fan.
Eldar:and then like yeah, because like now I'm thinking I'm trying to apply that to myself as to why I'm attracted to UFC. Sure, I'm a basketball guy, bro. I play basketball, it's my favorite sport. I don't fucking fight, I don't do none of this jiu-jitsu bullshit. You know what I mean. And I don't watch basketball anymore.
Mike:Right, what happens? There's some kind of disconnect.
Eldar:I like to play it, but I like to to watch UFC. See, there's some kind of thing.
Mike:Yeah, you got me to watch UFC, so I'm like yo.
Eldar:I'm watching. Well, I'm a good marketer of it because I like it.
Mike:You know what I mean. I know how to market it to you. I'm watching undercards.
Eldar:I'm coming to your house and watching the preliminary pre-fights, exactly because I can show you what I'm seeing and you get to be interested in it, sure.
Mike:But, but you can only do so much, and then I have to be able to watch it and it has to deliver also, like, yeah, you were hyping it up to me.
Mike:And then eventually, at some point, okay, like if the product was like an absolute, like shit show and they were slapping each other and then, just like, falling to the ground, it was, like you know, fake, like you know, at some point the product has to match up to the hype, like I was saying, like if there's marketing behind it, there has to be an inkling of like this is a good product and we want to inject it with steroids so it becomes even bigger.
Toliy:But the money speaks. I'm guessing you saw it on X as well. They put out a list of all the entertainment and fighting companies and what they are worth and what they make.
Eldar:I didn't see that yet.
Toliy:UFC is one, WWE is two but UFC is like two like wwe is like worth like six point something billion. Ufc is number one in all fighting stuff worth um 11 point something billion. They have like matchroom boxing top rank towards the bottom not even worth a billion dollars yeah, yeah, yeah so like they say, like boxing is big, but boxing is not bigger than ufc, they have like p number 10, something like that. Like we don't watch PFL Bellator, any of that kind of nonsense. Yeah. We don't get that marketed pretty much at all.
Mike:But I think it's also because UFC probably has the best production.
Mike:We also want to be marketed to. We do yeah, we do yeah the production on UFC is top tier, like the actual, like the actual, like the arena, the way they set it up, the way that they do the entrances like.
Toliy:It's very real and authentic, and you know who's obsessed with production.
Eldar:Who's that Dana?
Toliy:White, dana White. Yeah, this, he always shits on boxers Like yo. You see this what?
Eldar:they're doing.
Toliy:Hbo has been in boxing for ages and it shows yeah, it's just trash, you see something that happens, he's like we're going to have that clipped and ready to be highlighted within seconds of it happening.
Mike:Yeah.
Toliy:Like the angles they take, and he actually said I think it was either at the last press conference or the one before that. Like they asked him like hey, like what do you do today? Right, he goes my job is to make sure that we have the best production, the best employees. I can put together the best show every time he's like that's my main thing yeah he's like.
Toliy:I'm also involved in matchmaking, but not as much as like hunter and yeah and their people yeah, and time to time I do, like you know, big company decisions yeah his thing is to oh and and he likes the contender stuff Finding new guys, new talent, this is what he likes and this is what he doesn't, but production is what he's obsessed with. He always talks about this, always.
Mike:Yeah, no, it shows You're watching a production and I think about it like if I'm watching a movie or something. People are like, okay, what do you like about this? And a lot of people are like, oh, cinematography, like how it's shot, yeah, like where they shoot it. They on location. Are they using like CGI and like computer generated images that like make it look cheap? Right, like an inauthentic, yeah.
Toliy:So, like that goes for anything, I think, production quality. I think it was in his last press conference he tells a story about how he grew up a huge fighting fan. He was mainly into boxing.
Toliy:And then he said that he was bringing up particular famous boxing commentators. He said that there would be a sick matchup together and he was like the commentating and everything they would shit on the fighters, badmouth them, ruin it for the fans, take away from their moments and stuff like that. And then he said that, like my focus is to make sure that like that's never done and that we're not going to do that and that yeah we highlight the fighters and we promote yeah, yeah yeah, like he, he basically liked it saw something shitty about it yeah
Eldar:and ran with it, knowing that she understood what was better. Yeah, yeah, good, yeah, yeah, I mean, listen, we're, we're, we're fucking clients, yeah where's clients?
Toliy:yeah, and again the fighters come.
Eldar:They go like we're still here, we're still here, but if ufc again not like you. Man kaylen clark left bro, he's not gonna fucking watch it, yeah, if they fundamentally change.
Mike:If they fundamentally change like how they go about uh scheduling fights and like doing matchups fighting a contender first fight ever.
Toliy:It's probably going to be dead very fast. That's not what's going to make money. People like UFC for the reasons that what boxing doesn't do.
Eldar:Yeah, best, fight the best, and that's it. They don't care, it's not about records.
Toliy:Yeah, how many times have you boxed versus 30-0, versus 75-0?. What the fuck.
Eldar:We don't necessarily care about the record of the fighters.
Toliy:Yeah winning in UFC like 3-4 fights in a row is like crazy.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:Unbelievable, like legend status is, like where Islam is, or like Charlie was where they won like 9, 10, 11 in a row. That's crazy. Yeah, floyd Miller is 50-0.
Eldar:You understand 50. He fought a lot of good guys, but that's crazy.
Toliy:Floyd Miller is 50-0. You understand he fought a lot of good guys, but 80% of that record is people that you've never heard about? Yeah, it's wild, or remember they were showing Tommy Fury's record of the people he fought. He fought one guy who was 4 and 100.
Mike:But you still never got Mayweather and Pacquiao in their prime, because he kept pushing it back and pushing it back. But you still never got Mayweather and Pacquiao in their prime.
Eldar:Because he kept pushing it back and pushing it back.
Mike:So you never got that fight. So they fought, but we're not satisfied, Even though he beat him you're like yo what would have happened five years ago.
Mike:Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, I think there was a video I saw it was Dana White talking about what you were saying. I don't know where he found Joe Rogan, but I don't know if he was on a show or he saw him somewhere. And he was saying that because of his level of passion. He was like I want to put this guy here to like convey to the fans that, like, this is exciting because, like he was saying that there was like a barrier to entry to UFC where people were like yo, this is a really violent thing, and people were almost turned off by it in a sense. And they were like that Joe Rogan's level of passion and interest in this thing is going to convey to the audience. Like hey, it's actually okay, you can watch this thing.
Mike:And he wasn't badmouthing the fighters. He was like yo, I love this, this and this about this fighter. And he was hyping them all up Like genuinely, this is what he said. So, like that is, just think about that type of If you're talking about product and your level of interest. He did it to every detail.
Mike:Up to the guy who's talking about it Tell me this.
Toliy:That's pretty cool. Does Joe Rogan commentate UFC for the money?
Mike:No, he doesn't, no way no, he doesn't, I don't even think he did it from the beginning for the money.
Eldar:No, so it's for the passion, yeah, yeah. So what are our final thoughts for Attachment? Or do we have any more extended thoughts for Attachment? Sounds like you have a pretty, maybe healthy or unhealthy Attachment to the lights, to the glamour to the fireworks.
Mike:I definitely do like the hype.
Eldar:You like being the guy that likes the hype only? No, I'm okay with that.
Mike:We were defining. We have to define fan and what it is.
Eldar:You're a cheap date, you're a cheap date, yes or no, what you're saying is insulting to him.
Mike:No, I would say that it's being defined properly and calling it for what it is Like. If we're saying that, yeah, like I'm attracted to, like a quality product, I think that's what.
Eldar:So you're saying that he's in the defense mode right now.
Mike:100%, well, no, but I think we're trying to say like what we all like about a certain thing. Yeah, we're trying to say what we all like about a certain thing. I'm asking you you guys like UFC, you like the matchups and you like quality product. There is a quality product behind what's going on.
Toliy:We don't only watch main event ranked top one fighters. Watching Kaitlyn Clark would be like Khabib and Conor.
Mike:I'll throw you a bone Sure.
Toliy:That's like me. We watch the prelims that like you'll never want to watch yeah.
Mike:So I would say then, like, if we're going to talk about like you're a fan, and then like I'm more hype with sports, I would say like then, uh, movies like I'd be probably willing to watch like an independent movie. Uh, because, like I like maybe movies more so than I like sports. So like, if we're going to maybe define fan, I'd probably fall more into the category of fan for a movie than sport, where sport I'm probably more into hype.
Eldar:Let's not ruin the movies for you. We started with the sports.
Mike:Well, I'm saying we didn't define it yet. I know.
Toliy:I'm watching no independent movie unless it has a top actor in it or the top director.
Eldar:Oh please.
Toliy:No, I'm not watching independent movies.
Eldar:Oh, here we go, see, but you're he's not like. Joey Batts, who goes to the movie theaters himself to watch the weirdest things. Bro, stop it.
Mike:Stop it Not on one day?
Eldar:Zero chance, not on one day. Yeah, yeah, phil, you still have to go home and relax.
Mike:We're going to eat tomorrow, he said he's going to watch a Sergey Mifflin film.
Toliy:Yeah, in the woods, In independent shit. He's watching James Cameron. Sorsese the top guys. Or you got to have a throw one of the best actors in there. You got to throw a Denzel in there. Denzel in there, Brad Pitt.
Mike:Well, no, we're talking about quality of product, right? So, like quality of product, there can be a number of different things that go into a quality of quality. What is it? Well, I'm saying you can have like an independent where it's like not Warner Brothers, like a major studio, where, like, they release something, where like and like the I'd say like 90s and like early 2000s, like a rom-com was like a big one, right.
Eldar:So he's not sitting through my dinner with Andre.
Mike:Oh my god, I never watched it, of course not, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like it.
Toliy:You would have to be put into a torture chamber To watch that.
Eldar:We would have to staple your hands. Is that the homework for Monday? Put them in there. Yes, yes.
Mike:If it's a quality movie.
Toliy:It's one of the best movies I've ever watched in my life.
Mike:So why do you think I wouldn't like it? Because it doesn't have the glamour.
Eldar:Yeah, it doesn't have the painted nails yeah, see, we just hope that you don't take the yeah, See, as we're defining these type of like in terms of like like I'm not looking at like a movie, as like sitting down through it like as a chore.
Mike:Yeah, all right fine, yeah, where sports is. Well, if we're talking about sitting down through, like, let's say, non glamorous sports, let's say we're saying there's a we're going to.
Toliy:you have like a button that when it's pressed like you know that thing in Deal or no Deal, like they press the button, they get the deal. You're going to make him watch that movie. If he hits the button, we turn off the movie and we go to any restaurant he wants everything paid for. Wow, he's going to press that shit in 10 minutes.
Eldar:In 10 minutes.
Toliy:Wow, are you kidding me?
Mike:So, you're saying dinner at Andre is difficult to watch because it's a slow paced movie or something. No, no.
Eldar:Listen to me. I would recommend for you to watch it, obviously because I think there's a lot of good gold nuggets there or the fountain. The fountain yeah, there's a lot of good stuff.
Toliy:The fountain is fancy compared to my Dinner with Andre is like yeah, dinner with Andre is the thing.
Eldar:No, the other one is man from Earth.
Toliy:Oh yeah, man from Earth is going to be after that. Oh, we got some juicy ones for you.
Mike:Yeah that's it. We have homework for him, right.
Toliy:We have great independent films for you to watch movies.
Eldar:Can you believe this?
Mike:That's pretty cool.
Eldar:That's very cool, all right.
Toliy:So, Mike, you were going to say something. Have them show a trailer of each of those and then throw in some other big box office ones.
Mike:Yeah, all right. So I'm watching three movies next week and then you're gauging my interest and what they are.
Mike:We're not gauging your interest we're going to throw Phil a bone, but I'm not sure if he wants it.
Eldar:He has a long day tomorrow.
Mike:No, this is for his benefit.
Eldar:Okay, fine, sure.
Mike:I was going to say, when you guys were talking about the UFC stuff and Toto was saying he loves it, he likes to watch and stuff, I was going to say to Phil now tell Toto that you can watch UFC, but you can't talk about it with Aldar during after before. That's also part of the experience Sitting talking with your friends like we're acting together, all that stuff it is. You watch UFC, sometimes on your own.
Eldar:I do.
Mike:How is it compared to watching it with others? No, it's different. It's a big difference, for sure, but it's so much more interesting, but I do enjoy it still. But I do enjoy it still, yeah, nonetheless.
Eldar:And then when I watch it with you guys, it's definitely a more highlighted experience. Yeah.
Mike:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I was trying to take a job at you. Make a joke, yeah.
Mike:So what I found is that you know, watching sporting events with people is definitely more fun than like watching it on your own. Yeah.
Mike:But that's the thing you got to call for what it is watching it Same thing with traveling. I used to say I like to travel. No, I don't like to travel. I like to travel with friends. I like to watch UFC with friends. On my own? Am I going to watch? Ufc it's not the same. No, because even watching that show, that stupid show, what's it called? Love Island, Love is Blind. Yeah, it's great to watch it on your own, but to be able to talk about it chop it up with friends.
Eldar:in the moment it's not great. To watch it on your own is good, and to watch it with friends is great.
Mike:That's the same thing, yeah, and I think that's another factor of it.
Eldar:Right, it is a big factor, I think it is a big factor, and I think what you're talking about is what that one guy said in that other movie, into the Wild, which you also have to watch is that happiness is when it's shared. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, right, because.
Mike:And I think Phil is sharing, but not like directly. Yeah, but that's what he's looking for. He's sharing with millions of people because they have this ideology. They're all watching the same reels. Yeah, they're all doing the same reactions.
Eldar:Yeah, there's a thing together, because he's kind of like guarded.
Mike:And you know, for some reason he's, like you know, a little bit reserved. He can't do he. Maybe he, you know, was scared to do it before with people that he knew close.
Eldar:Yeah, because he got burned or had some beef and other friendships.
Mike:So he needs to do it like he does it like on that thing, but as he becomes maybe more empowered yeah, he'll be more engaged more engaging with other people more uh and and live like he's coming out to UFC. He's reacting, he's doing his fill, he's even betting man.
Eldar:He's having real emotions.
Mike:UFC and sport I definitely like as a group. I remember what I found is that when I used to go to the movies, I didn't like to go with people, I liked to go on my own. I didn't like when people talked or I didn't like when people had questions.
Mike:I didn't like when people talked or I didn't like when people had questions. I found that movies to me had a different element where you almost wanted to be one-on-one with it and it was more about you being plugged in, getting what you get from the characters and then talking about it after is still fun because you want to have the conversation.
Mike:But I feel like with sports, there's kind of like an emotion and there's a camaraderie. You want to watch that and you get more hype during it while you watch it with other people, that's been the difference.
Eldar:Especially if you're cheering for the same team or same fighter, and that's why, I wonder, is that his attachment to sports?
Mike:Because it provides him something that he cannot generate on his own?
Eldar:Wow, and that's why we all have attachments. Now, that is a very good question. My relationship with the girl.
Mike:Yeah, all the stuff that I loved about her was all the stuff that I didn't have for myself.
Mike:You can't replicate it as like a.
Eldar:You definitely can't suck your own dick the way she sucked you off.
Mike:She didn't even want a nipple bro she wasn't giving me the, but a team sport right. It's almost impossible to replicate that as an individual. You watching a team sport UFC maybe.
Toliy:You definitely can't play basketball by yourself. We're not talking about that.
Mike:You're talking about the emotion of what you're getting from watching the event. It's a lot of factors.
Mike:It's not just emotion. It's emotion, it's connection, it's focus, it's patience, it's concentration, it's focus, it's patience, it's concentration. It's so many things that are happening, whichever things that you're lacking in, that you are trying to extract for very brief moments from something else externally. You know what I'm just trying.
Eldar:I was trying to picture what you just said, if I was to apply this to myself and if I was to go watch like a college basketball game by myself and get excited by myself without telling anyone. That's a weird experience in my head because you're a very social person. Yeah, hardcore fans. It's a very weird experience like actual hardcore fans.
Toliy:For example, if you see how they're like depicted lots of times in like movies and stuff like that, you know you go to the local bar. They people know you there. You have your know you go to the local bar. They know you there. You have your, your buddies there you go to games like there's a whole yeah, there's like a whole connection.
Eldar:Connection there.
Toliy:yeah, that you don't get right Like there. There there's a funny guy on on ESPN, chris Russo. His nickname is. He was on a. Is that it? Yeah, a serious exam. Like Me and Phillip Also find them funny.
Mike:Oh yeah, he's great.
Toliy:But Like he'll watch like the Super Bowl and stuff like that, and he'll be on TV, they'll ask him, like Yo, what are you gonna do? He's like yo. He's like I'm gonna take my gummy, make a cocktail.
Mike:Oh, I saw this clip.
Toliy:They're like yo don't. I told my wife don't even talk to me. I don't want to see you that day Like I want to watch my game. I don't even want to talk to anybody. Don't call me, don't bother me.
Eldar:Don't text me and like this is his thing Like this is what he does, yeah.
Toliy:He's like I'm going to call my bookie throw 10 dimes on this. I listen to lots of times when I drive. I listen to sports talk radio. You have people calling in. They're all kinds of upset, like yo. I can't believe, you know, like this coach, like he doesn't know how to do this. I can't believe it. He's letting us down they're all invested and they're calling, calling into the show. They're like they're basically just like an emotional mess, they're part of it.
Eldar:Yeah, holy fuck yeah.
Mike:Okay. So what came to my head was hearing that right, they're attached to some winning, they're attached to something inside of them. That's getting excited the identity, bro.
Mike:They identify completely with that fucking thing. There's identifiers there, but then I'm thinking to myself of going to watch a sporting event. There's I'm thinking to myself of going to watch a sporting event there's a competitive element. There is a winner and loser. So if you are naturally inclined to watch a competitive sport, going on your own, without maybe betting or without other people, there is a competitive element. So there is a winner or loser and there's a yin and yang. I think that's a different environment than I'm looking at a movie and how a movie would get built, and it's a collaborative environment where, like everybody's on the same team and they're all working towards like a similar goal to make a product and like they're not working against each other. It's more creativity and collaboration. I think that how that product ends up versus the competitive is a different product.
Mike:The movie is made for sure in the team, but the story is not necessarily told like that. There's always an antagonist and a protagonist in a lot of stories.
Toliy:If you're talking about that thing, then you're talking about the NFL as a whole. Yeah, Like the NFL as a whole is building the movie of this game. And there's again one team versus another team.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:The NFL wants everybody to kind of.
Eldar:Enjoy NFL.
Toliy:Grow and wants everybody to kind of enjoy NFL grow and stuff like that. They're the producers of the movie. But the actual yeah, Mike, Mike, Mike is right, yeah, the actual, um, like sport itself or the game itself, there is a winning and losing and in the movie. There's a good guy, there's a bad guy winning and losing, and and the NFL as a whole is a production and in the movie, whoever's making it, they're on the same team. Yeah, no, they're right.
Mike:Yeah, so the people on the actual production are on the same team, the football owners of football teams.
Eldar:They're the producers and directors of all the shit.
Toliy:They don't want to sell tickets. Who buys and can't buy? They're like yo. We don't want that guy in there.
Mike:Well, you're saying that because they're creating the narrative behind it. But then the actual game itself there is a winner and a loser, right yeah but that's the protagonist and antagonist. So like in the actual film itself. So I'm separating the actual production itself.
Eldar:You tried, but I don't think you're right about this.
Mike:But the production on both sides you're saying has the good and bad built within it, the characters inside the movie, the movie itself. The movie itself. So protagonist, antagonist. The thing is, we attach to different characters in different movies.
Eldar:The sport is inside the movie itself. The football game is inside.
Toliy:And that's what you also like. You like a captivating character, you like a comeback story.
Eldar:You like a hero.
Toliy:David versus Goliath. You like a hero, or you like a bad guy that eventually just gets beaten. You like the equalizer guy, who's out for justice?
Eldar:So listen, at the end of the day, it's again. We have to dissect how do we actually enjoy and what we enjoy in these sports, because this actually might be taken away from who we actually are.
Mike:Yeah. So like, what are you actually liking about watching UFC basketball football? What are you actually?
Eldar:liking about a movie or a television show. Yeah, you start idolizing the problem is the idolizing of those heroes.
Mike:Yeah, like, am I actually watching it the quarterbacks?
Eldar:Yeah, because I like it or I actually enjoy it, or are you looking up to someone because they have some kind of aura Right right, yeah, I think.
Mike:Defining that as a fan, what the product is, what you like, and dissecting each part of it yeah, production, or like whatever it may be, about a movie, television versus sports, and then seeing what you like about it.
Eldar:What are you looking up to? Yeah?
Toliy:like. I definitely watch a good amount of Rangers games, for example, from start to finish. I don't watch any other games, so I'm definitely not a hockey fan.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:But I watch a ton of like definitely more than half their games from start to finish. Yeah, okay, you know, but I don't watch any other games.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:Because I'm interested in the storylines. You're watching it. You're watching it, but you're not necessarily paying attention, right yeah. No, no, For that I'm paying attention.
Eldar:No, I'm going towards the fact like I don't really care who wins. I want the person that I bet on to win. Oh yeah, you know what I'm saying. Like, if I have conviction, I want them to win, of course, before I had more, like, oh, I would love for him to win. It's a nice story and all this other shit.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how I get into it.
Eldar:I don't think it's more of a driver anymore Now you have a different horse in the race. I have a different horse in the race. I want to see some. For sure, I don't like Cody bro, yeah, but I saw that.
Toliy:No, no, you like to I don't like Cody no, no, in the betting element, I think at least you like to see, like you watch, something. You get like a knowledge over time and you like to test that knowledge and see it.
Mike:I want to put money on it. That's your only competition, against your own knowledge, against my own nonsense. Yeah, again, that's something that we're doing.
Eldar:Am I right about what I'm seeing? When I saw Figuerero shaking a shot, I'm like what is happening here.
Toliy:But, we still continue at times to get upset. We don't factor in all the variables like yeah, vertigo, yeah, like injuries, what the fuck is when we're like yo, we won the first round, and that was exactly what I was saying.
Eldar:Oh yeah, we're gonna win. This is.
Toliy:This is what's happening, because I I've seen this, yeah and yeah, and I was telling we're better on the feet I was telling you the fight, I was like yo, yeah, I want to take him down yeah, because you saw, he was not better than him on a feat.
Eldar:He was not better. And I think he realized that and his team told him and he executed it properly. Yeah, yeah, I think that. And his fucking vertigo fucking fucked up my whole money. What happened with the vertigo? He had a vertigo, bro, who did?
Mike:Cody, oh, really, I wasn't there.
Eldar:His head started spinning.
Mike:He didn't know what he was case of vertigo bro, when he said it's in the post fight interview.
Toliy:Yeah, no, no, no he put this out and and on like instagram oh, okay, he's been suffering from vertigo since what the hell?
Eldar:that's great, but this was like it flared up. The fuck. That's, that's wild. So yeah, a lot to examine. I mean, again, it's it's socrates question like why do you do what you do? Why do you like what you like? Yeah you know, what is it? What's the reasons? Give us the actual reasons and a lot of times we really don't know. And if we do, if we start getting called out, we're like, oh shit, yeah, I'm not sure if this was it yeah, and these sports lots of times.
Toliy:They already know they don't need to do anything for the hardcore fan. That guy is gonna find shit that's right they're in their. Their goal is to get more people involved, and that's more casual fans.
Eldar:Yeah, catherine, she's not a soccer fan, she's not a sports fan.
Mike:You know what happens when we have, of course, I know.
Eldar:You know what happens when we have fucking World Cup. Bro, right, Where's our jerseys. Can we wear our jerseys Go to the bar? What, what? This is ridiculous to me. Where's our jerseys Jersey? Yeah, can we wear our jerseys Go to the bar? So what? This is ridiculous to me, more like this thing with Taylor Swift. I told her I was just ridiculous bro.
Toliy:Right, this thing with Taylor Swift. Yeah, All of a sudden you have all these girls saying yo, they love football, Trying to watch their husbands. The husband's like yo ridiculous. Yeah, yeah this is the type, this is the market.
Toliy:They want and they and they saw the the up the rise in sales yeah, everybody wanted a t-shirt, jersey, jersey.
Mike:Yeah, because they know more viewers, they know this human psychology.
Eldar:Yeah, well obviously they study it and they have marketers who psychologists and all this other stuff to.
Toliy:Yeah, get the cash players want this more because their salaries exponentially go up and we see it.
Eldar:The average bump is $20 million. What the fuck that means they're doing something, right yeah?
Mike:Poor Phillip's expense though.
Eldar:Why you guys gotta put it like that. I'm not watching basketball.
Mike:I didn't influence the basketball decision you didn't contribute to that stuff. The NFL one yes, I did watch the Taylor Swift games and all that.
Eldar:So yeah, At least you came clean to it. All right, fine, they got you there. Listen, I even went with the Kalen Clark stuff, man. I went with you man, I went there with you man.
Toliy:Yeah, I agree with you. You didn't get out there to watch the Anthony Edwards. That's the guy. I've been showing you the highlights of oh the dunker I like him a lot.
Mike:He's 22.
Eldar:You put me on John Morant. I was like holy shit, who's? This guy Anthony Edwards is nasty June put me on that.
Mike:Yeah, easy to watch him and he's 22.
Eldar:That's crazy 22.
Toliy:He just was able to not drink like a year ago. That's sick.
Eldar:Alright Phil. Final thoughts on attachment.
Mike:Yeah, on attachment.
Eldar:You're well-versed in it. Yeah, definitely well-versed in it. You like defending it as well, right, well, like, does that come with it too? Hold on a second. Does attachment come?
Toliy:with automatic defense mechanism. Oh yeah, hell yeah.
Mike:It's involuntary, it will defend it's involuntary. It's crazy. You don't have a choice.
Toliy:What is that?
Mike:it's ego it's you trying to identify yourself, who you are in the world, and you have to protect it at all costs.
Eldar:So that's a crazy manifestation, then that's a crazy manifestation, it's a crazy week taking away everything. Yeah, manifestation then. Yeah, that's a crazy manifestation. It's a crazy week like uh yeah it's all fucking taking away everything.
Toliy:You, yeah, your power, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, all those attachments are all piece of you. And then like, uh, the representation of that to me like a like you know you like my monster terms? Yeah, lots of things right in in the last uh harry potter uh series yeah voldemort. He spread himself out with a bunch of things.
Eldar:And to kill him.
Toliy:You have to kill all those things. Yeah. Right, so this is like. The similar thing is that when an attachment dies, like a piece of you dies.
Eldar:Yeah, well, I agree with that.
Toliy:Yeah, that's why you protected.
Eldar:That's a mental suicide. Yes, I agree with this.
Toliy:That's why you protected to the death. Yeah, to give birth to your true nature, one more movie reference.
Eldar:What was the topic we were talking about right before?
Toliy:the sports, this one, oh, like, yeah, okay. So we were extensive into attachment right and like the perception, oh, and like we were talking about the fame getting to you and all that kind of stuff. A very, very, very crazy sick representation of this in movie format is the rocky movie. I don't know if you guys saw it, um the one with tommy gunn in it. I don't know if you've seen that one yeah yeah, you've seen it with, with, uh, with, with the jack blonde hair.
Toliy:Yeah, when he became, like uh, his student and stuff yeah, yeah, he was begging for him to teach him right yeah um, and then that guy in the movie is in it. The guy in real life was a boxing performer, the famous one with the crazy hair, ron King.
Mike:Yeah, ron.
Toliy:King is in it, right yeah. And this kid was like this young, hungry fighter knocking everybody out every fight. He begs Rocky to be his coach and he's like I'm not, no coach. You gotta go find the coach yeah. Leave me alone, kind of thing.
Eldar:He's like I'm just a fighter.
Toliy:I used to fight. Like he's already older, he doesn't fight anymore. Yeah, yeah yeah, right.
Toliy:And he follows him around and keeps asking, keep asking, keep asking him, and he eventually says like all right, fine, like you know, let's try it Right. And he, he coaches him and he does well and well and well, right. And then there comes a breaking point where now he starts to get fame, right and now. But, as that's happening, he's doing really well. But the media is giving all the credit to Rocky. Oh, because Rocky's a famous one. The big draw. Yeah, imagine right now, Mike Tyson started coaching somebody. Yeah.
Eldar:That person was doing really well. Yeah, mike, yeah, imagine, right now Mike Tyson started coaching somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that person was doing really well, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were nobody before that.
Toliy:They were Mike Tyson, they gave all this credit to Mike Tyson, and what happened in the movie is that he started to hate Rocky.
Eldar:Mike Tyson. Yeah, oh, rocky, he started to hate.
Toliy:Rocky. Yeah. And he started to get jealous. Oh. Right yeah, and he wasn't that person that was running Begging him to train him.
Eldar:Yeah yeah, you've completely forgot about that already.
Toliy:Completely forgot about that. All the fame got to him.
Eldar:Yeah.
Toliy:And the movie eventually fights him.
Eldar:Wait what.
Toliy:You got to watch the movie out there. It's a sick movie On this topic. Yeah, yeah, I saw it. The portrayal of it is so sick out there, really it's to the T of what we're talking about.
Eldar:He must have saw it, or not.
Mike:No, I don't know which Rocky, this one.
Toliy:Plus Rocky's for like Italian. Oh Well, rocky.
Mike:Rocky, there's like there's a bunch of them, yeah, but this is like An important one.
Mike:Rocky is like a Classic series You're. Italian, you haven't seen these bro.
Mike:Yeah, I watched, like the most recent one, it's.
Toliy:IMDB 5.4 3.3.
Eldar:Send me the link. Send me the link.
Toliy:Send me the link, I'll watch it. The sickest portrayal of this exact topic of like you changing and you're yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eldar:And then you became bigger than the coach itself.
Mike:Yeah you guys ever watched the UFC one or no? The UFC movie? No, which one? It's the same director as Miracle. The guy who did Russia vs the director is Miracle. The guy who did Russia vs the US it's Nick.
Toliy:Nolte's dad. It's Tom Hardy and Joel Edgerton. It's a sick movie, oh man.
Mike:I saw it recently Two brothers end up fighting.
Mike:It's very good, it's a good movie. Yeah, it's like you know.
Mike:But it's all about UFC. It's all UFC. Yeah, it's everything based off UFC. And they go like this event and they try to figure out like who the toughest man on the planet is, and they give like a $5 million purse. They go down to Atlantic city and like they get all the best fighters in the world.
Eldar:Yeah, it's very good Quick question. The purpose of the marketers that are marketing to us is to create, not to sell us their product, but to make us no, to make us into better marketers.
Toliy:That's the best form of marketing is when your customers are your marketers. Well, yeah, it's word of mouth marketing, if you get me excited.
Eldar:You just got me excited about something.
Mike:You're going to get me excited. I'm going to get you excited.
Eldar:And it keeps going.
Mike:So that means making a great, great product. Yeah, then I know that if I'm going to invest in a product, that most likely the person is going to talk about it and it's going to have a trickle down effect, that's like exponential, keeps going and going and going and going.
Mike:Yeah. So I think, yeah, I go into attachment. I think, properly attaching that thing, properly defining that thing and calling that thing for what it is Again, like if we do it next week, like defining what your attachment is Okay, like what is a fan? Why do you like the sport? Why do you watch this movie? And breaking down all those things? Because, like the Voldemort reference, like there might be scattered little bits of like, pieces of like. Maybe I like this thing and this fulfills this deficiency in myself and that's why I'm drawn to this and that's why I like this opinion.
Mike:That wasn't a Voldemort reference Well no, that's why I'm drawn to this and that's why I like this opinion.
Toliy:That was the Voldemort reference no.
Mike:I'm saying it's like the Voldemort reference. Not like the Voldemort reference you said he broke himself into multiple pieces.
Toliy:Correct To kill him. You had to kill a bunch of different things. Pieces of yourself, yeah, of pieces of him. It wasn't like different things you like, or like any of that.
Mike:Okay, like different things you like, or like like any of that. Okay, well, the the reference would be then, like you're you have to properly then, uh, define whatever it is so you can have multiple attachments to multiple things. We said that from the beginning. Then, right, yeah, so like, if you do have multiple attachments to like one specific sport, one specific thing, like you're going to have to define those things and call the truth in each of those. Before then I can say, like, well, I had this attachment or I don't, then I have to admit that you do right, and then you have to be willing to take, I guess, the criticism or observation and then you have to own that thing. But until you properly define it and call it for what it is we still didn't properly define what the fan is yet and why we like all these things we have to call that for what it is.
Eldar:Yeah, thank you, philip, sorry.
Mike:So what is it?
Eldar:Final thoughts on attachment yeah.
Mike:Yeah.
Eldar:You can start with I think we're fucked no, I don't think so.
Mike:I mean it's just, I think it's not. It's just as bad as anything else. You know, when you don't, I guess, line up with the truth or you know, you give something power that's outside of yourself, like a thing or a place or whatever the stuff that Toluca was saying people places things it's very detrimental to you, to a happy life, yeah, because you reinforcing that you're not able to generate your own happiness, which is, you know, a lot of people, unfortunately, live under that impression. So, yeah, that's my final thought that it's very dangerous to think and to believe that you can draw power from other things outside of yourself, the real, genuine power. Like, we can get excited about UFC, we can get hyped up, but I guess, calling it for what it is, you know, that is just excitement and it's, you know, short lived. We go back to our regular lives, yeah, and do what's really, you know, whatever I think is important to me. Thanks for watching, thank you.