A Remarkable Donor Turnaround

An unfortunate change during Ed Berman's time as an undergrad at Drexel University “just left a bad taste in my mouth."

What do you do when an alumnus—or a potential donor for any organization—has had a bad experience?

Berman shares what happened and how the university's fundraising team was able to turn four decades of dissatisfaction into a six-figure bequest—that in the end Berman was glad to make. It's a remarkable turnaround! 

Development Director Tom Zulewski joins the conversation to detail his process. It’s a model other fundraisers can use, too.

Know  More. Raise More. is presented by Insightful. The team at Insightful knows connecting with donors is hard. That’s why Insightful helps fundraisers like you better know your donors (and the people you would like to be donors) so you can: 

• Raise more money
• Advance your mission
• Do more good in the world

There’s a big change happening right now affecting fundraisers. Over the next decade, up to $70 trillion dollars will shift from aging baby boomers to millennials. This wealth transfer is already underway.

Are you prepared to work with millennials?

Start by downloading Insightful’s free ebook:
9 Insights Fundraisers Need to Know to Prepare for Millennial Major Donors. Just head to insightfulphilanthropy.com/ebook

Transcript

Jennifer Trammell: 0:05

Welcome to"Know More. Raise More." the podcast for fundraising professionals, where we share firsthand stories from donors and gift officers who have real relationships working together to change the world for good. I'm your host Jennifer Trammell. On the podcast today, we know so many of our listeners are fundraising in higher ed and working with alumni. So we're headed back to college. Ed Berman graduated from Drexel University in 1974, with 17 job offers, but something happened during his time as an undergrad.

Ed Berman: 0:49

But that just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Jennifer Trammell: 0:51

What do you do when one of your alums or a potential donor for any organization has had a bad experience? Development Director Tom Zulewski joins us with an amazing turnaround story, how he turned four decades of dissatisfaction into a six-figure bequest. It's a model you can follow too."Know More. Raise More." the podcast for fundraising professionals is brought to you by Insightful. Insightful helps improve engagement between nonprofit organizations and donors. We know connecting with donors is hard, Insightful, helps fundraisers, like you better know your donors. So you can raise more money, advance your mission and do more good in the world. Ed, welcome to "Know More. Raise More." the podcast for fundraising professionals. Thank you. Well, you tell us a little bit about your life growing up. And what ultimately led you to Drexel.

Ed Berman: 1:59

So I was born born in South Philadelphia, spent time in West Philadelphia, and ended up in the near Northeast Philadelphia, but always in the city, always in the city. It was you go outside and there's 12 Other kids outside and you grab a ball of whatever season you're in, and you spend your life playing sports. So great way to grow up. Didn't have a lot. But we didn't know we didn't have a lot. I went to an all academic magnet school in Philadelphia. So I was doing the college prep thing. Because in my family, the objective or the the learnings were you're going to go to college, you're going to get an education because none of us did. And their objective was to make it better for their kids. They're my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe, so it was you're going to go to school. We don't know how we're going to pay for it, but you're going to go to school. And so, you know, that was the mantra in my family. And we knew it. So we all worked hard, all 10 cousins on that side of the family. The Drexel thing was interesting, because I had an older cousin who married a guy who went to Drexel, and was a chemical engineer. And he's five years older than me. So he passed out of Drexel as I came in. But he was a great guy, I got to know him very well, when I was in high school. I guess he was I looked up to him if you will. And I said I want to be like that, you know, he was a good looking guy always dressed. Well, has some money, you know, that kind of thing. So you know, always, always said wanted that. And at the same time in high school, the teacher that I had that resonated with me the most probably was my chemistry teacher. So good at math, chemistry, had a role model of someone that came out of Drexel, as a chemical engineer. So I said, I can do that, I should do that. So that was that's what headed me towards engineering number one. And if you're a Philadelphia kid, you know, Drexel is a good school. In those years, Drexel was one of the only two schools I think in the country that had Co Op as a part of their formal education program. So So you said okay, well, I'm going to go to school. And I know that I'm not going to get a whole lot of support from the family financially. Co Op is a pretty good thing. Not only do you get the benefit of having a sense of what kind of jobs you're going to go into when you get out of school, you get some practical experience, you get to earn some decent money. So those two things combined, maybe target Drexel,

Jennifer Trammell: 4:31

Knowing that your family wasn't able to offer a lot of support. How did you pull this together?

Ed Berman: 4:37

They offered me financial aid scholarships, and between that and what I had already saved from, you know, working, you know, in jobs before college. In fact, an early job I had was I actually sold soft drinks and eagles games, and prank Winfield back in the day. So I was always doing something always working, always trying to make some money as a kid. So I just Seeing all of that, and the Co Op money and a little bit of student loans that I could take out, I can make that happen, I can make it work. I started out as a kid who grew up in the late 60s. So I showed up, shoulder length hair, you know, went through my first year at Drexel that way, until it came time to interview for Co Op. And then that required me to look a little different and act a little different, cut my hair, figure out how to wear a suit and all that kind of thing. And but it all worked my first Co Op assignment, my only Co Op, actually company was with Mobil Oil. And my first assignment was at 42nd and Lexington, in New York City, which was an adventure. I chose to take the summer off of play baseball one more year trying to be discovered. And I kind of was, I was approached by the Red Sox in those years. But believe it or not, the money that a chemical engineer could make coming out of school was more than the minimum salary in Major League Baseball. So I said, I know where the money is going to be, I'm going to go be an engineer. Stupid move free agency happened a couple years later, but you know, nonetheless, you know, it all worked out. So on my 19th birthday, I show up in New York City, moved into an apartment with four other Drexel guys in Queens. But it was just a fascinating experience a chance to at a very, very young, relatively young age, or very, very young age, get a sense of what engineering could be all about. And the neat thing about Co Op is you're doing real work. It's not like you're doing grunt work, you're actually doing real work. So I was as a neophyte engineer, I was working on the design of their refinery in Torrance, California, as an example.

Jennifer Trammell: 6:45

So you have this great work experience with Co Op, you're back at Drexel, doing classes on campus, tell us about that time in your life and any changes that were happening.

Unknown: 6:56

In the second, maybe early third year at Drexel. They changed the financial aid package arbitrarily, I don't know what was behind it in all fairness, but in my mind arbitrarily, but it was reduced. And it wasn't just me, other guys in the class that you know, we all compare notes. And same thing kind of happened. And there was no change in my parents financial situation, no ability for them to contribute more. I was making when I was making, there was nothing fundamentally changed my ability to fund my education. But yet the support was reduced. You made it work, because you went out took more student loans, which the kids today would laugh at terms of the amounts of loans that we took out relative to what they do today. But nonetheless, it was real money back then. So we took out more so all of us took out more student loans. That's what got me through. And the education was great, the experience was great. I got a ton of job offers coming out of school chose the one that I wanted, which led me to, you know, a nice career nice life. But that just left a bad taste in my mouth, that at that point in time, in my it was almost a bait and switch. I hate to use that term. But you know, the offer was made the the support was, was was there got me in that was far enough along and then it was reduced. So even though I got a good education, got a lot of job offers had a great job coming out of school. It just left a bad taste in my mouth. I can't speak for anybody else. But in my mouth, certainly, as I as I as I moved out of Drexel.

Jennifer Trammell: 8:37

From there, Ed started his life. He had 17 job offers coming out of Drexel. And he went to work for DuPont.

Unknown: 8:44

They offered me a job in Houston, Texas, which is 70s was booming. It was a great place to be young. And and they offered me the opportunity to participate in a program for high potential people. So every two years, I would move on to a different job. And after seven years, I realized, you know, I was decent in engineering. But I didn't really love it. I was much better I thought at the business side of things and DuPont, luckily, it gave me a chance to move into the sales and marketing side. And that's where my career took off.

Jennifer Trammell: 9:19

Hey, there's a big change happening right now affecting fundraisers like you. Over the next decade, up to $70 trillion will shift from aging Baby Boomers to Millennials. And this wealth transfer is already underway. So are you prepared to work with millennials? Start by downloading Insightful's free

eBook: 9:39

9 insights fundraisers need to know to prepare for millennial major donors. Just head to insightfulphilanthropy.com/ebook Go to insightfulphilanthropy.com/ebook to get the nine things you need to know about millennials from millennials. That's insightfulphilanthropy.com/ebook One more thing. If you're enjoying learning from guests like Ed and Tom, leave us a five star rating and your podcast app, and make sure you click subscribe or follow. So you'll know right away when a new episode of "Know More. Raise More." drops. And now back to our conversation. So during this time, were you engaged with Drexel at all?

Unknown: 10:27

Not at all. Not at all. You know, I was so focused on you know, I got married right out of school as people tended to do but back in those years, I was so focused on my career moving around and my wife's career and you know, trying to match her needs with my needs as we move to wherever the next location was. Didn't even pay Drexel any attention. So I didn't, I didn't experience Drexel didn't, didn't interact and come back, didn't talk to anybody. Maintained friendships with some of the guys I graduated with, but that's about it.

Jennifer Trammell: 10:56

What started to change?

Unknown: 10:59

So fast forward about 30 years, maybe. And I ended up here in Scottsdale, Arizona. Someone at Drexel reached out, someone in their fundraising organization. No pressure, just wanted to say he was going to be in town wanted to sit down and you know, talk to me introduce himself, get to know me, you know, a little bit, whatever it was. So I said, Sure. I said, Let's, he just wanted to have a cup of coffee. We had breakfast once. But he just we just had that first meeting. First engagement. And didn't ask for anything. Didn't try to close the sale, if you will, and try to raise any money for me at that time. And then the next time he was in town, a year later, he followed up. And then he followed up again, he was just trying to, to, you know, rekindle or build some kind of relationship between myself and Drexel again. He left moved on from Drexel, there was another gentleman that was involved, picked up the relationship if you will, same thing, you know, you know, at breakfast, had coffee, also never really pushed me for anything for any commitment. I explained the situation and how you know, I'm really, I wasn't really yet ready to commit to anything. Because that that, because of what happened is still, you know, whether it was right or wrong or indifferent, just still wasn't sitting right with me, and kept building it and building it. And from our conversations, I finally realized, maybe I was looking back in the past a little too much being a little bit intransigent. A little too sensitive. When we started seriously talking about how we might get involved with Drexel, how we might do something. So Tom is the guy that turned that around.

Jennifer Trammell: 12:43

So let me introduce Tom Zulewski. Tom, great to have you join us here. Tell us about your role at Drexel and how you came to know Ed and that relationship building?

Tom Zulewski: 12:53

Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me. Ed, it's always a pleasure to speak and see you, Jennifer, you as well. Yeah, I am the Director of Development for the College of Engineering in our School of Biomedical Engineering at Drexel University. As Ed said, I inherited the Arizona Territory. We're a pretty territory based group within the College of Engineering, there's myself and two, three or four other gift officers. So Arizona is a territory of mine. And the former gift officer Chris had it and they said, Hey, Tom, you're going to take Arizona, take a look at you know, who's out there, try and schedule a trip and kind of go from there. And Ed's name popped up. And I noticed that he had a relationship. And I was looking in our database and our records that we have. And I said, You know what, I don't really know what's here. I came into the mindset. Let me reach out there. Let me see if he wants to have a coffee. I know maybe the same old thing he's been doing with the other two gift officers. But I wanted to sort of reset the conversation. I came into that mindset of let's reset this. I don't know a single thing about Ed, I want to know more about him. I want to know what you know, if he's interested in philanthropically, and Ed did share with me, you know, some of the what happened, I mean, the financial aid situation where it was reversed, and I felt his pain, like I understood that. And that's very real. And it's not the first time I heard that from from donors. And I just kind of never pushed that and just really laid out to him what if he was ever interested in potentially giving a major gift or leaving a bequest in his estate? What are some options for him and we have many different options. I thought the one thing that really kind of stuck out was our College of Engineering operation graduation. And what this does is this provides money for juniors and seniors, predominantly seniors who are graduating and receive a financial hardship, maybe unfortunate death of a parents or a natural disaster from where they you know, where their parents live or where even they live or think into a car accident or sick or whatever it may be. And this fund and this money provides that allows them to graduate and allows them to to pay off that tuition bill or that book bill or whatever it may be. And if I remember our call, I believe I put in laid it out to you, and you kind of just sat back and thought about, I was like, wow, like, I never knew that kind of existed. And we just kind of had those conversations from there. And it's sort of, I think, and I don't, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think our, you know, the Philly sports think that connection. And this is like some advice I like to give to other gift officers is, you know, when it comes down to it, this is relationship building, this is getting to know somebody this is getting to know, not just you know, why they chose to go to, you know, trucks or whatever university it may be, or college, but get to know the individual as a person. It's another fit, you know, their family, if they're willing to share that. What's their interest, if it's sports, if it's not, if it's, you know, travel cars, etc. And, and I'm trying to think we really didn't talk philanthropy that much. I mean, we did some of the initial conversations, I mean, some of the nitty gritty, but it was just a real conversation, just how to get to know each other really?

Ed Berman: 16:17

Well, I think that's right. But I mean, I knew why you were there to be fair. And,

Tom Zulewski: 16:22

but something interesting, you said, some people don't. And I think that's another navigating thing where I have to sort of navigate a conversation. I like to be upfront and honest and tell individuals, this is why I am coming. And I have that expectation. I am going to talk, you know, money and fundraising with you. Absolutely. There are some people who still you know, and maybe they don't understand my title, they understand my role, or I'm not gonna be explicit enough. But I you'll be surprised that there's a lot of people are kind of taken aback when I get to that point of that conversation.

Unknown: 16:55

Really, they thought you're just coming into town to be nice to have a cup of coffee with them. So that's good. But the Philly sports thing is important. I mean, you grew up in Philadelphia, you even though I lived in Chicago, in New York, and San Francisco and Melbourne, Australia. You always support the teams you grew up. Over my shoulder there's an artist's rendering of all four of the major Philadelphia sports teams with their old uniform colors.

Jennifer Trammell: 17:23

Philly sports, the Foundation have a great relationship. Remember, for insights on Millennials from millennials, download Insightful's free ebook: 9 insights fundraisers need to know to prepare for millennial major donors, just head to insightfulphilanthropy.com/ebook. Before we head back to the conversation, I have one ask for you, who's another fundraiser or nonprofit leader, you know, who might enjoy this podcast? Share"Know More. Raise More." with them, as soon as you're done listening today. Thanks. Let's talk about what you were ultimately able to do together. Ed, you've now decided to make a gift to Drexel University.

Unknown: 18:11

I'm 70 years old, believe it or not, I can't it's hard to say that he just turned 70. But you know, some years ago, we got we started to get really serious, my wife and I about where's it going to go? Right? We're not going to spend, I would like to but we're not going to spend at all. And COVID has put a damper on that because he can't travel as much as we were planning or would like to. But we started getting serious about it. And we're very lucky that we we I have a sister, she has a brother, they've done very well in their careers. They don't need our money. So we said so what are we going to do with it? You know, with whatever's left, right, we decided that it's time for for me to commit to supporting Drexel again. And the program that exists and helping kids who may not be able to make it without some assistance really resonated with me. I don't have a need to have my name on a scholarship or I don't have enough money to put my name on a building. But you know, that kind of thing. I don't need to be remembered that way. The fact that some kid who has some difficulty can make it through school, because it's something I'm able to do. That's enough. You know, that's enough. So we divided our estate up into four pieces. So half of it is going to be split between the two of us have to my family have to her family. We have nieces, no kids, to no grandkids and the other hand, we're going to split as we wish so that one quarter that I'm controlling is going to go to Drexel targeted for that fund. It's a number that's yet undefined. So I've given Tom a minimum estimate. But it should be significantly more than that when it's all said and done. And if I if that's what's left of my life when I leave and I can help people why not?

Jennifer Trammell: 19:57

That's great. Tom, I'm thinking about these bequest gifts, this can be a really sensitive conversation. From your perspective, how does it usually go? How do you make people comfortable enough to talk about the time when they're not going to be here?

Unknown: 20:16

It is sensitive. You have to be weary, you have to be understand who you're talking to. I like to ask the question, what do you want your legacy to be? Have you thought about your legacy? Have you thought about making a philanthropic investment into Drexel, or the College of Engineering or the School of Biomedical Engineering? And many times I have individuals who sit back and kind of think about that, like, you know, I never thought about that before. You know, what are the options? What can I do? And that's when I kind of can go in so and talk about some estate planning and estate giving in the question IRA, rollovers or charitable remainder trust, I have a pretty good working knowledge of all of those vehicles. But you know, when it comes down to it, sometimes I have to bring in our planned giving experts and we have a very robust team at the at the planned giving office within Institutional Advancement at Drexel so that I can call upon and bring in if needed to have a conversation, facilitate that conversation. It can be sensitive, you're talking about death, you have to kind of gauge. In my advice to individuals, don't be afraid to ask those questions. If that donor comes back and says, I don't want to talk about that, that's fine. You shut it down. And you don't bring it up again, though, or you can maybe you bring it up later down the road. But at that time, no, you don't do it. But if they're open to the conversation, that I think it opens up a whole different world, because a lot of some individuals, you know, they may not have given before, but they don't have the cash or liquid assets available on hand currently to make a large impact, a $25,000, you know, a year scholarship or even a$5,000 a year, but you know, they have money in an IRA or money in an estate or, you know, money sitting in an account that they don't know what to do with it at the end. And they can make an impact now and see that impact while they're living. And they can be honored and in sort of recognized for that, if they so choose. That's pretty powerful.

Jennifer Trammell: 22:14

That's really helpful, I think, for our fundraising listeners of how you approach that conversation.

Tom Zulewski: 22:21

Yeah, and I also, just don't be afraid, don't be afraid to ask the questions. I mean, we're fundraisers were our number one task is to to raise money, we have a couple of younger gift officers on the staff. And I tell them, Don't be afraid to just to ask, you know, make that ask too many times. And I think if the officers are afraid to ask it and make the ask, I know that sounds kind of funny and weird. But I've heard that and I've seen it as well. I mean, what's the worst that could happen? You know, somebody says no,

Ed Berman: 22:50

so he says, No, that's right. That's exactly right. Yeah.

Unknown: 22:53

Okay, and you want don't be discouraged. This is part of that. This is like that you're gonna people are gonna say no, people who are going to be upset with the university for some reason. Or they're just that the timings not right. I mean, timing is everything they do say timing is everything in life. It's, it's, it truly is, in a way. I have multiple examples over the years where somebody told me, Hey, you know, time is not right, come back to me now in two years. Sure enough, it is time the time is right. And time is fine. You know, maybe we could kind of say that with Ed to it. You know, Ron got Ed thinking about it, Chris sort of had that relationship and kind of maintained it. And I guess I just kind of came in and said, Ed, what do you want to do? How do you want to how do you want to make an impact? This is what we can do.

Ed Berman: 23:42

And you know, perspective is interesting. So I don't remember exactly. It must have been maybe three years or so when we made the commitment two, three years ago.

Tom Zulewski: 23:51

d

Unknown: 23:52

Yeah, because COVID kind of took two years out of everybody's life. But so, so but it's funny, interesting. My, my father in law passed away. They were living in Georgia. And so my mother in law moved here in 2016, into an independent living facility. So if you don't think that your life is finite, go to independent living facility, and she's 88 now and look at all the women that are there with no man. And and you realize at that point in time, I'm not going to be here forever. So makes you start to really think about that and say, Well, okay, maybe I should prepare better for that, rather than just stick my head in the sand, you know, act like I'm going to be here for a long time and see what happens.

Tom Zulewski: 24:33

I've discovered over the years that many individuals that we don't know that we're in their estate, that Drexel College of Engineering is in their estate. And I think that's another good sort of advice to give is, it doesn't hurt to ask to say, Hey, are you new stay Have you thought about including us in you'll be surprised what people say or come back with I've had people say, oh, yeah, like we are, you know, we're your, you know, engineering. for X amount, or, you know what, like, I have been thinking about that, you know, my wife has a scholarship at so and so University, let's try and you know, maybe create one through my requests, you know, in my estate now. We get gifts all the time that come in for mistakes that we just didn't know about. And you kind of sit back and you kick yourself a little bit and think, oh, man, like maybe I should have reached out to them. Or maybe I should have did a little bit more digging around and finding out. It is sensitive, and I cannot stress that enough. And you do have to sort of gauge and figure out when that's right. And that's hard. That is that is hard. But you're not going to know unless you just you just ask and see how that conversation goes.

Jennifer Trammell: 25:42

Ed, now that this is in place, how are you feeling?

Ed Berman: 25:48

Actually better actually, that I've overcome my own personal issues with Drexel. But but the fact that it settled, we actually did redid our estate documents after we made that commitment. So that it's, it's in our docs, so there's no ambiguity there, in terms of you know, what's going to happen later. I feel pretty good. The other thing that I do feel that, that Tom did very well. And I understand, I mean, there must be you must have annual targets for recurring cash as opposed to future cash. And, in my case, it's Tom, it's a futures arrangement, I got no pressure from Tom to make it a short term thing. It was the fact that that pressure didn't come and you know, what we're willing to do, or what I was, what we were willing to do was fine. And Tom's willing to play the long game, there actually made me feel very good actually,

Tom Zulewski: 26:38

I think having someone like Ed, who was willing to overcame his, you know, the problems and the sort of the sour taste in his mouth, from what happened back when he was a student, you know, you're busy during the time when you're working from, you know, your, your, your 20s 30s 40s 50s. And then you start to see this, you start to then think about once you get into I talked individuales, in their 50s and 60s, you started thinking about their legacy, they think about what's going to happen, when they they pass where's this, you know, they've been very fortunate in their careers where they've made a good amount of money they can allocate and put aside, that has been a wonderful example. And I can share with others and kind of inspire them to do the same.

Jennifer Trammell: 27:20

If you'll play along with me for a minute, let's play a little game of do and don't. So Ed, starting with you from a donor perspective, what are the things when a gift officers approaching a potential donor that they should do? And the things that they absolutely should not do?

Ed Berman: 27:37

You know, it's really only one Do you know, do it the low pressure way work for me anyway? And the don't is, don't be afraid to ask for the order. You know,

Jennifer Trammell: 27:49

Tom, from your perspective as a fundraiser, what are the do's and don'ts when working with donors?

Unknown: 27:56

Ed was pretty spot on there. Your Do: You ask. You know, ask and listen. I think too many times gift officers don't listen, or they don't pick up on certain, you know, details. And what I mean by that is, you know, listen to, okay, they talk about traveling, great. They have a second home somewhere a third home somewhere. What are their philanthropic, you know, passions? Do they do? Do they donate to other organizations? One little trick I like to do is, you know, I'll ask somebody, where else do you donate towards? Where else are you philanthropic towards? I don't even think I asked you that. Maybe I should ask you that sometime. But where where else do you do? Do you donate to because that can give some clues and insights into maybe where they're passionate about or where they maybe could direct something at your organization. Now towards don'ts. Don't assume anything. Absolutely do not assume anything, whether that be the research that you that you have in your database on the individual. whether, you know, they may be rated say, I don't know how other institutions do rating wise, but maybe their reading capacity from 10,000 to 25,000. I've seen it and before where that's complete bogus, and this individual is rated way higher and has a capacity that's way higher. I've also seen the reverse where they someone's been really braided high. And, frankly, they don't have any money left or they're just not they don't they're not philanthropic, and that's okay. I think that's also important to say that that is okay. If somebody is not philanthropic with your organization or doesn't want to give I it's going to happen. You're not every single solitary alum from your university, they're not going to want everyone's not going to get or not, you know, unless you're at Princeton or Harvard, but even those institutions or have individuals who don't do that, don't assume anything. Go into a conversation with open ears and listen, just absolutely listen and try to pick up on some of those those little details.

Ed Berman: 29:58

And the only thing I would say his customization is good. You know, it's not a one size fits all. And, and the notion of listening and understanding, nurturing, if that's what's required, in my case, that was, you know, just letting it kind of play out over time. The fact that, you know, everybody's different. So you know, it being able to customize the approach and listening and it has to be done. I think it has to be done. You know, pushing and pushing and pushing will work for some people back some others off. So you just have to do horses for courses, use a cliche, you know,

Unknown: 30:37

and we're very fortunate at Drexel, all of us institution gift officers that our leader David Unruh, he is awesome, awesome individuals, an awesome guy who never ever pushes us because I will never push us to go. He always says, you know, you know, these your individual prospects better than anybody goes, if you think the time isn't right, then I trust you. But if you think the time is right to do it, then go for it, he will never, never push us. And so add, that comes really from the top down, that sort of no pressure. And it's a philosophy that I hope and other gift officers who listen to this and fundraisers can can take to their respective institutions.

Jennifer Trammell: 31:23

Guys, this is a really great turnaround, you know, thinking about the end of Ed's experience at Drexel with the financial aid to now making a legacy gift that's going to be impacting students for years to come. So thank you for sharing the turnaround with us. Thank you. Thank you. Let's recap the key takeaways from Tom and Ed. Number one, before you can overcome a bad experience, you got to find out what went wrong. Let your prospects know that you'd like to understand what happened. Then, listen. Number two, if you're new to a territory, like when Tom picked up Arizona, use it as an opportunity to reset relationships between alumni in the university or potential donors in your organization. Number three, just like Tom did listen for clues about your donors' interests and passions. For Tom and Ed, it's Philly sports, they share that passion and could use that to build a genuine relationship. Four, have patience. If you're coming back from a bad experience, it's going to take time to rebuild trust between the donor and the organization. In this case, three gift officers. And then number five, when you're at the point of talking about a gift, find the right opportunity. For Ed that was Operation Graduation for the College of Engineering, a way to really come full circle supporting current students, so they won't face the same situation Ed did when he was an undergrad. Talk about an amazing turnaround. Our next episode launches in a week we get inside the head of a millennial major donor and successful CEO, as we talk corporate giving with Andrew Koenig, President of City Furniture. It's double the fun because Andrew is bringing along City's VP of Community Relations, Lindsay Leblang, she's the one who handles all those donation requests. And Lindsay is going to open up and share the keys for fundraisers to successfully approach businesses. Hey, thanks so much for joining us for "Know More. Raise More." I'm your host Jennifer Trammell.