Episode 3: Making Space for Accurate Representation with Dr. Debbie Reese

In this episode, we talk with Dr. Debbie Reese – Nambé Pueblo writer, scholar, and author of the American Indians in Children’s Literature blog – about her work, the importance of accurate representation in literature for children, and what library workers can do to support Native children with collection development, displays, cataloging, and more.

Date of interview: April 1, 2022
Hosts: Ericka Brunson-Rochette & Kristen Curé 

American Indians in Children’s Literature: https://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/ 

Transcript

 [Intro Music Playing]

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Hi. My name is Ericka Brunson-Rochette. I am a community librarian in Deschutes County serving youth and families in Redmond, Oregon. I'm also the current co-chair of the Oregon Library Association's EDI and Anti-racism community. 

Kristen Curé:
My name is Kristen Curé and I'm a Spanish services librarian at the Springfield Public Library in Springfield, Oregon and I'm also a member of the OLA EDI Anti-racism community. Today's episode of OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, we are honored to be in a conversation with Dr. Debbie Reese, tribally enrolled Nambé Pueblo author, educator, and scholar. We will focus our conversation on collection development and how to select and promote diverse books for children and young adults. You can find this section on pages 26 to 35 of the OLA Equity, Diversity Inclusion & Antiracism Toolkit For Libraries. Dr. Reese is best known for her popular blog American Indians in Children’s Literature which provides critical analysis of Indigenous Peoples in children’s and young adult books. She co-edited a young adult adaptation with Dr. Jean Mendoza of An Indigenous People’s History of the United States for Young People by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. Debbie, it is such a pleasure and such an honor to be here with you today. Would you like to tell us just a little bit about yourself?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Well, I'm thrilled to be a guest on Weeding Out Oppression. There's so much power in that, the name that you have for your podcast, so I'm just delighted to be here and grateful that you invited me. As you said, I'm from Nambé Pueblo, or Nanbé Owingeh if you use the Tewa words. I'm tribally enrolled there, which means that they know who I am and it's not just a claim that I make that has no substance. We're dealing with that a lot right now with more conversations about it, so I've been careful to be mindful of how I speak about where I'm from and how I am known.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, thank you for that, Debbie. We're going to just hop right into our questions and we're going to start on a light note. And my first question for you today is, do you have a personal theme song? So something that you play in your head that gives you confidence or makes you feel good.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Let's see. The music that I play when I'm writing or thinking is Joy Harjo's music, but in the morning when I just want to get fired up for the day, I often listen to Talking Heads.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Lovely.

Kristen Curé:
Debbie, your work creating and developing American Indians in Children’s Literature, AICL, has been so important for librarians and educators. For listeners who don't know the history of AICL, can you tell us why you founded it and how librarians can use it to further EDI and anti-racism in their organizations?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
I started working as an assistant professor in American Indian Studies at a Research I university, that's the University of Illinois. The research that I was supposed to publish so that I could get tenure at the university was the kind of stuff that's behind paywalls, and so I realized that the book chapters and articles that I was writing, people who need them didn't have access to them or couldn't afford access to them because none of the associations are... they're not cheap. You have to have pockets in order to join them. So I started the blog so that I could put the research that I was doing out in the public and make it available to people who need it, who are actually working in libraries and working with kids and teaching children's literature. It does two kinds of things, one is I talk about Native writers and why their work is good. But I also talk about popular and classic books that are everywhere, like Island of the Blue Dolphins and books like that that are by non-Native writers that are considered award-winning classics so there's oodles and oodles of curriculum materials designed to be used with them. And people think, "Oh, well, it won an award so that must mean it's okay." And they're not, so I spend more time talking about problematic books than the ones that I recommend, because it's crucial that people understand that the problematic content prevents them from seeing the Native books and the Native writers and the stories that Native people want to share because it doesn't match the stereotypes. Whether they're romantic, or savage, or heroic, or tragic, or brutal, whatever they are, that's not who we are and that idea is so strong that it leads people to reject Native books and Native writers. And that just knocks me right on my tail because we're working so hard to make change, but in order for that change to happen, people have to get rid of problematic books.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Absolutely. Well, thank you for recognizing and making ways to remove those barriers and to shine light on those problematic books. Our follow-up question is, AICL does more than just recommend titles to selectors, and you talked a little bit about this in your last answer, another important role it plays is educating teachers and librarians about the evaluation of educational resources, whether they are websites, books, or other teaching materials. How did this work come about, and do you think it's getting harder or easier?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Work is both harder and easier because we do have more books by Native writers and then we have more books by Native writers that are coming from major publishing houses. They have the money to make things visible. They have all the swag so when people go to a bookstore or a conference, they will see those books that major publishers are pushing. They won't see the ones from small publishers, but those are so wonderful and I'd like to see those get some more visibility than they have at the present time, so I spend time on those books too. One of the things that people see when they go to my site is that I will take a book and do a page-by-page analysis of it. And I'm sure most people just don't take that time to go through there but it is important because most people's eyeballs float right past problematic content, it doesn't rise to their awareness. And they need to be aware of it because there's a lot of it.

Like Little House on the Prairie, most people don't realize how much Native content is in that book, and it's all problematic. People try to defend it and I say, "Well, let's look at what you're trying to defend. Over here on page whatever," and they I go into depth into why that's a problem. I also try to help them own the material because I don't want people to come to my site and take the list and then use them and then have someone come to them and say, "Well, that's not a very good book." I want them to be able to defend, to say why they're using it or why they're taking it off the shelf. They have to own the knowledge so they can share the knowledge, because that's the only way I think that real change is going to happen, is when we all own the knowledge.

On my site I don't say, "Just take my word for it." Let's go look at what Phil Deloria, a Native scholar, wrote about this topic. As a former professor in American Indian Studies, I have a huge library, and I draw from that and I put it into the blog. I also get in touch with professors and scholars that I know through my work in American Indian Studies and bringing their knowledge forward because they have so much good to offer but it has to be known, and so that's what I try to do with the blog.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Thank you.

Kristen Curé:
Debbie, thank you so much. Your blog is such a great tool for all of the reasons, all of the work that you put into it. I really love being able to share it with colleagues. It's just so helpful. It is all of those details. Our library manager told me the other day that she visits your blog at least once a week to learn more. We're just so fortunate to have all your work there and not behind a paywall, like you said. Kind of to follow up to some of what we've been talking about, how do you respond to school boards, members of the community, and even teachers, library technicians or district administrators that still use required readings or recommend books to students, such as the one that you mentioned, Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott O'Dell, Touching Spirit Bear by Ben Mikaelsen, To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, or even Dr. Seuss? Many times the argument is that we're censoring those books, how do you balance that rhetoric?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Well, I don't look to balance the rhetoric. I was a school teacher, I come at all the work that I do as an educator. And part of what I think happens when parents send their kids to school is they trust teachers to do right by their kids, they don't think that teachers are going to miseducate or misinform their kids. I try to come at those kinds of conversations form that space, trying to make it clear that when we say okay to these problematic books, we're saying okay to miseducating children and that violates the trust that parents put in our educational systems. So it's interesting to think about those questions of trust. We're cloaked or badgered or inundated with that question today about what schools are doing and what we expect from schools.

And I think the bottom line is we expect them to educate our children, and sometimes that education is going to feel uncomfortable, but that's what learning is about. Learning is acknowledging that there are things we don't know and that we're in school so that we can learn about those things. That's how I come at all of that. We would never be okay with a book that said that two plus two is five because it's just factually not true, we know that. And so I try to make parallels like that to help people see why it's not okay. It's not a question of censorship, it's a question of what's right, factually, about the contents of this book. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to kill the beauty of fiction or the beauty of writing. It doesn't. It just doesn't.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Great. So, my next question for you really dives into that a little deeper. In reference to all of the book-ban efforts that have been increasing in communities and school districts across the United States, with politicians and opponents of EDI co-opting the language of victimization and suggesting diverse books and accurate histories will harm white children. Historically, the lack of representation in literature and inaccurate histories has sparked little concern for these same people. What role do inaccuracies, tropes and fetishization of Indigenous Peoples in literature and non-fiction works play in perpetuating violence against Native Americans? And to follow up with that, how do these works harm Indigenous children?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Well, answering that last part first, all that we need to do is pull up the data on graduation rates, drop-out studies of Native kids, suicide studies of Native people, and you will see that none of the data is good. Kids drop out of school at higher rates than other populations do. Suicide happens at higher rates. And there are some studies that look at the impact of image on self-esteem and they measure a depression in self-worth, self-efficacy, how you feel about yourself and the way that you think about how you could change the world. Stereotypical images depress those emotions and sense of being in Native kids. The frightening part about that is the studies also show... and I'm talking about, in particular, the work that was done by Stephanie Fryberg.

People could do an internet search using Warrior Princesses and they'll find Stephanie Fryberg, F-R-Y-B-E-R-G. She's done some excellent research studies, empirical studies, on the impact of image on the wellbeing and self-esteem and self-efficacy of Native kids and non-Native kids. Like I said, the image is depressed, how Native kids feel, but the frightening part is that non-Native kids feel better after they've seen these images. I really, truly don't know what do with that except to take those books off the shelf. Why would anybody want to make non-Native people feel better about themselves at the expense of Native people? It's morally corrupt. So, there's a lot of harm done and it's not known enough. We need to know that impact, it can guide us in what we're doing.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Absolutely. Do you have any advice for librarians, teachers and educators in how we can help those graduation rates go up and those suicide rates go down? Not necessarily in regards to fighting to keep these books on the shelves, which hopefully we're all doing the best that we can. Are there other ways that we can help support?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Yeah. A few years ago on Twitter I said, "Hey, people, we're Native every day, not just in November," and I meant that very intentionally because what we see a lot is that these months that are set aside for a marginalized population is the only time that their books, their presence is made known. I think that a librarian can shape the library in ways that are more inclusive to Native people by having a clock on the wall that has Native language on it for the numbers, by having posters of books by Native writers on the walls. Those visual things that are a constant in your library make our presence known all year long and it'll affirm that one day it'll be the case that I am not elated when I walk into a place and see Native presence. I just want it to be the norm. But right now when I see it, it makes my heart soar because it's a signifier of someone who cares to acknowledge our presence. And it's also really hard for me when I see how much there is, by non-Native writers, all of this wealth of resources that non-Native people have on our homeland, on lands that were taken from us, on the lands where our ancestors are, their remains, their stories, their beings are on this land and this land is sustaining not us. So anything that people can do to make us visible, I think it a huge plus.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Thank you for sharing that.

Kristen Curé:
I think to follow up, this next question really fits well, talking about amplifying Native voices. So some of the rhetoric in the opposition to the hashtag #WeNeedDiverseBooks as well as the emphasis on the hashtag #OwnVoices, within opposition has to do with limiting the rights of whites or non-marginalized writers to write about experiences not their own. The ideology behind this being, "This is America, the land of the free. How dare marginalized people tell White or non-marginalized writers what they can and cannot write about?" In your April 12th, 2020 interview with the Kweli Journal, you talk about the importance of nuance. To word that in, what is gained when Native Americans authors write their own stories and document their own history? And in what ways do non-Native authors frequently get it wrong?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Well, when I'm thinking about this particular argument about non-Native writers, they should be able to write these books too, and of course they do. There's more of them than there are books by Native writers. That's already the case. They already have more space on the library shelf. But what I think is that if you're somebody who appreciates art and you go to art museums and you value the art that you see there and who made that art, you understand why it matters who made the art. When somebody makes something that looks like that and you are someone who cares about the integrity of the art, then you don't want the fake art, you want the real art. Though we tend not to think about fiction as art, it is art and it is providing the purveyor or the viewer with information that they can't get somewhere else. They just can't get it somewhere else. What you can get is a researcher's take on it, which could be a misinterpretation, a misrepresentation, a White one especially, that actually misinforms or misrepresents the content itself.

But what I see happening a lot is that people will go to volumes that were collected by White anthropologists in the 1800, in the early 1900, people who didn't understand what they were looking at, but because of societies expectations at the time, they published all these books about what Native people do. But those stories and those volumes are misrepresentations about what was actually going on, they look very flamboyant, they look very exotic, they fall into that blood-thirsty pagan/heathen kind of space. And all of those writings were very harmful to Native people across the US and Canada because governments and officials in both countries came up with policies that would say, "Your ways of worship are wrong and if you do that, you will be punished." So our ways of worship, our ways of spirituality went underground. It didn't disappear, it went underground. We had to protect it.

So part of what I see happening I that… and some Native people do this too, they go to those volumes and use those things as if it's okay. And when you go to the people of that particular nation that's being represented they all say, "Mm-mm (negative). No, don't do that. That's not okay." We try to protect our children and our communities from further harm than those books have already done. We want to make that end. Yes, people can write whatever they want to, and they do. And we can, in the same vein, speak up when they do and ask them to stop, because what they're doing is misrepresenting and misappropriating and harming people in the process of defending or declaring that they can do this because it is their right as someone in America, land of the free, where we can do anything we want to. It's not quite that; there are consequences and one of the consequences of misrepresentation is that somebody will speak up and say that it's a problem.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
My next question for you, Debbie, is some of those challenges that we're seeing to materials. Libraries are facing a historic wave of challenges and these specific challenges are pertaining to materials that were chosen precisely because they correct historical inaccuracies and include more authentic representation of BIPOC individuals and communities. Do you have any advice for librarians faced with these kinds of challenges?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Number one is that they should read the book and they should know it forwards and backwards and why it's important, why it matters to the readers they have in mind when they select those books and put them in the shelf in the first place. So knowing the book is really important because owning that knowledge prepares you to defend the book when you are challenged with why the book is in your library. I've been following all of this very closely because our book, An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States for Young People is being boxed-up in some schools in Texas and taken away. Part of what we heard after the book came out was Native kids were so happy. Some kids were carrying it around in their backpack so they could show their teacher, "The book is wrong. See, here!", and use our book as a reference to tell the teacher that the contents of their materials is wrong. So the book mattered tremendously to Native kids, and having it taken away feels like such a hurtful thing to do to them.

So the advice is to know the books forwards and backwards to be able to say why you're going to keep the book in your library. And part of what I'm trying to understand right now is what are librarians doing with the padlock entry when that happens? Is that being documented in some way? Hopefully, within a couple of years we're going to look back on and say, "Wow. We made it through that." But whether we make it through that in two years or five years or ten years, we are going to get there, but we also need to know what happened and what we said and did. So I think finding ways to not delete the record of books that are being pulled out, but making notes that can be part of a historical record, a documentation of the attack that you are all enduring right now and the kids are enduring. We have to find some way to do that.

So ALA should issue a statement, maybe at the next conference it's coming up, about how they will help you document what you are seeing in your libraries. I'm also seeing that some of those efforts are failing, but we need to know that too. When we're successful in rebutting an effort to remove something, we still have to document it. Part of that comes from my work as a scholar and seeing, "You know, we went through this 20 year ago and here we are again." And maybe having really good historical records and really good conversations about what happened 20 years ago, or in this case what's happening right now, will better prepare us for when it comes around the next time, because it will. It's concerning to realize, "You know what? We're flawed people and we don't get more enlightened." We make progress in some ways, but these same conversations just circle back again and again, or cycle. We cycle through them over and over. So we're human beings but we have to figure out how we can become more respectful and caring about all of us.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
You're absolutely right, it is very cyclical. And I love the questions that you posed around the repercussions that come from removing these items and the ways that we aren't holding ourselves accountable and how we can do that better. So, yes, maybe ALA will be listening and take note and might have some things to address at the next conference.

Kristen Curé:
So this next question comes from the point of view of our school librarian, "In a white-majority student population, how can we amplify the voices of Indigenous students without singling them out? And how can we recommend books from Indigenous authors in an uplifting way to Indigenous students and helping them feel appreciated and valued?"

Dr. Debbie Reese:
I think that starts with the relationship you have with the students from day one. And some of them you won't know they're Native. A lot of people think they don't have any Native kids in their schools and so it doesn't matter what they say or what they do. And that is just so wrong because it reflects the idea that they hold that Native people all have dark hair and high cheekbones and dark skin and that's just not the case, that's falling into the trap of stereotypical thinking about who we are and assuming that if you don't look according to that stereotype then there's no Native kids in your school. And that's just not the case because we're not a race of people, we are political entities, we are nations of people and it doesn't matter what you look like in a nation. Obviously, the United States, you can look at the United States as a comparison, same thing is true for us.

But assuming right away every day that there is a Native child in your presence, and even if there isn't, that you should do right by the kids who are there is crucial to creating that ethos of inclusion, of welcoming for whoever it is that's coming into your spaces. So how do you amplify the voice? You just make them present all the time. And if you've developed that relationship with a particular child who happens to be Native and they share that with you in the relationship that you developed with them, I think that would be your guide on whether or not you can say that or somehow talk to them publicly when other students are present about a particular book. I think it's highly dependent on the relationships and your own way of being as a human being who is working in the library space with kids.

Kristen Curé:
I think it just comes down to relationships not just in school libraries but in public libraries, what you said, Debbie, about creating a space that's really welcoming to all children. And it makes me think of the children seeing mirrors of themselves in books and if we make sure when we have book displays to feature all the diverse authors, that it's not just focused on white voices and white stories, it means a lot when people walk in a library and can see themselves on the shelf.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Absolutely. We have to think broadly. Like I said, people tend to try and display Native books in November. But if there's a rock concert coming up so you're going to put some books about rock musicians, put Eric Gansworth’s books up because he loves The Beatles and it's in his characters’ lives, and they're trying to play guitars, they're trying to have a band, and that should be part of the display too, it doesn't matter when it is. And the other thing that came to my mind is you were talking about that balance that we have in the library, I bet that if most librarians went and did a count, they would find they have way more books that we categorize as historical fiction that are about Native people. And in some cases you probably have ten copies of that book, like Caddie Woodlawn. Libraries would have lots of copies of that because it won a Caldecott. and you have one copy of a historical fiction by a Native writer. That's not a balance at all. I would encourage people to look at historical fiction and how many of non-Native stories they have on the shelf.

So we're talking about audits of your collection, but look at those numbers. Look very carefully at those numbers in historical fiction. And also when you look at your catalogs, Native creation stories, they're sacred stories but cataloged as folk and fairy and myth and legend when they really should be over there at the same part of the library where stories of Genesis are kept, or move all the stories of Genesis over to the folk and fairytale section too. Whichever route a librarian or a library wants to take, make it clear that these sacred stories should be respected. What I see happen a lot is that a Native story, teachers will take it off of the folk and fairytale section and not realize that it's a religious story. And then they'll play with it, they'll do arts activities and they'll use it as writing prompts for kids to create a new story like how this happened in the world.

And they really wouldn't go to the picture book about Noah's arc or about Genesis and do that because in their gut they know, "This will not go well if I do this." And that's the same feeling I want to happen with Native creation stories. So I say that and then people say, "Well, how do I know?" And there we get back at that whole idea that we have a history of non-Native people writing Native stories, especially retellings of Native stories or their own made-up Native stories. We have a lot of that too. People are so inspired by what they think are Native stories that they make up their own. So the job of head of librarians in sorting that out, very difficult. And for that, I say if it's a Native writer, then I would say, "Okay, you can use that one." But if it's a non-Native writer, I would just say, "Let's just not use that at all." Weed it. Weeding out oppression. I would like to see us think more broadly and deeply and actively about weeding some of that.

Kristen Curé:
What you talked about is so important and we've talked about this at my library too and it's part of the systemic racism that we have just in our Dewey Decimal System. These religious stories are put in the 398s with fairytales and not in the 200s with religion. That's something where we can make a decision at a local level, even if it's not officially changed, to catalog it with religious books. That's something that our local cataloger has done.

I buy the Spanish collection here and in our children's section. Over the past several years, there's been more publications coming from Mexico and some Central American countries that are sharing traditional Indigenous stories and it's really beautiful to be able to have this because we didn't have it before. And our cataloger, when those books came in, talked to me about it and said, "These are religious stories, aren't they? Okay, I'm going to put them in the 200. I'm not copy-cataloging this record that says it's a 398." But it requires us to do audits of our collection and to think about what's coming in and to look at it before we just put it on the shelf.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
I want you to write about that, Kristen. I think that's important, that there are models. We need those models.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
We need someone to do it first. And we need those examples when somebody does say, "Well, I don't know which direction to go. I don't know what to do," to have those opportunities to say, "Well, let's look at what this library has done or what this person has done." So absolutely, Kristen, we'd love to have that information out there and that guidance too. So I feel like that ties into this next question, and I believe that you've gone above and beyond in already answering this question but I'm going to give an opportunity if there's anything you'd like to add. What are three things libraries can do to make their children and young adult collections more inclusive and welcoming to BIPOC and other oppressed groups?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
One that I've said a lot but we can say very concisely, use the books all year long. And if they don't promote the books, then the books don't circulate and then lots of libraries have guidelines that say that if a book hasn't circulated in a certain number of years, weed it. And I think, "No!" My heart just breaks about that because I think, "That's just because you were not committed to this effort." That shows me you didn't own it, you were maybe giving it lip service. And that why it gets right back to this commitment and relationship with people who use your library so that it can become something that is in you and that you really are going to take action to try and help make better. That's one thing.

The other is to become more aware of microaggressions, not just of Native people but of all groups. When I hear a newscaster talking about somebody going off the reservation I just tense up because in wider society, "off the reservation," is something that people say about someone who's gone out of control or beyond the authority of the people in charge of them in some way. And historically, "off the reservation" is about Native people who left the reservation and suffered the consequences for having left the reservation without permission of the White Indian agent who had power over comings and goings of those reservations. I will say that not all reservations were like that, but many were. It's very sad that in some instances Native people went off the reservation trying to find children who were taken from them, and then when they were off the reservation they could be killed by law enforcement. And so, "off the reservation" is a very painful phrase. Circling the wagons. There's a lot of them, so I think trying to become aware of these things that we say as a matter of course. And it's embarrassing when you do it, when someone calls you on it, it's even more embarrassing and humiliating. But the bottom line is, what are we trying to do in working with the communities that we serve? Using the microaggressions gives other people permission to use it too and it also hurts some people who are aware of the histories of those phrases. So that's two. And third is just get multiple copies of books by Native writers. That's also a conversation, is, "Where do I put this particular book? Should I have a separate Native American section?" And some librarians say, "No because some people will never go there," and some people say, "Yeah! You should have a Native section so we can find those books easier." And I think, "How about having both?" Have two sections in the library where people can find books because they're looking for them in particular or they can just happen upon them. Buy two copies or four and just spread them out in the library.

Kristen Curé:
Those are some great recommendations. Thank you. I'm so excited to ask you this last question. We're going to end on a fun note too. So, Debbie, of recently published books, which ones are you most excited about? Which ones are you happy to see in children's hands? And do you have a favorite children's book from the past year?

Dr. Debbie Reese:
I'm always reluctant to say that I have a favorite, but I have three favorites from the last year or so. One is a picture book by Sharice Davids, it's Sharice's Big Voice and it's about congresswoman Sharice Davids and how she became who she is. I really like that book because it is a mirror for Native kids who grew up not on the reservation, Native kids who know their people's history of removal, Native kids who are lesbian. There's so many mirrors in that book that I think there are mirrors for Native kids but for other kids too. Her mother was in the armed services and so that's the case for a lot of kids in the United States, that they have a family member in the service and they move around the country, and so that's part of the story that is in that book. So I really like that book because it is a mirror in so many ways of so many identities of kids in schools today.

For a middle grade book, I would say Cynthia Leitich Smith, her book is Sisters of the Neversea. That one, it's mind-boggling to me that it's not getting more attention than it is. It's her telling of Peter Pan. Peter Pan is one of the most destructive books out there, the most destructive movies out there, because of the impact that it has on Native and non-Native kids because it's so full of stereotypes. It is the kind of book that is really hurtful and in this case, Cynthia Leitich Smith is taking that book and retelling it using Native characters set in the present day. But they do go to an island and there are Native people on that island, but they're not stereotypes, they are real people who were taken from their family and we have echoes of moments in... Native kids have been taken from their families in more than one instance, in more than one way, sometimes by federal policy, sometimes racist social workers. It happens. And so when you come to that part of the book where she's got Native kids on there, it's like, "Oh, my gosh. This is so powerful that this is part of the story that she's trying to bring forward in this retelling of Peter Pan." For me, it's a very powerful story and I think all the more powerful to kids who are trying to become critical thinkers and critical readers because everybody knows Peter Pan, so they will see the points of the story that Cynthia tells that are tied back to Peter Pan. So that's one reason I like that book, and the other one is that when you look at the cover of the book, you see one of the characters has darker skin. Cynthia and the illustrator Floyd Cooper did the art on the cover. It's bringing forward in that story the fact that we have Black Indians, in this case, Black Muscogee Creeks. That's a fact that people don't know about either. And so I think that book is so important in so many ways and I would like more people to read it and talk about it, share it in programing, because I think kids will come away knowing so much more than they do for starting that book. 

And the third one is the young adult memoir by Eric Gansworth, his book is called Apple: Skin to the Core. And of these three books that I've talked about, I think Eric's work overall resonates with me more than most writers because Eric grew up on a reservation, so did I. And though he grew up in the northeast and I grew up in the southwest, there are similarities in our experiences because government policy was impacting us no matter where we were. He talks about boarding school in his book. My parents went to boarding schools, my grandparents did, same story that he tells in his book. There's a lot in his book that is a mirror for kids who are on reservations or whose families grew up on reservations. I really like that book too. Definitely recommend it.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
So, Sharice's Big Voice, Sisters of the Neversea and Apple: Skin to the Core. Thank you for sharing those wonderful recommendations and thank you for joining us today, Debbie. You are a wealth of knowledge. I took so many great things from our discussion today and I want to work on owning knowledge so that I can share knowledge. Thank you for having this conversation with us.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Can I say one more thing?

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
You can say all the things.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Okay. Just one more thing. I want people to be aware of how Native people are erased from gold rush and pioneer stories. I've been doing a series of webinars with teachers in California and one of the things they wanted to know about was gold rush stories. And when you start looking into the gold rush, we carry around this idea of this man and his donkey crossing the rivers and carrying around that little pan and panning for gold in the river. That was happening on Indigenous homelands. Native people were killed in order for this gold rush to happen. So that's erased, the fact that those were Native lands and Native people were there before the miners came and what the miners did to the Native people that were there. That's just erased from those stories. So that's one problem with the gold rush story or the pioneer story, but the other one is that's not actually how the gold rush worked. It's just a little period of time when people could dip into the water that way and find gold. Really, what happened was that technology was developed to blast water on the hills, to destroy mountainsides. And mercury coming from that blasting was so destructive, today, people in California are dealing with mercury in the water, mercury the fish are eating and that people end up eating. There are stories like, "Get rich quick in the gold rush." We should look at them very carefully and not buy them. When you find them in your collection, and you will because we have a whole new Oregon Trail series that just came out, put it in a display, blow up pages and draw up big arrows and say, "What's wrong with this page? What's wrong with that page?" Just create those kinds of moments in the library using problematic books so that kids who are just passing by are going like, "Oh, wow. Look at that." Creating those opportunities for people that come into your library, I think that's also good for all of us.

Kristen Curé:
Thank you, Debbie. That is so important and crucial here in Oregon.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Yeah.

Kristen Curé:
There are a lot of stories about pioneers in the Oregon Trail. We have a lot of work to do.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
We do, but people like you can help us get it done. Thank you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
We’ll do better together.

Kristen Curé:
We will.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, thank you again, Debbie, for joining us. I feel like we are all better from having had this discussion.

Kristen Curé:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Debbie Reese:
Well, thank you and keep reading.

Kristen Curé:
That was such an engaging and inspiring conversation. It was really an honor and pleasure to be able to share that with you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes. Absolutely, Kristen. At this time, we're going to talk about some takeaways that we had form that really enlightening discussion with Debbie. And for me, I mentioned this in the conversation and I really want to bring it up again because it really resonated with me when Debbie spoke to owning the knowledge so you can share the knowledge. What I took from that was that we have to hold ourselves accountable for what's on our shelves, who it represents, and the accuracy of that representation. And I feel like that also really digs into the piece that Debbie mention about, "When we say yes to problematic books, we're saying yes to miseducation." It's our role as educators, as librarians and stewards of knowledge that we make sure our collections are authentic, accurate, and really speaking truth to history.

Kristen Curé:
Yeah. Just building on what you said, I completely agree that one of the big takeaways for me was the owning the knowledge so that we can share the knowledge. And for me, the next step when I think about my work in my library is being really intentional year-round with my collection development responsibilities, with what I put out on display in the library, with the programs that we work on to present to our community. It's so important that when people walk into our libraries, that they feel welcome year-round and that they can see themselves reflected in what we offer at the library not just on a special day like Indigenous People's Day or on a special history month, but every day at the library. And if we're really going to be able to share the knowledge and help children and families and adults and everyone in our communities learn more and come together as a community, we need to be able to do this to be able to build a relationship.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Absolutely, Kristen. So for our listeners, we ask that you do some reflecting on this discussion
as well. And one immediate thing that you can do is to think of one action you can take at your library now, whether it be big or small, something that you have taken away from all of this wonderful knowledge and perspective that was shared by Debbie. Think of one thing that you can do now.

Kristen Curé:
After you think about that one thing, do something with your reading. And I would love it if everybody could go check out Debbie's blog, American Indians in Children's Literature, and do two things. One, find a book that's already in your collection that after reading her blog you'd like to reconsider how your library presents it. And then the second thing is to look at the books that she recommends and pick something that you weren't aware of before and read it, but then you can share it and put it on display and really own that knowledge and share with the community.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, thank you listeners for joining us today and taking time to reflect on this very important discussion. Stay tuned for the next episode of OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, which will launch at the end of next month.

[Voiceover]
OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries would not be possible without the generous support from the Oregon Library Association and the State Library of Oregon, whose vision is to provide leadership and resources to continue growing vibrant library services for Oregonians.

[Voiceover]
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral land stolen from dispossessed Indigenous Peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native American ancestors, past, present and future, whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade and forced labor that built this country, and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.

 [Outro Music Playing]