S2, Episode 4: School Librarians Creating a Culture of Reading and Inclusion while Navigating Challenges with K.C. Boyd, Pia Alliende & Andy Spinks (Re-Release)

In light of the continued fight against book banning and censorship, we are re-releasing a conversation from last fall with the 2022 School Library Journal School Librarian of the Year, K.C. Boyd, and the two 2022 School Librarian of the Year finalists, Pia Alliende and Andy Spinks.

Amid book challenges, political and cultural attempts to staunch access to books that reflect the history and lives of our youth, and funding cuts to school libraries, these courageous library heroes talk about their grit and determination to provide mirrors, inspiration, and access to information for all youth.

Andy, K.C., and Pia discuss preparing for challenges, antiracist and inclusive collection development, and how to keep our eyes on the prize of nurturing healthy, critical, and curious youth.

School Library Journal School Librarian of the Year 2023 Nominations have closed since the recording of this episode, and the 2023 School Librarian of the Year and Finalists can be viewed here.

Hosts: Constance Palaia & Ericka Brunson-Rochette
Date Recorded: October 23, 2022

https://www.banbookbans.com/ 

Transcript

[Intro Music Playing] 

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Hello, and welcome to Overdue, Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast created by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. I am Ericka Brunson-Rochette, a community librarian working in central Oregon.

Constance Palaia:

And I'm Constance Palaia, a paraprofessional public school librarian in rural southern Oregon.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Wonderful. And today we are honored to be speaking with the School Library Journal 2022 School Librarian of the Year, K.C. Boyd, and the School Librarian of the Year finalist Pia Alliende and Andy Spinks. Welcome to the show, K.C., Pia, and Andy.

Pia Alliende:

Thank you.

K.C. Boyd:

Thank you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:   

We're going to get started today with a lighthearted question to kick things off if you're ready, and this icebreaker question is if you could live in any fictional world, which would it be? And we'll have Pia answer first, followed by Andy and then K.C.

Pia Alliende:  

Okay. I don't know if I'm too lighthearted with this one, but it's a difficult one for me. I think I will live in a science fiction world, sort of an utopia world where people wouldn't need to fight evil work forces every day, but celebrate and rejoice of being surrounded by people that are or think different from them. It would be a world where the community sense is strong. Everyone would feel accepted and loved for the way they are. And I would think that greed wouldn't exist, but generosity. There would be no need of using or abusing alcohol or drugs. Your physical and mental health will be covered. Everyone would have the gift of reading and writing and the freedom to read and learn whatever they wanted.

I have to kind of write down, and I mean, jot down some ideas when they prepared, I mean, they kind of tell us a little bit about what we can talk. But I felt that I needed to say also that is no need of weapons to kill your neighbor because they wouldn't be your enemy. Everyone would have the chance to travel and see and learn from one another. Everyone can enjoy and have the responsibility of take care of nature, have access to healthy food, feel loved and value. No need to drive, but bike or walk to have access to things. No depression or fear of losing your home or job. And of course, free access to many, many good quality and current books for everyone.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:   

Oh, Pia, I love that. Can you take me with you to that world?

Pia Alliende:  

Okay, I can take all of you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Okay, Andy.

Andy Spinks:

Well, Pia, good news. I have a fictional world that meets almost all of those qualifications. The one that I was thinking of is the Hundred Acre Wood for all of those same reasons. There is not a lot of conflict there, just a little bit and everything's resolved pretty easily and everybody is just appreciated for who they are, accepted for who they are. And that's what I think is so beautiful about the Hundred Acre Wood. Now, unfortunately, the reading and writing thing that you named is not so high there in the Hundred Acre Wood. I think Owl was the only body that was really super literate. But other than that, I think the Hundred Acre Wood kind of covers it, so.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yeah, I don't know. Pooh gets kind of grouchy without his honey, if I remember correctly. Okay, thank you for that, Andy. What about you, K.C.?

K.C. Boyd:

Well, I think automatically that I would like to live in Wakanda, which is the fictional country or world of Black Panther. And I would love that world because of the culture and the technology innovation and most importantly, the people. People are so sweet and kind to one another.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Wakanda Forever. Yes, thank you K.C.

Constance Palaia:

Well, we're going to go on with some questions for you. The first one is, what was your initial reaction when you found out you were the recipient of the School Library Journal's School Librarian of the Year recognition? And we're going to start with K.C.

K.C. Boyd:

Actually, I was home that day from work. I think I had a sinus infection. And Kathy Ishizuka called. And I had done some work with them previously, written a short article here or there, been interviewed by them. And I'd gotten to know some of the staff members quite well and it was in the middle of Covid. And I was thinking, "Oh no, I hope someone isn't sick or worse." And she just said, "Are you sitting down?" And I was like, "Oh my goodness." And then that's when she told me and I was like, "Huh? Come again." And she even jokingly said, "This is one of the first times that I really left you speechless." Not anything to say. Yeah. So that was a really, really funny moment. But it was just like, "Whoa." You know. It's a big surprise.

Constance Palaia:

Great, thank you. Pia?

Pia Alliende:

Well, Ericka is the culprit of it because she was the one that applied for me. And at the beginning she wanted to keep it secret, but I guess she couldn't so. Well, I guess she needed more information, especially when it was kind of confusing because at that point I was a school librarian in a middle school and also the district librarian. But before, I was a school librarian. But even though I'm certified, I was hired as a classified, so it's kind of confusing so she needed to sort that part out.

But when she asked me, I was like, "Okay, Ericka, I don't think that is... I mean, there are so many good librarians and doing so much work and that I don't think it's me." But she insisted and then I forgot about it. I was like, "Okay, whatever. I probably is going to stay there." And then I receive an email that I was one of the finalists and I was like, "What? What is this?" And was in February and they told me that I couldn't say anything to anyone until March, the end of March. So I told Ericka, I say, "You need to zip your mouth." But still I was... and still now I have a huge impostor syndrome and I feel that there are so many other librarians that deserve that award. But I got it so I was honor and surprised.

Constance Palaia:

Wonderful. How about you, Andy?

Andy Spinks:

I think probably my biggest reaction when I got the email was relief because they let us know the final results all at once. So there wasn't a time of finding out you're a finalist and then waiting to see who won. So I was relieved for that and also sort of a combination of relieved and elated to find out that K.C. had been the winner. I actually at one point during the application process, I thought, "I shouldn't even apply. I should just nominate K.C. Boyd. She's the one that really is...deserves to win this. I should just can my nomination." And then I thought, "Oh gosh, I could not do justice to everything that she's done, everything she's accomplished."

I just couldn't do it justice and the reason I kept on with the application process is more for what it does for my students for us to receive that recognition. But I was just relieved that I didn't have to wait to find out the final result. And elated for K.C. and I was not familiar with Pia's work so I immediately started looking her up on social media, following her. But I was really happy too for what it means for my students because some of the things I'm doing are right out there on the edge of the rules. So if you have a nice accolade like this, it makes it a little harder for them to fire you.

Pia Alliende:

I have to add with that also, Andy, thank you for mentioning K.C. because I was like one of my thing was like, "Okay," I was like, "Oh, thank goodness it's not me the winner because K.C. is..." I mean, I would feel completely like a thief if I was the one that was the winner. I was so happy that it was K.C. the winner. That is the truth.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Well, you're all doing phenomenal work and the recognition was very deserved by all of you, so thank you for that. What is something that you are most proud of with your work in your schools? And we'll have Pia answer this one first.

Pia Alliende:

Oh, me? Oh, well, I think that what I'm proud of it is that I proved that I can move mountains now in short time. No, that I mean my school district is, I don't know, since day one, I mean since a long time we're thinking about that in one of the meetings. And I think it's 2001 or so. I mean since the golden era of school libraries and certified librarian. I mean, they haven't have a certified librarian or coordination of libraries.

And I was there for a couple of three years between 2006 and nine. And then I returned a little bit before Covid and I started again kind of advocating for it. And I think that the most part that I'm proud of is kind of advocating for changing the vision of the library. That the library, that everyone is welcome I mean and that the student feel like it is a place where they can have lunch, that they can come, that they can be playful and enjoy finding new books if we have the budget for them. But I think that that is the most important thing is kind of changing and also fighting for more professional development for school librarians because they are not certified so they don't have the tools that we receive we want to college as certified librarians.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Wonderful, Pia, thank you. What about you K.C.?

K.C. Boyd:

I'm most proud of...especially the last five years of the work that I've been doing at Jefferson Academy. This is my 24th year working in education as a school librarian. And this was the toughest environment I have ever walked into. I shouldn't say the toughest, one of the toughest, primarily because this school had never really... The staff members had never really worked with a certified librarian. So they had a lot of antiquated views towards the position and the program. And then also that they really didn't understand the program that I was there to help and support the entire curriculum and to help them with instruction. So it was a lot of building relationships and establishing and developing the culture of reading in the school that took some time.

Some of it was quite painful and I am here to tell you, you can be a school librarian of the year, you could be very successful, you can be an award-winning librarian and you don't have much as any support, whether it be financial or just support period of your program. I hadn't neither in my school. And despite this, I have just said, "Okay, I'm going to figure out. I'm going to make this work and if I fall down, then I get back up, I dust myself off and I try it again." And that's what I'm really just proud of is that the library program has really grown and developed into a beautiful resource hub within the school. Not just the library, but also my maker space program, which they didn't understand either. So all this has grown and developed into just a beautiful program and I'm really proud of the work that I've done. I just want to keep it going.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yes. Well, your students are also very proud of the work that you've done, as is everyone in this room. It's phenomenal and we appreciate you, K.C. How about you, Andy?

Andy Spinks:

All right. I think probably the single thing that I'm most proud of is the studio, the recording studio that built and that is just incredibly popular with our students. It helps students find their voice, that's one of the most important parts of it. It builds community. But one of the most important things to me is that it creates basically a safe space for Black expression. And our students have shown me that that is incredibly valuable to them.

And kind of putting up a barrier around it almost of, I don't know, I don't want to give myself too much credit, but I feel like I try to protect that space against anti-Blackness. I think hip-hop especially is viewed through a very anti-Black lens by a lot of educators and I won't stand for that on my watch. And that has been, I think, very important to our students, at least that's what they've told me. And that is just part of what I've tried to do in making all students feel welcome in our library and it's a big part of it. We have a thousand individual students out of our 2,900 who visit the library every week. And I think that breadth of usage speaks to how wide our net is in terms of inviting students in.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Wonderful, wonderful work that you're doing, Andy. Thank you for all of your efforts to make your students feel included and seen.

Constance Palaia:

Yeah, it's super inspirational. Just as a follow up, do you offer professional development? What does that look like from a K-12 perspective? And do you have any advice for school library staff who are just starting out or who are in districts who don't currently have a district librarian? And I'm going to ask K.C. first.

K.C. Boyd:

Yeah, I'm fortunate that my district offers professional development. We have a director and a manager and I think we're one of the few districts in the country that has a director and a manager in central office. And what they do is that they work with the Library Corp, which is a 12 member body of librarians that work within the district and they...support of curricular and professional development. I'm on that team and we try and support to our very best efforts, our director and our manager in facilitating different types of professional development for the librarians in the district.

So the advice that I would have for school library staff who are just starting out is ask the librarians what are they interested in doing a deeper dive in. Get their opinion because it's very difficult when you have someone that makes a decision for you rather than getting that buy-in and really understanding where the deficient skills are and supporting the librarians that are working within the district. So that's really important element is that you've got to get the buy-in and you've got to get that feedback from the librarians to see what they need.

Andy Spinks:

Yeah, I'm in a very large district also and we have a district supervisor for library media programs. I was that supervisor for about five years. Very happy to be back at the school level now, but that role is very important in providing professional development opportunities for our district. And I try to contribute as much as I can to those offerings. But I'm glad that our current director is nurturing future leaders by pulling in other voices around the district. So Holly Freelow is doing a fantastic job there.

So for districts that aren't that big or aren't fortunate enough to have somebody to coordinate that at a district level, my advice would be to look into the Edcamp Model. I think there are a lot of barriers in terms of, I think a lot of library media specialists are doing fantastic work and they undervalue what they're doing. They don't recognize how great what it is that they're doing is and how valuable it would be to other people. And they also just don't have the time to put together formal presentations and plan far enough in advance to present at conferences and things like that.

So the Edcamp Model kind of does away with those barriers. You basically just all show up and work it out on site. You don't have to have anything prepared in advance. You just share what comes up, questions come up organically, and people have solutions for them. So I think that's a great model for smaller districts that don't have somebody to organize something huge for their district.

Constance Palaia:

Yeah, it's amazing what we all learned from each other. How about you, Pia?

Pia Alliende:

Well, I'm going to start picking your brain, Andy, but I'm the only certified librarian in Redmond and we have 12 library technicians. So this year is the first year that we got to get them, I mean, to offer to all of them to go to the Oregon Association of School Libraries fall conference. So and that was paid by the district so which was a very big deal. And eight of them went. And also they secured me an hour, a monthly hour with them monthly. And so I try to, that they were monthly. Some of them are going to be a month and a half or so, but one with the secondary librarians and one with the elementary librarians, which is the first time again in 20 years that they don't have any other professional development, that they are underpaid for what they have to do. So it's super important that they get their recognition.

And an advice, I would say, one, is reach out to the state library organization if they have a school library organization or in Oregon we have the School Library Organization and also the Oregon Library Association that they can get support from them. And also in our case, in Oregon, the State Library of Oregon also have specifically a person in charge of coordinating with school libraries that they don't have a certified librarian. And also she is Jen Moyer, and she's the first person that I would go if I have a question. She actually has a well of knowledge and very resourceful and very, very accessible. So that would be my advice. And also the advice of that they are willing to follow the tenants of librarianship, especially the privacy and the freedom to read. I think that they're open to, I mean, to embrace those tenants.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Wonderful, Pia, thank you for that. Pia, you mentioned the freedom to read, which will really move us perfectly into this next question. I don't think it's a surprise to any of our listeners out there that there has been a heightened amount of challenges against books and censorship happening. So my question is, does your district have a selection policy and a policy around challenging a book? And for this one, we're going to start with Andy.

Andy Spinks:

Yeah. Again, I work in a pretty large district and we've had a good district program for a long time so our policies are pretty mature at this point. They're pretty well established and maintained. So yes, we have both of those. I think it's essential.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Great. What about you, K.C.?

K.C. Boyd:

Yes, we do. My director and manager actually update it every year and in our case, with these recent book bans that have popped up across the country, we developed a subcommittee within our library corps to monitor book banning across the country. So I was on that committee last year and through my travels and also me attending different webinars and just learning what's taking place out there, I would bring this information back. And in many cases, we updated our policy based off of some things that other people experienced in their neck of the woods. So yes, it is a growing and evolving document.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

I love that you're giving attention and time to updating that and keeping up with not only what's in your area that's happening, but across the country. Thank you. And Pia, what about you and your school?

Pia Alliende:

In my school, the school library materials are inserted in the instructional material acquisition. And that is a policy that was just revised by the school board in August, I think, and approved in September. And I would say that is a pretty strong policy. The question is, and I don't know exactly how is widely known is and how, if we get into a challenge, how much, I mean, if everybody will follow... I mean, everybody should follow through to the reconciliation, so, but I don't know how much is... I mean, and one of my thing is with the librarians is that they know about it and they know how to proceed if they get a challenge and it's not like they'd get a challenge and they say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will hide the book," but actually follow through the protocol. Because the protocol is one and that is the thing that everybody has to be on board and backing up that protocol. And it's not like, "Okay, we have it, but we don't follow it."

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Thank you, Pia. And I'm sure that the school library staff's happy to have your support in that as well. So I've got another question that is loosely tied to that. Is there anything that has surprised you about the materials that have been challenged in your school or district? And for this one, we'll start with K.C.

K.C. Boyd:

Within my district, we have not as of today, received a formal challenge, okay? But I will say I'm very observant because we are in the DMV area, which is DC, Maryland, Virginia, and in Virginia and Maryland, we have observed some book challenges. And what's surprising to me over and over again, just the visceral reaction to LGBTQ+ books, books that have a different view on African-American history and then when you see the justifications and the reasons why people want these books pulled off of the shelf, it is just mind blowing and it's full of misinformation.

And that's what really surprises me, that adults that are really buying into the innuendo and the misinformation, the rumor mill on various social media platforms as well as some news platforms about certain books. So that's what really surprises me is the visceral reaction to some of these books, especially the books that affirm our kids and how they're missing that if these kids can't connect with some of these books, it could be in some cases life or death for them. And it shocks me that people are overlooking that purposely.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yeah. It's heartbreaking the amount of people that...they just don't want to see past themselves or their experiences. Pia, do you have anything that surprised you about materials that have been challenged in your area?

Pia Alliende:

Well, like K.C. said, in my district so far, I mean, I haven't been for a long time in here or steady. I have heard some, but nothing formal. And I think many of the challenge they have been solved kind of like with the parents. I mean, because usually if you put the parents understand or some... I mean, I think it's more the idea that they're a group, that they're outside of the school district are the one that are pushing more for or putting fear on our own parents. That is my impression.

That it's kind of like and also using kind of like they think that just because we use the idea of current news for kindergartners, they think that we're going to talk about, I don't know what with kindergartners. Instead of no, current news for a kindergartner could be like, "How is the weather outside?" So I think it's misinformation about also what the different words means. And in that case, in that sense, I think that, for example, the word diversity has been used in a very wrong way kind of thinking that is a list of books that means diversity instead of that each person has a different diversity when sees the books.

I mean, you go through a continuum. I can see myself in some books and other people in books that I'm sure that K.C. and the Constance and you are not going to see yourself. So it's a continuum and not I don't have a list. And sometimes they ask me for list of diversity books, which is I don't have one. And I heard one time a person that was asking if we have Stamped From the Beginning, or no, not even Stamped, the remix by Jason Reynolds. And since I didn't have any budget, I didn't have it, but I don't know what would have happened if I have it, so.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Thank you for that, Pia.

Constance Palaia:

Yeah, thank you. Andy, I'm going to start with you with this one. How big a problem is self censorship and how do you avoid it?

Andy Spinks:

I think self censorship is actually the underwater part of the iceberg of these book challenges because a book challenge, this process that you go through, even if you have a good solid, very strict policy, it's a pain. It's really time consuming. And even the most good faith book challenge feels like an attack to the library media specialist. It's embarrassing to have your collection challenged by someone, even if it's in good faith. So it's just way too easy to just not add that book to your cart that you know is a hot button title. It's easy to just stick with the easy, safe selections that don't represent the diversity of the world around us. So I think that is a huge problem.

We've got a couple of laws that have been passed here in Georgia that don't ban specific books, but they basically ban ideas and people don't want to run the risk of running afoul of the law, if you will, so they err on the side of extreme caution. So basically it's fear and that's the way they're designed to work. They're designed to make library media specialists fearful. These bills that get passed, that's a watered down version of where it started. Some of these bills started with criminalizing school librarians putting diverse books in the hands of students. So it's designed to strike fear in the hearts of library media specialists. So it's natural for folks who rely on the income and who are really love the profession to try to play it safe and not buy those titles that they know are going to be challenged. So yeah, I think it's the lion share of the problem really.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Andy, can I ask you a question to follow up on that?

Andy Spinks:

Sure, sure.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Do you have any advice for the folks out there who are ordering books that have that fear? They're seeing the book right in front of them and they're asking themselves, "Do I put this into the cart and risk having complications come from it or challenges come from it?" What's advice that you could give to those that are in that situation to get past that fear?

Andy Spinks:

Well, I guess I would say that the people who you see on the news or hear or read or about library meeting specialists losing their job over some book title, but out of all the thousands and thousands and thousands of libraries across the country, you're seeing one extreme case in the news. So it's not a common issue for librarians to get fired over a book. And that's the reason the reconsideration policy is there so that the book gets taken out, not the librarian. So look realistically, what are the chances that you will get fired for buying books that you have a dozen recommendations or reviews to back up? The risk is actually much lower than Twitter would make it seem.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Thank you for sharing that, Andy.

Constance Palaia:

Yeah, and Pia, what's your take on this question?

Pia Alliende:

Well, one thing in the conference last week, I mean, we had a conversation about freedom to read and the challenges and there are  in Oregon that they have been treated badly but and they're super brave and courageous. And for me, they are my heroes because I don't know if I would be so courageous with that. And when I mentioned that in our conversation, kind of like I feel bad, I mean that maybe I'm self censoring myself that I don't want to be in the news. I don't want to be because I already am pretty stressed out.

But what they say on that that gave me also some relief is give credit to yourself also. I mean, treat yourself. I mean that you have doing as much as you can, I mean as much you as human being, I mean with your limitations, your own self as a human being, that you are not insane, that you are not going to... I mean and some people are know better how to take care of themselves or they are more... But don't I guess it's not chastise yourself or don't punish yourself for something that you are trying to do the best that you can so kind of taking care of each other.

Constance Palaia:

Yeah. Thank you. And K.C., do you have something to add to this?

K.C. Boyd:

What I can say about this is that, let's look at the bullies in the school yard. I kind of liken this situation to that. It's bullying, it's adult bullying. And as I said earlier, it's built on a lot of misinformation. I always want my parents to be a part of decisions and conversations. But what drives me nuts is that when it's built off of things that are not true and when you try and explain to them that what they're thinking is not true and they just don't want to listen. That's obviously very annoying.

Standing up for your students. It takes a lot of bravery, it really does. And everybody can't do it and we have to respect those who cannot do it. But I also say this and challenge this to any librarian that has a MLIS, if you are purposely putting books on vacation because you want to avoid a possible challenge or you want to just keep the hoopla down in your community, I challenge you to take a hard look at yourself in the mirror every morning. Because we take an oath as school librarians to deliver excellence to provide the very best service, and most importantly is to help children identify books that are meaningful to them in their lives. And if we're censoring, now that's a huge problem, and it goes against our principles that we follow as librarians.

So I'm very opinionated about this subject because I was hit with the same issue years ago when I was a... And I still am. I promote street literature, otherwise known as urban fiction. There was a visceral reaction to that genre and now it's calmed down years later, ten years later. I feel that once this election is over with, I think that things are going to calm itself down because this is definitely an election talking point. And unfortunately our kids are caught in the middle of this nonsense. So that's kind of my take on it.

Andy Spinks:

I wanted to add one more little piece of advice for folks that might be afraid of books being challenged. It's just a little small thing. Check to see if your catalog, if you can turn off guest access to your catalog. It's an inconvenience for your students but people outside your school community shouldn't be searching your catalog. So that extra little step of logging in, if it's not too big a barrier for your students and that's going to vary by grade level and whether your district has a single sign on and all of that kind of stuff. But for us, it's one extra click and I turn that off for my catalog.

I have a colleague who did the same thing and she went back and said, "Thank you so much for telling me to do that because I had somebody call asking if we had certain books." Then she said, "I started searching this woman up, and she didn't have a student who was high school age." She was talking about, "I want to find out if I should send my child there." Well, her child was in second grade, so yeah, so she was looking to go on the attack and just having that guest access turned off so you have to be a member of the school community to search saved her a heap of trouble. So that's my little two cents of advice.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yeah, that's great advice, Andy. Thank you for sharing that tip. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of libraries and educators out there. So my next question is for Pia. And this one is kind of the opposite side of the coin that we've been talking about. So we know book challenges often revolve around books that affirm by BILAPOC and LGBTQ+ lives and experiences. How do you identify and address books that actually should be removed from our libraries because they are not representative or contain misleading history and information?

Pia Alliende:

Well, when I think about this question is I did a lot of weeding during Covid and that gave me a huge kind of learning of the collection that I have. And besides the fact that they were old books, I mean why, especially because in it's usually the common knowledge or common in my community at least, is you don't throw away books. You don't weed books, you keep all the books that... Because otherwise we that we're saying that it's the freedom to read and no censorship are kind of censoring books, but weeding is part of the collection development. And it's not because of that we are censoring them, but because they might not be relevant right now or they maybe they are reproducing harmful stereotypes. And that is what I... And when I decide, and usually I don't remove the books. I just don't, I mean if I see that they have some value, I just leave them in the shelf and if somebody wants to check them out, I explain the issues that they have.

And that I hope... And especially, I mean when they're teachers, I can explain to them what is so could be a teaching moment. I'm a history in my background, so every single book has a history. I mean, for an historian, it's super useful. But I can give you a couple of example of the books that I found in the library that I decided that they can go to a corner. I mean, they can stay one copy, but is not something that I'm going to promote. And that is kind of three places to go, especially with Native-American books, I found lots of stereotypes. And for example, Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott O'Dell and Touching Spirit Bear by Ben Mikaelsen. My first person to go is Dr. Debbie Reese. And you have a podcast with... I have the Honor to listen to that podcast and be... I mean, when I didn't interview her but I listened to that and I have heard her in many, many occasions.

And also at the American-Indians and Children Literature is my stop to read about books. And especially it's kind listening to the voices of those groups. I mean, so the Island of the Blue Dolphin and Touching Spirit Bear, for example, a lot of teachers and librarian love those books, I mean, they are well written, but the same time, they're stereotyped. There are things that they are not real from certain tribes. So they promote or they show rights or customs that they're not true. People say, "Oh, but it's fiction." But if you are going to use a culture or a group of people that they have that they exist, you should do your homework, I mean, if you are not part of that group. So I usually try to dive in with that.

And the other one that caught my attention when I was Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin, that has been, I mean actually I was even talking to my former principal about it, and I show it to him. And then I was doing my research about that book and I was reading professors and African-American professors saying and the Black community saying that what they were not happy about that book. I mean, it was a book also published in 1965, '61. So I don't think that is today's library, middle school library, has a place. I think has a place maybe in another library, but also was for me, what struck me is the idea that you have to be white to believe what is the experience of the Black person. That is one of the things that I read from the Black community that didn't like about that the book was still kind of going.

It seems that the author was an amazing person and very with a lot of empathy. But I think that today, I believe that there are many voices that we can hear from and many books, amazing books that they're written by the different groups and representation that we should listen to them, listen to educators and librarians, professors that belong to those groups and see what they can suggest. So that and what they can say about some of the books that they feel that they're harmful and they're harmful, especially for the students that are from those groups, so. Because they're perpetuating things or they might feel like, "Oh, I don't know, they're getting the idea that I'm like that. I'm not."

And the GLSEN Rainbow, for example, for LGBTQ books is an amazing source of information. I reached to them. I mean, they were very great, they gave us a collection of books that was really appreciated. But then I attend a webinar with them and was really eye opening for me to see how I can support my students and my community and how to also show, display those books and celebrate them.

So I don't know if that answer or not the question, but I mean, these are some of the things that I've been doing and it takes a lot of time. I mean, I have a teacher that she asked me if I have a Spirit Bear and we have it, I mean the Touching Spirit Bear, and we have ten. And I was like, "Oh, no." But then I talked to her and I explained so she said that they read it and that she explained to students all... I mean, there was a conversation about the things that they not... That the portrayal was... So it was a good conversation she said. So I hope that that help.

Or To Kill a Mockingbird, that is another one. So I sent tons of information because last year they were reading that in eighth grade. So I sent, and in the past two years, they have developed a lot of resources to kind of support the teaching of that book. And if they still want to teach it's like, "Okay, teach it, but teach it I mean, in so many levels." I mean the understanding has to be in so many, many levels and with lots of background. And there are another ones like picture books that they portrayed kind of like the images are not... So those ones, I mean, it's just... And I listen to the expert, I don't decide by myself.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Well, Pia, thank you for taking that extra step to do research and to educate yourself about the folks that are writing these books and where that information is coming from and then going even further to prioritize, highlighting and really pushing for books that have that accurate representation. So my next question, I'm going to start with Andy on this one. Other than direct book bans, what sort of attacks have you seen on the freedom to read?

Andy Spinks:

Yeah, I've kind of surprised at some of the way some of these things slipped in there for us. We haven't actually, thankfully, have not dealt with a direct book challenge in my school. But a couple things that did happen, a colleague of mine and I were offering a book study for the teachers at our school and this was pre- George Floyd summer. We were trying to do basically an anti-racism book study to help teachers, especially white teachers, identify things they might not be aware of and how they can be better about teaching students of color. And so we offered this optional book study completely voluntary after school and had a couple of great meetings. We had a very diverse group doing it. Some teachers of color were really sharing some eye-opening things. And it was just great.

We had a couple of meetings and word came down from the district level via our principal that we were no longer allowed to have this book study on campus. "You can have your book study, but you got to do it off campus," which basically is a killer. Teachers aren't going to get in their car and go drive to another place to do a book study. We actually tried to do it once and just nobody can do that. So I had pushed back and asked for... said, "Surely this is a misunderstanding. These books have talked about in all the education leadership journals that I'm sure you're reading. So I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding, but if not, can you just put it in writing to us and so I can share it with the other 20 something teachers that volunteered to be part of this. And of course they came back and said, "No," and they would not put it in writing because it was clearly wrong. So yeah, that's one thing that happened to us.

Another thing that happened, I had finally did sort of a slow roll out of the Read Woke program from the great Cecily Lewis and just sort of a soft Covid start, but that was right when the word "woke" got poisoned. And we had somebody called about it one afternoon asking about it and by the next day there was a directive coming down from the district, again, not in writing, but saying we had to take the entire Read Woke thing and shove it down the memory hole. We had to take down any posters, get rid of the T-shirts, take it off our website, all of that, had to disappear it. So those are kinds of things that happen that aren't specifically to challenging specific titles just in our school.

Another thing, and I think I mentioned this earlier about the laws that have been passed in Georgia, that one is about divisive concepts and it's basically a really confusing law about discussing race in instruction and it's intended to cause fear. The things that they can legally ban teachers from talking about are pretty far out there and nobody's really doing that anyway. But if you create enough confusion, then teachers will react with fear.

And there's another similar law dealing with what they call materials that are "harmful to minors." And the definition there is straight out of the legal definition of obscenity. Basically to meet the definition, it would have to be pornography. But it's really confusing and it really it's intended to cause fear. And so school librarians start self-censoring because they don't want to run afoul of this law, so. And again, that's not about a specific title, it's just a way that lawmakers have created that fear that leads to self censorship without a direct book ban. So, and if I'm seeing those sorts of things, I know there are tons of other things that your other listeners have experienced that are attacks on the freedom to read that don't fit into the standard definition of a book ban.

Pia Alliende:

I have some, I mean, I was thinking while you were talking about those censorship and but one that I deal every day is the freedom to read in any language, the language that you want to read. I mean, we have 20% of students that are Spanish speakers and also the idea that representation does matter. I mean, so in that sense, and maybe it's more like an advice, it's kind of like when you have a program, try to bring authors that are from your groups that they're underrepresented or because they do matter. It does matter that they are there, that they speak to those children.

And also the idea that we expand our collection. Our collection in Spanish, I mean our entire collection is very old, so….but also keep in mind that we are putting a barrier, if we say "freedom to read," you need to kind of break the barrier of language. And also not just because I mean English, they should learn English, they shouldn't be forbid to read their own language. So it's more like they should celebrate that they read another language. And so in certain degree and sometimes if we don't speak the language, we're like, "Well, I don't know Mandarin, so I cannot talk to that person." But I can make an effort to provide those resources to that student that doesn't know enough English to read in English, to have materials that are in their own language.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Thank you, Pia. And thank you Andy, for sharing those perspectives and stories. I mean, it's so hard to hear that there are so many challenges and barriers to being able to see yourself in programming and see yourself in books. But thank you for finding ways to find workarounds for those barriers and then hopefully, ultimately knock them down.

Constance Palaia:

School Library Journal recognizes a new recipient for the School Librarian of the Year award each year with 2023 nominations due soon on December 5th. What advice do you have for those nominating themselves or nominating a colleague for this award? I'm going to ask K.C. first.

K.C. Boyd:

One thing, it's important that you need to be yourself. Don't be something that you're not to be nominated because people look up to you in this respect when you are given this recognition and this award. And you want to be your true, authentic self. Because on many levels, I mean, I didn't ask to serve as an example. I am like an example for other librarians and that comes with a responsibility. And also it comes with the responsibility of the things that I have to be mindful of what I say and what I do, but also being very true to myself.

I have this hashtag that's called #SchoolLibrarianStruggleBus, and I put it on Instagram and Twitter. I will tell you when things are not going well, the kids are not cooperating, this project I thought was going to work out really well in my maker space lab, it just totally bombs. And so I put it online and I say, "Hey, screw it. #SchoolLibrarianStruggleBus, it's not working. I'm just going to have to go back to the drawing board or I just give up." We have those days and just because you want to apply for the School Librarian of the Year position or have somebody nominate you, just realize that you are human. You come with flaws and mistakes and just be your true, authentic self. And just be honest with everyone that you encounter throughout the nomination process. And if you're blessed to win, just be honest.

Constance Palaia:

How about you, Pia?

Pia Alliende:

The advice I would give is more to the people that wants to amplify voices. So because I never ever thought that I could be final, I mean, I never even crossed my mind that I could even compete in this. If it weren't for Ericka, I don't think that it would be the radar of anybody. So in that sense, my advice is for the rest of the people that look around, educators, principals, administration, library technicians, look at your certified librarians and they want that you and so be the amplifier. Be the person that can...and if you can see one that is the people of color, better apply for those people because they deserve to be amplified because they're everybody.

I know so many school librarians that I think that we are representing them. So I'm asking, I mean my advice is for that, try to find the person that you think that is doing really good work and then apply. I mean, tell them, apply for them. And also find, I call them supply channels, so, the people that can write awesome letter of reference letters and recommendation, because those are... look for the allies that you have in your life. And when you get elected, be happy, honor and surprised like I was.

Constance Palaia:

Thank you. Andy?

Andy Spinks:

Yeah, so my advice I guess is to the people who are doing great things and may not realize it. They see people around them doing great things but may not realize how good their efforts are. So don't let the impostor syndrome keep you from applying. Even just the process of applying for something like this is a good evaluation of yourself and a good evaluation of your program. So you stand to gain from it even just by applying. And when you do apply, you have to fit everything you want to say into, what was it, two pages, something like that.

So my advice there is to pick a theme, pick a narrative thread or something that ties everything together. Because library media specialists do so much, we wear so many different hats. We juggle, we spin so many plates that it's hard to... Especially if you've been in this business as long as some of us have, it's hard to know how you pare down what you're going to fit into those pages. So my advice on weeding that down is just to pick a theme, pick a concept that you're going to hammer in every aspect of that application and focus on that so it paints a picture of what you do for the folks that are going to be reading it.

Pia Alliende:

Can I add something? That since this podcast is going also to the academic library, I mean people that listen is in the library world. It's also is an advice to public librarians or academic librarians, that they look at who is the school librarian in your district? Who is your child's school librarian? I mean, and maybe highlight them. I mean, be an Ericka, be an amplifier like Ericka because I know that she is a firm believer in amplifying different voices, so.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Thank you for that, Pia. I would be remiss if I did not say, because you've mentioned multiple times that it was because of me that you got this honor and I did nothing but look at all of the fabulous work that you do every day and all of the lives that you touch with your dedication and experience and perspective. And I just put that together on paper. So this award is absolutely yours as is the award and honor for Andy and K.C.

We were so thrilled to have you today on Overdue, Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries. We've really enjoyed hearing about your experiences working in schools, listening to your valuable perspectives on book challenges and censorship, and gaining more of an understanding of what our school library staff colleagues are facing in their line of work. Are there any last things you'd like to share with our listeners?

Pia Alliende:

The deadline. Where is the deadline to application? Is December 5th or not?

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

It is. It's December 5th, 2022. I'm going to add that year on there in case we have any listeners that are listening in the future.

Pia Alliende:

And thank you very much for having us.

Andy Spinks:

My parting shot is, if you aren't already, go follow K.C. Boyd on social media.

Pia Alliende:

Oh yes. And also, yeah, if you're a librarian, I mean, I think everybody should follow her. I'm super...and also because I learn a lot in her clubhouse also.

K.C. Boyd:

Well, thank you. But I will say this, it looks easy, but it does come with a lot of pain.

Pia Alliende:

No.

K.C. Boyd:

It's not easy to run programs without any support or money, you know? And I don't have the best relationship with my principal or district because sometimes when you take a stand on an issue, you are kind of viewed as being difficult. And that's not the case. I just thought that what was taking place with certain kids in the district was inequity in service. And I just want to see fairness for all kids regardless of zip codes and income level in the district. So that was always been my main push. It's not about jobs, it's more about these kids need and they deserve a full-time certified librarian. So yeah, it might seem easy, but it comes with a lot of work and a lot of pain, believe you me.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yes. Well, thank you for your courage in advocating for your students and thank you all again for joining us. It's been a very lovely discussion and we know that all of the things that come with being librarians or working in school libraries and that have a little bit more rigorous rules than some of our public libraries or even academic libraries, it's not always going to be sunshine and rainbows. But we appreciate that you get up every day and you keep fighting for the freedom to read, for your students and for your communities.

Andy Spinks:

Thank you so much for having me.

Pia Alliende:

Thank you.

K.C. Boyd:

Thank you.

Constance Palaia:

Thank you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Well, Constance, that was such a fabulous conversation. I know that being in the public library realm, I often don't get to peek behind that curtain of some of the issues and barriers that are occurring in our schools every day. And so being able to hear those perspectives and those experiences will really help me be more cognizant about ways that our public library can support our school educators and school library staff.

So something that was a big takeaway for me was K.C. talked about how they developed that Freedom to Read subcommittee. I believe that's what it was called. And essentially it was that group of folks that were looking at what was happening nationwide in school libraries and with book challenges that were occurring and using that information to see how strong their policies are or to update their policies at their library. And I was so thankful to hear that they have not yet received a book challenge, but it sounds like that work that they're doing and that pre-work in making sure their policies are up to date will really be beneficial if and when a book challenge would happen.

So my challenge to listeners out there is to see if you can get together a subcommittee or a small group, or even if it's just yourself that's keeping up to date about some of the challenges that are happening in school libraries and just in public entities. And being prepared by looking at your policies and seeing how would you handle that if it was something that was challenged at your library. What about you, Constance?

Constance Palaia:

I agree with that too and it's interesting to know that so many of us really do worry that when we go to work every day, there is a little bit of fear of what could happen. I was struck by Pia talking about language in what we have in our school libraries, that all our kids need to be able to read things that are in their own language and that they can relate to. And that brings in her talking about representation and the books that we tend to use in curriculum that perhaps aren't true representation and often aren't. But that instead of weeding those books so they just disappear and we never have the conversation, I think that my challenge would be identify those books that often are used in curriculum, identify books that maybe you can talk to your teachers and say, "Have you thought of using this one? This is why this one's problematic." But don't necessarily get rid of them because we don't have the conversation that way. We don't know why there's a problem as just disappearing it and then nobody learns. So perspective.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Absolutely. Well, hopefully our listeners out there have two great challenges to move forward with after this wonderful conversation with K.C., Andy, and Pia. And Constance, I have enjoyed co-hosting with you today.

Constance Palaia:

Thank you. Likewise.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette:

Yes. Hopefully we'll have the opportunity again. Thanks so much.

Constance Palaia:

Thanks.

[Voiceover]

This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon.

Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.

[Voiceover]

We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African-American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed Indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native-American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgment aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade and forced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.

[Outro Music Playing]