Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
The Enduring Impact of Reformation Day on Modern Faith and Theology
Explore the transformative legacy of Reformation Day with us and our distinguished guest, Dr. Walter Johnson, a seasoned expert in church history and theology. Discover how the monumental events sparked by Martin Luther's 95 Theses in 1517 continue to shape modern faith and emphasize the importance of returning to biblical authority. Through engaging discussions, we reflect on the profound reactions of students encountering historical figures like John Bunyan and Jonathan Edwards, underscoring the enduring influence of Reformation principles on contemporary religious thought.
We also tackle the necessity of engaging with differing theological views, especially in an era rife with misinformation. Highlighting the misconceptions surrounding figures like John Calvin and Martin Luther, we stress the importance of reading primary sources to foster a clearer understanding of theological positions. These insights set the stage for a broader conversation about the Reformation's lasting impact on Protestant beliefs and its relevance to current issues, including the role of Christian citizenship in light of the upcoming presidential election. This episode promises a deeper appreciation for the historical milestones that continue to guide our faith journey today.
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Well, good morning and welcome to the latest episode of Career Conversations. My name is Jeff Robinson. I'm your host. Travis Kearns, who is usually my co-host, is in jury duty today serving his county well, and he will not be with us. But today we have a special guest whom I'll introduce in just a moment. We are back after missing last month on the day we were set to record, Hurricane Helene came through the upstate and into western North Carolina and you know what happened. We're still praying for our friends over in western North Carolina and seeking to serve them in what some people call damage. That's like the end of the world, and so it is. So continue to pray for them, but we're glad to be back here on recording this.
Speaker 1:October 30th, the day before Halloween for a lot of people, but for many of us Reformation Day, which is going to be our topic today, and I am very privileged to have with me Dr Walter Johnson, and that is a name many of you will know instantly. Dr Johnson is recently retired after 32 years as a professor. Teaching a little bit of everything at North Grandville University was part of that reformation there, as God brought that school back from nearly the dead about three decades ago, and so today, Dr Johnson is a scholar in many areas church history and theology and that's what we're going to be talking about today. So, Dr Johnson, it is great to have you back with us today, my pleasure.
Speaker 2:I am delighted to be here. I appreciate the invitation.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get right into it. We don't have a lot of time. I always feel like we're out of time always when I'm preaching or teaching or whatever it is. I'm sure you can relate to that. That must mean we have the gift of long-windedness, as I've been naturally teased about before. But today we're going to talk about the Protestant Reformation, october 31st 1517.
Speaker 1:Many people know the story, many people don't. The great reformer, martin Luther, nailed his 95 theses, his 95 disputations. The church stored in Wittenberg, germany, and launched the Protestant Reformation, the greatest revival, probably after Pentecost, in the history of the church. And if you are a Protestant, you are a protester and you are the son or daughter of the Reformation, and that's how you got there. Baptists and Pentecostals and Methodists and Lutherans and Presbyterians and Congregationalists, and none of the above who are Protestants and Evangelicals you are a son or daughter of the Reformation. So for many of us, tomorrow is Reformation Day. I know my church celebrated that with a sermon Sunday on one of the five solas of the Reformation, sola Gratia, and we sang A Mighty Fortress is Our God and other Reformation-themed hymns. And so tell us about why we should care about Reformation Day tomorrow, on October 31st?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd love to answer that, but I also want to back up just a second to what you were saying, that your church celebrated this. I actually preached at a church Sunday and the first thing I said to them was happy Reformation Sunday. And I said how many of you know what Reformation Day is? No one raised their hand. So I'm afraid that may not be out of the ordinary, but I also took the liberty to do one of the solas. I did sola fide justification by faith alone. But not many people actually know.
Speaker 2:But you know, reformation Day is important, you know? I mean, I think I probably want to back up again and say almost any of these days Christmas or whatever else those are celebrations. Almost any of these days Christmas or whatever else those are celebrations and they are reminders of us that we're celebrating something. And so when you say Reformation Day, we celebrate it. We celebrate it because it calls to our memories some things that are very important. It lets us see, in some ways, the rock out of which we were hewn or out of which we grew. It reminds us of those solas, of this great return to the Bible as being the sole authority. It gives us an opportunity to do what I guess you and your church and I did both, and that's go back to these foundational doctrines of the church that had somehow been obscured, to say the least, in medieval Catholicism, and so it's a reminder of who we are and helps us keep a focus on where we need to go.
Speaker 1:I'm like you. I'm privileged to teach. In addition to my role here as president of the Baptist Courier, I teach church history at North Greenville University. In fact, you hired me and interviewed me and we talked about the Reformation interview back in 2020, as I recall. But I'm really amazed at student reactions to Reformation, theology and the Reformation itself. We just finished about, I think, 10 weeks on the Reformation. We finished Puritanism Monday night. I think we spent two weeks on Puritanism in England, puritanism in America.
Speaker 1:Theology, the major figures and you know John Bunn and John Owen, jonathan Edwards, all those wonderful folks and one most of my students had not heard of any of these people. And two, they were deeply edified by what they believed and you know and I'm sure I know you've done this over the years, reading some of the writings out loud, some of the primary sources, just reading, say, john Bunyan from Grace Abounding and the Chief Among Sinners. I read a section to them and read Richard Baxter's dying words, john Owen's dying words, I think it was, and they were just amazed at how godly these Reformed Christians were and were their hearts. My students' hearts seemed to be deeply warmed by their words and by what they believed and how they saw the world.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, when they're able to hear and I'm finding what you find they're deeply moved by it. But my fear is we're sort of living in a day where I think maybe history as a whole does not mean as much to Protestants and maybe Baptists in particular. I had a former colleague that said you know, baptists don't seem to care much about history, presbyterians almost worship it. You know, and those are both exaggerations a little bit, but I think there's that issue that we're always having to face in Christianity and that's that line between the experiential and the cognitive, religious experience as opposed to the doctrinal truth side of the faith, of the faith. And in those times, like we saw it with some folks in the Great Awakenings and all that, where there was such an emphasis on the experience, the cognitive side of it on a popular level is sometimes not as appreciated.
Speaker 2:Now, when I taught Baptist history at North Greenville, one of the first questions I would ask is why are you a Baptist?
Speaker 2:And out of all the times that I did, I had them actually write it on a sheet of paper without putting their name on it. And out of every time that I taught it I ended up being, I guess, over 100 students, only one person was able to actually give me an answer other than something like well, my parents were, or that's more what the Bible teaches but when they got into the course they enjoyed the course. But if we overstress the experiential and we certainly need the experience I'm from the old school I think if you don't have a certain experience like regeneration, you're in serious trouble. But we have to keep that proper balance to where theology is important, and of course theology was vital in that issue of the Reformation. And so, yeah, the theology is important, the history is important and I think when people are presented with it they really do become more appreciative. I'm just not sure we've done that good of a job presenting it to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I mean history as a whole. I think some young people view history as almost punishment. Having to read history it's almost like having to write 500 times. I don't like writing or something like that.
Speaker 2:Well, and it is again part of the idea that many people have is okay, jesus died, he rose from the dead, and now here we are.
Speaker 1:That's right. My grandmother got saved and now here I am. It's like now wait a minute.
Speaker 2:There's hundreds and hundreds of years in between here and a lot has happened that's molded and shaped who we are and how we respond, and those things are very important. But, as I said, a lot of people come to appreciate it when they're presented with that, but a lot of people the Christian faith is I really don't need theology, I don't need history. You know, jesus saved me. I prayed this morning. The Holy Spirit lives in me and hey, isn't that all that we need? Well, it's all you need to get to heaven, but it's not all you need to flourish as a believer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why do you think? In my experience as a Southern Baptist over the years, is that these names like John Calvin in particular, but also, to a lesser degree maybe, martin Luther, john Knox and others and the theology it provokes in people a very profound emotional reaction, either for in favor of it or, you know, as we say in the Deep South, we either for it or against it. And it seems like, you know, we've seen a resurgence in what's been called by Time Magazine the new Calvinism and a lot of young people really engaging, sound doctrine and what's been called big God theology. But it seems like it does provoke either a love or hate in people in terms of when you actually start to unpack the theology. Why do you think that's true?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of times, I think, it's because of just a misunderstanding. They hear, you know, for instance, if somebody mentions Calvin or something, they say, well, okay, you know. There's a guy, how in the world he believed that babies are going to hell, which Calvin didn't believe? That did not. But people, first of all again, I think it's to some degree a mental laziness they're not willing to nuance these positions. Also, I think a sign of an educated person is to be able to engage with an idea without imbibing it, that if we have to understand what other people are saying and let them say it in their own words. I think, really, you know, it's like everything else.
Speaker 2:The internet has been a blessing. It has been a curse, but one of the blessings that comes from it is that people now can actually listen to people who hold a specific theological viewpoint, explain their own viewpoint rather than somebody else who opposes them explain that viewpoint or mis-explain it and then build a straw man and then criticize it, and they're criticizing a position that nobody holds. So I think, with the coming of the Internet and social media, what people in both camps, whether it's more of a Calvinist or more of Armenian they can actually say what they believe and you hear it from them and in a lot of cases, when people hear that, they were saying, okay, that's not what I thought it was. For instance, most people are not aware of how evangelistic John Calvin was you know, with John Knox, following going all over Scotland.
Speaker 2:You know, people are just not aware of that. So I think people are misinformed. The more they're informed, they don't necessarily agree Now many people will but many people, even though they don't agree, they at least say okay, I understand now what's being said and we need to be able to discuss varying views without necessarily imbibing those views.
Speaker 2:I always tried when I was teaching, obviously, whoever I was representing most're not most of the theologians passed away, but I always made it a practice to try to say I'm going to explain this person's view as fairly as I can, as if that person were standing here. When I got through, they said that's exactly what I'm saying. So a lot of people, I think, once they hear other theologians, other theologies that are not necessarily the ones that they believe, they start saying in many cases well, that's not what I thought. We're not as far apart as I thought we were. But even if we are, we need to be able to be aware and to discuss and, again, to be able to do so without imbibing a position, to be able to discuss it and know what it is, and if you don't know what another position is, you can't legitimately critique it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That is very wise, and I've sought to do the same thing, and my mentors encourage us to do the same thing. In fact, in the PhD program at Southern Seminary, if you wanted to get in trouble in colloquium, just come with a caricature and you would get jumped on with both feet, and rightly so. I appreciated that because I needed that, probably more than some of the other guys did. I liked polemics, or what I thought were polemics, but thankfully the Lord has hopefully matured me some since those days, but this whole.
Speaker 1:There's a notion out there that the Reformers had nothing to say to the lost, that the the reformers had nothing to say to the lost, that the Reformation had very little to say to the lost. And in 2014, my friend Michael Haken and I co-wrote a book to try to address that through Calvin, especially because this is especially an accusation made against Calvin, that Calvin had nothing to say to the lost. We wrote a book called To the Ends of the Earth that you can still get through Crossway. That really refutes that. And honestly, it wasn't hard Reading Calvin's commentaries, for example, john 3 and 1, peter and all these passages supposed to be the sort of Arminian passages.
Speaker 1:It was his love for the lost and concern for the lost was very clear. His desire to see the gospel promoted and preached promiscuously, as we call it, was clear, preached to everybody. You know, the general call of the gospel to him was very clear In the institutes. It was clear and so it wasn't hard. I think a good MDiv student, or maybe a mediocre MDiv student, could have mined those, you know, those primary sources and written an MDiv paper that made the same point we sought to make. But I hear that, and a lot of times it's because they haven't written or they've just not read Calvin. Do you think that's true?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, or they've heard somebody else, as I said, tell you what Calvin said and said well, if he believes in this, why would he believe in evangelism? It's like, well, read him and find out why he would. But the same thing was true with Martin Luther. I mean, one of the main problems that's in the 95 Theses is he's complaining to the Pope with this, with Tetzel going on hawking these indulgences, you are basically sending people to hell. You know, they're not hearing the gospel and they think they're okay because they've had. You know, people have paid money to get their loved ones out of purgatory and now they can escape hell by these indulgences. And so one of the main concerns that Luther had in that 95 Theses was, you know, salvation of lost souls. That's right.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of times, as I said, if people say, well, if a person believes, you know, in Calvin's form of predestination by the way, luther was much stronger than Calvin was. Most people aren't aware of that but well, you couldn't believe in evangelism. Well, again, they haven't taken the time to read those sources and they've just listened to people third parties tell you what Calvin said or whatever, rather than reading Calvin or somebody that could faithfully exposit what Calvin was saying. So I think a lot of times it's just we're not serious enough to get those things read them, and a lot of times, hey, we're all guilty of this. We just want to listen to people that are gonna support our view, and so we don't just by nature, we don't want our views challenged, but that's the only way we can actually grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean the whole point of the Reformation was the recovery of the gospel. It was a recovery model. Right, they were recovering. Calvin used the language of eclipse that behind a lot of the false teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and what they saw as superstitions I think rightly so extra-biblical teachings, was the gospel going into eclipse and so they're seeking to bring it back. And the whole point is the salvation of souls. And I think that should be an obvious point to us, that that was what they and the Reformers, luther and Calvin especially. They spent their days running for their lives. They were being pursued by the Roman Catholic Church and they laid their lives on the line to recover the gospel. So Calvin had planted churches out of Geneva in France and they had an aborted attempt in Brazil, which again that's in our book. But yeah, I think that's just an obvious. It should be a very obvious truth to us that it was a recovery of the gospel for the salvation of souls, for evangelism, so that William Carey could go to India and preach the gospel and thousands of others in the days since.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you this You've been involved in local church ministry and pastoring and doing interims and all kinds of things over the years and I've been a pastor for a long time. How would you encourage a pastor to approach a Reformation Day? Say, you're a young pastor, you go into a church. They've really never heard of the Reformation, but you want them to be edified by these truths, and even what we call Reformation Day. How should he approach that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think a pastor needs to first of all make sure that he has convinced his congregation that he's a Bible preacher. I don't know if he thought that I would touch that if a church wasn't used to hearing it the first year or two. But when a pastor is trustworthy, I think a great way to do it is involving some history lessons in the sermon to explain what has gone on, why we are Baptists or why we are Protestants, and underscore that with the Scriptures, support it with the Scriptures. But I think bringing the history and the theology together is very important, but always going back into the primacy of Scripture.
Speaker 2:And one thing I would say Protestants do not agree with Roman Catholics until today. But I also would want to point out that medieval Catholicism was not Catholicism's finest hour, if I could say it that way. There's no Roman Catholic today, no scholar, priest or whatever that would look back and say those were the good old days. They knew things were wrong. They know it now and so you know. I wouldn't want somebody to judge me on the worst day I ever lived. And I would say the same thing about Catholicism. We are not there. We do not agree with them, and even though progress has been made in some areas, the Reformation is not over by any means, but Roman Catholicism is not where it was in the Middle Ages, and we're to be thankful for that. That's right.
Speaker 1:I tell my students church history is nothing more than 2,000 years of the battle for the Bible. The Reformation was a battle for the Bible. The conservative resurgence in the SBC was a battle for the Bible. Until Jesus comes, we're going to be in a battle for the Bible because it's the soul of Scripture.
Speaker 2:The Bible is going to be fought in every generation, that's right. You don't fight that battle, as you're saying, and get it over. Every generation is going to have to fight it, but it's the most important issue, because the most foundational issue in theology is the issue of authority. That's right. What is our authority? Because every answer actually flows from that.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's what makes Sola Scriptura the epistemological foundation for everything we do and such an important. If we need to recover something today or continue Semper Reformanda, always reforming, it's on that issue, isn't it? Because it leads to all the other. The other four.
Speaker 2:That's why it's called. You know, belief in the full authority. Scripture only was the formal cause of the reformation. The cause, basically, was they had the wrong authority.
Speaker 1:And, of course, the big doctrine, the key doctrine justification by faith alone, which you alluded to earlier. That was the recovery of the gospel, that was the material cause.
Speaker 2:That's right. You had a formal cause and a material cause. Exactly, the formal cause was the scriptures only and the material cause was justification by faith.
Speaker 1:Well, unfortunately we have to wrap this up. This is far too short a brief talk for such a massively important issue. So what are you doing on October 31st? We'll be listening to this. This will download, hopefully October 31st. Some of you will get it later. But so what? Are you preaching somewhere? Are you doing something?
Speaker 2:Well, I did my preaching. I do preach next Sunday, which will be after, but before I did I said I was preaching at a church somewhere else where a pastor was out of town, and I did take that opportunity to speak with the church, as I said before, and ask them if they knew what it was, and then to explain to them what it was, and they seemed to be very appreciative of it. But this coming Sunday I don't know if I'll preach something similar and say let's look back and see what day we just had. But you can't hit those solas too often or too hard. We need those. They are at the very core, the very heart of our faith. That's right.
Speaker 1:Well, when we think of the Reformation, and Calvin in particular, we tend to think of the doctrine of election predestination. So I'll use that as a somewhat awkward segue into just about one minute here as we finish up on what's happening in our country. Next Tuesday, someone told me that we're going to vote on a president. I seem to see that every time I turn the television on or get on the internet.
Speaker 2:I've heard the same thing.
Speaker 1:So we just published an issue on Christian citizenship and the responsibility of Christians when it comes to voting and things like that. What encouragement do you have for our Southern Baptist and South Carolina Baptist friends out there as they approach the election? Early voting, of course, has already started. I'm voting tomorrow. Lots of us have already voted, but what words of encouragement, using those Reformation principles which have, of course, really shaped our body politic in this country, and what words of wisdom would you have for them?
Speaker 2:And I would say let those continue to shape and, rather than focus on persons, focus on platforms. I think the best way is for a person, for a Christian to approach it is say let me get very clear on my theology and my ethics and then let me look at the platforms that are out there and see which one best suits what I believe about the Christian faith and truth and to vote in accordance with that. But I think for those who just say let's don't vote, you know, let's just stay out of it, I just see it as too similar to what James says, you know, when he sees. You know, if you see people sick and hurting and hungry, just to say to them oh, I'll pray for you, go ahead.
Speaker 2:And people that are not willing to vote, I think are just saying too much of the same thing. Well, it's a spiritual thing, let's pray, let's do this, but there's a call to action. If you can make a change, we're called to do it because we actually do love. It is great that we pray, but it is also great that, where we are given the opportunity that we actually take steps to change things, to make our society a place for human flourishing based on what we see the Bible actually teaching. We have an opportunity and we need to at least say we did our part and we did the best that we could that's right.
Speaker 1:The most fundamental of those, america, the United States of America is voting, and Most fundamental stewardship, and I encourage you to go out and vote. We've taught. I have three of my four children are now Voting. Age one will vote for the first time this year, and she's happy to do that, and the words, the watchwords I've used with them is not personalities but policy, and so I hope they will do that, and I hope you'll do that as well. Well, this has been a great privilege and pleasure to have you with us today, and you will be on here. This is not your last rodeo with us. We hope and we want you back on here Now that you're retired. Especially. You can help us here.
Speaker 1:We have so many things we can talk about, but we appreciate you and your time. I want to encourage our listeners to like or follow, share, leave us a five-star review. Be sure and check out our new website, baptistcouriercom, and our publishing website that you can access from there. We have new books that will be coming out all the time in the months ahead, solid Christian books that we aim to encourage healthy churches and healthy Christians in South Carolina and beyond. So be sure and be on the lookout for those announcements when you see them on social media or at our website.
Speaker 1:Again, that's baptistcouriercom and we have newsletters and things like that. You can subscribe to and be sure, and download this podcast and like it, and we'll be looking for future episodes. We're going to be dealing with books and theology and culture and sometimes sports, and you'll hear Travis and I talk about a lot teasing each other about the Clemson Tigers and the Georgia Bulldogs and a lot of other things that come into that. So we hope you like this new format. Well, thanks again. Happy Reformation Day, dr Johnson, and we'll look forward to seeing you again on here, hopefully in the near future.
Speaker 3:Thank you. We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, South Carolina. As a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob's Lung Audio Productions.
