39. A Guide To Funeral Apprenticeships: How Funeral Apprenticeships Shape Future Professionals

In this episode, we sit down with Matthew Lymn-Rose, Managing Director of A.W Lymn Funeral Directors, to discuss ways of getting started within the funeral profession. Matthew shares his insight, and talks about opportunities for apprenticeships and steps you can take to begin your journey within the industry. 

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Transcript

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Hi, I'm Andy Eeley, Senior Funeral Director for G. Seller Independent Funeral Directors, and we've been serving bereaved families since 1910. I'm sure you're all well aware there's lots of different myths, taboos, and misconceptions around what happens behind the scenes within the funeral profession. So we decided to put together this series of podcasts to answer those questions and hopefully dispel those myths. So please do like, share, and subscribe, and send those questions. Send them to liftingthelid@gseller. co. uk, and we will do our absolute best to answer them for you. It genuinely is our family caring for your family. Welcome to the latest episode of Lifting the Lid. Today, I'm joined by Matthew, Matthew Lymn-Rose of A. W. Lymn. How are you, Matthew? Very well, thank you very much. Thank you very much for being here. Not too strenuous a journey? It's not too far away from us? No, we're almost neighbours, so nice and easy this morning. That's true. Matthew, first and foremost, I'd like to know a little bit about you. Who are you? How did you get into this profession? A bit of your backstory. With pleasure. How long have you got? Go on. Like many funeral directors I think, I am a fifth generation. Fifth generation, okay. The business was founded by my great, great grand father, Arthur William Lymn. He is my father's mother's father's father, hence the double barrel surname. Okay, yeah- He founded the business in 1907. When I was born, my dad and my grandfather and my grandmother were running the business. I've got an aunt who then joined, and I became very aware of funeral service, of the good that I felt our profession did for the general public, and I wanted to know more. I came in on a Saturday morning, I was washing cars, I was cutting the grass, I was doing whatever needed to be done at that stage. I said to my dad when I was doing my GCSEs and thinking about what I would do next, I said, "Well, I'd like to join the business". Dad said, "Well, that's good. You could probably come and mow the grass and wash the cars". I thought, Well, that wasn't really the answer I was expecting. He suggested that maybe I would go and get some more qualifications. So off I went and I did my A-Levels. I enrolled on the National Association of Funeral Directors diploma course. I did a night school and got my diploma whilst I was doing my A-Levels, although I didn't actually get my certificate for another couple of years because the principal of the firm had to sign to say I've worked for two years full-time and that I'd arrange 25 real funerals, which at that stage I hadn't. So getting to the end of my A-Levels, said again to dad, "I'm now a qualified funeral I'd like to join". Again, he said, "well, if you want to come and be a funeral director, that's good. We could do with a funeral director." I was left thinking, well, I thought I would come and do more in this business. I thought I'd come and run this business. So off I went to university, did a business studies degree. I did another night school, this time with the British Institute of Embalmers, qualified as an Embalmer. Then when my contemporaries were talking about careers, I then spoke to my father again. We came up with a plan for me to join the business. I got a little bit of further outside experience. I worked in a firm of accountants in a law firm, but only short term, with a view that I would join the business. That was about 20 years ago. I came in and worked through various different departments. I've worked in every department in our business over those 20 years. About 10 years ago, I was made the Managing Director. Really, I would describe myself first and foremost as a funeral director. I run a business, and our business is a fairly large business. 28, soon to be 29 funeral homes. I was going to say how many homes? Yeah. Somewhere in the region of 3, 000 to 3,500 funerals a year. In total, around about 150 employees, including a monumental masonry business, a floristry business. So lots of things going on. I suppose as the Manager Director of that, you're running a big business. But in my heart, I'm a funeral director. Yeah, which is great to be able to run that business. It's brilliant that you've spoken about your educational piece and coming into the business, the NAFD and so on and so forth, because that's what we want to talk about, apprenticeships and how you come into this as a business. How do you go about finding the right person to work with you? You're the Managing Director. You must have an awfully big pool of people working with you. How do you get the right person? Without exception, every full-time member of staff, I meet and interview before they can work for us. You personally? Me personally. Now, that's not to say that I have got some great recipe for how to find the best staff. But I think culturally, it's important that the staff members understand that me as Managing Director, I am hands-on. I am involved in the people and in the culture, and it matters. My interviewing technique is not out of any textbook. I very much sit with people and say, tell me about you, because it's all about people. The skills, the art of arranging a funeral, pretty much provided you can read and you can write and you've got the right intention; we can teach you how to arrange a funeral. It's getting the right person. We look for background and people, my experience tells me, come to us at two stages of their life. They either come very early on, and normally something's happened, they've been touched by the loss of a loved one, they've been to a funeral, and they come to us fairly early on, and they've got this fire in their belly, this passion to do it. The other people tend to get to some sort of a threshold, a water shed moment in their life where their kids move out or their mortgage is paid, or maybe they've lost their parents and they decide they want to change. And we hear over and over again people saying, I want more. I want to gain something, and I want to feel that I'm giving something. So they're the two sets of people that come to us. And we deal with the two sets of people differently. Okay. So people who come to us at an age where they've already got a lot of life experience, we do a training scheme, which is basically a two-year scheme. You come to us, and everyone comes to head office to begin with, because at our head office, we have our stone masons, our floristry, our big coffee workshop, our big mortuary. You work through all those different departments. And in fact, the first thing you do is you go out on funerals. So a bit of acclimatization, a bit of healthy-safety. See what you do, yep. Correct. Because people may have seen a funeral from the pews, but they've not seen it from our side. So we send them out and we find that people do three or four weeks of that. And some of them on day two want to carry a coffin, want to drive a car, want to go and bring someone into our care from the hospital. They want to do it. Others step back and they observe a bit more. There's no right or wrong. It's just the individuals. But they do that. They then work their way through all the different departments so they understand what happens behind the scenes to make a funeral work before then working in various different funeral homes and eventually ending up their own funeral home after about four months. They then enrol on the the NAFD diploma in Funeral Arranging and Administration. That's the path that they're then on for two years to get a bit of experience and to gain that diploma in Funeral Arranging and Administration. So your scheme that you've put together, is it something that you've put together there as as A.W. Lymn? It's your... your driving force. Absolutely. We've learned, frankly, by getting it wrong. We've learned by getting it wrong. We've employed people in the past. They come, they interview really well, and we put them in an office. They may have fantastic administration skills. They may be wonderful in front of the family, but because they don't understand the mechanics behind the scenes, they can't answer the questions fully. It's tripped us up sometimes. We've had people that haven't had enough knowledge to do the job. We looked then at people like me and my father, my aunt, who have always been in the business, other people that have joined from school and only ever known the funeral profession. They've got that breadth and that depth of knowledge. So we were trying to design a way of giving that to people. So the course is something we came up with, and probably six or seven years ago, we ran that for the first this time, and we took three people on at the same time and did a lot of the training together. And that was quite interesting. But we found that they learned at different paces, and they had different ways of absorbing the knowledge. We then changed the plan and took people on one at a time. It takes about four months to run through, and we try to have someone on the course at all times. Four months to that first piece, given the size of our company, we try and take three people on a year. Even if we don't know what their final job is going to be, we need to have that throughout because there will always be someone who retires, leaves, falls pregnant, whatever whatever. We open a new office. We need that constant stream of new people. It's interesting you say about the final job role there, the scheme. Does it cover all job roles? It sounds like everybody gets to see every little element of- So great question. No, that role is designed for people who are coming to us as a funeral arranger or a funeral director. Now, for a funeral director, typically, they come to us because there is a specific role. They would still do the first four months, but they might be someone who's already qualified, so they do the four months and then go into the business. For an arranger, they do the full two years. Again, unless someone comes as a qualified arranger, and they might do just the four months to begin with. But people don't necessarily know where the job is going to be. But with the number of sites that we have, the number of people that we have, I say there will always be a vacancy that's suitable. Yeah, definitely. Geographically, we're quite tightly knit as well. Actually, if you live in our trading area, it might be a 40-minute commute to the furthest branch, but no more. Who manages the scheme? I mean, Who oversees it? Who develops it? Improves it? Pushes it forward? A lot of that is perhaps done by me, but I'm ably supported by a lot of people. My PA does a lot of the legwork, a lady called Sharon. She does an awful lot of the organising, of getting the information from people. We have a quality, an assurance manager. He does all the inductions now. Another thing that we've learned, we used to rely on heads of department, senior funeral directors to deal with inductions. But we found, actually, they were very good at explaining their role. But things like health and safety, things like going through contracts of employment, they weren't so good at. We've actually employed, he's not quite full-time, he's four days a week, but a quality and assurance manager. Whenever a new person comes, their first full day is spent with him, learning a bit about the culture, a bit about the business. I would love to do that myself. But with all new starters and everyone who comes for work experience, it would literally mean that every Monday, all I would do would be talk to new people and prospective people. Actually, work experience, whilst I mention it, is another great tool. We've brought many people through our business, some of them at school age, some of them post-school, and they come for a week's work experience. Do you get much interest in that? A massive amount. Really? A massive amount. I can think of two fairly recent colleagues who have joined us who took a week off. One girl, she worked at Go Outdoors. Always wanted to go in funerals, into funerals. She took a week's holiday. She's from Derby, booked an Airbnb in Nottingham, and came and did work experience. I sat with her at the end and said,"You've done yourself a massive favour this week. Everyone likes you. You've been positive, you've been proactive. You must, if you've enjoyed it, write to me, send me a CV and tell me that you're interested in a job. The next time there's a vacancy on our course, you will be right at the front of the field". Sure enough, the next vacancy, she applied, she got the job, and she's now a qualified DIPFAA running one of our branches. Brilliant. As a whole, the scheme, it sounds like it's going well. Is it, as an overall? It is. That part of the scheme feels to be very positive and very successful. However, we also run a scheme for school leavers. That was something that was started by my father, 25 maybe years ago. We were looking at people who had perhaps done their A-Levels or finished College, didn't feel that three years at university was right for them, but wanted to be in funeral service. The first person that came through that role is a colleague, and I would call him a good friend of mine who works for us, a gentleman called Jonathan. He did his A-Levels, did very well at his A-Levels, but he knew he wanted to be a funeral director. The idea was that these people would spend four years with us, and at the end of four years, they would have a first aid certificate. They would be a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists. They would be a qualified Memorial Mason. They would be a fully qualified funeral director. In those days, it's just a DIPFD. And there would be a qualified embalmer. Over the course of four years, we would provide them accommodation and we would train them in every aspect. Okay. It's a big investment. It is. There was no promise of a job at the end of it. But in all honesty, everyone who got to the end of it, we've offered a job. I was going to ask that. The success rate of going through it- Probably 50% of the people that have gone through it have remained working for us. But for example, one person was from Bolton. We didn't actually expect that she would stay. She did very well. She gained her diploma, got the Scales Award, so now the High Achievers Award, and then immediately left. She didn't finish her embalming. The truth is, she didn't want to be an embalmer. We learned that, and we find that actually quite a few people that want to be funeral directors don't want to be embalmers. We changed the course, and the embalming now comes before the funeral directing. We've had two people in succession, actually, who got to their stint in the mortuary, and at that stage, a vacancy came up in the mortuary, and they applied for it. We had to make a decision then as to whether we would encourage them to finish their course and recruit someone else or put someone that we already knew into the position. On both occasions, those people went into the position, into the mortuary. Jonathan, the first person, is now one of our senior funeral directors, so one of the most senior staff in our team. One of the people who went all the way through became a funeral director and is now a celebrant working for us. Okay. One's a celebrant. One runs our second busiest office. So there have been some great success stories. I really like the fact that everyone seems to... You see everything that's going on. All facets of that. I think it really helps because you understand when you ring the coffin workshop up and say, "The plate is wrong. I need a new plate". They say, "But I've done the plate that you asked for.""Oh, well, I'm sorry, I got it wrong." You actually understand the pressure that they're not sat waiting for you to ring to do you a new plate, and they'll do it because it's important. But you understand that they've got all the other clients to serve, and you can see the pressure that you're under. You can see how a badly filled out piece of paperwork or a shortcut in the way we do something; has an impact. That education piece has certainly made the people that have come out the other end, the products of our training course, some of the best staff that we've got. We'd like to just pause and take a moment to mention our partner for this podcast, Obitus. Obitus take a customer-first approach and are dedicated to giving families more ways to say goodbye. By working closely with venues and funeral directors like myself across the UK, Obitus ensures that the funeral service is personalised and reflects the life lived, from high-quality music and on-screen tributes to seamless streaming and keepsakes to cherish forever. Obitus adds a personal touch, giving families the freedom to honour their loved ones in their own unique way. You can find out more at www. obitus. com/ltl. Let's say I want to come onto this apprenticeship. I've got no qualifications. What do I need to come onto it? We have an almost never-ending stream of emails that arrive in careers@lymn. co. uk. Do I need any previous qualifications? GCSE, I don't know, A-Levels? You don't need anything. Okay. You need... So everyone sends an email, and some of them are one line, I've always wanted to work in funerals. Yeah, okay. And careers@lymn goes to my PA, and she replies and says, "Please send a CV and a covering letter telling me why you want to do this." Immediately, 50% of people don't reply. Okay. So 50% just don't reply. The other 50% send you a nice CV and write a letter that's bespoke. That letter is the most important thing. The CV is important, but the letter is. What words will you put on that piece of paper to tell us why you've approached us? Why does it matter? Why funerals, specifically? One page of A4 is all we need, but that really helps us. Then Sharon replies to everyone and copies me in and says, Thanks for this. It'll be on file. If a suitable vacancy comes up, we'll be in touch. I see them all I read all those letters. I don't always read the CVs, but I read every letter. If they don't light any fire in me, Sharon files them. If I look at them and think, that story is impressive, that person really means this, I will then say, we need to see them. Even if we haven't got a specific role, again, because of the size of the business, we're fortunate, we need to see that person. Then we'll have an interview, which will be an hour, a cup of coffee, and a chance for me to meet them. I generally find that I'm interviewing people before I know what the role is. Then having talked to them, we say, well, actually, this is a good person. Have we got a role? Yes or no. Have we got a vacancy coming up on the apprenticeship training course? Yes or no. Then we offer them something. It's almost back to front. People are applying for a job that- They don't really know what it- Yeah, that doesn't exist. Let's say I'm successful. I've had my interview. I'm here, I'm on board. How do you mentor me? How does it work? Is it one person that guides me through everything or do I have different specialist areas? It's different people as you're working through. That is something that maybe we could improve on. Our quality and assurance manager, he's the first person that you meet. We often say this, he's the person in our business with the most time. It's a new role, and his role is to give people time. So quite important that he can do that. The first day, they spend all that day with him, get to know him, know where his office is, know that they can talk to him. He checks in with people all the way through that first stint when they're at head office. So whichever department they're in, he's seeing them. Everyone has a checklist for each department that the department manager knows they're working to. So they know what their goals and objectives are. You've got specific guidance for each Department from the Department head. Then you've got overall mentoring from the quality and assurance manager. If we know where the role will end up at that stage, and often we've decided where the person is going to be for their training, even if it's not permanent, the senior funeral director who covers that area will also come on day one and have lunch with them. So they'll meet that person on day one. Important that they know who those people are and that they're then constantly checking in. So you're learning the trade, the nuts and bolts from the individual managers. But then one of the senior funeral directors and this quality assurance manager are actually overseeing your progress all the way through. And generally, every two or three weeks on a Friday afternoon at half past 4:00, You'll come and sit in my office and have a cup of coffee with me and tell me what's happening. Tell me what's good, tell me what's bad. It's a bit of a reflective log so you can improve, or I can improve if I'm on this course. Exactly. So what's been good? What's been bad? Where have you been welcomed? Have you felt utilised enough? Have you felt at some stage like a spare part? What could we do better? And we take that on board. You take that on board? We do. Brilliant. It sounds like a fantastic scheme. But let's say I want to be involved in this, but I live, I don't know, in St. Ives, down on the South Coast. What options have I got if I don't want to relocate? In terms of the funeral arranging qualification, the two years- So it's a certificate now, the FAA. This is a certificate, exactly. The Cert FAA. The people that are coming to do that, that only works if you live in Nottingham and want to work in Nottingham, frankly. The apprenticeship, which is generally at post A-level age, we used to, so not at the start, but we quickly got to a stage where we set up a four individual bedroom complex at head office with a communal lounge, communal kitchen, where everyone could live together. We found that didn't work. So we've now gone back to people living at home. But anyone from a distance, we've got access to residential apartments, flats, near to our main office. Again, part of our business, we have a fair property portfolio, and we've deliberately got some one and two bedroom flats near to the main office. So if you're in St. Ives, we would talk to you about accommodation and a preferential rate. Because, again, being completely open book and honest, the apprenticeship scheme is minimum wage. We pay absolute minimum wage. We pay for all the training qualification. We do get some utilisation from people. As they get towards the middle and the end of each section of their training, they're competent. They are working for us. In some ways, we're getting them at a cut price. But then when they go and start the next department, they add much less value at the start of that. And we're giving the training, the mentoring, and everything else along the way. You're obviously a well-established funeral director, business and funeral director in your own right. What are your thoughts of some other funeral directors? Do you think they should offer apprenticeships, a similar sort of scheme, perhaps? I do understand that it's difficult if you're not of the size that we are. It makes it easy because of the turnover. I remember having the conversation when we'd got 120 staff with someone. If there's 12 months in a year, and if every one stays for 10 years, and every month, you will still have someone leave. Every month, there's someone leaving. So we've got that turnover. So it does make it easier. What I think people in the funeral service should do is that they should embrace people that have the passion because whenever you talk to someone in funerals, they believe in it. It's a vocation. When someone knocks on your door and says,"this is what I really want to do", you should try and help them. That might not mean giving them a job because you might not be able to. But if you can put them in touch with someone else, if you can, you know give them our number, if you can think of who the local firm is that can help, you should do that. We're against the backdrop at the minute of potential regulation of some bad stories of malpractice in the funeral profession. And by having people that are qualified and that are experienced, that makes us better, makes us all better as a profession. Because actually the reality is Sellers and Lymns are not directly in competition. There are a few families sometimes that we may be competing, but we're not directly in competition. And we ideas share. We talk. If Joseph has a problem with something, he picks the phone up to me. If I want advice on something, I pop him an email. We talk and we're open because we both believe in the same end goal. Absolutely. We want the best for the bereave that we serve. The principles are there. Absolutely. Just one final question. I'm back to being... I'm not in the funeral profession at all. What's your advice? What's the first thing I need to do to come into it or attempt to go into it? The The NAFD do a very basic course where you can go and get some understanding of funerals. Actually, I think people should do that. It's a cheap and easy way to just get some sort of experience. Because I think it's really important to understand everything that takes- a funeral director is not just the person with the top hat. That overview that the NAFD offers is valuable. It's not a 9 to 5 job. There are lots of aspects to it that we all have to get involved in. We all want to do because we want to serve the clients. I think that's really helpful. You need to go and put yourself out there because it isn't a profession with an awful lot of job opportunities. I think people tend to come and either go very quickly or stay forever. Yeah, that's exactly right. Opportunities don't come up that often and you need to put yourself forward. Like any job application, you need to sell yourself. For us, people that come to us and put that letter together that shows why they believe in it, not just because they got this A-level or they've done that bit of training, but because something inside them has said, 'this is what I want to do'. Trying to express that when we all get so many emails and so many letters, you've got to make yourself stand out from the crowd. We see those regularly, and you see the very bad, the very poor, the number of people that don't reply when they're pushed and you say,'please send me some information'. But we also see the very good, and there are some great people out there. Brilliant. Matthew, thank you so much for your time. It's a pleasure. That's absolutely brilliant. If you do have any questions, you want to know more, please like, share, subscribe, send the questions, send them to liftingthelid@gseller. co. uk. We'll do our absolute best to answer them for you. And of course, we'll see you next time.