When "More" Isn't Better: Right-Sizing Your Business for Well-Being

Joy Cho, renowned entrepreneur and founder of Oh Joy, a lifestyle brand known for licensed products, home decor, fashion, and children's books, shares her journey to success. Joy was named one of Time’s 30 Most Influential People on the Internet for two years in a row, and has THE MOST followed account on Pinterest with over 15 million followers. She attributes her achievements to creativity, social media marketing skills, and the courage to pitch her ideas. Despite working long hours to grow her business, Joy realized she was sacrificing family time and her well-being. Scaling back her company allowed her to focus on fulfilling aspects like designing products and writing children's books. Joy's story inspires women and mothers to define achievement on their own terms and find balance in their lives.

About Joy:

Founder and Creative Director, Joy Cho, has authored seven books and consulted for hundreds of creative businesses around the world. Joy has given keynote speeches on entrepreneurship, leadership, and business at many conferences and companies including Alt Summit, Pinterest HQ, Target HQ, and Hallmark HQ. For two years in a row, Joy was named one of Time’s 30 Most Influential People on the Internet and has the most followed account on Pinterest with over 15 million followers. Most recently, Joy’s house and studio have been featured in House Beautiful, Parents, and Domino Magazines.

Joy is in a unique position of having been the influencer, designer, and/or brand of both licensed designer collections and social media partnerships. She is currently offering consulting to a select number of brands who seek her expertise in growing their licensing program and connecting with artists and designers to work with, as well as those brands seeking unique ways to work with influencers.

Connect with Joy:

Web https://ohjoy.com/

Pinterest: https://pinterest.com/ohjoy/

Instagram https://instagram.com/ohjoy

Instagram https://instagram.com/ohjoyco

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ohjoystudio

Loved this episode?
Leave us a review and rating here:
She's Brave Podcast on Apple Podcasts

Connect with Kristina:
She's Brave Podcast Website
Instagram
Facebook

Curious about podcasting?
Join Podcast Mastery Facebook Group

Transcript

Kristina: 0:05

Hey everyone, it's Christina Driscoll host of this she's brave Podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me.

Unknown: 0:13

I did not start out brave at all. But I learned that we can do brave things, one small step at a time. After caregiving for my husband and son for 12 years, it was definitely time for my next chapter. I wanted to get brave women's voices out there in the world. And more importantly, I want all of you to have the courage and the resilience to live your best authentic life. So come along with me and learn how to live your best life. And I want you to hear the brave voices of women all around the world.

Kristina: 1:07

Hey, everyone, it's Christina with the she's brave podcast. I am so excited about today's guest Joy show. She's the founder and creative director of Oh joy, a lifestyle brand that creates a wide range of licensed products, including home decor, kids, pets, fashion tech, and furniture collections with brands such as Target Petco, Band Aid, kids, K, suffi, and more. Wow, while you guys we've been talking before we hit record and this is going to be a dynamite conversation. Joy is super, super successful, but she has consciously chosen to scale back her life. For two years in a row, joi was named one of times 30 most influential people on the internet, and has the most followed account on Pinterest with over 15 million followers. And oh my gosh, you guys, you cannot you cannot stop listening now, because this is we've already been discussing stuff about being a mom and mom guilt. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about career change. We're going to talk about work life balance. We're going to talk about collaboration, mom guilt. Welcome. Welcome, Joy.

Unknown: 2:22

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Kristina: 2:24

Yeah, I'm so glad you're here. Now I was going to have you kind of carve out a lot about how you created your company. But I want to do a really cliffnotes version of it. Because I'm so excited about what happened after you attained success. So tell us a little bit about building your business. But then let's get to that. All right, well,

Unknown: 2:51

I started as a graphic designer, I went to school for it, I started my business Oh joy, as first a blog in 2005. And so it wasn't really a business, it was just a side hobby. While I was looking for a new job, I started freelance graphic designing, and sort of Oh, joy turned into this mix of a design company where I was designing logos and branding and websites for different companies. And then on the side, I was also doing this blog. Now again, I had already had some work experience working for other companies. So this is my first time starting my own thing. I had no idea what I was doing. But I just took a leap because I was in a new city trying to find something else. In the meantime, I started this blog and freelancing. And so really, that was the beginning of it. That was the beginning of it. Because while I did not intend to have my own company, it sort of happened in the meantime, between jobs. I love it. The Blog World which was early, early social media days really helped to become a marketing tool for my design company. So I was getting clients to people who were following me there who wanted to see my inspirations. And they would hire me to design their logo or their website. And over the years really oh boy was that and then maybe five years in where the site itself people started paying for banner ads, people started doing sponsored posts, that oh joy of the brand on its own, started growing, I was able to do less client work, and expand Oh, joy as a lifestyle brand. Now that really gave me a lot of opportunities to do more things other than typical graphic designer stuff, which is what I thought I was going to do. It allowed me to be able to start writing books. It allowed me to do social media content, I started doing DIY, I started pitching product lines to other companies. One of my biggest collections was a three year line at Target, which was one of my biggest dreams come true. And I know I'm giving me such a short version. But really the whole thing is that once you start something and opportunities start to come to you or you see that you're reaching people in a new way, especially back then like we didn't know All what social media was, you have to keep going with it, like ride the ebb and flow of that wave and take advantage of it because certain things and certain opportunities are not always going to be there. And one thing that I did a lot from the very beginning, the day that I graduated from college up till today is I also pitched a lot of, if I want to work with target, if I wanted to work with kids, if I wanted to work with a certain brand, to do a licensed product collection, or if I wanted to get a book deal, or if I wanted to work with someone for social media, if they weren't coming to me, which most of them were not, I was going to them I was pitching I was going after it, I was finding out who I could contact, love it airing what I could do in hopes in the small, small percentage of responses, somebody was interested. So that's one thing I can say like, absolute without a doubt, some of my best projects, best things I've done in my career, I went after, I didn't wait for someone to come to me.

Kristina: 5:56

I love that advice so much. And I also love what you said earlier about, I had no idea what I was doing. And I just I love that so much because nobody does no body dies, like somehow, I'm 55. And I was a caregiver to my husband and small son and my husband had early onset Alzheimer's. And this is a whole new chapter for me. And that's my whole message. If I can do it, you can do it. I think they used to have this myth of, oh, well, I have to have certain things figured out before I start my podcast or before I write that book, or before I do this or that. And I love how you just threw that in there, you were like I had no idea what I was doing. I just just went ahead and did it. And I love that so much. But what intrigues me the most about your story we were talking about before we hit record, and I want to talk about that. So so much because you were just going bananas with your company, it was obviously incredibly successful. And you came to a crossroads where you could have just done a number of things like you could have sold your business and completely gotten out. You could have continued at the frantic pace growing. Tell us more about that. Because I want everybody to hear this story.

Unknown: 7:12

So there was a phase where we had a target collection for a few years and it was post that time, I would say 2017 to 2019 where after that ended, which was a very big contract for us, I really was hustling, I was like what can fill the void of this big target contract. And we were doing a lot of different things. We were doing social media content, we were doing product collaborations. I was just starting to write kids books. I had been writing books for a little bit. But I had a team, there were seven of us, we had this amazing studio, it was just sort of a dream come true situation where you walk in and you're thinking, wow, my dreams have come true. And I thought I was happy. And I was mostly happy. And our team was great. And everybody had their place. And everyone was doing such a great job. Or what I realized after a couple years of this pace, as with young kids, was that I was working all day in my office, I was sometimes able to pick up my kids, sometimes I walked in or sometimes we'd rely on childcare or somebody else. And then I would come home, have family time put the kids to bed and I was working again from seven till 11 at night. And I did this every night for years. And I was doing it because we were always a small business. Even though we were successful, I had to hustle for that money to come in. And I realized that I was working really, really, really hard to pay everybody's paychecks, which is what you need to do when you have a team. But I was not getting to go to all of my kids events, I was not getting to do certain things that I wanted to do. And I was making compromises in that part. And I think I just got to a point where I realized like, I am working super hard to make everybody else happy. And I realized that I wasn't happy. And it was a really tough decision to make. And it's taken me years even after the fact to even absorb it because my team was so great. So it was nothing personal. But in early 2020. Before we knew about COVID This was like February 2020, I had decided to let go of most of my team minus one person. And it was really sad. And there was a lot of tears shed and it was very bittersweet. But I got to the point where I needed to do that for my mental health and for me to feel like I could manage what I needed to do and manage the amount of work I needed to bring in. So that's how it was we kind of scaled back from seven to two people in early 2028 COVID happened, that was crazy, obviously. And just in the last six months, I've now scaled down to just me again. Now one thing you may say is how can one person do the work of seven people? Well, you can't. But what I had realized over time is just like how I grew my business by adding things and seeing where things went and going with the climate and the times and the trends and all of that. I also saw that I could do that in reverse. I can't do the work of seven people But I know what I'm capable of. And I basically over time, focus on the work that I love the most, we all have parts of our job that we don't love, there's always going to be things that our least favorite. And that's not to say that I can spend my days doing everything that's 100%. Perfect. I love it everything? Of course not. But there were parts of the business that maybe weren't my favorites, or weren't bringing in as much money. And I really have been focusing on the combination of what do I love doing now 20 plus years later, after starting my career, where do my passions lie, and also what's going to be profitable within those things, and where do those two circles overlap on the Venn diagram, and that's really been my focus over the last couple of years. And it allows me to then make the money that I need to contribute to my family, the money that I want to make, I don't need to make hundreds of millions of dollars, I need to make enough to be happy, I need to make enough to feel like whatever it makes sense to me to feel like I'm contributing. And also I need to just feel like I have time to be able to be there for my children. They're nine and 12 right now, and they're not getting any younger, they it just goes by so fast, as you know, and I really wanted to have a better balance, which I wasn't doing. And I didn't realize it until that moment. And

Kristina: 11:12

I just want to say to you, wow, I just commend you on your huge amount of courage to go against the grain of society, because everything on social media basically tells us that in order to be happy and successful, we need the millions of dollars, we need the big house and all of that stuff. And yet you had the courage to figure out that that wasn't making you happy, and you didn't care what other people thought. And you started scaling back. And I also liked that you said, it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't like, oh, I quit like, add enough of this nonsense. You said it took us several years to kind of build this new life that works for you. And you're so right, like, my son is in college now. And it just it does go by in the blink of an eye. And I think as moms we really struggle with that whole thing. Where do I put my time and in my case, I did choose to say I'm going to take care of my son, I'm going to manage my investments because I was in the finance field. So like, I'm going to do that and take care of my son and take care of my husband until he passed away. And and I didn't care what the world thought either. I was like you and now I'm in a different phase. Now I'm ramping up again at 55. But I'm finding two, I want to ask you about this because now you're a one man, team, one woman I should say. And I find I'm still struggling with burnout. And I don't know how to prevent it. Like every so often my brain starts getting numb. And it's tough. And I feel like just the shorter amount that I've been talking to you today like you've kind of given me a new way of looking at work as a mom, like, what are my goals? Like, how much money do I need to be making? I'm actually a pretty simple person. I don't need a ton of money to be happy. Yeah.

Unknown: 13:18

Well, one thing I should say real quick is that in terms of being a one woman show now, although I don't have an in house team, I still have my agents, my accountants, my lawyers, there are people okay, yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, that myself. Yeah. In terms of burnout, I think as we get older, we become more confident who we are, we become more confident what we need. And so I think that the hustle culture, especially when you're a business owner, is very real. When you're younger, in your 20s and 30s. Before you have as many responsibilities. And when you're just in that mode. I mean, I wouldn't change the way that I work for anything, because I learned from it. And I needed to do that, in that phase of my life that I love that. And I think it's just the idea of I remember back when I was hustling so much and I would see other founders taking Friday's off or not being in the office. And this is before hybrid work or hybrid life, though everybody's more used to No, but I would be like how are they doing now? Like their employees are in the office? How can they not be there? And that's because I had set an expectation of how I thought I needed to be a leader. They were choosing to do it a different way. Not that one was right or wrong. But what I also realized is they had just wisdom and experience above me that I did not have that I know oh what my mental health and my personal time and the ability to be able to if I want to work out before I start my day or something like that what is going to feed the other parts of me that aren't just the boss, the hustle the Go, go go that make money part. And so for me now, based the way that my schedule is, I mean every day is different. I have notice thing, but I carve time out to play tennis, which is like one of my big side hobbies, I make sure that if I want to meet up with a friend every so often or a colleague or old coworker, I can do that. And then I work around it, I set my schedule, I make sure I get blocks of time. Sometimes I work at nighttime now. Yeah, because what my kids are older, or they're in bed, and I can do that, but I'm not grinding the way that I used to. And I realized that what I need to do to feel successful in this phase of my life, and again, there's ups and downs, there are some days and weeks and months, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, things feel slow, or what's happening? Or have I lost it? Does nobody care? Does anybody care what I'm doing anymore. And I think that's totally normal. Because it is ebbs and flows. And also, as things change with the economy. And as you do your same job longer and longer. Sometimes you get burnt out. And sometimes you want to change. And so to me, it's what can keep making your job exciting. What can you do to keep making your job, exciting weather. I love

Kristina: 16:00

that. I love that. That's great, too, because a lot of what I've been talking about is career change. But I love this angle. Because, like in so many jobs, including what you do and what I do. Yeah, you can completely change things around about how you do them. And when and even what you're doing in your within the job that you're in, you don't necessarily have to like, make this drastic change. I love that. Yeah, yeah. And you

Unknown: 16:32

can do it gradually over time. I think working for somebody else is obviously different than working for yourself. But there is the ability to say, stop in the moment and say, what is it that I'm doing right now that I really love? What am I doing right now that I really hate? And are there ways to increase the scale of that so that the love is higher than the hate or the dislike. And I think we should assess that every year. Because we have more control than we think even if you are working for another company and you are not the boss, there are still multiple things that you're doing within your job. And maybe there are ways that you can slide a little bit more into the parts of your job you really love and figure out how you can really shine there.

Kristina: 17:17

I love it. And guess what? I like the idea of applying it to our personal life to what are the things that I love in my personal life? What are the things that I hate? Can I scale back on the things that I don't like? Can I add more of the things I'm sure even like, again, we may not be drastic measures, it might be just little tiny, small changes and gradually over time. But that's just like a beautiful, beautiful concept right there. Or

Unknown: 17:44

it's about getting help. We can't always ignore the things that we don't like to do. But is it also Oh, this is where I need help. I need childcare, I need my partner to step in and do this part. Or I need to hire an assistant for my job, whatever that might be. It could also just be assessing where you need help in those areas,

Kristina: 18:00

or even just asking for help. Because as women like I think that was one of my biggest hang ups for a long, long time was I don't know why but I just felt like I have to be independent. Like I didn't like asking for help. And I'm getting better at asking for help.

Unknown: 18:17

Yes, I agree. That is something that we all need to work on is the number one thing that I always tell people when I'm doing one on one coaching is realizing how many women, especially when they become business owners don't want to ask for help. They want to just feel like they can do it themselves. And when we can break down and be vulnerable and realize we need help from other people, we are able to grow so much more.

Kristina: 18:42

Yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. And on that same vein of asking for help. I know that you are a really powerful collaborator. So tell us more about that in you. That's just such a key.

Unknown: 18:57

Well, the collaboration part of me is probably what you're referring to is the licensing the licensing collaborations. So I have done a lot of collections with other brands love it. Oh, joy for target, Oh, joy for calapan Oh, joy for kids, lots of different categories. And what I realized in my earlier days as a graphic designer, when I was wanting to transition from designing corporate things, to designing products, is that I did not have the funds to be able to manufacture a product line that I would love to have my name on. And I tried I did do a stationary line for two years, which paper is probably the cheapest item that you could pay for of any any product. And so I invested a little bit of what I had, which was nothing into it and creating it and learn how does it work to have your own how to your own product line, how does that work to get into stores? How does that work to go to trade shows? And I realized that I didn't want to have to do that every single time I wanted to have a new product so I started I'm really learning about licensing. And that's the way that I've approached having product collections since then. And the great thing is the way that you work with each brand is so different. Sometimes I do all the design, I create all the files, and sometimes I'm really giving my ideas and I'm letting their team work with some, and then I'm taking the files back and working with it. And so it really changes depending on who I'm working with.

Kristina: 20:23

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So, so much. And by the way, some of your products like your cell phone covers, I absolutely love them, you guys, you should check them out. We'll have everything in the show notes, how to connect with Joyce products and everything. But I also love your collection of children's books. And one of them's called a kid's book about confidence, and other one's called your Okay, one is called Be curious. And then the other ones Oh, so kind and I'm like, wow, my son is in college. But if he were a little guy, this is so beautiful. How did that all come about? Well,

Unknown: 21:08

I started writing books in about 2010. I started with a couple of business books. One was about freelancing while was about blogging, and then we did a DIY book. After that, and odoi DIY book, the kids books have been the newer part of my author, writer life. I mean, I think that when you are self employed, and you have your own business, a lot of times your inspiration comes from what's happening in your life. So by that point, I had young kids, I was obviously reading books them all the time. And it was sort of like well, what message would I want to bring to love it children, and the storybooks, the ones that are for little kids ages zero to four, we started with be curious, which is about curiosity, and it goes into colors and adventure. And then we went into your Okay, which is about feelings and emotions and how to handle that. And then oh, so kind, those three are part of sort of a series about kindness and how you treat people in your life. They're all animals as characters. And so it's just a thing where kids can just see that and it relates to their real life stories, while also getting to see these cute animals. And then the most recent one, a kid's book about confidence, that's for slightly older kids ages five to 10, where you're really starting to know about your confidence or lack thereof. And the age in which kids start to compare themselves to others, they start to feel like they're lacking in certain areas, and really talking through that feeling and that emotion and how it's not something that gets cured or fixed right away. And it's something that we work on all the time that even grownups work on. So, for me, when I'm approaching kids books, it's really about what's the message I want to get across? What do I feel like kids need? What are they struggling with? What are their parents struggling with? And that's how I approached the topics that I want to write about. And I'm working currently on my eighth book pitch, that hopefully becomes a book but it continues along those lines. Okay, I

Kristina: 23:00

have a couple of questions. I want to ask you about pitching like, like, what would go through your head and how you had the courage to do that. But actually, yeah, let's just go there. Let's just go there right now. Yeah. Yeah,

Unknown: 23:12

that sounds really scary to me. Honestly, pitching is is an interesting thing. Because it really is the term pitching. A lot of times people think about like ad agency style, where multiple companies are showing their idea for an ad campaign and you're fully realizing it and someone's gonna get the job and they're just gonna go and execute it. That's not what we're talking about mine. My strategy is relatively cold pitching cold meeting, you don't have a connection. And you are going after brands, companies, people you want to work for now this can apply to getting a job for a company this can apply to anyone Yeah, that's true. Have your product in a store it can apply to you wanting to get a book deal it could apply to wanting to get a licensing deal is basically the idea that you cannot sit around and wait for people to come to you now. Yes, if you have established yourself if you have a good social media following people think oh, I have to grow those and then these brands will come to me. You know what, maybe that will help but you should not wait for those things to happen to

Kristina: 24:16

die love it. You should not wait for those social media accounts to get big.

Unknown: 24:20

I love that so much. You can't wait and I have so many of my odoi Academy students come to me and say I love to do this, but I feel like I'm so small and I'm a nobody. They don't know me. It doesn't matter. I have been to companies that I've wanted to pitch to. And I've heard them say we really want to work with people who are brand new who haven't been discovered yet. Who haven't done a lot of licensing collections we want to discover somebody brand new and all that so you have to remember that everybody's looking for something different. If you're trying to get a job for a company, but the you don't see a job listing or you don't know recruiter Oh yeah, well go after it. That's how I got my first two jobs out of school as I sent them stuff, I sent them a small version of my portfolio, sent them a cute package made sure that the packaging and the envelope was really cool. And it got their attention. And it's the same thing these days, even though now a lot of people are emailing pitches, you put together a PDF that shows who you are given an example of your work, and you're not doing any work for free for them, but you are showing what you can do. You are making sure they know what it is that you are asking, and what are you you're presenting it. And that's your way of putting your best possible chance out there. Now, is 100% of those things going to work out? No, are 50% of those things gonna work out? Probably not, it's probably going to be a really small percentage. But that really small percentage is way better than if you didn't do anything at all. And you've just waited.

Kristina: 25:52

I love that answer so much. Wow. Okay, so going back to I just love this whole concept of how you switched gears like what? What would you say to that listener out there, that listener out there of mine, who's saying to herself, oh, my gosh, that's me right now. Like I'm going 100 miles an hour, I'm making a lot of money. And I do want to scale back. But like, I'm kind of scared to do it. And maybe because they're afraid again, what other people think, or whatever? And or, like what advice would you give that person who's who's kind of thinking in those ways.

Unknown: 26:28

I think it comes down to you really connecting with your own self and deciding what it is you want. Because I'll tell you what happened for me is I was actually on another podcast around a time before I made this decision. And the podcast was very geared towards founders who take investment and grow and sell their businesses. And that was not the path that I was on. And one of the people had sent to me, he was like, joy, you could be so much bigger, you could be so much bigger, if you just took like $5 million in investment. He's like, I don't understand why you're not doing that. And I felt very attacked, it was very uncomfortable for me, I felt attacked. And maybe it also fed into my insecurity of what I thought success and growth was. And so I left it feeling kind of like not great about myself, and thinking, Am I thinking too small? Am I being too small? Should I be looking for investor should I be doing that whole thing. And then I came to the place of no, I just that's not what I wanted for my business and the type of business that I have. And that I had. And that's the thing is if you can get through the noise of what other people think you should do, and you can really think about what you want to do, then that's the best place to be because it could be the opposite. It could be that you're doing really well staying small, but you really think that you could grow this thing, if you got some investment, some outside investment, and it could become a huge thing. Go with that. I think there's no right way to be successful, it's really out there. Honestly, if you're happy to me, it's not if you're happy, and you have accomplished the goal that you set out to and that goal also can keep changing as well.

Kristina: 28:16

Ah, so, so good. And yeah, I love what you said, we're all in different places. So some of us are in that like growth mode and hiring employees. And there's that's fine, too. But I just love your story, because it's just about you being authentically true to yourself. And that is such an incredible example, to women out there listening today. So with that being said, Are there any last words of advice that you have? For my listeners?

Unknown: 28:45

I think one thing that I learned is that, you know, it's sort of some things that we talked about earlier is that you don't have to 100% know what you're doing. You have to just go for it. Obviously you need to know enough to feel to feel it. So take classes, ask people take advantage of other people's expertise. And I think that that's one thing that people don't do, because either you feel like I have to be a total expert at this. Or you say, Oh, I don't know anything. Well, most of you are somewhere in between maybe a little bit of not But enough about it but you feel like you don't know quite enough to go take that next step. There's a million classes these days, places like Skillshare there's people who do business coaching like me, there's podcasts like yours, like listen, learn, read, absorb, ask questions, reach out to people who have done it and just find out more information to give you that confidence because to me, I've talked about confidence and how important is to me clearly with these books that I've written. But confidence is based on knowledge. It's based on when you know how to do something, or that you can learn to do that thing. You will then be more confident to go after it. So don't be afraid to ask and to learn to get the knowledge that you need to go off And do that thing you want to do.

Kristina: 30:02

Oh my gosh, I cannot believe how much I feel like I have learned I've been frickin sitting here taking notes too. I've been listening even though I've been looking down some of the time. I'm like, taking my notes. Okay, so where can we find you? We'll put everything in the show notes too. But what are the best places to find you? If people want to connect with you? You can

Unknown: 30:25

find me at Oh joy.com and on Instagram and Pinterest. At Oh, joy. Oh, HJ. Oh, ye. Oh,

Kristina: 30:33

beautiful. Thank you so much joy, for coming on my podcast today. Everything you say your advice. It's making a huge difference, especially for women in the world.

Unknown: 30:47

Thank you. I appreciate that. Also, you do not look 55 at all when you said that. I was a college age kid. I was like, okay, the math. The math works. I

Kristina: 30:58

have a great girl. I got a little bit of a screen on too. But like, honestly, that's part of my message is like I just don't give me that excuse that it's too late. I even have like a what do you call it a real so this is how little I know, I still am learning about social media. I have a real on Instagram where I just started doing reels like a month ago. And I was like, the reels are so much fun. And then but like I was talking about you do you think you feel like you missed the boat? And I'm like, Listen, guys, like I started at age 54. And I'm crushing it. And don't give me that excuse about your age do you?

Unknown: 31:40

pieces like 30s is you know me like I agree

Kristina: 31:43

50s or the new 30s I think I really women. Like all the women that a lot of my friends that are my age, we are all going through like a transformation basically like okay, this is the next phase like what do I want what's gonna make me happy and we don't care as much anymore what people think, like bulldoze through and try something new and, and that's kind of an yet another message. Like I want to be that living example of like, just just do it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, this has been nothing short of amazing. i Wow. I am just blown away by this whole conversation. Thank you so much joy for taking the time out of your life because you're a mom with your kids and you've got your business and everything and thank you for being here.

Unknown: 32:30

Thank you so much for having me.

Kristina: 32:36

Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy life to listen to today's episode. I love learning about what makes you brave. I'm here with you. I see you. I hear you and I want to hear from you. I want to know how you're showing up as being brave and authentic. Connect with me on Instagram at she's brave podcast or come join our community in the she's brave podcast Facebook group. I'm sending you so much love. Until next time. Keep being brave.