79 - Mastering Tough Conversations and Accountability in Your Small Business

In this insightful episode, Steve and Christeen return to the recording studio after a brief hiatus, inspired by their recent leadership training they delivered to a client. They delve into the art of handling difficult conversations, a skill that's essential in both personal and professional settings. Drawing from their leadership training with a client, they emphasize the importance of addressing tough conversations head-on, rather than avoiding them. This episode offers practical guidance on creating safe and supportive environments for these discussions, ensuring that both parties can achieve a win-win outcome. 

Listeners will learn about the common reasons people avoid difficult conversations, such as fear of conflict and lack of communication skills. Steve and Christeen discuss the significance of having clear roles, expectations, and consistent follow-up to foster accountability. Additionally, they explore the benefits of using "I statements," active listening, and focusing on solutions to make these conversations more effective. By sharing personal experiences and practical tips, Steve and Christeen aim to equip their audience with the tools needed to approach tough conversations with confidence and empathy, ultimately enhancing team dynamics and workplace culture. 

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The Green Profit Academy Pros Podcast digs into the challenges in growing a Lawn Care and Landscape business while maximizing your profit. Christeen Era, and Steve Bousquet. are green industry experts in profit, growth, and leadership.

Transcript

0:02

Hello, Christine, how are you doing today? I am good, I'm good. It's a Friday. It's been a little bit since we've been here, so it's nice to be back. Yeah, it's been a while since we recorded. A lot has happened, a lot of good things. It is good to be back in the recording studio. And today we're going to be talking about tough conversation. Yeah, this was inspired by, you we took one of the reasons we had it and recorded for a little bit as Steve and I took a little adventure up north. We did an on -site visit with the client and we did some leadership training with them. And one of the things that came up kind of at the last minute before we arrived was the leadership team struggling around, you know, how to have tough conversations with accountability, you know, effectively. Like it was a very tough area for them to approach, they were unsure. So we gathered our content, put together some training, and it was very well received. So we thought that we would share it with all of our people in our professional world. So here we are. And tough conversations is one of those things that happens whether we want it to happen or not. Right. And tough conversations happens. It shows up every day in our lives. It could be at work. It could be at home. It could be with a family member. It could be with someone at the shopping store, right. At a store, a mall. It could be someone that we run into on the street. It could be someone that we're very close to. And so today we're going to talk about how do we go about that. It could be with a long -term employee. something, could be a topic that we've been avoiding for a long, long time, or it could be something that just happened a few moments ago. So today we're to be talking about how do we address this? How do we go about this in a safe and supportive way in a strategic way that, both people come out and it comes out with a win -win and it's something that is repeatable and something that we can address and do consistently when this tough conversation opportunity shows up again. Yeah, and think tough conversations, especially in business, they're avoided, right? And there's reasons they're avoided. think that it should be good for us to kind of go over, like, why do people avoid? What's showing up for you? Why are you avoiding these tough conversations? I used to avoid them at times, depending on the person and the situation. And then I had to figure out, how can I effectively have these tough conversations? Because what I've seen time and time again and experienced myself is when we kick the can down the road with these tough conversations, it just ends up in a worse place than we even started. You know, when we're like, ooh, I got to talk to that person. And then, you know, we're like, I'm just going to avoid it. You know, I'll just push it aside and continue to do what I'm doing. And then we avoid it some more. And then something else happens. And it's like, I should have talked to them like three months ago. And so it's kind of one of those things, like if we don't talk about it, it gets worse. And if we talked about it in the beginning, it could have been dealt with, it could have been, you know, recoverable. But if we continue to avoid it, it typically turns out to, you know, not be a solution based conversation. You know, it's kind of like that's that's the end of the road of that relationship if we avoid it. So that's what I see. I don't see the benefit in that as hard as it may be. I kind of look at like, what's the cost if we avoid it? What's the cost if, or even the benefit really, if we do sit down and have these conversations. So what are some of the reasons that people avoid these conversations? Yeah, I think a lot of it kind of starts with like that, you know, fear of conflict, right? That emotional discomfort kind of starts showing up and they're like, you know, I'm dreading this. I don't want to have this conversation. What is this going to turn out to? And they feel, I think in many ways, especially in business, that they're kind of being blackmailed in some way, like, this person holds so much power. or so many processes or so much responsibility, if I correct them or have this tough conversation, they're going to leave. And then what? So this fear base of loss, this conflict, fear of conflict and discomfort really kind of starts presenting itself. And it can be extremely taxing, just as taxing and exhausting as having the conversation, right? Is that worry over the conversation. Right, so fear of conflict constantly drives everybody to do many different things, right? And it can also, that conflict creates a lot of energy loss, but the worry about the fear of conflict also creates a tremendous amount of energy loss, right? So depending on your CliftonStrength profile, so if you are like relationship domain and you're harmony and relator and you want those, don't, you always want harmony. That idea of conflict is so like, my gosh, it's so overwhelming and it can be so draining. It's awful, but also not addressing it and having that constant worry about the conflict can also be draining. So sometimes ripping that bandaid off and then finding out, okay. The conflict was way worse in my head and in my mind and that narrative I was creating than the actual reality or conversation that I had with. person. So a lot of the fear, you know, that the fear of conflict can actually exist way worse in our minds and in our emotions than in reality. So that fear of conflict, have to ask, right? What's true? And what questions could I be asking? But that fear of conflict absolutely steps right front forward and stops us from addressing tough conversations. Yeah, so I think that's one of the main reasons. Another reason, and this is something we kind of had a conversation about this a few weeks ago, was both of us have communication in our top five. So it's like, you know, we can talk, talk, talk. We can talk and connect. We like to talk about stuff. We communicate in all these different ways. We're all about our communication skills, know, talents, things like that. So I think we realize that you know, how difficult it is for others who don't have that, you know, communication strength in their top five, you know, and I live with it. I've shared several times like my husband, he's got his number 34 strengths and Gallup Clifton strengths is communication. So it's like I have to do like all the talking and then he gets into the talking and sharing. Right. So communication doesn't come easy to all of us. It's not really something that we're taught. in school, we're not taught to like have communication skills. The only people who learn more about communication is people who love communication. So I think that's a challenge is they don't have the skills to and the toolbox to lean into to, you know, articulate how they're feeling, put their thoughts into words, navigate, you know, that conversation. And emotional discomfort really can stop people because they don't want to either be discomfort. They don't want to feel the discomfort of having that conversation. So they just don't say anything. And that kind of creates this anger or animosity towards the other people. And one of the things that I've had to learn is anger is not a really good communication tool and it is a horrible management tool. You know, it is the lowest level of energy on the energy, you know, totem pole. Anger is not a good tool. And it really puts us right in that victim pit, right? And it just creates this victim. And how do we know when we're a victim is we have lots of evidence to prove how the other people are wrong, how the other person is wrong. And we have lots of evidence to prove how we've been wronged. So that anger, it stops us. So we'll spend, and I've done it myself. I'll spend more time communicating to other people how that person is wrong, how I've been wrong than actually just having a simple conversation with the person and addressing that tough conversation. And I, by, I mean, lots of times I mean months, maybe years of conversations with other people instead of a five or 10 minute conversation with that person. And it's that emotional discomfort that stops us from having that. And even though I have and you have high communication skills, my empathy is like 23. So when I'm saying certain things, it's not making me feel emotionally uncomfortable, but I am now much more aware of how emotionally uncomfortable I can make other people feel. And for years I was unaware of that. And now that I'm becoming more aware of it, it has definitely changed the way I have conversation. Yeah, and I would agree because I have a lower empathy as well. It's down there, I think even lower than yours. And I was unaware for many years how I show up or how I communicate makes other people feel, to where they're like, you're really intimidating or you're so direct or, know. So and I was like, that's just how I am. And I realized It could be how I am, but I could communicate better and meet them where they're at. I have that skill to do that. You know, I can absolutely do that. So that's something that I've worked on. yeah, I think the lack of skill in communicating, you know, not wanting to be misunderstood. How can they clearly communicate and say things in a way that doesn't upset the other person? or they feel that they're being heard. think that that's, and how do they say it in a way? I think this is the big part of the challenge too is how do they say it in a way to where they're not being too much of an authority person, but they're saying, hey, I need to hold you accountable and I'm not your friend. So it's, they're like, I'm going to talk to you from a friend place. it's like, accountability conversations, you are not their friend. You know, we can't talk to them from a, buddy, you know, let's fix this place. Right. And especially at work, especially if you're, you know, they're your direct report, right? We don't, you need to have a best friend at work. You need to have a work friend, a best friend at work, someone that has your back. have their, their back, right? But that cannot be your direct report. You're holding them accountable and you have to hold people accountable at work. That's how things work, right? There's things that need to get done and there's accountability that's involved. So if you need to have a tough conversation around that accountability, it can't be from that buddy buddy. And it's one thing to be a friend outside of work, but even with that, we can't mix up what accountability and friendship is, right? And sometimes the best friends hold each other accountable. So sometimes friendship is accountability. You know, I'm sure we've all had a circumstance in a situation where a friend of ours had said, Hey, look, you're not doing a certain thing. You're not living up to expectations that people have held of you, even yourself. And you need to step up and I'm holding you accountable to this. And I've held friends accountable. They've held me accountable. So, and if you are a leader, that's part of leadership is holding people accountable to a different standard. So being that friend and that buddy, and as a parent, we learned that, right? We can't just be a buddy to our kids. They're looking for us to be leaders. They're looking for us to be holding them accountable. And that's part of that. And that can be emotionally discomfort. And that leads to, you know, what are the rules, right? And this is another area where there's like this lack of support, there's lack of structure, lack of security, you know, and how the what rules are there, what are the expectations. And I think this contributes to the challenge of a tough conversation. And I've heard this come up to where there's not a policy or procedure that they can refer to. So they're like, how can I hold them accountable when we don't have that in writing or we haven't defined that expectation, then I end up being the bad guy and it's kind of, it ends up being like, it's my opinion, right? So this is another reason why policies and procedures and job descriptions and expectations are so important to have in writing in a business. because it allows our emerging leaders to hold the people around them and even us to hold our emerging leaders accountable. Because we can look at the black and white print and say, look, this is the job description. This is the company policy. This is what's been violated. This isn't what's being met. And I need some help understanding what's going on. So it's like, one, it has to be unpacked with them. You got to talk about this kind of stuff. They got to be in the know. It's not just like, yeah, you read the company handbook. That's great. Okay, let's go to work. Right. It's continuing to bring that conversation in. So when we don't have the right tools in place, it makes it really difficult. And this could be the problem, right? You could be like, hey, I'm fine on communicating. I'm fine on holding people accountable. I have respect. But this could be the missing piece of I don't have that what's black and white that we can refer to as that foundation of the company and the core values and what we stand for and what's right and wrong. So it's really hard to keep them in line and keep things on course. So I think that's another challenge. Yeah, expectations and you know the levels of engagement in Gallup is number one is knowing what the expectations are. Number two is having the you know the tools, times and resources to meet those expectations, but and going over those expectations over and over and making sure that they're public right sharing them really publicly and you know making sure that we go over them. And one of the things that I'm not a huge fan of is the point systems like if people are late. One time they get a point and everything and then the write up, right? And there's a lot of coaching that could be held around that. So, and we found that, you know, through my coaching around the strengths, people need help. They can do about 80 % really well, but they need help with 20%. So instead of writing them up around the 20%, you know, how do we get them coaching and support around that 20 %? And so making sure that they, we are aware of what that 20 % is that they need more help, you know, Typically, foremen on crews will have a really difficult time doing all the paperwork. They are production driven. They are usually high restorative. They like to fix stuff. They are high executing. They like to get stuff done. And sometimes the paperwork is not part of that skill set. So just realizing that and helping reduce the paperwork, helping them getting that paperwork processed. is a big part of that. Getting angry and mad at them about not doing the paperwork is not going to help them get their paperwork done. It's just not part of that skill set. Even if it's expected, they're still going to struggle. And that's all across America. So, you know, if we know it's a known, how do we help reduce that stress and how do we help them? But getting those expectations out there and just always letting people know what the expectations are, making it very public, lots of signage. Making sure your immutable laws are very public. Making sure that people have plans when they can't meet them instead of just say, you didn't meet this task, ask them what their plan is to meet it. Help them make a plan to meet it and then hold them accountable to the plan. Just don't hold them accountable to the consequences, hold them accountable to the actions to meet those goals. Yeah, and another thing that I see is that, you know, there's employees in the company that are considered untouchable, right? Or it's like, this person's been here for a long time, or we're going to continue to make this exception for this person, you know? And so it's, they were here before we implemented the policies. So if that's a culture that you're creating, it's going to be really hard to have tough conversations. with the people that you're really trying to bring up in the company and that you rely on because it says there's an exception for someone, right? And in a team, there shouldn't be an exception. We want to ensure the entire team, including the owner, is held at the same standards. And that's one thing that I did from the start. And I think it's just because of my strengths and how I show up. always say, I'm going to do what I say I'm going to do. So if I have policies for my team, I follow those policies as the owner too. I don't cut the corners. I don't make exceptions. If I'm going to be late for work, I message my team and let them know, hey, I'm running a little bit late. Right? Do I have to do that? No, it's my company. Right? But what does it do for the team? It tells them like, hey, what I ask of you, I do as well. So, you know, it's leading by example. So it's hard to have tough conversations when we make exceptions for people in our team for whatever reason it is, their family. Well, they just don't understand they're here helping. They've been here for a long time and who knows how much longer they're gonna be here. Or, well, we have had conversations, but we're just gonna continue to have conversations, but you're holding everybody else up to a different standard. So that makes it very difficult. Yeah. Another thing that really stops people from having tough conversations, right, is the fear of backlash, right? That the tit for tat or people are going to do something in retaliation or they're going to quit or, you know, they're going to be held hostage in some way. So that is negative repercussions is a big fear. And that usually will happen once. But people get over themselves if as you continue to have these tough conversations as it becomes part of the company culture and your best team players the best people in the company will actually appreciate these tough conversations And it will make the company better and the culture much stronger Yeah, so where do we start, right? In any company like we're going to have as leaders, whether it's us, the owner, or it's, you know, our emerging leaders may need a little coaching on this as well, is where's a good place to start, you know, to have, start being able to have those tough conversations without even more friction points existing to get there. So really having a clear outline of roles and responsibilities and expectations are the, it's the key component. Like who's who, what do they do and what are the expectations from the very beginning? Yeah, I think that's that is one of the things that I see. I mean, I've been working in business with businesses for so many years and I go in and yes, I've looked at their financials, but then I look at their operations and that's one thing that I I find is that they're lacking job descriptions or if they have them, they're tucked away somewhere on a shelf covered in dust. You know, it's like they are printed 10 years ago or something like that. So those The job descriptions are a great part, making sure that we have expectations for their roles and responsibilities in there. We're talking about it. These are the things that I think really contribute to that open communication and the culture. And it's not just, in my team, I make sure my entire team knows what the other people on their team are responsible for. So they can easily read. any one of our team members job descriptions just by searching for it in our online system hub where we store everything and it's searchable by tags. So if let's say the admin wants to understand what a bookkeeper does, they can just go look at their job description, right? But we also take the time to go over their job descriptions, go over their expectations and check in with them on a regular basis. And so it's not surprising if somebody's missing the mark that we say, hey, you know, I've noticed lately you're not hitting your KPIs or you're not as responsive to the communication that's, you know, of tasks that's being given to you, help me understand what's going on. You know, and it's not a surprise and I don't feel uncomfortable asking that, you know, but in other situations that could be a tough conversation where they're like, I got to sit down and ask this person, you know, why they're not performing to where I think they should be. Right. And you know, one of the things about important importance of transparency and clear right communication, like so if the company is saying safety first, safety first, safety first, but they're not doing their OSHA meetings every week and they're not providing, you know, their first aid kits in their trucks and they're not providing, you know, the the stuff that the team needs to have that. That is a message that is confusing to the team. Right. So we. as the leaders of the company, want to make sure what we're saying, what we're putting out as the leaders, that that is consistent and we're providing that support. So if we're saying, hey, you have to hit your KPIs, we want to make sure that we're giving them the resources to hit their KPIs. We're also checking, did you hit your KPIs? And you didn't hit your KPIs, how can we help you hit your KPIs, right? So we just don't want to throw that out on January 1st, hey, these are your KPIs. And we check back on December 31st, where are you at? And so regularly communicating our business vision and the goals is a huge part of that, know, transparency and supporting our team. Yeah, and like right now we're working on our business accelerator workshop that we start every year in September so we can help our clients plan for the end of the year. And it includes them defining so they can share with their team, right? It's the start of that transparency and open communication in their company to develop that culture is, what are your amenable laws? What's the vision and mission of the company? What do you stand for? you know, what are your benchmarks, which are their KPIs, what are your goals? So it helps put this stuff in place so they have it in black and white and they can communicate it. And that's kind of one of the first stepping stones we're talking about with creating that transparency and open communication with a culture. So there's things that you can do in your business that are, you know, it's like 10 birds with one stone, right? It's like you're putting together a whole strategic business plan. And it's contributing to a shift in your culture and that transparency and what you all need to focus on for the entire year, year after year. Yeah, so they understand what they're going to be held accountable for year after year. And they're in on it. They're part of that creating that vision, that mission, vision, purpose. And it's talked about on a consistent basis. Right. So they do. We're going to go, how do we do that with regular check -ins and structure in the company and the regular meetings and addressing concerns, fostering, encouraging that open door policy. But it's really about having that open communication. around the expectations, right? And right up front, and how do we do that? you know, I've been out of my American landscape law and science this week, I've been sick, but I checked in with my team this morning and not only were they giving me a really positive report on how the week was going, but they were communicating the forecast for the rest of the year report to me. And so because they were in on the vision for this year, they were in on the goals for this year. So they were excited to report how that was going. So when you not only are sharing the current goals, but the future goals and your team can support that, that's when you get this incredible buy -in and they have accountability to themselves and each other. And then they start tracking those KPIs and holding themselves in each other. So the conversations become a little more, the tough conversations become a little easier. Now they're still difficult. We still have a challenge with certain conversations. But you just have to keep practicing them and scheduling and going through. Yeah, and I think part of that, you know, it's and I've gotten this feedback before from new team members that's been hired and onboarded at core is asking for feedback, right? Like we do team surveys as we onboard them. Like I asked them, like, how are you doing? What's going on? You know, we have at different levels, whoever is managing that team members onboarding. But the other thing I have to tell them and they're kind of shocked is They're like, I've never been asked so much, you know, how am I doing? Or am I having challenges or, know, what does success look like for you? You know, so that I think has shown them that, you know, hey, you can come to us. We're here to support you to be successful. And, you know, we're genuinely concerned about them succeeding in the company and understanding. what's expected of them. And we're here to listen and support them in a very open way when they do come to us. And I even have to say like, hey, I know I'm busy, but if you really have something that you need, please ask. I tell my team members all the time, like, let me know, please ask. And we make that space as well, because it doesn't happen really that often in between. but in our one -on -ones or our check -ins, they're letting me know what they need. Yeah. And a lot of that goes, cause you're doing a lot of training. You're doing a lot of personal development with your team, professional development as well, not just skills around the bookkeeping and accounting and like consulting a profit first and other skills. You're also doing one -on -ones regular meetings with your teams in a structured format. and you know, so they feel supported around that. So. tell me and you also use your, what is it, five and 15? What is that? 15 and five. So that's a structure, that's a program you use. they know, so the biggest thing is they know what is gonna happen. They know when it's gonna happen and they know what is expected of them, right? So it's not random. It's not like random questions. It's not randomly scheduled and it's not like random expectations. station. Yeah. And my team leads with executing and strategic, you know, or even influencing. So it's a system that I found like when it made it easier to have that accountability and check in. You know, we got it built out. It wasn't very hard to build out. It just took some time and attention. And then once we got it built out, it just continues to repeat itself. So they know. I'm going to ask, what are you focusing on this week? How can I help you? How can I support you? Is there anything else that you need to talk about? So it's just these consistent questions that they can answer. And then they're updating their KPIs, letting me know this is on track or this isn't on track so we can talk about it. So it's a very easy, quick way to connect and understand and help them feel supported. And it does make the tough conversations easier. I've said several times to people, I had way more tough conversations three, four years ago on a consistent basis than I do now. There's one every quarter or three a year that I have in my company of tough conversations. Everything else is... I wouldn't even call it tough. It's just like a, I want to check in. Why is this off? Let's talk about it. That's not hard. That's really easy because we both know it's not being done. Right. Right. When you're putting your KPIs right up there, you know, and we talk in my company, my landscape company, you know, we talk numbers a lot throughout the whole company, right? People are seeing the numbers, the money numbers all the time. People ask, why, why do you share the money numbers with your whole company? And I'm like, well, cause that's how everybody in my company gets paid. Like we pay our team with dollars, right? Nobody in my company gets paid with like Tic Tacs or &Ms or anything. everyone, we pay them with money. So like it's important for them to understand what money is, what it looks like, how we generate money, how much a lawn application is, how much we charge per hour, how much our revenue is per hour. You know, we share, you know, we're going to spend, you know, a million dollars on in materials and you know, how much stuff costs, how much tires costs, how much mirrors costs when they break it. So they know we're pretty transparent in our our expenses Because we use profit first and our team knows like what the percentages are so there's not this There's more of a reality and not a fantasy because we have that transparency and their their revenue is tracked on a per job for landscaping and on a daily for for our one applicators, so they're knowing what they're generating every day for their total revenue and their net revenue and So there's a reality, a daily reality for them every day. and, and because that's how they get paid, they get, mean, they don't get paid daily, but you know, their revenue is generated daily. So we have a lot of, reality around money when it comes to that. So the conversations are, are easier, like Christine said, because, know, if you have these conversations, but the expectations are upfront, you know. So. Right. So when you have those conversations on a regular basis and you have those expectations upfront, that is kind of setting the, it's almost like putting the right address in your GPS. Like you give the expectation upfront of where you want to go, right? And so you're not mad at the GPS for going to the wrong place because you put in the wrong address. So if we don't give the expectation upfront to the GPS, we put the wrong address in who's, who can we be mad at? right? The GPS or, or right. So if we're not giving those expectations upfront, who's, who's creating the challenge, right? So if we're not giving those expectations upfront to our team in a really clear, precise way. Now, when I started doing this, I did not do that great of a job of it, right? I tried and I said, okay, I focused too much on what I didn't want done. Honestly, I would say, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this. And I had to decide. Focus only on what I wanted. Focus only on what I wanted. I have to keep telling myself that it took three to five years to really dial it in, dial it in. So I found the simplest things or, you know, Occam's razor, the simplest solutions is the best usually. And that was what I found. So the less I said, the better. the more clear, the better. the, the more mission base I gave it and the less definitive. step by step, the better. And then my team found the way to succeed and win with those. But I had to give the expectation. Yeah, and I don't think any of us who are at this point in business started off doing this well at all, which is why I really think it's important to talk about. one of the things I used to do is I would just, I just come in hot. I'm like, I don't have time for this peopling stuff and this, I'm just gonna tackle this like head on and be like, why did you do this? You know, so the way I was doing it wasn't, it definitely wasn't a relationship base. It wasn't taking the time out to understand, you know, what's the real problem here, right? And taking a breath. So I want to kind of go over like, how do we prepare? What's the best way to prepare for a conversation? Because I definitely know how I used to do it was not the way, you know, and it's like, I even feel bad for some of the team members that still work for us. And I'm like, you got like the old me talking to, you know, I'm like, why are you still here? But you know, so that was that was not the way. So a good way is, you know, one, give yourself some space as a leader. There's going to be things in our company that really tick us off. And that's just the reality of it, right? It's in the moment. Our expectations aren't met. We're disappointed. We start having those conversations in our head. You know, we go and we've talked about like, you know, the learner and judge your mindset. We go down the judge your path. We have all these wonderful colorful words we're saying to ourselves and about the challenge. So really giving ourselves that space to one, calm down, you know, cool off and then identify the issue. Right. What is the problem or what has been happening happening and be very specific? I know for me, generalities set me off. So I'm like, I don't don't tell me all the time or you know, I want to know specifics. So we want to give them specifics about what the issue is and we want to identify them and we also want to explain to them because they may not understand what the impact is or what the problem is or how it's affecting either the team or the company. So you want to give them that as well. It's not just like You did this and that was bad and you totally screwed up. It's, you hey, you've been late several times. We've talked about this. We've talked about this. We have company policies about this. Here's the company policy. What it's showing the rest of the team is that being late is okay. And that violates our company policies and that violates our immutable laws. And that impacts our culture because it says that we're making an exception for others. And it could be as simple as that, right? But it's saying, hey, you're late. It's violating the policies and this is the impact or the costs that it's having. So you wanna start there. You also want to have a clear agenda of what you're gonna go over so you don't go in 50 other directions. Or if they try to pull you in 50 other directions and they're like, yeah, but then this happened and that happened. And I tell you, that will happen. They will do this, right? start distracting you, you can acknowledge it and say, I understand that. That's a conversation for another time. Right now we need to focus on this. So you have your agenda. And then again, know, anticipate the reactions because like I said, they're going to be like, well, this happened and that happened and what about over here? And, you know, they might get upset or defensive or make excuses. So getting in front of that and understanding like this person's probably going to be upset and they might make excuses and they might try to deflect on somebody else. And, you know, so just being prepared for it, because if we, if we don't understand what's coming, you know, we're going to be upset about, you know, what does happen. Right. So just kind of going, well, best case scenario, could be this worst case, could be that. And I guarantee there's never been a worst case from any tough conversation I've had. And I've had some where people just like walk out and quit. And I'm like, okay. Bye, see you later. But I kind of knew that I prepared myself for it. So I wasn't disappointed. I was like, yeah, that just happened. OK, now what? So I think that really sets you up for success. And the other thing is always, of course, the right setting. We want to make sure that we're not having these conversations where people can hear through the thin walls. or in a team space or in the middle of a meeting. And always setting in kind of like a neutral space is always really good as well. So the person feels comfortable and not defensive. Yeah. Stay away from that, you know, brush stroking always never you always, they always, always is a really dangerous word. want to definitely be specific, use examples and stay on topic. And, one of the things that, people have been famous for is bringing in, yeah, but Johnny did this and Susie did that. They bring in other people, you know, and just say, well, okay, right now we're just talking about. you know, you and I are talking about this issue right here, that I've written down on the agenda, have stuff written down on a piece of paper and really stay focused absolutely because they will try to throw you off. It's just human, it's not them, they're not a bad person, it's just human nature. And to be defensive is also human, again, they're not being a bad person, it's just really, really just being human. So how do we save things that, how do we go about this effective communication so we can really stay positive and, but impact. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is where people struggle because we have practiced this several times in teams and, you know, they'll try to start having a tough conversation and they'll be like, okay, so, you know, thanks for taking the time. You've been doing, you know, great lately, but I wanted to have a conversation with you. And I'm like, but have they really been doing great? Like, do you want to say that? You know, so they feel like this obligation to like praise them. or win them over with words. And that's not what we want to do, right? You can say, hey, appreciate you taking the time. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you. It's important that I do, you know, or we make this space for it. But we don't want to be like, you're just doing fantastic because that's not the case, right? So we don't want to kill them with kindness. We want to, you know, set a very kind of neutral stage and acknowledge like, I'm glad you're here. I really want to have this conversation with you. And some of the things, you know, is that our key is, and I think this is good, there's using and and but, right? So if we tell someone, you know, I like how you've been doing this lately, but you know, you're not on time, right? So it kind of dismisses the first thing that you're saying. You're doing this good. but you're not doing this good. So changing just that but to an and can kind of change the way that they're receiving the communication. So, you I like how you've been, you know, participating in our team huddles in the morning, you know, and your lateness this last week has kind of impacted how the team, you know, sees you, you showing up or impacted when we can get those huddles started. So that can make a huge difference. And we both learned that from executive speaker trainer, John Bates, which was a very good, it made sense, right? It's like, and, but, and not, but. So it kind of changes and it doesn't dismiss what the statement we're making before. Yeah, the and is a big part and and it just keeps the conversation going. And one of the things that I like to do is give the person call. I like to call it an opportunity to improve, right? Because I don't like to beat people with stick because I want them to see it as an opportunity. You've been late and here's an opportunity to make an improvement. They can start being on time and they can start contributing to the team in a more positive way. So let's come up with a plan. So it's not, it's a much more forward looking and I want to keep it much more forward looking than in the past because neither one I cannot and they cannot go back and fix those late. But what we can do is create a model or a plan to, you know, get back into the company culture and get back on track with supporting that. So we want to definitely make sure that we're going to come up with a plan, write it down. Right? Because when we write something out, it's definitely more impactful and it makes people commit more. And then we want to keep it definitely focused on the solution and forward focused. Yeah, and another one that we have learned over time is using I statements. We use this a lot. We use this when we experience share. We talk about, you know, from our perspective, we use this, you know, in it's a coaching technique and I statement. So what I statements do, it prevents defensiveness by focus focusing on our own perspective. Right. So if I say, you know, I feel this way or I am seeing you show up late instead of, yeah, well, Dave said that you've been late this week. It could be instead of throwing Dave under the bus to where the guy might be like, well, Dave shows up late all the time. Like, what's the problem? Why are you talking to me? So we really can change that wording and avoid that whole conflict of he did it, he did it. you know, whatever deflective that's going on and say, I am aware that you have been showing up late. So it changes it and it's saying, you know, it's from my perspective, it's from me. And it also avoids that blame, you know, of others or, you know, and it can also be stated in a way to where we're expressing our own concern, right, our own awareness, what we do know. So it's coming from us. So using I statements can really change the focus of the conversation and it can just completely remove that defensive behavior or even feelings that might get triggered in those conversations. Right. Yeah. The I statements are, and it's hard to do without some practice. And we've had people really have to go through and practice that. Right. What I'm noticing is on your time cards that there's three late this week, instead of saying, I see you, you're late or you've been late three times this week. You're late all the time. Right. That's that brush stroke. You say, I've noticed I see on your time card that, you know, there's three late. person is like, it's very difficult to argue with that, but it's also not as, it gives something that is documented, but it, and it's not your late. It's like your time card is showing that this is the documented fact. And I know we're just going with the late, right? But I mean, there's other things like, okay, you know, I was reading, I was reading the KPI reports and I see from the KPI reports that the KPIs have been missed. three times this week. Tell me more about that. Tell me about that. Help me understand that. So, you know, that is more of a, I call it, it's an adult conversation because there's a certain emotional maturity that has occurred to have that conversation. It doesn't come from a place of anger. So, but they will talk if we approach it like that. And you will get all kinds of great information because they're not coming from a place of defensiveness. And you will get all kinds of innovation, creativity, input, value from that. And I know that because when I used to go, your numbers suck, what's wrong with you? People would not, like, your equipment sucks, you give me too much work. It rained, it was hot. It was just an excuse factory. I would never get any kind of input that was valuable. I would get just excuses and I would never get any kind of innovation or any kind of anything. But if I approach it now with like, Hey, I noticed that this happened and help, you know, tell me about that. It'd be like, then I get a real conversation. So this takes practice. So like I shared earlier, you know, I was not good at it at first. It definitely takes practice. That's why coaching and programs are so valuable. Coaching is way more than just showing up for 30 minutes and listening to somebody talk. It is practicing, practicing, and practicing. Yeah, and I like this because if somebody would have told me five years ago that using these techniques mean in tough conversations, I get to talk less. I would have been like, how is that even possible? What are you talking about? And so it's really great when we can say, you know, something like, you know, I reviewed, like you're saying the KPIs, these three KPIs were missed over the last week. you know, I'm trying to understand that. And then we just shut up. Like we stopped talking and it opens up all this space for them just to spill the beans and, you know, and they'll sometimes even talk themselves into their own accountability. Right. And we just sat there and then it's like, that was so easy. So, yeah, it's so much easier when we kind of take a step back and we, we implement some techniques. So those I statements. being specific, avoiding distractions. So we don't want to have those tough conversations when people are popping their head in and out the door. So if you do have that type of environment, you know, put a sign on the door of do not disturb. Doesn't have to be specific. It's none of their business. You know what you're doing in there. They just need to know like, hey, no one's to come in and pop their head in. So make sure that that there isn't that distraction and you both have each other's, all of each other's attention. And then another one is like reflect back for understanding, you know, and this is, we did this, this active listening exercise and you know, Steve has done it and it's just funny. It's one of those things that's hard to do in the beginning again, but you know, reflecting back what you hear someone saying. Yes, listening, exercising, exercises can be very, challenging at first. And, and even at second, it takes a lot of practice to listen. You repeat back what the person says, then you're trying to get the actual emotional may Lou or what they actually mean by it. And then also what they're committing to by saying it. And that takes, a lot of practice and put when it's one of those things, the more you do it. the better you get at it, the less you have to say, and the more you hear when people are talking. Yeah, and I think it'd be good to share like an example of like, what does that look like? Right? What's a listening exercise? could be for like lawn care, could be for an employee. So I mean, that's a, so someone will say, like, that's a great, mean. Yeah, so I could say, you know, if I was the employee and I went to Steve, you know, he asked me, he may have said, like, Christine, I need to talk to you. And he's like, hey, I noticed that these three deadlines were missed this last week. Tell me more about that. So I would say to Steve, like as the employee. Yeah, I know I've been missing these deadlines. I've been feeling really overwhelmed with this. new project that was thrown at me two weeks ago. And it's just really been stressing me out. And I know it's been pulling me off task and I've just been missing things. So you missed those deadlines and you've been feeling overwhelmed with the new project that you've been assigned and you're overwhelmed by the task. Yes. So what I'm hearing you say is that you're feeling overwhelmed and you just cannot keep up with what you Yes, I feel like I have too much on my plate and I need support to figure out what's a priority and if there's anything I can take off my plate for a little bit so I can stop missing those deadlines. And that's as simple as it needs to be, right? It's like, that's an active listening of, I said how I was feeling and what was going on, Steve acknowledged it, I felt heard, and then I asked for help. I was like, okay, I feel seen and supported, and now I need to ask for help. I feel good enough to ask for help or say what I need instead of making an excuse. So it's a connective conversation. And this is, I've had this conversation. So this isn't one that's just been kind of made up off the cuff, right? This conversation and something very similar has happened several, several times, you know, over the years. And that was the outcome to where it was like, yeah, I don't know what to do. I just need help. I need help with this or I need help. Like they know a little bit, but they're not quite there. So it can get you there faster and also give you some understanding of how this person is feeling. or what their challenge is in this situation. They just give it to you. Right. And it's just really a matter of questions and you can keep asking questions like that. you know, so what does that look like? What is, you know, getting help look like? And then they'll tell you so you don't have to be the answer person. So instead of coming up with the answer, so like what is getting help look like? What is taking off your plate look like? And so what I'm hearing is you're committed, you're committed to getting what you have to get done, done, but you need help at this time. And then they'll say yes or no. And the idea is not to have the answer, but to find a way to help them through this. And as a manager or a leader, it's to help your team. They find the way you don't have to find the way. Cause in plus if it's their idea, there's more buy -in. They know what they need more than we know based on their skills and talents. So it all makes it all start to align when things don't feel right. And it's out of alignment. That's when the stress. and all other issues start to show up. Yeah, and this is part of the technique of, you know, focusing on solutions, right? And letting your team member involve the team member in finding solutions. We don't want to serve them up the solutions. Like, we know you've been doing this. Now this is what we want to do. We, I want you to do. We want them to find the solutions because then they have the buy -in. And what we're really aiming for is that win -win with, you know, the tough conversation and that coaching opportunity. and we're going to have to hold them accountable. So we have to set up that smart goal of what this fix looks like, what the solution looks like. So we want it to be specific. We want it to be measurable, achievable, relevant, and time -bound. So before we end that conversation, we find out what specifically are they doing? How do we know that that's going to get done? How is it going to be achieved? Tell me about that. Are these things relevant to solving the problem? And hey, I'm checking in with you in seven days. So next Friday, we're going to have a conversation. I want you to come to me before lunch. Right? So time bound. And this brings us into that easy next stage of upholding the accountability. And I'll just share a really quick story. I had one employee who came to me during the one on one and said, this one thing was happening and it was a real big brushstroke. And I said, all right. So we ran through this and we developed, we ran through the smart goals and I said, we're going to meet next Friday and you're going to show me the report that supports this brushstroke. And at the end of the week, there was one event that had occurred. And he's like, yeah, I guess it wasn't as big as my narrative had made it. And what it did was not only did it, changed his narrative. It also reduced the friction between him and one of his team members. because of a one time event, he had created it always. And so it changed their relationship actually. but having this simple process. and checking back in the seven days. It was like, okay, we just can't run around the company saying these brushstrokes. We're gonna be accountable for this. It's gonna be through this smart process. And it was like, okay, so now I know if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna be held accountable for what I'm, you know, the sky is falling. If I'm running around like Chicken Little, I'm gonna be held accountable. So instead of that fantasy stuff or the, you know, he started coming with the real things, things that he wanted to achieve instead of complained about. So his role in the company actually expanded because he started showing up with value. Yeah, and that really makes a huge difference, right? When we're changing how our team shows up and what they're focused on and their value. That's what we want these to have, you know, to really have that impact, that long -term impact as we're making the time to have these tough conversations with them. And this is the biggest thing I would say that's the dropped ball in this, right? It's like you get into it, you do all that hard work and then... the wheels come off and you're like, well, I did have a conversation. OK, how is the follow up? Well, I didn't really follow up with them yet. OK, how long ago was that conversation? It was about, you know, a month or so ago. OK, so, you know, this is where we want to set a date, right? Then it's it's set down. It's like, hey, by this date, this time, this is what needs to be accomplished. And it makes it so much easier to come back and follow through. So one, depending on the situation, you might need to monitor progress over 30 days, right? If we do a pip on someone, a personal improvement plan, right? And have a really tough conversation, we might have to monitor their progress and they might need to be reporting into us once or twice a week to let us know that these actions have been taken care of, you know? And then you want to ensure that the agreed upon actions are taken. So, you know, they're not just saying, yeah, check the box, that's done, that's done. We need to know what, you know, what did you do? Show me that you did it, you know, or what does this look like now? So you're really checking in and making sure that, you know, something has changed and it's been, you know, completed as we discussed, right, in our conversation and its consistency. Right. So we don't want to just be like, I'm going to follow up on that guy. You know, yeah, we're going to we really have it out for this guy. You know, we're going to take the time to get this guy on the right track. It's everyone and employees will feel that way. I was just having a conversation with the crew lead yesterday and he was really having an issue with one of his direct reports that felt that they weren't getting as much attention as someone else. And there was this narrative going on. So we want to make sure that no matter who it is, it's fair, it's consistent. We're doing it with everyone. And that we're pulling in those opportunities, our policies, and other things that are in place to support this type of behavior. So we're pulling them back to review the foundation of the company so they don't forget and they learn from this experience. So one of things I want to share on that and making sure everyone knows. So for our lawn techs, because they don't see the company calendar on everyone, we print it out so that they can see that everyone has their one -on -ones for the month. So it's on the board visually. Everybody can see that. Who's meeting with who, when. it just, not that they need to know that. And I'm not saying they check on a regular basis, but they can see. Okay, everybody's meeting with someone on a regular basis and it's, you know, equitable. Cause if you have people who have high consistency in relator, they want to know that that's happening. and it's just, it's part of the company culture that everyone's getting supported. It just shows that just like our, our, safety meetings, you know, it's every Wednesday. and it just shows that if we're going to, if we're going to say that we're going to support our team. There needs to be one -on -ones. If we're going to be safety focused, there needs to be ocean meetings. And it just keeps that mission, vision, and purpose being driven. Yeah. And we want to provide them resources, right? So in the company, as we continue to a company in this structure, and this is what's going to allow you to properly scale and grow your business and not backslide or not get stuck at a revenue tier or something like that, is make sure that you have some sort of training program for them. You know, some sort of success path, a thousand day development plan, and it has to go beyond the technical skills. We're not just training them to be lawn techs. We're not just training them to install pavers. So it's like we may need to give them some soft skills. And this has shown up a lot in business. It's the people are lacking the soft skills. What is professional mature behavior? How do I properly communicate? Who do I properly communicate that to? What is healthy conflict resolution? So there are some soft skills that's great to give to your team and provide to your team. And some are gonna be naturally better at it than others, but it's gonna develop the potential that you have in your company to level up as you scale and grow. And it's gonna have a huge impact on your culture. And then... especially if you're trying to grow your company, right? The more talented people you have, their EQ and their emotional intelligence is just going to help you grow your company. Yeah, yeah, and there's conversational intelligence, you know, to where it's like the people are not taught how to communicate, right? And I was reading this book a while ago and it's called Nurture Shock. And it was just very interesting. They covered a topic in there where a lot of the content that children watch and it's not just, you know, the generation like, you know, I have. You know, a 28 year old, have a 21 year old, I have a six year old, right? It's like these generations, multiple generations watch content to where it was the, you know, 25 minutes of conflict, right? Of all this drama, drama, drama, and five minutes of resolution. So there's been so many generations that they learned all about conflict, but they did not learn about resolution. So it's not intentional, it's just a lack of awareness and a lack of tools and know -how. But those are things that can really impact our team's life if we give them those tools and it's gonna impact our company as well with profitability. absolutely. Yes. Yep. That five minutes at the end of the show, everything gets fixed. Right, yeah. So, yeah, it's just not reality. It is not. All right, weird. thank you everyone for joining us on this podcast and we look forward to you joining us on the next podcast.