Lost in Indian Territory

Kathleen and Vickie begin a search in the Indian Territory (Oklahoma ) for Vickie's great-grandmother Ellen's maiden name. Kathleen's advice? "Let's let's go back to the starting gate." She outlined 10 resources/steps to review even before the DNA analysis.  The more information gathered on the family for your DNA analysis, the more success you'll have toward reaching your goal.  This Do it yourself genealogy work will help Vickie build a strong foundation to stand on when she starts swinging the hammer on her family brick wall.

What was Ellen’s Maiden Name?

1.     Organize. Separate family units (i.e. children from first and second husbands, and  grandchildren.)
2.     Local Records. School census and enrollment documents will provide birthdates and parentage hints, and possible extended families.  Review school records for all of Ellen’s children and those under her care.
3.     Church Records. Marriage records often name parents, and family members as witnesses.  Local preachers may have kept records. You may uncover Ellen’s maiden name through her family connections.
4.     Vital Records. Birth certificates, delayed birth certificates, and death certificates may name mother’s maiden name. These may also assist with #1: separating family units.
5.     Social Security Application ($$). This may not be fruitful at this time, as the children of Ellen may not know their mother’s maiden name. But, be sure to re-evaluate the cost/risk benefit.
6.     Marriage Records. Marriage applications often name mother’s maiden name. Review the marriage records for all children of Ellen.
7.     Midwife Records / Family Bibles.  Midwives typically know the families and may have recorded Ellen’s maiden name. Don’t forget to research the midwife. Many families had a midwife in the family. 
8.     Newspapers (Local and Online). Obituaries and even court recorder published announcements may proffer names and relationships. Who was Ellen’s family?
9.     Land Records. James (and/or Ellen) owned their land.  How did they acquire it?  Land deeds may provide hints to Ellen’s family, parents, or name first husband, if applicable.
10. Native American Records / Applications (NARA).  Don’t forget the rejected applications also.  

 Our goal here was to identify records that often name mother’s maiden name.
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Transcript

00:00

John Brandt

Ladies and gentlemen, from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City. On the other side of the mighty MO, home of the 2023 World Champion Kansas City Chiefs. Welcome to Hittin’ the Bricks with Kathleen. The genealogy show that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hobby host. And on this episode, we'll be talking to Vickie Cook from the Grand Canyon State, the great state of Arizona. So let's start it in the bricks.

Kathleen Brandt

So John, we are all set. Vickie and I well.

John Brandt

I wanted to ask a little bit if I could. Where is Snowflake, Arizona. Is that where you're from?

Vicki Cooke

Well, I'm from Tulsa, but I've lived here almost 20 years.

John Brandt

From Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Vicki Cooke

Northern Arizona. Okay. Yeah, Northern Arizona, about a hundred miles from Flagstaff. A lot of people that we've traveled across country right in the flagstick on I-40.

John Brandt

Oh, yeah. Yeah, We've done the Flagstaff run. In fact, I think what happened was, is we were traveling one of our first vacations. We went out. This goes all the way back to the Triple-A book and the ring baloney drum from the first episode alone. And yeah, so we went out and actually we drove, I think, through Flagstaff and then we drove south, I think to Phoenix. And then we were planning on going back through Flagstaff, but Flagstaff got like nine feet of snow overnight.

Vicki Cooke

That can happen.

John Brandt

And so we had to take the southern route back to Kansas. We, we didn't have a choice. So I'll let Kathleen, you and Vicki have already chit chatted about this. What what are we talking about today?

Kathleen Brandt

I don't know. Vicki, why don't you tell us? Well, I do know, but I'm going to have Vicki.

John Brandt

I have no idea why I came here.

Kathleen Brandt

No idea why I'm here.

Vicki Cooke

Well. I'm looking for my great grandmother's maiden name. I’ve looked for ten years, and I've never been able to find a couple references to where she was born. And that's really about it.

John Brandt

So we're looking for your great grandmother's name.

Vicki Cooke

My great grandmother.

John Brandt

See, I'm getting better at this.

Vicki Cooke

Nice.

Kathleen Brandt

I know, right? Vicki, tell us a little bit about what you know about your great grandmother.

Vicki Cooke

Well, I know she lived and Cherokee Nation, Indian territory. I think she was born sometime between 1867 and 1871. But I've seen her name on a couple of census records. One showing Arkansas is the state that she was born in, and another stating, I believe, Indian territory. So that's about all I know.

Kathleen Brandt

So do you know anything about her husband?

Vicki Cooke

Very little with him as well. I know he was born in Indian territory. I know his mother's name.

Kathleen Brandt

And what is his name?

Vicki Cooke

His name was James Carr. His mother was Rachel Graves. Well, she had several names. apparently, she was married a few times, but I think she was a Vann as well. And that's another concern. I've seen it spelled several ways. From Kan to Kerr Oh, gosh. A couple other things make those spellings as well.

Kathleen Brandt

Absolutely. Sometimes it's phonetics and sometimes it's bad indexing. Or is it sometimes is poor writing by the census takers. So your question is why can't I find my great grandmother's maiden name and your great grandmother, We know her name was Ellen and she was married to Jim Carr. Have you found any kind of a marriage record? And there's a reason for that, of course. I mean, we're talking early in Oklahoma. You did mentioned Cherokee Indian Territory and early in Oklahoma. Of course, we didn't have the marriage records for any non-whites until later, so they would have been married too early. But when do you think they were married?

Vicki Cooke

My best estimate is around 1890 or so.

Kathleen Brandt

They were actually married around 1898. But I'm going to back you up. You're looking for a female's maiden name. What we do know is we can't go through the female because we already don't know who she is. We just know her name is Ellen. We know she has a lot of children. You see her on census records that they believe in in 1900, in the 1910 you sent me. I don't know if we have others.

Vicki Cooke

I believe up to 1920.

Kathleen Brandt

By the 1930s, we see James as a widow.

Vicki Cooke

Right.

Kathleen Brandt

So we can assume she's deceased by then, but we don't have any kind of death record or death information on her. This is a very fun project, but you are going to have to start back at the gate. One thing that I learned about Ellen, somebody who married James Carr, is that she had been married twice. Did you see that?

5:00

Kathleen Brandt

Yes. So those first two children are not James Carr's. If you do what we call a census analysis, which is what I did, starting with 1890 census, where we first see James Carr, he's 14 years old and he's in the Cherokee Nation. He's with all of Rachel's people, right? The Beans and the Vans. All of Rachel's people, as you mentioned, as we follow him in 1900 and 1910, we see that he's still in the Cherokee Nation area. It was the 1900 census and the 1910 that explains about the time they got married. And those two agree with one another. In 1910. It tells you that they've only been married about 11 years and in 1900 they tell you they've only been married about two.

Kathleen Brandt

So they got married somewhere around 1898. That tells us also that she lost a child, not George and Lizzy, but there's a third child. We don't know when that child was born. Her oldest child actually with James was Rachel. Okay. And Rachel was born somewhere…

Vickie Cooke

1903

Kathleen Brandt 

Yes. Now, all the way down there are all these children that you have attached to her because they're in the house. But again, remember, we don't know Lizzie and her oldest son, George, who also goes by Gus. Matter of fact, his mother calls him Gus all the time in records. So what kind of records have you seen?

John Brandt

Can I jump in here real quick? When we're talking about the Cherokee Nation and I'm assuming around the 1900s, where are we talking about.

Kathleen Brandt

Near Tahlequah in Oklahoma. We are. Thank you. Thank you. We are talking about the Indian territory in Oklahoma.

John Brandt

We're in Oklahoma.

Kathleen Brandt

We are in Oklahoma

John Brandt

1900?

Kathleen Brandt

Hundred, in 1890 to 1900.

John Brandt

1900. Okay. So. Okay. Thank you.

Kathleen Brandt

That's a good question.

John Brandt

You're darn right it is. You're darn right it is. I can come up with some good questions.

Kathleen Brandt

Well, that's why I love you doing this John.

John Brandt

And I need this for my Triple A map. You know.

Kathleen Brandt

I see that.

Vicki Cooke

I see It goes back a ways for sure.

John Brandt

Yes, it does. Okay. Sorry. Please continue.

Kathleen Brandt

So we know Ella was married twice. We don't know the name of her first husband. We do know that her first two children, though, for sure, are the first husbands, even though they use the Car surname Car, probably the only father that they know of. And they may not even know that their mother was married before. You know, up to this point, I never see anything that defies that. They think they're Cars. So as I'm going through this, you gave me the four youngest children's names. What do you know about the four youngest children?

Vicki Cooke

To it would be my grandmother, Alberta, Alberta, and her twin sister, Roberta. And then Arther and then a Jim for June.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay, so where does Luella come in? And I know that's a funny spelling name, so to pronounce it for me again.

Vicki Cooke

I think it's Luella, but it's still, from what I found, l u w h e l l e r.

Kathleen Brandt

And where do you have Eleanor and Catherine and Maggie?

Vicki Cooke

Catherine. I have at 1919 Maggie, 1918.

Kathleen Brandt

So there's an issue with the last four that you gave me. The problem is they were not mothered by Ellen. Well, they are not Ellen and James Carr's children. Well, they are Ellen's grandchildren, huh? She you raise her oldest daughter's children. Her oldest daughter's name was Lizzy from her first husband. Those four girls are Musgroves?

Kathleen Brandt

Lizzy has been married to a man by [the name of]Turner. Musgrove.

Vicki Cooke

Right I’m aware of that.

John Brandt

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Say that again. Lizzy was married to who?

Kathleen Brandt

He was married to a man named Turner Musgrove. And you knew that, right?

Vicki Cooke

Right.

Kathleen Brandt

So when I tell Vicki that I need her to go back to the gate, she has to divide her family. There's no reason looking for a great grandmother. When we had the families all bled together. Those last four are Musgroves, and how do I know that? Yes.

John Brandt

How do you know that, Kathleen?

Kathleen Brandt

Because I get paid to do this.

Vicki Cooke

Oh, no, I know.

John Brandt

Find another answer for that. But you know that, Kathleen. How could you possibly know that?

Kathleen Brandt

Because there are school records in the Indian territory, and it tells me that even though Jim and Eleanor enrolling these children these last four have the Musgrove surname, well, they're in the household. They're raised by their grandparents. Those four were Ellen's grandchildren. They're not even Jim's grandchildren.

Vicki Cooke

Wow.

10:00

John Brandt

Well, I'm I'm going to throw out my page of notes now because they're pretty much meaningless at this point.

Kathleen Brandt

So sorry. I'm so sorry. Okay, so Ellen and Jim have seven children together. Ellen had those two other older ones and four grandchildren.

Vicki Cooke

Oh, wow.

Kathleen Brandt

And I have the school records. I do not have them all. I'm going to let you work with school records, because what we're here to do is DIY genealogy. And as I mentioned earlier, we will never find Ellen by looking for Ellen. All we know about Ellen are, the children she has, the husband she has, the in-laws she has, and the community. So that's where you're going to find the answers.

John Brandt

Okay, This is becoming a theme. What I've noticed over the last few episodes, it seems that you spend a lot of time not looking for the person you're looking for, but looking for all the people around them, and then you get the information on them. Is that the cluster research that you always talk about?

Kathleen Brandt

You are so smart. John listens to me and that's why we've been married 25 years. I Well, yeah, I don't even think that he's going to listen to me. And right before I'm like, I'm throwing in the towel, he comes up with something like that.

John Brandt

No, actually, actually, Chewy is passing me notes for questions to ask because I truly I don't. Listen, I'm a man listening to my wife.

Vicki Cooke

Oh.

John Brandt

Please not. Let's be unrealistic. You've got a better chance of finding your grandmother's name.

Kathleen Brandt

I want you to also redo anything I'm telling you. I want you to go back to the 1900 census. I want you to see what it says about them being born George and Lizzie in 1895. In 1897. But it also tells you. But we've only been married two years. So when I'm going through all of this, I'm going through, as I said, a census analysis. And you mentioned Arkansas. So I took every year that we had that you gave me from 1900 to 1920, I actually included the 1890 for James. And in 1920 it does say that there's eight children, seven living, as I said, as does say, Arkansas. However, all the rest of them do say Oklahoma and Indian territory. We don't know anything about Ellen in general. I'm not sure Ellen knew anything about Ellen. We're talk someone who's born around 1870, 1872, they're moving. We're talking about land runs in Oklahoma. Homesteaders, people trying to build black communities in Oklahoma. Remember, Oklahoma was the one state they thought at one point would be an all-black state. And there was over 50 communities that were all black. We only hear about a few, but there are so many reasons for people to move there. So could they have come from Arkansas? They could have easily come from the Arkansas, even from the Arkansas Indian territory. We don't know because all we know is she's older than her husband. What kind of records have you looked at?

Vicki Cooke

Pretty much census records. And of course, a lot of Cherokee Nation records, which is will applications for enrollment Dawes Rolls, I looked at marriage records.

Kathleen Brandt

Were there any other records?

Vicki Cooke

I think that's pretty much it.

Kathleen Brandt

You did mention Dawes Rolls, which is one of the great ones to do. But at this time frame, if anything, you'll find them on the reject. I have not researched to rejected, but they will not come up with the regular Dawes Rolls Yeah, you can access those mostly through Ancestry. Just Google it and it comes up quicker. If you say the rejected Native American or Indian Territory Rolls just somehow use the word rejected. It will come up for you. And I can also probably send you a link if I can find it, but what we know is that those rolls are possible. The problem is if you're looking through Ellen, what are you looking for?

Vicki Cooke

Right.

Kathleen Brandt

So the one way you can do an earlier one is if you're looking for an Ellen with a George and a Lizzie, and maybe with a lot of searching, you might find that person in the time frame that they were in because there are those other census records in the Indian territory. So have you taken a DNA test?

Vicki Cooke

I have

Kathleen Brandt

So your DNA test should give you some hints.

Vicki Cooke

It Should.

15:00

Kathleen Brandt

It should. You might have to have a professional DNA analysis. The best DNA test you can get at this point is to test George or Lizzie's descendants. And then test yourself to narrow out which one comes from which family line, because George and Lizzie's descendants are only going to match you on Ellen, the great grandmother that you're looking for. They're only going to match you on that line on the female side, and they're not going to match with you at all on the male side.

Vicki Cooke

Interesting.

Kathleen Brandt

So did you see how I did that, though, Vicky?

Vicki Cooke

I do.

Kathleen Brandt

You see what I did? Okay, good. So you're going to hopefully get one of their descendants as well as you have your own and you probably have some other cousins, but you all are going to match each other. I'm both Jim and Ellen side where George shouldn't have any of Jim's side.

Vicki Cooke

Okay.

Kathleen Brandt

So your DNA analysis, as I said, you might have to have a professional because we are in deep in the woods with that DNA analysis. So this is not what we would consider a brick wall yet. You have a lot of work to go to because you need to start back at that gate, divide the family and then pull all the birth death, marriage records that you can possibly pull on all of those kids, not the Musgroves. We know that they're not going to help you much, but on all the ones that we know, Ellen actually birth, you also will want to look as Social Security applications. They're supposed to name their parents on it. Now, it is possible no one knows her surname. And every time you order that record, it's almost $25.

Vicki Cooke

Right.

Kathleen Brandt

But you might want to go through and find out because in this case, that is the only way you're going to find them is through one of those children, is the only way you're going to find Ellen. And right now we don't even have a hint. So the other ways to do it, and I have ten, church records.

Every one of those kids were married in a church. I don't know where those church records might be. They might be locally, they might be at the Genealogical Society. They may not exist at all. But this is how we do this kind of research. We have to call everyone and look for everyone whose name shows up anywhere. If we have the names of the ministers on their marriage records, and I've seen about six of them, I think obituaries, the obituaries you're looking at are going to be held probably more locally, not on Newspaper archives, in Newspapers, dot com.But you may wish to engage the genealogical society in the local libraries. They might have vertical files or old newspaper clippings or even indices. So that's a second thing. The third one was the death certificates fourth is birth certificate. Fifth is a Social Security applications that I mentioned that you have to pay for. Right? They might have a few of those online in an index form, but it's the information inside it that you need.

Kathleen Brandt

You're working from the children to find this mother Sixth, marriage records and that's where you find a preacher's. And the ministers. There normally are not family Bibles, but there are midwives.

John Brandt

Is this number seven?

Kathleen Brandt

Number seven, this family Bible. Yes, family Bibles or midwife records, Number eight would be the newspapers and any kind of court application that is noted in the newspapers. Now, we didn't see anything with Jim Carr, and I don't know who he is.

John Brandt

I can promise you I'm not part of that or any research you did on this. I was probably watching the Chiefs parade. Yeah. No, you in the mouse in your pocket.

Kathleen Brandt

And my other psonalities. Vicki, I did not find a marriage record, but I really wasn't looking. But if it was done in that area, it was probably published somewhere. Even though they're African-American. If they actually went to the court, there might have been a court recorder. It's just that it's a little early and they didn't have to actually record anything in 1899 or 1898.

Kathleen Brandt

So again, we go back to the children, were still on number eight newspaper and marriage and court applications. So the children's marriages, however, their applications might have named a parent. Now I saw some, as she just says, her married name of Car, which brings me to a very strange one. Her maiden name might have been Car.

Kathleen Brandt

We don't know where the Car name came from. Well, we do know who Rachel married. We just know nothing about that family. Right. So you'll also have to flesh out Rachel, the mother of Jim. You'll need to flesh out her family and her husband, who also died before 1890. Or he's gone before 1890. He is not in the house with the Beans in the Vans and somebody named Johnson.

Kathleen Brandt

Yeah. Yes. But in the 1890, census is a big hit because they're married about eight years later. And we don't know what Jim did those eight years from 1890 to 1898. What is interesting, though, is the number nine is all about land.

20:00

Vicki Cooke

Okay.

Kathleen Brandt

Jim owns Land is on the 1900 census. So he owns that farm. You want to see where he got that farm from? Was it left to him? Where is there a deed on it? Is his wife's name on that? That would be in the Oklahoma court records. At least it should be. It may, because it's early enough. Might be in Texas with the land division of the land runs and all of that in Texas. Meaning the National Archives in Texas, Right. Number ten, you already touched on that one. That was the Native American rolls. And as I said, be sure to check the rejected ones back. I do see them already on the. Oh, what's the word? I can't think of the word. I'll come back to it. The others, I'll think of it.

Kathleen Brandt

And I didn't even mention divorce records. I don't think they got a divorce because I don't think Ellen was married in the first place. I mean, she might have been married, but we don't know where who she was married to.

Vicki Cooke

Right.

Kathleen Brandt

But that's one of the other ways that we normally will find them in this case. I don't think that applies to you. So any questions on those ten that I mentioned?

Vicki Cooke

No, I just had a thought about, you know, in the past, I thought I should try to follow the kids, too. But I just had a hard time finding any of them, really. I mean, my grandmother, of course, I knew and I knew her twin sister and a couple of the other siblings like Lizzie, I knew of Great Aunt Lizzy, but I never thought that there was a division in the family for different dads, for the kids and grandkids, too.

00;21;53;00 - 00;22;19;07

Kathleen Brandt

So when you're doing this kind of research, especially in African American history or genealogy, to tell you the truth, it applies to everyone. You cannot leave anything unturned because of the way the family records are in the courthouses, the way the family records were or were not recorded. There is. Oh, okay. I have I have to stop. John, just for a second.

Kathleen Brandt

Let me see if I can find.

John Brandt

That this is not good. This is the first time we've actually been in trouble.

Kathleen Brandt

We're not in trouble.

Vicki Cooke

I didn't think so.

John Brandt

We're not in anything. We can't edit it out. Oh, we're out of time now. We're so glad you stop.

Kathleen Brandt

Oh, no. I can't think of this word, and it's driving me crazy. Vicki.

Vicki Cooke

Are you talking about intruder?

Kathleen Brandt

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Go. I kept saying you're not supposed to be there. How did you.

Vicki Cooke

I've seen some intruder rolls.

John Brandt

Oh, okay. So there's an a Native American intruder rule.

Kathleen Brandt

Yes and no. That just means you don't belong to that particular tribe. You're not legally living there. And James Carr had one.

John Brandt

Well done. Well done, Vicky.

Kathleen Brandt

Thank you. Thank you for bailing me out.

Vicki Cooke

Thank you.

Kathleen Brandt

The intruder wrote the 1890 role that James Carr as son. But there's a lot of others over those years Now, remember, every state doesn't have a salvaged 1890 census record, whereas Oklahoma does. Yeah. And so. Exactly. So you'll really want to look at that. But again, don't waste your time looking for Ellen, unless for some reason. There is one that says 1898 and there is a Lizzie and a George with her.

Kathleen Brandt

Now, if you have no questions for me, I just want to go over some next steps. Okay. So the first one to separate that family from the Cars and from the Musgroves The second is to be sure to check out the school records, church records, which we talked about. Now, one of the things I found very interesting is a Rhoda Kramer and this is what you're going to be doing. Also, you're going to pull out those marriage records of those kids. Now, I don't know what your grandmother's name was. It was an Arberta or Alberta with an L?

Vicki Cooke

L Alberta

Kathleen Brandt

Don't be attached to that because I see it a lot times. A r b e r t a. Okay. Well, she was married to Henry Van. She was the daughter of our Ellen. And so I looked at that marriage record that you sent me, but she has some association with a person named Rhody Kramer, who signed that record from Arkansas.

You had a minister named Lee Pugh. 

25:00

Kathleen Brandt

We need to look at Lee Pugh records because he signed more than one of your family members marriage records. And then there's Reed Barker. I have no idea who he is, but you want to look at that. So as John mentioned earlier, that's what we mean by cluster. We don't know where James is between 1890 and 1900, and he has that land by the age of 24. Where did he get it from? That might tell you where he was when he married Ellen or met Ellen. Then I also mentioned the DNA from Georgia, Gus's descendants. And Ellen, by the way, she uses the name Gus in almost all of his school records. The other part is we talked about the rejected. We want to make sure you're looking at that.

Kathleen Brandt

You've seen some in one of the rejected Native American Indian Territory Rolls that we see was for Rachel Bean and her husband Nina Carr.

Vicki Cooke

Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

And you'll want to pull that in. It goes all the way back to Cosby. Who was Jim Carr's grandmother, is a woman who's married to a man by the name of John Bean.

Vicki Cooke

Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

There's a lot on her. She lived through the Civil War. She talked about it. She was interviewed for it. Have you seen those in the interview?

Vicki Cooke

I have seen some of her interviews on the I think it was the pioneers of Oklahoma.

Kathleen Brandt

Oh, it might be. I didn't see that one. So, yes, unscrambling that family on the rejected. Will take time.

Vicki Cooke

Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

So I am going to reinforce one rule for you.

Vicki Cooke

Okay.

Kathleen Brandt

Patience. Don't give up and have a plan. If I will, asking myself the very simple question of what is my great grandmother's maiden name? My next question is what record sets will answer my question for me? And that's why those church in obituaries and death and birth of the children, all of that is so important. Those that I mention, I know that you mentioned someone that might be is Elena Hargrove or someone that is not cited.

Kathleen Brandt

It's almost like someone picked an apple from a tree and decided this was the best one on the tree. But it might be a reason I just didn't see one because we have an exhausted the Indian territory yet. Mr. Funny Guy. Got to have something to say about this, but I'm going to tell you my own issue with my Indian territory family.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. We could not find a lot of them. We know they were there. I can see where they live there. I can see the land. I can see newspaper articles. They were in census records, but I didn't find them or their information. At a certain point they were all in Osawatomie, Kansas is part of Osage and Potawatomi, so it's actually Osawatomie, but we say Osawatomie here in Kansas City.

Kathleen Brandt

They also have an insane asylum. I always say we're in the East Wing.

00;27;48;00 - 00;27;48;08

John Brandt

Yeah.

00;27;48;19 - 00;27;51;29

Vicki Cooke

Well, believe me, I probably have somewhere to go.

00;27;52;10 - 00;28;09;04

Kathleen Brandt

And so every time someone disappears from Oklahoma, I call to the state archives of Kansas, which is in Topeka, who has the cards now? And in my case, literally over a half dozen of our family members are there.

00;28;09;11 - 00;28;09;24

Vicki Cooke

Well.

00;28;10;03 - 00;28;34;12

Kathleen Brandt

Yeah. I mean, even fathers and daughters. So don't rule out some of the odd things that could have happened because we are nowhere in a cemetery. We see her, nowhere named as deceased. And it would have been somewhere between 1920 and 30, I believe. Right, Because he's widowed and 30. Anything else, John, that I am missing?

John Brandt

I don't think so. I think you've got a great list. And Vicki seems so familiar with some of the things you were saying that I don't think she's going to have too much trouble. This should be done by tomorrow afternoon. Yeah.

Vicki Cooke

Kathleen. I did have a question.

John Brandt

Oh, go for it.

Vicki Cooke

I just wondered what the research plan for that. I should have a research plan usually here in there when I'm researching, unfortunately. So where should I start with that research plan.

Kathleen Brandt

I was suggests a book called Professional Genealogy. It's by Elizabeth Schoen Mills, and she gives a great basic on how to create a research plan and why we have it. There are probably other things online, but normally we learn it through conferences or Elizabeth Schoen Mills Professional Genealogy book. And you can get that probably through a library or through a library loan or a Half-Price Bookstore.

30:00

Vicki Cooke

Okay, great.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. So, Vicki, I hope you know about the okay to explore website. I know Oklahoma.

Vicki Cooke

Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

It's a great place to quickly see if you can find birth and death records. I like the way it actually index system so that you can kind of have a quick glance before trying to track back in one of the the databases. The school records are on Family Search they might be on Ancestry. I just use Family Search.

Kathleen Brandt

I know they're there. This was fun fun, fun project..

John Brandt

And are You going to post those 10?

Kathleen Brandt

Yes, I will. I will post the ten on the podcast notes. Yes.

Vicki Cooke

Okay. This has been so enlightening to me. Appreciate it so much.

Kathleen Brandt

Well, thank you, Vicki. I mean, it's been a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun looking at this, actually. I kind of got a little obsessed. I'm not supposed to be solving issues, but I.

John Brandt

She can’t help herself.

Kathleen Brandt

I can't.

John Brandt

Well, thank you, Vicki. It's wonderful to have you stop by. We really appreciate it. And a great question.

Vicki Cooke

Thank you so much, John and Kathleen. I sure appreciate your help.

John Brandt

You're very welcome.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. Let let us know how it goes.

John Brandt

I definitely the updates, definitely the updates.

Kathleen Brandt

Thanks. Enjoy now. Bye bye. Bye.

John Brandt

Well, congratulations. You've made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to Vicki from Snowflake, Arizona for spending some time with us. Thanks to Chewey Chewbacca Brandt, our part time segment producer and full time Jabronie for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hittin’ the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fistknuckle and the Aphids. Watch for their next appearance at the Tyconderoga Discount Bait and Stationery Shop. You can find us on Apple, Spotify and of course, Buzz Sprout. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast. So, stop by our Facebook page at Hittin the Bricks. And how about those CHIEFS?

End Transcript

Running Time: 31:31

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