Ep. 7: Movie Sin List

Alex and Lee discuss their movie sin lists: the classic films they have never seen and recount their most memorable movie-going experiences.

Alex's Article about the AFI List: https://www.allsensesgo.com/classic-cinema/
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Transcript

Lee Pugsley  
Happy May everyone! Welcome to episode seven of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard  
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley  
And we are your two legally blind hosts of this podcast for film lovers of all abilities. Alex, I'm really excited about today's episode because we are going to go through our Sin List. Why don't you tell everyone just exactly what a Sin List is?

Alex Howard  
So a Sin List is a list of movies that we should have seen by now, but we haven't. And so it's considered a sin that we haven't seen them.

Lee Pugsley  
Exactly. These are movies that a lot of cinephiles would probably ostracize us for and say, You guys aren't really true film people. Because we haven't seen these movies. These movies fall in the AFI and IMDb top movie lists. We're also going to answer a listener question at the end. But first, we have a question for each other.

Alex Howard  
Skinamarink is now available on iTunes, with audio description. So I've watched it this past weekend. And it's an experimental film, let's let's be real, there's a very, very loose story. So if you're not into experimental, you're not going to like it. But other than that, I wanted to ask you, how do you feel about emotion being put into audio description? Because I felt like the description was interesting. She had a lot of room to talk, because there's not much dialogue. But at the same time, when the jumpscares did happen, she would be very enthusiastic about what was on screen. And sometimes it was, the music was loud. But sometimes it was just because it was intense. And it kind of took me out of it. It almost made it a little funny. And I prefer it when it's very monotone just telling me what's on screen, not necessarily telling me how to feel. But what's your take on that.

Lee Pugsley  
I think there's a tricky balance between having an audio describer that actually helps you get into the film by putting a slight degree of emotion into what they're saying, but not overdoing it. And I can't recall a movie myself that the audio describer has been so emotive that it took me out of the movie. So I'm actually really curious now to watch Skinamarink with audio description, not because I'm necessarily excited about the movie itself. But based on what you're telling me about the audio description, I'm really interested. I don't want just a monotone audio description person that's like a dog walks across the room and he stops at the desk. But I also don't want someone that's like so expressive that it's like [gasping buoyantly] "A dog walks across the room and stops at the desk!" Something in between is a really good balance.

Alex Howard  
I guess I would agree with that. Yeah. And I think there were other parts of Skinamarink that definitely makes you uncomfortable. And it makes you... Like I had to turn lights on about three quarters of the way through, because there were more than a few jump scares. And I was like, it's unnerving, which I guess is the point of the movie. But then it's also hard because, and even for sighted people, not be able to see what's going on very well. And so as a low vision person, it made it even more frustrating because I kept thinking like, "Is this because of my eyesight or just because it's supposed to be like this?"

Lee Pugsley  
I'm very intrigued now. And I will definitely check out Skinamarink and get back to you on this. But related to that, I was wondering if there are ever times where you feel like an audio describer in a horror movie actually adds something to what's going on. Because I think of a few horror movies that I've seen, I can't really recall titles, but sometimes they'll be like whispering a little bit or their voice will be softer where it's like, [whispering] "He goes down the stairs. And then the door opens," you know. And it's not overdone. And it doesn't take me out of the movie, but because of the way that the audio describer is talking, it enhances my experience. Have you ever had those moments?

Alex Howard  
Not that I can recall. I think if I don't notice it, it's probably a good thing. Because you know, it kept me in the intensity of the scene.

Lee Pugsley  
There's so much subtlety to being an audio describer, I'm starting to gather as I watch more movies. And I would love to talk to some of the people that do audio description to hear their take on what the challenges of that are like.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I think in future episodes we will probably have, hopefully have some narrators on.

Lee Pugsley  
Now, I have a question for you as well, regarding audio description and movies. Since we're talking about classic films today, a lot of which don't have audio description, my question to you is: In the classic movies that you've seen, do you find it easier to follow if they don't have audio description because a lot of the older movies were more dialogue driven, or are you still feeling like you're not able to get a full experience?

Alex Howard  
Um, it's tough, because I am so used to watching things with audio description now that I can't remember the last time I tried to watch like an older movie. I think I tried to watch Maggie, which is a newer movie with it, and it was not, I did not do well. I am a little hesitant to dip in if there's no AD just because I do feel like I'll be missing something. But I would be open to it, especially if I'm watching with someone. Like I watch Hitchcock with my dad. And if there's anything I need to ask him, I will. But you're right, older movies do have less going on, I guess you can say. There is more dialogue. So at times, it might be easier to take in, even if there is not a track for us. 

Lee Pugsley  
And it depends on what the older film is. I mean, you have some war movies and some films that have less dialogue than others. But I guess I'm kind of thinking about like the Jimmy Stewart and Cary Grant movies like the 1940s, and 1950s. And a lot of those movies, were just people talking in a room, so it's a lot easier to follow, even without audio description. That being said, would I prefer that every movie had audio description, so that there was more accessibility for people in the blind and low vision community? Absolutely. But if I have to watch a movie without audio description, it's easier for me to watch an older movie than it is to watch a current movie.

Alex Howard  
I would definitely agree with that. Because it is less, you know, back when they were editing that add on actual film, so you know, it's harder to do fast cuts on actual film, because you're physically cutting the film, rather than on a computer.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, you have a good point. Speaking of these classic films, let's go ahead and jump into our Sin List. And this was actually your idea. So why don't you explain a little bit more about why you wanted to do this?

Alex Howard  
So I know there are certain movies that I haven't seen that it's shocking, and I can't even believe I haven't seen them. And then I was thinking, I'm sure Lee has some. And it mostly stemmed from like, I don't know what Lee's are. So we thought it'd be fun to come into this episode, not tell each other what the lists are for each other and just see, get the natural reaction of, you know, Oh, wow, he hasn't seen this, or Oh, wow, Alex hadn't seen this. And get each other's take on like, do we recommend it to each other, do we not. And then I was thinking, you know, maybe by the end of the year, we'll commit to watching a couple of these and circle back around and talk about them after we watch them. 

Lee Pugsley  
I'm really excited to jump into this. And we pick these movies from the AFI top 100 greatest films of all time, as well as the highest rated 250 movies on IMDb. And one general observation I will make is it was really interesting to see the difference in ranking between where a movie stood on the IMDB list versus the AFI list.

Alex Howard  
Oh, definitely. Sometimes there's a drastic difference. And also, there is an article on All Senses Go that I wrote a few years ago, breaking down the AFI top 100, and which movies have audio description, and which don't. So if you would like to read that article, you can click the link in the description.

Lee Pugsley  
I would venture to say that a good chunk of those movies probably did not have audio description. Is that a correct assumption?

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I think if I remember right, I think it was about 60 or 70% did not. But also, I did this list a few years ago, so it hasn't been updated. I'm sure maybe one or two or three more do, but, you know, a lot of them on AFI list are very old. So it'd be great if we got to the point where all of them did. But I don't know that that's going to be anytime soon. 

Lee Pugsley  
And while there's still a long way to go with the accessibility of films in relation to audio description, I do want to commend studios for going back to some of the movies that never had audio description and starting to describe them. It shows that progress is being made and hopefully will continue to be made as we continue these conversations. 

Alex Howard  
Oh, yeah, one of my favorite things is when an older movie gets released, and you know, they're doing re-releases on 4k or cleaning it up, and it has audio description on the disk, I will always support that, and buy the 4k disc.

Lee Pugsley  
I will support that as well. So yeah, let's go ahead and jump into our list. And do you want to go first and maybe we can just bounce back and forth between the 10 movies that we picked for our lists?

Alex Howard  
So my first movie is number 96 on the IMDB top 250. It won seven Oscars.

Lee Pugsley  
Can I guess what it is?

Alex Howard  
I would love for you to guess what it is. 

Lee Pugsley  
Okay, I'm guessing it's Lawrence of Arabia.

Alex Howard  
That is amazing that you -- I don't know how you guessed that. Yeah, it's Lawrence of Arabia. And it does not have audio description available anywhere. Which is I think one reason why I haven't seen it, but also I think it's like three hours long.

Lee Pugsley  
It is, it's over three hours, I think, which, I want to say it's like three and a half hours.

Alex Howard  
Have you seen it?

Lee Pugsley  
I have not seen it. And the reason I knew that it was number 96 on the IMDB list is because it's also on my list as a movie that I have not seen that people hail as one of the greatest movies of all time. And its spot on the AFI list is number seven, which is crazy that there's such a big difference between number seven on AFI and 96 on IMDb.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I am bummed that it doesn't have audio description. But I'm also like wondering, I might be able to still watch it, because I feel like it is sort of a more dialogue driven... I know, my friend Dan was telling me that it takes place a lot out in the desert. So it is like, well lit. So I feel like I could still give it a shot. But it is a movie, I don't see it on streaming very often.

Lee Pugsley  
Same. I've looked for it a few times on streaming and haven't found it. I'll also be honest and say that the long runtime is a bit of a deterrent, just because we've had so many like three plus hour movies lately.

Alex Howard  
I would agree with that. But I'm also, like, it won the same amount of Oscars as Everything Everywhere. So I'm like, is it to that level? I'm very curious.

Lee Pugsley  
We definitely should watch it by the end of the year, I think, since it's one that's on both of our lists of movies that we want to see that we haven't seen.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, we will see, I'll have to look up if it's streaming anywhere. You said it's on your list, too, right?

Lee Pugsley  
It is on my list as well. But another movie that's on my list is number two on IMDb and AFI for the best movies of all time, or highest rated movies of all time, which is the Godfather, and I haven't seen any of the Godfather movies. I do know that it did win three Academy Awards, though. And it's a movie that I've always wanted to see. But for some reason, I've never taken the time to watch it. And it's also a long movie.

Alex Howard  
I am very surprised. So I have Godfather Part Two on my list. Because I've seen Part One, maybe three times. I actually just saw it last year when I got re-released in Dolby. I went to go see it with my girlfriend. And it's, it's pretty good without audio description. I think there is audio description available, which I'd be curious to see what that sounds like. But it is pretty straightforward. There are some quick things that I had to ask her. But also since I'd seen it before when my eyesight was better, it was, you know, a little easier to cover. I think number, Part Two is number 32 on AFI, and number four on IMDb.

Lee Pugsley  
That's pretty high up there. I have heard that Part Two is really good. And then most people don't care about Part Three.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I've heard mixed things about Part Three. But you know, I'm curious to see it just because it finishes up the story. But also John Cazale is also this is one of his movies. And I-- He's so good. So I'm very curious to see Part Two also.

Lee Pugsley  
Maybe after I watched Part One, then I'll join you for Part Two.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Lee Pugsley  
Now, what other movie is on your list?

Alex Howard  
So one that is very problematic for us, it is number 149 on IMDb. Spirited Away, which I hear it's regarded as one of the best animated movies of all time. And I obviously have not seen it because it is in, is it Japanese? 

Lee Pugsley  
I believe it's Japanese. Yeah. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah. So I have not seen it. I saw Kiki's Delivery Service. I think it was an English dub. When I was a kid, we had a VHS tape of it. So there's probably an English dub for Spirited Away as well. But as, as you know from last episode, animation is a little harder for me to watch anyway. Yeah, I mean, I wish that movie was more accessible. But sadly, it is not.

Lee Pugsley  
I have watched the English dubbed version of Spirited Away when I was younger, and I really enjoyed it. Granted, my vision was better back then. So I was able to take in more of the visuals as well. And it doesn't have audio description now? 

Alex Howard  
No. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah. Hopefully we can make advancements in that area too.

Alex Howard  
Where did you watch it with an English dub? Or was it you know, was it VHS, or...?

Lee Pugsley  
It was DVD? 

Alex Howard  
Okay. So there is one out there then.

Lee Pugsley  
There is one out there. And I would recommend that if you are interested in the movie, it's worth watching in an English dubbed version. On another note of interest. They also did a Spirited Away stage musical that they filmed a few years ago in Tokyo live, and they did a pro shot of it. And it was just released in movie theaters for a Fathom events thing for one night. I did not see it. But I'm glad now that I didn't see it because it had subtitles, but it didn't have any audio description. 

Alex Howard  
Oh, that is interesting. 

Lee Pugsley  
It's unfortunate though, because you know, me being a big theater guy. I really do want to see it. But there's no way that I can fully take it in if there's no dubbing or audio description to read the subtitles. So we'll see what happens with that. I don't really have high hopes for that because it's one of those special event type movies that's a live event. And very rarely on live events that are pro shots do they have audio description.

Alex Howard  
What country did you say the play was in?

Lee Pugsley  
It was filmed in Tokyo live on stage.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, that would be extremely hard to watch. What's another movie on your list? The Godfather is a huge one. What are you going to follow that up with?

Lee Pugsley  
This is probably a little lesser classic but still a movie that everyone talks about. It's Sophie's Choice with Meryl Streep, which is number 91 on the AFI top 100. And I know that Meryl Streep won an Oscar for this movie and that's how usually the only Oscar that that movie won, but it seems like a really interesting story. Have you seen it before?

Alex Howard  
I have not seen it. But I know like the, you know, there's the saying of like, oh, it's like so Sophie's Choice, this decision. Like, I know the basic plot of the movie, but I have never seen this movie either.

Lee Pugsley  
And Meryl Streep plays a Holocaust survivor, which I didn't know that until recently, when I was looking it up.

Alex Howard  
I just found that out right now. I did not know that either. 

Lee Pugsley  
So that makes me more intrigued to want to see it.

Alex Howard  
Do you know who directed that, by any chance? 

Lee Pugsley  
Off the top of my head? No, I do not. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, that is a big one that we are missing. Piggybacking off of that one, Rosemary's Baby is one on my list. And I think it just recently got kicked off IMDb top 250. Because the top 250 goes all the way to the 8.0 ratings, this one had an 8.0. But it's not in the 250. So I don't know what kicked it off. But as a horror fan, this would be a huge movie that I should see. 

Lee Pugsley  
I have never seen that movie. More so, I'm really surprised that you've never seen that movie for the very reason you just mentioned.

Alex Howard  
And supposedly, according to the Audio Description Project, it has audio description on Amazon Prime, so I would love to watch it at some point. And it also has it on iTunes.

Lee Pugsley  
And for those who don't know what the audio description project is, why don't you just explain that a little bit, because it's a really good resource for people to know about.

Alex Howard  
So it's on the ACB website, I do not know what ACB stands for. But if you Google ACB Audio Description Project, it's a website with where it lists literally every movie that is available with audio description, which streaming service it's available on, whether it's on the DVD or wherever. So you can either sort it by streaming service, you can see every title available on Netflix with AD, or you can sort it by alphabetical. So for this list, I pulled up the master list and then I just sorted it. I found it in alphabetical listings to see where it landed.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I use it quite a bit now that you had told me about it. And it's very helpful to know if a movie has audio description. And on a side note, I think that ACB stands for the American Council for the Blind.

Alex Howard  
Yes, I think that is 100% correct.

Lee Pugsley  
So a movie on my list that I believe you've seen that I have not seen is Jaws, which is number 56 on the AFI list, and number 205 on the IMDB list. And I found out that it won three Academy Awards, which I did not know.

Alex Howard  
Wow, that is a big one too. I own the 4k of Jaws, and it looks like it was shot yesterday on 4k. It is awesome. So we should, you should definitely come over and watch that sometime. Maybe for shark week or something. I've seen it a few times. But when I watched it a couple years ago for shark week, when I, after I bought the 4K, I popped it in, it is so good. And I know it doesn't have AD on the, on the disk but it's still, it's a very good movie and it's very iconic. Same with the Godfather, you know, there are so many lines that are from that movie.

Lee Pugsley  
And the iconic theme music of course. 

Alex Howard  
Oh yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
It does look like it has audio description now on Amazon Prime, though. I was looking it up earlier and saw that there was an AD track for it. 

Alex Howard  
Okay, that's very cool. 

Lee Pugsley  
So yeah, I am excited to watch that. And hopefully this year too. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah. I have so much more of a reverence for Jaws after this last time I watched it, it definitely deserves its praise.

Lee Pugsley  
Moving on for you then, what's another movie on your list?

Alex Howard  
The next one for me is the Deer Hunter, which I know might be a little lesser known for people who aren't super into film. But it's, I think it was Francis Ford Coppola, I think? But no, it's one that I've been wanting to see for a very, very long time. And I just haven't gotten around to it. I feel like it also has a long runtime, but I'm not sure. But one of the big reasons I haven't seen it is because it's just never, I never see it streaming anywhere. So it's not like I'm searching for it. But you know, when you're scrolling through Netflix, I never see it pop up as one of the titles.

Lee Pugsley  
That's a movie that is not on my list, but I've heard about it for a long time and have always intended to see it. I've just never made the effort to really seek it out.

Alex Howard  
It actually does have audio description on Prime, and it's the AFI number 53, and the IMDB number 191, which is a big difference.

Lee Pugsley  
Very big difference indeed.

Alex Howard  
So yeah, what's the next one for you, Lee?

Lee Pugsley  
One of the other movies on my list is Some Like It Hot, which is number 22 on the AFI list and number 129 on IMDb. I have been a big Marilyn Monroe fan for a while I know that she's in the movie and I have heard a lot of good things about it. What kind of reignited my interest in it is Some Like It Hot the musical just opened recently on Broadway so it's kind of made me pay more attention to looking into watching that film. There is no audio description for it currently, but it's one of those iconic Marilyn Monroe movies that a lot of people talk about. 

Alex Howard  
So weirdly, I've seen two movies about Marilyn Monroe, but I've never seen a Marilyn Monroe movie. What are some of your favorite Marilyn Monroe movies? 

Lee Pugsley  
The one that comes to mind is, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. That's probably my favorite one of hers. Also, probably because it's a musical too.

Alex Howard  
See this is a big part of cinema history that I'm missing, is all the Marilyn Monroe stuff.

Lee Pugsley  
There's a fair amount of Marilyn Monroe movies that I haven't seen as well. But I do want to check out more of her catalogue. And what's another movie on your list?

Alex Howard  
So the next one, it's a-- I mean, a pretty big one for me, is Pan's Labyrinth, which is number 139 on IMDb. And of course, there's no audio description. I would say it's a modern classic. But I mean, I can always, you know, visualize all the monsters in it. I remember when it was at the Oscars, it won tons of awards. It's very highly regarded and I, there's no way I can watch it. I don't even know if there's a dub.

Lee Pugsley  
I don't recall there being a dub. I have seen it once. And I enjoyed it from what I was able to take in. But once again, there was no audio description or dubbing when I watched it and it is kind of dark. So I definitely missed out on a chunk of the full experience. I still liked it though.

Alex Howard  
I was reading my list to my girlfriend before we recorded, and she was shocked that I said Pan's Labyrinth. She was like, "I love that movie." And she was like, "We should watch it. And you know, I can describe some things too." But if there's no English dub, that's the least that I need.

Lee Pugsley  
Totally understandable. Because it's a modern classic too, I'm actually really surprised they haven't got a dubbed version of it or an audio description version of it yet.

Alex Howard  
Weirdly, I almost feel like dubs are less common now. I don't know if you find that. It's almost like they want to preserve the way the film was meant to be seen. So they don't, like, Roma like...

Lee Pugsley  
No, there is no English dub for Roma, because I would have watched that. 

Alex Howard  
I feel like a lot of the modern foreign movies, they try and keep it in the language they're in to preserve what the director's vision was, which I appreciate. But then it kind of doesn't include people who can't read the subtitles. 

Lee Pugsley  
Agreed I can respect it, and honestly, I would prefer to watch a movie in its original language because I think you do get more of the full experience. However, for people like you and me and other people in the blind or low vision community, that's just not an option.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And I know, I don't know how you're doing your list. I'm saving my heavy hitters for the end. I don't know if you... Did you start with your heavy hitters?

Lee Pugsley  
I'm kind of just like going all around, honestly. And I just decided to randomize my list. So speaking of that, another movie on my list is City Lights, which is a Charlie Chaplin silent film that he actually directed. And it's number 11 on the AFI list, and number 51 on the IMDB list.

Alex Howard  
I've heard this title and I knew nothing about it.

Lee Pugsley  
I know a little bit about Charlie Chaplin's life, and I just need to investigate more of his catalogue because people always talk about that movie. Interesting, though, it was a movie that was received in a mixed way at the time because they were just starting to get into pictures with sound and moving away from the silent film era.

Alex Howard  
Have you ever seen a silent movie before? 

Lee Pugsley  
When I was a kid, I used to go to the library and rent movies. And some of them were silent films. Once again, it was easier for me to see at the time, and because they were in black and white -- I know we've talked about this before on the podcast -- the contrast was good for me to be able to pick up on the physicality of what was going on.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I've never seen a silent movie. I think I've just, I've always assumed that it would be too hard for me to watch. But maybe I should, maybe I should try one. But I feel like it might be really difficult.

Lee Pugsley  
In terms of accessibility, that would be extremely helpful to have audio description for any silent film. And honestly, probably the only way that we could enjoy those movies now. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah. 

Lee Pugsley  
And moving forward with you. What's next on your list?

Alex Howard  
Okay, I feel like now we're starting with pretty heavy hitters now. So I have the Two Towers and The Return of the King. Which I mean, I'm a huge nerd, but I feel like this is my one sin for the nerd part of myself. I've seen Fellowship like three times. I've never watched the other ones. And I feel like one of the big deterrents for me, I've you know, I remember when Two Towers was at the Oscars and I saw the clips and it was this giant battle in the dark. And I kind of, I feel like I always felt like it would be hard to follow that battle. So not having audio description did deter for a while, but I know now it has AD on HBO Max. So I've been meaning to jump on there and watch them but once again, they're like two and a half hours. So I need a you know, a good night where I'm like, I got nothing going on. Let's just dive in.

Lee Pugsley  
I would say that I would consider it a sin that you haven't seen The Two Towers and Return of the King, because they are absolutely cinematic masterpieces. And I recently just rewatched all three of those movies Fellowship, Two Towers and Return of the King on HBO Max two weeks ago. And I was reminded of how beautiful and well done these movies are. And just the way that they seamlessly tell a story in such an epic way. It was also very helpful for me to watch these movies again, with audio description. I'd only seen them once before, and I didn't have audio description when I saw them before. So I got so much more out of it, it was a lot easier for me to keep track of the characters and the battle scenes with audio description. Highly recommend that you check those out on HBO Max with AD.

Alex Howard  
Did you read the books before? Or were you...? Did you get really into it just from the movie? Because I know, it's a huge thing. And I'm also like, am I gonna love it as much as everyone else just from watching the movies and not reading the book?

Lee Pugsley  
I've tried reading Fellowship of the Ring like five times, I've only been able to get through the first 100 pages each time. It's dense, and way different than reading Harry Potter, which is much more accessible in its text. I don't think you need to read the Lord of the Rings books in order to enjoy the movies.

Alex Howard  
Sweet. Yeah, I definitely need to commit to watching these. I probably should rewatch Fellowship too, because it's been a few years.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, Alex, you should definitely get on that rewatch of Fellowship. It's a wonderful movie. And I think that you'll be surprised at just how good it is once you give it a rewatch. So moving on, on my list. The next movie that I haven't seen that I should see is All About Eve, which is number 28 on the AFI top 100. And number 131 on the IMDB list. I really don't know a whole lot about this movie, other than everyone talks about it, and it won six Academy Awards. And I know it has something to do with show business and one actress wanting to steal another actress's role.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I actually haven't seen that one either. It's funny. So I made a list of 10 for this episode. Then I made another list of another 12 if we want to do this again later, and All About Eve was on my my secondary list.

Lee Pugsley  
Oh, okay. Um, yeah, maybe we will do this again, sometime, I think it would be really fun to see what other movies are on your secondary list.

Alex Howard  
And just a little behind the scenes look for the listeners. It's always very impressive that Lee comes in, all the research that we have to do for this podcast, I have on a note on my phone that I'm reading from. Lee has all of these numbers memorized. It's crazy. He knows what number it is on AFI, what number it is on IMDb, off the top of his head. It's impressive.

Lee Pugsley  
And from a visual point of view, the reason that I memorize these numbers or kind of any kind of facts or figures is because it's a lot easier for me to memorize them, than rely on reading them on my phone, because my visibility is not such that I can do that. And I would have to use VoiceOver which would very much interrupt this podcast.

Alex Howard  
That's very true. Yeah, I have to zoom in on my phone to read them. But yeah, number three on my list. These last three are huge sins for me. So my number three is Apocalypse Now, which is number 30 on AFI, and number 53 on IMDb top 250. And there is no audio description available. So I bought a four or five disc set of Apocalypse Now, which I normally don't buy movies that don't have audio description, but it was like 10 bucks for four discs. And it's like all the cuts that are available. And so I'm hoping to watch it at some point with someone who can describe for me because I know war movies are usually very quick cut, very hard to tell what's going on, intentionally. And so I feel like I need to watch it with someone. But I know how iconic this movie is. So I wanted to own it. But I do still need to watch it. Have you seen Apocalypse Now, Lee?

Lee Pugsley  
I saw it a while ago. And I remember really liking it. It's been quite a few years and I would definitely be open to doing a rewatch of that with you even though it doesn't have audio description.

Alex Howard  
Which cut did you see? Do you remember? I know there's Redux. I know there's the final cut. I know there's the theatrical? 

Lee Pugsley  
I don't know off the top of my head. I'm guessing it was the theatrical cut. It is a really good movie. And yeah, it makes me want to watch it now that you're talking about it.

Alex Howard  
Is the hype worth it? Because I know it's put on such a pedestal. Does it deserve to be on that pedestal from what you remember?

Lee Pugsley  
It's a solid movie. Maybe the hype sometimes gets to be a little much. But it definitely has earned its credibility in the film community and I understand why it has reached the heights that it has.

Alex Howard  
So what's next on your list?

Lee Pugsley  
So next movie on my list is Network, which is number 64 on the AFI list and number 224 on the IMDB list. And an interesting fact about this movie is it actually won three Academy Awards for acting. Best Actor, Best Actress, and... I think it was Best Supporting Actress, but I'm not 100% sure. But that's pretty crazy. It's kind of like Everything Everywhere this year that won three Oscars for acting as well.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, this is another one that was on my secondary list or a potential next time. But yeah, my brother loves this movie. My parents both worked in news. So I feel like I should have seen this movie by now. But I haven't.

Lee Pugsley  
In acting class, I've actually done a few scenes from it at various times. So I have a little bit of familiarity with certain moments in the movie, but I still don't know the full story.

Alex Howard  
It is about a newsroom, right?

Lee Pugsley  
It is about a newsroom. Yeah. And I've wanted to watch it for years. I don't know why it's taken me so long to still not watch it.

Alex Howard  
Do you know if it has audio description?

Lee Pugsley  
It does not have audio description, unfortunately. What I gather from, at least the scripts I've worked within it, it seems like a very dialogue driven movie. So it would be great if it had audio description, but it also seems like a movie that we could follow reasonably well by just listening and taking in the dialogue.

Alex Howard  
Okay, yeah, I definitely need to check it out. I might even watch it with my parents since they you know, worked in news. And I always love watching newsroom things with them to see how accurate the portrayal is. 

Lee Pugsley  
That would be a cool perspective. You should definitely do that. What's next on your list? I believe you're at number two now. Right?

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so this one, I have no excuse for not watching it. It has audio description in many places. It was number 15 on AFI, and number 90 on IMDb, which I'm shocked it's that low. It's 2001 A Space Odyssey. And I own this on 4k with audio description on the disk. And I still haven't watched it. This is one I promise I will watch by the end of the year. And we will talk about it. I've seen the beginning 20 minutes, the iconic thing with the caveman. I've seen that about three times. We studied it in film class. I think even Music and Film I took my first semester in film school. And we talked a lot about it there. But I haven't seen the rest of the movie.

Lee Pugsley  
So, some people are going to consider this a sin. I have seen this movie when I was younger. And I wasn't really into it. I kind of thought it was a little boring for lack of a better term. Granted over the years, my tastes in cinema have changed and I've become more open minded than I used to be. So perhaps on a rewatch I would get more out of it and find more to appreciate about it. We'll see. But yeah, I, it doesn't leave a strong impression with me actually.

Alex Howard  
Okay, because I know I had a Kubrick set for a while like I had The Shining Clockwork Orange, and 2001. And I watched A Clockwork Orange for the first time last year. And I had seen the beginning of that and it grossed me out. So I stopped. But this time, I was like, You know what, just watch the whole thing. And I did and it was really good. And so I'm hoping I will feel the same about 2001. But yeah, there's literally audio description on the disk. I think it's on HBO Max as well.

Lee Pugsley  
Out of your Kubrick collection, I've seen The Shining and I haven't seen Clockwork Orange. Which I need to watch that. That almost made my cut for movies I should watch that I haven't.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I think, I don't know if that has AD, but 2001 is very accessible pretty much everywhere.

Lee Pugsley  
I will be willing to give that a rewatch with audio description because the first time I watched it, it didn't have any.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, especially because the first, you know, the first 20 minutes is so iconic. And there's almost no dialogue with the caveman, and Barbie spoofed the -- the Barbie trailer spoofed the beginning of 2001. So I'd really be curious how they describe all that. 

Lee Pugsley  
Right. 

Alex Howard  
But yeah, what's your next one

Lee Pugsley  
Next movie on my list is Ben Hur, which is surprisingly number 100 on the AFI list, and number 183 on the IMDB list. And a piece of trivia, it won 11 Academy Awards, which tied it for most Oscars won, along with Titanic and Lord of the Rings: Return of the King. It's a movie that I know some information about and I know that there's like chariots in it and everything, but I've never seen it and I don't even think I've seen very many clips from it either.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I've never seen it either. I know the remake bombed at the box office a few years ago. But it's weird. Like I've heard of it. I don't have much interest in watching it. I think, I watched Gladiator like in college, and I was kind of underwhelmed because it had been built up so much. And I feel like there are those movies where certain themes have been used in other movies that came after it. And they've almost become tropes. And I feel like Gladiator is one of those movies where this was the first movie to do it. And yet it wasn't to me because I'd seen all the other ones that had done it. So it didn't seem very original to me when I watched it, and I feel like Ben Hur might be the same thing. But I mean who knows. It's also, do you know what year it came out? It's pretty old, I think.

Lee Pugsley  
It is pretty old. I want to say it was like 1950s or 60s. I'm think it was in the 60s. But I haven't looked up the year. Or it's not embedded in my brain.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I probably should see it. But that's one that I'm like, you know, it's near the bottom of my to do list, I think.

Lee Pugsley  
The long runtime does deter me a little bit, because it's one of those epic movies, that's over three hours as well. And I will go into it with moderate expectations because of all of the acclaim and hype around that movie through the years. So I'm expecting to appreciate it, but maybe not necessarily, like love it as much as other people.

Alex Howard  
Yeah. And I think the long run time is a theme with a lot of ours lately, like Apocalypse Now has a long run time. 2001 has a long run time. And my next one has a really long run time as well.

Lee Pugsley  
Which is?

Alex Howard  
So this is AFI number six in IMDb number 12. Can you guess what this is?

Lee Pugsley  
I cannot. I'm sure I considered putting it on my list as well.

Alex Howard  
So there's no audio description. It's Gone with the Wind. 

Lee Pugsley  
Oh, I should have known that. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I've never seen this. I love Casablanca. And I used to get them mixed up. I still do sometimes. Because I don't know, they're both, you know, iconic movies, male and female leads. But yeah, I've never seen Gone With the Wind. I know it got a little bit of blowback with the subject matter. And Warner Brothers has put a disclaimer before it on HBO Max now, but I feel like I need to see this at some point. 

Lee Pugsley  
You do need to see it. Considering the context of the time it came out and where film was at that time, I think Gone With the Wind is a cinematic masterpiece. In terms of acting, the way it tells a story, the vibrancy of the Technicolor, and it really just hits a lot more than I expected it to. I watched it a few years ago. And I expected to be really bored by it. Because once again, it's a super long movie. And I was really engaged the whole way through, way more than I thought I would be.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, it won eight Oscars, which is one more than Everything Everywhere won. So that's great that you liked it. I'm encouraged that you had a good time with it. So I'm hoping I will enjoy it as well.

Lee Pugsley  
Do you know if it has audio description?

Alex Howard  
I don't believe it does. According to my research, it does not. But I might be wrong on that. But according to the Audit Description Project, it was not on there.

Lee Pugsley  
I watched it without audio description. So it's likely they haven't gone back in and added it yet.

Alex Howard  
Did you feel like you were missing things? Or no?

Lee Pugsley  
I felt like I got the full picture, or as full of picture as you can get being visually impaired. But I didn't feel like I was missing anything major.

Alex Howard  
Okay. So what is the last one for you?

Lee Pugsley  
The last movie for me, which a lot of people would consider this blasphemy that I haven't seen it, is Rocky, which is number 57 on the AFI list and number 212 on the IMDB list. I haven't seen any of the Rocky movies actually. I've seen all of the Creed movies, but none of the Rocky movies.

Alex Howard  
Okay, Rocky is one that is awesome. I know it has audio description on Prime, I think 

Lee Pugsley  
Correct. 

Alex Howard  
And I highly recommend you watch it. It is crazy that, I was talking about before, sometimes there's a movie that is iconic that other movies have taken after and then you watch it you're like, Oh, this is a trope now for me. I feel like Rocky has the potential to be that, because there have been so many boxing movies that have come after it. But it's done so well that it stands on its own. Like the fight scene, especially in Rocky, almost all the Rocky movies are, they're great.

Lee Pugsley  
Funny enough, my only exposure to Rocky is the Broadway musical that came out around 2014 or 2015. I know the soundtrack to that decently well. And I've watched a lot of clips from it. So I have an idea of the story and the characters. And I know the musical, but I don't know the movie.

Alex Howard  
Yes, I highly recommend you watch that. So if you were to pick two from your list that you would commit to watching by the end of the year, and we can circle back once we -- maybe we'll do an episode towards the end of the year where we come back and talk about the ones that we watched... Which two on your list which you commit to watching? 

Lee Pugsley  
The two movies I will commit to watching are Rocky and Jaws, because they're both really iconic films in film culture, but also in mainstream pop culture. And they have audio description. So those will be my picks that I'll commit to watching and we'll circle back around to these before the end of the year. What about you, what two movies do you want to commit to watching from your list?

Alex Howard  
Definitely 2001. Because I own that with AD and then I'm going to say I will at least watch The Two Towers. The Two Towers and Return of the King? That's three 3 hour movies, but I will definitely commit to at least the Two Towers and 2001. 

Lee Pugsley  
I like that. And what's going to happen after you watch The Two Towers is you're going to be so engaged that there's no possible way that you cannot watch Return of the King. You're just going to jump right into it.

Alex Howard  
Nice. And yeah, well, we'll come back, we'll talk about those and -- which will be great, because you've seen both the ones that I have on my list, and I've seen both the ones that you have in your list, so it'll work out.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So as we kind of like bring things to a close, we have a listener question we got in, correct? 

Alex Howard  
Yeah. From your friend, Evan right? 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah. Which thanks for listening, Evan, thanks for your support and being one of our loyal listeners.

Alex Howard  
So the question was asking about our favorite theater experience. So I know we talked about our blind movie experience last episode, but surprisingly, we didn't touch on what our favorite experiences have been for a movie specifically. So do you want to go first?

Lee Pugsley  
Sure. And I think the question, if I remember specifically was like, "What is your most memorable / enthusiastic movie going experience?" And there is one experience that comes to mind very clearly for me. It was when I saw the movie adaptation of Rent, the Broadway musical. When Rent came out, I went with a few of my friends to one of those discount theaters where you used to pay like $3, or whatever, for a movie after it left the first run theatres. And so it was just our group of friends. And then there was another group of people that were sitting across the aisle from us. But as soon as the movie started, we all just started singing along full voice with the first song, and then that kind of carried over into every other song. And for context, for those that are unfamiliar with Rent, it is an entirely sung-through movie, there's very, very little dialogue. So all of us were big Rent fans, we knew the musical well. And then we all started singing along to all the songs, full voice, and people started doing shadow acting, which is kind of like what they do with the Rocky Horror Picture Show where there's a cast below the screen that acts out what's happening on screen. So then we all started taking turns going up in front of the screen and acting out what was going on above us on the screen. And it just became this whole, like, big, fun, movie-going experience. And there was one number where there were like 16 of us at the front of the theater that were just like singing at the top of our lungs and dancing and belting everything out. And it was one of the greatest movie-going experiences of my life.

Alex Howard  
That's awesome. I could not imagine a theater breaking out into song. I feel like if I were in that theater, I would almost be like, Hey, I haven't seen this. I would like to experience this, like, what are they saying? But I -- That's awesome that almost everyone in the theater was singing with you guys. That's great.

Lee Pugsley  
Funny that you mentioned that because there was only one guy in the theater who was not a part of either of the groups of people that were watching the movie that night. And when we started singing, he was like, "Hey, can you guys please be quiet. I've never seen this movie." And we kind of felt bad about that. But we're also like, we'll give you, we'll each give you $3 so we can have this experience. And I don't even know what happened. I don't know if he walked out or I would have walked out if I were him. So I feel bad that it ruined his experience. But the sacrifice was worth it.

Alex Howard  
So I know in Evan's email, he mentioned The Mist. I think he said he was at Universal and then he went to see it with a group and everyone was super into it when he went to see it. Which The Mist as a movie, I think it's one of the greatest endings of all time. I won't spoil it here. It is an amazing ending, even Stephen King -- it's based on Stephen King book -- Stephen King said he likes that ending better than the book ending. Which, it is a very polarizing ending too. I know one of my exes, that was always something we disagreed on. She hated the ending of The Mist, and I love it. Have you seen it, Lee?

Lee Pugsley  
I haven't seen The Mist. I should though.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, it's great. So my favorite theater experience... I have a couple, but the first one that comes to mind is A Quiet Place. Which is funny that yours is a musical and mine is a horror. 

Lee Pugsley  
It's very on brand for both of us, though. 

Alex Howard  
Oh, definitely. Yeah, I just, I remember watching A Quiet Place. I feel like it was an employee screening because I think I worked at AMC at the time, but it was just so quiet. And it's crazy. You can hear people crunching their popcorn. And you're very self conscious about making noise yourself. Because it's just like, the monsters are attracted to noise. So that movie built the tension so well that it was just so palpable in the theater, the tension, it was great.

Lee Pugsley  
I love that. I remember how quiet the theater was during my viewing of A Quiet Place as well. And I had audio description and I was worried that I was going to ruin other people's experience because they were going to hear it during moments of dead silence.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, it's funny. I don't think I used it for the first one. I definitely use it for the second one. And I didn't have as much of a, a vibrant experience as with the first one, but I think it might have just been the crowd. I don't know how, honestly, I watched the first one without it. And then another few that I have. I mean, I remember watching the first Iron Man. I was sitting in pretty much the front row, like the front-front row, because we were late. And we were over on the side. And I still remember so vividly Nick Fury saying the Avengers Initiative. And it was just like, what? This is starting something historic. And you know, you could just feel it in the crowd. Definitely the first Avengers movie as well. I went after finishing my senior project in college, we drove as a group to go see it. And I think Free Guy is the most recent one that I remember. Just, I went by myself to see it, it was just so much fun. And the crowd, we just had a great time watching it, and the energy in there, even though I was by myself, just made for a really fun experience.

Lee Pugsley  
Those are all really awesome and sound like really fun experiences. So two more that come to mind for me, as you're talking, it's kind of like stirring up my memory bank. One of them is, once again on brand for me, is a musical. It's The Greatest Showmen, they did a sing along version of it, where you actually had the lyrics on the screen. And the whole audience was singing along to it. The difference I guess between that and my Rent experience is, you were actually permitted to sing along without ruining the movie. And everyone that was there was super into it. And we applauded after every musical number. And we were cheering for characters yelling at characters on screen. And when they were making really dumb choices or choices that we didn't want them to make. And it was just a really fun communal experience. And I think everyone in the audience had seen The Greatest Showmen multiple times. And then one of the other probably greatest experiences was watching the world premiere showing of The Force Awakens. This was the same screening that like the cast and crew watched. And granted we were in the Chinese Theater, and they were watching it in the Dolby Theater. So we weren't sitting with them. But we were still watching it at the same time that they were. And this was after like the red carpet premiere and everything and there was like a lot of hype for it. And there were other celebrities in our audience and everything. And just the energy was so high because it was like the reawakening of the Star Wars franchise again, and before the fatigue happened. So it was just such an magical experience to be like, I can't believe I'm here for this moment and experiencing this moment with these people.

Alex Howard  
Oh, yeah, there are definitely those historical height building, like The Force Awakens, Avengers, those like blockbuster movies where you're like looking forward to it for months, and it's a pop culture event. And I saw Return of the Jedi last night at the rerelease. And just being there, like seeing the scroll, the Star Wars, you know, iconic title intro on the big screen again. I was like, wow, I haven't done this since 2019. I like, I missed this. So I definitely, for me, the fatigue is gone. I want Star Wars movies back in theaters again. But another -- it wasn't a movie theater experience -- but watching La La Land, live at the Hollywood Bowl, I think was very similar to what you're talking about. Just, I feel like musicals have a certain energy that go with them. And it's always amazing. 

Lee Pugsley  
I'm so jealous you got to see La La Land at the Hollywood Bowl. I really, really wanted to see it. And at the time tickets were just too expensive for my budget, and I regret not going to that.

Alex Howard  
Oh yeah, I was like crying. It was great. But yeah, I think also we have a... So, right now we have the transcriptions up for all the episodes, and All Senses Go is bringing us the transcriptions. So I'd like to shout out to Matt and his company All Senses Go and thank him for helping us out with transcriptions. They will be doing that for every episode from now on.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, super exciting. We're just so happy that we can find other ways to make this podcast accessibility to people of all abilities. And if you have any other questions or comments or anything once again, feel free to email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. That's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. If you have a film-related question or a vision-related question or basically any question, please don't hesitate to reach out. We love connecting with our listeners.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, anything about audio description or movies, feel free. Also follow us on Instagram @DarkRoomFilmCast and you can also message us on there.

Lee Pugsley  
Exactly. And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening everyone. We will see you back here next time in The Dark Room.

Alex Howard  
Take care guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai