Ep. 21: Up Close with Ashley Eakin, Disabled Director/Writer

Alex and Lee chat with Ashley Eakin, a disabled director and writer, who has worked on projects for Netflix, Disney+, and Apple TV+. Ashley recounts her journey into Hollywood, and what navigating her disability has looked like, as well as how her experiences have influenced her storytelling. She also discusses her experiences utilizing audio description on her projects.

Ashley's Instagram: @asheakin
Forgive Us Our Trespasses: https://www.netflix.com/title/81320168

Audio Description Project: https://adp.acb.org/  
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Transcript

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Lee Pugsley  
Happy holidays, everyone and welcome back to Episode 21 of The Dark Room, where two blind cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard  
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley  
And this is a podcast for film lovers of all abilities, hosted by two legally blind guys. Today, we have a very special guest, and Alex, I'll pass it to you so you can introduce our guest.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so today we have Ashley Eakin. She is a disabled writer/director. I met her a couple of times at different panels. And then we were also on a bunch of panels together. But she's done projects with Netflix, and Disney Plus. How are you doing, Ashley?

Ashley Eakin  
I'm doing good. Thanks for having me here.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, no, thank you. And I think we want to start off just like about your journey of being a disabled director and breaking into the industry and all of that.

Ashley Eakin  
I started out going to school for journalism. I, you know, growing up, I liked movies, and I would make movies with my friends. But I never really thought about myself as like a filmmaker. I think, you know, I grew up in Nebraska. And so Hollywood felt very far away. And I just kind of, you know, didn't think I could see someone like myself, you know, someone with a physical visible disability, as a director. And so I went into journalism, because it's writing, it's behind the scenes, you know, anyone can be a writer. And I pursued four years of school, doing writing. And by my senior year, I was taking a Minor class in Film. And I actually had a guy come in as a speaker, and he had a paralyzed arm. And he was a film distributor living in LA. And it was the first time I ever saw someone who had some type of different body or disability. And it really kind of unlocked a part of my brain to think like, maybe there is a space for me. You know, maybe I could do something in this world. And I remember walking out of that class, and being really scared because I knew the film industry is so rocky that I didn't know if I'd ever make money. I was like, I don't really know the path. But I know I have to do this. And I remember, like, I called my parents and I was like, "I'm having a whole career change, I'm going a different direction." So I did that, you know, and I wanted to pursue screenwriting, and I started getting applications ready to go to grad school. And when I was talking to a bunch of different people about it, they were like, "Unless you have the money upfront to go to grad school, just go straight into the industry. Because you're going to be in debt, you know, if you take out a bunch of loans, and you know, you just don't know this, this career doesn't pay off, like law school, or being a doctor does." So they're like, "You don't even need, you know, a Master's. Just go and start working." And so I kind of just started trying to make connections and telling everyone about what I wanted to do. And I actually found my first like, internship situation with a friend from college. His mom was a script supervisor in Albuquerque, because there was a very big kind of like film industry. In Albuquerque, there still is. So I went and lived out there for eight months. And that's where I got my first like, intern job on a movie set and a PA job. I worked on this movie called I'm in Love with a Church Girl. And I was an intern PA, I don't think I got paid for that one. But it was my first taste of like, making a movie. You know, it was like the big lights, 12 hour days, there was like a scene where someone broke into a car. It was just kind of big and, and I loved it. And I was like, this is absolutely what I want to do. And from there, I just started trying to climb the industry ladder. I mean, that was 2010 -- 2009, 2010. And since then, you know, I've worked in many different capacities, I kind of started in like reality TV, some of my bigger jobs. Like I got a job working on America's Next Top Model as an assistant to the guy who created it with Tyra Banks, and did that for two years. You know, he was also producing some some scripted movies. And so that was really cool to kind of see how that process was going. But Top Model was kind of the main thing that they were working on. And so I realized that I don't really want to work in reality TV, I want to work in scripted films and television. And so I switched and I actually got a job in the writers office of a show called The Night Shift. It was on NBC. It was a medical drama. It was their very first season. And it was kind of like a demotion from my previous job because I was like the executive assistant to like a high level person and then this job was actually like a PA for the writers office. And I would like get people lunch and print scripts and do that type of stuff. And I took that demotion because I knew, like, I really wanted to work in the scripted world, you know. And I even at Top Model was going to get promoted to become like a producer, associate producer on the show. And I was like, this just isn't the direction that I want to go. And so I kind of made that hard decision to take that demotion. But it was really cool, because I got to work with all these different writers, you know, kind of start to learn how that world works. And from there, I ended up, it was a first season show, so they went on hiatus, and you know, had to find another job when the job, when things go on hiatus. And I ended up getting a job working at Beacon Pictures, a production company. I was the assistant to the president there. And, you know, it was really interesting, because my whole kind of career thus far, I kind of had a really interesting relationship with my disability where I would kind of ignore that it existed. And you know, it's visible, people can see it, and there would be really uncomfortable times that would kind of arise where either co workers would ask about it, or when I was getting hired, people would ask about it. And I didn't really know how to talk about it without becoming really insecure, or emotional, and not be able to, like speak up when I needed certain things. You know, even coming up as a PA, I've had over 28, almost 30 surgeries on my body and like me standing for long periods of time, can be really exhausting. And as a PA, I would just kind of push through it and like, really grind my body down because they there was like a rule of no sitting. You know, and it's been really fascinating to kind of unpack and learn how our sets are so militant, and like the history of why sets are the way they are. And that's a whole other thing I won't get into. But, you know, up until this point of working for this woman, I really wouldn't talk about my disability. But I decided at this point, like, I'm just gonna do it because I started feeling so uncomfortable that I was like, maybe it's an elephant in the room, and I'll just talk about it. And so I actually shared in my interview with her, like, you know, "I have this rare bone disease. And, you know, sometimes I have to get surgeries throughout the year," you know, but I tried to downplay it as much as I could. And she was really great and amazing, and was like, "I actually have a disabled son." And so it was this cool connection that we had together. And then moving forward, you know, I felt more comfortable talking about my disability. But-- so then after that I was working at this production company still thinking that I wanted to go into screenwriting. And this idea of directing actually started coming back to me. And you know, at the time, it was hard, because there wasn't even a ton of female directors, you know, it was, I think, you know, it just wasn't in the mainstream like it is now, you know, there definitely were female directors, but it wasn't the norm. And so seeing yourself as a director, especially a disabled director... I didn't know anyone who had a disability who was a director. And so it took a lot of courage to be like, "I actually want to pursue this." And some great mentors were like, "You have to direct a short, like, do something, make something. You don't know if you want to be a director unless you actually make something." And so I ended up directing a short film called Exo, and I wrote it myself and directed it. And it was, you know, it's kind of a dark, experimental piece, but I loved the entire process of it. And I was like, this is absolutely what I want to do. But I really need to learn from a director. Like I still don't really know what a director does. Like, I know when they're on set, they say "action." You know, I knew like the things from being around set, but I didn't know like, how do they get their jobs? What are-- how does this work in this industry? And so I took about five months to try and find a director's assistant job, it's like very coveted, you know. And at that point, I had four years experience-- over four years of being an assistant to other people. So I was-- I used all that experience, and I kept applying. It was really hard. And I ended up getting an interview with Jon Chu. And I-- it was really great first interview. And then it was about two to three weeks and I didn't hear back. And I was like, very sad, but I was also trying to convince myself that like, I didn't want the job anyways, and you know, just doing those coping mechanisms. But I ended up getting a call to come in and do the second interview on a Friday and they said "We'd love for you to come in for a second interview, but it'll be on Monday and we want you to read this book Crazy Rich Asians and tell us how to make it into a movie. By Monday." I was like, "Oh, okay." Um, and I did it. You know, I devoured the book and went in on that. It was like a Monday or Tuesday. And brought, you know, a piece of paper that had all my ideas and thoughts ,and went over them with John. And it was just really good energy. And I met his girlfriend, who's now his wife. And it was great. And he ended up hiring me. And it was the job that really, like, changed my entire life. Because it's where I learned everything I know about directing. And, you know, I got to be on the whole trajectory of Crazy Rich Asians. And it was an amazing experience. So I went to Malaysia and Singapore, I was with the crew and shooting, and I sat next to John every day, and, you know, helped with the prep and post. And I just got to see like, what does it mean to make a movie from start to finish? And, and will also, you know, working for him, he was also pitching on other projects and developing other things. He shot a pilot while I was working for him. So I really just got to see so many different experiences. And John was really great, where he would bring his assistant in like the room with him, in these meetings and pitches, and I got to just see and absorb everything. So it was a really cool experience. And then, you know, by the time Crazy Rich Asians came out, I had worked for him for two and a half years. And he was like, you know, "If you want to be a director, you have to like, quit." He's like, "You have to go start making stuff." He's like, "The longer you're in my world, just as an assistant," he's like, "you can't really move up, because I'm the director," you know. So he's like, "You gotta go start, you know, trying to raise money, do things to start making films." And so you know, with his blessing, I quit. And that was 2018. And, you know, since then I directed, I think, three more, four more shorts. One of them was for Netflix, which was a really cool opportunity, I was part of their Emerging Filmmaker Initiative, which we shot during the pandemic, which was amazing. But really, I think the film that launched my career was, I was in the AFI-- I got selected for the AFI Directing Workshop for Women. They choose eight women a year and kind of mentor them and help them craft a short film. And that short got in South by Southwest. Granted, it was in 2020. So it didn't actually premiere at South by Southwest, but it ended up winning an award, the Special Jury recognition award. And that really kind of like, got me agents, you know, it just spawned everything for my career. I ended up getting, you know, episodes of TV to direct, and it's gotten me feature projects that I'm attached to now. That film, Single, really has just opened so many doors and you know, then I got Forgive Us Our Trespasses from that. So, you know, it's kind of that idea that one short can really kind of launch your career. So that was a lot.

Lee Pugsley  
Thank you so much for sharing your experience, Ashley. And congratulations on the success that you've had. And just for, you know, being courageous to confront your disability and to not let any kind of stigma or shame take over. But you know, you've found ways to be proud of who you are, it sounds like, and I think that's incredible. I also think that the opportunities that you've had so far are incredible. And I'm really excited to see where they take you next. On the note of your disability: For listeners out there who are wondering, if you feel comfortable, would you be able to explain a little bit more about what your disability is, and kind of the ways that you've had to adapt to certain things on production sets?

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, so my disability is called Maffucci syndrome. And it's actually-- it's a really complicated disease, but it can create tumors, some benign, some cancerous, in your bones. And so I kind of have these tumors that have grown all over my body and kind of misshapen certain bones. I'm constantly monitored for cancer. I've had cancer twice. I had it when I was 18 - ovarian cancer - and then again, when I was 20. And you know, it's called a bone disease, but it's really like the cancer susceptibility disease. It's this genetic mutation that can just cause a whole bunch of issues. I mean, really, these tumors grow in places that really disrupt the growth of the bone, you know, and they happen all over my body, you know. And it's something that, really before you reach like adolescence, kind of grows quickly, and then it slows down a little bit. But it just keeps progressing. It's something that, you know, as I've aged, it seems to have gotten to a place where, you know, things grow that cause pain, you know, I deal with chronic pain all the time. I have had-- my legs kind of grew at different speeds, so one of my legs growing up was much shorter than the other. And so growing up, I used to have to wear like a big lift on my shoe. And then I had a leg lengthening, I've actually had it twice on one leg, because the leg just would not keep up with the other leg. And so for my hips and walking, you know, I had to have these surgeries. And it was really painful. I mean, the surgery is wild, they like break your bone and then put pins that go from one end to the other. And then like it stretches your leg, and then new bone grows in the middle of it. It's like-- it feels almost like a torture device. But it's almost, you know, it's a really incredible, like medical procedure, and it's actually refined now where it's not as bad. It's all done internally instead of like, externally, which that was most of the pain, is like these external sites with like, you know, that are just being open on your skin. It's kind of gross, I will stop. There's so many complications with my disease, and most of it is, you know-- I can't be standing for a really long time. I can, but I start to experience pain in my back when I stand for a long time. I have a lot of like shoulder/neck pain due to like certain tumors growing in my spine and like, you know. And have to have a lot of corrective surgeries on my hands, because these small like little tumors will happen on my hands and it creates pain. You know, and a lot of things for set, I mean, I always just requests that for directing, there's a chair that I can sit on that's lower. Which, like, so many places accommodate that, you know. I've been on sets too, where it's people who need accommodations who are older. You know, it's really something that shouldn't have to be a big deal. I am now a part of the DGA, and the DGA didn't have a disability committee when I joined. And this woman Jenny Gould, who's been a director in the industry and in the DGA, has tried to start this disability committee for decades. For like two decades. And they were pretty resistant towards it 'cause there just wasn't a lot of disabled directors actively in the DGA. And now, there are more. And so we tried again, and we actually got this disability committee approved. And what's been really cool is, when I worked on the Apple show Best Foot Forward, on set, we had someone that was a Production Accessibility Coordinator. And this role is like revolutionary on sets, because it is a below the line person that any crew can go to and talk about their access needs. And it's not just for the disabled people, it's also for the crew to come to that person, if they have a question about someone, and say, "Hey, you know, we're gonna do this with Ashley, like, is it okay if she walks that long" or something. You know, they can ask these questions and it's a safe space where there's kind of like this middle person. You know, and I can go to someone and say, "Hey, I really need, you know, I'm experiencing pain in my shoulders, does anyone have like a heat pack around or whatever." You know, something like that. And it was-- what was really cool about it is, when I started-- or during the series, they had about seven or eight different disabled people that were on the crew. And then by the end of this series, over 20 people came to this Production Accessibility Coordinator wanting access needs. So it's like, if you open it up and create a safe space, more people are going to show what they need and speak up. So that's something that we're really advocating for in you know, the DGA disability committee, or saying that all sets should have this and you know, it's something so new right now that it's probably going to take a lot of work for people to jump on board with this. But just like you know, intimacy coordinators, you know, we can have these Production Accessibility Coordinators that really you know, benefit everyone. For me, my journey with my disability has been long and twisty because-- I appreciate what you said about how I've accepted and owned my disability, but it took me a really long time, you know, for... Even though I started kind of talking about it in like 2014, it wasn't until probably 2017, I actually did a video for SoulPancake talking about my disability openly and the video went viral. And that's really the time where I was kind of having to own it. Like, I did this video talking about how I was tired of hiding it on social media and I was tired of you know, kind of this self hatred that I had adopted, you know. Not outwardly, it was more a very inwardly... People met me they wouldn't know. But inside I was-- really had this, like, disdain for my body and just did not like it and had a lot of internalized ableism. And it took finding community, really, is what completely changed everything, is like finding other people and connecting with them and then realizing you're not alone. And, you know, I actually connected with a group of people who have my disease, it's very rare. And so when I found a Facebook group with all these people who have my disease and started seeing, like, kids with my disease, it really completely changed my outlook on everything. I was like, I need to be a role model for these kids, and own and love myself, because I really needed that when I was younger, and I didn't have it. You know? And, and so it's been a long journey. I didn't-- I-- it's been a big struggle of me embracing my disability, but I'm really, really happy to say like, "Finally at 36, I'm in the space of really accepting and owning what it means and knowing that access needs aren't something that is bad, you know, it's something that is just an easier way for you to work."

Absolutely. And I can totally relate to that. And I'm sure Alex can, too, because I know both of us have experienced changes in vision over time. And when my vision started to get worse, I was still like, you know, doing theater, directing, and acting and everything. And, you know, I stepped away from the acting industry for a while, because I'm like, "There's not a place for me." And there was a lot of just shame that I had about myself, that I'm like, "There's not a place for me anymore, I won't be accepted now." And I tried to blend into the mainstream as long as I could. But finally, my vision was to the point where I couldn't hide it anymore. And it was a tough process. And granted, you know, our disabilities are different, but the emotions connected to them, and that journey of coming to love yourself, you know, is something that I think we can all relate to. And one of the great things now, when we were talking about Accessibility Coordinators on set, I recently booked something. And it was great because my agent sent over a list of accommodations that would be helpful for me too, the production. And they've been really great in working with me on those things. And it's just been really encouraging to see that there is progress being made with accessibility needs and people taking an interest and genuine investment in caring for those needs now that never used to be there, in the same way that it is now.

Lee Pugsley  
Right. Absolutely. That's great to hear about the production that you're involved with. 

Alex Howard  
Like Lee, I totally resonate with what you're talking about, about-- Yeah, you got to own it. I mean, we were in the lab together and 2020, Respectability. I think that's when I really like found my community of disabled people. And it was like, "Oh, I can talk about this. And there are a lot of other people." And I think that's where I really like, came to my own and started, you know, identifying, I guess, as legally blind and all of that. So finding a community is huge.

Ashley Eakin  
That's absolutely been the game changer in my life, is finding community. It's changed everything. And I think, you know, for so long, the definition of disability was like, so narrow. I didn't even identify as disabled, because I didn't know if I fell into that category. Because, you know, I grew up-- my mom was like, "Don't worry, you're not disabled, you're good." And then I'm like, "Oh, is being disabled bad?" You know. And then I also just thought disabled meant you are a wheelchair user, you know, and I didn't know that disability can cover so many different types of things. And it's actually been really helpful for it to be expanded, and show that there are so many, you know, avenues and facets of disability and that it's not a monolith, and everyone's experience is going to be different. 

Alex Howard  
How does your experience inform the stories that you write or try and tell? Like, are you mostly looking for that kind of story? Or how does it impact your-- because I know everyone in this boat, we all have different lived experiences, and I think that's something that's missing in Hollywood is the disability angle of storytelling. 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, I mean, you know, I never used to really want to tell stories about disability. I-- because I had so much cognitive dissonance from my disability, like, it was so deep that I even like-- my body is visibly different, but I used to imagine my body as able bodied until I'd like pass a mirror or a storefront window and be like, "Oh my God, that's my body." It was kind of this really weird mental space that I was put in. But once I started really embracing my identity, I actually realized like, I'm not-- I don't have shame because I'm just a bad person and don't like disabled people. I have shame because I have not seen myself represented anywhere. And I felt excluded. I felt like not important. You know, I remember, really young, going on like Yahoo Answers and being like, "What would someone-- would someone date a girl who had a, you know, messed up body or a different body, but people would call pretty?" Because like, I used to always get called-- told I have a pretty face. Which is like a really backhanded compliment to tell someone they have a pretty face. [laughing]. You know, you're like, "Okay, that's, uh, what are you saying here?" And I would like ask, you know, the version of Google back in the day, and people would quick, like, immediately relate it to weight. And I'm like, "No, this isn't a weight issue. This is like something else." But I couldn't-- there was no resources or anyone to talk to about it. And that's something that I really love exploring in the stories I'm telling. You know, not everything is about identity. But, you know, I love just showing disabled people in so many different types of stories and avenues. And that, you know, I-- when I went off to college, I went to a lot of parties and had a lot of friends and, you know, had all these experiences that I didn't see disabled people in media doing it all. You know, you just think someone who's disabled is like, perfect, and you know, infantile-ized, and, and, you know, this... Or you've only seen as the villain, you know, it's-- you didn't see fully fleshed out characters who were just human. You know? And I'm super drawn to disabled people that are, like, messy and complicated, because I think that is representative of who I am, as well. And I want, you know, people to know that disabled people are human, you know, and they have good days and bad days and complicated feelings. And, you know, I really love unpacking internalized ableism. And I don't think that's going to be forever in my stories, but I do think, you know, layering it in a lot of my stories is really interesting. And also a lot of forgotten stories, you know, Forgive Us Our Trespasses. I never knew about the history of World War Two and Aktion T4, until, you know, I was submitting to the Netflix program and I was like, "What was happening to disabled people in World War Two?" And when I started researching it, I was horrified. More horrified that I didn't even know about it, you know. And that's something that I love doing too, is kind of bringing these stories to the forefront. Some of the stories I have, it's not about identity, you know, and disability as well. So-- but I always try and have disabled characters embedded in my projects, whether it's the lead or it's a supporting character, or, you know, just making it fully inclusive and representative of the world around us.

Alex Howard  
I completely agree. And I think you're right, like not seeing us portrayed on screen really makes you like, shameful. And the-- Lee and I have both seen Forgive Us Our Trespasses, it is so good. And I was even watched it for this interview, for the second time. It's like so intense, and even-- I was telling Lee, like the crane shot of like when he's running through trees and everything... It's a good budget size, you know, short film for our listeners, if you-- it's on Netflix. I highly encourage you to watch it. It's a big budget short film, you know, how did all of that happen? And also, for our listeners, Liz Gutman, who we interviewed in June, wrote the audio description track, and Michelle Spitz, who we interviewed in our last episode, voiced the audio description.

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, and they did an amazing job, it was really, really great to have them a part of the project. Forgive Us Our Trespasses came about because Netflix was doing their first ever Emerging Filmmaker Initiative Program. And for some reason, they started during the pandemic, which I laugh at, because I'm like, "They didn't really have to make it this short." You know, it wasn't, it was like-- it's funny that it came at that time, because I thought, you know, the pandemic happened, that I would never work again on a set. But I got to work on a big, very big budget short film, that felt like a feature, you know, felt like you were prepping for a feature. The budget was incredible. And, you know, they originally wanted to shoot in New York, but I was living in Canada with my husband. And we would drive around and we'd see these very European looking farm houses and farmlands. And we were like, "What if we shot in Canada?" It's cheaper for them. I also can stay with my husband during the pandemic. I wouldn't have to go to New York on my own and, you know it-- we ended up convincing them. And we had an amazing team and it was all Canadian crew and you know, it was such a weird time in the industry that we got some like incredible crafts people and like cameramen and costume designer, people who like won awards, and it was just really special. And you know, this program, Netflix saw my short single, the one that went to South by Southwest, and I hadn't-- it wasn't really an interview, it was like a meeting with the team that was the head of it. And we just talked about some ideas that I wanted to do. And they said, "Okay, come up with a couple" and then I pitched them three different ones. Forgive Us Our Trespasses was one of those. And they chose that one, and then did some more prep, you know, on it, and changed the script. And then they were like, "Alright, we're gonna Greenlight this." It was almost like a dream scenario where now that I'm trying to get, like, actual features off the ground, it's been really hard and long. But it was incredible. You know, the-- Netflix really took you through the true studio process. I mean, they wanted filmmakers to get that experience of like, "What does it mean, when you work with a studio?" What does it mean, when I sign on to a meeting, and there's, you know, 15 people from Netflix, who are expecting me to tell them the plan, you know? And it was great, because I worked for someone who did all that. So I kind of knew the role that I had to take on, which was really cool. But yeah, I mean, we got this incredible kid actor who had never acted before in like a narrative piece. I followed him on Instagram. He's from Australia, and I used all his really cool photos for like, my pitch deck. I messaged his mom and was like, "Hey, do you care if I use these?" And then when we went to go cast, I was like, "This is who I want." And they were like, "Well, he's in Australia, and it's a pandemic. So I don't know how we're gonna get this kid to Canada." And they really wanted to find someone local instead. And, you know, either in the US or Canada. And we interviewed a bunch of people, auditioned a ton of kids. And it's just hard. You know, I mean, disabled people can definitely act, but a lot of these kids sometimes, like, are more shy, or timid, or, you know, one girl was amazing, but didn't want to get the COVID test. And you're like, "Okay, well, we're, you're gonna have to get tested, like 10, you know, probably, probably maybe 50 times during this process." So it's almost a good thing that she didn't want to do that, because they ended up being like, "Alright, I guess this kid in Australia is the only one." And so they flew him out, which was amazing, him and his mom. He had to quarantine two weeks when he came, and then two weeks when he went home. So he had to quarantine for a month, to be a part of like a five day shoot. It was the best experience, you know, I feel like, just really supportive. And everyone felt how important the story was, because a lot of the crew didn't know about the history of Aktion T4, and what Hitler was doing, and, you know, testing disabled people to try and see how to mass kill, you know, the rest of the people that he wanted to kill. It was just really moving to be a part of the project. And, you know, my husband and I, we want to do the feature, but we think that'll probably come down the road, once I make a smaller budget feature first. I don't know if they're gonna give me $100 million dollars to make a historical World War Two feature right now. But it was cool in the reach. The thing about Netflix that's really amazing is like, you put it-- they you know, put it live on their platform. And then you get to see how many people viewed it within like 10 days, and they give you stats and stuff now, which they used to not do, which was really cool. But the reach is just wild. They come back and tell you all the countries that have watched it, where it's really landing. And you know, I still get messages from people in my Instagram about what the short means to them, which is really cool. You know, and-- not everyone loved it, which is what always happens with film, you put your stuff out there, and you get the good and the bad. You know, some people were not happy that we fictionalized certain elements. But, you know, I never claimed that it was like a documentary. You know, it's historical fiction, surrounded by true events. Some people do not like that. So I learned a lot by going on a global platform. 

Lee Pugsley  
It's so interesting when it comes to art, because everyone has their own view of art. And that doesn't make any one's view better or worse than anyone else's. But because art is so subjective, I think it really challenges our own sense of self as an artist and just realizing, "Hey, not everyone is going to like what we put out there." 

Ashley Eakin  
Mhm.

Lee Pugsley  
"But that's okay. I don't need everyone to like it." But if it can reach a group of people, even a large group of people, then it's like, my job is done. If I can walk away knowing that I did something that I'm proud of, then it's worth it. You know, and Forgive Us Our Trespasses is a beautiful film. And it brought awareness to me about what was happening during World War Two to people that had disabilities because I didn't know the history of that either.

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, and I mean, when we were researching it, you know, I mean-- because we originally had an ending, you know, more true to what was happening to people, which isn't positive. And it was, you know, it's heartbreaking. I mean, a lot of these disabled people didn't have a chance to even fight back. And that was a really big discussion with Netflix of how we wanted to end this. And I know when I was doing the research, I mean, I was like, bawling, crying, I mean, I-- my disability is not hereditary, which is like what was a big thing, but they didn't know that about my disability until, you know, modern medicine and research, where they would definitely think that it's hereditary. Because I was born with this, my body looks different. I would for sure be part of these Aktion T4, you know, camps, and getting taken. And it just really, like, upset me. And I think that's why we decided to have a little bit more of a win for the disabled people at the end, you know, instead of just, you're captured and you're killed. You know, I think that's something that, especially for it being a younger boy, and you know, how disability is embraced now with-- you know, people with limb differences are, you know, really showing themselves on social media. And I love that. It's not how I grew up at all. And I love that people are embracing it. And disabled people are becoming famous and like influencers. And I think it's so cool. 

Lee Pugsley  
Just wanting to touch on the audio description part of your film. I know that Alex had mentioned that, you know, Liz Gutman and Michelle Spitz were involved with it. Did you have a role in getting audio description off the ground for that film? Or was that all a Netflix studio sort of thing that they did it on their own? 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, so I did not get introduced into audio description until my film Single, because Michelle Spitz actually awarded me free audio description through the Loreen Arbus grant. And I was like, this is incredible. And I never knew about it, you know. And she basically provided free audio description. And then moving forward on any of my projects, I'm like, we have to have audio description. And Netflix was one of the first things I talked about, when we started talking about post, I said, "I want there to absolutely be audio description on this." And Michelle was actually interested in doing it. And so I connected them and got them all together to be able to do it. And audio description is something that I sometimes even use for just day to day writing for scripts, because if I don't know, you know I'm-- sometimes building out action sequences, I'm like, "How would I write that?" And I'll turn on-- like I specifically watched The King, you know, Timothée Chalamet is in it. And there's some epic fight scenes where I turn on the audio description, and it's so beautifully written and succinct, and quick. And that's something that audio description, it's like an art, you know. I was talking to Liz about it, where I was just like, it's, it's an incredible skill, that you have to have to be able to write audio description. And I love that it just makes film accessible to a whole other community. You know, and my eyes were, you know, open to that when I did Single and it's something that I just want to keep doing on every project.

Lee Pugsley  
I love that you do that, that you turn on audio description to help with writing. Because I tell all of my friends that who are writers. I say, "If you want to improve your writing for a screenplay, even though an ad script and a screenplay may be different, what audio description does, is it teaches you how to paint a vivid picture with words in the most concise and direct way possible, while still giving you detail." And I think that it will strengthen any writer's ability to watch movies or TV shows with audio description. And there's a big benefit. 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, absolutely. I've definitely benefited from that.

Alex Howard  
What would you say to filmmakers that are kind of hesitant to do audio description?

Ashley Eakin  
I would just say, "Imagine who you are right now in your entire life. And then you get diagnosed with something where you can no longer visually see the medium that you love. You would want something like this to be provided." And I think kind of stepping into other people's shoes is sometimes the way to get them to understand what it means to people. Because I think they just don't process it in that way or something. I don't think anyone's intentionally wanting to exclude people, but I think they just don't understand what it really is sometimes, and what it can provide. You know, I think that is really the disconnect there. Because once you learn about it, you're like it's-- it's just cool too. It's interesting to watch your project with the audio description on. You know, you learn new things. It's a fun experience, but it's also just providing access to a wider audience. You're gonna get more people that will watch your stuff, too, if they, you know, realize that it has the audio description on.

Alex Howard  
Do you have anything in the works right now that you're looking forward to doing?

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I'm really excited about, that I really want to move forward. I feel-- [laughs]. I never know what's gonna move forward. So I'm attached to like six different things. And we'll see. I hope one of those goes forward. But something I'm really excited about, that I actually partnered with another disabled writer, Sam Dunnewold-- He was part of kind of the Inevitable world, which Inevitable provides grants for disabled writers. And I found him through that world. And I made a short in 2021 with Paul Feig's Powderkeg. And it's called Roommates. And it's about two girls who end up being put as roommates together just because they're disabled. One has scleroderma, which is like, she has a prosthetic leg and different scarring on kind of like her face and her body. And the other girl is wheelchair user. And it's Kiera Allen. And the one with scleroderma was Kelsey Johnson. But they end up becoming roommates. And it's kind of tense. And they're like, "Ugh, they put us together. And we're like, disabled, like, why did they do this?" But then they decide to bond by getting drunk. And they have kind of a crazy night. And it's just a very-- we shot it in one day, it was a very quick short, it ended up going to South by Southwest in 2022, which was fun, because I actually got to experience the festival. But we are trying to make that into a feature. And I feel like it's kind of like the Booksmart, but disabled. You know, it's like that type of film, like Superbad, those fun, kind of R rated teen coming of age films that I don't feel like we have had with disabled protagonists as the leads. And it's fun, you know, like the short, I always forget-- like, I kind of went into filmmaking thinking I want it to be this like dark, like Darren Aronofsky / Fincher [laughs] stuff. And then I kinda got into the comedy space, and I realized how fun it is to show your work when it's a comedy. Because the audience is laughing, and people are having a good time. And they like, you know, put down any judgments or barriers, like sometimes disability can be so dramatic and heavy, where it's nice to sometimes do-- That's why like, I do things like Forgive Us Our Trespasses, super serious and dark. And then I do Roommates where it's like two disabled girls getting drunk. Because I like going back and forth between this like, disability can be hard and heartbreaking. And disability can also be funny, and like ridiculous and absurd, you know, and... And that's what I like going back and forth in between. But that feature Roommates, I feel would just be really fun to make, like I had such a good time making that short with the girls and the team. And, you know, that'd be something really fun to be able to do. I'm developing this TV show that's based off of Single, for FX, which has been, you know, a very long process of development. But it's cool, because it's exploring, like dating and having a disability and roommates and just kind of what it's like to be a late 20 something and kind of like in disarray of your life but figuring it out. And it's someone who has a lot of internalized ableism, and hasn't came to terms with that at all. And so it's messy, and they're angry, and they're, you know, really working through it all. And so that's something that I would love to put out there. Because you know, FX really lets you go as far as you want in certain directions. So it's a great network to be at. It's just getting these projects to the finish line. Like there's been something really interesting and really hard about once you do all these shorts-- you know, I made like six shorts in total. And it's like, now I'm in this stage where I'm like doing TV shows and features. But to get them actually to the green light is a really long, hard process, you know. And with the shorts, you're like making one or a couple every year, you know, and you're like really going with this stuff. And so that's been a little hard and frustrating. I did during the strike, I actually shot like an experimental visual poem that-- because I just love directing so much. I wanted to get out there and make something. I had a DP who approached me, and he was like, "Hey, I have some time. I'm about to have a kid, would you want to go make something?" And he's like, you know, sent me a couple examples of something. And I was like, "I actually have this idea." And it was this visual poem about our bodies being a shell for our souls. And it's very artistic and experimental, but we just, you know, found out that we got into festival which is cool, and you know, it'll be-- it's just kind of one of those pieces that you do for the art of it. You know, like you remember why you're an artist and why you like connect with the visual medium. And so that is something that I'm really excited to share with people. Because it has a really deep message that I think will affect a lot of people in the disability community. And so that's something that I'm, I'm really excited about.

Alex Howard  
Wow, congratulations. That's really cool that you got into a festival with that. And then that's cool that you got to go to SXSW too, because I think we were on a panel together that was virtual. 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I've never been to SXSW in person. 

Ashley Eakin  
It's a really fun festival if you get a chance. Like that festival is just like super friendly and fun. And the energy is really good. And you know, I haven't been to too many festivals, like, Single got into a bunch of them. But because it was the pandemic, it was all virtual screenings, which was really depressing, to like, get on Zoom, and then watch your film from your computer. Like, I've watched this film so many times, like, you know. So, it's so different going into a theater with an audience and other filmmakers, and it's a really fun festival. 

Alex Howard  
I want to keep doing the festival circuit. And that stuff, but, you know, it's, it's hard.

Ashley Eakin  
It's expensive. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah yeah yeah.

Ashley Eakin  
I mean, even for filmmakers, I mean, they don't pay your way to go there. You know, you get a free pass, but they're like, "Alright, figure out lodging, hotel, and how to get here," you know, and it's like, you can't afford that. Sometimes you're just putting all your money into your film and you're like, "Okay, I guess I'm gonna try and make it to this one." But SXSW is a good one if you are, you know-- it's, it's just like a fun, it's a fun energy.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, that's what I hear. Is single available to stream anywhere?

Ashley Eakin  
Single right now is not anywhere. So AFI doesn't love when people put out their films, just to put them out on Vimeo. There's a trailer on my website, if you email me, I'll send you a link to anyone listening because I do like sharing it. But yeah, it was for a while streamable on different platforms. But right now it's not. 

Alex Howard  
Which ones of your projects are available to stream?

Ashley Eakin  
Forgive Us Our Trespasses is on Netflix, you can look up that just by looking at the title. Roommates is actually on flights right now, on Delta flights, you can actually watch it if you go take a Delta flight for-- I don't know how long they're gonna be on there. I thought it was only going to be October, but it's still, it's still going. So maybe until the end of the year. And you know, some of my other smaller shorts are just on my Vimeo.

Alex Howard  
Your TV show too, right, the one on Apple? 

Ashley Eakin  
Yes, yes, so I have a couple ones that I've directed. So Best Foot Forward, I directed the Movies episode and the Field Day episode. And that is on Apple. It's an incredible series. It actually just got nominated for an Emmy, which is amazing. And I'm so excited for the team, and the creator of that is also disabled. It's a disabled story, it's really beautiful, and for families to watch. And then I also directed an episode of a Disney Plus show called Growing up, which is a series that Brie Larson created. And my episode is episode four. And it features Emily Flores who is an amazing young disabled activist and her story is really cool. And a lot of the things we've been talking about here and internalized ableism., and you know, this struggle, she really like highlights a lot of that and finding community. I think one of my favorite scenes I've ever directed is in that episode. Because there's a part where she talks about finding other women on the internet, and being like, "Oh my god, I have a community." And the way we did that visually was like, all these women are on the computer talking but then they kind of almost come out of the computer and are dancing in the space. And like it just, it made me so happy to see all these like beautiful disabled women with different bodies like dancing and moving and being proud of their body. So it's something that I love that moment in that episode.

Alex Howard  
Oh, that sounds awesome. I did not know about that. So I will definitely check that out now.

Lee Pugsley  
I'm really excited to check out some of the work you just mentioned that I haven't seen yet. And just want to thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I am excited once again to see where the future leads you to. And I know that many more big opportunities are going to be coming your way. But in the meantime, congratulations on everything you've done so far. And just for being a voice in the disabled community and telling the stories that otherwise would not be told. It's nothing short of significant.

Ashley Eakin  
Thank you so much. It's been really nice to chat with you guys.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for being on. Thanks for all your advocacy and you know, work that you do in the disability community. I'm sure our paths will cross again at a festival or panel or something. 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, yeah.

Alex Howard  
Where can people find you on Instagram and everything. Do you want to give out your handles and stuff? 

Ashley Eakin  
Yeah, my Instagram, it's Ash, A-S-H and then Eakin, my last name, E-A-K-I-N on Instagram, Twitter, I guess X now, and just Ashley Eakin on Facebook.

Alex Howard  
Okay, great. Yeah, thanks once again and thank you all for listening.

Lee Pugsley  
And if you guys have any questions about anything we've talked about today, once again, you can always contact Ashley directly or if there's other conversation topics that it stimulates for you guys that you want to dialogue with me and Alex about, please feel free to email us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. Once again, that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram at DarkRoomFilmCast. And we want to shout out Matt Lauterbach for making transcripts of this episode possible, as well as all of our previous episodes as well. So yeah, thank you guys so much for listening. And we will see you next time here on The Dark Room. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, thanks, guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai