2024 Oscars Audio Description Round Table | The Dark Room

Watch the video version of this episode here!

Alex and Lee are pleased to present this special panel presentation, featuring audio description writers and narrators who worked on 7 of the 10 Oscar-nominated Best Picture films.
In their conversation, they celebrate the works of these wonderful individuals who made these films accessible and highlight specific audio description aspects of each project. The panel features Matthew Christoffersen ("American Fiction"), Tristan Snyder ("Anatomy of a Fall"), Stoney Emshwiller ("Barbie" & "The Zone of Interest"), Liz Gutman ("Maestro" & "May December"), Christina Stevens ("American Fiction" & "Oppenheimer"), and Samantha Manahan ("Poor Things").

Image Description: A top-down stock photo of business folks gathered around a white round table. The Dark Room logo is on the tabletop with the words 2024 Oscars Audio Description Roundtable.

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Transcript

Lee Pugsley  
What's up everyone, welcome to The Dark Room where two blinds cinephiles illuminate the sighted. I'm Lee Pugsley.

Alex Howard  
I'm Alex Howard.

Lee Pugsley  
And today, we have something very special for you. This is something that we've been planning for quite a few months now. And we're glad that it's finally coming to fruition. This is our first annual Oscars audio description roundtable. We have a wonderful lineup of guests that are both audio description narrators and writers. And we are so excited to be here today and to do this event for you.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so this was a little idea we had in around September. And so it was inspired by The Hollywood Reporter round tables, they do Oscars and director's round tables for the Oscars. And we were like, well, audio description is such a big part of our movie experience. Why don't we have a roundtable with audio description writers and narrators of Oscar nominated movies? And so we had this idea, and we were like, "Oh, like, maybe we can get one or two." It turns out, we got six. So we are so, so excited to have this for our first year for 2024. 

Lee Pugsley  
And we also are excited because we get to highlight the wonderful work that you guys do that, you know, doesn't get talked about nearly as much as it should. And we just want to celebrate your accomplishments and congratulate you on being part of an Oscar nominated film. And we commend the work that you've done. Alex and I have seen your movies, and they're all excellent. And a big part of our enjoyment of those movies is the work that you guys have done to make them accessible for the blind and low vision communities. So on behalf of me and Alex, we want to thank you for that. And we're gonna go ahead and dive into some questions here shortly. But before we do that, let's go ahead and introduce ourselves. When you introduce yourself, please go ahead and state your, say your name. Give a brief a physical description and say what movie or movies you're representing and what audio description company you partnered with. I'll go ahead and start. My name is Lee. I am an Asian male. I have black hair, and I'm wearing a light blue shirt. I'll pass it on to you, Alex.

Lee Pugsley  
My name is Alex. I'm a white male with glasses. I have a 'Barbie I am Kenough' shirt on for the Oscars roundtable and a blue flannel.

Lee Pugsley  
And then we are going to go ahead, and I'll have you guys introduce yourselves in alphabetical order of the films that are represented here. We'll start with Matthew. 

Matthew Christoffersen  
Hi, I'm Matthew. I'm a white male. I am wearing a cranberry thermal and a gray and red beanie. And the film I'm representing is American Fiction. And my employer is Deluxe. 

Lee Pugsley  
Great! Next, Tristan.

Tristan Snyder  
I'm Tristan. I am a stocky, middle aged white male with a beard and brown hair and I'm wearing a t-shirt that I believe says Blind Guys Do It By Feeling. And I'm the... company that I worked with for Anatomy of a Fall was Audio Eyes.

Lee Pugsley  
Awesome. And let's move on to Stoney.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Hi. I am Stoney Emshwiller, and I'm an old fat balding white guy with a scraggly gray goatee. I basically look like Colonel Sanders and Burl Ives had a love child. Not in a good way. The movies I worked on were Barbie and Zone of Interest. Very similar movies. I get them mixed up all the tim. And I work for Deluxe.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, both of those movies, they're pretty much the same sort of thing, right? 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles]

Lee Pugsley  
And let's go to Liz.

Liz Gutman  
Hi, my name is Liz Gutman. I'm a 40 year old white woman with glasses and shoulder length brown hair with a little gray in it. I wrote the A.D. for Maestro, as well as May December. And I'm the head A.D. writer at IDC Digital in New York.

Lee Pugsley  
Wonderful. And let's go ahead and go to Christina. ,

Christina Stevens  
Hi, I'm Christina Stevens. I am a... um, Asian woman in her mid 30s with shoulder length, very dark brown hair, and I'm wearing a burgundy sweatshirt. The movies that I worked on were American Fiction and Oppenheimer, and I am the Writing Manager at Deluxe.

Lee Pugsley  
Fantastic. And last but not least, let's go to Samantha. 

Samantha Manahan  
Hi. My name is Samantha Manahan. I'm a white female wearing bookish glasses, a black turtleneck, and I have wavy silver streaked hair that's in sort of a casual up do. I wrote the description for Poor Things with Carol Hostetler, for Deluxe. 

Lee Pugsley  
Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for those introductions. And we're just gonna go ahead and dive into some questions. The first round of questions is going to be general questions that we're just going to go down the line and have each one of you answer. And we'll start in alphabetical order for the first round. And then the second question will go in reverse alphabetical order, if that's such a thing. And these questions all pertain to the audio description components of these Oscar nominated films. And for anyone that's new to audio description or doesn't know what it is: it is a narration track that describes the action. If there's subtitles, they read the subtitles. But they describe the action when there's no dialogue. So it's very helpful for the visual experience for blind and low vision users to make sure that they are getting the full picture of what's going on. Also, please be aware that audio description is also referred to as AD. And in these conversations, we may be abbreviating audio description to AD. With that in mind, let's go ahead and dive in. First question for you guys. Were just curious if you could just briefly tell us what inspired you to get into audio description. And let's start with Matthew.

Matthew Christoffersen  
Okay, so I was working for a company, I was doing closed captioning. And there was a small A.D. unit. And my boss had a directive from her bosses to cross-train those captioners as AD. writers, and I don't recall if I was a volunteer or victim, but I ended up doing it. And I ended up loving it. And I was splitting time between the two departments, captioning and AD. And now I'm here at Deluxe.

Lee Pugsley  
Awesome. And, yeah, let's go ahead and move over to Tristan. 

Tristan Snyder  
Oh, I didn't include in my description that I am totally blind. So I-- and I've been blind since birth. So I've, I've... I kind of grew up with just, you know, knowing how valuable a resource audio description is. And it happened through a series of, of both fortunate and unfortunate events. I ended up getting involved with a company that was doing audio description for television. And I started there as an audio engineer. And then we did a movie for the Wonderful World of Disney back on ABC many, many years ago. And they said, "Oh, you know, your voice would be perfect for this." And I'm like, "I've never narrated anything like this before." But I'd heard a bunch of audio described movies. So I thought, "Well, I'll give it a shot." And so I've been narrating ever since. And I also do quite a bit of audio production, and the mixing, the editing and all of that. So I'm kind of fully immersed in the audio description world on every production level except writing. And I do it now as an independent. I have my own little company, Ear2EarSound, and I also do work for other companies. So.

Lee Pugsley  
Amazing, amazing. Yeah, it is great to have you here to represent narrators as well. So that's awesome. Let's go ahead and pass the ball on to Stoney.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Thanks. It's kind of a tough one. Because I've had like a Forrest Gump, drift-around kind of life. So in a weird way was a natural progression because I started as a, as a magazine editor and a novelist. And then I became a set dresser for movies and television, and an actor doing mostly voiceover. So, which was very useful for audio description because I was, now I'm on the other side of the microphone. And it's good to know all the things I learned as a voiceover actor. But my mom was legally blind for the last 10 years of her life. So I actually would visit her and describe things, where she'd be watching like some police procedural and I'd be sitting next to her trying to tell her what was happening on screen in between lines, which was really hard. But it gave me just a little taste of something that I didn't even know existed. And then later on, learned that there was this thing called audio description. And that was so cool. And I'm delighted to be doing it now. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, we're delighted that you're doing it as well.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Thanks. 

Alex Howard  
That's great. My, my parents do that for me, but they're not professional A.D. writers. That's amazing.

Lee Pugsley  
 And Liz?

Liz Gutman  
I heard about audio description on a podcast actually. So I also have kind of a checkered past. I went to college, with a major in acting and a minor in creative writing. But then went into food for like a decade, that's a different story. And when I was kind of winding down the business I had started when I was in food, I heard about audio description. And I was like, that sounds really cool. And I did a training with Colleen Connor, who is a fellow theater kid, who was also blind, and their co-teacher at the time, who was a veteran theater describer. And that training changed my life. And I was like, "I think this is what I need to be doing." Did some more training, started freelancing, actually did a few projects for Deluxe. And then got a job at IDC here in New York, and I've been there for over five years now.

Lee Pugsley  
Wonderful. And Christina?

Christina Stevens  
Hi. I, it's strange, I actually heard audio description for the first time when it was mistakenly played along with the main track in a theatre screening, and they couldn't shut it off for whatever reason. So it just played for the whole movie. And it, it didn't take me long before I understood what it was, and that of course something like this must exist. And less than a year after seeing that, I saw an ad for an audio description writer, and I actually knew what it was and was qualified. And I've been doing it ever since. This year will be 10 years. 

Lee Pugsley  
That's such a fun way to discover audio description, you know, just to kind of like stumble into it. And yeah, I've had a few friends that found audio description that way where they accidentally turned on a track on a streaming show. And they're like, "What is this?" and then they're like, "Oh, this is kind of cool." That's wonderful. And then Samantha.

Samantha Manahan  
Hi. I um, I started-- it was my first job out of college working at, at WGBH. And started out just writing and then did post production supervising, doing directing and producing narration sessions. And then just wandered off into all other kinds of, of writing and came back to it. I can't, I can't quit it. And when I think about what's always inspired me to do it, or to keep doing it, I think, is just... You know, whenever I get together with family and friends, we always talk about what everybody is watching. And, you know, I feel like everyone should be able to do that. And the more people we bring into that conversation, just, the better the dialogue is about it. So I've always just really enjoyed that aspect of it. And so I love being able to immerse myself in stories, you know, film and television every day, and then to share that access with other people. And just, it's, it's sort of um-- It's kind of writing with a moral purpose. And sometimes writing doesn't always have that when you're doing it, you know, professionally. And so I really, really enjoy that aspect of it.

Lee Pugsley  
That's great. And it's just so cool to hear all of your stories and to hear, um, there's so many different ways that people get into this world of audio description. But however you guys got here, you guys all have really cool journeys. And we're just so happy that you're here, that you're in this world with us. We're gonna go ahead and dive a little deeper into some of the nuts and bolts of your specific films. And Alex, I'll throw it to you for the next question.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so we're wondering if there are any aspects in the writing or narrating process that set these films apart from other films that you've worked on.

Lee Pugsley  
And let's go ahead and we'll go in reverse order this time. So let's start with you, Samantha, and Poor Things. 

Samantha Manahan  
This was such a trippy world, there's just an off-ness about every setting that we're in, where we're sort of in Victorian, Victorian England, but then, you know, there's a steam powered carriage with a mounted horse head on it. And I think just the visual landscape was so unusual, because it was almost real, but then there were sort of these fantastic elements to it. And I felt like everything was really working well to move the story forward. The production design and the costumes and all of that. I felt sort of really energized to kind of use that information to to sort of move the story forward. So it was just a film where there was so much to work with, there was just always something happening in every frame. And the challenge was really to, you know, balance those elements of moving a story forward and creating this, this rich world. So that to me is what felt very unique about this project specifically.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, there was a lot to juggle with that film, and you definitely did a fantastic job with that.

Samantha Manahan  
Oh, thank you.

Lee Pugsley  
So yeah, let's go ahead and go to Christina and Oppenheimer. 

Christina Stevens  
Yeah, so Oppenheimer was sort of deceptively complicated. You know, it seems at first like it's going to be super dialogue heavy and maybe not have as much description as you think. And so when I watched it, I thought, "Oh, great, this maybe won't be as hard as I thought because it's three hours." But then when I got into it, there's like a million different characters. And then there's this device of switching between black and white and color, which I think at first blush, I think people might be under the impression that it's, you know, the past is in black and white, and then the present is in color, which is actually not the case. So you're basically tracking a lot of pieces in order to keep it from being confusing to somebody listening to it. And I think I think that was the tricky part about Oppenheimer.

Lee Pugsley  
Well, kudos to you for figuring out a way to do that. And to do it successfully as well. 

Christina Stevens  
Thank you.

Lee Pugsley  
And Liz, let's go to you and Maestro.

Liz Gutman  
Yeah, Maestro was, I feel like compared to the other movies that these other panelists wrote, I kind of got off easy. But, you know, there were a few of the similar challenges to Oppenheimer, just in terms of black and white versus color. There were a bunch of characters popping in and out. For me, what I found myself focusing on the most was balancing the description with the music, because it's Leonard Bernstein. He's a composer, the music is definitely 'need to hear.' It's such a huge part of the movie and of him. So it was making sure that there was plenty of space for you know, when the score is his compositions, you want to make sure that comes through. So it's really making sure that there's plenty of time for a lot of the description, but keeping that economy and that sort of vividness and concision, going back and editing, editing some more, making sure to distill it as much as possible, so that the music can come through as well.

Lee Pugsley  
That makes sense. And yeah, I feel like music, like movies, definitely have their own tricky dynamics about them. And I applaud you for figuring out a way to do that. 

Liz Gutman  
Thank you. 

Lee Pugsley  
And let's go ahead and we will move to Stoney and Barbie. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
With Barbie it's a little similar to what Samantha was talking about with like, just this world that was so stylized, and so surreal. And then it was a pretty dialog heavy movie too. So just trying to squeeze in descriptions about what you're seeing was a challenge, but it was a really fun show. I love the movie by the way. It's like my favorite movie of the year. Which is funny because here I am this you know old white guy being assigned this movie, but I'm so glad I was because it was such a pleasure to work on. One of the challenges was like, for those who've seen it, it was like everybody who's a Barbie is called Barbie. And everybody who's a Ken is called Ken. [lauging]. So you have dialogue where it's "Hi Barbie?" Yeah, hi Barbie, how are you doing?" "I'm doing well Barbie, how are you?" And I had to figure out what to call these people to differentiate them. And I finally settled--and hopefully it worked--on like the main Barbie and the main Ken, Margot and Ryan Gosling, they would just be Barbie and Ken. And then everybody else would have a little adjective. They'd be like, you know the lawyer Barbie, doctor Barbie, stocky Ken, or the tall Ken. And hopefully that solution work because it was a, it was a complex thing to try and figure out how to do it and to do in a tight timeframe. Because you don't want to have to describe, you know, somebody as "the tall curly haired Barbie with the long legs," you know, whatever it is. You have to just find one word to squeeze it in.

Alex Howard  
Do you remember what you called Kate McKinnon's Barbie?

Stoney Emshwiller  
She was Weird Barbie. And that was even in the script itself. So I didn't have any-- I didn't have to be creative with that one. [laughing] But it was fun describing her for sure. And her doing the splits. Yeah, she was delightful.

Lee Pugsley  
Well, I can say--and I'm sure Alex, you would probably agree--but with all the descriptions you had in there, it was easy for me to track who was who and you know, like you said, there were a lot of moving parts there. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
I'm glad it worked. 

Lee Pugsley  
And Alex, you were able to track too, right?

Alex Howard  
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was great. I think it was one of my favorite A.D. tracks of the year. Yeah.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Oh, awesome. Wow, thank you.

Lee Pugsley  
And let's go ahead and move over to Tristan and Anatomy of a Fall. 

Tristan Snyder  
Well, first as a, as a as another blind person here, I just also want to agree with both of you. Barbie was, was very easy to track. And I thought it was well made, so that we could distinguish between the Barbies and the Kens and everything was good. And, and Oppenheimer and Maestro worked really well for me as well. Everything just, just came together so nicely. And so Anatomy of a Fall for me. The, there were a few things that were tricky about it as a narrator and as an engineer. But as a narrator, the part that was I think hardest for me was going from French to English. And I know that doesn't sound-- there wasn't a whole lot of French narration, but the credits. And then going back into English again [laughing]. Just... And making sure that the names have the right pronunciation because they look, you know, in some of the names, they look a certain way, you know, and French has a lot of interesting spelling. And so I was lucky in that I had the audio track to the movie. So I was able to listen not only to the original dialogue and get people's names as they were spoken--(our scripts pointed out where the names were pronounced, so I got to just listen to the names and make sure that I got them right)--but also the subtitles that were already recorded, I was able to, to hear people and how they did things, how they pro--. So it was much easier to make it flow. And flowing between myself and the, and the dubbed subtitles, because Audio Eyes uses multiple voices for subtitles. So it was, it was easier for me to hear all of that and then put the narration in. I was kind of the, I was kind of the last piece of the puzzle. I think there may have been a few lines outstanding from the subs, but--when I was on it--but most of them were in and it was it was nice to be able to fit my piece of the puzzle into the larger puzzle to complete it.

Alex Howard  
I'm interested in, if you don't mind me asking, were they looking for a blind narrator because there was a blind character in the movie? Or was it just, they found you and you were the perfect voice and you happened to be blind?

Tristan Snyder  
So it's more the latter. I had a prior relationship with Audio Eyes. I used to be their chief engineer, and one of the main narrators. I did The Good Doctor for for the last three seasons and a number of other shows for them on ABC. And so I was just somebody they called because they thought I would fit this movie. But it just so happened that this, that the kiddo was blind in the movie. And so-- and Audio Eyes makes a point of hiring not only blind but also just disabled talent. Because in the industry, I'm sure as you guys know, disabled talent in general and blind talent in particular, are highly underrepresented. And so Audio Eyes prefers to, when they can, cast blind and disabled talent. That's just something they do.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I was, I was so happy that this was the my first foreign movie I saw in the theater because it had an audio description. So I was so happy that it had it. So thank you.

Tristan Snyder  
It was a lot of fun to do. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I echo what Alex said. Thank you, because there's always that worry with international films, are they going to have audio description? And how is the other description going to be? But yeah, I really enjoyed your track for this movie. And let's go ahead and move to Matthew and American Fiction.

Matthew Christoffersen  
I mean, this is a very dialogue heavy piece. So it wasn't very description heavy, but maybe trying to convey emotions of somebody... of an actor playing a character who's also playing a character. When, when Monk is impersonating Stagg R. Leigh, yeah, I would say that's, that was fun to describe his mannerisms. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, very, very cool. And I did, I really did enjoy, once again, the audio description track for American Fiction as well, like you said, it is very dialogue heavy, but it's all those little details and describing those expressions that really add to the full viewing experience as well. So thank you for that. And, yeah, we're gonna go ahead and move on to the next question, which is: What was the most challenging scene in your film to write or narrate audio description for? And we're going to start at the top of the list again, and I-- you just talked about it, Matthew, with American Fiction, but were there any other themes that you found specifically challenging to write audio description for?

Matthew Christoffersen  
Yeah, I think the scene after Lorraine and Maynard's wedding, not a huge challenge but-- just to convey that that Monk is by himself just because he's by himself, not because he's particularly depressed, he's just sort of alone on the deck because that's who he is. He's like an ivory tower intellectual; and not try to read too much into his emotions. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I do remember that scene too and yes, just so interesting, I think with writing A.D. and the way that A.D. is able to convey emotions and just like the nuances that go into all of that. Um, but yeah, you handled them very well. 

Matthew Christoffersen  
Thank you. 

Lee Pugsley  
Let's go ahead and move on to Tristan. Once again, the question for everyone is: What was the most challenging scene to write or narrate audio description for?

Tristan Snyder  
That would be the French credits. Um, I speak Spanish [laughs]. And so my natural inclination is to put a Latin pronunciation on, on things the Spanish way. And, and French is just so different. It's still Latin, it's still a Latin language, but it's very, it's spelled differently. The rules are very different. And it is, it is a challenge to get that out of my mouth. And so when I, when I sat there reading even just the credits or, or the names of people, the places... making sure that they were pronounced correctly, that was real tough. And then switching back to English, you know, that, that that was hard.

Lee Pugsley  
I could imagine. And it's also interesting, too, because I feel like Spanish and French are different, obviously. But they're similar enough. So if you're used to speaking Spanish with some of the similarities between the words and French, did that ever get confusing? Or did you ever find yourself slipping into a Spanish word here and there?

Tristan Snyder  
Well, and that was the thing was to get my Rs, your Rs are not rolled in French. They're, it's a it's a it's a different sound. Right? [Rolls his R] versus [a more throaty R]. And it's a whole different ballgame. The pronunciations are very different. Even if the words look similar, or if their roots are similar. Their pronunciations are vastly different. They're not really inter-intelligible. Yeah, it's a tough challenge to not slip into a Spanish style. You have to remember what the French language sounds like. And move from there.

Lee Pugsley  
That makes sense. Yeah, well, good luck with that. It came out well. And let's go ahead and move on to Stoney and Barbie -- most challenging scene to write A.D. for. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
I was thinking Zone of Interest, but, but Barbie is good. I think probably the trickiest one was the "I'm Just Ken" song. And that's just because song and dance numbers just are inherently tricky. Because you've got to decide how much of the lyrics you want to let through, how much you want to describe with the dances. And generally you want all the lyrics to be heard. But if they're repeated, you'll throw in over a repeated lyric, a description of some little dance move. But I loved that sequence, that sort of dream dance sequence. But it was challenging because you just had to find a way to squeeze in what's going on visually among the very hilarious lyrics that are being sung. And the fight scene that happens all around that sequence was also challenging and fun. Because there's sooo much happening. And you just have to pick and choose. But the fun thing about A.D. in general is that it's like a puzzle. Every, every project, how do I solve this problem? So it's always like a fun little challenging puzzle to figure out. Unless you just got huge, like at the beginning of Zone of Interest, we have a huge, just black screen for a looooong time. And that's the opposite problem, where it's like, what do I say? So that people know that the A.D. is still functioning? But-- [laughs]. So yeah, it can go both ways.

Alex Howard  
Was that the most challenging scene for the Zone of Interest, the long black?

Stoney Emshwiller  
Honestly, if I'm being really honest, there was a scene in Zone of Interest that I would burst into tears every time I got to it. There's a sequence near the end of the film, where they actually show the real Auschwitz and-- which is now a museum. So people are cleaning and just going about their daily work, preparing the museum to open. And there's a sequence where you see these glass windows showing displays behind them. And there's one that just looks like a mountain, there's a mountain. Well, it's a huge mountain behind the glass. And they do a close up, and it's shoes. It's men's, women's and children's shoes. And every time I got to that, and you just tried to write it, the tears will just start coming down. Now that I brought the whole room down, heh, sorry about that. But that was-- so A.D. can be really emotional. You know, I remember when we work in the office together, sometimes you'll turn around and talk to one of your coworkers and they'll be crying, because, you know, they're working on a sad movie. So yeah, you go through the gamut of emotions in this business.

Tristan Snyder  
That's for sure. If I can just add to that for a second. When you're narrating and when you have the-- if you have the audio track of the movie, and so you can-- or the television show and you and you hear what's happening, you can be affected. And sometimes I've had situations where I had to stop because the scene was super emotional. And I had to, like, get my emotions dealt with and then go back to the narrating. That's happened a few times because I'm a pretty easy crier in movies and that one was... You know, there are some times when it's like that. It's really tough.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Definitely.

Lee Pugsley  
I'm glad you brought that up, because I don't often think about how emotional writing or narrating audio description can be. It makes complete sense. But it's just not something that I've actually stopped to think about. But yeah, that's very enlightening. And totally, I could understand why certain movies would bring about those emotions.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, I think as a viewer, you're, you're more like waiting for the distribution to tell you. So you're like, relying on it, you're not so much thinking of, "Oh, what are THEY feeling?" You know, if there's an intense scene of like, John Wick of like, gunfights, you're like really into it. You're not thinking of like, "Oh, how was this for the narrator? Like, actually emotionally watching this? Especially in Zone of Interest because I remember that, that mountain. Like, I remember that specific moment. And I didn't even think about like, "Oh, how hard is this for the narrator, or writer to, you know, make?" So that's really interesting.

Christina Stevens  
It is something when you have a really emotional part, it might be one minute, five minutes or 10 minutes in the movie, but you think about the time that we're spending with it, it could be a whole day. So you might spend eight hours on this, like, gut wrenching sequence, and it does really leave you kind of drained at the end of, at the end of getting through it. And then when you watch it, the final thing, it's just sort of this thing that goes by and the movie moves on, but we certainly stew in it a lot.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, well, thank you guys, for going on that journey when it's called for, to bring it to us in an effective way as well. Let's go ahead and hear from you, Liz about Maestro, most challenging scene to write A.D. for.

Liz Gutman  
There is a-- I don't think this will be a spoiler. There's a six minute scene of Bradley Cooper as Leonard Bernstein just conducting a piece of music in this beautiful cathedral. And that, when I first watched that through, I was like, "Oh, no..." [laughs], because it's all on the A.D. writer, like, "Okay, how do I strike this balance?" It's all about the music, right? But this whole thing with Bradley Cooper was that he spent whatever it was, two or three years learning how to conduct, so he was actually conducting the orchestra in that scene. So that was really challenging. I, I also-- I'm never not second guessing my work. I don't think there's a single-- I've said this before, I will never, you know, stop saying it. There's no script out there that I've written that I would not change, given the chance, that I wouldn't edit, that I wouldn't refine, that I wouldn't change things about. So yeah, that was, that was really hard. I'm happy with how it came out. I think... I think I made good decisions. But trying to strike the balance between describing his movements... I found myself reaching for a little more poetic language than I might normally because-- but also trying to tow that line, right. So there are certain gestures like flicking a hand, clenching a fist, things like that, that are fairly objective. But there are parts of that where it just-- the the music feels like a part of him. So I did my best to, you know, set the scene, let the music come through, hit the big movements. And just let the rest of it kind of go, so that the viewer could absorb it in their own time and have plenty of space for the music to really bring that emotion to the scene. 

Alex Howard  
Whenever I watch a Netflix project, I'm always like anticipating, "Oh, this is probably written by Liz Gutman--

Liz Gutman  
Hahahahah!

Alex Howard  
So I'm like, "Oh, like, pay more attention to the actual writing of the audio description." And I remember that scene being like, "Oh my God, this must have been so hard for her to like, balance this."

Liz Gutman  
You were right. You were correct.

Alex Howard  
And then, um, just talking about emotional scenes. I know we're not-- you're representing Maestro. But May December is a very emotional movie. Was there a scene in that, that you found was emotional for you to write?

Liz Gutman  
Yes, there's a scene towards the very end where Charles Melton's character-- and I'm with Tristan here, I'm kind of an easy cry. Particularly with stuff that I'm working on. There's a scene towards the end. And this is kind of a spoiler. So for anyone listening if you haven't seen May December and you want to, I don't know, fast forward a little bit. Where he comes into-- where he's in the bedroom of-- he's in the bedroom with his wife play by Julianne Moore. And there's this kind of coming to terms with... Him coming to terms in real time with, "Hey, I don't know that I could have really consented. I was a kid, you know?" And she gets really defensive. And it turns into this whole thing. And she just kind of huffs out. And that was really tough, because I also-- the story that movie is blatantly based on was like huge headlines when I was a kid. So I really distinctly remember that growing up. And that guy's a real guy, and he's out there living his life, and I just have so much sympathy for him. And seeing that play out on screen was just devastating. I do think Charles Melton did an amazing job of it. He's terrific in that movie. But that, that was a particularly tough one, because it touches on so many really heavy subjects. And because he conveyed it so effectively.

Lee Pugsley  
Definitely agree with that. And yeah, that was I mean, that's the, that's the scene that really sticks out to me from May December. 

Alex Howard  
I definitely agree. Yeah, that was the scene where I was like, "Oh, man, like, I mean, I think he should have gotten an Oscar nomination." But... 

Liz Gutman  
I agree. 

Alex Howard  
I was like, "This isn't--". I was like, "This is the kid from Riverdale? Like who knew he could do this?"

Liz Gutman  
Yeah, yeah, he's incredible.

Lee Pugsley  
Absolutely. Okay, let's go ahead and go to Christina and Oppenheimer, most challenging scene to write A.D. for.

Christina Stevens  
Um, there's a scene after the bomb is dropped. Spoiler alert. [chuckles] Where Oppenheimer is giving a speech, basically, to the people who work on the project and the families. And he's giving, he's, you know, obviously supposed to go up and give this kind of rah rah, patriotic, "we did it" speech. But he's also sort of coming to terms with what's happened. And he's having a bit of a mental break. And so as soon as he gets up to the front of the crowd, we see the background starts to kind of warp, and there's sort of a sound effect. And then he is imagining things, he's seeing things in the crowd that aren't there, he seeing ash raining down, he's seeing bright light flashing. So there's a lot to balance there in terms of getting across what's real, and what's not real. And then also kind of purposefully blurring the line when it's unclear what's real, and what's not. And on top of that, you want to clear a lot of that sound design. So you want to hear like, you know, the sound effect gets really, really loud, and then it'll cut out abruptly. So we definitely want to leave enough of the loud sound to come, you know, to establish that it's there before hearing it actually cut out. And then you know, not jump right into description after it goes silent. So the, you know, there's a lot in that scene to balance from, like, a sound design perspective, when there's so much happening, usually.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, I was thinking about that, actually, in quite a few different scenes during Oppenheimer, just what that balance looks like, and how tricky I feel like that can be for someone who's writing audio description.

Christina Stevens  
Yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of really good sound in that movie, and you definitely don't want to cover it.

Lee Pugsley  
Well, once again, you know, props to you for navigating all of that. And we'll go ahead and move over now to Samantha and Poor Things, most challenging scene to write A.D. for.

Samantha Manahan  
I'm gonna chime in with another dance scene, a music scene. That would be when, after Bella runs off with Duncan, and they're in Lisbon. And she's really coming into her own, she's sort of-- You know, she's introduced as very childlike. And so now she's like in her teenager phase in Lisbon. And she's involved in this, this, this dance sequence. And it's sort of, you know, it's always difficult to strike that balance between letting the music run and then also describing the action. So that was definitely a struggle. But then there's also what's happening between them. So it's not a romantic dance that they're having. There's this, this tension where she's really-- they're-- doing her own thing, there are these couples waltzing around her. And she's twirling and pinwheeling her arm and striking a pose. And it's making Duncan very uncomfortable, because, you know, he's realizing he can't control her. And so I think, pulling that, that thread of tension throughout that scene, I felt really challenging. Because you wanted, you want to let the music run, it's sort of odd. The instrument is, it's pipes and bellows, I don't even think it's a real instrument. I couldn't find it historically. So you've got sort of, you know, again, the scene is just a little bit off. But there's so much happening between the two of them. And it's really when you start to notice Bella's physicality changing, and so sort of portraying that, the ways in which she's growing and her journey of self discovery as a character. I felt like that was a really key scene for her. I really wanted to capture what was definitely happening between them, because it's a huge part of the story moving forward as well. 

Lee Pugsley  
Absolutely a big part of the story. And there's, yeah, a lot to capture with all of that as well. And even just like thinking about, like, you were talking about Bella's physicality, and how that changes over time too, you know, is something that sticks out to me as well in terms of like, the audio description, and how that was conveyed as well. These are all really terrific answers. And they're so enlightening to me and Alex about the whole process of A.D. writing, and narration. So now we're just going to hone in a little bit more and get a little bit more specific. And we have one question for each of you. And we'll take turns asking the questions about a specific aspect of the films you guys worked on. And Alex, I'll pass it to you. This question will be for Samantha and Poor Things.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, so Poor Things was one of my favorite audio description tracks the year but also on my favorite movies of the year. I really liked just the weird mood of it all. But one thing that really stood out to me was the end credits with the artwork that they had up. And I really, I saw it twice in the theater. The second time, I saw it with a friend. And I turned to him and I was like, "Listen to this description of this artwork." And I gave him my earphone so he could hear, and he was like, blown away. So I wanted to know your process and like, describing the actual art over the credits. 

Samantha Manahan  
Are you talking about the title cards? Or the end, end cre--? 

Alex Howard  
Yes, yeah.

Samantha Manahan  
The title cards---

Alex Howard  
Well, the title cards and the end credits, because I guess, for each section of the movie, yeah, they had artwork as well. 

Samantha Manahan  
Yeah, each chapter had a sort of surreal scene with a title depicting where they were. So London, Lisbon. And I was glad that the way that the movie, you know, it feels like a gift when you have time to actually describe those title cards. And they felt very thematic to me, sort of, so that, you know-- Thematic, but then also abstract. So the challenge with each of those title cards was, you know, how, how do you convey something that is a little bit out there, without giving too much of your own perspective of what it means. So that can be the challenge in description: how to remain sort of objective, but then also provide just a hint at, you know, what you're seeing. So I found each one of those cards, because they were they were so surreal, I think that I found myself really trying to come up with imagery that would, would, would sort of help walk people through that. So I think that, um, for instance, I think it was the... It's the card where there's the underwater hand, and she's descending down the fingertips like stairs. And so that sort of stuff, which is just how do you convey what's you know, what's going on, so that there's really, you're really capturing that image. So I found those a challenge, but then also, you know, I think really important in terms of the enjoyment of the movie, and the conversation that would, would, would happen around it. So those were definitely a challenge. And I was relieved, there was time to get into those. The end credits were-- those were challenging [laughs]. Those were challenging. There was, there was so much imagery, and actually, I-- This particular film, I didn't watch the whole thing through first, initially. Because I wanted-- it felt like a film where your first impressions, how does something land on you, would really matter in terms of how you could sort of distill the intent of the filmmaker. And so my first reaction when I got to that end credit sequence was panic. [inauduble], because, you know, it's so abstract. And the first time through, I wasn't exactly sure where everything was, or what we were, what we were looking at. And then as I really started to sort of peel it apart, it helped me go back and layer in some of the details earlier in the film, where, you know, the filmmaker didn't necessarily start sequences with establishing shots. So they're on the ship, but you're introduced to that scene by seeing Bella get out of a steamer trunk, and you have no idea where she is. She's just in this wood paneled cabin. And, and so you know, you sort of you want, you want the the audience to have the same experience. We don't know exactly where we are, and you hope that they trust you enough to sort of, you know, believe that you're giving them as much information as like you have available to you at the at the time. But that ship had so many interesting details. And it wasn't until I got to that end credit sequence that I could, could really sort of peel apart some of the more telling moments, I think, and use that to sort of go back and layer in the details. So I'm glad that that you found it enjoyable. And it was, it was definitely hard to write, but it was, it was satisfying. 

Alex Howard  
No, it was really great. Yeah, thank you so much. That was-- The end credits definitely pushed it over the top for me, like "Oh my gosh, this is soooo much."

Samantha Manahan  
Oh good. You know, because you get to the end and you're like, "Ohhhh, no!" There's so much writing left to go. Um, but it was, it was-- it was it was really fun to work with. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, especially like, just the way the colors were on that art. I could not tell you what the image was, it was just overwhelming with color. And so yeah, it was really great. I mean, I always when I'm in the theater, I always wait till the very end so I can hear who narrated and wrote the description, because I'm just curious, but it's always nice to have a little extra description in the credits as well. So that's great.

Samantha Manahan  
Yeah, I love it when there's an opportunity to describe what's happening, you know, while the credits are rolling. 

Lee Pugsley  
And we appreciate the fact that you did that too. Because there have been other A.D. tracks, you know, that I've seen. And you, you know there's like something going on in the background, or there's images of things, but they're just describing the text and not the actual imagery. So it was really nice to have the imagery described for us as well. And I have a question now for you, Christina, and your process with Oppenheimer. I know that we had already talked about, before, that Oppenheimer is this really like, dense dialogue heavy screenplay, and it just like flies by at such a rapid pace. And then you have like, all these characters, and it's just like, you have so many moving parts. Plus, you have the sound design. So when writing A.D. for that movie, like, how do you balance all of those pieces, making sure that everything is covered in terms of the characters, the action, but you're also not taking away from, you know, the sound design, and still giving room for moments to breathe. So it's not just like, wall to wall audio description versus with dialogue, and there's no like moments for space too.

Christina Stevens  
Yeah, it was definitely a challenge. And I think for me, it always starts with: not every moment has to have audio description. And there's definitely so many places where the sound effects or the score, or any auditory element, have to be favored over the description, because they add something to the movie that, you know, words can't at that moment. So I think if you start from that point of view, you're only putting in a description that is really going to enhance the scene. And then yeah, there are so many characters. The first time I watched it, I didn't even comprehend how many characters there were, because a lot of them seem kind of [laughing] the same. A lot of dark haired white guys, not gonna lie. And I actually did an entire pass. So, reading through the whole thing. And you know, it took like, a whole nine, nine hours, maybe, just to check that I had all the characters right. So anytime a name popped up in the description, stop and check, make sure. And you do find that, you know, there's characters that pop up once at the beginning, and then you literally don't see them for two and a half hours. But I think that kind of played into the story at large. That, you know, the Manhattan Project was this enormous undertaking, and it spanned a relatively long time. And it was so big and so complex, that someone really important to the project might have just a few fleeting appearances. But I felt like it was important to establish those people the first time you see them, you know, give them a tag, and then acknowledge them when they come back up later. 

Lee Pugsley  
That's quite a feat to figure all that out. Also, I really love what you just said about, "Can audio description, say something more than what the score or the sound can say in that moment?" And that seems like a really good question to ask when you're confronted with those sound elements. To decide, you know, whether or not there should be a piece of A.D. there, or if the other things say something more, in a more effective way than what a piece of narration might say. 

Christina Stevens  
Definitely. And I think, you know, description can get kind of repetitive if you're just trying to kind of fill the space. I mean, obviously, when there's a really long space, you can kind of get into it more while still allowing for other things to come through. But when things are tight, when there's a lot of dialogue, when there's a lot going on, you know, exercising some restraint is definitely, definitely part of it.

Lee Pugsley  
That makes sense. And, yeah, I feel like there was a nice balance that you were able to capture with that. Once again, just really terrific work on putting all of those puzzle pieces together and coming out with a very effective finished result. 

Christina Stevens  
Thank you so much. 

Lee Pugsley  
And Alex, I'm gonna pass it over to you now. This question will be for Liz and Maestro 

Alex Howard  
For Maestro, I know there was a lot with different time periods between the makeup and the aspect ratio and the color changes but then also narratively. So how did you strike the balance between telling us where and when the film takes place, and the aesthetic choices of the scene, but then also narrating the actual actions of the scene. 

Liz Gutman  
Maestro is interesting because, you know, a lot of movies will have text on screen that will tell you what year it is, or something. Maestro doesn't do that. They just kind of drop you into places and you know, change. It's color, and then it's black and white, and then it's color again, and then, you know. So my imperative is always to just follow the story; is to, you know, what's, what's happening? What's happening, what's happening? How can I best, most vividly describe that? Oh, and that-- marking the passage of time was anything from you know, certainly mentioning black and white color. But, you know, the gray that appeared at Leonard's temples at one point in the story that, you know, there was this big sort of time jump and went from black and white to color. And sort of mentioning how his appearance changes, and, you know, the age of their daughter. Again, just bringing our audience along with us on, "Oh, time has passed, we don't know exactly how much; this is kind of how everyone looks now." [chuckles] And just-- Yeah, making sure that, that that was all made clear, so that everyone was on the same page. You know, whether you're sighted or blind or low vision. 

Alex Howard  
No, that makes a lot of sense. I think the story should be paramount, like you said, in terms of-- you know, yes, they don't say the time period, but you know, you can kind of infer yourself as a viewer. So yeah, you want to, you're saying you want to like, describe what you can see, as opposed to like spoon feeding, which is good.

Liz Gutman  
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I can-- I know that when we first see, you know, young Leonard, I don't know exactly what year it is. You know, I could Google it and, you know, kind of make a best guess. Or, you know, there are some major events that are easy to find. There are also some, you know, fantastical sequences, that didn't really happen. But when we, when we see him as a young man, he's wearing this kind of boxy, loose cut suit that to me, screams 1940s. So at the very least, we can, you know, describe that. Then every-- again, everyone's kind of on the same page, you know, paying attention to the cars, to the hairstyles, clothing, all of that stuff. And, and yeah. As you say, doing our best to be descriptive and specific without, you know, without being condescending. 

Lee Pugsley  
And speaking of spoon feeding, I mean, I really enjoyed Maestro. I know that there's a variety of opinions on that. But also, that movie doesn't spoonfeed you anything. So you really have to read between the lines on everything. So when you said, you know, as an audience describer not spoon feeding everything there. That's very much in line with how Maestro goes as well. 

Liz Gutman  
Yeah...

Tristan Snyder  
As a blind person, you know, I really have to commend you, because there are unfortunately, places where, where describers will just be like, "Nah, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna summarize. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna hand them my interpretation of this movie." And that will be their interpretation of this movie. And as a, as a blind person, I don't like that. I don't like that. And I'm glad you didn't. It was really well done.

Liz Gutman  
Oh thanks, I think that means so much coming from you, Tristan. Truly, I really value your opinion. So thank you for saying that.

Tristan Snyder  
Well, thank you for writing such a beautiful script.

Liz Gutman  
[chuckles]

Lee Pugsley  
Awesome. So let's go ahead. And I have a question for-- well I have two questions for you, Stoney, one's about Barbie and one's about Zone of Interest. But I'll start with the Barbie question first. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Sure. 

Lee Pugsley  
One of the things I really, really enjoyed about the audio description for Barbie was the way that you were able to convey and capture the production design details. And also a lot of the comedic visual elements. And this is really exemplified, I think, within like the first 10 minutes when you know, Barbieland is first being described. And you're describing, you know, her taking a shower with no water and drinking with nothing in the cup and just like little things like that. But within the audio description, you were able to convey the tone of the movie so well. And I'm just wondering, what was that process like for you? How did you approach it to be able to pull that off as well as you did?

Stoney Emshwiller  
Oh, thank you. I guess I said this before, but it was definitely challenging just because it was such a surreal world. But I had two sisters growing up and they both had Barbie dolls. So I had a little bit of background. And we play with my G.I. Joes and their Barbies. All kinds of nasty things went on, but you know.

Stoney Emshwiller  
But working on-- you know, this is sort of a tangent, but when Samantha was talking about the closing credits and the title cards, it made me think of Barbie. And I wasn't planning on saying this, but if you don't mind, I'll tell you something that will help illuminate the process we go through. With Barbie, like with a lot of projects, I didn't have the final version. So a lot of times the time pressures are so great, and the deadlines are so tight that we get like a preliminary version, maybe without special effects or without certain sound effects or-- and so we're working from something that isn't finished. And then at the very end of our process, if we're lucky, we'll get the final version. And we'll update what we've done and make sure it all still works. So Barbie was like that. And I wrote the whole thing. And I got to the end and got to the closing titles. And I took my time and you know, "Produced by so and so," gave plenty of room for all these titles. Because there's all this space at the end of the movie, nothing going on. And made sure there was a lot of room for our voiceover actor to say all these tricky names, "Costumes by so and so, so and so, blah, blah, blah." So anyway, then we get the final version, I have a data update. And I go through the whole movie, and it's pretty much the same, which is great. I don't have to change anything. There's no like big, big differences in timing, which is always challenging. You've got to move all your all your voiceover stuff around to fit between new positions. There was none of that. And I got to the closing credits, and suddenly, I saw that there was a song that hadn't been there before by Billie Eilish. And I-- What-- I was just like, literally another, I'm a crier, like everybody here, the tears are coming down. And I'm like, "Oh, no, I am not putting all these credits over this song. I've got to move everything around. And I must have spent the entire day--hours--shifting around all these little voiceover things of like-- making life a nightmare, I'm sure, for our voiceover actress who had to now say, [speaking rapidly] Directed by so and so, written by so and so," because it's-- so that all these titles could fit before and after the lyrics of the song. The song was so beautiful, which as everybody here probably knows, it just won the Grammy the other day. But it was just another one of those cases where like, "Ah, this is the way it is, it's not going to change." And then something huge happens. And at least I could not live with myself if I went over that song with, with the lyrics, with the titles, the closing titles. But so yeah, a lot of our process can be tricky when it comes to not having the finished version as we write. And that's another case with Barbie where I was hoping that-- I got a lot of pushback on social media, understandable, because I didn't ever name America Ferrera's character, Gloria, because she isn't named in the movie. And we try not to give blind audience any more information or less information than a sighted audience. But it was so frustrating because she's like a main character in the movie, but she's never given a name. And when we got the final version, I was like "Oh, they must have, you know, they put in her name somewhere. Like an actor had his back to the camera and says, 'Hey, Gloria, how you doing today?'" No, didn't happen. So I get why people are upset that I didn't choose to like force name her. Totally understandable perspective, but sort of our policy, and it was hard. I really didn't-- It wasn't comfortable, not to name one of the main characters through the whole movie. Sorry, I went I went off on a long tangent there that didn't even answer your question. I apologize.

Lee Pugsley  
[laughs]

Lee Pugsley  
No, that's really interesting, though about-- I don't know that you don't get, you don't always get the final versions of the film. I mean, it makes sense. But it's just not something once again that I had really thought about and just the challenge that comes with that as well. And then for--

Tristan Snyder  
If it makes you feel better, I'm glad you didn't force name her. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Oh, thank you. 

Tristan Snyder  
Cuz I don't, I don't like having more information than the sighted audience. I don't think I'm special. You know? 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Yeah.

Tristan Snyder  
And I prefer not to know more than they do. I think that's, that's just my my philosophy. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Oh, thanks so much. I appreciate it. 

Lee Pugsley  
I agree with that too, Tristan. I like it when we know the same information as the sighted audience, but nothing more. Yeah, then you just feel like you're more part of the experience of knowing certain things and not knowing other things. For time sake, I'm just going to jump over there really quick to the Zone of Interest. And one of the key components of Zone of Interest, and a very big one at that, is the sound design that so much of the horrors of what's going on is really wrapped up in the sound design and what we don't see, but we hear. So when writing audio description for that film, was it hard to kind of find the balance of letting the sound design be put on full display and having its place so that the, you know, blind or low vision viewer could fully take that in, as well as making sure that there was the correct amount of audio description to enhance what was visually being shown? 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Totally. Yeah, very much like Christina was talking about with Oppenheimer, it's -- the sound design is sooo vital in Zone of Interest. And it's so much an important part of telling the story. In fact, it IS the story, really. Because we don't see what's going on behind the wall, we don't see what's going on in the camp, we just hear it. And so there'll be a scene of something mundane, which is kind of the point of the movie, there'll be something mundane going on, and yet you'll hear gunshots, or screaming, or dogs bark. And that's so vital to the story that I had to really tone down. If anything, I tend to decide on, to land on over describing sometimes, which is bad. But in this movie, I really toned down how much I added, because I didn't want to lose any of that. Very powerful sound design.

Alex Howard  
The description track is great, but unfortunately, only-- for some reason, the only place they have the description track is at Laemmle. And at Laemmle is where they give you the headphones instead of the box. And so I watched the movie with one ear on, so that even-- because even when there's no description going, it blocks the sound. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Oh no.

Alex Howard  
So I wanted, I wanted to hear the the sound design at the same time as the description. But no, it was really great that like you mixed it where I could hear both of them at the same, you know? 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Yeah, 

Alex Howard  
So would one wouldn't go over the other one.

Lee Pugsley  
I appreciated that as well. And I had the same experiences Alex, I went to Laemmle and had the big headphones that cover your whole ear. So I was listening with one headphone off and one headphone on. At some point, I will watch this movie again, hopefully with not bulky headphones as well. But yeah, I really appreciated the balance you struck with letting the sound design have its time in the spotlight. And Alex, I'll throw it over to you now. This question is for Tristan and Anatomy of a Fall. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, Tristan. So once again, thank you so much for describing my first foreign film in the theater. But for Anatomy of a Fall, specifically for narrating, I know you have to balance with the dub, and then with giving time to breathe, like we were talking about with other people. Probably as a narrator, you don't want to keep changing the speed of your voice. So how did you find the right timing? Or did you just kind of like have to follow the script, or how's that process for you?

Tristan Snyder  
Well, generally... Um, so this is, this is one of those things maybe, I don't know how much you know about the behind the scenes and how the sausage is made, so to speak. But oftentimes, companies that do audio description come from a captioning background. They use software that was originally intended for captioning to write their descriptions. And that means they go down to the frame of here's your in point. And here's your out point. And that's how much time you have. And that works, if you're just trying to get something done. My problem with that, both as a narrator and as a QC person, and as an audio engineer, is that it doesn't give the narrator any context. They don't get the audio cues, they don't get what they're trying to slot into. And so for me, I was very lucky in that Audio Eyes designed its scripts and how it writes, their, the description with blindness in mind, with audio description in mind. They didn't come from a captioning background. And they were able to-- What they do is, they take the audio cue, and they include it in the script. So their time codes give you a chance to hear what you're coming up to and what your endpoint is, and what, you know, what's coming after. So you have a much greater view contextually of what you're doing. So you can hear what's around you, when you're narrating. And for me that is priceless, I find that to be really helpful. When it comes to how to pace, how to read. If a, if a scene is sad, I don't want to sound like I'm smiling. If a scene is, you know, happy, I don't want to sound like I'm neutral. And I don't mean over the top of course, but I-- you know, you do put something into it. If you're if you're trying to be a part of the story in such a way that it does not jar the listener. And so for me, I was lucky to hear both the dub and the original language and the music and the sound effects and everything. So I was able to really understand how to read something. And I can even-- because I had the full track available, I can even go back a little bit and listen for more context if I wanted to, and just, just listen for a second and figure out what I needed to do in that spot. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases when when audio description is being narrated, you don't-- as a narrator you don't have that option. But I was really lucky in that I did. And I think for a foreign film that you're dubbing, I think it's really very helpful. More helpful, I think, than even just in an English language film. So that, that's, that's what helped me a lot in the narration of this movie. And I have to give kudos to Sean Boggs, who, who wrote the script. He did a beautiful job. I-- um, Audio Eyes allows you to do-- if you're, if you're a blind narrator, they let you do a little, a little extra QC. So there wasn't much I had to QC on this film. I was able to just, to just narrate it. But I also had the ability to get the context, which was really helpful. 

Alex Howard  
Great, thank you. Yeah, we we haven't really interviewed many narrators. So we don't know a lot about the narration process. So thank you for telling us that, that's interesting.

Tristan Snyder  
Yeah, a lot of narrators say they're stuck with, they're stuck with just going from cue to cue, I mean, from timecode to timecode. And they don't have any idea what's around them. They just have to take a guess as to what this scene is, what kind of context they're narrating within. And that's not always easy. And that's why, that's why so often you get neutral sounding narrators, regardless of the scene, because they don't know, they don't know. I mean, it's-- sometimes it's obvious, you know, "He stabs her in the stomach," you know, that's a problem, right? You, you kind of have an idea of what's going on with that. Or, "She smiles." You can you can work with that. But when it's just, "Outside, a car passes by. George watches out the window." You know, that's, that-- you don't have any idea what's happening. Is he interested in what's happening? Is he sad? Is he contemplative? What, what is, what is the-- What is the tone? And you just don't --You don't have any context. So to have that context is invaluable.

Lee Pugsley  
Definitely very invaluable. You're right. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Tristan, for your insight into this, we're gonna go ahead and jump over to you, Matthew and American Fiction. And my question for you is, I know that throughout, you know, the years, race and the protocol, kind of, for race and physical appearance and the way that they've been described in A.D. has kind of changed and morphed over time. What was-- I guess, how was it for you when approaching the aspect of, or the area of race in American Fiction, when writing the audio description?

Matthew Christoffersen  
I think the general rule has been for a while to kind of take a colorblind view of race and ethnicity unless it's plot pertinent. And of course, in this case, it certainly is. It's integral to the story. And I don't, I don't believe every character was identified by their race or ethnicity. But certainly, when it was, when it was called for in the scene, it was definitely called out. Yeah, I think there's a, there's definitely like a generational divide here. Like, I think younger people tend to-- to want to see it foregrounded. And whereas older people are probably more comfortable with taking a colorblind approach. I think in this, in this piece is it was definitely warranted to call it out. Since it's, it's basically the backbone of the story.

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah I agree with that. And it makes sense that the philosophy-- I like the philosophy of you know, if it's not pertinent to the narrative, you know, maybe it doesn't need to be called out. But I feel like it's probably a challenge for you, and probably all of you guys that write AD, of just figuring out when to describe, you know, the race of character. And just knowing that everyone around you is going to have so many different opinions. And there's so many different voices on there around preferences and stuff. And I'm sure that those are tricky dynamics to navigate sometimes as well. 

Matthew Christoffersen  
Yeah, it's very thorny. I don't think we-- So, like on the five judge panel that are judging the books at the end. And um-- Like, I don't think we I.D.'d the other three judges as white, but like, when they're staring across at Monk and Sintara. I believe that there was a mention of white judges and their black counterparts. Because it was thematically, it thematically fit with the scene. 

Lee Pugsley  
That tracks for sure. Well, once again, I commend you for the work that you did on American Fiction. And as you had talked about earlier, you know, just what sticks out to me about that film is the way that you are able to convey a character's emotional journey through the AD. And it's very beautiful and effective in what you did. 

Matthew Christoffersen  
Thank you. 

Lee Pugsley  
That concludes our time together today. Alex and I just want to thank you guys so much for being here. Congratulations once again, on the work that you've done on these films this year, and being a part of these Oscar nominated projects. And just wanted to let you know once again, to reiterate this, that what you guys do matter. That because of you guys, we as blind and low vision viewers are able to experience the magic of the movies in ways that we would not be able to otherwise. And the impact you guys have is just so far reaching. You know, we do believe accessibility matters. And we really appreciate you guys playing a part and making things more accessible for all of us. So thank you guys. 

Alex Howard  
Yeah, and especially like, I know, your guys' names aren't like on the actual credits of the movie. But for blind and low vision people, like you guys are an integral part of these movies. And you are tied-- I mean, I've told Liz before when she's been on the show, like-- To us, you guys are a little bit of like, celebrities. Like it's literally like, "Oh my god, we're talking to--" You know, we hear your name at the end of each movie that we watched. So thank you guys so much for being a part of this podcast and doing what you do.

Lee Pugsley  
And I know that you guys do a lot of work behind the scenes and just countless hours you spend on these projects that people don't realize how much effort and how much time and thought you guys put into what you do. So yeah, just know that we appreciate it. We see it. And we don't take it for granted. We're really, really grateful to you guys. 

Samantha Manahan  
Thank you. 

Tristan Snyder  
Thanks for having us. 

Stoney Emshwiller  
Thank you for your kinds words. 

Liz Gutman  
Yeah. Thanks for having us on.

Stoney Emshwiller  
Yeah. 

Christina Stevens  
So nice. Thank you.

Liz Gutman  
Our celebrity fees are in the mail, right?

All  
[laughing]

Lee Pugsley  
Exactly.

Alex Howard  
And for anyone who is wondering where you can watch these movies with audio description, you can check out the Audio Description Project at the A.C.B. website. And all of these are listed there. Some of them are in theaters, some of them are on Netflix and other various places.

Lee Pugsley  
And we want to go ahead and do some special thank yous. Alex, I'll pass it to you for that.

Alex Howard  
Yeah, we'd like to thank IDC and Deluxe and Audio Eyes for obviously describing these movies and allowing their narrators and writers to be on this panel with us today. And we'd like to thank Matt Lauterbach for doing the transcriptions for our episodes.

Lee Pugsley  
And if you have any questions or comments about anything we discussed today, you can reach us at DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com Once again that's DarkRoomFilmCast@gmail.com And you can also follow us on Instagram and YouTube @DarkRoomFilmCast. So yeah, thank you guys so much out there for listening or watching this and...

Alex Howard  
And we hope to do this again next year as well for our, hopefully, 2025 Oscars audio description roundtable. This was so much fun. 

Lee Pugsley  
Yeah, thank you guys. And yeah, all the best to all of you guys. 

All  
Thank you. Thanks

Stoney Emshwiller  
Thank you.