Only Me & Never You: Inside the Bizarre Mind of a Narcissist - Interview with Dr. Les Carter

The mind of a narcissist is wildly self-absorbed and oblivious to those around them. They are excessively focused on me, me, me.

Dr. Les Carter joins me to discuss what victims get wrong about the mind of a narcissist. He shares how our assumptions and misunderstandings create false hope, causing us to stay too long and to give too many chances.

To learn more about Dr. Carter: Visit Website & his Surviving Narcissism YouTube channel.

Dr. Carter's book: When Pleasing You Is Killing Me

In an exclusive interview on the Podcast Extra, Dr. Carter shares what he believes creates the shame-based narcissistic self. Become a subscriber to hear his opinions for only $5/month on either Substack or Ko-fi! Same great content in 2 different places: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse or https://ko-fi.com/kerrymcavoyphd

Transcript

Only Me & Never You: Inside the Bizarre Mind of a Narcissist - with Dr. Les Carter

Kerry: [00:00:00] Narcissists are very good at keeping us trapped in a toxic relationship with promises of change. I'm so excited to welcome back Dr. Les Carter, author and psychologist with the wildly popular YouTube channel Surviving Narcissism. He and I are going to talk about how to know when there's too much false hope and the relationship is too dysfunctional to continue for your well-being.
Dr. Carter, I am so excited to have you back on. You were definitely one of my listeners' favorite podcasts when I had you on last year. And this time I want to talk about something similar that we did before. Last time you focused a lot on narcissism and how they're kind of persistent in their personalities.
But one of the things I noticed that happens in these toxic relationships is that their partners and their loved ones get really trapped. They get so hopeful that this person is changeable. And I think there's even parts of it that maybe the toxic person hopes that there's nothing changes in the relationship.
I want to kind of unpack that with you. What you [00:01:00] see happening in these relationships. Why people get entrenched and find it difficult to leave. 
Dr. Les Carter: Well, when I was, I'm retired now, but when I was in my counseling practice, and I maintained a practice for 40 years in the Dallas and Texas area, one of the things I would tell my patients is your biggest mistake is you're thinking too much like a normal person, particularly if you're the kind of person that likes to think things through.
And I'm guessing that most of the folks that view or subscribe to your material the same as mine. And these are individuals who are on a search. And it's like yeah, they've got a curious mind, they're inquisitive, a very high percentage have an intuitive inclination. And that's probably one of the best things that you can bring to the equation.
You're the kind of person that says, I like to not only ask the why questions but I want to operate with why intact in terms of why I do the things that I do. And so then it's kind of like, let's assume, let's hope that other person's going to be the same way. And that's the fatal mistake. Because so many individuals don't really appreciate or understand the [00:02:00] fullness when we refer to a character disorder.
When you have a character disorder, what it means is the pathology that that person brings to the table is just so baked in that they cannot not be that way. I give you a very, very different kind of illustration. My wife is extremely musical. And she was trained as an opera singer but she wound up being a music teacher.
She sung in all sorts of like symphony orchestras and things like that. And if I were to say to her well just stop singing like you do. It's like, but it's what I do. It's who I am. And she has the skill set, she has the capability, she has the curiosity. It's baked into her personality. It's baked into who she is.
I don't have that. So if I were to show up at the Symphony Orchestra Choir and say, Hey why don't you put me in the bass section? I think I'll do pretty good. They would listen to me about three seconds and say, Get out of here. Some people have it and some people just don't. And I actually take that same kind of analogy and I apply it towards [00:03:00] psychological insights.
You're a therapist and you've been in the same situation. There are times when some individuals would come into my counseling office and as I would talk with them, it'd be like, Oh this person's going to be such a delight because they're so willing to explore and take responsibility. And then there would be some individuals over time as I would talk with them, it'd be like, This person's not catching on and they may say you're the sixth therapist I've seen.
It's like, well am I going to be any different from the previous five? Of course it's always the other person's fault. All I have to say sometimes individuals just simply don't have that insight capability. 
Kerry: What's so hard though is that they give enough information and feedback to suggest they are motivated. And maybe there is a level of motivation. Maybe we can speak to that. Like for example my ex would say, I've never worked harder to getting better. And I know other people have said, well I'm going to do something new. And then yet you don't really see a profound change in behavior. Do you think the toxic individual or the person with the narcissistic traits is [00:04:00] indeed motivated or what do you think they're really communicating when they say that?
Dr. Les Carter: Yes, they're motivated but with an entirely different mindset. The narcissists, when they say I'm motivated, what they mean is I'm motivated to make you different as opposed to I'm motivated to introspect. So the narcissist is what I refer to as outward focused. The healthy individual is inward focused.
The healthy person says, well I know there's some things on the inside of me. For example in our engagements with each other we get mad. And so I need to take a look at why do I respond to the anger that I have and, you know, what's cooking on the inside that makes me respond that way. When you talk to the narcissists and say so what about you?
The narcissists would say, yeah I don't like that anger either and it's because you do this and you do that and they're, that's their favorite word, you. And they're outwardly focused and they put it onto you. So yeah they'll say they're motivated but not in the way that's going to really produce true psychological change and adjustment.
Okay. 
Kerry: I often liken it to they're [00:05:00] motivated to have things stay stable. They don't really want you disrupting their life. So you getting ready to leave, that's a massive disruption. And I also think it's rejection and they don't want to be rejected. So I really think it's kind of more self-preservation than it is preservation of the connection with the other person.
Dr. Les Carter: It's so accurate. Part of the core definition of narcissism is that these are individuals who are self-absorbed to the core and in their self-absorption they must be in control. It's all about me. And so like you said, if somebody is over there not participating in the way that they want or they're not staying inside the groove that the narcissist has already carved out, then the narcissist says, uh yeah I have a problem.
My problem is you're not doing things the way you're supposed to do it. And so their problem, so they say, is little more than an accusation. So I always just tell folks in my office, why don't we focus on the one person you can do something about? And that's going to be yourself. And [00:06:00] whether they'll actually say it this clearly or not.
Their notion is, well my fine self would be okay if I just didn't have so many idiots around me. 
Kerry: Yeah I have noticed that. But they're very good at being emotionally manipulative. That's how I experienced it. I mean I thought it was sincere when I heard my ex say, but I really want this to work and I've never worked so hard.
In fact he would say things like, you know, don't you remember the early part of their relationship? Because we were married briefly. So. In that sweet spot right in the beginning, don't you wish we could get back to that? And I think, yeah I wish I could get back to that. I'm trying to get back to that. Do you think that that was a sincere expression of regret or do you think that was just maybe even idealism?
How would you understand that kind of dynamic? 
Dr. Les Carter: The idealism part, the regret and again the regret is, I regret that you're not continuing in that wonderful phase. So again, it's just an accusation but they have such poor insight. One of the things that's so common with narcissists is the lack of true insight with respect [00:07:00] to who they are.
For example if you were to say, you're being a bully, okay, so, and then you can highlight the things that they've done that's bullying, rather than them saying I respect what you say. And if that's how I'm coming across then I have some hard self-examination to do. You will not hear them say that. Instead it's like, me? What about you?
And they flip it right around. Their walls of defense are so high and so thick that when you say let's talk their response is, yeah I'll talk to you. And then here's the list of all the stuff that you should have done. And I'm sincere and I'm motivated and I want change but it's of a very different variety than what we as therapists really try to explain to our people is going to be workable.
Kerry: What I find though, and I'd love to know if you think this too, is that the people they tend to be in a relationship with are highly motivated to make it work and tend to be very optimistic. Do you think there's a certain personality type that gets attracted to this dynamic? I mean, how do you understand their partner piece?[00:08:00] 
Dr. Les Carter: Well, if I understand you correctly, too many times some folks can suffer from the nicest person you ever met syndrome. But too many times the person that stays extra long with the narcissist is the one that is more inclined towards appeasement and they want to be friendly, they want to be nice and friendly.
In fact, one of my major books is called When Pleasing You Is Killing Me. It's just like, look, I'm here, I'm available, I'm tuned in. When I give my commitments,

 I mean it, I have a loyalty factor. That kind of an individual is somebody that the narcissist is thinking, man I can make this work for me. And the person who's in that mode is like, well.
But I believe that I want to be conscientious and I want to be tuned in, and so it's a match made not in heaven and it's just one that the narcissist will exploit and the person in that more healthy role is thinking, I'm doing the best that I can. Why isn't this working? And then we go back to my original comment, it's not [00:09:00] working because the narcissist isn't thinking the same as you.
We can say that the narcissist doesn't have good self-reflection skills but they also have very high exploitive tendencies and that's not a good combination. 
Kerry: No, no it's not and it ends up then causing a tremendous confusion for the one who's in this relationship. Because what I hear often so many times is, but I feel bad leaving them, like what if they harm themselves or they say that they really are depending on me or this person is not doing well, they're not very stable or not holding a job or you know, they have all these things that they're supplying for this individual.
So how does the person determine when they're being manipulated and exploited? 
Dr. Les Carter: Well, there's a thinking pattern if you're adept at figuring this out that I refer to as imperative thinking. An imperative statement is very declarative, cut and dry, black and white and there's certain words that are the imperative words.
Have to, must, can't, should, supposed to, got to, need to and better. And one of the things that people will [00:10:00] recognize is, it's like, oh when I'm with that narcissistic I get those imperative thoughts either spoken or insinuated all the time. You shouldn't feel this way. You ought to be that way. You can't be like this.
Why didn't you do this? And so when you realize, I just feel like I'm living inside this tightly scripted agenda and I don't want to be inside someone's tightly scripted agenda, then it makes you realize that narcissist, and this is a very controlled style of communication, the narcissist is threatened by your independence.
Now let's just pause right there. Is independence a bad characteristic to have? And it's like, well I'm not very good trying to be somebody that I'm not. I have a free will and free will just simply means I have the privilege to choose for myself. You don't have to apologize for that. But the narcissist will say get back over here onto this agenda and stay inside the grooves that I've already established for you.
And then as you say, Hey look I'm not trying to be [00:11:00] disruptive. I'm just simply saying I'd like to be who I am. This is me. This is who I am. And the narcissist, like, they don't know how to be who they are authentically. And so when you say, well I want to be what I am authentically. It's like, no comprende.
It just doesn't compute with them. And so they're trying to put the imperative language on you. You're trying to operate with a free language which is the much healthier style. Their control is simply an illusion. They're not going to be able to control like they think they will. And so we're talking two very different psychological languages.
And it's a matter of you acknowledging, this is not being awful. This is a matter of us not understanding each other's language to the extent that the compatibility level just simply isn't going to be there. 
Kerry: It's such confusion in that spot. I mean I've been in that kind of a relationship and I found it agonizing.
I really couldn't tell the difference between what was a sincere expression of change versus what was just forms of manipulation exploitation. And for me, it was because I was getting both messages, [00:12:00] profound messages. And I think that a lot of people get stuck there, that we feel their love for us, but then we feel them almost loathing us.
It seems like they're making a lot of efforts and then they do the most horrific betraying kind of thing. The contradictory behavior and actions and words are so confusing. So there's almost like a cultural problem that we have that we don't teach people how to know what truth really is, that there should be consistency.
So how do you help people when they come or they tell you about these stories? What is really real? How do you help them determine what's real? 
Dr. Les Carter: Basically, I have certain just core bedrock truths that I hold on to. For example, I just mentioned the word freedom. Healthy relationships allow the freedom for each person to be who they are.
And if I say, well I feel this, and the other person says, well I feel something entirely different, free people will say, well let's, let's, let's put it out there. Or, and let's talk and say, in other words, we don't try to superimpose. Or another bedrock truth [00:13:00] is that there's this ingredient called empathy, you know plenty about that one don't you?
And it's a bridge from one heart to another. And so in healthy relations it's like, well what we're here for is to try to give each other the opportunity to know one another from our separate vantage points. And again narcissists won't do that. Or another core truth is every person has worth, every person has dignity, it's just part of their existence.
Let's make sure that we treat each other and by the way, you're going to, you're going to determine how well a person understands that one in the middle of conflict because I could still be in conflict with you and treat you as a worthy individual and show you respect. Narcissists can't do that. And then, you know, there's no such thing as one human being who's superior to another.
So egalitarianism is another core truth that we want to hold on to and so on and so forth. And so what we want to do with the person who's trying to come to terms with what's going on is we want to say, well let's measure what you're dealing with against these healthy characteristics of a relationship as it [00:14:00] ideally would be.
And then just ask the question, are both of you able to stay in that kind of lane? If so, you probably have a pretty good chance. But if, uh, if the narcissist is running completely counter to all of that, then it's curtains and it's going to be most difficult to have a lopsided, you know, one-sided kind of relationship.
Kerry: Yeah, what I discovered when I got done and really I did a deep analysis on myself was that I didn't realize that there's authentic loving behavior that didn't give mixed messages. People don't say one thing and then do something else, that there should be consistency and my was a serial cheater. So if you really love your partner, you don't harm them that way.
You just take a deep dark look at yourself and you start to make profound changes. But instead I got defensiveness, blaming, gaslighting, all type of stuff like that. Like for example, on another podcast episode, I was talking to Lisa Sonni who said, when she coaches people, they'll say, You know he's honest but he's lies.
And she said, so is he honest? 
Dr. Les Carter: He's an honest liar. [00:15:00] Honestly, he lies. 
Kerry: We'll say, but most of the time he tells the truth. Just someone said, well he's not. Well, which is it then? But there's, there's that kind of inconsistency that leaves us in this state of confusion. 
Dr. Les Carter: Okay. Now we have a term for what you just described and it's the term intermittent reinforcement.
You remember back in the days of experimental psychology? 
Kerry: Oh yeah. 
Dr. Les Carter: Where it's one thing for every five times that that rat pushes the lever I'm going to give him some saccharin. But you're going to create anxiety when it's like, you know, I may give you saccharin after two pushes. Now I'm going to give you some saccharin after 15 pushes.
Now I may give you some saccharin after 11. And the rat is like, what's going on here? And so they, they, that's intermittent reinforcement. It's not consistent. It's consistently inconsistent. And we humans can be very similar. It's like, well I did 17 different things with this person and it went really well.
And then we had three in a row where it fell apart. Okay. And then we got back and it went okay. And then we got back and then they [00:16:00] screamed at me. And then we got back and we had a very kind kind of interaction. And it's the consistent inconsistency in other words, intermittent reinforcement that, that can make you crazy.
And you have to pull back and you have to start asking what does the overall picture tell me? Those moments, those interludes of good, but then every time it seems to be disrupted, I don't exactly know when. And you're not making this up. And so people have to learn to trust and that's what the pattern is and it's a crazy making pattern.
You know, none of us are going to be so perfect all the time that we're going to be okay. But hopefully even in our imperfections we're not going to be exaggerated to the far extremes. 
Kerry: Yeah. In fact I, Dr. Lindsay Gibson, I got to hear her do some continuing education and she says, I know that I have met somebody who's used to unhealthy relationships when they say, "All relationships take work."
She goes, no that's not actually true. Healthy relationships are not that much work. But I think unfortunately

 there's this perception culturally that what you just described is [00:17:00] normal. I hated to say when I listened to you it's like, that sounds normal. But it's not. 
Dr. Les Carter: Yeah, actually I had a mentor way back in my late adolescence and all the way through my thirties.
And he and I were very close, he was the same age as my father but he was a very dear person in my life. I actually spoke his eulogy at his funeral. And one of the things he would say is, you know, relationships don't have to be that complicated. And to your point it's like, you know, show respect. And particularly when you're frustrated with each other, listen and tune in and admit when you're wrong.
How about that? How hard is that? That's it. Or, drop your defenses. You know why defend something that doesn't need defense? I mean there, there, there are certain things that we can just attune to. And in the healthy relationships it's like, yeah I'll do that. And the other person says, well I think I can pull it off too.
And unfortunately not nearly enough relationships will follow that kind of model. And it's, it's like you're constantly swimming upstream or pushing against something that just isn't going to be. And like your other person said, that's a sign of a not [00:18:00] very healthy relationship. Yep. 
Kerry: Yeah. Do you give much hope in those situations or not?
Dr. Les Carter: Well, again we go back and I'm going to use the term character disorder. A character disorder is such that just putting it in a common term those tendencies that they have for control and manipulation and defensiveness and irritability are just so deeply baked into who they are. That they are, they're just not going to be anything except that.
And so you have to just realize that's what I'm dealing with. And you have to ask, well am I willing to be the one that's going to carry the majority of the load? And I'm not, and it may be that it's a relationship where you can be minimalist and just maintain a certain amount of superficiality. In many cases it's like, this relationship just can't continue. 
Kerry: Yeah that's what I realized. I realized that he essentially wanted us to be roommates. Roommates with the benefit of his access to my money. 
Dr. Les Carter: How about that? Nice benefit. 
Kerry: I know, I know. As long as I was providing for things he had no problem.
But yeah it wasn't going to be really a reciprocal relationship unless I [00:19:00] was okay with that. I do think though, and this is I guess one of my final questions for you before we end it today, is that often the common question is, but they look so much happier in that subsequent relationship, maybe the problem was me all along.
And I know what my thought on that is, but I'd love to hear what you think. 
Dr. Les Carter: Okay. I'm going to say just straight up, but well, keep in mind narcissists are BS artists. And so, and so in that next relationship it's like, yeah they're going to throw out that same love bombing and that's sweet and friendly and kind of stuff.
And give it some time, whether it's six months or a year, three years, there's the old saying, no matter where you go, there you are. They're going to go to someone else, but there they are. And it will eventually show up in that relationship too. 
Kerry: Yeah. No, I know that too. I agree. And they're also fantastic at making great first impressions.
And so there's nothing better than social media than giving that opportunity to make a really good first impression. It doesn't mean it's real though. 
Dr. Les Carter: Oh yeah. They just can't, they can't sustain it, can they? 
Kerry: No, no it's just the Instagram look. That's all that [00:20:00] really is. Well, I thought of a question that I'd love to talk to you about in the podcast extra, and you mentioned it but we didn't dig into it, but I really would like to go into that deeper with you, and that is, you start talking about the narcissist's core, the makeup of their interior self.
Let's expand on that more because I've heard some say, well it's shame-based. Other people say, no it's kind of hollow. It's not really well defined. So let's you and I kind of expand that further and get into what you think we would find if we could peek into the head of a narcissist. Thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Les Carter: You know you're one of my favorites so I still appreciate you what you're doing. So thanks for having me. 
Kerry: Oh thank you so much. You're one of my favorites too. Absolutely. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD.
And whether you're in, considering leaving, or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my Toxic Free Relationship Club. You can learn about [00:21:00] this resource as well as others at kerrymcavoyphd.com. And I'll see you back here next week.