Bill Eddy's Best Advice For Dealing with Narcissistic Bullies
Kerry: [00:00:00] There seems to be an increased rise in bullies in our country and in the world. And today, I'm so excited to be introducing Bill Eddy, author of many books on high-conflict resolution in relationships. He's also a therapist, a mediator, and an attorney. You may know him for his book "BIFF," which stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm. He also recently wrote a new book called "Our New World of Adult Bullies." Today, he and I are going to talk about bullying behavior: what it is, why it is on the rise, and what you can do about it if you're struggling with it in your life. I'm super excited to be joined by Bill Eddy. I don't know how you can be in the narcissistic abuse arena and not be familiar with his work because he wrote "BIFF," which stands for a technique to use with highly conflictual persons. But he has a new book out, "The New World Order of Adult Bullies." So, I'm thrilled that you're here joining me today. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself because I wasn't aware that you wore so many different hats.
Bill Eddy: Okay. The first hat was as a licensed clinical social worker doing child and family therapy in the 1980s and early 1990s for about 12 years. But I really like conflict resolution and mediation and volunteered at a community mediation center in San Diego where I'm based. Because of that, I thought I wanted to do more mediation work, and lawyers were doing mediation, but there weren't a lot of mediation jobs, so family divorce mediation and all of that. So, I went to law school and decided to practice law for a couple of years while I was doing mediation, but I ended up doing law for 15 years, representing clients in family court while also doing out-of-court divorce mediation. So, two careers on top of my counseling career—three hats together. In 2008, I co-founded the High Conflict Institute with Megan Hunter, who had been a court administrator, to focus on training professionals in dealing with high-conflict personalities, including narcissistic personalities. Now it's 2024, so all put together, about 40 years with some of each of these careers.
Kerry: It gives you a very unique perspective: one of what happens legally but also what's happening psychodynamically or interpersonally. I'm curious, what prompted you to write "Our New World of Adult Bullies"? What did you feel like you needed to speak into with that book?
Bill Eddy: Well, I started during the end of 2020, which was the first year of COVID, and a couple of things were happening. One is in the news, we were seeing a lot of bullying around masks, around vaccines, around the George Floyd murder, and around protests with the George Floyd murder. On both sides of these things, people were getting a lot of attention for really bullying each other—bullying people in stores, bullying people on the street. I've worked with bullies in families, domestic violence, parental alienation, stuff like that. I've worked with bullies in the workplace. I've worked with bullies in legal disputes, and I thought people need to know the patterns of bullies and not get hooked into them because they can really diminish your self-esteem or get you angry at somebody else that you maybe really shouldn't be angry at, that you don't even know. People start hating people that they didn't even know. So, I wanted to explain the same patterns at all levels of society and also some of the background of it and my theory that these bully personalities really overlap with personality disorders and that they really may be ancient personalities that thousands of years ago these personalities may have thrived. But today, they don't work well in an office or in a home. So, I wanted to explain we shouldn't be angry at these people. We should learn to set limits on them and have consequences and maybe even coach them to change their behavior if that's possible. So, I wanted to give the big picture, I guess, as well as what to do.
Kerry: What I really like about the way you laid it out is you described the dynamic in the chapter, and then you also described some of the stereotypes or the assumptions that we commonly make. Then, you kind of break that stereotype apart by saying why it doesn't work. I'm curious, why do you think we develop these myths about bullying behavior that, when you actually try to practice it, don't work?
Bill Eddy: Well, I think two things. I think human nature is to be open to people; we're very social creatures. So, we're very forgiving and think, "Oh, they made a mistake." So, people really take a long time to catch on to, "Hey, this is a bully. I'm being bullied, and I have to do something about it." So, there's that. But I also think that our culture really promotes fantasies about bullies. Like, there's a lot of movies that show people being a bully at the beginning of the movie, and at the end, they have this insight about their behavior, and suddenly they become more lovable and friendly. Sometimes I call it the "Jack Nicholson Syndrome," because he's in a lot of movies where that happens. He's just a total jerk at the beginning, and at the end, he's kind of warm and cuddly. That's not real life. I want people to know it's very unlikely that their behavior will change, especially if there's no form of intervention. And that's what real life is. But most people haven't experienced it also because bullying mostly goes on in private, so people don't know how it works and the extent to which it exists.
Kerry: What do you think is the biggest myth that we culturally hold about bullying behavior?
Bill Eddy: I think it's the first one I address, which is that they will stop themselves. They will come to their senses; they will realize this is bad behavior, and that I probably don't need to do anything, and it will stop. So, the biggest myth is that they will stop themselves when, in fact, usually we're going to have to do something—either some kind of intervention or getting away from the bully. But they really don't seem to have the self-control that our culture thinks they do.
Kerry: Do you think we actually have the means as a society to curb behavior, to affect behavior? When you talk to victims, they often feel like they've been exhausted. They've gone to the extent that they can, and they still end up feeling in a very helpless position.
Bill Eddy: Well, I think because I'm a lawyer, when you really look at the history of the legal systems and such, laws and rules were established to curb the worst behavior. Over the evolution of humanity, we've developed more and more refined rules. So, you can say certain things, but you can't yell fire in an auditorium. You can do certain things, but your freedom ends where my nose begins. Part of our culture is to set limits on behavior. I think what's happened in the last 30 or 40 years is a good thing and a not-so-good thing. One good thing is we've really opened up society, and people can travel; they can meet people from anywhere in the world. We've increased access to justice. When I became a lawyer, that was a big part of the legal system: we want everyone to be able to afford coming to court and being heard. So, fees are waived if you're low income, and you don't have to have a lawyer to go to court. All of this openness is good, but the not-so-good part, I think, is the media culture with images of extreme behavior. When you think of it, entertainment gets attention because it shows extreme behavior. A well-functioning society works because we don't use extreme behavior or we have limits on it. We're really shifting society from being mostly working and functioning to, in many ways, becoming an entertainment society, which values the exact opposite behavior. So, that's the maybe not-so-good part. We have all these media sources, cable 24/7 news, social media—all of this is really showing images of bad behavior. Yet, if we did those in our home, if we did those in our workplace, they wouldn't work, and we're starting to see that. It's kind of like life imitating art, and it's happened without us even realizing it. But to me, that's the stark difference: a well-functioning community, relationship, has lots of rules and expectations and responsibilities, but the entertainment culture doesn't have rules, really, and responsibilities because it's fictional. But we're getting fiction now mixed up with reality. I think that's a big part of it.
Kerry: It's interesting. I can't remember exactly the name of the film. It's like when Roger Rabbit met Jessica. Remember that film that had the mix of the cartoon with reality, and there were discussions about the impact that was going to have? There'd be a blending of fantasy with reality. Now, it didn't happen in that way, although AI is certainly bringing in a new component that's really super scary. But it is interesting how there has been this confusion of what civil behavior is. I know a lot of people do blame social media. It feels that way. I mean, but I don't know if it's always historically been this way or if it's just my awareness that has changed.
Bill Eddy: I think we've had it before social media for maybe 10 years before that. When news went into the courtroom, when news went into Congress, then we started seeing court and Congress as entertainment. And Judge Judy and all of that. And people get excited. They like the adversarial because that's what drives drama: crises and evil villains and superheroes. So, we had that. Then social media sped it up. I think that's the thing. Social media—we know research shows us that false statements on social media travel faster and farther than true statements. My theory is, and when I've read the research, it says that false statements have more emotion to them, and I think it's because of the emotion. Emotions travel farther and faster than facts and boring discussions of reality. So, what social media has done is speed up our exposure time and our reaction time. So, we're now more emotional, and we're reacting fast with emotions and reflecting less. So, social media heightened emotions and reduced reflection. Now add the pandemic to that. I think that really was the ultimate because we were on screens all the time and not interacting with real people. So, I think people lost some social skills with the pandemic, and we're still seeing the outcome of that. We're more emotional, less reflective, and quicker to respond with not very smart responses.
Kerry: It's interesting that you use the word "bully" versus why not use the word "narcissism" or some other word? What caused you to land on that word?
Bill Eddy: Because I wanted to make it broadly accessible to people. For much of the last 15-20 years, actually, as a professional, I've been focused on the term "high-conflict personalities"—basically, people with personality disorders or traits who are in conflicts, and that's what I saw in the legal system. So, I've been talking about high-conflict personalities, but I find the average person thinks of the same thing, really, as bullies. Bullies—everybody knows kind of what a bully looks like and how they act and how uncomfortable it can make you feel. So, what I explain in the book is I think that the foundation, there's three personality disorders that may be present in a lot of bullies. Narcissists may be the biggest one, but also antisocial because of their lack of remorse and very aggressive behavior, and also borderline with wide mood swings. Male borderlines seem to be the most prevalent in domestic violence. Research says that male borderlines and antisocials are the most overlapped with domestic violence.
Kerry: We don't talk a lot about the male borderline personality disorder. Why do you think we don't focus on them much?
Bill Eddy: Historically, people have mixed up male borderlines as antisocial. You think of a lot of criminal behavior and violence and more associate that with antisocial, more criminal. But the big study I looked at that came out in 2004-2008, done by the National Institutes of Health, showed that borderline seemed to be about— their statistic was 46% male, 54% female. So, almost equal. I know Marcia Linehan, the borderline expert that we hear about the most, agrees with that and says that male borderlines are just about as prevalent as female borderlines. I think the big difference is, historically, female borderlines have gotten treatment or attempted to get treatment, and male borderlines certainly don't seek treatment and haven't been recognized as borderlines by mental health professionals. But good research shows that male borderlines and male antisocial personalities are the two personality disorders most common in domestic violence. They're both in Cluster B. Let me say a little bit about Cluster B. Cluster B in the diagnostic manual includes borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, and histrionic, which is more dramatic. But research now tells us Cluster B tends to be domineering, vindictive, and intrusive—all four of these kind of as a cluster. And to me, that's describing bullies: domineering, vindictive, and intrusive. Bullies want to know what's going on in your head. "You have to tell me your secrets, but I won't tell you mine." They're domineering, and they're very vindictive. "I don't get my way, I'm going to hurt you." We see that in families, workplaces, online. Especially, we see it today in politics, international relations, in business. So, that's why I like the word "bully." It's a comprehensive term.
Kerry: They're so difficult to spot in the beginning because the self-confidence that they lead with—their full chest—is a very appealing quality. Why do you think we miss that this is actually a danger sign, not something that we should see as admirable?
Bill Eddy: I think it's human nature. We default to being trusting, and people might be surprised to know that. But if a stranger comes up to you and asks for directions or what time it is, we want to help. I fly a lot. This year, I took some trains more than usual. At airports and train stations, people are often lost and confused and will come up and ask a question, and everyone wants to help. There was a movie years ago that said airports are one of the happiest places because people get to greet their relatives and friends arriving. It was a Hugh Grant movie. It was a rom-com kind of thing, but we just default to wanting to help people. Consequently, we're suckers when it comes to bullies because they know this about us and play on that. Of course, narcissistic bullies are probably the most skilled at this. Charm—we now say charm is a warning sign. It doesn't mean someone's going to be a bully or a narcissist, but most bullies and narcissists are very charming because that covers up the other side of them.
Kerry: Yeah, they're very good at the first impression, but boy, they're lousy when it comes to sustaining a relationship. I think what frustrates survivors so much is that it's difficult to get out. They want to burn the whole world down. They certainly want to destroy you in that process. How can we navigate that in a more sophisticated way? Because I'm thinking of someone right now that literally this person is exhausting her emotionally as well as financially in this process. Just won't end; won't give her closure, wrapping up their divorce.
Bill Eddy: Yeah, well, divorce is particularly difficult with this because that's where the domineering and vindictive can really come out. I see that in a lot of what I'm used to calling high-conflict divorces. Several things I think. For one, getting a therapist can really help. Don't go it alone. In my book, I have six strategies that I address with each of these patterns of behavior. The first is really recognizing I'm dealing with a bully. I'm not dealing with an ordinary person. I'm not dealing with someone who can stop themselves. So, they're going to need to be stopped by me, by other people, or by getting away from them. The second is pulling the plug on them. You may be participating; you may be keeping things a secret that shouldn't be kept a secret. You may be supporting in some ways because you feel obligated to. So, check yourself: am I supporting the bully in any way? Can I pull the plug on those things? Especially secrecy.
Kerry: What would be an example of a secret?
Bill Eddy: Oh, don't tell anybody that I've hit you.
Kerry: Oh, that kind. Okay. Don't talk about what's happening in the house. Right. Okay.
Bill Eddy: Yeah, so that black eye is—don't tell anybody where you got that. Tell them you fell down on a doorknob, you know, or you were drunk or something like that. I'd say most bullies tell their victims, survivors, "Don't tell anybody. Don't say what really happened." I have examples in the book of that. There's a touching example: the young woman assistant to the New York governor. Apparently, he was touching her way inappropriately. She was keeping it a secret, thought to herself, "I'm going to take this to the grave." Then he's on TV saying, "I've never touched anybody inappropriately, and I've never done this and that." She was horrified because the impression she got is this is probably going on with other people. So, she talked to the administrators, and it eventually led to him resigning when it came out in public, but she was very brave to no longer keep that a secret. I saw that in other examples too, where when people stop keeping it a secret, then action was taken and the bully was stopped.
Kerry: It's tough because, you know, I shared with you before we went on air that I also survived a narcissistically abusive relationship. That's one of the things he established right from the beginning: what happens in this relationship needs to stay in this relationship. He kind of laid a rule down. But the other piece for me that made it so difficult to talk about was I felt shame for his shameful behavior. I owned what he did, even though I know it wasn't me, and I didn't even blame myself. I know I didn't make him do those things, but because we're a couple, and it creates an identity as a couple, when he really does something horrifically awful, I feel like it's a reflection on me too.
Bill Eddy: Right. Exactly. And people lose self-esteem, become immobilized. In fact, I talk about how bullies immobilize people. They immobilize your defenses, and self-esteem goes down. It gets harder to get out rather than easier. By explaining that in-depth in the book, I hope people get the idea that people need help to get out. One example I gave was the famous musician in the UK, FKA Twigs, who got into a domestic violence relationship with a guy in LA. She lost self-esteem, felt trapped, and felt depressed. After a year, somehow she sought a therapist, and they helped her get out of that. But the reality was she was a wealthy woman. She owned property in the UK, and she could have just taken a plane and in 10 hours been back home, but she couldn't move herself. She was immobilized. To me, her telling her story is so helpful because she sued him, and I don't know if the case is finished yet, but she wanted people to know, and that's a lot of my goal with the book. I want people to know what mostly goes on in private because so many people are experiencing this.
Kerry: Yeah, it is really hard. That's why I shared my story as well and wrote "Love You More," because I want people to know that you can even be a psychologist and still get trapped in one of these relationships. In fact, my sons, at the end when I had this big conversation with my adult sons, I was feeling really ashamed. They looked at me and said, "Mom, he used your best qualities against you." That felt so releasing because that's what they do. Like you had said earlier, they're very good at weaponizing our natural trusting, good nature, our desire to be cooperative and collaborative. They utilize those things against us.
Bill Eddy: Absolutely. One thing that I realized working with a lot of cases over the last 40 years is a surprising thing, and that's about apologies. Apologies are very common in abusive relationships, only the wrong person's apologizing. It's like, "I'm sorry I didn't do this right. I'm sorry I didn't do that right." I did a mediation once, and the parties agreed. It was a divorce mediation, and there had been domestic violence. But at one point, the guy pulls out a crumpled-up note and says, "See, remember when you admitted it's all your fault?" "I'm sorry I don't clean better. I'm sorry I don't cook better." This person was trying to calm a bully from hurting her. That's one thing we teach: don't apologize to a bully. Basically, with 80 to 90 percent of people, apologies are simply what they are. I say I apologize at least once a week to people I work with. There's something I forget, I mess up. "Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that." But when you're dealing with a bully, when you apologize, you're putting yourself one down, and that's their goal. They're going to manipulate that. So, that's a very paradoxical thing, but I see it in a lot of abusive relationships.
Kerry: Do you think female bullies are different than male bullies?
Bill Eddy: I don't think fundamentally. I think the nuances are different, and there's different skills. I think in many ways that female bullies have better verbal skills and also much better at playing the victim. I think of an antisocial bully who was a woman who came to me for help with her divorce. I worked with her maybe for a month or so; there were no court hearings. Well, she was antisocial. She was total lies. I found out her job was taking care of an elderly man. She said she was doing that. "Oh, it's such a good thing. You're such a good person doing that." Well, at some point, she disappeared, and I get a call from the elderly man saying, "She mentioned you were her lawyer. Can you help me? She stole $50,000 from me, and I don't know where she is now." I said, "Oh my goodness. Call the elder abuse people, but I don't know where she is either." I did some work that I haven't been paid for. She was telling big stories about her ex-husband being the worst person in the world. I was getting ready; we were going to end up going to court. I think it was all made up. I don't think anything she told me was true. I must say she was short, cute, charming, and just someone you'd really want to help—likable. I think that's the female bullies, and especially female narcissists, female antisocials, can pour it on, and they know they're pouring it on.
Kerry: I know you and I could talk forever. There's so much I want to ask you, but we need to wrap it up. I thought of something I want to follow up with you over on the podcast extra, and that is, what do you think of using gray rock or yellow rock as a legal method in a conflictual or tense divorce, like particularly a custody case? I want to follow up with that over there and talk about what should you do? Is that wise to do that? Thank you so much for joining me. How can people find out more about "Our New World of Adult Bullies" and more about you if they're interested in following up with this?
Bill Eddy: Well, they can get the book anywhere. It's a paperback, an e-book, an audiobook on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and they can find me and the book, if they want, on our website at highconflictinstitute.com—high, H-I-G-H, conflictinstitute.com. We have a lot of free articles as well as we do consultation, books, video training, all of that. The only thing that's free is the articles. But we have a lot of low-cost information, and the books are like less than $20. So, we got a lot of books on things to do to deal with high-conflict situations.
Kerry: Well, thank you for being in this arena, for helping so many of us deal with very difficult situations. I deeply appreciate that, and I deeply appreciate this interview today. This was really fascinating. So, thank you so much, Bill. I appreciate it.
Bill Eddy: Well, thank you, Kerry, and thank you for your good work.
Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in, out, considering leaving, or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my Toxic-Free Relationship Club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at kerrymcavoyphd.com. And I'll see you back here next week.
