Why Family Court Too Often Takes the Side of the Narcissistic Abuser

Have you noticed that too off family court becomes just another battle ground for the narcissist?

Lisa Sonni joins me this week to discuss post-separation of abuse. Most of us passionately want to protect our children from our toxic ex only to experience more helplessness in the mediation and courtrooms.

To learn how to tip the scales in your favor legally, join me for the Podcast Extra interview by becoming a paid subscriber. Learn the common mistake too many parents make, and what to do instead. Get immediate access here: https://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse?utm_source=edit-profile-page

Resources Referenced:
Emotionally Bulletproof Kids
https://strongerthanbefore.ca/webinar-bulletproof-kids

When Dad Hurts Mom by Lundy Bancroft: https://amzn.to/3Xbg8mj

Angela - Family Court Corner: https://www.familycourtcorner.com

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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Transcript

Why Family Court Too Often Takes the Side of the Narcissistic Abuser
Kerry: [00:00:00] Every parent's worst nightmare is having our kids abused, but what if the toxic person is the other parent? Today, Lisa Sunny joins me to talk about how to navigate leaving a difficult relationship when there are kids involved.
I cannot tell you the number of times, Lisa, that I have heard from victims or survivors that one of the reasons they don't leave a toxic relationship is because they have children. They think, "How in the world do I leave this relationship? I can exit the relationship. I can get out of having contact with this partner. But that's my child's parent, and I'm essentially abandoning this child," and they have so much guilt. I know that you've experienced this personally. I haven't. I also know that you coach people, and this is a common problem. So help me understand what the dynamics are around this issue.
Lisa: It's so heartbreaking, and I'm going to offer a perspective shift after what I say. What I [00:01:00] see is that people feel like if we split up, the assumption, let's say, is that you're going to share custody 50%. And when we say children, right, we're talking about children under the age of 18. I know it can be a wide range. But at any age, particularly as the children are younger, what I see around the fears is that those children are defenseless, and they can't protect themselves from the abuse. So I need to stay to protect my children. On the flip side, when they're teenagers or a little bit older, what I see is this fear that the children are not going to be able to emotionally protect themselves or that they're going to become like their other parent. So I can't leave. I have to wait until my youngest is 18 so that I can make sure that they can protect themselves. Here's the logic that I think is flawed: We become what we know. We become what's normal. And so many people think that you can protect your children when they're in it. But the shift that really happened for me was realizing that 100% of their life is abuse. [00:02:00] I know that there are moments of not abuse. I'm not saying 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but 100% of their life is abuse. They're witnessing abuse or experiencing abuse. And I just want to be clear too that we're talking about emotional abuse, right? Physical abuse, when it comes to children, is a totally separate topic. If your children are witnessing this in every aspect of their life, there's no escape. And they never see happy. If you leave, and let's even say your worst nightmare is that it's 50/50, and you have to shuffle them back each week, 50% of their life is abuse. But do you see how mathematically 50 is half of 100? So what you're actually doing is improving your children's lives. I wish everyone could see it that way. And I know that there are unique circumstances. But the thing is with kids, most people think, "People can leave, but I can't leave because my ex is so awful, and my situation is worse than anybody's." And it's not. I can assure you, as a person who speaks to thousands of parents a year talking about this very topic, everyone thinks their situation is so unique. And it's really not that [00:03:00] unique. So if you have to stay, I'm not judging, you know, certainly that people have all these circumstances that make them need to stay longer than they should or financials, but I'm talking about the people who absolutely know they need to leave. And the sole reason you're staying is to benefit your kids. Because it is harming your kids. It is harming your kids, full stop, period, the end, to witness this abuse. They're watching it be tolerated by you, and even when we think that we're protecting them, I'm not really sure, despite the thousands of people I've ever spoken to on this topic, what they mean by protecting. Because it's still happening, you're just with them. You can hold space for them at your house, and you can have conversations. Now, I hosted a workshop called Emotionally Bulletproof Kids. You were a guest on that. And to me, it was one of the greatest conversations. I wish more people even knew that this existed because trauma therapists, a child therapist, you, who have training in both adult and child mental healing, were all on this. Talking about what you can actually do to help your kids. You want to build that strength and [00:04:00] resilience and boundaries. You can do those things and hold space for children who are going through this while not standing in the kitchen right beside their father or mother who's being abusive to them. And I don't think the children do feel protected, to be honest. I think that they don't understand why it won't stop depending on their age.
Kerry: Well, in fact, I was going to ask you, what do you think parents who stay are trying to do by staying? There's what they say, but let's talk about what they're actually practically, psychologically trying to do. I think in some cases...
Lisa: I think that they're using their children as an excuse to stay because they're afraid to leave. Now, that's not all. Trust me, that's not all. I think that there's also this idea of breaking up a family. And especially with this particular type of abuser, who's the father of your children, you will hear a lot of, "Your children are gonna come from a broken home because of you. I can't believe you're leaving me just because I cheated. I only hit you once," or "I'm not that bad, and we're both bad, and you're really gonna destroy our children's lives for one stupid mistake?" They put [00:05:00] all that on you. If you're religious, my goodness, they're going to go into even more of your obligation to stay, and forgiveness, and family, and your vows, and all that. But I think what people are—they're telling themselves that they're protecting their kids. But I think they need to tell themselves that so they don't have to face what the reason really is that they're staying because there's no research to support staying when it comes to that being your...
Kerry: ...reason. I don't think most people know that though, that there has been a huge body of work that's come out saying that it's not in the child's benefit to stay. It used to be—I mean, I'd have to say in the '80s and '70s—the philosophy and the research were biased and said that this was a better situation. But I don't think the new body of research comes out supporting that in any means at all. But here, I do think this is another idea I want to float past you. I do think there's a group of parents—and I know that I probably would have fit into that category had it been my situation—where we over-identify with our children, we're emotionally fused with them. And so we then feel [00:06:00] their pain, and the idea of this child being vulnerable, facing off this very intimidating, aggressive person, or manipulative person, is terrorizing. What? What are you thinking when you're—you have this interesting look on your face right now. Wish the people who are listening could see what you look like right now.
Lisa: You've brought a memory that I... It comes up for me every so often of standing... My daughter was one, and I stood over her crib at like midnight. I was alone. He was already gone. And I stood over her crib, and I looked at her. She was asleep. And I said, "I'm so sorry. This is what I've done to you. And I'm so sorry that I can't protect you." I was already... At that point, I was even out, but I was feeling like, "She's going to be a little girl who sees this." And I really was so identified with her. I have a son, but it was my daughter's crib that I was standing over, not my son's. And I was really thinking about what it was going to be like if I couldn't make it out because I was being hoovered huge to get back. He was begging constantly to go back, and I was torn. And honestly, I was [00:07:00] pretty convinced I was gonna go back as long as he just did the couple of things that I needed him to do, which he obviously never did. I felt what it was like to be her, or at least I thought that I did. And I felt like, "Would it be better if she had both of us? And is this emotionally better to come from an intact family?" My parents are divorced. And I see that a lot too in people that are like, "My parents are still together. So that means a lot to me," or "My parents were divorced. So I don't want to be." And we're not really just looking at it objectively. And I'm not criticizing that because this is human psychology we're talking about. It's not simple. It's not black and white. There's no easy answer. But I was definitely feeling things for my children and thinking about how I could stay to make it good for them when I didn't know anything about what research supports leaving. A great book, by the way, is When Dad Hurts Mom by Lundy Bancroft. People know all about his Why Does He Do That? But When Dad Hurts Mom... Now this takes me a little bit into this thought that what I see in my coaching practice is that people are very focused on, "But family court won't [00:08:00] protect you." Now to say that I have a strong opinion on that is an understatement, which is not most people's opinions. I watch Family Court protect so many people. I no longer buy into that Family Court just doesn't protect people. There are unique cases, there are situations, absolutely. I'm not saying it's easy or fun or perfect. I'm saying that I watch it work, and I watch it successfully protect children, and I want people to think about who the people are that have successful outcomes and that do successfully protect their children, and try to look at what they're doing for their children, rather than going down the rabbit hole of, "I can't leave because Family Court's just gonna hand my children to my abuser, and then they're going to be abused, and I can't help them," because that's just unequivocally, indisputably not true. But it's very hard to get into that new mindset. I don't pretend for a second that you're just gonna hear me say this and go, "Oh, I like that. I get it. I teach that." And I work with someone often who does also teach that [00:09:00] family court corner, but Family Court is difficult. You can't live your life in fear of a system that people say is unwinnable when people win and have successful outcomes all the time.
Kerry: No, the court system is very invested in the best outcome possible. The problem is that we go in, and we often are antagonistic to the system and create a contentious relationship with the court, which adds all sorts of problems when we are psychologically seeing them as a competitor. Instead of seeing them as an effort to collaborate with us, they're also really trying to work with both sides.
I just had the interview with the two Toronto mediators. People don't like the idea that there needs to be fairness, somehow a splitting of things. When we feel so victimized by this person, this person has been so exploitive of us. And it comes back to, like I said, this enmeshment with our kids. We do identify with them. We feel their pain. We don't want them to be injured. The idea that they're going to have to be alone with this person and navigate that relationship is terrifying. Brad and I had a decent relationship. He may not always have been the best parent. Sometimes he came down [00:10:00] too harsh. I remember wanting to step in and get involved and do things differently with him. And this is the advice I got, and it was such painful advice. I've given the same advice to you. And that is, your children must figure out their own relationship with that parent. And they don't like hearing that. You're thinking, "But they're only two." And you're saying they have to figure it out at two? Yes, they have to figure it out at two. Because you know what? They had to figure it out with you too.
Lisa: Yes. We like to figure ourselves. You're safe.
Kerry: And they need to figure...
Lisa: ...out that the other parent isn't safe, but I know when you said it to me, "Let the child sit in the paradox." I'm like, "What? You just let them sit there confused."
Right. But think about that. We're adults. We could be confused about something, and you sort of think about it, and you come to terms with it, but then you're not putting your children in loyalty binds. And that's... yes. Even when I look at the framing of, "If I stay, I can protect them. If I leave, they're going to get 50% custody." First of all, maybe. And maybe not. There's ways to protect them when you even have to share 50/50 custody. But even this idea of, "Just believe [00:11:00] victims. The courts should just believe victims." Prove to me that you're a victim. Now, I'm not saying that as a coach; I'm talking about from a legal perspective. You want me to just believe that you're a victim as a legal professional, not as me; I'm a coach. Tell me, who's the first person that would walk into a courtroom and plead, "I'm the victim?" A narcissistic abuser. So who do they believe? You have to demonstrate it. I'm sorry. That is the most just and fair way to do it. You must have evidence. But then you get into the next category of, "But I had 36 pages of evidence." And my family court coroner friend Angela always says this: "How many pages are you allowed to put into this court where you live, in your jurisdiction?" And I'm telling you, nine out of ten people say, "What?" So you've put in 36 pages where 12 is allowed. You also—I can assure you, and I had to learn this the hard way. Trust me when I tell you, I was so on that path of, "I hate Family Court." You have to realize that you must frame everything from the lens of your children. What happened to you matters—to you, to your [00:12:00] therapist. It matters. But what matters is how your children feel and what they're experiencing. And sometimes you don't have enough evidence, and the abuser gets 50% custody. Don't give up, and you keep going back to it. Now, I understand court's not free. I don't mean to make this sound simple. This is the hardest thing you might ever do. Which makes it almost sort of like, "It's so hard, why would I leave? I don't want to go through a legal battle. I can't afford it. I don't want to put my kids through it." So you just stay. If you really want to protect your children, you get the evidence that I know exists. People say, "You can't prove emotional abuse in court." I'm sorry. I watch it every day. Hundreds and hundreds of people are having success. So it can be done. Ask yourself how the people that are winning do it.
Kerry: Yeah. Because I think most people don't understand the courts. Yes. The primary two questions are, "What's in the best interest of the child, and can these two people cooperate towards that end?" And that's it. That's all they want to know. That's all they want to know. Family...
Lisa: ...court isn't here to hold your ex accountable. So even when you look at, just—I'll use an example because it's actually a [00:13:00] weirdly frequent example—about when, especially with little kids, like "Dad doesn't change the diapers often enough," or "Mom only ever feeds the kids McDonald's." So what you're telling me is dad feeds the kids or mom feeds the kids. Do you want a judge to court order them to eat carrots three days a week or a certain ounce of... and how is that going to be monitored and enforced? Next. So I think that people expect Family Court almost to make you in a position where you can force your ex to parent the way you want to. You're getting divorced for a reason. You can't agree on things.
Kerry: That really takes us to the next big tough question then. How do you then emotionally cope when you know what's happening in that other home is not ideal and certainly even causing emotional pain?
Lisa: Honestly, I guess there's no easy answer. The truth is, my first gut is to say therapy. Because what you need to be working on—and again, whether you're working with a therapist, a coach, or watching videos and just trying to get the free resources that you can get and reading and whatnot—coping with that, to say that it's hard... I mean, like, we're mothers, and [00:14:00] Kerry, you didn't go through this, but you're a mother. Watching your children in any form of pain... I mean, do you really get that?
Yeah. You can't. Fix it. You can't. So you have to learn how to breathe through it, accept it. Radical acceptance, right? Learn how to just... this is what it is. And what you can do that is going to help your kids is teach them to stand up for themselves safely and be a safe space for them. Because the truth is that the world isn't perfect anyway. So even when they're 21, you push them out the door, off they go. You can't protect them from every single person. So you have to give them the...
Kerry: ...framework, right? Here's an exercise. I'd love people to ask themselves, "What is your goal for them by 18? What's your objective?" And I can't tell you the number of times I've actually asked that in the counseling practices. Ask parents, "What's your objective?" Most parents will say, "I want my children happy." I'm sorry. That is the worst possible goal you could ever have because you will not have a competent functioning adult if you're trying to keep them happy. Think about what that means. [00:15:00] That means that they want cotton candy for breakfast. You're going to give them that. That keeps them happy. That's what you said your goal is. The goal should be—you should have an independently functioning adult who knows how to navigate the world. And that means navigating an imperfect world, a really painful world. In fact, when you were talking about children, I'll tell you, Lisa, it was nothing more painful than having a son dying of leukemia. And knowing that he's not responding and I had to still walk out because I couldn't stay 24 hours a day. I couldn't, but I had to trust the staff was going to do the right thing. And then to see him suffer, to see him actually in physical pain, if I could have taken it on, I would have. And I know that that's an extreme example, and God forbid any of us ever go through it. But I know many people who are leaving these toxic relationships feel like they're in a similar place that I was in in that situation. And that we really, really don't want our kids to suffer, and we get terrified that what we feel and what we went through in the relationship, now they're having to navigate this alone. But the problem is, they have to [00:16:00] learn to navigate it because this is not the only person they're gonna ever encounter who's like this. There are lots of people. They may have it in their coach; they may meet a teacher who's like this; they may end up, God forbid, having an in-law when they marry somebody. So it's so important that they learn how to recognize... we just wrapped up another podcast a week ago that was about how to recognize abuse, and both you and I said we weren't really good at recognizing abuse, and that education needs to be there. Unfortunately, our kids are getting an education.
Lisa: That's one way to view it. It is unfortunate. I'm with you, right? It's unfortunate and yet necessary, but I think, to your point, we need to look at it more broadly than just with the abusive parent because it does transfer to other relationships. So it's a skill set that's necessary. I'm so sorry that your seven-year-old has to learn it. I am. I mean, I've been through it. I get it. But I can think of so many clients that have been through things, but even having to give your child over when they don't want to go, and there's a court order that says you have to, or watching your kids be like, "I can't wait to see my dad. My dad's the best," and meanwhile, he's not at all. And he's awful. And he antagonizes mom, or, and it's not all... always could be switched gender too, but... Yeah. I go through this, and I watch it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard for the... let's call it the healthy parent to watch that. I also watch victims of abuse lose their children sometimes. And it's—talk about hard to have that conversation with people. If they're aiming to get their children back, which most are, right? But you feel so defeated by the system. You feel like you're being further abused by the system. But to ask that person who just is, like, beaten down to then look at the mistakes that they made, you're leaning into victim-shaming territory and victim-blaming. You didn't do it right. The Family Court can't work on emotion. You need to have evidence of things. And the thing is, abusers are so good at it being so covert, but we got to get away from the, like, you know, "Mom was supposed to return the kids at 6:15, and she [00:18:00] brings them back at, like, 6:45." If you're going to court for that, you need to reevaluate what your concerns are. You should be in court for things that are truly harming your children, not because dad doesn't change the diapers often enough or because dad's new wife sucks. Something I hear a lot of is that dad's new girlfriend is the one communicating, and it really pisses off bio moms to have to communicate, especially when they're pretending through a parenting app, and I get it. I get the frustration. I really do, trust me when I say, but stop it. That is the least of your concerns. Just move on. Pick the things that really matter because those are the things that are the evidence in the 36-page affidavit that never gets read and that make you look like a gatekeeping, controlling mother when that's not what you're really trying to do. So it's working with the best professionals to try to build the best case. Whether you have a great lawyer, a great divorce coach—I know for me, I don't handle the legal strategy in any way, but I do talk to people about their own communication and the way that they function in the co-parenting relationship [00:19:00] because, sadly, we cannot control our ex. We can only control ourselves. So I really work with parents on that, specifically in letting go, as well as parents who haven't left yet—what that new life could look like, how to manage the emotions, sending your kids off to your abuser's house, how hard that is.
Kerry: So Lisa, you and I have been getting fan mail, and actually, Lisa, you, Ro, and I have been getting fan mail, and it's a lot of fan mail, and I appreciate it so much. Some of you guys send in ideas of topics that we can cover in the future, and I really appreciate that. One of them, for example, was, "As an adult with narcissistic parents, how do you manage the complexity of relationships like that?" I'd love that. We definitely will add that to our list. I know that you guys also have appreciated the one on coercive control and even how to recognize who's the narcissist in the relationship. But I want to pose one to you, Lisa, that fits this topic really nicely. And this is a listener in the UK struggling with the fact that she no longer lives with her partner, but she still [00:20:00] has intrusive in-laws who somehow add more complexity to the parenting time when they have the child. What do you recommend in those situations when you have intrusive in-laws who are adding to the chaos of trying to co-parent with a toxic partner?
Lisa: Toxic in-laws are very challenging to deal with, but you're not co-parenting with your in-laws. And I think often people are sort of like, you know, "Oh, but I have to because," or everyone has their own specific reasons why they're doing things. But I want people to kind of just pause for a minute and really think about who you're co-parenting with, right? You're not co-parenting with your ex-spouse's new partner. You're not co-parenting with... it's your ex-spouse and no one else. And protect yourself with boundaries and put some rules in place of how and when pickups, drop-offs, you know, if they're helpful, if they're not. But what I'm hearing is that they're intrusive, and I know it's easy to say, "I wouldn't allow that," but work [00:21:00] towards removing that intrusiveness from that situation. And I don't mean through a nice friendly conversation with your ex, and it'll just explain the situation. It's really about you setting boundaries. You don't even need to talk to your ex necessarily about the in-laws. If you're in contact with the in-laws, it's just, "This is what I will be doing moving forward. This is what I expect moving forward. This is how I'm willing to participate in this moving forward and how I'm not." You set that clear boundary, assess your ability to put the consequence forward, and really look at how you can make that work logistically. It's always hard without specifics, but you need to be able to kind of set that and hold that. I think that we get sucked in a lot to feeling like we have no choice. And that's from a group of people who feel really disempowered, and that makes sense to feel disempowered. But you are in control. When you're out of the relationship, you have more power than you think. You're just used to bending to this family or this person, and you don't realize that you really don't [00:22:00] have to anymore. It is more mindset-related than you think, in my opinion.
Kerry: I agree with you. I agree with you 100%. I often think that we get caught up and trapped by the idea that we need people to be happy with a decision, everyone to buy in and agree to whatever the outcome or the solution is. We don't. We just simply need to decide what the solution is and hold our ground around it. Yes, they're going to have feelings about it. Yes, they probably are going to smear you around it. But on the... by the way, they already are. It's not any more or worse. It's already happening. You're not going to keep these people happy. So I think that really my even reaction is, "Do they need to be involved with your children's events when it's really the relationship they have with your ex? Why does the ex not have it, coordinating that?" That's really that other person's problem, not a you problem. So those are some things I would be thinking about, like, why am I involved in this? It really doesn't involve me at all. It is hard because we—I agree with you—we get into the position of thinking that it is our job to keep everybody happy because that is the mindset that a [00:23:00] predatory person wants us to own. But it is not our job, especially when we're no longer in a relationship with them. That's not our problem. So thank you so much for sending in the fan mail. We really appreciate it. Please be aware that you can text these messages to us, but we don't have the capacity to text you back. It's not a live line, but we will address the ones that we can in the way that we can. So thank you so much for being our listeners. We deeply appreciate you. And thank you, Lisa, for this topic. We're going to now jump over and talk about the strategies, practical strategies, if you're trying to navigate a tricky relationship with a tough co-parent after a divorce. Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at kerrymcavoyphd.com. And whether you're in, considering leaving, or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my Toxic Free Relationship Club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at kerrymcavoyphd.com. And I'll see [00:24:00] you back here next week.