If You're in a Narcissistic Relationship, Why Couples Therapy is a Bad Idea

When there’s trouble in a relationship, most couples are urged to seek couples counseling.

In today’s episode, Lisa Sonni joins me to talk about why this suggestion is a terrible idea if your partner is a narcissist. Too many couples therapists lack the education to identify narcissistic abuse, and narcissistic and toxic partners are highly sophisticated at manipulating the therapeutic process.

For help breaking a trauma bond, see Lisa’s resources: https://strongerthanbefore.ca

In the Subscriber's Edition, Lisa and I discuss alternative strategies to couples therapy. Learn a simple test on how to tell if your partner is truly changing or just trying to convince you stay. Get immediate access by becoming a paid subscriber here: breakingfreenarcabuse.substack.com/

Are you struggling with post-separation abuse? Learn practical skills to halt your toxic ex from misusing the legal and social systems. Join New Powerful You, a 10-week group coaching program hosted by Dr. Kerry and Lisa Sonni. The group starts on Oct 9th; space is limited.

Secure your spot here: https://kerrymcavoyphd.com/new-powerful-you/

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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Transcript

Kerry: [00:00:00] When a relationship gets in trouble, the first recommendation is to get into couples therapy. But today, Lisa Sonni joins me to talk about why couples therapy is contraindicated with a narcissist or in a narcissistic relationship.

Well, today may be a controversial topic to those who haven't heard this before, but let's talk about couples counseling and if it's indicated in a narcissistic relationship. Because I know the first thing everybody says when you start to run into trouble Is, well, you two of you should go see a therapist and that will help .

That's the solution. And I'll bet it's what you did and it certainly is what I did. Let's get into this this week. 

Lisa: I heard it after I did it. So, there's that. I heard really bad things about what it's like to go to therapy with an abuser, with a narcissist, but I didn't know that I was in a relationship with one.

And I think I thought what most people [00:01:00] think, which is like, we have problems, and the abuser really reinforces that we have problems. If they even admit that they're even part of it, usually you're the problem, but yes, the closest you're going to get to any form of what seemed like accountability is we. So you go and you think.

We need to work on and I've had two different experiences in therapy. One was completely invalidating where it was all sort of cast to communication issues, right? He felt like I didn't respect him and so we needed to work on our communication so that he felt respect. Meanwhile, I was describing abuse, not physical abuse, but I was describing abuse and the therapist didn't pick up on it.

The next therapist, a couple years later, straight up called it abuse and saved my life. And I think that is a very rare experience. I think more often than not, we hear about manipulation of the therapist by the abuser. The therapist might be swayed in their direction or just doesn't see it. And then the whole experience can be really invalidating.

Kerry: At what level [00:02:00] this has been implemented, but there is strong advisories against anyone going into therapy with a personality disorder, particularly with narcissism. That is unadvisable. It's, it's actually, there's research coming out to say that it's going to be ineffective and it's also puts the, the victim at risk for more abuse.

So I'd really like to talk about that, what happened. And I as well went into therapy with a narcissist, so I know what it feels like, but I also had to pass the bandage. Or disadvantage, really, if you want to think of it that way of being the clinician in the room with somebody who's narcissistic and they're doing couples therapy with me.

I've experienced it on both sides, what this is like, but let's talk about why this is not advisable, why victims are at risk. I know the first thing comes to my mind when I think of this issue is that for marital therapy to be effective, it takes the assumption that these are two people who are highly motivated And want the relationship to improve that there's a level of self reflection.

There's a degree of empathy and concern investment. And that also this is somebody who's going to own [00:03:00] their part of the problem. They're going to take responsibility for what's going wrong. And we already know that narcissists have problems with all of those. They don't take accountability, they're not responsible, they deflect blame in any sense of failure, and then they also view everything from a strategic viewpoint of how can I use this to my advantage to get ahead because they're very, very competitive.

So that means they're going to go into therapy and learn skills from the therapy that they're then going to turn around. And use against the client, but here's what I experienced in the room. My other concern was I'm trying to build rapport with two people. Okay, the relationships, my client, technically, when a couple comes into the room, it's not her or her or him and her, it's the relationship.

So think about what that means. It means that I need to have both people become invested and trust me. I need to develop rapport with both individuals. And I know that anytime that I start to get firm or set limits or call something out, that starts to strain that connection. And people who are narcissistic don't develop strong connections with anybody because their biggest commitment is to [00:04:00] themselves all the time.

It's very self defensive, very self protective. So the minute the therapist starts to then put some responsibility on the individual, they become very defensive and they feel threatened, which then they'll threaten the relationship. So I always had a sense that whenever I started getting close to the truth, close to a line of holding the more emotionally ill person in the room responsible, that I'm pushing them to the point of either terminating treatment forever or even just leaving the room in that moment.

But I could sense that we're coming to a point that this person is going to walk out on me. And that then defeats the purpose. So as a clinician, you're in this terrible bind of how do I keep both people in the room and do something effective for the relationship and not lose this individual. And yet I really need to call this individual out to protect the relationship.

It's a horrible position to be in as a clinician. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kerry: I mean, 

Lisa: I don't have that experience. I have the experience of sitting in the chair across from, and when I tell you I am lucky that the therapist that we were working [00:05:00] with happened to know about narcissistic abuse. I didn't know that because I didn't know what to ask for.

I didn't know that it was even abuse, let alone narcissistic abuse. But she had had her own personal experience with it in her life. And that led her to sit there and realize what was sitting in front of her. So there were a couple of things that she noticed. And I think this is interesting even to talk about what my therapist noticed.

She later confessed to me that one of the most pivotal moments was she was talking and she was asking him something. And it had something to do with like, do you see how that. Was harmful and he interrupted her and he said, Your hair looks really nice today and she recognized that in the moment as his way of flattering her building rapport with her, what his need for that was.

And this wasn't the first session. We've been in multiple sessions. But she saw that as a tactic. She also saw that he wasn't really interested in being there. He was very fidgety and would show up late. We were on a Zoom call, and she ensured that we were side by [00:06:00] side. We couldn't meet separately, and she was on the Zoom call.

And that was really important to her that we were in the same space so that she could see us together. And I remember even from a video perspective, we had to sit very close. And there were times where I was describing ways that he had just absolutely hurt me emotionally, and she would watch him kind of like pat me or just, she felt it to be very minimizing.

She witnessed all of this and was put in the position of calling it for what it was. She said in the sessions, this is the abuse. And we both were like, Now from that moment on, because he liked her, we both thought she was nice and she hinted at, and I love her for this, she really hinted that she was going to focus the sessions on him to sort of break down some walls, that I didn't feel like she was siding with him or just talking to him, I knew the plan.

She just didn't give me a lot of information about why, but that really paid off in my mind, realizing, okay, she's trying to break down these walls. And she noticed that it was impossible, that he didn't seem [00:07:00] invested, that he didn't want to be there. But as soon as she called it abuse, that was it for him.

She was a B word. He showed up to two more sessions and then he was like, F this. I don't want to be part of this anymore. And in our last session, she said to him and to me, We cannot continue. I apologize, but I'm actually going to need to let you both go as clients due to the escalation of abuse. We had just in that session confessed that there was physical abuse that was happening, ongoing, like last night, where there was physical abuse, and she said she can't continue, so she fired us.

Kerry: Wow, it's interesting because that's actually the opposite of what my ex did. So this is what my ex did is that he deliberately groomed the clinician, the psychologist. So he would show up, he would be super polite, shake her hand, ask how her day was going. And then when it ended, he'd linger a little, let me leave first, linger a little.

Do the customary, because we are in Mexico, kiss on the cheek, which I actually stopped when she went to do that with me and I said, in the United States, it's not okay for therapists to have contact [00:08:00] with a client. So I'm uncomfortable with this physical contact. I know it's a social greeting that you're doing, but I would prefer we don't hug or touch or shake hands.

And she just looked at me. 'cause she'd been trained in Canada so she knew better. Mm-Hmm. . Because that would've been the training you would've gotten in US or Canada. Yep. And she said, you're right. That is a rule that tends to be followed. But she never put a limit on him and he would continue to do it.

He just kept ingratiating himself to her. That's the way he did. He ingratiated himself. He made him look like he was a really wonderful person. He went out of the way to make her feel like he could see her and appreciate her. They even had a group chat that I got included with to be able to coordinate the treatment stuff, but he might send an extra, like, Happy Mother's Day or something.

I mean, it was just over the top. And then, when the moment came, when there was a big confrontation, he had been caught cheating, or at least texting the girlfriend. And she tried to confront him. She couldn't hold the boundaries. She asked him four times why he did what he did. And then the fourth time I could feel this rage rising.

And I'm sure she did, too, because she not. And at that point, she broke off, turned to [00:09:00] me and then said, So how are you doing? And I'm thinking, So it's over? Was this done? I know that you feel he's about ready to storm out of this room, but let him storm out. You haven't got to the bottom of this. You haven't taken care of the issue.

Instead, it ended up going wrong. It ended up that she then had him comfort me when there was no accountability. This is the worst possible message. It's essentially saying, We're not going to say what you did wrong, but we're going to go ahead and make her feel better just because that makes us feel better.

Like, how sick is that? It's just, it was so crazy making when that happened. I 

Lisa: agree. Wow. You hear this a lot. I feel like you just gave a good example of that false sense of progress. Yeah. Having said that, I was thinking of that in the context of we think it's false sense of progress. Actually, I think she thought in that case that it was, she wanted that, like, let's, let's feel like we're moving forward here.

See, he apologized. Yes. 

Kerry: Yes. Apologized for what? Right. All he'd say was, yeah, it was dumb. I effed up. I should have done that. Well, but what led you to do that? I, I know it was dumb. I, that's why he just kept on that. And it worked. It got her off the [00:10:00] topic. And then she goes, so how are you feeling about this, Carrie?

And I'm thinking, I'm feeling like he's getting away with it again. Nobody can hold him accountable. You can't even hold him accountable. And, you know, the other thing he would do, he was strategically, because we were meeting in person. He would stop outside her window. It was held in a, like, a home office and, uh, with a carport.

He would stop out in front of her window and make sure he'd stop and kiss and hug me. It's the whole dog and pony show here. This is what this is. This is not authentic. And then he'd say, well, didn't that make you feel good? I think we're doing really great. It gets set to the point that exactly what you just said, she thought we were ready to terminate and I looked at her and I thought, I've never been more at risk than I am right now.

Terminate? What do you mean terminate? We haven't gotten to the bottom of anything here. Now here's the other things I know go wrong. You got somebody who the minute the truth is mentioned, they're out of there. Or we have in my case where he actually comes in and leads. I'm cheating. I've done some bad things.

I've been a bad boy. Slap my hand. Now I'm going to like put on a good show and tell you that I'm such a good boy. I will never do it again. And she's buying into this. [00:11:00] But there are a lot of other mid versions that happened to and I certainly saw this. One of them is they come in. The couple comes in, talks about something tough.

It feels like a good session. They get in the car and then there's a chew out all the way home about why they brought that topic up in that session. So it's just you're basically crucified for being authentic and truthful about the reality of what's happening in the house. So I know that's another.

Very bad version. What I would try to do as a clinician is say, you're not allowed to talk about these sessions outside of these sessions, which, you know, good luck. 

Lisa: Yeah, 

Kerry: good 

Lisa: luck holding that boundary or enforcing that. I experienced that. Why are you trying to make me look bad?

Oh, let me guess. We're going to talk about your problems again. We never talk about my problems. Meanwhile, I just told you that Our therapist was actively only focusing on his problems, and he still was like, it's not enough. We're not talking enough about what you 

Kerry: do to me. Why? I've heard that too. It's like, it's always about when do I get to talk about my issues?

 It is your issues. You're just not recognizing it as your issues. Here's another [00:12:00] one though, it's happened, and I saw this so many times, the narcissist comes in and gets the therapist to gaslight the victim together, that they come in and this person presents it that the other partner is the problem, they're so worked up, and they have way too much on their plate, or they're struggling with depression, or They're anxious or whatever.

They create some problem and then they convince the therapist that the other person is the problem. And so then they both try to work and fix that person. It's awful. I actually had someone just tell me that it worked. They got put on medication for several years for something they never had.

Lisa: Oh my goodness. 

Kerry: Yeah. And that's called gaslight syndrome where the system then agrees and there's been people hospitalized. Because of this, that everybody buys into this, this idea that the person's sick and they diagnose them with something . This person got, got diagnosed as bipolar.

They were put on treatment for bipolar medication, which has weight implications. It's kind of sedative. I I looked at this individual horrified that this person suffered for two years [00:13:00] on medication they never needed because everybody got gaslit into believing this person was the problem. 

Lisa: Man, that's awful.

I hear constant horror stories about being in therapy with an abuser. I hear nothing but horror stories. So I obviously also really don't recommend it. You know, the popular thing right now is weaponized therapy. You see that. You were talking about it just now, this idea that they learn language and they start to come out of the sessions and it's like, Hey, I'm feeling like you're crossing my boundary.

And they start using the language of the sessions. And then that also I think contribute to the false sense of progress is if they're using the language, they're really getting it or you're seeing a sense of improvement, but is it really improvement? Why does a relationship not get fixed, an abusive relationship not get fixed in couple counseling?

The problem is not the individuals, the problem is that there's abuse happening. Like, we're not looking at it properly. I think that if we see it as abusiveness is not a [00:14:00] relationship problem, abusiveness is the perpetrator's problem, so to speak. Your best shot is in individual therapy. Not that I'm claiming that individual therapy cures narcissism, but your only shot at improvement is, I don't know, decades of individual therapy for the perpetrator of abuse.

Kerry: So I want to share a story. My late husband, Brad, did hit me a few times. There was domestic violence in that relationship. I don't know if you're aware of that. It happened right away, right at the beginning. And my consequence was that we had to go into therapy, or I was going to divorce him. He knew that I meant that, that we were ending.

It was going to be over. So we went weekly for a year. In the first session, what the therapist did, we admitted it right out. He started to hit me. He's been punching me. Not in the face, everybody, just please know that it wasn't in the face, but he was punching me and it had to stop. And she then called him out in that session.

He admitted to her that he had done that and it was true. And then she said, you must stop. This has to stop today. You're [00:15:00] never allowed to do this again. He agreed. And you can tell in the session that he was disturbed, felt shamed, felt guilty, and it never happened again. So in that case, it worked. And here's why I think it worked.

Because he went in accountable. He owned that he did this, that this was wrong. This wasn't a me problem. This was a, like, you just, what you said. He recognized this was a him problem. She made it a him problem. He took ownership for it and it stopped. And then we spent the next year talking about the conflicts that we didn't know how to work through that was leading to him feeling so much pressure that he just felt like he wanted to hit me as a response to like, just, you know, kids hit each other, like, just stop, just shut up.

Then we've spent the next year every week talking about the problems that we couldn't solve and learn new ways to talk through issues, which was really powerful because we continued to use it for the rest of our marriage. So it saved our marriage. But see, the difference was he wasn't narcissist. And on top of it, he accepted that he had been doing something that was inherently dangerous to the relationship and [00:16:00] dangerous to me.

I think a lot 

Lisa: of people go into these counseling sessions like, okay, but don't tell her about X. Or don't try to make me look bad. Don't tell people don't, you know, talk crap about me. And there's these rules that abusers put on where you're not allowed to share certain details. And even if you are, you know, I've heard people say that therapists should have an ethical duty to report.

If you talk about domestic violence, I actually on the surface, I can see why that makes sense. But as soon as you go like a half inch below the surface, you can see why that's actually super dangerous because the therapist would be putting the couple at risk. First of all, you wouldn't even go to therapy.

If I had gone to therapy and she said, just so you know, before we get started, if you tell me that you're being abused or that you're abusing each other, Any abuse in your relationship, I have to report it as they do with if you report child abuse or things like that, elder abuse or elder abuse. Those are vulnerable party.

I understand we're vulnerable party too, but you wouldn't even go. I would have been like, Oh, okay, well, never mind [00:17:00] because the point of therapy isn't to get the person in trouble. I think speaking for the victims and survivors, we're in therapy, maybe hoping that they get called out. Okay. But I think if anything, what we're just hoping for is that they get help.

And the only way that an abuser will often go is if we go with them and we do this whole, we have problems and we are toxic together. That's the mask that they want us to wear in therapy. 

Kerry: Yes, you're exactly right. I'm thankful that that is not a mandated law. There are mandated laws around violence. That is, for example, if someone comes in and there's a clear object of harm, There's a clear expression of intent to harm, and even a sense of when that harm may happen, then, at least in the United States, you're obligated to inform others about that, to contact the right people, to let them know of the risk.

 Couples don't come in with future plans, they come in discussing, we had a fight last night, so thank goodness, I don't think that's a mandated, at least a lot to my knowledge, it's not a mandated law in the United States, but it is risky when a therapist approaches it that way, and I'm not saying there aren't [00:18:00] therapists that could, they shouldn't, but they could.

I do also think that sometimes therapists don't always recognize who they have in the room, and there's another big flaw, can therapists recognize a personality disorder when they see one? I don't think all of them necessarily, even though you'd say, well, Kerry, they should have clinical training, yes, but this takes nuanced training, it takes kind of specialized treatment, and when you consider the massive topic of psychology, Believe it or not, it's huge.

It's a huge span of topics from testing to developmental, to physiology, to neurology, and then relationships. And then the theory of personality, and I'm just scratching the top of it. So when it comes to being very good as a clinician and really knowing a lot about this, sometimes you have to have to have had specialty.

To understand what a personality disorder and how that impacts the relationship. I'm thrilled. In fact, I just saw that Dr. Ramani is now offering that certification program live. She now has a second component where she's going to be doing it with clinicians so they can actually be doing this consulting together, which I think is [00:19:00] so amazing.

So I'm saying, hopefully, guys, in the future, you'll be able to go to a clinician who has a specialized certification who understands narcissistic abuse. And it's been trained on how to treat it. But I took that training, I'm almost complete with it. And they say clearly couples therapy is never indicated, never in this case.

So I think it behooves us is if we think we're in a relationship with somebody who's toxic, that we ourselves need to then warn the clinician up ahead. I've concerned my partner may have some traits that are very difficult. They might be high conflict. Or I'm concerned that maybe there's some sort of narcissistic traits.

At least, you know, if you're thinking about that, get some help with the treatment planning before you even step into the room. In fact, where I'd like to kind of head with this to wrap up today is I'd like to talk about how do you get help if you're in this kind of situation where, you know, you need help, but you don't know what kind of help, you know, they need help, but what do you do about that?

So I'd like to jump over and talk about that with you on the podcast extra, [00:20:00] but we got some fan mail. So let me get to the fan mail. This is fan mail that came in from San Diego, California. I'm in a covert narcissistic relationship for over 35 years. I was 18 and he was 37. We met at work. He owns the business.

I loved my job. In the beginning, it was good. But as time went on, the need for the family came up and it became an eggshell issue. Where I got increasingly careful because we pummeled every time I brought it up, and I started to see what I couldn't unsee. Now I've been together with this person, and I'm 57, and he's 72, and we still have the business, but his aggression has gotten worse, and I feel beaten down from it, and I've suffered, my health has suffered, and I'm in the process of trying to leave.

I'm seeing a therapist, a CBT specialist once a week for anxiety, but I need more enforcement and strength. And I feel completely like I resonate what I've been listening to on this podcast. Do you have any suggestions or advice for me? Oh, I mean, 

Lisa: I [00:21:00] think being in therapy is incredible. I don't know that it needs to be specific to CBT.

I think somebody who's an expert in exiting abusive relationships, who understands trauma bonding, who understands how to resolve or reduce cognitive dissonance, and see things more clearly, A lot of clinicians don't have that training, as you've said, it's not part of the educational program, so that might not be the right therapist to help her exit.

Right. Yes, great for anxiety and other things, but being somebody who specializes in it, sounds like this person knows that it's abuse and knows what to do. What the issue is, so you can get more targeted support when you know 

Kerry: the problem, I would recommend that your trauma bond recovery course, your online course would be perfect for someone like that.

Wouldn't you think? I think it would be absolutely 

Lisa: perfect for it. The trauma bond recovery course teaches you what you need to know, the language of what you're experiencing, how to. Understand your own unmet need, how to set boundaries, uh, CBT, DBT [00:22:00] skills are in it, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, building self love, building a support system, and really creating that plan to leave, as well as working with me one on one would be really helpful too.

Kerry: Yeah, exactly. I don't think people, I mean, maybe the public doesn't know this, maybe they do, we do put it in the show notes, but that you do take clients, you offer support for those who are in as well as out, and you also help people break trauma bonds. And it doesn't matter if they're in a relationship and they're still in a trauma bond.

Or that they've left a relationship and still feel trauma bonded to that person. You support both of them at both of those levels. So how can they get a hold of you if they feel that that's something that would be beneficial? Head over to my 

Lisa: website strongerthanbefore. ca and check out the trauma bond recovery course or my book a session tab there and have a look.

I work with people who even think like, I don't know if I'm ready to leave. I don't know if I want to leave. I don't know if it's abuse up to people who are like, this is abuse. I need to get out. I've left six times and I keep going back. I have a range of people or people, as I said, who are out of the relationship [00:23:00] and need that help.

Post relationship support to stay gone. That's really important, too. 

Kerry: Yeah, in fact, I just met somebody yesterday who was white knuckling it. They've been out like three months and they're still teary and saying, I feel such a pull to contact this person. I don't know what's wrong with me. And I've now spoken to two different addicts.

Tara was one of them who talked about this on the podcast, who've broken active addictions and there's in sobriety now, both of them have had trauma bonds and said the trauma bond was worse. It was harder to break than an addiction. So yeah, absolutely. I think this is something that you do need support.

Don't go it alone. Lisa, this is one of her big specialties. Why I really love her content because she's so familiar with this, but. Thank you for reaching out and letting us know that and thank you for the fan mail. I certainly appreciate it. It's wonderful to hear that this show is helpful and that it's resonating with people.

That's that's great. All right. So we're going to jump over to the podcast and talk about what do you do when you're in that relationship? You need help. You want to get some kind of professional help. What should you [00:24:00] do? So I can't wait to talk about it over there. But thank you so much for being on today.

Thank you Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on tiktok facebook instagram and youtube? Find me at kerry mcavoy phd And whether you're in consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship Find community support at my toxic free relationship club You can learn about this resource as well as others at kerry mcavoy phd.

com And i'll see you back here next week