Chef James Gop: Igniting the Senses with Heirloom Fire's Outdoor Culinary Artistry

As the smoky scent of the open flame lingers in the air, Chef James Gop of Heirloom Fire takes us on a tantalizing tour through his life, revealing how a childhood steeped in rich food traditions and an artistic bent shaped his culinary philosophy. With a reverence for seasonal ingredients sparked at Guido's Fresh Marketplace, James shares how he weaves his artistic past into a dining experience that's as much a visual feast as it is a treat for the taste buds. Pull up a chair and prepare to be enthralled by tales of Thanksgiving rituals and transformative moments that led James from the structured confines of the restaurant kitchen to the liberating flames of outdoor event catering.
Venture with us into the great outdoors, where Chef James and the Heirloom Fire team redefine what it means to cook with nature as their backdrop. We'll uncover the true grit and creativity it takes to host a feast under the stars, all while maintaining a poignant connection to the land and community. You'll hear firsthand the spiritual journey of tending to fire, the camaraderie of a team working in unison against the elements, and the balancing act of a chef's life, which often teeters on the edge of a knife. This is the story of transcending the ordinary, where every dish tells a story of place and time.

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Transcript

Chef Massey: 0:00

Service. Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense. I'm your host, Chef Massey Alright. We have Chef James Gop from heirloom fire. Thank you for being here.

Chef James: 0:23

It's a real pleasure. Thank you. I've been looking forward to this for a while now.

Chef Massey: 0:26

Thank you for your appreciation and listening and you sharing your passion, your craft, your beginning, you know enlightening all of our listeners and you know I'm just excited to hear about that. So, yeah, if you want to start from your beginning, and how, food, passion, where did it all come from? Yeah, yeah when does that throw the box away?

Chef James: 0:43

mentality. Yeah, it's interesting, it's a lot. You know I'm not. I mean, I came from a very strong food-driven family growing up and it was something like I never understood my grandmother every you know Thanksgiving. She would start three days before, like you know, preparing everything and you know saving, you know onion skins and doing something with them and I just I don't understand why you're doing that and the moment I guess I didn't appreciate it. As I got older I began to appreciate it more, but I really myself I came from more of an art background.

Chef James: 1:14

Oh yeah, it was more of like. My mother has all these pictures of me falling asleep, sketching with a pen in my hand.

Chef Massey: 1:19

Oh, that's cool.

Chef James: 1:20

Okay, I always loved Halloween and you know different masks and things and one year you know this is, I think, sort of what really developed my basis, for how can I look at something through nowadays? I say, look at it through the heirloom fire lens. So one year I bought, like this foam latex mask that I, you know, had somebody help apply to my face. It wasn't quite the right size for my face. So the next year is like, well, can I do it myself? And that's the way I've approached everything. And chef knives that I use like I studied about how to blacksmith and make those and handles from night or from bones that are from local steer you know taking those pounding those out.

Chef James: 1:56

So, yeah, I just actually had really all started with a girl, I think, with, I mean, I don't know, I think a lot of people's journeys in life. But I did work at Guido's Fresh Marketplace in Great Barrington.

Chef Massey: 2:05

Okay, oh, I think I saw that ad they're doing great. They've got that store. Oh my God, talk about.

Chef James: 2:10

Disneyland yeah, and it has does has not seemed to slow down. And you know, when I was just a young buck, I didn't seek out working there. It wasn't like, oh my God, I want to be involved in food and was hiring. And then that's where I really understood, like having a peach in. August, like you want to be stepping out like standing over a bathtub when you bite into it yes, right, right Good heirloom apples, understanding seasonality and, you know, then, of course, getting to meet some of the chefs that came in, you know.

Chef Massey: 2:34

Dan Smith from John Andrews he's great to you, he's the best.

Chef James: 2:38

Yeah, and I had an issue with my Hobart mixer, my A200. He just happened to reach out, I forgot. We've exchanged phone numbers, like I have a planetary shaft, so yeah, he's a, he's a great guy. But then you see, those guys come in. You know, I've always like that phrase. I always love a man in a uniform.

Chef Massey: 2:54

Yeah, it's like oh, it's a chef.

Chef James: 2:55

So then I'm like going over and I'm showing you how to get this pursuit in and all this type of stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's where I really enjoyed, you know, an understood seasonality. And then I met a woman who basically was like, what are you doing? I'm like, well, because anytime I ever had a crush on anybody, it would be like I'd bake them some sort of chocolate goodie or something like that and that would typically be it, but this one was like working there for the summer.

Chef James: 3:14

What are you doing? Well, let's start looking at culinary schools.

Chef Massey: 3:16

Oh, okay.

Chef James: 3:17

So I went to New York City. I went to the Institute of Culinary Education okay was on West 23rd Street in Manhattan and Chelsea and what an amazing experience that was. And if I could find a way to bottle that energy ever again, to be able to work at Guido's Monday through Friday, head out there into the expedited just oh my gosh, where is that at?

Chef Massey: 3:35

Yeah, yeah, welcome here.

Chef James: 3:38

We are yeah here, and it was a real weird thing to then, you know, kind of leave that course. And then you know, looking at the art aspect, because I would take cast to my friend's faces and put, you know, I'd make a clay mold on top of it. It could be either silicone or foam latex. So you'd spend like a month on something, application, doing teeth and whatnot. So when it came to food, doing a multiple dish, somebody goes to eat it. No, no, no, don't touch that, it's not meant to be eaten. Yeah, so that was a real eye opening thing. For me. To understand over the period of time is that it's about the entire experience. It's about to eat with our eyes first, Right right absolutely so, yeah, and I got.

Chef James: 4:16

I worked at the Wheatly for a period of time.

Chef James: 4:18

Oh, okay, the Olden of the Green, so I tried to find these places Very cool and then, for a little bit, it was. You know, for me, I enjoy these types of things, these personal connections. Yep, I'm much more of an introvert, so it's it's weird that I own a company that caters to massive amounts of people. Yeah, but I enjoy the client that I'm working with. So, yeah, working in restaurants, I never got the satisfaction of, you know, being able to pair something for somebody, and it needs somebody to pat me on the back and say, hey, great job. I think it was just this aspect of taking care of somebody Sure, you know, and curtailing that entire experience to them.

Chef James: 4:52

Yeah, so, honestly, truth is I got burnt out. I've been burnt out a few times, and I think it's important where a lot of cooks don't, I you know, actually pay attention to when that happens, because you can stay on the pot for too long, you bet. So, you know, I took a break and there was a local butcher shop that was looking for help. They had some open fire catering stuff. Oh, Jeremy.

Chef James: 5:12

Stanton, yeah, yeah.

Chef Massey: 5:13

Yep, yep.

Chef James: 5:13

Yep and I went and helped him for one event and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing, you can be cooking over fire outdoors. Yeah, it's a totally different game and at that point it was simple. It was like you know, roasting pigs and vegetables and things like that.

Chef James: 5:26

And it was a lot of fun and sure. So then shortly thereafter I ended up managing that company and managing the butcher shop and did that for about maybe three or four years and then got to a stage where you know just professional differences and sure it's overstayed my time there and got kind of burnt out. And I got burnt out again the last big time, as was, you know, it's like I don't even know if I want to be in the food industry anymore. Wow. But then I ended up working at. I knew I wanted to be involved somehow, so I ended up working at Taft Farms.

Chef Massey: 5:56

Oh yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. I think that's when I first met you. Yeah, yeah, you had boys down there and they weren't picking out Kyle. Oh yeah, oh yes, Absolutely yeah. Another sweetheart yeah, he's a good guy. Oh yeah, no, he's great. Yeah, and did they?

Chef James: 6:09

yeah, worked there and then happened to just come across. You know, developing professional relationships with clients and you know it's something I often think about in life is we always have these particular moments that come up. That may or may not makes it makes something. Sure. You know, I ended up getting a Right. Before I started working at the farm, I got this flu. I thought it was like a real serious, just seasonal flu, but turned out it was Lyme disease.

Chef Massey: 6:32

Oh, you have that too.

Chef James: 6:33

Yeah, the most amazing diet I've ever been on. I didn't have to do anything. I lost weight Really I lost like 20 pounds. I just had this like fever constant. Oh, it's horrible, it's really horrible, and that's so right Going to work at Taft Farms and the Blazing Sun taking Doxycycline.

Chef Massey: 6:47

Yes, I was doing, yeah.

Chef James: 6:49

You got to have like a cowboy hat and putting the stuff on top of your ears and whatnot. Yeah, A lot of fun, but anyhow, a connection that I had made, a really high profile celebrity was going to be their party and I didn't have any equipment. It was nothing right, yeah you? Yeah. This person reached out and said basically the handler or the assistant to this person was saying you know, can we?

Chef James: 7:11

we have this event coming up? Can I talk to you tomorrow? And that was on Sunday and I was so sick and I was like, yeah, absolutely for sure. So you know, they can only see me on the other side of the camera. I was like draped with a blanket over me, yeah, and the person was like, oh, it's so-and-so's birthday this weekend and a lot of other celebrities are going to be there and start name dropping things and like, do you think we can do something? I'm like, oh yeah, of course, of course I don't have anything. Yeah, no equipment. So got off the phone, called up my cousin who had worked with me intimately at that point at that company and we literally built the business in five days Unbelievable.

Chef Massey: 7:43

We built an oven.

Chef James: 7:44

One of my best friends who was also wedding planner Magdalena, yep, magdalena, oh yeah, this one. So she was like sewing tablecloths and making props, and the reason I bring that up is that I often think about that. Had it not been for that particular celebrity, would I be sitting here today?

Chef Massey: 8:00

Yeah, you know.

Chef James: 8:00

Yeah, what I just simply said no, unfortunately, I don't have anything Right, and business just kept coming and I was like well, actually, you know what I really enjoy this now that I'm in control, yeah, yeah. And then we just started off with five events and you know, 2018, no, I'm sorry, 2022 was like a banner year for us. We did 38 events.

Chef Massey: 8:20

Oh, wow, okay.

Chef James: 8:21

Got to do an event for really one of my idols in life, so it's like checked off a box, Dan Barber.

Chef Massey: 8:26

Oh, yep, yep, Absolutely.

Chef James: 8:28

Sure, and then finished our season in Nashville, tennessee, with Sean Brock. Oh, there you go. It was great, okay. Yeah, it was a great year. It was outstanding man, yeah.

Chef Massey: 8:35

And I think too, for our listeners, because we do get a variety of people. We're not talking commercial kitchen and like combi oven and all these. You know French range and you've got all this equipment that you're wrapped in. Your experience is something that is this immersion opportunity, that is a, in a sense, this food theater, and you are really captivating people not just by the senses of what is on the plate, but the minute that they step into, even probably talking to you about their opportunity to work with you. It really is a culinary spiritual experience, to be honest. I mean, because you're using wood, you're using crafted metal and you're out in the elements. So I just everybody. This is kind of more of what we're talking about and it is a special situation because you really find out what you're made of being in these environments. Yeah, sorry, I just had to.

Chef James: 9:36

No, don't be sorry. Yeah, I think that's correct. I didn't do a great job at all of explaining. Yeah, appreciate that. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. It's kind of like takes traditional catering and flips it on its head, in a sense that a lot of ways people are cooking 90% of the food offsite and then bringing it in where we're cooking 90% of the food on site the day of and you're absolutely right, I mean last year and it's just. You know, it's so interesting. There's so many different things. You're combating wind speed, quality of the wood you know we for a while we were getting you know because you have to call. You're not allowed to transport wood across really even county borders due to the emerald ash borer problem.

Chef James: 10:13

Oh, right, so you really have to be getting it from the areas you're working in. A lot of times, if we're working someplace in New Hampshire or Rhode Island, we have no idea the quality of the wood. I don't know these people.

Chef Massey: 10:23

So they could need to be dried longer and then and there's a lot of times it shows up either, feels like they cut it down on the way. Super green yeah.

Chef James: 10:32

Or punky and moldy. And again, you know we had done another really high profile wedding, was like the biggest of our time and we like we had all the food prepped and none of the like the fires couldn't get going. I called the guy up and I can I get some seasoned wood? He's like what do you mean? Just throw a can of gasoline?

Chef Massey: 10:51

So I'm cooking over it and it's yeah, come try this food now?

Chef James: 10:54

Yeah, exactly, I'm just planning that, yeah you can have the first round of it, yeah.

Chef Massey: 10:57

Yeah.

Chef James: 10:58

So you know, but that's the thing is like. You're absolutely right, it shows you what you're made of. You know, like with, like a propane grill or range or whatever You're like. Oh, I know where the hotspots are. Like you're not, you're creating the hotspots. And we did an event this past year was water up above my boots which is like, you know, sort of cowboy calf boots. We had to find things and we just make it work.

Chef Massey: 11:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

Chef James: 11:19

I had a. I had a chef a traditional sort of chef that came and worked with us this year and it had been raining constantly and this was a particularly rainy event and you know she had a really great you know perspective looking at it and get stressed at all. But the rest of the team were just like, yeah, it's raining again, you know. So that's where you know having that team, that where you know you go through enough things and the thing that I think I'm the most proud of this obviously working with amazing clients and doing beautiful food. But from the back end, I get to go on the weekends or on the yeah, basically the biggest day. You know we have prep and we have the day. I really look forward to seeing my friends and my family.

Chef Massey: 11:54

you know to be able to cook.

Chef James: 11:55

And then, when you go through all kinds of heck with each other, you can realize that you know what. You look to the person to your left and the person to your right, and you can accomplish anything.

Chef Massey: 12:04

You can go on a battle with those people and they've got your back. Yeah, yeah, 100% Right. And you know, I mean there's so many questions involved with you know what you do that I find so intriguing. I mean, I've done some of these events but nothing like you know, like outstanding in the field. And you know, I understand and respect the fact of I love, you know, open fire cooking and being out in the elements, but again, it is also the menu engineering that you do with going even further into it and foraging or using some of these items from that regional area to have a voice on that menu.

Chef Massey: 12:44

That's a main. I mean you're dropping in and logistically you have to think of your team. You have to think of what you're bringing. You have to think can I put this stuff here? You know, I mean there's a lot you're dealing with and I'm just rattling, but then you're dealing with the fires and you're prepping an X and execution and you know you're even doing these stations along the way and you carry people through an event. I mean this is really this is a lot of strategic and craft formulation and that's why I'm calling it a craft, because you know, again, I love what I do and I'm very talented in it, but I love that opportunity to go that much further. It's pretty amazing.

Chef James: 13:25

Yeah, I mean first and foremost to that. I will always say the Suning Tamah in sight, because I realize that sure I may have the ideas, but without the team that I have you can never execute. So you know, I'm the first person to tell everybody all the time because I sincerely mean it is that I have the best team.

Chef Massey: 13:40

You know Now there's been.

Chef James: 13:42

You know, I have one guy that, who used to be my boss at Guido's in the produce department, who's been with me since the beginning, plus some.

Chef James: 13:50

Wow, that's so cool, yeah, and he's graduated from dishwashing or turning proteins and now really one of the most essential pieces of the kitchen is cooking and open fire ovens, you know so I mean then there are some other turnover, you know pieces of people that come in just due to, you know, seasonality or whatever it may be. But you know, I think it's really important when it comes to like a leadership aspect is, you know it's my job to really like, first and foremost, you have to love what you do, yeah absolutely.

Chef James: 14:17

And then people have got on my you know chops before about finding a work to life balance, which is fine. I'm not really sure if I'm doing that, but I think when you almost demonize the work aspect, when you, when you have to institute this idea of you, have to find a balance I have, but also like if what I do I'm very fortunate to have found what I do that actually feeds me, you know so that's what I love.

Chef James: 14:38

So it's my job to really set up my team. I do have it's a very small skeleton crew back at the shop that our shops, that we have there. But you know, on site for doing an event for 200 people, we could easily have, you know, eight or nine cooks in the kitchen that are working and then you know, if it's for 200 people, probably around oh, I don't know 18 or 19 for the house members.

Chef Massey: 14:59

Yeah.

Chef James: 14:59

So it's a small village that we're doing all this and you know, I really try to pay attention to each person in their roles, see what they're doing and constantly try to give them a little bit more, to kind of see Sure, absolutely, did they rise? Did they like it? Does it speak to them?

Chef Massey: 15:11

Yeah, well, and you're again. You're dealing with all the other turbulence in the waters too, you know, for staffing struggles, and now you have an operation that you're setting up out there and you're taking people staff members, if they're new and you're like, hey, you're going from a commercial kitchen setting to learning, you know, because that tending a fire for me is a very spiritual thing. It comes to the indigenous side of my family where it's life's existence, and feeding a fire is kind of like being a parent and you've got to understand when it needs to be moved, when it needs to be guided in the way that you see helping it to its future. So that's where you know that appreciation of dealing with all these elements and then also that love for, you know, community and you know I come from a multi-generational farming family, so I spent a lot of time, you know, picking up mainline and doing a lot of these things. And you know that's where I think it's very special that there's a chef and then we're also artists and I think when we are driven, that could be a very challenging trajectory, depending on how we deliver our message of internal fire.

Chef Massey: 16:26

And you know that's where I respect the fact of first, you know, knowing that I need a boundary. You know, because I have gone into those situations where you know Steph has said is this when is it ever going to be enough for you? You know, and to that point in my head right then I was like I don't know, keep going. You know, so you have this existence kind of lifestyle that it is challenging, it is hard and you are consumed, you know, on so many ways the financial side, admin side, to menu creation, to staffing challenges. So for you to do this out in the open is just it's kind of a marvel, you know.

Chef James: 17:04

Yeah Well, thank you, it takes a lot and there's a lot of stuff you touched on there. And it's so interesting because when I bring somebody on, I will tell you to this date so far, yeah, having somebody that has only culinary experience, that have been a career cook, ultimately it doesn't really work out with us. A lot of the people that I have that work with us on site are people that are. They all have second jobs and it's interesting because, considering the amount of work, I mean it's, like you know, typically a 14 to 15 hour day on site. Yeah, we show up, we set up the kitchen Right, you know, from soup to nuts, we do our best. I mean, you know, I'm also like an insane football coach. At the end of the you know event, I'll go through social media and look at every single picture that may have been tagged to see if there's anything out of place, and then I will screenshot those things and circle them and send it to the appropriate person.

Chef James: 17:52

Yeah, yeah but you know, the average age for my team is probably about 45 to 50, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, when I've had people that are professional chefs, they come in, they're used to coming in and setting up their station, yeah, and that's no longer it. I mean, there's a different thing where it's like, you know, we got to set up stuff and then we have our moments. We have like cocktail hour comes. That's the nice part. Once we know cocktail hour, is there past apps. You know stationary. We have like a beautiful burkle meat slicer that we're slicing. Those are great, they really are. And our charcuterie program, too, is like. Another thing we really try to focus on is waste reduction.

Chef James: 18:31

So for us like this time of year is a great example when we use winter squash, right so for doing a preparation, maybe we peel the squash and then we pack it into our good food cooler, bring it back to the shop and put in our X caliber dehydrator and dehydrate that and then grind it up into a powder that we can use as like a finishing seasoning or a very cool Seeds. We'll take the seeds out we'll same deal bring it back to the shop, soak them, take off the membranes, roast them and then press them into an oil. So with the oil we can set aside and then the seeds that come out of the oil press we can incorporate that, maybe with that seed powder. So then now, next time we do the dish we're using and then we'll roast the flesh, anything we can't repurpose, like maybe leftover sourdough bread because we have so many breadcrumbs- and maybe some dessert cakes or whatever.

Chef James: 19:16

those goes to a container for our livestock farmers who come and pick it up so they feed it to their animals all throughout the season. At the end of the season we'll purchase those animals from them and then turn them into charcuterie for the next season Right, and you are doing the whole setup as well with that curing, eating the whole. Yes. And that's another thing to the story, right, it's just very powerful, yeah, and you have to come up with a shop sometime and see it, because it's a beautiful system.

Chef Massey: 19:41

Yeah, I would be extremely heightened. I'm sure I couldn't help myself. But, you know, be like a kid in a candy store with that, you know. And the sponsor today is BetterHelp. Betterhelp is an online therapy service. They have 30,000 licensed therapists in their network. It's really amazing and I have enjoyed taking advantage of this opportunity with them myself because oftentimes the intensity in the kitchen, the challenges in life, I have put myself on the back burner and working with BetterHelp it has supported me in continuing my own self work but also putting me back front and center in the game of being an effective leader, partner and all of the above.

Chef Massey: 20:22

So take that questionnaire. Once you do that, you go through that system and they filter those therapists that are fit for your specific needs. They get back to you, in most cases within 48 hours or less. You can book those therapy sessions at your leisure that fit your schedule, which is truly amazing, I can say as a chef and you know, on the go and parent, it makes it very convenient. You could do those via the video chat. The instant message go to betterhelpcom, slash chefmassey and you get the 10% off first month when you do that and in that link the questionnaire is there for you. So join me on sliding to the front burner, because we deserve it. Back to the episode. Can you give an example? I think there was one you had done in Florida in an event that was just like, wow, I have got to go all the way down there. I mean, that was crazy too. Yeah, that was during COVID.

Chef Massey: 21:11

Also okay, wow, so it was really crazy.

Chef James: 21:13

So it was like late 2019, they had me to come down to just do a site visit. They put me up. It was at this, say, ritz Carlton place. No, yeah, I think it was Ritz Carlton. It'll come to me.

Chef Massey: 21:25

Oh, no worries.

Chef James: 21:26

But yeah, the first thing was, you know I'm from the country up here in the mountains. Yeah, where they take me out, I get there like, all right, we have the whole everything set up for you. We're going to be going fishing, so you might want to pack a pair of shorts. Well, I don't own shorts, I don't typically. So we're out there on, you know, in a boat and you know, catching vermillion red snapper and it was, it was fun, it was super fun, right.

Chef James: 21:49

But then we go back, we're sitting down and then, right when we got there, they made Crudo almost immediately with it and sent it up to us as, like you know, something to nibble on Now being landlocked. I've never had fish that fresh. It was like you know the sort of you know culinary directors oh, this is great. So, even before the rigor set in, oh, wow. So it was like eating these salty tabs of like sea butter. It was like the most amazing. So they had asked because, you know, every once, every once a year, we try to do a ticketed event where we create a culinary experience in a place that's not normally set up, so there's not going to be any power accessible, no bathrooms, so it's, we're bringing all that in. Yeah, you know, we did a dinner inside an old cement mine in Rosendale, new York once, where the dinner itself was in this cement mine. That was half covered in water and half. There was a lot, of, a lot of fun. So they asked me to create an experience down there.

Chef James: 22:39

So that's like you know, working with things that we don't even have up here, you know and a lot of things we work with up here, too, is invasive species, so Japanese knotweed buckthorn, you know, garlic mustard, all different kinds of stuff, yeah. So yeah, it was really interesting to crack into that and understand the wild boar down there, the lionfish, which is like really essential.

Chef Massey: 23:00

Yeah, Connery Bay was saying something about.

Chef James: 23:02

Yeah, oh, they're horrible, yeah they'll start to people that right, they want to get it. So basically, for folks that don't know, an invasive species is classified. As you know, we take something out of its regular ecosystem and ecosystem develops to keep everything in check. Now it can be from the bacteria in the soil to the birds that may be eating something. To then what eats the birds and what eats whatever on top of it. So, out of Florida, they even have a problem with the Burmese python, oh wow.

Chef James: 23:29

You know what. The natural predator that keeps a Burmese python in check is A Bengal tiger. They're not just sort of hanging out down there walking on the floor right.

Chef James: 23:38

So right. So these are all things like when I look at it, because the big thing for me is a purpose, like what is sure I want to cook and everything, but what is the bigger purpose, the bigger cause, right, right. So you know, frag mites or even not, we are brought in as ornamentals that then, once you take it out of its own ecosystem, there's nothing that keeps it in check.

Chef Massey: 23:55

So it goes bonkers.

Chef James: 23:57

So, instead of looking at that as like a pest where we want to spray it with some kind of pesticide or whatever. There's like we love not. We work it all year round when it comes up in the spring, we'll cover it and kind of treat it like white asparagus.

Chef Massey: 24:08

That's cool.

Chef James: 24:08

Yeah, I kind of blanch it Okay yeah, and then after that take it out, then blanch it in salted water and then can I keep it in like a vinaigrette and it tastes just like artichoke hearts oh, no, kidding, really beautiful and and it's so prevalent it's ridiculous like wow, and it's the best part is it's you. You can't beat the price.

Chef Massey: 24:24

Okay, it's a great, you know great, price free. Yeah, you're going well. And that's the other thing in the experience of, you know, your staff members, like I, was using milkweed pods, yeah you know, and and pickling nose and it almost has this okra like Profile to it, but it was, you know, doing those sorts of things. Again, I think it's it's mindfulness in my mind to be where my feet are, not only just as a chef, but again going to my native foundation that you know it's, it's very powerful and for you being that Pulled into it, it's just it's wonderful to see.

Chef James: 24:58

I wanted to ask you, given your heritage, I cannot remember the chef's name, but he has a cookbook called the sous chef.

Chef Massey: 25:04

Oh, yeah, I for. Yeah, he's, he's Lakota. Yep, yeah, do you have that book? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chef James: 25:10

So inspirational so because of that, I didn't even think about this. Yeah, he was talking about using juniper berries while juniper berries. Yeah, and it's so interesting, around here we don't have many cedar trees that are gonna be bearing them. I just think it's just slightly warmer over in New York State. Yeah, the growing zone is different. It's gonna go over there and collect those and dry those, and you've been using those as cracked pepper on yes.

Chef James: 25:29

Medicine dish or something you know. You know, if you, as long as you have, like a blueberry comb, one of those, you go to the shrubs. You can collect quite a bit right on Sherman, is it?

Chef Massey: 25:38

Oh yeah, that's a regular old Jamie. Yeah, that's, I know right, pulling it up, yeah, yeah totally got us.

Chef James: 25:45

Yeah, no, I mean, that is, that's right.

Chef Massey: 25:49

He does a lot of work and I think you know, again, when you're looking at indigenous eating, you know there's some very that's very simple. You're taking that aspect and it's the same thing with our settlers, any one of us that has been placed in these Environments, where you're learning your surroundings. Yes, you know the spruce tips or you know Spruce syrup or some of these things that you know that we're doing. Like I'm getting ready, I've got maple sap going and, like Dan barber now using it with the waters and you're not fully reducing it for syrup. You're in fancy. So I think it's again.

Chef Massey: 26:25

It's very powerful To show people, at least from my side, that if you just slow down in this world that we live in Mm-hmm, and you take a minute to be out at one of your events, see all the hard work that you all are doing, or going and gorging, getting burdock root, watercress or sun choke, it's a spiritual Existence, primarily for me that as a leader, it's the same way I view the woods and the lands. We are all connected here for a purpose being able to reach the land in that way. You know just that variety. It shows people your passion for just being where we are. Yeah, and I think that's very important.

Chef James: 27:08

I do as well. Yeah, I mean literally. You can walk outside and there's an entire grocery store. There is, whether it's red clover, white clover, you know. You have violets that grow out there. You could just take a take an hour and pick wild violets in the springtime you know, of course, not taking too many to disturb the bees.

Chef James: 27:25

No, they're really prolific and then make a syrup out of that, because for me, when it comes down to it, it's like food is great, a good recipe is good, but the best enhancement to a recipe is a story. Absolutely, if you can excite people about. Yeah, do you see that out there? Oh, or you know what? During COVID, a big thing we did was doing these cooking classes at people's houses. So I'd bring one of my ovens and we'd set it up and we would put together a whole menu and while food was cooking, I would then take them on their property and show them what's growing and the excitement to see what to people.

Chef Massey: 27:55

Yeah, I realize that you know I do something with it.

Chef James: 27:58

I mean, I'm just a big you know, big fan of you know. Think about like when friends was really big, or Game of Thrones or wherever it's like you know you come in. Oh, just see what happened last night. There's that water, water cooler talk, and if somebody doesn't know then you can educate them and there's a beautiful Exchange there.

Chef Massey: 28:13

Oh, it's really amazing. Yeah, any challenges that you because you pop up, you're looking, you have to look at your setup, what the terrain looks like. I mean, what kind of challenges other than quite a bit Do you deal with? I mean Set up logistics of getting everybody there. I mean it's unbelievable.

Chef James: 28:31

Yeah, it definitely has its challenges. I would say the biggest challenge. I mean, it's really it's. It's funny, it's year to year, you know so yeah, because you're going by the elements.

Chef Massey: 28:40

Your slow time, or is there a slow time? Well, we've been trying to as crazy as this is.

Chef James: 28:46

Yeah, because it we go so hard from essentially May until November. Yeah, and that's where you know, when we did 38 events of 52 weeks in a year, it's, it's, it's a lot, you know.

Chef James: 28:57

We could do an event on a Friday in one location and then we could do an event on Saturday in a completely different location. Yeah, we ended up. So we ended up doing this event, which I was amazing. You know for this other high-profile wedding that we had done this. The planner had called me two weeks before the event and it was like oh, we're doing this event in the Long Island. I know you probably can't actually do it and Mike boss for you.

Chef Massey: 29:19

Of course I'm going to tell him that though I'm like, yeah, we can make happen.

Chef James: 29:22

So we did this. You know several, you know it's it's a lot of prep leading up. Yeah, we do 90% of the work on site, but you know we're also trying to keep up on fermenting forage.

Chef James: 29:31

Oh yeah you know, our the shop. We're doing things like, you know, a oldies or salad dressings or something of that nature. So we did that event. That's like 12 hours all in. They wanted to do a late night so I left two members of the team there, I made it get into a vehicle and then, you know, logistically set up an Airbnb two hours away, you know, hoping there's no traffic or whatever. So then we drive out, crash there, get up, you know, have breakfast around the road again to drive another two hours. It's four hours away, everyone's dog tired and it's for a 30 person party. And you know, thankfully. You know I mean it's like we got it done because that's how we do it, but it is like come typically like a Sunday. I'm like dead to the gotta be absolutely other challenges.

Chef James: 30:09

I would say you know we're always going to me, for me, like, this is the thing all day long we will plan as we should, but also there's gonna be curveballs. You just have to accept that. Yeah, it was like I always tell the team. It's not about like how much you plan, it's about getting rocked on the chin and still moving forward. And also not letting them see a sweat.

Chef Massey: 30:29

Right, that's the big thing you know.

Chef James: 30:31

So you know, dealing with the curve balls or something, I just sort of have become second nature. But yeah, I mean, I think those are the big things I mean truthfully in this area. The thing that I'm really I mean it's in. This is a challenge that I don't know, as though it's solely for just on me, but the thing I worry about, and the thing that ultimately does affect me, I guess in the same way is that we're really pushing the envelope when it comes to food, and I wanted you that and I want to also share that with people.

Chef James: 31:01

Yeah, now, the thing that scares me is that I feel like in this area and I know that it's just becoming increasingly More expensive to live here it's harder to get people here. Is that okay? Ultimately, no one's going to work for you forever. If they do, and they're really great employee, you know, bless your stars and everything, but if they leave, you want to set them up for success and you want the next thing they go Onto to, really to give them another experience in this area, and those are the things I worry about here, and I think it also is limiting to having access to really skilled cooks. That's the big thing is that I've that's. That's the wall I'm hitting now. Yeah, yeah, with having you know somebody that's gonna be a key member of my team because ultimately, the goal is to grow into something where we can control the entire experience. Yeah, I love having people up to our tasting room for small, because we do intimate dinners up there as well.

Chef Massey: 31:51

Oh OK.

Chef James: 31:52

Yeah, we can do dinners for 24 people. We just do one where I go hunting with my neighbor and that's kind of how I start as one here. He asked me hey, do you want to go hunting? I'm like yeah, sure, we went out and got a nice beautiful doe. Then I was right around kind of shortly thereafter with COVID in 2021,. I've always wanted to go to Noma. I had tickets to go to Noma and the fat duck and it was like oh, how can you get these tickets?

Chef Massey: 32:13

But then of course COVID hit.

Chef James: 32:15

Yeah, so that was gone. I'm like, well, if I can't go there, I want to create my own version of their game menu. So it creates something called Wildland, which is sort of a look at the Berkshire at that time of year lots of preserves, going fishing, getting like pickerel wild duck venison and just playing with a lot of other ingredients, like birch, working with birch wood.

Chef Massey: 32:34

Oh yeah, have you ever worked with birch wood, where you get?

Chef James: 32:36

to steep it in cream and milk, it makes the most amazing ice cream.

Chef Massey: 32:39

No, I have not done that. No, oh, it's wild.

Chef James: 32:42

And the magic comes when you add vinegar to it.

Chef Massey: 32:44

OK, yep.

Chef James: 32:45

Yeah, we did just do. This year we did sort of a take on a deconstructed root beer float where you get like a sassafras ice cream. That's cool. Ginger cotton candy.

Chef Massey: 32:56

Yeah, oh OK, and did like a oh, very nice, wow, man, yeah, and a sassapar.

Chef James: 33:00

It's like you know. I have one of those vegetable peelers that can peel the apples out super long, oh yes, and rolled that up and poached that in a sassaparilla syrup OK, and then dunked that in a white chocolate that was flavored with like a root beer extract Interesting and then did like a wrap around it so it looks like a log when you cut into it, but all of those components and then like an anise shortbread cookie to go in oh OK, oh, that's kind of nice Licorice root yeah.

Chef James: 33:24

Oh, very cool. So playing with that stuff, playing with surround sound up there, we play with smells, we build these tables that we can put a little key into them and went to remove the center leaf, you can crank something up and the charcuterie board came out of the center of the table. Not a wild stuff.

Chef Massey: 33:38

So how do you I mean because you know, a visionary, it's hard for us to you know you develop your team, you develop the leadership team with you and you, you know the big goal is to try to be able to be freed up enough from the operation so that you can build the road ahead while still being involved with the team. That's hard. You're thinking of things that are. You know that you may have to get for a number of those to create that mechanic and the yeah, yeah, it's incredibly challenging.

Chef James: 34:12

Yeah, it was going. If you could go back to 2021, when the government was getting these checks that were, you know, the government was giving checks people to be able to live, which was great, and we took advantage of it through a business as well.

Chef James: 34:26

Okay Of course, but you know, it was very hard to get local talent to work Right. So now, 2021, we're doing events that we quoted in 2019. So, you know, we're looking at now having to bring in a staffing agency from New York City which we're going to be paying twice the amount of money for what we had quoted it for, and then the captain's $80 an hour. So we took a shellacking, yeah for sure, in 2021. But you know, and around here we're so close to New York City and so close to Boston, so the folks that are really passionate are either going to go to that place or maybe they go to a Mirror of All or what have you.

Chef James: 35:02

But that's where, you know, we are taking the team members that are here and I'm trying to awaken a passion inside of them. That is certainly the hardest thing to get, I think, right now, because a lot of people around here I've had folks on that, you know have made choices in their lives that maybe in those moments they didn't think were the greatest choices, and you know. So now they're sort of working those out. But it also interferes with you can't have your cake and eat it too, you know.

Chef Massey: 35:28

Yeah, especially in this industry. Right, like it almost demands everything out of you. It absolutely does at all levels. That's really hard, yeah. The thing is is getting the team together and you know where we're going with these challenges of staffing levels, with some operations. Ai is involved, oh yeah, you know, like that restaurant that opened in California the other day, or that has AI. I mean, it's a burger restaurant, sure Quick food, so they do the burger to the fries, to everything, and Is it like that arm thing yeah?

Chef Massey: 35:59

The whole thing out of goes. Build the burger, you know, and there's, you know, humans will do the finishing touches. Sure, and that's like, I think, spice over there in Boston. That is it Daniel Balloud Chef Balloud is a part of with those, those engineers that designed those robots that basically do these, that spinning walk bowl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there you have people finishing it and then out it goes.

Chef James: 36:26

What do you think about that?

Chef Massey: 36:27

I mean, you know it's hard because I think in some sides, I guess again we're getting away from some of the ability to have the craft or that element involved. But in some establishments like fast, casual or healthcare, even where maybe somebody is working on those lines that it's like wow, you may have to consider that you could do put something there like that. Yeah, now, on the sense of you know the other side of the culinary world, where you know high end and Michelin star and X into restaurants and all the way to what you're doing in the elements, yeah, I don't see Tesla rolling out there and stacking with you, but I you know.

Chef Massey: 37:11

Hey, you know if you're listening yeah we know I would love to do that yeah right, I mean, but we're looking at an industry we've taken a pretty hard hit. So again you said you know, have your cake and eat it too. I mean, we're in a, you know what do we want, and in some sides that may be dishwasher to these positions, you know. But boy, if it's not a little scary too, yeah yeah, certainly it is.

Chef James: 37:41

Yeah, I mean I don't know. I think the other thing that I feel so old saying this, and this is a whole discussion in itself. But you know, I get to this stage now in my life where I'm hiring, looking at younger folks, and I see some of the passion like for me. I'm always like banging on this drum in the Berkshires that I like. Why can't we have more of a community? I mean, I've gone to the like beer dinner with several other chefs in the Berkshires here, been a part of that and it's so much fun.

Chef James: 38:10

Every time I do it it's like, oh, I'm so reminded of why this is amazing and what can we do? I don't know if it's just a symptom of everyone's so overtaxed here in the Berkshires where they don't have the bandwidth to be able to think of a bigger picture, to do something that could be, I don't know, something where we all, just you know, could maybe do a dinner.

Chef Massey: 38:29

Berkshire Grown used to do dinners like that sort of a maple dinner. Yeah, that's right, I'm not sure.

Chef James: 38:33

Do you know if they're still doing those?

Chef Massey: 38:35

I haven't heard of those. I don't know. Yeah, they had stopped there for a minute, I thought, but they were doing it over at Mir. Was it Cranwell back in the day?

Chef James: 38:43

I feel like it rotated. There was a dinner, that. So, peter Platt, one of your episodes here, right before COVID came, I sat down with him and a bunch of the chefs, and it's funny. One of them is Ben, who used to be at Alta they have Dare Bottle Shop in Lenox and we worked with them on a couple of dinners, but it was going to be something like that, like a Berkshire Grown dinner. Of course the plug got pulled, yeah.

Chef Massey: 39:09

Right.

Chef James: 39:10

You know. So you know that said going with like a younger generation, I've hired people where you see it in the day, I sort of see that twinkle on the same thing, but like there's a as I think with all of us maybe when we're young, I certainly can attest to myself you do have to pay your dues and this industry is not, you know, as long as you're doing stuff. I think like we've had issues before where I want to bring folks out to go foraging, but we also there's the work that has to get done too.

Chef Massey: 39:35

Right, and so you know you're picking in the field and going back building the menu and doing it that night.

Chef James: 39:39

Yeah, Because nobody wants to be there until 10.30 on a Friday getting ready for a, you know, big day on Saturday, Right, Right, exactly.

Chef Massey: 39:46

And those are the challenges, you know. So I mean, hopefully, maybe that opens it up to you know, those of you that are listening, maybe there's a an opportunity, as we get to the other side of some of these challenges, we can start that up again. You know, because I think we're just existing in this moment.

Chef James: 40:02

Yeah, you know, and it's hard to get it and maybe I'm just out of touch too, but you know railroad street youth project where I think they maybe still have this culinary sort of I'm not sure they saw that program.

Chef Massey: 40:13

Yeah, they did. Z Vasos. Chef Vasos was a big piece to that for quite some time. I don't know if he's still doing that or not. I'd have to go back to the website, but that was.

Chef James: 40:24

That's a great opportunity, it is yeah, and maybe it's just a matter of connecting some dots, because I would love to be a part of that, and have people come on. Yeah, that'd be great so we have to yeah, yeah, and we have to support each other, absolutely.

Chef Massey: 40:36

It's such a great point. So, all right. Well, james, thank you for being here. It was great to share the time and thanks for enlightening me more. You know I've had a respect and appreciation and I'm pretty wise between the ears still nowadays, but but you know, I think having good conversation, you know, thank you for all of that.

Chef James: 40:55

Absolutely. I feel, like we barely scratched the surface, but we did Absolutely Thank you.

Chef Massey: 41:02

Yeah, my pleasure, and it'd be great to do this again. So, jackson, thank you, and it's good to see you back from LA.

Chef James: 41:07

Thank you, good to have you Good to have you.

Chef Massey: 41:11

Where can we find your stuff?

Chef James: 41:13

Oh yeah, our stuff, AeroLoomFirecom, and we do have a dinner. I just think there may be a few seats open that are going to be at the Berkshire Botanical Gardens. Oh wow, 30th. I want to say Okay, so it's going to be the small, highly interactive dinners with you know coming up with a whole bunch of weird stuff which you know, if we're going to something, you know if we're going to sub out the fire. I got to bring something also. Okay, that's exciting. So a lot of different, you know, interactive components.

Chef Massey: 41:37

Well, we know you will, so people are going to be very fortunate for that. So, all right, thank you. All right, we'll be. Well, you too. Take care everyone. Thank you. Yeah, all right, everyone. That is a wrap. You can check us out if you like that. Subscribe Also the Instagram, chefmassie. Let's keep it simple, chefmassiecom. Have a good one. Bye for now.