Transforming Culinary Culture through Mindful Leadership

Ever wondered how aligning your personal core values with your job can save you from burnout? This episode of Chef Life Radio dives deep into the journey of transitioning from a culinary professional to a podcast host and leadership coach. Discover how Chef Life Radio evolved from a simple means of keeping in touch with former colleagues into a powerful platform for discussing leadership and personal growth within the culinary industry. Creating a supportive and structured work environment is no small feat, especially in an industry notorious for its high-pressure conditions. In this chapter, we challenge the old-school mentality of hoarding knowledge and emphasize the importance of nurturing each team member's strengths. Learn why succession planning is essential for long-term success and how mindful leadership can transform your operation into a high-performing, cohesive team. We also delve into the pitfalls of glorifying overwork and the critical need for leaders who foster professional development and sustainable practices to thrive in today's culinary landscape.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:30

I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you being on Chef. My pleasure, sir, my pleasure. You have your podcast, chef Life Radio and also Chef Life Coaching. Did I get that? That's correct. Yeah, so you know it was your share on chow. Thank you for that. On the industry and the many things that you know everyone goes through, I just wanted to share that real quick to appreciate you, thanks, and it, you know, proves the.

Speaker 2: 0:44

And it proves the point that talking about this stuff is really important and the fact that you gravitated towards that message. I'm very grateful, for sure.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Would you mind going into Chef Life Radio and then going into the Chef Life coaching, because it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 0:57

So I started in 2014. I was actually in Canada dating a Canadian woman. I didn't have a work permit so I thought, hmm, what am I going to do with my time? Oh, I know I'll start a podcast, as if I even knew what that meant in 2014. And back in the days, that meant, you know, learning WordPress and building a website and you know kind of cobbling together and bootstrapping all these different technologies. Now, thankfully, it's a much easier process to start a podcast and stay consistent with it, but it started out as a kind of a drunken love letter back to the crew that I missed.

Speaker 2: 1:29

I'd worked at the Omni Homestead in Virginia for a year and a half and you know, at peak it's a staff of 165 over. You know seven kitchens and 15 restaurants. So I really missed that crew. So I thought you know what a great way to stay connected to them, that crew. So I thought you know what a great way to stay connected to them.

Speaker 2: 1:46

And very quickly I came up with a thought that you know maybe this is a great outlet for talking about something more poignant or more impactful for the industry. So I started out for the question. You know, two chefs given equal skill sets, why would some cooks follow one and not the other? And they kept saying, well, it's leadership, it's leadership. And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of a red herring. It doesn't really tell me anything Like what are the attributes or what are the ways of being that the chef is engaged in that would have you follow them. So that kind of sent me down the rabbit hole, and I've been a student of, you know high-performing leadership ever since then, and so Chef Life Radio has given me a platform to talk about, specifically about the fact that you know, leadership is not anything that's taught in culinary school. Very rarely is there anybody you know who hasn't gone to culinary school, maybe someone like me who's basically again kind of bootstrapped or way through the industry. There's never an opportunity where someone says, hey, let me give you a class in leadership, because ultimately it comes down to you know, you being able to move a group of people towards a certain outcome, and very often that group could have, you know, six or seven different ethnicities, three different languages, certainly different levels of schooling and understanding. So it's the biggest challenge that we face as industry experts, and so I thought that I would again kind of be a student of that and kind of come back to the podcast and kind of let everybody know what I've been finding. So that's how it started.

Speaker 2: 3:08

And then COVID hit and, you know, the industry lost six million jobs. And I thought to myself, well gosh, if there's ever a time to like bring back the podcast, this would be it. Because maybe, maybe people like me you know who you know fell into a particular job, did very well at it and just kind of like follow that that fluid path and like now there's another job and there's now there's another job, and now there's another job, there's a mortgage, there's a car payment, your family starts filling out again. But did you know?

Speaker 2: 3:34

At what point did we ever just sit down and say, yes, this is what I want to do. And so I thought if folks were going to take this time out now, maybe see what it's like to be home, and if they want to come back to the industry, this is a great opportunity for them to really give some thought as to what their core values are and align themselves with an employer that reflects those core values. Because very often I talk to a lot of chefs and one of the first things they say is they don't feel appreciated, and typically that comes about because you're misaligned with your employer's core values.

Speaker 2: 4:02

It's about as simple as that, that maybe you want to be home by seven o'clock to be with your family because your kids are small and right now that's what's most important to you, but your employer actually expects you to do other things, like being there all the time. So very often I found that the frustration it comes back down to a misalignment. So again, kind of using the podcast as a, as a jumping off point to have these conversations and then to support the chefs in the industry by offering coaching from Chef, life Coaching as kind of a way to kind of bring them back and reignite the fire that got them here in the first place.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Wow, you know, I think, going over your duration of time. What, what did you? What were the points? I mean, what were the challenges in your life that made you make this shift for yourself?

Speaker 2: 4:43

Yeah, there's probably three or four really clear examples of my humiliation, to put it bluntly and I'm not talking about being humiliated from the outside I'll give a great example. There was a dishwasher that I was working with and I'm a product of the 80s and 90s and aughts where to be a passionate chef was basically code switch for I can be an asshole and get away with it. Right, yeah, yes, and that and a lot of that behavior was enabled, right. So if lawyers saw somebody who was like really talented, a lot of times you know they weren't going to call them out for you know drinking on the line or talking, or you know doing lines in the bathroom or whatever that conversation was. But there was a dishwasher who I worked with and happy-go-lucky guy and was always kind of upbeat, but every time I turned my head he was like doing something wrong. And one night I took him into the office and gave him a good dressing down and this man fell to his knees, screaming like a wounded animal. He was an immigrant, where that type of behavior is commonplace, but for me it completely shocked me out of my, out of my, my chef mode and then rocked me back to like, holy shit, I'm a, I'm a human being mode. And here I did. I took away this man's dignity and what I've always known is that, you know, a man with no dignity is, is willing to, is capable of almost anything. So I was really, really shocked at my, at the way that it was taken and I, you know, got down on my knees and helped him back up to his feet and said, okay, bro, I'll figure out another way, like there's gotta be another way to do this. So there've been a couple of times when I've failed completely miserably and where I had to look at my ways of being and say, yeah, there's gotta be another way.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Man, because I think ultimately, you, because I think ultimately, you know, everybody made a big deal about when the millennials were coming into the industry, like they're talking about, they want this and they want that. God damn it. I didn't want this. And you know, a lot of the older chefs were really pissed off because they never got that stuff Right. But I don't think that, but I think that all of us wanted the same thing. We just came in and looked around and said, well, fuck, I'm not going to get that. Holy shit, I just, I'll just keep my mouth shut Right, like don't be a whiny little bitch, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 6:47

And yet they weren't asking for anything more than what we wanted. You know basic human dignity, you know making sure that you know we had a clear career path or career trajectory, making sure that you know we're valued as a whole human being and not just a name on a schedule or or a position. You know, given an opportunity to learn more so that we can become more. You know we all wanted these things and sometimes, you know, back in the old days, you had to kind of again kind of bootstrap that stuff around. I mean the old adage of the chef with the shoulder up. You know you're trying to look around his shoulder to see what he's doing. You know, because he's got this big secret that he's trying to hide yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:27

Yeah, and all these tricks of trade that we, that we grew up with. And yet, when it comes down to, when we're creating an environment where everybody feels supported, you know, there's a certain structure and willingness on the part of management and leadership to actually create an environment where people have an opportunity to learn to do better. Like, listen, man, I you've got the skills for this particular job. I want to know what the job that you want after this skill set is necessary for there, and let's start working on that stuff here, because ultimately, um, you know, building those skill sets only supports your organization and your on your operation more. And I don't know about you, man, but I don't want to be the last one on the line.

Speaker 1: 7:58

No no no Right.

Speaker 2: 8:00

So, unless, so, unless we're willing to share those gifts and do it in a in a structured, supportive way, then you know, we're just we're setting ourselves up for failure. I mean, it's nice to be wanted, right, it's nice to be the one, um, uh, I used to call it like being the apex predator, you know, be the shark in the punch bowl. Um, it's nice to be the chef. And yet the clear realization is that, you know, my biggest takeaway is that a Right, not not in spite of, but because of Right, wow that says something about the chef that's actually running that operation.

Speaker 2: 8:35

Right, that of like holding everybody down and you know you're going to fit this suppressing Right?

Speaker 1: 8:40

Exactly. Wow. Well, and that's where I think you know, when I came up, I mean you would have been obviously my senior in the kitchen, but like, but I mean I'll respect, you know, I'll respect for that, right, I mean, you know, I was 91, 92 coming into the industry and for me, I looked at the industry and I'm like this is more normal than my home life. Right, like, what do you? What are you crying about? Like I was hungry to actually show the chef, like that I was worth something. And in the kitchen environment, you know, you became that sponge. You know, if you showed a sign of weakness or a sign of that you needed something, it was a sign of weakness. It was like a wolf pack. You know, everybody's volleying for the next up, I mean, and you do get a dysfunctional family too, because you do get the clicks or you take care of each other, but the weakness doesn't survive, right, right, and you're right, the apex situation.

Speaker 2: 9:41

You know the thing is is that you know somebody can be very, very talented or very good at a particular position. Yeah, Ultimately, as a, as a leader, your job is to put people in positions to succeed. Yeah and um, and a lot of that backbiting bullshit, I think, which I think continues to this day. I think we as a community, as a fraternity, our own worst enemies. You know, we're the ones making it hard on ourselves, like this lionization of overwork. Like dude, I put in 70 hours last week or I put in 80 hours, oh yeah, I mean to me that's complete fucking horseshit. Like I say, hashtag fuck the grind, because all it is is an excuse to like grind somebody else up.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Yeah, if we're not, if we're not going to support one another and I'm not talking about and tell them that they're special, I'm just saying that within an organization, within a, if it was Phil Jackson putting together the 1985 Chicago Bulls, he knows that there's certain people that are going to do better in particular situations and in particular circumstances. So it's really, really important to be able to match those skill sets with the positions that are available and to provide everybody an opportunity to train up to the next position. Right, one of the biggest problems we have right now is that you know we are constantly understaffed. Well, how many of us have actually created a succession plan and started slotting those names in and trying to figure out who's going to fill that slot? Because you know, at some point the sous chef's going to go out on his own, so we're not training that person that's going to fill that position.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Now, right, being like a surprise at the end, like okay, well, I guess we're going to have to do this, and then we get completely, totally unappaired for it. So it's like the difference between a mature professional and a mature professional. A mature professional look at the organization and go okay, from a clear-eyed neutral perspective. How do we build this machine to continue to produce at a high level for the foreseeable future? And it's like you know I can't stress enough that a lot of the times the environment is so fast, things are happening at such a quick level that we never have time to actually sit down and do that kind of work.

Speaker 2: 11:43

However, if we ever make time to do that work, then we're always a victim of the fact that it's moving so fast.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Right, exactly, and it ends up being this codependency, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And maladaptive behaviors come into the mix. Yep, so wow Again. I know we're trying to work on mindfulness and really understanding the machine and this nurturing philosophy. Do you think at some point sometimes we've kind of created where you know we're missing some of that grit or we're going to lose traction on that kind of heart? Do you ever see that?

Speaker 2: 12:14

Well so so you mentioned two things. You mentioned grit and heart. So I would say, first and foremost and speaking for myself, and today is a great example you know, last week was a very frustrating week. I mean, there was a lots of stuff going on and I took my time on Sunday to kind of map out my week and get all my time blocks together, and then this morning rolled around and I felt completely frustrated by everything, and so what I knew that was necessary is for me to actually take a step back and take time for myself, because if I showed up in any of my different areas in which I participate whether that's Chow and now as an ambassador or chef life radio or chef life coaching if I show up in any one of those spots and I'm not grounded, then it's going to be bad for me, right, I'm going to show up very, very poorly. So if that means that I need to carve out a little bit more time for me to take some space, or that means I need, you know, to get back to my meditation in the morning, um, or my exercise, you know, to get back to my meditation in the morning or my exercise, you know, all those things help me to keep grounded all the way through my day.

Speaker 2: 13:15

So I would think that, first off, us taking that time to get grounded allows us to open up our heart. So there's our heart right there. Our grit comes from just the fact that you know this is an industry we'd love and that's part of the game. Okay, well, we can do that. I sit and slam for 12, 14, 16 hours. Okay, you kind of set yourself up as a mindset for that. But the more that you're doing that as as a consequence of or as a result of, you know, maybe not preparing properly I mean, I've seen, you know, grown adults, you know, drinking Pedialyte on the line. You know their hangover from the last night or you know, whatever that is no family meal.

Speaker 2: 13:51

Yeah, exactly. So if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're not leading yourself, then it's patently impossible to do that for anyone. So I'll start with you first.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Okay, well, I have to share, like my leadership philosophy has always been grounded in my indigenous belief system that it's a great responsibility to be a leader and to guide and protect the people at all times, and that you know it's that servant leadership style. So on my side of it, it can get. You know, I'm giving, giving, and you still have to replenish the well, like you said.

Speaker 1: 14:27

Yeah, you got nothing left, man, after giving to everybody else, and it's right, and but I've also found the way that I nurture with, you know, the sous chefs and chef de parties and everybody in the system, that it is a healthy system that does promote the growth you're talking about. Certainly, you know, and there is a huge benefit to doing that, but it has its own stressors, like you.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Sure, I mean, for me it was the big shift came from when I realized that this could no longer be about me, that it had to be about the team. So it became we instead of me. Yeah, from that standpoint it's like okay, so who am I supposed to be in that environment? Like, how do I show up such that they all get it, that they know that they're you know protected, that they're safe, that there's an opportunity outside of the next several hours for them to grow, and so when you talk about servant leadership, I think it's incredibly powerful to view yourself in that way, because the alternative is that you are the king of the castle and the apex predator and you have to bend everybody to your will.

Speaker 2: 15:29

There's lots of documentaries out there from about some very famous chefs who ran their kitchens that way because they were so consumed about their vision of a type of cuisine that they wanted to produce. They were so clear on that that they couldn't let anything else, you know, get in the way of that, and everything else served that purpose. I would like to flip the script and say that, like, the better that we take care of our people, the better that they're going to take care of the guest, and that circle of life continues from that standpoint. As a matter of fact, more we invest in our associates and our associate environment, the more it's going to pay off by, you know, having really great places to go and eat. So, and again it comes back to this dumb thing like if you're not taking care of yourself, bro, if you're not refilling your cup right, one of the one of I'm famous for saying like, uh, you know, I've had people come up to me chef. You know, this has been my entire life. I really want to be a chef. You know, it's all I've ever wanted to be.

Speaker 2: 16:32

I'm muse, whether that's through our kind of domestication or conditioning or our belief system. You know, we have this channel to the creative and that comes out, as you know, the food that we make, the interactions that we have with our people. But if you're completely vested in that, as from your work standpoint, like that's the only place you can get it, then what happens when you have to hang up your apron Right Some point? All of us have to. So to get a hobby, to do something, to be able to feed that creative force, is incredibly powerful, because now you get to shift from out of work. I know guys who, who made furniture. Wow, there's one guy in a particular. He started out by making shelves and let me tell you, he wasn't very good to begin with the banquet chef, but he makes some, absolutely. He makes some of the most stunning cutting boards I've ever seen. But he's he understood that he had needed something else other than work in order to feed his soul.

Speaker 1: 17:26

Okay.

Speaker 2: 17:27

And that's powerful. And, james, when you're talking about like you got into this business because of you know the thing that you felt like you needed, all of us, to a certain extent, came to this business with a hole in our heart that needed to be filled in some way. For me it was about relationship. For me it was about family. So the very first time I was ever in a commercial kitchen and I saw the way everybody was together, I was like hooked. I'm like, oh shit was together. I was like hooked. I'm like oh man, shit. Yet I also understood that I couldn't. So for a while that worked right.

Speaker 2: 17:56

Until it no longer worked and then I realized that, oh, I got to feel some other way and the only way that you could do that was through meditation and through spending some time alone and being out in nature and having some other things like a podcast or writing or other things to do. So it's kind of like like the more the muscle that you get to exercise about how I get my cup, because when I show up I really want to be the best leader I can be. I want to be the best I can be. I want to be the best you know associate connection that I can be, and the only way I can do that is by consistently filling my cup. Because I've been on the other side, where you know my cup is empty, and made lots of mistakes. As a matter of fact, had at the very end of COVID man, I was so burnt I had no idea I was that burnt. And then I went on a meditation retreat and came back and then had to take all my managers off the side and apologize to each and every one of them. Look, I know I dropped the ball, I wasn't there.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Like having these really authentic, heart opening conversations about like listen, I can see where I, where I messed up, Like can you commit to another relation? Can you commit to a different relationship? Can you trust me now? Can, like? How do we move forward together? Having those type of really open, vulnerable, transparent conversations, you know, takes a lot of guts and a little bit of skill, but point being is that someone shows up that way to you. The very first thing I think for me would be like of course, I forgive you. And how do we move forward together? Because there's so much I think we're wired to, first off, be in community and, second, to like, be forgiving of other people's foibles, because we see the foibles within ourselves. Yet if we're all being strapped with that grind armor where we never show our heart to anybody, just like, how we're going to get through and grit this thing through? It's a lot harder to have those conversations.

Speaker 1: 19:38

Yeah, no kidding, wow. Well, and looking at, you know the state of the industry and I know you mentioned some points there. Maybe putting it all together, how, how do you see us getting out of this? You know we got through the mass exodus and now we're dealing with the other side of it and coming through. What do you advise on how we get through the staffing crunch?

Speaker 2: 19:59

techniques and yeah, I mean, there's so much there. So you know, first off, it has to come down from getting really clear about your core values and how your core values are being served with the community that you're in. I'm not advocating that people look for other jobs, but I am advocating that now's a great time to look at where you're at to see if it actually serves you, because if it does, then everything else becomes as a consequence of that. A great example was I had a chef or sous chef who I promoted to a chef and, um, after about six months he asked me to demote him again. I'm like, dude, what do you want to go back to sous chef? It's like my kids are five and seven. Man, I want to be home to tuck them in at night, cause they're only going to be this small for a little while, and so I want to be there for them. And I was kind of like kicked back on my heels because I thought, holy shit, man, this guy's thinking about his family instead of his career and you know, guiltily thought about my own career, but I don't think I ever had that conversation. But he's right, of course he's there right, and if he's in a job where that's being served, I think he shows up in a much more powerful way. So the same way for all of us.

Speaker 2: 21:12

I think it's a really important thing to make sure that the organization that we're with are aligned, and second of all is to look at the organization and realize you know that, you know, listen, it's really, really hard to have any of these thoughts when all you're doing is just trying to get through the night. Right, exactly. But yet there's going to be a time like it, no-transcript, where they're protected and where they have a clear career path. I think that's a great start, because word gets out If things are, if things are changing in a particular environment, particular restaurant, and all of a sudden, folks are feeling nurtured and cared for. And I hesitate to say nurture, because I think nurture has this connotation again of saying, oh, you're special. No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about valuing somebody for the whole human being that they are, and that's a different thing. I think communication is something that we can all tap into right away.

Speaker 2: 22:26

I think stand-up shift meetings are incredibly important Stand-up meetings as just a way of continuing to have conversations with folks, checking in, with seeing how everybody's doing emotionally. There's all kinds of different things. Like Chow has a great restaurant wellness toolkit that you can download for free, which is a great, was a very powerful way of again kind of communicating to the staff that you're more than just a name or you're more than just a position. I think people will. You know, people want to be cared for. They want to. They don't want to show up and do a shitty job, but if they feel like they're kind of stuck in this situation where they're going to continue to show up as doing a shitty job, then it's really really hard for them to get up in the morning and have any kind of any kind of gusto. So this whole idea of holding it all loosely and as a way of moving forward, creating an environment where like, okay, it's not perfect, but we're a work in progress and this is what we're committed to, and then to continue to show up to drop those kinds of things like the wellness toolkit, is really really important.

Speaker 2: 23:23

You know, chow does a call, a Zoom call, almost every night. They're based out of Denver. On Wednesdays they have a men's only call. I think there's another women's only call where hospitality professionals can show up on the Zoom call and talk, or not talk, about their day or their week. Sobriety is not a prerequisite to show up in these meetings, but it's a way to kind of feel connected to others that might not necessarily be in your environment. Also is a great way of like tapping into the bigger culture of service. Like sometimes it's easy to forget that we're in the hospitality business and so that means like by its very nature we are in service to someone else, which means sometimes we have to subserve our particular needs in that particular moment, but that doesn't mean that it's a lifelong thing and we continue to subserve our needs for any extended time. That's actually healthy. So all those things are really, really important in growing a community. So if we start looking at our staff as not a family but as a team or as a community and how do you build community I think is a perfect way of tapping into those resources that are already out there. Like I got your back or not? Nine to five or chow.

Speaker 2: 24:34

There's all kinds of organizations and processes available now that didn't exist pre COVID. I mean they did, but no, it wasn't on anybody's radar Right. And then, once COVID hit, and all of a sudden everybody's wellness and like, oh my shit. And I just want to say one other thing before we go is that a lot of things post COVID, every a lot of companies started putting in these wellness initiatives and what they discovered is that, in in review, what they discovered is that most of these initiatives fell flat because they didn't necessarily address the underlying cause. So they could say they could say, okay, so there's a particular program that's available now where you contract with a local counselor and it's an anonymous service where someone anybody in the staff can call and get a meeting with a healthcare professional or mental health professional and sit down and talk to them, and the only thing HR knows is that there's just the X name for a bill. It's completely anonymous, yet if really not dealing with the underlying issues.

Speaker 2: 25:42

So a couple of years ago, oregon instituted prop I think 101 or 110, which is legalization of all drugs, and at the same time it set up this infrastructure, for if someone was caught on the street with drugs, you could find $100 and you got referred to a health care clinic or some type of rehab or whatever. Wow, the problem was is that the health care or the mental health infrastructure never got built up. So several years later, they're seeing these guys shooting on the street and they can't figure out what the hell's going on. Well, they could pay their $100, but they can't get it. They can't get a bed in anywhere, wow.

Speaker 2: 26:14

So one thing doesn't necessarily equate to the other. So if you're going to create an environment where there's an opportunity, you need to make sure that that opportunity actually is this and and the things on the ground floor, like elbow to elbow, like, if you're talking about improving your culture, well, improve your culture, yeah, but don't put a bandaid on it and say, okay, well, you can go talk to somebody about the culture, okay, without, without actually changing the culture. Does that make sense? Exactly? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:40

Oh, yeah, from the ground up. So can I just ask real quick, when you, when you go in and you're doing your coaching and working through that process, can you give an example how you engage and work with like a food and beverage group as you start? Yeah, I have a.

Speaker 2: 26:54

I have a client right now out in California. They it's a independent restaurant, 110 seats. They're looking to build this particular concept up to 10, 12 locations.

Speaker 2: 27:04

And the first thing I kind of came in as a consultant slash coach and now my job has shifted to primarily leadership coaching. So I speak with every single one of the managers and assistant managers. So I speak to them every other week in a structured coaching format and I also speak to all the hourly staff once a month. So it's an environment by which I support the mission moving forward and yet I also give them an opportunity to be kind of transparent and vulnerable in a space where they know that I am going to hold all that confidential and basically what I do is I just I support the mission by giving my partner a call log and and some and some notes about what happened, without going into anything that would be, you know, considered confidential. So it's kind of one of these opportunities to like there's the, there's a conversation that's happening in the moment and then there's a leadership trajectory that happens over a long period of time maybe three to six months.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Okay, that's really cool. Do you do individual coaching, one-on-ones?

Speaker 2: 28:03

Yep, I do one-on-ones and I also do group group coaching. I'm looking to um work with some organizations who may be, you know, anywhere from three to seven, three to ten locations Maybe it's a boutique hotel group or a restaurant group and be able to coach and mentor their culinary leadership.

Speaker 1: 28:23

OK, well, and how can they reach out to you? I mean obviously your website.

Speaker 2: 28:27

Yeah, absolutely they can. They can email me at Adam at ChefLifeRadiocom. You can check out the website at ChefLifeRadcom or chef life coachingcom. Chef radio is on every single podcast uh aggregator out there um, and you can text me at 828-407-3359 a lot of availability.

Speaker 1: 28:45

Yeah, thank you for all that opportunity then I want to be.

Speaker 2: 28:48

I want to be open and available and you know, there's there's certain office hours and stuff and maybe, yeah, it's my phone at two o'clock yeah, 2 am.

Speaker 1: 28:55

Yeah, if you've got a question.

Speaker 2: 28:57

I want to be able to answer it, for sure so cool.

Speaker 1: 28:59

Okay, all right. Well, thank you, chef, I appreciate your time and uh thanks, appreciate it yeah, all right, everyone, that is a wrap. You can check us out if you like that. Subscribe Also the Instagram Chef Massey. Let's keep it simple, chefmasseycom. Have a good one. Bye for now.