From Neighborhood Market to Seafood Pioneer: Alisha Explores the Evolution and Sustainability of Wulf’s Fish

Can a neighborhood fish market transform into a powerhouse in the seafood industry? Join us on Chef Sense as we explore the remarkable story of Wolf's Fish, guided by Alishia, the Director of Marketing and Brand Strategy. From its origins in Brookline in 1926, founded by Sam Wolf, to becoming a top wholesale distributor, Alicia shares how their team of chef insiders, including herself, continually elevate their offerings to meet the demanding needs of other chefs. Alisha takes us through the high-stakes, fast-paced decisions that define this vibrant industry. We delve into the critical importance of integrity, traceability, and sustainability in sourcing, and how these factors contribute to Wulf's Fish's long-standing reputation for excellence. The episode also sheds light on the specialized roles within this ecosystem, from tuna buyers to shellfish experts, and the pride that comes from providing near-century old top-quality seafood.

Thank you Alisha Lumea and Wulf's Fish!!,
https://wulfsfish.com/

Thank you to our listeners!!

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Transcript

Chef James: 0:14

Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense. I'm your host, chef Massey. Okay, so today on the podcast we have Alisha from Wulf's Fish. Thanks for being on.

Chef James: 0:25

Thanks for having me Just to kind of go into real quick my background with connecting with you guys at Wolf's Fish, which you guys have such amazing product. It first came through Berkshire, so you know, I know that there was that merge there and we can probably talk about that. But again, phenomenal product, you know, and integrity that you guys have there, can you go into your role, I guess, starting at ground zero of what you do there and kind of work into the history and the vision of Wulf's Fish and maybe even the merge?

Alisha: 0:57

Sure, so my role with Wolves is I'm the director of marketing and brand strategy, so I've been in the seafood industry since 2009. It's kind of setting up now Awesome, and actually started with another company that's become a division of Wolf's, which is Clean Fish, which is working with sustainable producers from around the world, which they're great as well, yeah, on the import side and there's so much exciting that's happening with aquaculture in particular and just really interesting things around the world.

Alisha: 1:29

So Wolf's itself has gone through, you know, quite a few different iterations since it was founded in 1926. Wolf's was a neighborhood fish market located in Brookline and so that was, you know, really a different world of seafood buying and of you know how people were eating seafood, how people were shopping at local markets. You know it was founded by Sam Wolf in 1926. His great nephew.

Chef James: 2:00

Richie Taylor still works at the company.

Alisha: 2:00

So we have, we have continuity. Richie Richie's in his 70s and comes in every morning at, I think, about 3.30 to buy fish still, I mean, yeah, he's a committed lifer, that's for sure, and a huge authority on seafood and buying. And it's really seen it all for changes in the industry at this point. So in 2016, the company decided to close the retail location just because how people shop had changed, the neighborhood had changed, and decided to get into the wholesale distribution business.

Alisha: 2:34

So, relocated from Brookline down to the Fish Pier, merged with another small company called George's Bank that was doing some wholesale distribution. It's actually grown out of some chef relationships. Max Harvey ran that side of the business and he was a chef who's worked around Boston for a long time. He worked with Jasper White for a long time and yeah and kind of built the company first out of supplying Jasper White and restaurants.

Chef James: 2:59

Which is great. So like chef-centric.

Alisha: 3:02

Yeah.

Chef James: 3:03

Pretty cool.

Alisha: 3:03

Absolutely. I mean honestly, honestly, up and down our whole, our whole masthead of people at every level of the company. There's a lot of them who've cooked before okay, we have a lot of kind of former chefs in all aspects. I mean, even I, I cooked before. Um, that's awesome so okay, yeah, and so I. It brings that culinary sensibility to it. I mean, if you're running a wholesale business, your primary.

Alisha: 3:28

I mean your customer is the chef. So if you understand their perspective, what they want you know and what they're looking for and why something might be interesting or not, that definitely helps that relationship, you know, and it builds that.

Chef James: 3:41

Yeah Well, do you think what we're doing? Well exactly, you know, and it builds that. Yeah Well, do you think what we're doing Well exactly. Do you think that sets you guys, uh Wolf's fish, apart from the competition, or who's out there?

Alisha: 3:52

I think it does I mean you know, you will find other former. You know former chefs throughout the industry, you know people hit a place where they're like this isn't for me anymore, right, maybe they've had their knees replaced already and they need a different kind of job.

Alisha: 4:12

I've seen them at the industry. Everyone who's been in the kitchen knows how that happens, but I think that the concentration and the real culinary focus is different for us. I mean, I think I don't know that other companies would have quite so many people who started off in hospitality and cooks and are passionate cooks at home too.

Alisha: 4:33

So they really like you know we don't just get a product on a spec sheet. We're going to, you know, we're going to do a tasting, we're going to do a cutting, we're going to see what it looks like, we're going to put it in our test kitchen even, and you know, and really put it through its paces too.

Chef James: 4:47

Oh, which is great. It's huge, yeah, yeah.

Alisha: 4:50

No, I mean it's important to be able to tell chefs that. So you know we really come to every product from that side of things you know. So sometimes I think we, you know, we see the opportunities and things maybe another company doesn't see. Because it cooks, we can see why it's an exciting ingredient or why we would want to cook with that. Right you know it makes an impression.

Chef James: 5:12

Well, you know, I think any time that you can connect like that is just huge, you know, and I think it helps with. You know, once you build that trust in the program, it's like the chefs and everybody's. Just it almost makes it seamless to a certain extent, I would imagine.

Alisha: 5:28

It does, and it also, you know, it's allowed us to say so in 2020,. We launched our e-commerce through wolffishcom. We're actually selling the same fish that we sell to chefs package. We decided to super freeze it for convenience and we're selling that to home cooks. And so we, you know, we bring that same sensibility as well to what we want to cook at home, what we find accessible, what we don't find accessible.

Alisha: 5:56

you know, and really help bridge that gap for people, because I think seafood is probably the most challenging category. You know, if you're a passionate home cook and you really want to get your hands on some good ingredients, you can order all your specialty grains. You can get your spices you can make connections, sometimes even with local farmers through a market. But your seafood, you know it's not that easy to get what you want.

Chef James: 6:17

Well, it's so diverse.

Alisha: 6:20

Like, yes, so diverse, and it's unfortunately the market, um. I mean, the market reflects what the american public tends to eat, and that's salmon, shrimp and tuna right, right yeah exactly so. So getting beyond that, depending on where you live too, can be really challenging. Do you have a fish market nearby can? Can you actually get that quality? Can you get more than three species? Maybe four?

Chef James: 6:49

on offer.

Alisha: 6:50

Exactly.

Chef James: 6:52

Well, you know, and that's interesting too because, I have to say, being here in the Berkshires, being Western Mass, and you know it's surprisingly for many, for many years, it was hard to get excellent seafood. You know, I think that we have some large broad liner vendors and you know other companies here that have, you know, that level of reach of good. You know seafood, but, coming from Canyon Ranch, you know, as the chef I was really focused on providing our guests, you know, with the highest quality I could get ahold of. You know, I'm with you guys today because of that. It's not easy to to get. It sounds so silly to you know, I guess, cause I'm coming from the West coast. You know, coming in here I'm like wow, it's. You know it's only three hours or you know what have you away and yeah, but it's. There really was a challenge and I think, being able to find someone, and I know that this is going into Berkshire, but, you know, working with Wes Malzone when he was owning and operating that, that part that you guys currently have under your umbrella. What reached me about that and what grabbed me?

Chef James: 8:07

There's a couple of things. One was Wes started his company and he was so passionate, like the energy rolled off of him. And he came in to Canyon Ranch and we started talking about things and I shared with him my thoughts about trying to find excellent seafood and, boy, if he couldn't, I mean he would just sell you on. Just, he is excellence, right. So one I have to tell you. One morning he came in, came into the kitchen and said, hey, look, you got to check this out. I'm like you know, sure, of course he's all excited. Let's go down to the truck. I've got it down here in the truck, you know.

Chef James: 8:43

So we went down there, jumped into the, to the back of his box truck and he opened up the container and he was so excited about how beautiful these scallops were. He's like look, jim, I just got these. You know, of course it was early in the morning there, so he opened it up, gave me a you know, a piece of the scallop there. So he opened it up, gave me a piece of the scallop. He's like you got to try it right now. And I did and it was just this delicate, beautiful piece of the ocean. And I think, as a chef, when people get what you're looking for and you pull from their energy and they pull from you. Man, it's just, it's so awesome because you know when that comes in and it hits the plate, that energy is just going to continue. So I just had to share that part.

Alisha: 9:32

Oh no, that's fantastic. I mean, a truly great fresh scallop is really one of the things that can consistently blow your socks off. Really, I mean, that's definitely the kind of thing that stays in memory. You know, Wes obviously is still with the company he founded Berkshire because he oh yeah back and forth all the time why is the fish not getting out there? And so he saw, you know, he saw that need and that there's such wonderful restaurants in the berkshires who really would be excited to buy the best that could get their hands on.

Alisha: 10:13

And so he started berkshire to be bringing seafood five days a week from boston and picking it up, and so one of the places he was getting, you know, scallops and other products was Wolf's and we're. Actually he was buying a lot from us and then trucking it out, and so it was a really a natural build on that relationship.

Chef James: 10:34

As Wolf's was growing.

Alisha: 10:36

We had. You know you start any small business and then, of course, at some point, once you get successful, you have capacity issues. You, once you get successful, you have capacity issues. How many trucks do you have? How many people can prepare those orders Do you have? A full team, so that you're really, really getting the best every single time, Going to the front of the line when that new tuna comes in, you can get pretty competitive.

Chef James: 10:57

Oh yeah, I'm sure.

Alisha: 10:58

Because there isn't always an excess of perfect product in the market. So it made sense for Wes and his customers to join Wolf and it made sense for Wolf to expand our capacity beyond the Metro Boston area with our trucks and say, hey, we can just do this together with very few changes. And he was only buying small amounts of product from other places. It wasn't really a huge change to just work exclusively through Wolf's and merge the two teams. And I think it's been very successful.

Chef James: 11:31

Well, I'd have to say, you know, looking at you know I know you said 90 years and we went right into the backstory of the company. But I mean, that's maybe it's pun intended, I guess, but like you've weathered a lot of storms and you're still going strong and leading the way in many ways.

Alisha: 11:51

Absolutely no. I mean, it's a long time for any business to survive. We're coming up to 98 years now for any business, especially in food to go 98 years and still be independently owned. We are not part of a larger corporation with corporate mandate. Part of why we can have the best products is we get to do what we want.

Alisha: 12:12

We're a company of obsessives for quality and there's no mandate. It hasn't sold, like many companies have, to a larger corporate entity that then start, as they do, cutting corners, saying, well, this fabulous thing you're doing isn't that profitable. You know, as they do cutting corners, you know saying, well, this fabulous thing you're doing isn't that profitable, Maybe you should stop. But we don't have that. You know we're able to still keep our vision and be the kind of company we want to be and.

Alisha: 12:34

I think that you know has been a real strength. I mean you need a team committed, you know, to make that happen from from ownership all the way down, and we do that. We've been able to, you know, expand with the addition of Berkshire. We also ship seafood, you know, around the country. You know, there are chefs in other markets in Nashville, in Charleston, south Carolina out in. Arizona even.

Chef James: 12:56

Yeah.

Alisha: 12:56

Especially somewhere like Arizona, like they don't have a pipeline to.

Chef James: 13:00

No, no, and that's Coming in from the water. It's hard. Yeah, a lot of that's coming through lax and stuff. I mean I actually was chefing in arizona as well, so it's very hard yeah there is, I mean there is la in that pipeline.

Alisha: 13:14

If you want east coast specialties, right, um, then it's a little bit harder yeah, the coast certainly hold their specialties separate. I was in california for a long time too, so I know how okay oh cool. The West Coast loves certain fish that the East Coast doesn't care about, and vice versa.

Alisha: 13:29

So you know if you're out West and you want to bring, you know, east Coast oysters or something you're going to, you might struggle a little bit more getting those, those particular varieties. Yeah, we've expanded to you know, to be able to do that when there's demand shipped to other markets. We started our e-commerce for 2020, like I said, you know, during the pandemic, as many did, but we were fortunately already thinking pretty quickly and really were committed to staying the course, because that's a whole other business entirely.

Alisha: 14:07

But, you know, but we're committed to it and feel like it also fills a really interesting niche. You know, I think it's exciting for us to be able to distribute throughout the state Most of the seafood distributors in Boston. Worcester is kind of the end of the world. They don't go past it Right, like you know anything further than that.

Chef James: 14:29

Well, and that you know. That's the thing too. I mean. So, looking at like the commitment to excellence, like quality and sourcing and vetting, how does that process look for you guys? Sharing it with some of our listeners?

Alisha: 14:41

Sure, it's really. I mean, one of the amazing things about seafood and why it's exciting to work in the industry is the incredible diversity. I've never worked in chicken, but I imagine, if you do, it's just chicken.

Alisha: 14:56

There's some varieties, but they're not really in the market, Whereas seafood we're going to have hundreds of different products coming through our warehouse every day, Like not dozens, literal hundreds, and so each one of those represents a different relationship and a different relationship for the buyer and they all come in differently, even through local species. You know even different distributors. You might have offload permits for one kind of fish but not another kind of fish. There's both. Yeah, I, I mean it's highly regulated. So like, for example, we offload, we direct offload, black sea bass in the summer on the cape, and that's a particular relationship that we're licensed for. There might be another kind of fish, like tuna. Those are different licenses. So then we partner with that person and have those strong relationships to work with somebody you know, work with somebody who is exclusively a tuna buyer, and some of that is just about our longevity.

Alisha: 15:52

On the pier I said Richie Taylor, who you know. He started working at his family's fish market after he graduated college in the 70s and just decided to do anything else. He liked it there and stayed, and so he knows everyone. I mean you know, and so does you know, Max Harvey, who came from you know, the one who chefed at George's Bank. He also knows a lot of people. There's a lot that's about relationships in the business Bala, which many people follow.

Alisha: 16:20

he was kind of our head of quality and also really, really in charge of buying the big charges, buying the big fish, the tuna sword, like that's his particular specialty okay, he was some people know him because he's on. He was on instagram, was very active. I think he had like 70 000 followers cut fish he doesn't post as much anymore but because he's just so good at it and so he has relationships particular to those fish. Okay.

Alisha: 16:46

And that's how specialized they can get Becca, who's our new head of procurement? She's a shellfish specialist, so she has particular relationships with oyster farms.

Chef James: 16:56

Okay, it's one of her real strengths.

Alisha: 16:58

And so I mean the buying is so complicated every day. Yeah, Four people who are actively buying every single day, because it is hundreds of species.

Chef James: 17:08

And you're doing it, you're just flipping. There's so much coming in.

Alisha: 17:11

Yeah, and it's so much, and it's so fast.

Chef James: 17:14

Yes.

Alisha: 17:14

Everything has to move fast. Yes, if you take the fish out of water, the timer starts to tick.

Chef James: 17:19

Well, and that's what I loved about it.

Alisha: 17:21

Everything has to move so quickly.

Chef James: 17:23

Yeah, Well, because it just you know, what I noticed was the turnaround is so quick from placing the order with you guys that literally the product you're getting, it's just outstanding, that turnaround time.

Alisha: 17:37

It is amazing. Some of that is part of the risk of the seafood business.

Chef James: 17:41

I mean based on.

Alisha: 17:42

You know when Bala is out buying tuna at 3.30 in the morning, you know, and he's got a guy and his contacts know that we'll only buy. We'll only buy the top grade. It's like A1s, you can get 1s and 2s and there's a whole complicated system of how those big fish get graded.

Chef James: 18:01

There's a grading system.

Alisha: 18:02

We only buy the top one so you those big fish get graded the grading system. You only buy the top one. So you know he's got a guy and they'll put the top ones aside and make those decisions. But at tree 30 he had to guess what kind of tuna the market's gonna like.

Alisha: 18:12

How many chefs are gonna want it you know when it's really good, then he knows well, it's that hot, they're gonna everybody's gonna want it and we'll post about it and sometimes I think we sell it on instagram honestly, like we'll post a line that's so beautiful.

Chef James: 18:23

Yeah. The chefs are literally on their phone right now trying to get a piece of it, and that's hard too.

Alisha: 18:30

A lot of it is speculation that way, like we have to guess a little bit.

Chef James: 18:34

Okay, well, yeah, and that just and again, looking at that window of time, is it really is short, I mean, and not you know, and on top of this, looking at like traceability and sustainability and all of that, you know how, is the vision for you guys.

Alisha: 18:52

You know, withholding that up, I mean everything that we. The points of traceability, honestly they it's always visible. Not everyone's invested in being accountable for that. I mean we know where a fish comes from, it has to have paperwork.

Alisha: 19:06

It says where it comes from. I think there are people in the business at various stages, particularly the distributor level, unfortunately. But honestly, down to the restaurant, they don't necessarily give the right answer, even if it's in front of them, because it's not what they want, they might say something is a different. You know, it happens with a different species, or like tuna point the chef orders a number one and someone says yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a number one, not a number one Like it's a number two.

Alisha: 19:33

So there's, you know, there's a lot of accountability in the system and it really comes down to the integrity. It's not mysterious when people say you can't know. That's not true.

Chef James: 19:42

Yeah, yeah, and you guys have that. You have that integrity, and obviously that's why you've been around for 98 years. So, wow, that's amazing.

Alisha: 19:52

Yeah, we're proud of how we source. We don't feel the need to adapt to anything because we're already sourcing products that we feel really good about. So no incentive at all to tell something else, and that's honestly a big part of once you've established yourself as that kind of company. That's why people come back right you know, as a chef, if you order, you know you order number one soon and you keep getting number two.

Alisha: 20:16

You're gonna stop calling right, right because that's not what you asked for yeah, yeah you know, and if you always get exactly what you asked for, or you know like you're looking for those perfect scallops and you get them and they're perfect every time, then you're going to keep coming back and that kind of trust is what so much of what the business is built on.

Chef James: 20:37

Well, and it's so fast yeah, yeah.

Chef James: 20:40

No, it is huge and it is hard and that's extra work, you know, involved with that, you know, for educating the, the chef or the buyer.

Chef James: 20:48

But you know I know, like I have to say too, it was great because being a part of you know Canyon Ranch and our philosophy and again, and I carry, I carry that philosophy as a chef period, the big piece to what we were building there. You know being a part of the Monterey Bay Seafood Watch and then also, you know following the global or the GSA or Global Seafood Alliance with our BAP scoring system. You know being able to have somebody with integrity, like you guys. You know it's my job to be the visionary and kind of like the vetter myself. It's my job to kind of police that and make sure that what's coming in is a part of my vision, a part of the. You know the company's vision and you guys have always provided that if there were things that came up or maybe suggestions or their grading had changed and you know gone from best choice and slipped, and to be able to look at alternatives and work with you guys through that commitment on our side as a chef has always been outstanding.

Alisha: 22:02

Thank you. I mean that's that's really great to hear and that's definitely what. What we want to do to really help especially to the issue of sustainability and how we look at that and honestly, it can mean different things to different people. There are so many aspects of how something is produced that you know we try to work with the customer to help fulfill their vision. You know, for some people that might be sourcing only local products and that's what's important to them and they want to, you know, really pursue just local products because it's sustaining the local market. They feel strongly about those species. For some, it's about, you know, it's about certification or some of the exciting products that are happening in aquaculture, which is a lot. I mean there's incredible innovation in that sector and people really I mean really pushing the envelope on how we can sustainably raise food.

Chef James: 22:56

And that's.

Alisha: 22:56

I mean, honestly, that's a part of the business that I get excited about, because wild food is a finite resource. I mean it's great, but there's not going to be more of it, honestly, like it's just even now, there, now, there. You know there's a scarcity in the market for many products that there wasn't years ago and it's only going to get more complicated with climate change. There's already species that are on the move what was the?

Alisha: 23:19

local fish years ago. It's not necessarily local. It might be on its way to canada. Now it's like it's just moving further away and even further South they're getting spotted and caught off the coast of Massachusetts now. And we just never would have seen them before you know, and that's evolving and it's only going to keep evolving. You know the fish the fish don't know where they're supposed to be. They're going to say like well, it's so interesting. Getting warmer, they're going to keep moving to colder water.

Chef James: 23:46

Well, and that's a thing like I, you know, there were moments where you know you'd get a heads up like, hey, you know, we, we can get ahold of Mahi because they're starting to head up this way. Um wasn't all the time, but it was like, wow, you can, you know, just to know that's happening. You're like, of course I'll take it. It's just interesting how that. You know how that shifts.

Alisha: 24:06

Yeah, I mean it's really shifting a lot and it's shifting all the time. The Gulf of Maine, which stretches well, it has Maine in the name. It's not just Maine, it's really up from kind of Maritimes Canada down through Cape Cod and that is the fastest warming body of water, one of the fastest warming body of water on Earth. So we're gonna see a lot of changes locally. You know we're definitely already seeing them.

Chef James: 24:31

Wow.

Alisha: 24:31

When I was a kid, there was a lot more lobster fishing from Massachusetts, Rhode Island. Like we're not getting lobster from Rhode Island anymore, You're not, Like it's all moved north. Yeah, and it's, you know. So I think we're both in the industry and, as you know, and as really conscious eaters and as chefs, we're going to have to really pay attention and adapt and some of it might be exciting like mahi.

Alisha: 24:54

Some of it might be a species we wanted that just isn't around anymore, and there might be disappointment. I mean, I think it's really going to be. It'll be a mixed bag, but we're going to have to keep adapting our ideas of what a local product is, even, and what we want to champion and help educate diners about. Something like lobster and scallop prices that have gone up dramatically, in part as management and part is climate change and availability. It's not necessarily coming back.

Chef James: 25:23

Yeah, exactly, I mean do you have anything like on the website where it would be like chef or consumer education sections.

Alisha: 25:33

For consumers particularly, and for some of our like what we consider our portfolio product wholesale, which are really products we're really excited about and have really particular sustainability story. Those all have dedicated sections on our website okay, let's talk about, you know, like from the wholesale side, all our portfolio products.

Alisha: 25:51

It'll talk about why this product, you know what kind of sustainability story is behind it, why we feel that you know this version of this product like is a particular strength is a great choice and like why we're excited about that and on the our e-commerce side, the wolffishcom site, than that there's product details yeah, which is great to know um, yeah, it doesn't always go too deeply into something just because you know it's always hard to gauge how much explanation people really want.

Alisha: 26:20

Sure, it is changing and so we have, I mean, as far as a sustainability initiative that I'm really excited about. I actually got so excited about this. I joined the board of GreenCraborg. It's GreenCrab. This is a it's a climate change story. It's a sustainability story. It's an invasive species story.

Chef James: 26:39

I mean not cool, but you know what I mean Something to help.

Alisha: 26:41

Yeah, it's cool that we're going to try to. I mean, we've had them. We've been offering green crabs for two years now and was the only distributor to step up and do that. I mean, honestly, no one's getting rich off green crabs. This is the sustainability initiative. You know we, you know the fisherman gets some, we get some, but it's not. You know, it's not like it's a giant money maker, which explains why other distributors didn't want to lean on it. You'd have to educate people. Some people said no one's ever going to eat those. But honestly, there's absolutely no reason why. I mean, green crabs are in North America. They're an invasive species. They're from Europe originally. They came probably in the ballast of ships in the 19th century and so they've been here. But our big control against their populations was really cold winters wow you know you need a hard, hard freeze for some days.

Alisha: 27:35

Wow, we don't really have that. I mean, I remember even when I was a kid, after this mild winter, thinking like gosh ice skating outside was a childhood pastime. That was one of those like. Your mother's wish was like go skate outside, go to the pond, get out there, and it was always frozen all winter. So that was enough. Nothing freezes like that anymore. So, and that's I grew up actually in the marshy areas on the North Shore where we're buying our green crabs from.

Alisha: 28:05

So, nothing is killing them. The populations have exploded and one green crab can eat 40 juvenile clams in a day. So when you look at their voracious predators, nothing is you know and they have very little competition out there so they're eating clams, mussels, oysters. I mean there are huge problems constantly around oyster farms, you know, trying to get into the cages, trying to eat the young oysters you know, so all the shellfish that is really native here and that we want to eat is something being threatened by green crabs.

Alisha: 28:40

They compete with native crabs and lobster. They eat eelgrass with their little claws, which is eelgrass' critical habitat the nursery. Other crustaceans need it and they're mowing it down. Wow so anything that we can do to get them out of the water. And they are edible. They are small but they make amazing stock. Okay, we've had seen chefs and really think of them as an ingredient more than as a protein source.

Alisha: 29:06

Okay, yeah, you can't get the the mean out, but it's a lot of work. Yeah, you know we don't, we know that's not going to work in most people's kitchen, um, but they have so much flavor there's no reason for us not to take them out. And you know you're really getting great utilization if you make a bisque like a, like a boyabaisse, is that yeah? Absolutely okay. Yeah, they'll make great stock for that. I've even used it with like making a mushroom risotto with a crab stock oh, very cool a wonderful way to get the flavor.

Alisha: 29:37

Yeah, that was delicious. Um, we see chefs infuse them into the butter. They're roasting the crabs, infusing them into butter straining that off and then using that on shellfish very nice so I think they're really at the very beginning stages of innovation, and some chefs have tried and fusing them into butter, straining that off and then using that on shellfish, Very nice.

Alisha: 29:53

So I think they're really at the very beginning stages of innovation and some chefs have tried fermenting them, If you have a place where you can ferment and make your own fish sauce. That's possible. Oh, that's really cool. I think there's a lot of uses.

Chef James: 30:00

Yeah.

Alisha: 30:01

I think we haven't even scratched the surface. I think of all the fun things you can do, but we have chefs all over now who are using this, and even actually I've just been doing some work with Smith College is going to put them on a lunch menu in a couple of weeks for Earth Day. So even in a big setting you can make a difference.

Alisha: 30:18

So I'm yeah, I'm really excited about that and I think that's one of our our great sustainability stories. And then you know that we feel really good about like I. Then you know that we feel really good about, like I said, you know it's a small piece of business, but we've been able to, you know, really help provide extra income for the clam. You know, all the clam are there. That's green crabs. Anyone who's shellfish is, because it's literally eating their business, so he's more than happy to trap the crabs for us.

Chef James: 30:44

Wow, well, and that's a great story, you know we're selling them because you unlike most things, you better put a trap down.

Alisha: 30:52

It's full, there's so many.

Chef James: 30:54

Oh really.

Alisha: 31:01

Unbelievable. It's not hard to catch. You can go catch them yourself.

Chef James: 31:03

You've probably seen one on the beach if you've been tide pooling right anywhere out there, everywhere, right, well, and that's a great story to, like you know, educate the front of the house team with and guests coming in, and I, you know they, when they hear that, or you know, have a part of even the culinary team and letting them kind of work on things and you're working with them on being creative with it. I think that's just great All of it.

Alisha: 31:26

Yeah, I think you know, with the new products, or you know, I mean, chefs in Europe have been throwing them in their stocks forever. You know, it's not like we're not the first people to eat them. We just haven't eaten them in this country.

Chef James: 31:42

traditionally, you know, chefs are going to really help lead that innovation. Well and that is huge, in the kitchen it's fun to get something.

Alisha: 31:49

To get something both with a great mission to it and that's also a bit of a new toy. You might never have worked with it before, is you know? It's fun and I think that that innovation has really helped inspire people to eat them and you know, hopefully inspire the company that will make the fish sauce and some other things that will really help get a big quantity out. But yeah that's. We're just kind of going into our next season now for them.

Chef James: 32:16

Right.

Alisha: 32:17

It's been. That's been an exciting project for us. And you know we have. We have many other products. Global story is something we truly know we're doing.

Chef James: 32:27

Yep.

Alisha: 32:28

We were excited to be part of that. It's been an issue that you have these sustainable opportunities and the scientists work on them and many papers come out and articles come out and do interesting things. You're asked okay great, I want to use them. How do I get them? The answer is well, nowhere. Nobody sells them. Go grab them. That's not practical. Which shows us the time to go catch their own crab yeah exactly yeah. Good grief? No, no, and you know, typically they just weren't on anybody's radar for getting them, so we're really happy to provide that link to the system.

Chef James: 33:05

Yeah Well, and you know, like I've used, for example, like dogfish you know I've done that, you know, and like for fish and chips or something you know and just kind of told that story of just you know, trying to use a different type of fish for this dish. And you know this, it's kind of a. It's one of those things where fishermen kind of find them a bit of a challenge to work around. They kind of get in the way and, you know, at some points they thought they were becoming a little bit invasive. But you know, I think, taking these opportunities to again get them on the menu and discuss it with your teams, like how, like how can you, how can we use this and brainstorm it, and then it becomes a big win for everybody and it's great.

Alisha: 33:51

Yeah, absolutely, and there are lots of species underutilized and sometimes not even that challenging, honestly, in the kitchen I mean if you know cod and haddock working with hake and pollock. It's not that hard.

Chef James: 34:04

No.

Alisha: 34:05

They're close cousins, right, they handle it a little bit differently, but it's not that hard. No, they're close cousins, right to handle it a little bit differently, but it's not that hard.

Alisha: 34:12

yeah, you know, and making sure that diners know like it might be harder to sell if people don't know hake right they never heard of it and they don't realize that it's swimming right next to the other fish that they like and it's a very close cousin and you know, there's nothing, nothing scary about trying something new, especially when it's it's really honestly on the plate, going to be very familiar, something that has maybe really great culinary pedigree in other places. I mean lots of European chefs love cake. They order it specifically.

Chef James: 34:41

Oh, that's great they have monkfish.

Alisha: 34:43

I mean I feel like anyone who's hooked onto a really traditional French chef or ever cooked in France, loves monkfish. And we have tons of it and it goes underappreciated. I mean, it's one of my favorite fish and has so much versatility.

Chef James: 34:57

Right.

Alisha: 34:57

So many like interesting culinary properties, like it's not falling apart, you can throw it in a braise. You can really do so much with it. It stands up to all of that. Right, but with it, yeah it stands up to all of that, right, but we just we don't eat nearly as much of it as we could, right? Yeah, you know people don't want to branch out from tuna, but yeah, out there I.

Chef James: 35:17

I think that sometimes, though, as a country, we've been kind of funneled in some ways and been made kind of comfortable by what all of you provide like you know, it's like okay, shrimp salmon, and made kind of comfortable by what all of you provide Like you know, it's like okay shrimp salmon and we kind of get caught up in that. I mean, it's this expectation of, like you know, this is my comfort zone or even going into like produce and getting the perfect zucchini or whatever, and you know, looking at these products and going, well, how, how can I try something different? You know, other countries have been eating dogfish for fish and chips for generations, but things are a little bit different and the texture of the flavor profile might be a little bit different, but it's so adaptable, especially when you have a talented chef that does justice and does it right, you know, and it hits all of that.

Alisha: 36:09

No, absolutely.

Chef James: 36:10

And there's.

Alisha: 36:11

You know, part of what's exciting about seafood is that diversity I mean a little bit different is a bonus for lots of people. You know money's the same thing every single day. You know you could eat a different dish every single day, all year.

Chef James: 36:24

Right.

Alisha: 36:25

Really. I mean, if you know we have, we literally have that many coming into our warehouse of all different descriptions throughout seafood. And so it can be in the market a bit of a, you know, bit of a closed loop. Right Buyers say, well, people don't want this, so they don't buy it. There are no options. No one wants anything but salmon, so all they buy is salmon for the grocery store. And then people go in and the only one fish that looks good is salmon, and then they buy salmon.

Chef James: 36:52

Right.

Alisha: 36:52

So not that there's anything wrong with salmon, but there are a lot more fish, you know, in sample and try, so it does become a bit of a loop and I think it takes a little more courage from buyers and a little more willing willingness to educate right we do. You know, we bring in um even smaller quantities that are harder to manage, or by catch, like we'll work directly with some fishermen or have some contacts and they'll be like hey, we happen to get a little bit of it.

Chef James: 37:21

You know which is huge, because that's by catch discussion on the menu Really.

Alisha: 37:26

Yeah, and there's so much opportunity there and it takes a willingness and then the salespeople have to. You know, no one calls up asking for that. Yeah, and you have to go and talk to them about it, exactly.

Chef James: 37:36

Well, looking at two, it's like you're getting the bycatch that are. You know it may come in in small amounts. Well, if I'm knowing that, then maybe you are putting it in a seafood cioppino or a seafood paella, where it's not like you're putting four ounces, five ounces or six ounces. You're doing a multitude of different pieces and it's coming together and you can use that bycatch. Once that you know, once you're told about it and kind of those those ways where it kind of shares a place on the dish. You know, like you said before, yeah, absolutely.

Chef James: 38:11

And like.

Alisha: 38:12

Having a flexible attitude to seafood is really, really where it gets the best. Honestly, as a chef, you know it allows you to take advantage of the happy accidents when something really interesting comes in. Is it going to be here next? Week no way to know.

Alisha: 38:30

You have to be flexible and jump on it when it's here, some things are more consistent, but some aren't. There are lots of species that are really caught and aren't even intentionally targeted, but they're caught while fishing for something else. Even Atlantic halibut is part of that's why, at certain times of the year, there's almost none of it to be had.

Alisha: 39:05

You know, the price goes that high in the winter, and part of it is because it's not even a targeted fishery. It might be something like you know we're just getting one or two. You know that the boat got one Right.

Chef James: 39:17

And that's it.

Alisha: 39:18

Right. And so if there aren't distributors, you know, and fish buyers, like wolves, who are willing to look at doing something different, or take 50 pounds of something which crosses a very small amount of something, right.

Chef James: 39:33

Oh yeah.

Alisha: 39:34

Then there's no market for it. Then what happens Then? You've just wasted something that could have been good food. You've unnecessarily taken fish out of the ecosystem, which always seems sad to me. You know, like you know that was. You know it's a waste of everyone's efforts too. It's a waste of the fishermen's time if they catch things they can't sell right, exactly it takes the sustainability of everybody's piece of the chain down right.

Alisha: 39:59

Well, you know, and then another thing beyond that that we try to do is really fill the whole fish is another key piece of sustainability. I mean, we sell, we sell the collars we sell. Most of that ends up. You know, even in boston a lot of it ends up in in the trash yeah, because it takes some fine butchery to make it nice, but we'll sell. If we bring in a tuna, we'll sell the tuna collar.

Chef James: 40:24

Yeah.

Alisha: 40:26

You know we sell sword chops from the swordfish which is kind of like the collar. It's like a tomahawk steak actually once you butcher it properly and clean it up and it's a phenomenal piece of fish. But without that extra effort and without that kind of hands-on commitment to that, it would go to the trash and in that nose to tail eating it's still at the forefront for a lot of it. You know it isn't happening at all, so there's nothing more sustainable than using the whole product.

Chef James: 40:57

Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's great.

Alisha: 40:59

And on that side and people love them once they try them. We absolutely love them yeah fantastic oh, that's awesome making ribs or chicken wings or something, depending on the size of the fish, and sometimes they taste totally just for that different cut um. But you know, that's another thing that we're doing. That's kind of an everyday sustainability push, that um, that not everyone is going the extra mile, because it does.

Chef James: 41:27

It does require, you know, it requires time to put something properly right and again educating you know yeah right, wow, and I, speaking of educating, I thought I had seen too, you guys had done like a caviar tasting.

Alisha: 41:46

We did. We did a caviar tasting back in the fall, which was really. I mean, it was fun oh yeah, it was a great opportunity to work with chefs and really, you know we went through. I think we tasted 12 different varieties in a row. And when do you get to taste 12 caviar?

Chef James: 42:05

against each other. Not very often, yeah.

Alisha: 42:08

Yeah, really not. And of course it's hard to form a real opinion, like how do you pick a favorite when you taste one variety and they taste the second one three months later?

Chef James: 42:17

Yeah, exactly.

Alisha: 42:18

It's not the same experience. Go through what some of the different species resulted in and what you're seeing on the labels, because they can be pretty confusing. Honestly, it's like what kind of fish is it? Things get called by different names.

Chef James: 42:31

Oh yeah.

Alisha: 42:32

For our consumption, most things, even if those varietals are hybrids, because if there's one like the parentage for that sturgeon would be an endangered species. You can't bring the caviar, that's only that one variety in it has to be hybridized so we can show that it's not permitted otherwise for import. Even so, things like that get really confusing. Sure, people are confused about like is it endangered, Is it not? What aspects of that?

Chef James: 43:01

Yeah.

Alisha: 43:03

I mean the caviar that we're buying in the US, the smaller kind of subspecies that are domestic. Everything else is farmed. Right and it's farmed around the world, and that's a great thing, because wild populations are critically endangered. That's why there's an incredible amount of international regulation.

Chef James: 43:17

Yeah, right Wow.

Alisha: 43:20

That was fun to do that and I hope we'll do. I think we'll probably do caviar again and I think you know I'd love to see some other kinds of fun classes.

Chef James: 43:28

That's what I was curious about. If you provided, yeah.

Alisha: 43:32

Yeah, I mean we haven't done them for the public. These have been for chefs so far, although we're partnering with a restaurant in Cambridge, chef Tracy Chang is doing a sushi making class with us and talking through like how to cut and how to torch, and so we're doing that in the restaurant.

Chef James: 43:48

Oh, that's great.

Alisha: 43:49

You know, yeah, I think that's going to be really fun and really hands-on or a little bit lazy. If you get intimidated by hands-on, you know there'll be someone there from the restaurant to help you, but you know There'll be someone there from the restaurant to help you, but get some of those fun little tips and tricks that you get on a restaurant menu and it's so delightful.

Alisha: 44:08

You wonder how in the world did they do that? Because I look at that piece of fish and I can't make it happen Right. Helping bridge that gap, yeah, which is that we're looking forward to. Yeah, do internal classes too, just to make sure that we know how to describe things Like recently we did a five species oyster casing to really taste.

Alisha: 44:30

Every kind of oyster from the US and down the East coast is pretty much the same species. So once you know that, you can really appreciate the contribution of Marowar. And then on the West coast you have, you know, three different species that are coming in that are really totally different from washington or from california where they're cultivated, and then the, the wild belongs, that are actually not native. They came from france years and years ago probably. And then really something else entirely if you realize how many different ways an oyster can taste.

Chef James: 45:05

Well, that was exciting. You know I don't want to put in along the lines of like wine tasting, but I mean, but you do get like melon and briny and buttery and I mean you're getting, you know, some markers in there where you know some of the meat inside is bigger than some other varieties and you know, so it's oysters are unbelievably educating Cucumber, right, I mean.

Alisha: 45:30

Oh, absolutely. And so I mean it is very similar to wine taste thing because, especially when you realize that you know that it is the same species that's native and the same species that's being cultivated from, you know, from down as far as Florida, all the way up through, you know, canada, prince Edward Island, is all the same species, kind of like you might have a Cabernet grape but depending on how you treat it and where it is, it can taste so different.

Alisha: 45:59

It really is very much the same thing, which is exciting and how many factors go into changing that flavor and you know where it is in the water, how it's cultivated, you know, is it on the bottom, is it in cages, is it tumbling with the tides, like there's so many different pieces that it is. Yeah, it's another endlessly fascinating thing and we, like I said, becca, our shell, shellfish fire, has a she's a real um especially just finished an oyster sommelier program. There's now an oyster master skill that is doing kind of a some style of training for so great she's moving through that first cohort. Okay, I think you know you really can paste in profiles in a different way and like, right, be able to pick up and, you know, as a real specialist, be able to look at an oyster and tell how it was raised. I can't do that, but she can. That's so cool.

Chef James: 46:49

Well, I mean again, it's, it is. I guess it is like you know the wine tasting and building that palette of understanding the region and the waters and you know, were the waters colder this season? Did that play a part? What is? What is it that plays a part in that? You know, you know kind of like the terroir of for wine you're. It's kind of like, okay, what you know, how are the oceans, you know, and the seafloor, how is that all playing a part into it and into the species itself, you know.

Alisha: 47:19

So no, it really to the no, it really is endless.

Chef James: 47:23

Wow, yep, no, and I love them too. I just I love getting a hold of any of those that come in. So, all right, had a great conversation, so much information to take away.

Alisha: 47:34

Thanks, I enjoyed it. Yeah, no this is all day long.

Chef James: 47:38

I know, I know, I you know again it's funny, even talking to Monterey Bay Aquarium, sean and I were talking about that that seafood is like the most diversified protein out there.

Alisha: 47:50

Really is amazing, yes, how much diversity you can embrace there.

Chef James: 47:55

Thank you for your time, Alisha, and everything you guys do at Wulf's Fish. It's just, it's just excellent, and you know, if you can pass that forward and thank everyone for me, you know yeah, no, absolutely.

Alisha: 48:10

Have you been out to visit us? No, I have not well, when you have some time, you know yeah see where the magic happens. That'd be great, yeah absolutely no.

Chef James: 48:20

I would love to get out there sometime. Just got to get it in the books. You know, do you want to share with the listeners? You know where they can. You know like e-commerce and how they can be a part of this with you guys and find you.

Alisha: 48:32

Yeah, absolutely, you can go to wulf'sfishcom and we are, you know, still hand cutting that super, freezing it in-house. So it makes it a little bit easier to stock up. We really invested in doing that and we ship all over the country.

Chef James: 48:48

Wider variety oh, very cool.

Alisha: 48:50

Yep and interesting things to try on our site. I think on average we have at least usually at least 50 different kinds of pieces for sale on the website, versus that. You know the counter that might only have the three or four for you. So it's a fun way to do experiment, to try, you know, that exciting fish that you got at a sushi restaurant and it's never, ever seen at retail. There's a good chance that we have it.

Chef James: 49:14

Oh, that's, that's really cool. And what was that website again, Wulf's fish com. There we go. Thank you, awesome.

Alisha: 49:24

And for for chefs or anyone who really wants to take a deep dive. We have a wholesale website which is a Wulf's Fish wholesale and that, you know, really gets into a little bit more from a professional standpoint and more of the nitty gritty on some of the products. So that's kind of. We keep the two different resources.

Chef James: 49:39

Awesome. Okay, well, Alisha, thank you so much for your time and just your wisdom. We went through so much amazing knowledge and information. Again, that's the reason why Wulf's Fish is in business and has been in business since 1926, hitting that 98-year marker of excellence. So thank you all so much. Thank you, yeah, all right, everyone. That is a wrap. You can check us out if you like that. Subscribe Also the Instagram Chef Massey. Let's keep it simple, chef Masseycom, have a good one. Bye for now.