Lysha's journey to alcohol started with societal norms around alcohol consumption until it didn't anymore.

Think IKEA furniture. Not exactly what comes to mind when you think about getting sober. But guess what? They both involve putting things together, one step at a time. Each day in sobriety, like each piece in that flat-pack box, builds you up. It makes you stronger. And the way you approach that furniture? Maybe, just maybe, that's how you approach life's challenges too.

This podcast is here to guide you through that assembly process, and know which approach works for you or not, in a way that's both informative and entertaining. Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober!

In this episode, we delve into Lysha Holmes's powerful transformation from a life entwined with alcohol to one of clarity and purpose. As a successful recruitment business owner and a passionate sober advocate, she opens up about her battle with the bottle, peeling back the layers on the often-overlooked societal pressures that nudge us towards the drink. She bravely shares the hurdles she faced in seeking support and the monumental shift that sobriety has brought into her world.

You will surely be inspired as Lysha reveals the huge improvements in her health, the newfound sharpness of her mental faculties, and the deepened bonds with her children—all fruits of her alcohol-free lifestyle. We also discussed the essence of self-awareness, the unexpected joys of sober intimacy, and the art of cultivating friendships that truly nurture.

Lysha's narrative is not just her own—it's a beacon for anyone questioning the role alcohol plays in their life. Prepare to be inspired, to reflect, and perhaps to embark on your own journey towards a more intentional and fulfilling existence.

This is how Lysha built the sober life she wants, paving the path to your own journey, one sober step at a time.

Connect with Lysha beyond the show! Follow her journey on social media for more insights and inspiration:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:00) - Hey there, sober superstars. Welcome to Flat Packed Sober, your catalog of tips, tricks and tactics to design your alcohol-free life. I'm joined today by a very exciting guest. She is a recruitment business owner, podcast host and sober warrior. I'm excited about this. So she spent a better part of 25 years in recruitment, and you probably don't need to add too much imagination to that to figure out that involved a lot of alcohol. But in 2017, she got sober, and since then she's been an advocate for all of the good stuff. And she even coaches people. She coaches all of the good people. So Lysha, welcome to the podcast. So please, you could join me today.

Lysha Holmes (00:00:45) - Thank you so much for an amazing introduction. I'm great to be here. And for anyone who is interested in a sober journey, I'm always happy to share my personal journey and those of others that I've advocated and supported. Perfect.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:56) - Well, look, that's all of the stuff we're going to get into.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:58) - But first, I've got to ask you about Flatpack furniture. So I'm guessing you know Ikea, right?

Lysha Holmes (00:01:05) - I do.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:05) - Okay, so if I gave you one of IKEA's finest Flatpack products, how would you go about assembling it?

Lysha Holmes (00:01:12) - I would call my handyman. How much will it cost me? And he'll come and do it for me. Joking aside, I think in all my 49.5 years, I think I've put together one thing from Ikea and it took me about two hours and it was a little footstool. So to answer your question, I would get someone else to do it for me.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:27) - I love outsourcing. If you really had to do it, how would you approach it? What would you do? Would you get stuck in? Would you look at the instructions laid out? Call a friend?

Lysha Holmes (00:01:37) - I get it now. Sorry, I thought I was being very foolish, but I was just being untruthful in my answer. No, that's fine, I.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:42) - Like I say, I love outsourcing.

Lysha Holmes (00:01:44) - I would, I'm very aware of myself. I'm an active learner, so I would take everything out of the box. I would count everything, and then I would be quite logical and think, right, I know I need to have eight screws, I've got eight screws. Then I think, oh, let's just get on with it. And I would get on with it. I would jump in two feet, which is possibly why what I told you was the truth. It took me two hours to put together a footstool. Had I actually gone? Let me just read the instructions all the way through. I bet it would have taken me at least 20 minutes to just finish it, but instead I decided to get active. I think I had to undo screws at one point, put it back together again. So now I'm dreadful at following instructions.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:18) - I think you've kind of basically figured out why I was asking you this question in the first place. And we like to start off with the guests to get to know them a little bit, to get to know how they approach things.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:29) - So I would say you're probably on the dynamo end of things. That's the sober style that we talk about with getting stuck in doing it and then occasionally having to undo it. But that's cool. And I like to start with that because I like the listeners to know where you're coming from, because some of the stuff that you're going to say is going to represent that Dynamo style of actually just getting stuck in. And that's great if people are like that. But some of the people who aren't like that may be some of the people who think a little bit more and read the instructions and reflect on it. Actually, what you're saying could be really, really beneficial for them. So we like to get to grips with the styles so that you can use the ones that really suit you, but challenge yourself with the ones that don't. So tell us about alcohol.

Lysha Holmes (00:03:10) - Well, I mean, I guess we need to turn the clock back to around 1989, which is a 15 year old, I think my parents didn't really drink that.

Lysha Holmes (00:03:19) - They had the cabinet with, you know, the 20 year old adventuring that came out over Christmas, possibly a bit of whiskey that my dad might sneak on a Friday night. Basically, I grew up in a pretty sober house. I'm from an Orthodox Jewish family, so it just isn't part of the culture, really. So as soon as I hit those teenage years where you're starting to rebel and get out and about a little bit more alcohol, I guess this experimentation, you know, drugs wasn't really a thing back in the late 80s where I grew up. But certainly alcohol was. So as soon as you started to recognize that, oh, I can have a little bit of a drink on a Saturday night, it was easy, cheap alcohol that you could just get through from your friends. But it was very recreational. It was just, you know, school dos, maybe the odd party 15, 16 year old and then, you know, all through college didn't really do anything other than that.

Lysha Holmes (00:04:05) - It would just be the odd thing. So it was quite, I would say, a relatively healthy experimentation stage of my life. It wasn't I didn't go hell for leather, and it pretty much stayed like that really, until I join the recruitment industry, which, you know, and I think I've got to be really careful because I don't want anyone to start thinking that, you know, we live by this Wolf of Wall Street image that unfortunately seems to follow us around, because I do think that the industry is desperately trying to change. But the fact is, as many industries are, we are closely wedded to alcohol. And the reason we're closely associated to alcohol is that it's team based celebration. It's getting to know your teammates on a Friday night out. It's commiseration, it's reward. It's always been associated with alcohol. So when I was 23, 24 joining the recruitment industry, the very first day, we went to the pub, straight to the pub, and then it slowly but surely started to become a Thursday night drink, as well as a Friday night drink.

Lysha Holmes (00:04:58) - And then. You might see your friends on a Saturday night, so before you know it, you're not just drinking one night. It's binge drinking 2 or 3, even possibly four nights in the week. And that's kind of how it stayed for me, which even now you just think that you're forming a habit and it's a pretty bad habit to be forming. Then, you know, I met my second husband, married, had children, and actually, I don't think there's a parent on earth that, you know, you can't do the midnight shift, you can't do the 6 a.m. starts if you're having a lot of drinks. So actually, for a few years, I paused the level of alcohol that was consuming. I still would have. I didn't when I was breastfeeding at all. I did have a good break, but you know, as soon as I'd stopped breastfeeding, I'd be straight back on, you know, on a night out. So again, it was a relatively healthy ish, socially acceptable association with alcohol.

Lysha Holmes (00:05:43) - And then for me personally, which is where the story shifts slightly about 2000. My husband at the time, we're no longer married, but he started to brew beer at home as a Michael Brewer, and actually it took off. He actually started to win awards. He started to start locally. He won national awards. And what became, you know, him having, you know, the odd beer in the house every night. He was having a beer. He was trying his own words. And so even though I never drank beer, I would by association feel that I was missing out. So I'd get a glass of wine, might be a gin or something. And over a period of about two years, what had been this habitual Thursday? Friday night was literally every night. And so what would happen then is on a Friday night at the end of the, you know, work week, psychologically, let's have a 5:00 drink. It wasn't even cutting it. So I would there were some nights where I was maybe drinking a bottle of gin over the course of a night.

Lysha Holmes (00:06:35) - So we then, for about a two year period, reached this climax of drinking where it was, I can't think of a day that we weren't having at least one drink, and I got the height of it, got to 2016, you know, two children. We've got two businesses between us. We both looked bloated, we were both grumpy. We were both really. We looked on unwell. But you never would have said we were alcoholics. And then we did it. We went out for our anniversary. And I have never in all my life thrown up from alcohol because I've always known when to stop. And I spent about four hours. I won't be crude, but basically hogging the toilet. What on earth are you doing? I was at the time I was 42, 43 thinking what you're doing. And I then literally after that night could not physically stomach alcohol. The thought of it, the smell of it for a good couple of months, I literally I made myself that ill. I thought I was gonna have to go to hospital.

Lysha Holmes (00:07:24) - I was that poorly. And then over the period of about eight months, I recognized that. I call that my moderation period. So this is the back end of 2016, where what you would say now is that it was peer pressure. I didn't actually want me out of the drinks. It was if we were only if we went out socially, I'd get the glass of champagne or the, you know, the glass of prosecco, and I would literally nurse it all at that one glass, whereas the old Lucia, that would have been gone in two minutes. So it was only when a very good friend had gone out in June of 2017, by which point, you know, I'd been moderating for the best part of a year, and in that time I could probably count on one hand, maybe two hands, how many drinks I'd had in that time. And she just said, you don't want that deal. And I just said, I really don't. And I said, right, that's it.

Lysha Holmes (00:08:05) - I'm calling myself sober. I'm not drinking ever again. So my sober date is the 10th of June 2017. I've never had alcohol since then. My relationship with alcohol was, I think, will resonate with a lot of your listeners, because I was in denial for most of it, that I actually had a problem, and that it's a socially recognized problem, that we just get used to associating all our life events with alcohol. And it's only when you're on the other side of it, which I'm sure we'll come on to talk about, which I'd like to talk about this kind of whole grabbing your glass of wine and having a photo celebrating things. It's like, let's just take the alcohol out of the picture and be in the moment to celebrate. So I'm very proud of my sober journey, and I do talk about it very publicly because it's probably take out the microbrewery. But actually the period of time that I was drinking, the way I was drinking it, this wasn't secret drinking. This wasn't, you know, downing bottles of gin in the morning.

Lysha Holmes (00:08:57) - This was just normal in the evening, cracking open a bottle of wine. It's a normal association, but actually, it's only when you get to the other side of sobriety you realize that actually, it's a really, I think, potentially very unhealthy way to live your life. And unfulfilling, actually.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:09:11) - You're absolutely right. And I think there's so much power in your story because it's not that kind of lost the job, lost the house, lost the kids, lost. You know, it is what most people would just consider to be normal drinking. But once you get on the other side of it, you can see it for what it really is. And, you know, you you talked about looking bloated and feeling terrible. And it is, you know, always reminds me of that line from Alan Carr. You know, the,, not not the comedian.

Lysha Holmes (00:09:39) - No, no, the.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:09:40) - Addiction expert, you know, the lethargy and ill health that most people mistake for normal life. Does that kind of resonate with where you were?

Lysha Holmes (00:09:48) - Very much.

Lysha Holmes (00:09:48) - Then I'm ready for you. First of all, I'm an ex smoker and have been since February 28th, 2001. It's interesting because I can remember looking in the mirror not long before that drunken night with the one where I. I call that my sort of revelation night, where, you know, I would look in the mirror for months and I'd started working out. I'd started doing hits at home with Joe Wicks. It's when Joe Wicks had really started with the body coach, and I was, you know, doing these hits in, you know, 2 or 3 times a week. And the weight was just not coming off. And I couldn't understand it. And I'd look in the mirror and think, your eyes are yellow, you know, you do not look great. And I had this just I mean, I've never been what you would classed as obese or even really overweight because I'm quite an active person. However, I was just at this static level with my health. I constantly fought colds, I constantly felt lethargic.

Lysha Holmes (00:10:32) - And I do want to and I know, I know, we've got time limit on this, but at some point it's important for people who particularly who potentially are going through menopause or perimenopause, you know, it. We're talking about, you know, then early 40s, I know now I was perimenopause and it's absolute catastrophe to be drinking alcohol when you're going through the stage of your life because your energy levels anyway compromised because if you drop in oestrogen. So I do want to talk about that because I couldn't understand it. And like you say, I wasn't you know, I've not had a tragedy through alcohol, thank God, you know, what I've had is I feel that it stole from me. And I always used to think, you know, if you go back to being that fresh teenager, you think, oh, I must be hilarious when I've had a drink. But I actually look back over my drinking career, as I like to call it, and think, do you know what? Actually, I think it quashed you.

Lysha Holmes (00:11:20) - I, I think it blurred who I thought I was, and it's only now, as you know, I'm now six and a half years sober. I could not be more illuminated in energy levels. You know, I'm 50 next year and I've never been to fit. I've never felt. I don't want to tempt fate, but I've never been so healthy. I've not had a winter cold since I've been sober. So I don't know what that tells you because as we record this now in November, I would have I would definitely be full of snot now. I would have a permanent cold all the way through Christmas and New Year, definitely, because I was just constantly pissed. And so I think I have found a cure for the common cold, which is remove alcohol and you might find that you don't actually get poorly. Really.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:11:59) - Your Nobel Prize is in the post isn't?

Lysha Holmes (00:12:01) - Thank you.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:12:02) - But I mean, what what do you want? You know, compromised immune system, inflammation, malnutrition, all of the stuff that alcohol gives you.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:12:10) - But no, it's great you found the other way out of it. And yes, we can definitely talk about the menopause, as it might not surprise you to know I'm not particularly an expert on that subject, but I am willing to learn. And I think you've kind of hit on a few really, really interesting points. The first one about doing the exercise and it not having any kind of effect, that's something that I think it would really be great to get across to the general population, the idea that actually exercise is good for you, but it should not be the first thing that you focus on. You've got to remove the alcohol before you start the exercise because the exercise just won't have any, any impact. And there are so many positive things that you could do like journaling, yoga, smoothies, meditation, whatever you know. But they won't work unless you take the alcohol out first.

Lysha Holmes (00:12:58) - And I just want to make a really good point here. And I try so hard not to be evangelical.

Lysha Holmes (00:13:02) - And I'm sure again, this will resonate with loads of you listeners. When you are talking to somebody that clearly does not intend to give up alcohol, but they are typically and I was definitely this person, and there's a word that it gets overused all the time. But anxiety, my anxiety levels were just so permanent that it was my default status. It's not that I was a worrier, but I recognize now that all alcohol did was just exasperated. You know, I can't comprehend people that, you know, they do all the things. I mean, gosh, I've journaled, I've done, I have done all those things, by the way, as a person, a yoga's amazing. It should be taught in school, but there's no point doing any of those things if you're still drinking alcohol, because you have to understand that it's going to make you feel at the worst you can feel, even if you're doing all the other things. And it just undermines everything else that you do in your life.

Lysha Holmes (00:13:48) - You know, these people that are super fit, that go, you know, they go and do marathons and then they go and pour a load of alcohol down their neck. I'm like, I think, oh my God, that, you know, you wouldn't do that to a, you know, you just feel like you're rewarding your body in the wrong way. And that's the bit I personally can't get my head around. And, you know, to be on the other side of the journey and know that we all need dopamine in different levels. And I know now I know myself and I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for anybody else. I know the dopamine hit that I get when I exercise is what I was actually seeking from the alcohol, but never got it, never got it, and it is quite addictive. I mean, I joined a gym for the first time ever in my 49 years, but the most gorgeous little gym where I live,, and it's just, you know, that's my time for myself.

Lysha Holmes (00:14:30) - I couldn't do that if I was drinking because I'm there at half five in the morning because I like to do it before the day starts. And I'm there, you know, mixture of people. But that feeling when you come out, it's a high all day and you never get that from alcohol. You might get it from your first glass of prosecco. Possibly you think you do, but then it's just to me, it's just crash, crash, crash, energy levels, all that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:14:50) - I think the thing the problem is you do get it from the first drink. That's the first drink you ever have, and you end up chasing that feeling. And you never, ever recapture it. I'm just like, clarify and make sure that I have really understood you. You practice this form of accidental aversion therapy, I guess, and then you just kind of, like, paint your own conclusion about stopping. You didn't have any additional help?

Lysha Holmes (00:15:16) - No, I didn't, because if we can all turn back around, then, you know, there were not many people talking about sobriety in 2016, 2017.

Lysha Holmes (00:15:23) - Not really. There would certainly very few alcohol free drinks out there because I can remember. So I'd gone sober, like put my flag in the sand. On the 10th of June 2017, my sister turned 30. I mean, I'm much older than her on the 6th of July. And so that was what, three weeks later. And I remember going to her 30th and there were I go, I went to the barman. And, you know, again, this might resonate for those in early sobriety. And I said, I don't want people asking me all night about what, you know, what you're drinking, what you're drinking. So I got him to make me basically a massive big glass with ice and put some mint in it, and it literally had water in it. And that was my drink all night and all night. I went round like my sister was having the photos and all that. I kept taking a drink out of my hand, going, put your drinks down when you're having the proper professional photographer.

Lysha Holmes (00:16:03) - So yes, it was accidental. I didn't have any support. I followed a few bloggers, but I didn't see. I didn't do the Alan Carr thing this time. I just did it totally on my own because I felt like, I mean, I literally had no choice. And it's important as well to talk about when you've said, look, you know, this kind of accidental journey for me, at the same time as finding sobriety, my marriage ended to my husband. And in quite a big this could possibly be a different podcast episode, by the way, because he basically came out as gay. So it was a massive shock. I didn't know there were no signs, but in terms of explaining his drinking, he was drinking from about 15, understandably. Now the point is, when he found his sobriety, we collided at the same time with our sobriety. He that's when he realized he was gay. He came out and I at that point in the May-June time when it happened, I thought, I'm either going to end up being that drunk mom drinking herself to sleep or I'm not.

Lysha Holmes (00:16:59) - And I chose not to. I knew I didn't want to do that, and apart from anything, all the childcare fell on me, which meant all the lifts everywhere. And I've never drunk, never drunk and driven ever in all my life. Just didn't, didn't even ever have one. And so I do think that helped the logistical side of where my life was at the same time. But I wasn't prepared to let that be used as an excuse to drink. So I knew then that that absolutely, resolutely so. No, I didn't have any external support. I told everybody on a night out, I'm not drinking. And I imagine this is quite common for the first year of my sobriety. If I had a pound for every time somebody asked me on a night out, you're still not drinking. You're still not drinking. I could have, you know, probably paid for drinks for everybody. But what was interesting was that you knew who your confidence were because they would be the ones that would go in.

Lysha Holmes (00:17:45) - They'd still be drinking, but going, shut up, stop asking them, you know? And even to this day, some of them still say he's still not drinking. And I go, you're still breathing air. Stop asking me.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:17:54) - I've done eight and a half years, and I still have people who I've known for 15 knocking on 20 years. They still they keep forgetting that I've stopped drinking. It's like, okay, fine. But yes, people, people are weird. So I would sort of say, would you describe it as a spontaneous sobriety? Is that a word you're comfortable with?

Lysha Holmes (00:18:18) - I'm very comfortable with that word. I think because of the time that I moderated, I'm not sure it was that spontaneous. I think I had no choice but to moderate. I couldn't carry on drinking the way that I was. I was actually killing myself. I was destroying myself from within. I permanently had that cold that I never got any more. I permanently was unwell, I permanently felt anxious, and I permanently felt lethargic to the point where I'm like, I mean, I wasn't even half the person that I am now.

Lysha Holmes (00:18:44) - And so I don't think it was spontaneous. No, I think it was. I had no choice. But I literally think it's the best decision I've ever made in my whole life to go sober. I would tell everybody that it is literally the best decision I've ever made in my life, because to me, it was quite seriously the start of my life. Alicia I genuinely mean that. That whoever the person was from the age of 15, it said the adult Lisa was born that day that I went sober. But I really mean that. That's how much it means to me.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:19:14) - You already talked a little bit about identity, and that's something that comes up a lot for people, and I think it worries people that it's a part of who they are. What you're sort of saying was it was holding you back from who you are.

Lysha Holmes (00:19:28) - I think that and that's where I think you've got to understand the reason why you're drinking. And even if you think it's a social thing, it's, you know, your comfort blanket at night, time out, you know, it's just a glass of wine in the evening while I'm watching telly with my spouse.

Lysha Holmes (00:19:42) - There's a reason why you're doing it, and I know now. And of course, my situation is unusual in the way that we split up. But actually being in a technically with somebody who's unhappy isn't unique. And a lot of people are living lives, they're probably not very happy. Or maybe you've grown apart. Whatever's happening or you're unfulfilled. Building your job or you're feeling you haven't achieved your full potential. But alcohol is the symptom of that. And I think too many people are scared because there's shame attached to admitting that you might have a drink or a drink problem. You know, we use the wrong words. Really. The language is all wrong. And I think it's only down to people like you and I that are brave enough. I think we're brave to talk about it and say, be vulnerable to yourself first and say, actually, what am I achieving? And the problem you've got, especially in the UK, is that drinking socially is the norm to do everything with alcohol, christenings, birthday parties for kids, you know, passing an exam, the first thing everybody does is they drink alcohol.

Lysha Holmes (00:20:40) - And I really think the narrative I'm hoping particularly I mean, I'm the parent of two Gen Z is, you know, yes, they do drink, they do have alcohol, but actually not a lot. Not really. To them, it's like they could take it or leave it to be honest with you, they're really you know, I will purposefully, you know, maybe get them a nice bottle of gin for a Christmas stocking or something, you know, with their requests. They've still got it unopened in their room. In fact, I can tell you that. Hand on heart, I bought one for my daughter last year. It's still untouched in the room, so I think it's almost counterintuitive that we don't recognise within ourselves the reason why we drink. But when we do, it's actually a really scary thing to admit to yourself that you know you are going to remove yourself from what is the norm. You do make yourself. I hate the word pariah, but you've just said it yourself. Even with your friends that have known you all your adult life.

Lysha Holmes (00:21:26) - And that's because people are afraid of the freedom that we get from being sober. I just call it freedom. When I comment on anybody sober post, I say that's the day of freedom for me, because it's the day that I became me. And I think people are afraid of what it could lead to. I think they're afraid it could end a relationship. It could mean that they're not with somebody they want to be with or whatever the situation. And actually a lot of people message me in that, you know, I don't put myself out there as as a sober coach, executive coach for recruiters. But the ones that do tend to connect to me through social media about sobriety, that's the thing they're scared of the most. They're scared because they know that they're in a relationship where that person won't support them. And I think that's a real shame because life's too short, isn't it?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:06) - Well, you have slightly shortened my life by saying that 15 years is my entire adult life. And thank you for that, by the way, I'm really pleased for the idea that I've only been an adult for 15 years.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:18) - Anyway, what it sort of strikes me is that your journey kind of almost the method that you use to get sober. It's all about connecting with yourself and developing that self-awareness.

Lysha Holmes (00:22:30) - Yeah, I do, I do really think that. And I think that's where I can confidently say that at the time in my life that it's happened in my 40s, which, you know, if you're listening to this and you're in your 20s or 30s, you might not be there yet. And, you know, there is a lot of people out there in their 40s and beyond who you do develop this sense of. And I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but I'm going to swear anyway. You can always bleep it out. You just don't give a fuck once you get past 40 and you learn to find that about yourself first. Some people are never get it, they never reach that, and they're just too afraid because they're conforming. Maybe they're working in a corporate world and you know, they're too scared of what that will mean.

Lysha Holmes (00:23:06) - You know, if I don't go out drinking with my bosses and, you know, if you're in the law profession or, you know, there are certain professions where you will literally be ostracized, well, that is really hard. That's really tough. But at the same time, this is your life. And if you don't want to live your best life, you then what's the point anyway? You might as well go and do something else. So I just think that for me, sobriety is not just not drinking alcohol. It really isn't. I think that's just one part of it. It's the first step, but it's about finding out who you really are. And the reason I get emotional is because I really found out who she was in that process. And, you know, I'm really happy with who I am. And I'm still I'm a work in progress. I've developed myself all the time, but had I not chosen sobriety, I would still be living this life shrouded and under a cloud all the time, never living my full potential.

Lysha Holmes (00:23:53) - I didn't realize how creative I was, I genuinely didn't, and I didn't realize that I loved exercise and I love wellbeing. And you know, for me, we use the word holistic. To me, that's what this is about. It's creating a life for yourself where you genuinely feel so sustained by yourself and fulfilled by yourself that actually don't need anybody else. Which means then you don't need the alcohol.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:24:14) - Would you go as far as to say getting sober is the easy bit? It's the rest of it that's the real world.

Lysha Holmes (00:24:20) - Yeah, I do, the thing is, and, you know, and the reason I talk about what happened in my personal life with my ex-husband, you know, that was so painful. We'd been together nearly 20 years. We had two businesses, two children, a house. And, you know, the pain that I thought I felt going through that was actually nothing to the pain that you have to go through. And you become so because you know why? You have to feel things.

Lysha Holmes (00:24:40) - You actually have to feel things. But do you know what that means? That when you're feeling things like joy and contentment, it's real. It's not just this short term, lets get pissed. You don't have to ever feel a hangover again. I mean, for me, actually I've not. We've not even talked about hangovers yet. Oh my god, they weren't a day. They weren't. The next day. They went on for 3 or 4 days, and then it'd be like Matt would just get back on it. That was still true. And I look back and I feel so sad that I wasted so many days and weeks of my life purely feeling hungover. Literally feeling hungover. Nothing else. Not ill. Just hungover. And as you get older, every day, so precious. And I don't see why you would want to waste a minute of that just feeling shit, basically.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:24) - So it's kind of like that idea that it's almost like mortgaging, isn't it? You know, like you've got you've got one night out and we get into the whole discussion as to whether alcohol improves that night or not.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:35) - Let's just, for argument's sake, say it does. You're getting one evening, what, six hours of good stuff and then four days. You paying for it and.

Lysha Holmes (00:25:44) - Paying for it? Let's just talk about something economically. I remember I didn't. If you were the same the first six months, I was spending the best part of six grand a year just to get pissed. And when you just take that and it's own, I'm like, it's just ludicrous. But yes, I think that's a really good analogy. You're saying it's a mortgage, that how important are the next few days? And, you know, when I talk to business owners and the biggest observation that they've made when they've chosen to go sober is their energy levels and their creativity. And all week it lasts, you know, literally they're up in the morning. They're, you know, they're making time for themselves. They're whatever it might be, whether it's the sun salutations, joking aside, whatever it might be running, whatever it might be, they never did that when they drank.

Lysha Holmes (00:26:29) - They couldn't fit it into their week because they were constantly just chasing that hangover till Wednesday, Thursday and then starting it again. So to me it's it's a really good analogy. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:26:38) - And I think creativity now is an interesting one isn't there. Because if you think about the way the world associates creativity, they like they like to talk about Ernest Hemingway, Scott Fitzgerald, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain. It's all about alcohol, isn't it? It was the alcohol or the drugs that made them creative. But what you're saying is that once you got sober, you started to discover this creativity.

Lysha Holmes (00:27:05) - Absolutely. And it was always when I was energized. And it still is. You know, I get some of my best ideas, whether it's for clients, you know, on projects that I'm working on, where I might have hit a bit of a brick wall, you know, those things would never have come around if I was still drinking, not least because I wouldn't have the energy but be and talking, you know, to hammer home this point about creativity because I just my brain never went there.

Lysha Holmes (00:27:26) - It never went there. And, you know, maybe there are lots of scientific reasons. Well, there will be lots of scientific reasons for that. You know, alcohol is a depressant. It's renowned for being a depressant. And I can understand why there's mystery around all these famous people that they're the few, you know, the few people that have created careers. They've also all died very young. Can I just say all those examples you gave tragically cut short by alcohol or drugs or and drugs? And I just think that most and most people listening and for most people living and populating in Western society, you are absolutely undervaluing your potential in whatever your field is by drinking. It is as simple as that. I try so hard not to be evangelical, but it's true. You just don't have the same energy level and let me tell you as well. And this sounds really judgy, but I have to say it. So when I go out with my daughters, we went to a friend's wedding earlier on this year.

Lysha Holmes (00:28:17) - I'll try and keep it generic in case anyone listens. That was at that wedding. My boyfriend, he's also sober, and we were the only sober adults in inverted commas at this wedding, and we were the only ones that danced all night and all night. We were dancing and my 16 year old daughter, she was recording us for Snapchat, and she had the two glasses of prosecco that should have been for us. And she just went, you know what? Actually, can I have a hot chocolate and all night? And then all the other teenagers, one by one, started to come and sit with me and Marcus because we were laughing, we were talking and all the other adults just kept coming over saying, not to us, but to these teenagers. You're so boring. You're so boring because you're drinking tea and hot chocolate. And this is the this is where the cycle has to stop. Stop the narrative around people that don't drink a boring. Because actually, let me tell you, you're coming up to us and saying the same thing over and over again because you're pissed.

Lysha Holmes (00:29:01) - Now that's boring.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:03) - I am a huge fan of dancing, and there's a lot of stuff that underpins it, like embodiment and, you know, it releases all of the good chemicals like you talked about with exercise and all of that kind of stuff. And you know what? I never did it when I was drunk. What do you call it?

Lysha Holmes (00:29:17) - You can't stand up. You just doing that kind of rubbish. I don't know, I agree with you totally. And I don't know if it is appropriate to talk about that. You didn't give me any rules, obviously. I asked you if there were any, but I do think it's something that should be talked about on a sober podcast is that sober sex is way better than drunk sex.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:34) - I'm happy to talk about that one. I totally and it.

Lysha Holmes (00:29:37) - Doesn't get talked about. And, you know, I don't think until meeting a sober boyfriend, I don't think I'd actually ever had sex sober, you know? But that's probably quite normal for a lot of people.

Lysha Holmes (00:29:47) - And let me get we go back to, you know, dopamine. We go back to serotonin, we go back to all the good endorphins, the good drugs in your brain, you know, dancing, having. Having conversations, being creative, going for a run. These are addictive hormones that you want in your body that you can create naturally.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:06) - Because it's using your brain the way your brain is intended to be used. Therefore, you don't have the downside of it and I can get quite boring on that. But honestly, if you don't think the benefits of being sober and better sex is talked about enough, you obviously haven't been reading my marketing materials. I bang on about that all the time. All right, I really need guys. You don't need Viagra. You just need to stop drinking.

Lysha Holmes (00:30:27) - It's totally true. And it's free.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:30) - It saves you money. I mean, that's like. Yeah, I think that is actually something that's worth filing on in a slightly more serious way. You know, you said like it was the first time I ever had sex sober.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:40) - And I think that's really that's massive. And I think that's true for so many people. And I think it's worth kind of like look at alcohol advertising. Look at the way it is presented on streaming services, on TV, on films, you know, it is. They're telling you that if you drink it, you're going to have more sex. You know, it is all about the babe in the bikini with the bottle. That's like, yeah.

Lysha Holmes (00:31:04) - It's the sexy image. It's the thinking of one. I can't think what the brands are because actually I don't pay any attention. But, you know, they're at these cocktail parties and they're all really hot and they're all going to have sex together. And it all looks really exciting. But the reality is that that bloke's going to go home and grunt and snore and probably not be able to get an erection. Certainly if he's post 45, I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And the woman is probably going to be that drunk. She's probably not gonna be able to get into certain positions, or she's just not going to remember it.

Lysha Holmes (00:31:28) - She certainly not gonna be able to orgasm, let me tell you. So I just think it should get talked about more. And people again, you know, the whole British culture is it's a bit of a stigma. Well, it's a lot of a stigma. And, you know, the fact is, but we're all doing it. We're all adults. It's a human thing to do and it's within your reach. This is what I'm trying to say to people that actually I'm not talking about you're not having a drink for one weekend and thinking it's going to have the same effect. Sobriety and sober life is a continuous process. And for me personally, it did take the ten months of moderation for me to really feel the benefits because I was still having the odd drink and it's like, you know, a smoker that says, oh, I still have the odd cigarette. It's like, well, you're not a non-smoker then, you know, falling off the bandwagon is seen as such a negative thing.

Lysha Holmes (00:32:12) - But I think that's why you just make a choice that you don't want this in your life anymore. And, you know, and I do think it's all a hard process. To answer your earlier question, I do think that actually choosing to go sober is almost the easiest part. It's living a life that's true to yourself. But the benefits are just I mean, we could just talk about them all day. We just have in every aspect of your life, you will improve who you are and you will feel more fulfilled. And you know, and I do want to make a point as well, actually. And again, this is me not being judgy, but as a parent you will be a better parent. And it is as simple as that. And it's only when you've got feedback from candid children, which I have, my youngest I'll never forget. I'll never forget this. And again, I'll try not to cry. So I've not long properly been sober. And this was 2017, so, you know, we'd split up.

Lysha Holmes (00:32:56) - Obviously he'd moved out and my older one. So at the time she would have been 13. And I remember her saying, it's really weird that you don't drink. She doesn't think that that by the way, but, you know, it meant that mum was different to other mums, right? So no teenage girl wants their mum to be different. But you know, I am anyway. And I explained I've never hidden wide stop drinking I, I talk to them very candidly about it and the younger ones. So at the time Lilly was only ten and she just said, I'm really glad you don't drink anymore mummy, because sometimes you would be you and daddy would be. You would ignore us all night. You'd be so drunk you would. You know, I was never drunk, but I would probably was to her. I said, you just you would ignore us all night. And if you had friends over. And, I mean, I was just absolutely devastated. And she said, and, you know, sometimes you would on a Sunday night.

Lysha Holmes (00:33:39) - So, you know, I wouldn't have drunk on the Sunday. But from the Friday and Saturday night she went and I could still smell wine on your breath, and it didn't smell nice. And I was so the level of shame that that still makes me actually feel is why, I mean, I would say I would never drink again, but be that level of shame. They do observe, children do learn through behaviour, and I think maybe there is a bit of a turning point culturally that Gen Z and then obviously the next generation beyond that, I do think they're making better choices. I think that there is a real sober curiosity out there, thanks to Tik Tok, thanks to people like yourself sharing things so brilliantly that it is safe space for them to think about it. But, you know, get feedback from your kids. I mean, maybe not all kids are as blunt as mine, but you know, that was enough to make me really go right. I'm never you know, I don't ever want them to make them feel like that again.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:25) - There is a lot in that. And for sure, all of the kids that I have ever met are pretty blunt. I do want to point this out. I think you are different from in such a great way. So fine.

Lysha Holmes (00:34:34) - But the thing is, it's just always thought I've just been me. And I used to think I was the most hilarious bit of a client. I'm a bit of a clown. I'm always the first to go up and down. It's possibly very badly when I was drunk. And you know, the person that sits here with you today, you know, I know who I am. I'm confident in who I am, and everybody is different. And everybody's story is different and everybody's experience is different. But the reason that I do talk about my sobriety so opening I call my. Of a cyber warrior is because I want people to feel strong and brave to say, I don't want this anymore. And our default as humans is to be sober. And that's the reality.

Lysha Holmes (00:35:06) - And that's why, you know, there are so many people with autoimmune diseases and intolerances and medical, both physical and mental issues that I think. I'm not saying it's a magic pill, but I think becoming sober will help people on those journeys more than they recognize.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:35:23) - Yeah. I mean, anything that's to do with your gut or to do with inflammation or to do with mood, it's gonna help massively. Yeah. Look, before I let you go, though, I have to ask you about the meatballs in Ikea. Do you like the meatballs in Ikea?

Lysha Holmes (00:35:38) - . Not really.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:35:39) - Nobody likes the meatballs in Ikea. But when they go to Ikea, they kind of feel the need to eat them. They like they have to eat them because they're in Ikea. And this is my really weird segue into this question. What is it that people don't want to do, but they really need to do so to maintain your sobriety? What's the one thing that no one wants to do but everybody should be doing?

Lysha Holmes (00:35:59) - You have to make difficult choices.

Lysha Holmes (00:36:00) - And actually, one of the biggest things that doesn't get talked about is that you will curate your friendship group on intentionally and intentionally. And that's really hard. Really hard, because you are you. I don't want to use the word pariah because but you will have to self curate those people that are making you feel safe enough to talk about your sober journey wherever you're at, and you will lose friends. I'm afraid I did. We didn't fall out, but they didn't make me feel safe anymore to be around them. They were the ones that continuously pestered me. Why not drinking wine, not drinking wine, not drinking. And it's a really hard decision to make, Duncan. And I think that for me, possibly that's harder than clearing all the booze at your house, all the practical things, you know, making different choices about who you spend time with, where you go. But actually your friendship group will change. And it could be family as well. It could actually mean spending less time with people that you think you enjoy spending time with.

Lysha Holmes (00:36:48) - But you know what? You will come out of it with people around a circle around you that is probably smaller, possibly different, but they will be your safe go to people and that's not a bad life thing to do.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:36:59) - Anyway, I hear you and I think you've sort of hit on something, haven't you, that it's almost like the people that actually need you the most, because the reason why they're talking about you're not drinking is because they really need to get control of their own drinking. They're almost like they need you the most, but you're not able to be there for them.

Lysha Holmes (00:37:19) - And because because you can't make choices for other people. And, you know, it's I'm not a psychologist, but we as humans, we project onto others what we actually feel about ourselves and what we're thinking. And that's very common in certain arguments. You know, you might say something that's because that's how you feel about yourself, for example. So those people that probably are saying that know that you've done it and they're just too scared to do it, but I, I genuinely think that you'll know the ones that you can take on that journey and they will come to you, and that's fine.

Lysha Holmes (00:37:46) - It might surprise you, the people that get lost along the way, but I think that, for me, is possibly one of the hardest parts of sobriety, that there will be people that just won't be on that journey with you, that you might want, or that you thought you would have, but you don't need them all you actually need is yourself. And there are so many communities like yours, you know that you can't. There's so much information out there, but it has to come from inside of you as to you why you're doing this and don't detract of it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:38:12) - It was hard, but you're now in a better place. And that's the good news, right?

Lysha Holmes (00:38:16) - It doesn't last very long. The hard part, it really doesn't. And compared to other choices and other things that you would have to make if you continue to drink or take drugs, you know, as you get older, your body will deteriorate much faster. You know, there is inextricable link between alcohol and dementia.

Lysha Holmes (00:38:32) - And for women of my age, you know, the link between estrogen dropping and dementia is all the research is available now. So I think if you want to like me, I actually want to live forever, or certainly for as long as possible. But it's the quality of life for me. It's all it's always been about quality, you, the only way you will ever achieve a high-quality life in every aspect is for me, choosing sobriety.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:38:55) - Let's do this again 51 years time. Live and we can do some dancing as we're hitting the 100 mark, right?

Lysha Holmes (00:39:03) - Oh my God, that would be really cool. Yeah, let's do it. I'm I'm I'm there for that. Definitely.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:39:08) - I had a feeling you would be right. Just before I let you go, though, how can people find out more about the amazing work that you're doing?

Lysha Holmes (00:39:14) - The main social media channel that I live on is LinkedIn, because that's where all recruiters live. So very simply put, Lysha Holmes, if you are interested in listening to my podcast, I'm on all the usual channels and it's the Recruiters Recruitment podcast.

Lysha Holmes (00:39:27) - And we do we do talk about society very often with leaders., I'm on Instagram as Lysha Holmes and that's it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:39:34) - We'll put all of that on the show notes, which is at flatpacksober.com. Lysha, I enjoyed it. That was brilliant. Thank you so much for your time.

Lysha Holmes (00:39:43) - Thank you for having me. And I enjoyed it too, even if no one else did. So hopefully they did. And it made even that one person. If it made one person stop and think, that's always my intention.