Who says living an alcohol-free life compromises enjoyment and health? Carey is the solid proof that it doesn't.

Ever think there's a connection between putting together IKEA furniture and getting sober?   The steps to sobriety is much like the methodical assembly of those Scandinavian flat-pack puzzles. Each piece, much like each day in sobriety, is a step in the right direction, building a stronger, more resilient self. The way you tackle those flat-pack puzzles reflects how you approach life's challenges.  What works for one person might not work for you.

This podcast is here to guide you through that assembly process, in a way that's both informative and entertaining. Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober!

Ever doubt to start sobriety because someone told you that living an alcohol-free life compromises enjoyment and health? In this episode, I had a very good chat with well-being expert Carey Davis-Munro about the effects of alcohol on health. She shares her struggles with alcohol, chronic fatigue, and the need for dietary changes after a health crisis. We also delve into the importance of emotional awareness and making conscious choices about food and drink for long-term well-being.

Carey emphasizes the significance of understanding the ingredients in our food and choosing nourishment that supports our health. The conversation also touches on the challenges of implementing lifestyle changes within a family and the role of non-alcoholic drinks in moderation and indulgence.

Carey's insight highlighted the journey towards an alcohol-free life that doesn't compromise on enjoyment or health.

This is how Carey built the sober life she wanted. If Carey's story resonates with you or you're on a similar path, remember that you're not alone. There's a whole community out there ready to support you. Until next time, keep building your life, one sober piece at a time.

Connect with Carey beyond the show! Follow her journey on social media for more insights and inspiration:

• Instagram
• Facebook
• LinkedIn

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:00) - Hey there soba superstars! Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober, your catalog of tips, tricks, and tactics who design your alcohol-free life. Now I am going to ruin this introduction. So I apologize to Carey right now because I've known her for ages and I think she's amazing. I'd call her a friend., which means I'm just gonna, like, just say she's amazing and not really do too much. But honestly, I think Carey is a genuine expert in a lot of fields of well-being, and I know that that is going to come across. So, Carey, thanks for joining us today.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:00:32) - No, it's my pleasure. You know, I love being able to talk on all things well-being. But certainly, you know, the topic that we're going to mention here is really close to my heart. It comes up all the time. Yeah. There is never a client that I work with that it doesn't come up with at some point.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:47) - We often talk about how pervasive alcohol is in the culture and how you know, how much it's just everywhere.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:54) - But I guess we'll get into this in a little bit more detail going on. But what you're saying is the problems that it causes, they're everywhere. They're like literally affecting everybody.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:01:03) - Yeah, I am, and I suppose, you know, like you, I always say to people when I, when we stand up and talk, I always say, like, you do that I do what I do because I got everything wrong. Yeah. My body completely crashed. I've had two near-death experiences. I can remember running down the middle of a road in Brighton, the main road having come out of a club and somebody pulling me back and taking me to safety. I played very high end sport. I was lucky enough to play international sport when I was younger and unfortunately the culture is you play hard, you drink hard, whatever level, and I was playing to a high level and I believe that took my body to a complete crash. I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue. As I say, I was on and off the operating table more times than I care to mention.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:01:47) - I had two knee operations and I had to really take myself in hand. And part of taking myself in hand and dealing with the hormones. I lost an ovary because I nearly bled out meant that for me, food became a big thing as I know it is for you. But part of food is everything that we let past the gateway of our teeth. So I had to ask myself, is this going to take my body, my soul, my mind through to my future where I want to be? Is it going to hold me where I am? Or worse still, is it going to take me back? And I was in a difficult place. My body was not going to survive the way I want it to survive in the form that I want it to survive going forward to my future. So yes, it's all pervasive and and you and I know in terms of taking yourself in hand and wanting to make some changes and upgrade health wise, it's probably one of the first things we should look at.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:38) - Yeah. And I think I think you've hit on something really interesting there, because what we think of, I guess, is that the food and alcohol being something that passes your lips,, that it falls into two categories, doesn't it? One is that it is good for you, like vegetables and red wine., and two, it is it is not good or bad. It's just kind of like a little bit indifferent, like McDonald's and,, you know, sugar and Oreos and things like that. We don't sort of think of that third category being it's actually doing a massive amount of harm to you.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:03:15) - Well, I mean I'd say that second category is, is pretty much there. You know, if you're making the choice of McDonald's and ultra processed foods you are doing super harm to yourself., and it was actually do you know what Duncan. Something I use a lot. You said to me, you probably don't even remember this point, but you said to me a few years back, I now everything's become very, very simple.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:03:37) - Yeah. I ask myself, is this food? As in does it feed my body? What nutrients does it have? And the truth of the matter is that so much out there is not food. Yeah. Do I want to consume that? And obviously we become part of every mouthful that we let past the gateway of our teeth. So what do I want to be made of? Is it something that is going to serve me, or is it something that's going to hurt me? And to me, that's almost two very, very clear categories.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:10) - Yeah. So no it's like is it food or is it a food like product. That's. Yeah. That's the way I always talk about it. Yeah.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:04:19) - Let's face it, most of the stuff in the supermarkets,, you know I always say to people one clear, you know, one clear way to understand, do I want to eat this is to pick up the packet, hopefully eat out of packets. That's what's the biggest thing.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:04:33) - Try not to pick up anything that's got more than two ingredients in it. And if you don't understand the ingredients, put it back. Yeah., because why would we put things into our body that we don't understand for a start. And if we don't know what we're putting in, why not?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:52) - Yeah, yeah. And if you have you ever actually thought about the process that,, stuff goes through to turn it from? Vegetables into alcohol, yet there's quite a lot of processing., yeah. No., well, look, I. Before we get to. Interesting. Interesting. That's the problem. I haven't even asked the first question that I'm supposed to ask. I'm, like, legally obliged to talk about Flatpack furniture. So, you know Ikea, right?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:05:23) - Oh, yeah, I do. Yes. Good.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:05:26) - , so if I gave you an Ikea product and asked you to assemble it, what would your approach be? How would you,, how would you get started?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:05:34) - Oh my goodness me.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:05:35) - So I'm going to be really honest. I'm I'm I pretty much know what I'm good at in life. Flatpack furniture I'm not very good at. So if you gave me a package, first of all, I would probably ask my sister, who's amazing at these things when she had some time to be able to do it, she actually enjoys it, so I'd probably employ some help., and if that didn't work, then I would, you know, I'd have to get to reading the instructions myself and taking it bit by bit. But for me, it's not one of my strengths. I'd get some, I'd get some support.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:06:07) - Yeah, I know, look, we we do, we do love outsourcing. It's like it's an important thing. But,, if I forced you to do it, would you be sitting down with the instructions, reading them cover to cover? Would you be tearing open the packet and getting stuck in?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:06:22) - Oh, no, I I'd open the packet. I do that thing of sorting out your little wooden bits and your plastic covers and your whatever it was.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:06:30) - And then I would read the instructions, guide. You know what? It's it's silly really. I know you should really read the whole of the instructions before you get started, but knowing me, I'd probably just read 0.1 and get going with .10.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:06:43) - Okay, so it's a little bit like you kind of want to get the information and like absorb it because you want to lay everything out, don't you? You want to kind of understand it, but there's still this bit of you that just wants to get stuck in. Right.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:07:00) - Well, I sort of wanted to get stuck in, but I know that I'm not good at. Yeah, I'm gonna come back. I know I'm not good at that stuff. So I know from past experiences, if I just get stuck in, I'll make a mistake, actually.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:07:12) - Okay., so how does that kind of relate to how you sought out other problems in your life? Are you do you reflect on it, or do you get stuck in, do you think about it, or do you want to get some help? What's your sort of natural kind of learning style? Problem solving style?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:07:30) - Okay, so you're asking a coach, obviously.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:07:32) - So,, for me and and a coach that I would say is quite reflective, you know, reflection with clients etc. is quite a big part of my practice. But also so is coaching through emotions. So I'm big on understanding what emotion just happened there. Can I name it? Can I call it out? Can I understand what the chemical process that was therefore happening in my body was? What did it do to me? How do I need to regain balance and how do I move through? Because I know that our cognitive function, I know that our thought processes and,, my actions are going to be determined by we're just a mass of chemicals. Right? So I know that depending on where my chemicals are at, triggered by my emotions, I might make a decision. And I'd like it to make a decision that I look back on in a couple of weeks and say, yes, I'm pleased I took that decision.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:30) - Wow. That is by far the deepest answer I've ever had to.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:35) - How do you build Flatpack furniture? I knew you weren't going to disappoint.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:08:40) - I'm sorry about that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:42) - No, no. It's cool, it's cool. What is? I like to sort of, like, start off and and help people to get an idea of where you're coming from. And, you know, the way you learn things and the way you solve problems, because that will what you've just said will probably resonate with some of the listeners. Some of the listeners will probably think, oh, but I don't do things like that. And I think it really helps to to get an idea of your style before we start talking. Although we already have started talking, haven't we?, just so that people can think, well, yes, that's very much like me. That's why this really resonates with me or that's not very much like me. That's why I should probably really focus on doing it, because it's the kind of thing I generally ignored it. So,,, yeah, that's good.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:09:25) - But like, I want to pick up on that kind of idea about emotions and having the language to talk about emotions., do you think that is something that people generally struggle with, that they don't know how to name and understand emotions?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:09:42) - Yes., yeah, I do definitely. So I coach around this an awful lot., and I also believe that our emotions, obviously our food,, and our drink translate into our energy, as does our exercise, as does the impact upon other people's energies around us. But,, you know, our our emotions dictate how much energy we have at any given point during the day. So things take us into upward spirals, things take us into downward spirals. So being able to spot where we are and actually make a conscious choice. Okay, well, do I want to stay here? Yeah, I'm feeling pretty rubbish. I'm going to wallow in this for a while. And actually, I might go even further into disappointment. You know, it becomes my evening, my, my persona for this evening or do I want to stop it? And I want to spiral upwards.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:10:28) - What do I need to do? How do I take a conscious choice? So it's about being empowered and understanding what takes us up, what takes us down, what our triggers might be, what that does to the body and how we want to move through it. Because if we don't, it's a bit like being on a treadmill for the day we get off. And I don't know, do you know how many emotions we have a day?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:10:52) - Owe a lot. Give me a number.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:10:56) - Oh, I don't know. I read somewhere,, that we people reckon we have about 60,000 thoughts every day, so it's going to be a huge number. So I will go,, 30,000.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:11:08) - Okay. No, we have about 400 to 500 emotions. But if we don't recognise them, then we can't pay homage to them and we can't understand what we need from them. So it's a bit like moving through the day with your fingers through the through the ears. Yeah. And we can end up in very high cortisol driven situations, which then become again, our story for a very long time because we're not actually understanding how to process and how to move through.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:11:37) - So that's why it's so important to be able to stop, understand where you are, and make a conscious choice about where you go next. Yeah, yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:11:47) - So it's it's that awareness piece that's the kind of like the, the starting point of it all. But you know, if your vocabulary extends to mad, bad and sad, then even being aware of it isn't necessarily going to help you that much. You need a bit more emotional literacy, for want of a better phrase.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:12:09) - Yeah, I think it's okay. You know, if your vocabulary was just, well, yeah, I'm feeling bad. So. So then my job would be to unpack that. Well, what do you mean by that? And then how do you feel that where do you feel that how are you holding that. You know, what does that do to your body?, how do you think that impacts your decision making? So it's for me to then unpack that I can work with just mad or bad. You know, people often say, I say, how are you? You know, give me my coaching sessions involve a real emotional check in, and then people say, oh, I'm just stressed.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:12:47) - Stressed, okay. We're stressed. Even an emotion. Funnily enough, it does appear on many emotion wheels. But stress can be a good thing, right? So yeah, what is it? Good stress that's energizing you, lifting you up, getting you through the task to the or is it stress that's ongoing? Therefore it becomes chronic. Therefore it becomes inflammatory which leads to dis ease in the body which we know alcohol leads to. So,, you know, all it goes, it takes the conversation in all of those directions.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:20) - Oh, very nice actually. Let's take it slightly back to alcohol, because you, you gave us a bit of an idea of,, the issues it was causing in your life. What what was there anything in particular that motivated you to stop? Was there like a big light bulb moment?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:13:37) - Well, yeah, I guess,,, you know, my body gave up in in so many ways that I can barely describe, you know, my digestion. To say it was sluggish is an understatement.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:13:49) - It would all but stopped., at 25, I had pain in all my joints., now, I had done, you know, I had had a hard paper round in terms of the sport I'd played, but actually I had pain in all my joints., my eyes hurt. I had constant headaches., I had so many symptoms. And for the first time, I went and saw a nutritionist who who, funnily enough, and some of this has been debunked, but I'm going to tell you, it was true. So I don't care what the evidence says. She took a hair sample from the back of my head, had it sent off to a place called the Smokies in the States., and without knowing my name or anything about me, it just profiled everything I've just said there a person with, and it said I had high levels of aluminium., would likely to be having pain in all their joints. Their digestion will be a real problem. There will be headaches,, chronic fatigue.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:14:44) - It was the biggest shock. And at that point I was coming up to around 30. I knew that in some point, and I wanted to have children., and my body wasn't in any shape. I had punished it, thrashed it, you know, through in many different ways, and I needed to take stock. So one of the first things I did with that nutritionist was to go on a detox. And that detox was six weeks of no no wheat. Not that I have a gluten allergy, but no wheat, no alcohol, no sugar., I'm trying to think what else? No dairy,, no red meat. And I did it for six weeks, and we were, because it sort of linked more to apples. Let me say you were allowed to have a cider if you wanted, of an evening, but I didn't. I didn't do that. I didn't want a cider., and at the end of the six weeks, you know, it was like, well, you can go back now and you've, you've improved, but choose what to put back in and you can go and have a drink.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:15:43) - And I decided I didn't want to have a drink. Why did why would I do that? You know, I'd spent six weeks getting my body to a point where it could function. I felt better, I wasn't having headaches every day. And if I could detox in this way, then I wanted to know more. So this was my point. To go back or to power up. So I powered up by doing a course in nutrition understanding further., and I didn't want to spoil my body by putting those things back in it, because I knew at that point I'd done myself serious damage, and I and I had a choice in terms of my why, what I wanted, and how I was going to power up.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:16:28) - So that's quite interesting, isn't it? That's not necessarily a traditional path to sobriety, is it?, but it's not actually that unusual, I guess, because you had the help of this nutritionist. Did they, they do some sort of, like, classic kind of coaching stuff to get to grips with the beliefs around, you know, your diet and your style and alcohol.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:16:51) - Absolutely none. Which is I, which is why I believe that I should work with many more nutritionists,, and naturopaths, because what they tend to do, which is great because I went and learnt about it myself and I had access to it, and I wanted to learn was they recommend that this is the way that you should eat? You cut out this and these are the supplements that you take. Most people won't go off and do that for very, for very long. Most people I luckily, I like you, I love cooking, I love playing around with food. I was happy to throw everything out my kitchen. That didn't serve me at that point. It never came back in. All the white stuff, all the sugared stuff, all the process stuff. And I went on a journey where I was just engaged on the food and the cooking and how to incorporate the good things. Now, I was lucky that that was one of my passions. Most people I meet. Don't feel the same way and find that really, really hard.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:17:49) - And they need support to incorporate what a nutritionist or someone has said. These are the recommendations because that's one thing. But changing what your family eats, changing what your partner eats, changing, you know, all of that, that's really hard, you know. And you know this, right. But but because we do the cooking well flipping heck, why do they eat what we eat, right. Or or they, they ain't going to get fed. But back then it was well held on. My children know now they've always known the way I eat, the way I drink, whatever. But back then I was making a radical change from one day literally to the next. So my choices impact upon my partner. Luckily he was, he was happy to come along with that ride. But lots of the people that I work with, obviously, and we know this with alcohol, you're suddenly thinking, well, this is me. I'm changing my identity. I'm changing all of this. What about those around me? And and that's why every nutritionist should then they say, then take what I've given you, and now go and work with a coach who can help implement this for you.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:18:57) - No, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I guess the analogy would be, what if you just told people to drink less than 12 units a week and told them that it was killing them and that actually alcohol was really, really bad for you? You think that would make many people stop drinking? Not. Not really, I mean. So what? What you're what you think people need is not simply the information, but actually some, some help to implement it. And I guess you were kind of like there was this nice kind of coming together of lots of different elements. So. So you felt bad and you were aware of some of the reasons why you were feeling bad, and then you cut all of that out and it made you feel better. And that just kind of like drove the change. And you had a lot of it, a lot of skills and, you know, being a little bit reflective anyway, that all kind of like helped along the journey is that.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:19:53) - Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think, you know, again I'm like you, I, I like to voraciously read around a topic and learn. And I did so much learning and this is what I say to my clients. They get to a point where even if they're struggling with the the whole alcohol journey, I always say, you got to a point, don't sweat it. You've come too far to go back. You know too much. Your knowledge now is too great. That was you. It's never going to be you again. And even if you've got a few more learns, which is what I call the the dips along the way, you cannot go back. And I got to a point where that wasn't me anymore. I, I knew too much to change what I ate, what I put on me. Because let's not forget, it's not just what we eat, it's what we put on us because it absorbs and it becomes us. So I knew too much to go back, and I couldn't let that past.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:20:46) - And that's why I always say this. The gateway of my teeth.. I didn't want it to become my body.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:20:54) - I think that is such a profound realization that you probably probably shouldn't blow my mind. But hey, your body is made up of what you put in it.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:21:04) - Every cell. And you know, what people always say is, oh, don't worry. You know, we replicate at different rates, which we do. So we got replicates at a different rate than the skin on our arms. Brain cells replicate at a very slow rate. So my God we have to be careful of, you know, our brains and what we're doing there. But if that's the case and actually we're not renewing all the time as we think we are, but we are renewing. You can only be made of the nutrient stuff that you put in there, and you will only be made of also the detrimental stuff. And as Doctor Amin says, you know, talks about the brain when he scans the brain.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:21:44) - One alcoholic drink a week is making a big difference to what he sees on the scans. So absolutely zero alcohol is safe for your brain and your brain development and how well you're going to be in later life, and that's a real fascination for me. I'm not concerned with how we are now or just how long we're going to live, but it's our quality of life, isn't it?, and we know that the last 20 years of our life, for most of us right now, are spent in a state of dis ease. Shocking, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:22) - I personally plan to be Morris dancing into my hundreds, but,, that is not the story for most people, is it?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:22:31) - No it's not. And you know, we are,, we are a result of,, choices. We all have choices. And as much as you and I know about this stuff because, you know, as you know, both of us have been through the the excesses and we've, I guess, dedicated, devoted,, what we do in terms of our coaching to supporting people to feel better, to fulfill what they want to do in life, to make themselves space, to understand what damage some of these unhealthy, self-soothing activities can do.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:23:07) - Because don't forget, it's not just alcohol. There are unhealthy. Self-soothing comes in many different ways., but, you know, we have examples in the world where people do live to a very long and very healthy age. And in the UK, the US, the West, we live to 60. And then we know from then on most of us are going to have some sort of dis ease or non-communicable diseases. And we do know that the biggest contributor are things like smoking, obesity through eating the wrong foods and alcohol.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:23:44) - Yeah, absolutely. So I just want to pick up on one point, because I think one of the the big similarities we have is we do like to get a bit obsessed with the, the information and the learning and the qualifications and finding the stuff out. And I think I don't ever want to kind of like. Make it so that it sounds like I'm recommending everybody needs to be a sober coach to become sober. Well, that idea of like, really going deeply into the information and really learning about it and getting a good understanding of it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:24:18) - How important do you think that is?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:24:23) - I think it's. I think it's important. You know, I know lots of people that coach around menopause. They haven't been through menopause., you know, I know lots of people that will support people through cancer. They haven't had cancer themselves. You know, I've got clients who've got cancer, and I haven't been through that myself., more important than that, I think it's really important to be honest and authentic within that. You know, I, I always say to people when I do masterclasses or 1 to 1 coaching or whatever it was, I know people want to hear around this stuff, that it's okay, it's a balance. You can moderate. It's, you know, you can go out for a weekend and have have, you know, a few beers and then you can get back on the exercise and you're okay. I want to say that I have to be truthful about that. That's not right. Right. We don't we're not a bank account in terms of, well, we didn't eat right and we drank a lot over the weekend, but it's okay because I'm going to exercise.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:25:22) - I'm going to run six miles every day., so more importantly, maybe than knowing all the details is you you've got to know what you're saying is the truth and. Right. And if you're coaching and saying, oh yeah, balance is okay, then I'd say, well, that's not really honest, because we have to be able to say the evidence shows us. And one of the, one of the things the businesses I work in, you know, always want, and I'm very clear about that. Everything I do is evidence based. So yes, I might have my own opinions now on different things, but as a coach, we know that means nothing. My opinion is irrelevant, but the evidence that is coming out of, you know, all the, the, the biggest research centres and universities and everything else show us the facts about these things. So it's important as a coach, if you don't know that you could be giving out, I think, very misleading information because you know, I went into a school, Duncan, and you'll love this.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:26:27) - , I was talking about, again, foods and nourishment and, and foods that were healthier and foods that aren't so good for us. I was told not to talk about foods that aren't good for us. And of course, they can have balance with the McDonald's and this and that. If they then have an apple and,, and, and actually I felt really, really, you know, this cognitive dissonance because it wasn't true. I couldn't tell a class full of children that that was had any nutrient in there for them and that, you know, that's okay to do all the have your bags of sweets and this and that because you're then going to have an apple not right. And actually if you're having an apple on top of that, you're having sugar on top of sugar. So, you know, there was still no nutrient basis. So I think we have to be honest. And if that means, yeah, you need to do a bit of research to understand the facts, then all well and good.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:27:22) - And so I think. There is always this idea of kind of finding a middle course between, you know, overindulgence and kind of like out and out temperance. I don't think there's really. You know, I don't think it's necessarily that healthy to be completely living like a monk the entire time and never letting loose. It's just the the way most people think of balance is far closer to overindulgence than it is to temperance. Is that fair?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:28:00) - Yes. Yeah. Because obviously our society reflects that. It's,, it's accepted. It's,, you know, it's supposed that that's the way that we're going to be. And I don't think it's living like a monk. I mean, God, I, I'd say I indulge if I'm a foodie. I love my food and drink. I get excited about my non-alcoholic drinks. You know, I've just discovered Momo. I love that, you know, I've never tasted a kombucha like that., you know, I get excited about my sparkling water stuffed with pomegranate and lime and mint and basil, and that doesn't make me a monk.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:28:37) - That just is now what I enjoy. So let's be. You know, I think we have to be careful about the mindset around that. I haven't set out to be a monk or to to to be one extreme. That is what I do, and I enjoy my food and I indulge. I would say, you know, that is indulgence for me to make that drink each night, and it is indulgence for me to stand and cook from fresh. So I think we have to be careful about that and the mindset around it and give other people, you know, one word that people use a lot is I want to treat myself well. You can but understand that a treat is meant to be something that's good.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:19) - And that's, I guess, the greatest irony that,, alcohol has, isn't it? It's like I like to treat myself by poisoning myself.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:29:30) - Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, would we really go to our car and take a, you know, a pint of ethanol and put it into your body? Well, in reality, that is what we're doing.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:45) - So I guess what you're saying is it's more kind of a way of reinterpreting what we regard as being enjoyable and being a treat and,, indulging ourselves.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:29:58) - Yeah, I don't as I said, I don't see myself as a monk. I don't see what you know. It's not about being perfect or imperfect or right or wrong or anything else. It's about understanding deeply what your body needs and what you want from your body. What do you want your body to be look like, feel like in 20 years time? And you know, and people often say, well, I don't want to give it up. I really enjoy this now. And and, you know, one of the questions I always say it's more at what cost? One of my favorite coaching. At what cost? And you know, when I was purely a while back, I coached on a,, you know, an alcohol free site in terms of people wanting to give up. And they would some of them say, well, what I want to do is I want to get to a point.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:30:45) - This is probably more common than anybody else. You probably see this with your clients. I want to get to a point where I can have one drink or two drinks, and then I can stop. I again, I have to be really honest from the point that they're coming from. That's probably never going to happen. But as a coach, that's not my role to say that, but it is to go on that journey and see where we get to. So I will be honest and say, in my experience, that's a tough reality. What does that give you? What does that feel like? Why do you want that? But and that's what people see as balance, by the way isn't it., and then we see where that goes. And yeah, ten times out of ten it goes one way.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:31:26) - No, I think I spend a lot of time about a year ago really thinking about what, what point would it be safe for me to drink alcohol again? And not that I was planning on it, just like as an entirely theoretical idea, like this kind of thought experiment, where would I need to be? Where would I, what would need to happen? And I concluded that the point in my life where it would be safe for me to drink alcohol again would be if I didn't want to drink alcohol again.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:31:56) - And then why would I do it?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:31:59) - What do you mean by safe? I'm just interested to know what you mean there.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:03) - So you get a lot of people who say, oh, you know, if I have one drink, it'll turn into a weekend bender.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:10) - And I wonder, you know, because a lot of people talk about controlled drinking and mindful drinking and all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, I think we need to we have a duty to, to explore these ideas rather than just to stick to the, the thing that we,, we, we, we believe, which, of course, I believe that for many people, they've got to a point whereby they are no longer able to drink alcohol again., I think I am one of those people., but, you know, just as a kind of thought experiment, where, where would where would you need to be? And the kind of, I think the, the time you are able to moderate your drinking is when you don't want to drink.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:51) - And if you don't want to drink, then why would you drink anyway?


Carey Davis-Munro (00:32:55) - Yeah. And when you say you're one of those people do you mean you know that it could go only one way or what do you mean by that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:05) - Well I think at a neurological level I've fundamentally changed my brain. So the way my brain reacts to alcohol is not the way that somebody who has not been exposed to alcohol. My brain will react differently., go. If I sit down and start drinking, I expect I will probably continue.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:33:25) - Right.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:33:28) - Well, just out of interest, when was the last time you had a drink?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:32) - , so, strictly speaking,, I was in a show,, last Christmas, so it's probably like 11 months ago, and there's a bit in it, so we we perform it,, all throughout the community,, a couple of times over, like the period of about a while, a couple of big chunks over a period of a week.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:53) - So we probably perform it 15 or 16 times, mostly in pubs, to be honest with you. And there's a bit in it where one of the characters gives one of the other characters a drink. So I was playing,, the from the night character in it and the doctor character in it was a drink into his throat. And because the vast majority of people that do that show drink alcohol, probably dangerously, but that's a different matter., they tend to use real whiskey when they're doing it. So actually, somebody did pour a shot of whiskey down my throat,, about 11 months ago. But I don't really count that., I've been sober for eight and a half years. Is the is the is the long answer?


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:36) - This is turning into your podcast. You're interviewing me.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:34:40) - Look, I'm bound to have some questions. They're just popping up for me. What do you expect?


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:46) - Nothing less. So you mentioned,, some non-alcoholic drinks. Have you found that useful in terms of being sober? Are there any particular ones that you like?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:34:59) - Yes.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:35:00) - , well, I just mentioned I've only just. I do like some beaches, but not loads. My, my go to is sparkling water,, with a massive dose of freshly squeezed lime,, a couple of centimeters of freshly squeezed line. That's my absolute go to,. If I go out, eat anywhere, I have sparkling water with squeezed lemon or lime. If I'm lucky enough to go somewhere where they've got some ginger too, then I will do that., and often I'll sort of make some shots with turmeric, ginger and lemon, and I'll put that in sparkling water and let it dry. Let it dilute as an ice cube. That's my favourite., I don't I'm not into, you know,, getting substitute wines or substitute drinks., but there is one and I can't remember. Oh, there's one that I absolutely love again, called symmetry., and symmetry do a citrus mix. They do a,, a spicy mix and then, then a third, which I've completely forgotten because I only have the citrus mix, obviously.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:36:05) - So I'm a citrus person., and I love that. And that's again a little shot that you have. But one of the things I will say is I only have that again, because the whole shot has got less of,, less sugar in it than the,, the juice of a lemon or a lime. Most of our substitute drinks I wouldn't touch. Because you look at the label and you look at what's in it, I don't want to have that. So that's why I have sparkling water with lots of yummy things.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:36:32) - So any,, any plans to stick sparkling water with a little bit of citrus and some ginger in a cannon and flog it for £6? Yeah.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:36:40) - No, but I should. I probably should, having had a food business before, I probably should think about that. But no, not really, not really. That's not where I'm at right now.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:36:51) - But these days everyone's getting on the wagon. I'm just saying.


Carey Davis-Munro (00:36:56) - I've tried the, I've tried. What's the what are the what a trip. Have you tried trip?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:02) - No, no, it's. It's not really a big thing for me. Alcohol free drinks. I, I grew up when Evian was advertising heavily, so I had Perrier. So I think sparkling water is actually the point of sophistication. And that's why I love the sparkling water.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:37:22) - Yeah. Me too. Now I'm not I'm not an alcohol substitutes at all., trip is CBD., but actually, for me, it it can keep me awake all night, so I don't have them either. Yeah, it's back to the sparkling water.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:37:38) - Interestingly,, you know, you're quite into natural plant based stuff., marijuana is a naturally occurring plant. What are your thoughts on that?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:37:53) - Well, this is a difficult one as well, isn't it? Yeah, it is, and it is a naturally occurring, occurring plant. I suppose the question for me with all of these things is at what cost? So again, when we look at the evidence and we look at the experts and one of the experts, I do follow, when we look at the body and the brain, just one of the experts is, is Doctor Eamonn.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:38:16) - And he talks about this and the effect on the brain., it's not pretty., especially when we know that,, I have three teenagers,, two, two boys., and I know that this was and has been and probably is, you know, part of their world, part of their life. Now, we also know that with the male, their brain doesn't form fully until they're around 27, 28. And we know that if they're smoking. Yeah. And take out the tobacco. If, you know, if they're smoking marijuana, then it has a detrimental effect on the way that their brains are forming. So when you ask me a question, it's at what cost? What could be the damage? Does it have an effect upon our bodies or brains or heart or, you know, our gut? Because that's a massive one for me as well., and in terms of our brain function and development and what it does yet has a detrimental effect. Having said that, I know it can be so useful for people if they are in pain or they're going through different, you know, challenging situations.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:39:19) - And the same way that I always say, yes, allopathic medicine is is so important at that point, then obviously I'm very open minded and I am open to alternative methods for support and pain in that way.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:39:33) - I'm glad you mentioned the gut because I have actually eaten my,, pineapple and turmeric sauerkraut today, so I'm like, yeah. Happy days.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:39:45) - Oh, no. This is the good stuff. It's the good stuff. And like you say, it's like. It's just reframing what you think of as a tree. You know, you asked me 20 years ago, I'd have just laughed at me talking about pineapple and turmeric sauerkraut. But now you know I like my day. Anyway.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:40:02) - Did you make it, Duncan? Did you make it?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:05) - No, I have I haven't got into making fermented food just yet, but what brand is that?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:40:10) - Just for me to know what brand it is.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:14) - Veda. I think that's what they're called. Actually, Waitrose like posh stuff in Waitrose.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:20) - They do. They do a garlic and dill, sauerkraut and kimchi and they're all amazing., yeah.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:40:28) - Some of the kimchi is there in Waitrose., just off the scale, you know, again, if someone had told me I'd be eating kimchi, but,. Yeah, there we are.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:37) - Well, I went to Korea when I was 14 and ate kimchi back before it was fashionable.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:47) - Something like that. So, no, I have a feeling I know the answer to this question, but, IKEA meatballs. Are you a fan?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:41:00) - I don't know, maybe. Look, maybe my 17-year-old me would have been a fan, but, no, I wouldn't be eating. I wouldn't be doing that. Not as a not as a plant-based vegan.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:12) - Although they do, you can always tell the bandwagon has been thoroughly jumped on because Ikea now do vegan meatballs.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:19) - So so.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:22) - So,, maybe I'll treat you next time., look, this is kind of like my weird segue. I don't think anyone likes the meatballs from Ikea. I think they are just generally a bit rubbish and nobody really likes them, but they kind of feel like when they go to Ikea, they've got to eat them. And this is my sort of question about sobriety. What is the thing that nobody wants to do, but they really, really should do?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:41:49) - You mean around? You mean around drinking?

Speaker 4 (00:41:52) - Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:41:55) - Well, there's only one answer to that. You know what? What did what do we coach around? What do people think that you know? Is that what you mean? What do they.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:42:05) - They should stop doing it once they've stopped doing it. What's the kind of the one thing that they don't want to do, but they should do that will actually help them stay sober?

Carey Davis-Munro (00:42:16) - They don't want to do, but they should do.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:42:18) - Gosh, I'd say well, no. Well, again, I don't like the word should. So I don't like the, you know, let's take that out., I think the brilliant thing was once you've stopped alcohol, nothing becomes a should. You've got a whole range of choices., and naturally, what happens is you start to upgrade., and probably one of the things that you will find yourself doing is changing the people around you and your tribe and the way that you socialize and everything else. Now that can feel really difficult, really awkward., and,, yeah. So so that will probably be part of your journey. One of the things that that's not I definitely not should, but please choose to do is find substitutes, which you absolutely love. Because one of the things I say with alcohol is this is not about denial. Yeah. And food as well. It's not about what you can't have. It's about what you can have. And when you stop alcohol, the whole lot is what does this open up for me? What can I have? What is a real tree? What is going to leave my body feeling better? What is an upgrade? Yeah, and we're moving upwards.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:43:28) - We're moving forwards. We're moving into a better future. So none of it is should. But but actually you will have a range of choices. And there will be things that better support your journey to maintain where you want to go. And so good substitutes are an absolute must because we want our treats. We want you to get to the end of an evening and feel, oh, I'm going to go and do whatever it is. I'm going to go and have my three squares of very dark chocolate, which, you know, we could all be having because that's very good for us. So let's think about what that could be so that we do not ever feel denial for something which is damage.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:44:07) - Nice, nice. And just on the point about upgrading the people you hang around with., I met you since I got sober, so I can totally and utterly,, you know, advocate for that. It's,. Yeah, yeah. Hanging around in Green Park in Redding, talking to fascinating people like you is definitely been a huge part of my journey.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:44:27) - So, look, I am totally aware that we have only just scratched the surface of your massive expertise and knowledge. So how can people find out more about what you do? Learn a bit more of the good stuff.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:44:39) - Yeah, as usual, I'm sort of everywhere as eating Irish flourish so you can find me on Instagram., I don't really love social media, but I, I, I do it because I run my own business, sadly., so find not sadly, that I run my own business, but sadly that we have this thing called social media that we are compelled to be part of. So you can find me on Instagram, eat, nourish, flourish., Facebook. I'm really don't do much of that. But you can find me as Kerry Davis Monroe or eat, nourish, flourish., I'm very active on LinkedIn again. Just my name. Eat, nourish, flourish or obviously my website eat nourish flourish.com.

Speaker 4 (00:45:15) - Cool.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:45:15) - , we will put that on the,, show notes at flatpack sober.com.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:45:20) - But I think people have got the message Google, eat, nourish, flourish and you come up. Right.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:45:25) - I even write a book called that.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:45:27) - I did. Do you even went through the process of what do we call it? And then it was pretty obvious. We call it eat, nourish, flourish. And you know, that process is 12 Steps to healthier eating, but it's 12 steps to whatever you want to cut out as well. So,, you know, it's more of a, it's more of a coaching book. People always still say to me, I've got your recipe book, but I never really wanted to write a recipe book. I wanted to write a process and a coaching book to upgrade and really go through the same process I did, to put myself first and to pay homage to my body to get me through the rest of life.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:02) - I mean, I, you know, that's why that's why we get out of bed in the morning, isn't it? Because we've made some changes.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:08) - They feel amazing and we want to share them with the people.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:46:11) - It is. That's why we do it. And and that's why I start by saying, don't you know, I do this because I got it all wrong. And I want to,, support people to feel better. What a great job that we have, Duncan, that we make people feel better.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:24) - And I'm warming up to the idea of telling people that I did 20 years of drink and drug hell, so you don't have to.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:46:32) - Yeah, I did that. All for you.


Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:35) - Big guy, I know.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:46:37) - I know what a sacrifice, though.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:39) - I know. Look perfect., thank you so much for your time today, Gary., it's been amazing.

Carey Davis-Munro (00:46:44) - My pleasure. Anytime.