Artie Martello's journey to sobriety began with a realization that alcohol was interfering with his productivity and personal goals. The severe hangovers and the impact on his life led him to make a significant decision in 2019 to stop drinking.

Ever think there's a connection between putting together IKEA furniture and getting sober?   The steps to sobriety is much like the methodical assembly of those Scandinavian flat-pack puzzles. Each piece, much like each day in sobriety, is a step in the right direction, building a stronger, more resilient self. The way you tackle those flat-pack puzzles reflects how you approach life's challenges.  What works for one person might not work for you.

This podcast is here to guide you through that assembly process, in a way that's both informative and entertaining. Welcome to Flat-Pack Sober!

Have you ever wondered what it takes to truly transform your life and embrace sobriety?

In this episode, we chat with Artie Martello, the host of the Thoughtfully Mindless podcast, where he shares his history of heavy drinking starting at age 14 and escalating in his 20s, leading to severe hangovers and decreased productivity.

He decided to quit drinking in 2019, facing several challenges in his sobriety journey, including attending social events and parties without alcohol. He emphasized the importance of finding empowerment in navigating these environments sober. The pandemic reinforced his commitment to sobriety, and meditation played a crucial role in maintaining his clear mindset. They also discuss the nuanced role of marijuana in Artie's life and the importance of mindfulness and genuine connections.

This episode is a testament to the power of self-awareness, mindfulness, and continuous learning in navigating the path to sober living.

This is how Artie built the sober life he wanted. If Artie's story resonates with you or you're on a similar path, remember that you're not alone. There's a whole community out there ready to support you. Until next time, keep building your life, one sober piece at a time.

Transcript

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:00) - Hey there Soba superstars! And welcome to another edition of Flat Pack Sobre your catalog of tips, tricks and tactics to help you design your alcohol free life. So today I am joined by the host of the Thoughtfully Mindful Podcast. He's also an entrepreneur, and he's also insanely curious, which I think is a fantastic way to begin your sober journey. So, let's dig into it. Let's find out what Artie Martello has found out about sober living. So, Artie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Artie Martello (00:00:34) - Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:36) - Oh, cool. So, you I know you are familiar with Ikea. You know who they are, don't you?

Artie Martello (00:00:43) - I do, yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:00:44) - So if I was going to ask you to build some flatpack Ikea furniture, what would be your approach?

Artie Martello (00:00:50) - My typical approach would be to, unpack everything in no particular order and just go at it from the picture I see and just try to figure it out. And as I came across troubles, I would the instructions and, you know, find out what I need to do and what I'm missing.

Artie Martello (00:01:08) - But my girlfriend would probably have me read the instructions first, which I almost never do. But if it's a more complex one, I might do that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:16) - But in general, you know, your your gut feeling is to just kind of get stuck in, see what happens, and then maybe have a look at the instructions down the line when it wants to go horribly wrong.

Artie Martello (00:01:29) - Pretty much. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:01:31) - Go, go. That's fine. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. That's what I kind of think of that as the more active sort of style of, problem solving, isn't it? You know, the Dynamo is, is what we'd call it. And does that kind of tally with the way you approach life, do you generally just get stuck in and figure out how to do things?

Artie Martello (00:01:51) - Yeah, pretty much like, when I started the T-shirt company that I started practice who I was not partnering with a few people, but I had a few other people going through trying to do the same thing as me.

Artie Martello (00:02:04) - And, one of them, she's very organized, like planning everything. And for me, it was more of a matter of just, all right, tonight I'm going to get started. And I just basically jumped right into it and had the business up and running within the day.

Speaker 3 (00:02:19) - Yeah, of course there is a massive.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:21) - Advantage to doing that is, you know, I think, I've certainly been guilty at times of just, you know, fiddling about with things and waiting to try and get everything perfect before I start. And, sometimes you do just need to, to, to jump in. So, I mean, the reason why I ask that question at the start of the the show is because I like people to get an idea of who you are, where you come from, how you approach life, because some of them will be not, in a way, going, yeah, absolutely. You don't need the instructions. You just get stuck in. And, you know, that means some of the things that you do will very much resonate with them.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:02:57) - And some of the things that you do will make people like me who don't get stuck in it often enough, I think. Well, actually, maybe, maybe I should go against my type a little bit, and maybe I should, should be a bit more like that. Just, just get on with it. Duncan. Yeah, that's actually quite good advice. Just get on with it. Start asking some questions. So, Artie, you know, tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Artie Martello (00:03:20) - I'm 38. I used to be a big drinker. I started drinking when I was around 14 years old, but really occasionally, like, a few times when I was 14 to 15, 16, 17 started drinking more. I was working in tech for a while. I stopped that last year and, started my podcast thoughtfully mindless and asking AI as a second podcast and, really just venturing on my own, trying to do my own thing, betting on myself and, enjoying the ride.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:03:53) - Oh. So, so you kind of hinted at the the, the drinking started, like many of us did in those teenage years.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:04:04) - what happened after that? Did, did the did it get a bit heavier after the teenage years?

Artie Martello (00:04:11) - Yeah. So, Let's see in in high school it was all fun just drinking. Early 20s. It was fun drinking, drinking with friends, getting the hangovers but being able to tolerate them, you know, get by and, Then I started traveling for work when I was around 28 years old and. I was working for a company where we would we would go to car dealerships and do implementation. So I'd be implementing some software for them. And. There's not much to do after 5:06 p.m. in most places, you can't go to a zoo, you can't go to a museum, you can't do a lot of that stuff. So it's typically the bar after work and some of these installs I go on, I'd be by myself. And, That's been a lot of time at bars and and drinking with people that drink. And there's some people that drink a lot heavier than me. And, it was just the activity to do.

Artie Martello (00:05:12) - And eventually it just kind of became a bit much. And, the hangovers got worse, and it just. I could feel it in my body and I really like to be productive. I really like to get things done. A few years back, like 5 or 6 years ago, I set the goal of reading a book a week. I read that all most CEOs average a book a week. I was like, I could do that. I started doing that. And then, that kind of got me more mindful of like how I was feeling. And, even when I was just sticking to really drinking heavily on the weekends, that really gets in the way of your goals when you're, when you're waking up with a hangover, the last thing you want to do is read a book. So. Yeah, I got just heavier and eventually decided to stop. I don't think I was as bad as other people I've seen, but I'm happy I stopped when I did.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:06:07) - Yeah, yeah, I do.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:06:09) - You know what? Everybody I've ever interviewed on here, they're always quite pleased that they stopped and away, usually aware that it could have got so much worse. So what method did you use to stop?

Artie Martello (00:06:25) - Yeah. So, It was 2019 when I decided to stop drinking, when I decided I needed to, not when I stopped drinking entirely. And, I went back and forth. You know, I did the whole thing going 30 days without alcohol, all that stuff that doesn't really work long term, and you end up drinking just as heavily when you start drinking again. So I decided at the end of 2019 I would stop drinking. And it was a I knew about. The pandemic had in our way. I was watching and listening to what was going on in China at the end of 2019. And, pretty sure alcohol sales everywhere increased in 2020, and I had no part in that. So kind of an interesting time to quit. I decided I would stop drinking in, 2020. I was like, 2020, I'll be sober.

Artie Martello (00:07:21) - I thought I'd have like one last hurrah at the end of 2019, and my last night of drinking that year was actually, the day before New Year's Eve. So it was the 30th, and, I was hungover that day, and it just decided I didn't want to drink on, New Year's Eve, and. I just kind of quit through willpower. But after I had decided to quit, I did start reading Alan Carr's Quit Drinking. I can't remember the full title Quit Drinking Easy Way or something like that. And we talked about this on my podcast, I. I thought it was kind of a stupid book. like, when I read it, it's really repetitive. Not the kind of book I would typically enjoy. And I use the word brainwashing when we when we spoke before, but it's like it's conditioning, you and I, I knew what was happening. I knew what the book was about, and I decided to just give in to it. Like, you know what? Call it brainwashed and call it whatever you want.

Artie Martello (00:08:24) - I'm gonna let it just. I'm just gonna soak it in. And I don't know how much the book helped me, but it did help me. And, I mentioned on. Our interview before I did end up drinking last year, I decided to see if I can do it moderately and, Didn't work out that well, was moderately a few times, and then eventually it was a really bad hangover and I decided not to again.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:08:53) - That would look, I mean, I'm, you know, I think people should, occasionally experiment with things. I mean, experimenting with alcohol. Probably not that grand an idea, but, I mean, it's, you know, you tried it and it doesn't work. And if nothing else, anybody else out there listening, you might just take it on Artie's word on this that, you know, it starts out moderate, but it gets heavy, and I can get quite boring about the biology of that if you really want. But yeah, I mean, Alan Carr's books are very, very much I mean, I like them and I read a lot as well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:09:37) - So I consider myself to be a bit of a connoisseur of the art of writing. and I agree with you that they're quite repetitive, but and, but I like what I think about them is that's what they're for. That's why they like that. They're written in a very deliberate way. And yeah, you kind of like when you are aware of it, part of you has just got to go, oh, well, let's let's forget about what's going on and what's doing. Let's just let it happen to us. And I think there's so much around that around what we believe about alcohol. You know, it is changing your beliefs to something else going to help you become the person you want to be. Because if it is, then it doesn't really matter so much objectively how true those beliefs are that it matters whether they serve you or not. So do your new beliefs about alcohol serve you better?

Artie Martello (00:10:33) - Yeah, definitely. All right. It's it's a very different experience going to parties and going to events where everyone's drinking.

Artie Martello (00:10:40) - And, I like to think a lot. I like to analyze situations and my own behavior, my own thought processes. And, it's really interesting to watch people drinking. And, making an ass out of themselves and and realizing that it used to be me.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:11:00) - Yeah. Yeah it is. Yeah, it is kind of enjoyable to a point. I mean, I still go to a lot of those same parties. I just leave about 1115. That's to be the point where it all just goes a bit horribly wrong. So that's when I tend tend to leave. Do you, have you have you changed the way you socialize since you stopped drinking? And it's a little.

Artie Martello (00:11:27) - Hard to answer because I stopped drinking when the pandemic happened, and life just kind of changed at that point. But I'll still go to parties. I'll still go to events where people are drinking. I encourage people I don't like, encourage heavily, but I don't want people to not drink because of me. I want them to be themselves, and I don't push my views on alcohol and anybody else.

Artie Martello (00:11:49) - I say, you know, do you? If you're not in the place, if you're handling it well. Do what you want. And, I was at a friend's wedding. It was a blast. And it was. It's kind of like a rave. And, I gotta, I guess I gotta qualify. I do smoke marijuana. Still, I, occasionally dabble in a psychedelic or two, and, We went to this like little rave wedding is awesome and I stayed until the very end of the night. And, pretty sure I was the only one that wasn't drunk by that time. And there was a fun time, and, I had a lot of fun. A different kind of fun than when I was drinking. More controlled, more aware. Mindful. Kind of fun. But I also remember everything from that night, which is, kind of nice.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:12:43) - Yeah. So, you said it was a right. So obviously a lot of music. A lot of dance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a friend.

Artie Martello (00:12:50) - He's a DJ, a great DJ, and, it was kind of like a big party. And, it was a it was the most fun wedding I've ever been to by far. And, it was a good time, but, yeah, I was like, yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:04) - I was trying to my good friend Alec the other day. But, we were talking about dancing and, dancing sober, which, I mean, he still drinks a little bit. but he was saying he goes to these things sometimes, and he could just dance all night, and it's like, you don't need the drink. You just get lost in the music. So that kind of your experience.

Artie Martello (00:13:29) - Yeah, I'm not much of a dancer, though. I produce music and I'll. I don't really DJ, but I like to produce music. I like to make it, but I'm not much of a dancer. I don't have that foot coordination or anything, but I enjoy listening to music a lot, so I can I can listen to dance music all night, I love it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:13:50) - Okay. Oh. So. Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is that what those events were always about? Even when we were drinking, they were actually about the people and the music and, you know, just the general celebration. We just mistook the alcohol as being an essential part of it. Yeah. I always felt.

Artie Martello (00:14:11) - Like I needed to drink to be social and like my personality. I'm right in the middle of a introvert extrovert. So like if I take most tests, it's going to say I'm very slightly introverted or very slightly extroverted. so I'll, I'll be looking at a party in my head. I kind of don't want to go, but the moment I get there, I just get energy from being around people, and I. I just enjoy it. I enjoy the environment and I'll go to a party. Even sober, now that I don't drink, I'll sometimes be the last one to leave. Like, not like, I'll be there until the very end, hanging out with people who are doing things that I don't do.

Artie Martello (00:14:55) - And it's a lot of fun. I get a lot of energy from that, and I really don't need the alcohol for it at all. it's interesting because I feel like the alcohol made me think that I needed it, to be social, but it wasn't the case at all.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:15:10) - Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like there's a little bit of initial reluctance to to go to the event and to enter the event, but once you get there and you get into it, you just enjoy it anyway. Yeah.

Artie Martello (00:15:24) - And without alcohol, there's that whole. Not having a drink in your hand that, especially at first, felt weird. And I still probably I often have a drink in my hand. It's just not alcohol. And, most people don't know that I'm not drinking. I don't make a big deal out of it. People offer me a drink, I'll just say no. I don't go out. No, I'm not drinking. You didn't know this. You know, I don't make a big deal about it or anything.

Artie Martello (00:15:48) - I just, I just don't drink, and. The same people who have known that I don't drink or should know have offered me drinks multiple times and multiple events. So it's kind of funny, but I guess it's kind of a good thing nobody knows.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:16:03) - Yeah, and. I mean. The fact that people forget that you've told them that. You know, drink. I always think of that as being quite a good thing, because it means, you know, we shouldn't really be worried about it. I mean, I know a lot of people are worried about how are they going to talk about it, what are people going to say? What are people going to think? And I do generally tend to say to them, well, like people don't care what you do. People are only interested in one thing and that's themselves. You know, they're just obsessed with you paying their mortgage or you know, what their boss is trying to do, or this odd rash they've got on their bum or something like that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:16:47) - You know, they can't do things whether you drink alcohol or not. It's not that big a thing. So, I mean, that's very much been your experience, I guess, that people just aren't interested enough even to remember.

Artie Martello (00:17:02) - Yeah, I think we all have this, like. Little narcissism or egocentrism that we want to think that everyone is like looking at us or thinking about what we're doing, but everyone is stuck in their own little world because everyone has that where they're thinking about themselves to at least some degree. And, You know, every once in a while somebody offer, you know, hey, we're taking shots. I want to take a shot. Something like that. You might get a, you know, you know, like something like that. But within a couple of hours, they don't remember that you didn't take a shot with them. It's not something that sticks in their mind at all. And especially if they're getting blackout drunk, they're not going to remember too much anyway.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:17:46) - Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:17:46) - Yeah. So I'm kind of interested in this, sort of like stopping drinking during the pandemic because it was sort of like a bit of a reset for everything, wasn't it? So. Yeah. Did you did you find that kind of useful in as far as, you know, almost everything was up for discussion. so did that really, really help you to to avoid alcohol, to stop drinking?

Artie Martello (00:18:17) - Yeah, I felt like it was a. Things were getting kind of serious. There was a lot of tension in the air in general. I like to be clearheaded when I think through problems and stuff like that, and it really helped me. one of the things I remember from alcohol is that confidence that you get that you really don't deserve. like, I'd be making music when I was drinking and. I would have fun the first couple of drinks and eventually it would just I wouldn't be productive at all. I would just be drinking, and then I'd feel like I was making good music because I was drunk and I wasn't making good music.

Artie Martello (00:18:59) - And, It was nice not to have that and to be more clearheaded when the pandemic was going on, because, you know, I was engaging with friends in some, you know, political conversations, contentious conversations. And it was. Nice to. Not make the mistake of getting drunk and saying something that was just stupid or misinterpreting things and just, yeah, just to be clear headed. It was nice.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:19:29) - Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. sort of like, at least once a night, probably about 10:30 every evening. I became a complete genius. And, you know. And you ever think I knew how to solve all of the world's problems? And I was very, very right at that time. And I guess maybe that is part of the problem that we have in society today. There are too many people out there who think they they have the answer to everything. There's too much of this fake confidence, and actually getting to the point where you can say, you know what, I don't actually know everything about this subject, and I am going to swap my certainty for the desire to learn.

Artie Martello (00:20:15) - Yeah. Well, and being sober now, it's interesting because I'll have a drunk person telling me a genius idea that they have, and most of the time it's not too genius.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:20:29) - Yeah. On behalf of everybody I shared my genius ideas with when I was drinking. I would like to apologize to you.

Artie Martello (00:20:40) - Same here.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:20:42) - So, have you found any products that have been really, really useful to help you keep sober?

Artie Martello (00:20:56) - not a product, but meditation. I feel meditation helps me a lot. It it helps me with more than staying sober. It helps me approach a day with some clear headedness. I really like it. I don't do it for an extended period of time. I've talked about meditation on my podcast a bit, and I. I only meditate for about seven minutes a day, and it's not I'm not sitting there for 30 minutes every day or anything like that. And my view on it is I can manage seven minutes a day, although I, I haven't been consistent about it the last few months.

Artie Martello (00:21:30) - but I can be pretty consistent with that. And I think it's better to be consistent with a shorter amount of time then then do it sporadically with longer amounts of time. I think that daily habit matters a lot, so I'd say meditation is probably the biggest thing.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:21:47) - Yeah, yeah. No no, no, that's, that is that is very interesting. I mean, I think a lot of people. Kind of like what you hear many, many people telling you that you should start meditating. But I guess for, for some people, the it seems like a bit too much because we sort of think of meditating as sitting in an ashram for 3.5 hours in total silence, but you're saying you can get it done in seven minutes? And like, honestly, I'm sure most people can find find seven minutes. But do you think also it's kind of really beneficial for you personally because you've got this sort of approach to get started and to do things and it sort of forces you to take a step back, clear the decks, reflect.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:22:35) - Is that part of the benefit of it?

Artie Martello (00:22:38) - Yeah, yeah. Just to kind of get my head in the right space and and, Yeah. I mean, we're we're full of conflicts as human beings, right? Like, we we have contradictions in our own personalities, things that we want that we shouldn't want, things that we do that we shouldn't do. And I find that mindfulness, and especially me, I'm a very impulsive person. when I did actually drink in 2022, when I decided to have a beer one night or a couple of beers. I started off with non-alcoholic beers, and then I was like, yeah, I'm gonna try a beer. And it was very impulsive. Girlfriend had no idea that I was going to do it. Nobody did. And my boss that I was with, he didn't know I was going to. And I feel like meditation helps me kind of tame down that impulsiveness. I don't think I'll ever get rid of it completely, and I embrace it to some degree.

Artie Martello (00:23:37) - Like I like being impulsive to some degree, but.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:23:41) - Yeah, yeah. We, like you say we are full of contradictions, are we not? And that is most of the things that have have driven me to do stupid things. You know, if you actually unpack them, they're often the same things that have driven me to do the things that have worked very well and the things that I'm most proud of. So it it is it more the case that becoming aware of your behavior and your tendencies, that's what's helped you to progress through sobriety, recovery life, as we might call it.

Artie Martello (00:24:17) - Yeah, yeah, 100% actually, when I was like I said, 2019, I had already decided this is what I needed to do, but it didn't happen overnight. It was something that I kind of had to plan for. But I started paying attention to my triggers and what was going through my head. I used to work a 15 to 20 minutes south of where I am. And I'd have a car ride home every day.

Artie Martello (00:24:42) - And there were, two gas stations or one gas station in particular that as I started to approach it, I would realize these thoughts that were going on in my head and like. I had a rather long day today, I worked hard. I deserve it. I should I should stop and get beer. No, I don't need it. No, I should, I deserve it. You know, I'd have these internal dialogues, or these thought processes. And I started to be way more mindful of what was going on in my head. And I really do feel like that helped me a lot. It really helped me. Kind of tackle those. Plot rationales. They, Rationalizations and. Get in control of that. And. I still every once in a while, I'll be like a beer. Sounds nice. You know, I used to like beer quite a bit, and, Paying attention to my thoughts. And really. Being mindful of what's going on there has helped me quite a lot.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:47) - Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:25:47) - That's, that's that's very interesting. Find Beau, and that helped you to stop drinking. Or you stopped drinking and you became more mindful.

Artie Martello (00:25:59) - Probably the first one. Probably. Being more mindful helped me stop drinking because I think, like I mentioned with the reading. I became very aware because I had the goal of reading one book a week, and when you're taking two days off a week, that's like 28% or something. It's a decent percentage of your time, of your week being unable to read because of alcohol. And sometimes it'd be on weekdays, too. Like I might have 3 or 4 beers and I wouldn't be necessarily hungover, but, you know, your mind's not 100% even after, I think one beer. So I think that helps me to be more mindful of just having that goal in mind. Having that kind of in the front of everything. I want to read one book a week and then. I'm struggling because. I can't keep up with this goal too easily because of other decisions decisions I'm making and.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:27:01) - You know, I.

Artie Martello (00:27:02) - I've been around alcoholics for most of my life. Adult life. I had an aunt who was an alcoholic even when I was younger. Didn't have too much contact with her, but. I saw the repercussions. Her kids had to suffer from that. And as an adult, I've been around. I think all of us have been around plenty of alcoholics in our lives and. It's just not how I wanted to model my behavior. So I do think being more mindful helped me to stop drinking rather than just led to mindfulness.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:27:38) - Yeah. Yeah, I, I mean, I think it is sad but true. Basically, whenever I tell somebody what I do, you know, they always say, oh, you should meet Uncle Jeff or they always know somebody don't. And that's, that's, that's the real sad thing that for me just shows you how incredibly pervasive it is that everybody knows somebody. And yeah, that's that sucks. But I think the time thing is very interesting.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:28:11) - And I think the kind of the having another goal that you want to meet and realizing that that alcohol gets in the way of it, that's quite interesting. I mean, I if you ask me, when I was drinking, I would have said I never spend very much time drinking because I worked very hard during the day and I'd start drinking 830, 9:00, something like that, but I'd still drink for three, 3.5 hours a day. And if you add all of that up, it, it it really, genuinely does add up. And when I stopped, it was like all of this time. So, yeah. I didn't read very much. I just wrote a book. But, that idea of, Having this other goal in your life that you wanted to achieve that alcohol was getting in the way of that. Sounds like that was quite a big part of getting sober.

Artie Martello (00:29:04) - Yeah. And I kind of mentioned this with the the two days a week, however percentage of the week that is.

Artie Martello (00:29:10) - I kind of tend to look at things in a as a percentage. So if I can do something and get 10% more efficient or such and such percentage efficiency and, I like to look at things and see what percentage of my potential time or resources something is taking, and. I guess I would have to do with my mindfulness a little bit, but I, I tend to look at almost everything like that. And. 28%. I don't know if that's the actual percentage. but it's a big percent. That's a big chunk.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:29:47) - Yeah, yeah. So, Yeah. Do you manage do you manage a book a week these days?

Artie Martello (00:29:55) - I do, but the way I read is a little bit different. I have ADHD and it's hard for me to just sit through a book and, like, plow through 50 pages. But I'll read 5 to 8 books at a time, and I'll read a chapter of each book each day. Most days, some days I'd take off still, but I'll work through that way.

Artie Martello (00:30:15) - So it usually comes to about a book a week. By the end of the year.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:19) - Yeah, yeah. So you. So if I ask you what you're reading at the moment, you're going to give me, like, half a library, right?

Artie Martello (00:30:29) - Yeah, yeah. I'm ready. Fire! Aim! mistakes were made, but it's not my fault. But it wasn't my fault. mastery by Robert Green. I highly recommend Robert Green's books. And then, 21 laws of marketing. And there's something else I'm reading I can't remember.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:49) - You sure it's not real? Men quip. I don't come back, squirmed Brown.

Artie Martello (00:30:53) - I haven't gotten it yet.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:30:56) - Yeah, But the mistakes were made. But not by me. That's on my list, is it? Should I bump it up a bit and actually get started on it?

Artie Martello (00:31:05) - Yeah, that's a good read. I'm not too far into it, but it it's a lot about cognitive dissonance, so. Yeah, you'd be interested.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:31:14) - Well, yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:31:15) - And I mean, that's like we've kind of touched on that, haven't we? You know, the fact that we spend so much of our life with these, these tensions between these, you know, like two opposing forces within ourselves, you know, like I had a long conversation with somebody the other day and it was just like, very like literally on a knife edge. They love drinking. They hate drinking, they love drinking. They hate drinking. It's, you know, it's like just that whole that cognitive dissonance thing. It's just the the pain in your head caused by trying to cling on to two opposing beliefs. Though sometimes I think there are two opposing beliefs in sobriety, one being that it is getting better and the other being, but there are still problems. is that something you've experienced in in sobriety that it is getting better, but there are still problems.

Artie Martello (00:32:11) - In what? In what sense do you mean? Well.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:14) - I don't know. I mean, did stopping drinking completely solve everything?

Artie Martello (00:32:17) - Oh, hell no.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:32:19) - No, no, there's there's always problems.

Artie Martello (00:32:22) - it did solve a lot of things. Like, I was getting into a lot of fights with my girlfriend. Actually, we had a breakup. in 2018, 2019. We went on a break for a little bit, and all I did was drink. The whole time we were. We were split up, and we knew at that point drinking was a problem. Didn't quit at the time, but once I actually quit, our fights went down significantly and we're going to have fights for the entirety of our relationship, and we plan on getting married and we plan on fighting. But it's much easier to navigate a fight when you're sober and, like when you're not drinking, because drinking just makes you get so. Irrational and. Speaking of that book, mistakes were made, but not by me. One of the things that touched on I knew a little bit about this before.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:33:21) - If you're nice to.

Artie Martello (00:33:22) - Somebody, or if you're mean to somebody and you can look at like bullies in school and stuff like that, if you're mean to somebody, you'll rationalize your behavior.

Artie Martello (00:33:30) - Even if they didn't deserve you being mean to them. You'll start to rationalize your behavior and say, well, they're a nerd and they're this and this and this. If you're nice to somebody, if you do something generous to somebody that wasn't just out of kindness, spontaneously. You'll rationalize it and you'll actually become. You'll see them in a warmer light. Benjamin Franklin actually used this in some of his dealings in politically. He found somebody to be kind of unpleasant, and he started he asked them for a favor, and that person did him a favor, and then they became friends. so it's a nice little psychology hack. If you want to be in someone's good graces, have them do you a small favor, but. It's that cognitive dissonance. Your behaviors actually tend to create the rationalizations about around the behavior. It's not the other way around. It's not always you rationalizing and then doing the behavior. It's the behavior coming first and then you rationalizing later. I think that ties in to alcohol and sobriety quite a lot.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:34:41) - Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure if my wife was here, she would agree with me that our relationship got a lot better when I stopped drinking. And I know what you mean. we still do have arguments. it is true. It is true. We don't quite schedule the men, but yes, they do kind of occur, don't they? and like, honestly, I think you should probably be concerned. I did, I did have one, relationship in my life where you just just never objected to anything, and everything was fine. And it was just, like, the weirdest relationship ever. And it did not last because it's just like, well, it can't all be good. Something must be, you know, like, I know I'm good, but I'm not that good. Something I do must not be quite right. You just like there's gotta be a bit of an argument every now and again. Or you're dating one of the Stepford Wives or something.

Artie Martello (00:35:42) - Yeah, I'm. I'm actually fairly disagreeable.

Artie Martello (00:35:45) - My temperament is fairly disagreeable, which I can stand my ground and and even if everyone's telling me I'm wrong, I can. I can stand my ground. I, I don't think I can handle somebody who's too agreeable. My my girlfriend is agreeable, but I'm like, I like it when she stands up to me and argues with me. And, you know, sometimes she's right quite a bit, actually.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:36:08) - So that's even more annoying, isn't it? But yeah. Yeah, well, I think the thing I like to, what I like to think about life is I am very accepting. I will accept anybody for who they are. you know, you absolutely have a right to, you know, be who you want to be. ultimately, if you want a drink, you know, you have a right to do that, I. I will accept you for that. you know, it's your, opinions that I'm going to disagree with, isn't it? Yeah. And in that sense, I am very, very disagreeable.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:36:43) - But, Yeah, I haven't had an argument yet, so let's go. All right, isn't it? Yeah. Now, one of the things I thought was quite interesting that you said right at the start, about, you know, being in those, in different towns, different cities and working away from home and going to the bar to, to meet people. So, you know, was that part of that was just like genuinely wanting to spend time with other people and the only way you could find other people to spend it with was by going to a bar.

Artie Martello (00:37:17) - Yeah, so it depends if I was alone or not. But I would drink in my hotel room by myself. That's how I drank. And, I think it was a boredom thing. To some degree. I'd bring little things to do. But. After a hard day's work. You don't really have a bunch of energy to do a lot of things to read and stuff like that. I could I can read after a long day of work, but if you drink the night before, it's a little bit harder.

Artie Martello (00:37:46) - So. That's one of those cycles. When you drink is like you kind of feel like crap the next day. So you. I would rationalize drinking because I felt kind of crappy. And, you know, there's that whole thing that the hair of the dog that bit you. Right? And there's truth to that. You do feel better once you start drinking, but I mean, it just compounds over time.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:38:12) - Yeah, yeah, it doesn't even take that much time. But no, I know, I know that one. I see it all the time. You know, I've got stress and pain in my life, so I drink and then of course, after you drink, you, you get the physical effects of it. You get the kind of regret and all of that kind of stuff. And that just gives you more pain and stress in your life. So what do you do? Your solution to pain and stress is drinking and you just end up in a washing machine, don't you? It's just round and round and round and round.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:38:42) - Did that for 20 years. so. But let's get back to that idea of sort of like finding other people and spending time with other people. Is it is that has that been a part of your sobriety? Have you have you developed a kind of sober community, or have you found yourself in different places with different people as a result of not drinking?

Artie Martello (00:39:06) - Honestly? Not really. I have let go of a lot of friendships that were purely based on drinking, so there's a lot of friendships or acquaintance chips or whatever you want to call it. They weren't real friendships, but I have let go of a lot of those friendships. Whereas like the only thing we really had in common was drinking. But I still hang out around with a lot of people who drink and. I just don't partake. And. Some of my friends don't drink too much, so I have a few friends that. They just they just have never had that drive to really drink a lot. They can have 1 or 2 drinks and and they're fine.

Artie Martello (00:39:48) - And so I. I'm attracted to those people quite a bit. My girlfriend, she drinks, but she I, I've only seen her drunk a handful of times in our life and in our 89 years of relationship. And, yeah, I'm drawn to people. The. It's just what I'm drawn to. It's not so much whether they drink or not. It's do they have something intellectually to offer where I can actually connect with them? And I do feel like my connections are a lot more genuine and real now. And whether they drink or not.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:40:29) - Yeah, yeah. So it's not like you've necessarily sought out a lot of people who don't drink. It's more that, you know, you've. You've you've looked for deeper connections on an intellectual level, which are of course, easier to do when alcohol is not involved.

Artie Martello (00:40:49) - Yeah. And. I will say this like I don't cave in to peer pressure like it doesn't happen. a few years back, I've never done cocaine in my life, and I was going to a friend's birthday and I was talking to one of my other friends who was going.

Artie Martello (00:41:07) - And he said. Now we're going to do some coke tonight. And I was like, okay, I won't be joining you for that. I was hanging out with them until like 3 a.m. while they were doing it. But before he was talking to me, saying, oh, we'll get you to do some coke tonight. I'm like, have you ever tried to get me to do something I don't want to do? It doesn't happen. And of course I was right. Like, I just don't cave in to peer pressure. So I think that is a factor in that too. Like if you're if you have a hard time saying no in social situations, like you're probably going to need to change your friend circles a bit more. Like for me, it just isn't a big deal because I can say no all night and I don't feel pressure coming down on me. It just doesn't happen.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:41:54) - No, no, I think, yeah. so if you tell me to, to to do it, I will not do it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:42:02) - I'm more likely to do it if you tell me not to. So. Yeah, I think I'm with you on that one, but I think that that is that is such an interesting point, isn't it? You know, it it comes back to self-awareness. If you know that you are the kind of person that does find saying no to peer pressure difficult, then, then, then it suggests that you should really spend a lot of time around people that aren't drinking. But if you if you're, happier to say, no, I'm not going to do that, then it doesn't really matter who you hang around with, because if you don't have any desire to do coke, it doesn't really matter what everybody else is doing. They can do as much cocaine as they like. It doesn't really affect you, does it?

Artie Martello (00:42:47) - Yeah. No, not too much. maybe when I was younger, I'd be more. I'm not going to say I'm not susceptible to peer pressure at all. Like, if somebody if there's something that I am on the fence about and there's peer pressure around it, probably be more inclined to do it.

Artie Martello (00:43:01) - But if my mind is set, like if I don't want to do something, peer pressure won't matter at all. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:43:08) - Good luck to you. That's, that's what we'd say. So, I just wanted to dig a little bit into, marijuana. So do you think that's been an important part of your sobriety? Has it as it helped you, or is it something, that's entirely separate, I suppose.

Artie Martello (00:43:33) - I think that helped me at first. Early on in my life when I was drinking, I always had a tendency to want something to, quote unquote, take the edge off, right? Like I wanted something to not be sober and. That's a whole nother bag in itself of why that might be, but. I think having marijuana to. I guess, unwind or, you know, I have back pain. So it does help with back pain a little bit to having that kind of helped. but eating helped like too. So I mean, like a lot of people, when they stop drinking, they gain weight because they start eating more food.

Artie Martello (00:44:21) - And, it's kind of like you're not indulging in one thing, so you indulge in another. And, Yeah, it's helped, but I, I try to be pretty mindful of my usage with that too. Like, I'm not I'm not somebody who's waking up using marijuana first thing in the morning. For me it's. Some days during the week and it's at night after I've done everything that I need to do that I can't continue doing once I'm in that state.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:44:51) - Yeah. So I mean, I think food is it's exactly the same thing, isn't it? You know, it's about about finding this balance. You know, if you're just, if you're just going to replace alcohol for chocolate chip cookies, then you will be miserable. And I know this has somebody who basically replaced chocolate chip cookies, for the alcohol. It didn't really work, but. as you say, if you're if you're mindful about it, if you don't do it automatically, you know, the moment you get out of bed without really thinking about it, if you do it when it is appropriate and it serves a particular need, then it can be helpful.

Artie Martello (00:45:36) - Yeah. And I, I would just want to clarify here, I do not recommend marijuana to anyone who's under 25 years old. You and we're our brains are always developing, but it's particularly bad to introduce that to your brain at a younger age. I smoked when I was. 16 or 17 or probably 15 for the first time, but I really didn't use it much until my later 20s, and I think that served me well. And, I'm sure there's some people who would look at me for using marijuana, and now I'd be like, oh, you could. Be better without it. And probably true, but I do it in a controlled and responsible way, I believe.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:20) - Yeah. No, I so I, I know there are a lot of people out there who, who are somewhat judgmental about the use of marijuana in sobriety. And it's not proper sobriety, though ironically, they often do it whilst they're smoking cigarettes, which doesn't seem to make too much sense to me, but yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:46:41) - I mean, I think at the end of the day, you've got to find your own path, haven't you?

Artie Martello (00:46:45) - Yeah, yeah, I had an ex-girlfriend. Who? She would distinguish between. And sobriety from alcohol, with sobriety from everything else. she would call it clean and sober if she wasn't doing anything, and sober if she was doing other things, but not alcohol. I think I just kind of tricking herself. But, you know, some people might rationalize it that way.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:47:10) - Yeah, but I think. Well, I don't particularly like the word sober, despite the fact that it's in the name of my podcast. But I mean, ultimately it's a synonym for boring, isn't it? Sober? That's like, that's the problem with the word. And I don't get the impression that you live a life of boredom.

Artie Martello (00:47:30) - Yeah. No, I mean, some people might say so. Like, I reading is really boring to some people. And I it's one of my favorite things to do.

Artie Martello (00:47:39) - But I don't think I live a boring life at all.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:47:43) - No, no. Who are these people that don't like reading? Send them around. Yeah I might. Yeah, I do, I do, I do like reading and, I do like that that book of week sort of statistic, I was, I was getting to a group of authors the other day and they were, they were writing business books and they were like, you know what? Before you decide to to write your book, the thing you should do is read an absolute ton because they want to write business books that are going to be read by CEOs, and these people are reading a book a week. So if you're if you're not reading a book a week at least, and you're writing these books like, you shouldn't be like, you shouldn't be giving advice to these people, you should be getting advice from them because they know more about the world than you do, because they're better read than you are. I was not enormously popular that evening for some reason.

Artie Martello (00:48:36) - So do you read a lot? You don't. You do or don't read a lot?

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:48:39) - Oh, I don't know. It's it's a bit like, you know, the whole Californian sobriety thing, right? Do I read a lot or do I just listen to a lot of audiobooks? Does that count?

Artie Martello (00:48:50) - You know, I heard somebody say that audiobooks isn't reading, but I do consider it reading. I, I like physical books, but, yeah, like, some people are dyslexic. They can't read very well, but they want to absorb the information. And I think you actually absorb more hearing than reading.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:49:07) - Yeah, I like physical books. Always keep one handy, for some reason. Anyway, so, Yeah, I think it's it's kind of interesting. I, I'm, I probably read 30 or 40 physical books a year. Probably half of those are sci fi that I read before I go to bed. Half of those are, you know, stuff related to to what I do. and then I probably listen to.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:49:38) - 6080 audiobooks a year. Whenever I'm in a car, doing the washing up, doing the shopping, I always have those plugged in and I think I definitely absorb more when I'm reading. But if I really like something, I put it on the headphones and read it at the same time. Do I get double points for that?

Artie Martello (00:49:58) - You should. I can't read like that. I can't listen to something because I'm. I'm not like going word for word when I read. Usually it's kind of like I kind of go back and forth with the words. It's kind of weird. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:13) - Yeah. Okay. So, any any recommendations of books about sobriety that people should, should be reading?

Artie Martello (00:50:25) - I Alan Carr's Easy Way to Stop Drinking. That's the only sobriety book I've ever really.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:50:32) - Okay, okay, I don't see I think anything anything that's got a lot of, So the the psychology like thinking fast and slow. You must have read that.

Artie Martello (00:50:43) - No, I haven't read that. I read a few of Jordan Peterson's books.

Artie Martello (00:50:48) - I think those are really worthwhile. His 12 rules for life is a good book. actually Maps of Meaning, his book Maps and Meaning is probably my favorite book. I read a lot of, Dark history too. So, like. Yeah. Gulag archipelago. Right.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:07) - Wow. I mean, yeah. What's your psychology? I'm not sure how.

Artie Martello (00:51:11) - Philosophy, stuff like that.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:13) - Yeah. I'm not sure quite how Solzhenitsyn would be, brought into the sobriety world. But there's a way. There's a way. Anyway, look, before I let you go, I have to ask you about the meatballs. So have you ever had the Ikea meatballs?

Artie Martello (00:51:32) - Ikea meatballs? Yeah. No I haven't.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:51:35) - No. Okay, so, my theory on the Ikea meatballs is that they aren't very nice. They don't taste very good. Nobody really likes them. It's just when you go to Ikea, you feel you have to eat them because you're at Ikea. And this is basically my really bad segway into the question, what is the one thing that everybody in sobriety should do but nobody really wants to do?

Artie Martello (00:52:01) - Yeah.

Artie Martello (00:52:02) - Nobody wants to do. I don't know how to answer that. I'd say. I'd say meditate, but some people want to meditate.

Speaker 3 (00:52:19) - Yeah, I like meditation.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:52:21) - That's God's good advice. That's good advice. And I think it probably ticks the box of something that a lot of people, have some resistance to. So, so we'll do that. So, where can people find out more about you?

Artie Martello (00:52:37) - Yeah. So I have my podcast offline mindless. It's on all the, you know, podcast streaming platforms. I have asking I where I, I talk to I chat bots that's also on all podcast streaming platforms. you can find me on Twitter at TM convos, Instagram at Thoughtfully Mindless. And then if you want to see the shirts that I make, you can go to Fractal Zoo Dot net and make some, I'm obsessed with fractals and, and like, psychedelic art and stuff like that. So there's a lot of. Unique t shirts that are animals and fractals that are kind of the main theme of it.

Artie Martello (00:53:13) - And yeah, that's about it.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:15) - Yeah, I will obviously we'll put all of those in the show notes at flatpack sober. Com but Marty, thank you very much for joining us this evening. It's been fun.

Artie Martello (00:53:24) - Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Duncan.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:33) - All right, there we go. I've stopped one of the recordings. was that all right? Did you enjoy that?

Artie Martello (00:53:38) - I did, yeah. What do you think? I mean, I'm I'm interested in feedback to you because I don't do the interviews.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:53:47) - I done. Yeah, that was kind of interesting. I mean, it's like. You know, it's your take, isn't it? And that's all we can ever really, really ask for. And, I mean, I guess if I was gonna sort of talk about sobriety in, in one sentence, it would be, it it absolutely sucks to say it, but you've got to find your own way to do it. And yeah, if you try and do it like somebody else, you will be utterly and totally miserable.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:54:19) - That said, of course there are many great ideas that people can steal from from others. And I, I, I find that idea of kind of like having a another aim or goal in life as a way of supporting your sobriety. I think that's really, really powerful.

Artie Martello (00:54:37) - Yeah. Yeah, I agree, I think that helped me so much. if. So a lot of people don't have goals, right? Like a lot of people, they have a job and they go to their job. And then after work they want to drink, watch TV, do things that are just. Not thinking. They don't want to think, they don't want to do anything. And and some people, a lot of people are. Don't want to, They don't want to improve their lives. They just want to continue. And I always want to continue. I want to improve constantly.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:55:19) - Yeah. Yeah I mean it's one of those things it's like I don't think it's, it's that bad sitting down in front of the TV every now and again.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:55:29) - It's just yeah no don't make a full time job out of it. Like yeah. Too many people seem to think that, you know, Netflix will collapse if they don't watch everything on it.

Artie Martello (00:55:40) - Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to find things that, give you meaning, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:55:49) - Absolutely. Look cool. Well, what we will do is, we will email you when the episode comes out. It will be a couple of months, at least because we got a loan in the bank already. I got a bit obsessed with it.

Artie Martello (00:56:10) - can I ask you a question about that? Does. Because I, I'll record in advance, but I start to get anxiety if I'm more than a month out, like I was six weeks out with a few interviews recently. And, it gives me anxiety because I guess with me specifically because I'm talking about some things might be relevant to the time. Right? So it's like, I don't want to be talking about something like having a conversation about AI with a tech expert and then release in two months, and the technology has changed a bunch or a political thing, and it changes a bunch.

Artie Martello (00:56:46) - Yeah. Does that give you any like.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:56:48) - No, not really, because, I don't we don't tend to talk about anything that's really political. That's really particularly topical. and I sort of like, I like to try and cop out and say it's timeless wisdom, isn't it? But no, I, I think. I mean, I guess if we had another pandemic tomorrow, I might have to rethink some of the what I was going to release. But that's true of like we plan our content quite far in advance anyway. So the stuff based around my new book, it's pretty much scheduled until the end of the year, just because we generated enough to give us a year's worth of content deliberately so that it would, yeah, be a lot less effort. And I guess with that you kind of think, well, if something major happens and we have to sort of change gears, we have to change gears. But yeah. Yeah. No, it that doesn't that doesn't bother me at all.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:58:00) - We have got a little bit further ahead than, I guess the only thing that bothers me is sometimes with people they, you know, they come on to promote their stuff and they want to promote their stuff. And I get that. And, you know, you're not selling anything sitting on my hard drive, are you? It's kind of. Yeah. You got to get it out there.

Artie Martello (00:58:20) - Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's. I mean, that's part of being a podcasters. It's the agreement, right? People get to promote themselves for part of the podcast. But I've had I had one interview specifically where it was a shorter interview. Mine are two hours and she's like, I only have 50 minutes. And she was doing it at work. And I'm like, okay, this this doesn't feel like a conversation so much as just you want to promote it and get it over with, and that's not what I'm after. It can be a little frustrating.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:58:50) - Yeah. I mean, it's it is.

Duncan Bhaskaran Brown (00:58:55) - Well, I mean, I think of it. Yeah. It is a deal, isn't it? It's like I want to promote and you want content, and we need to find this happy kind of, like balance in the middle, don't don't we? But for my money, I think, like, if I just sound like I know what I'm doing and I'm a nice guy, that's that's way better promotion than me. Kind of like banging on about my book. well, yeah.

Artie Martello (00:59:20) - If you're just talking about what you like. If I were just on your podcast, like, definitely mine. If you got to listen to thoughtfully mine, like, it's like, why would anyone listen? Because I. I haven't helped you create any good content. So it's like. So I just want, like, what's the appeal of me to. For people to be like, oh yeah. So this guy talked about his podcast for 45 minutes. I'm going to go listen to it now. Like, I don't know anything about him.

Artie Martello (00:59:46) - Like I'd rather just be me. And you know, if people like my personality, like they can go listen to my podcast. If not, no big deal.