Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
Join us as we dive deep into the world of digital transformation with real-life stories of breakthroughs and challenges from the front lines. In each episode, we'll sit down with industry experts, AND Digital consultants, and other influential figures in the technology space to hear about their personal experiences of leading digital transformation initiatives.
We'll explore what worked, what didn't, and the lessons learned along the way.
Being a Digital Leader - the Good, Bad AND Ugly of Digital Transformation
The Tech Transformation
Join Stuart Walters from Parcel2Go and James Locker from AND Digital as they share a personal journey of digital transformation.
In this podcast episode, Stuart shares the ups and downs of integrating technology into the company amidst the challenges of the pandemic. From scaling databases to fostering a collaborative work culture, Stuart's story highlights the importance of continuous learning and adaptation in the digital age. Tune in to discover how Stuart's determination and drive turned Parcel2Go into a future focussed tech company.
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Welcome to our podcast being a Digital Leader the good, bad and ugly of digital transformation. I'm sure everyone's heard a lot about digital transformation and unless you've done it, it can be quite scary and seem difficult to conquer. That's why we've set up this podcast so that we talk to people who have been there, done that. Not only do we hear about how they did it and what they did, but how they felt doing it. Let's begin. My name is Simon Holden, I'm the hub exec for Scotland and New Yorkshire and I'll be your host for today.
Speaker 1:And today I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast Stuart Walters, cio for Parsels to Go, and James Locker, club exec at Andigital. Today we'll be talking about the journey to becoming a technology focused business. So let's jump in. Stuart is a commercially focused and innovative executive leader and chief information officer with a background in financial services, travel and e-commerce, investing in building and running multi-skilled onshore and offshore technology organizations and supplier relationships. With a powerful combination of a technical background and 20 plus years of senior executive experience, stuart has the vision tempered and understanding of the art of the possible to lead teams in today's tech centric world. Very impressive, stuart.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm expecting a lot from today. James is a club executive at Andigital and is a people and commercially focused leader in digital, with more than 15 years experience driving cultural and transformational change in high growth organizations. He has worked in professional services for the last 10 years and has a background in delivery leadership in a number of different markets and industries, including media and gaming, financial services, utilities and commodities. Equally impressive, james.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much, sam, great to be here. Thank you, good stuff.
Speaker 1:All right, stuart. Yes, I'd be lovely to hear a bit about Parsels to Go and how you came to find yourself there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, I started off with a call from a search company Lots of these things do and so I learned a bit more about the opportunity and just was interested in where I didn't really come across Parsels to Go, to be honest and I was interested in where it sat in the value chain of logistics. I thought it was quite an interesting e-commerce related business that was clearly geared with the growth in e-commerce in the global growth as well as the UK growth, and so that interested me. I was just sort of got an e-commerce background so I had a discussion with the then CEO, james Greenbury, and it was actually during lockdown, so my interview with James was on a park bench in Cheltenham.
Speaker 2:So it looked a bit weird to men of a certain age on a park bench, but anyway, yeah, so we had our first sort of socially distanced chat about it and, yeah, I just thought it was a very interesting proposition. The company had grown extremely quickly and High Growth Company is kind of interesting to me, so I think tech can play a really, really important role in high growth businesses. So it wasn't exactly that place that we found Parsels to Go. So those conversations went on and rested history.
Speaker 1:As I said, and now you're there. What is it that you love about what you do? What's great about the job that you have?
Speaker 2:Something that's always really rewarded me is being part of a business that has a sort of strong place in its value chain. It has a strong value proposition in its marketplace, whatever that is Whether that's financial services, travel, I don't really care, as long as it's got a valuable role to play, one that's experiencing growth, but one that has not yet, maybe, completely leveraged technology or data, where there's real opportunity to take this fundamentally sound business and say, well, let's take it to the next level, let's really leverage some whether it's software engineering, whatever it is to actually really yeah take it on to its next index, next growth phase.
Speaker 2:So that's what I saw in Parsels to Go and that's what's happening.
Speaker 1:I'm going to bring you in shortly, james, don't worry, I'm not ignoring you.
Speaker 3:Absolutely not no problem.
Speaker 1:So, when you started the journey in terms of Parsels to Go and taking it to be a technology focused business, in terms of, if we use the framework of good, bad and ugly in terms of the journey there, what was good that you really wanted to keep already there. What was bad, which maybe is a bit harsh, but that you wanted to kind of get rid of and get us in and what needed to really work.
Speaker 2:So what was really strong that is still strong about the business is everybody is really detailed understanding of the mechanics of the business, how it makes money, because it's actually quite a complicated business. There's lots of players in the logistics and sort of Parsels to every space and we've all heard of the big couriers, but there are lots of other sort of players, sort of you know noses in the troughs, so to speak. But so it's quite an intermediary focused business end to end and everyone there really knows how it works. And that's sort of easier said than done.
Speaker 2:But, including the tech guys. So I worked in another business where the tech guys know the tech but they haven't got a huge sort of contextual awareness of the business. That's not the case across the Go.
Speaker 2:So you've got some people who really get it and that's very, very powerful. And I think that's a huge strength of ours is that we have those people who know the all the most commercials of the business and the tech side of the business. So that's a great combination, very powerful and I think to you know, to sort of digitally transform any business, you need both those things right, super important. So that's definitely the good. As I've said, we have volume we had. You know, we play a valuable part in the sort of value chain.
Speaker 2:I think sort of bad was no, no real sort of sense of prioritization across the business in terms of delivery right, loads of things they want, loads of opportunity and things to do, most of them, you know, valuable, but no real sense of sort of roadmap or priority. So so the team, the tech team, were there's a little context switching going, going on, this week's priority one was maybe different to last week's or next week's, so that. So I think allowing people to focus on something, actually do it end to end and deliver it was a was a high priority need. People were getting quite sort of punch drunk with just constantly switching. So that was that needed to change. I think the ugly was not much written down, a lot of stuff in people's heads. You know absolutely the result of a fast-growing business. Classics, or entrepreneur, owner of operated business as it originally was grew very quickly. It just wasn't time to do all the sort of nice software engineering things. Everything just had to be delivered and run and cope with volume.
Speaker 3:So I think, quite understandably, the sort of the documentation, if you like, or the just running a few bits down to taking it back to you, it's really really interesting as a couple of bits in there that I think certainly resonate in terms of problem statements that you know we encounter of working with various clients, and it's certainly not unique to parcel, to go by any stretch, and certainly not unique to the industry, you know we find that across multiple markets and areas of which we work and prioritization is the word that comes up an awful lot.
Speaker 3:How do we prioritize, though?
Speaker 3:There's one thing that there's sort of a jungle in a priority and people working on different things and context switching and so on and so forth, but I think what it stems back to when digital transformation has done really well is being very clear on how to prioritize, and I think the way in which you do that correctly is but having communication, and a consistent communication that's being driven from the very top, so it's not the very top person that's having to make that priority call all the time.
Speaker 3:Anybody can make that priority call because it ties in, it aligns, it's got a thread result back to what enables us to hit what it is that we're all trying to achieve together, and I think that's one of the key things when we talk about transformation everybody facing the same way, and prioritization then becomes really easy. And I think the other thing that really struck a chord with their studio as well is, in terms of what you referenced, the ugly thing, things being stuck in people's head, and again, that is certainly not unique, and we talk a lot about what that really means, and we talk about that in terms of knowledge, and we almost term knowledge as being a really powerful thing, and it is powerful if it's used in the right way. If people cling on to knowledge, then it becomes detrimental to the business, and that willingness to share knowledge and impart knowledge on others is where you get a real strength of business, and that comes with cultural evolution towards the transformation that you're trying to reach, and I think that's been crucial on your journey as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think the prioritization piece wasn't. It was harder than it sounds.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was hard, and it's easy to say we prioritize commercially, which we do, which most people do right. It's either something strategically important for the sort of three year plan or five year plan or whatever, or it's just worth a lot of money when we don't do it. We're a very, very commercially focused business, as many are, so that sounds all very straightforward. Let's look at the business case and easy right, because it's not that easy and I don't think anyone's perfect at it and I think chasing perfection on that probably isn't sensible, your perfection being sort of enemy of the good and all that but I think we're in a reasonably good place. I think we've.
Speaker 2:What we've really done with Anne, which has been central to this, is has been to put in a sort of what we call ways of working, some process it everyone hates the word process, but just some framework actually it's probably a better word which where we can reference certain points which we need to get to in our prioritization process which everyone can sort of everyone understands, everyone's been taught about and everyone's learned about. We say we need to get to this step and then we go on to the next step. And as long as we get to those steps and they're simple and there aren't too many of them, then we know we're in a good place. It's something everyone can reference in the prioritization process and that works pretty well for us. And I think we've really tailored it to our business.
Speaker 2:It has absolutely not out the box, it's a. It's absolutely sort of bespoke to us, to our sides, to our culture, everything else. We didn't want to become a sort of footsie 100 business overnight In terms of sort of bureaucracy, and that definitely wouldn't have worked. But what we have is a sort of it's a framework which we can use now to drive prioritization, and it works pretty well. There's always things that creep around the edge, right, that's life, life gets in the way, kind of thing. But yeah, it's a framework. No, awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1:If I we're talking about the journey and I presume tech has been quite a key part of that journey, a parcel to go what are the changes you've had to make to tech? What's the strategy you did for that? Why and how do you do it In terms of the platform you've built and how it's evolved?
Speaker 2:So I guess we had really three things we were going after. One was the ways of working piece, which I've talked about, to make sure the whole business was aligned in terms of how we were prioritized, the road map we were creating, sharing a road map. Everyone knew what was coming and what was current, et cetera, et cetera. So that's really important. The ways of working is important.
Speaker 2:Two was we just had a backlog of work we needed to get through, so we needed more bums on seats, essentially to help us do that, and some skills, some particular skills we were after. And third was, I guess, imparting some of those skills to our own people. So those are the three critical parts really of the and relationship Was the process, the skills transfer and just helping us get through a lot of work. And I think the other piece on top of that no-transcript which the results allowed us to do was we knew we had some platform engineering work to do. So, as I said, the business grew. It was growing very quickly, especially during COVID. Covid absolutely saw record growth because everyone was stuck at home sending and receiving parcels.
Speaker 2:So absolutely momentous growth. And of course, the volumes on the platform were increased hugely plus some other, plus some specific white label deals we put in place, plus some of the UK couriers. Couriers has generated huge volume because they're all down on the common platform. So we were in a place where we had massive volume growth and the platform work, engineering work, had taken it back. So we had some database not challenges, but they would have become challenges if we hadn't addressed them. We had a lot of, quite a lot of old code which we needed to get rid of, replace and some refactoring code as well. So again, none of that had really been given any sort of timing or attention.
Speaker 1:yet exactly so we need to do that.
Speaker 2:So we have been doing that for the last 12 months as a sort of ring fenced part of the team. We said, right, this is the platform we need to do. It's not everything, not a believe in replatforming, so to speak. I think those projects really work because they're always too big. But we've zeroed in on some specific parts of our platform we knew needed that love and attention. Otherwise we would have got into performance issues and volume issues. So that's what we focused on and we've made a lot of progress on last 12 months to deliver those specific pieces and to deliver some tooling actually, which will make our future growth and expansion easier. So we want to drive more with data, not with code. So that's a big part of our strategy is to create sort of softer, configurable sites rather than coding everything from the ground up, right? So yeah, so platform is about volumetric capability, it's about sort of currency of software and it's about some tooling Very important part.
Speaker 3:And I think one of the things that, when we think back, looking back in time in sort of setting the partnership up between parcel to go and hand, was about.
Speaker 3:You know, we were very clear on what both sides wanted to achieve within that partnership and the time frames from which we wanted to achieve those set outcomes. And I think that was important for two reasons One, that we set it up in that way, so we knew what we were trying to do, where we're trying to head, but secondly, how we were able to communicate that as well. So all the people that were involved in all the changes that you've just spoken about, stuart, there, knew why it was happening, knew that the business needed to evolve, it needed to grow, it needed to grow at pace and that was the reasons for doing those, so that they could get behind it from the very beginning. And I thought that was we shouldn't I don't think we should ever downplay how critical that was or how well it was done, because it really sets things up from the very beginning for something that looks towards success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and maybe let's expand on that a bit then that cultural side and that need to take people on the journey. And it's kind of easy to say, but how did you actually do that? How did you bring the team with you? Were you clear about those kind of stepping stones to get there? How did you start the process?
Speaker 2:So big question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can remember it, my first couple of weeks at the company, I got the tech team in a room and I said, basically, what do you need? What are the pinch points, what are the friction point? What can make your life kind of better, happier, whatever easier? And one of the resounding answers was more people so we just haven't got enough people to do everything that's being asked of us and prioritization. So we covered the prioritization better thing. Those were the two resounding wants and frustrations in the tech team and obviously they're closely allied right, the two things.
Speaker 2:So then we started to talk about numbers of people and we arrived at sort of I can't remember exact number now, but I think we said it was 12 or 14 or 16 or something like that would be ideal. And I think all the time those guys were thinking about just going out and hiring 10, 12, 14 more permanent members of staff, which wasn't really my sort of plan. So then I started talking about potential partnership and then they started to get nervous. It was about thoughts. Their thoughts went to oh, he's going to outsource everything. So, yeah, it went completely, which was not surprising when I first started talking to and I said that one of the most important things here I've done this in previous companies is we've got to have technical respect from we're a win. Technical respect from my team on day one, literally day one. You've got less than two days to do this. First impressions are everything here, absolutely everything, and and that is definitely true Otherwise you run out of road very quickly and they're willing list to adopt my guy's one of this. It roads very quickly but that worked well, I have to say. I remember we had two cloud engineers from and working with our cloud team and we had a lot to do in our cloud environment and that worked very well. I remember us talking to our internal chap at the time, james, and he said actually these guys are very good, he's, he's really good technical guy and so I thought that's praise indeed and that was kind of the start of it.
Speaker 2:And then we started we slowly on board it software developer, software engineers and it worked very well. I think we there were seldom do we have to either swap anybody out or move anybody around. It was. It worked better than actually thought it would. I thought there'd be more bumps and the rest.
Speaker 2:We started with a very in a very nervous place on the part of the internal team. We ended up in a very good place and then we got to a place where they said, well, you know, do I really have to go? And we're kind of like these guys and we're great to work with. Yeah, they're. They're real humans, they're real people, not just contractors. And the blended team thing, in my view, was the only way this would ever work Right. I did not want separate teams because that just creates an exclusivity and a separate separation is just so unhelpful. I remember at the time, the board, because we had to put the whole partnership and transaction through the board. And we're talking through and I said so, obviously, I'm going to be in, obviously, and they're going to be in separate teams and we can measure their output and what's our return on our dollar, every dollar spent with, and that's where actually it's not how it's going to work, because that might give us an easy, easily measurable from a human perspective.
Speaker 2:Exactly, but actually it just will get very little value out of it. It'll be very disruptive. We'll have us and them for the next two years. It's so unhelpful, so that's not what we did. So, yeah, so that the blended team piece is essential, absolutely essential, and that winning that technical respect I think it's the right term is also central to success.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think when those teams land, there's an immediacy around what they need to do and respect absolutely. And I think respect probably comes in two forms. There's one credibility form and making sure these guys are credible at what they do, and hopefully we've showcased that and there's an abundance within our teams that we were able to bring in. There's a second thing in making sure that we do that in an entirely non-threatening way, because naturally, when we're walking in and new through the door with clients, there is a potentially formed cynical concept as to why those people are here. And you just do it a little bit and we can offshore everything. These guys are here to take our jobs and, again, that's not uncommon. So we have to make sure that we bring not only the right technical people in but the right cultural people into our organizations that are able to blend with your teams correctly.
Speaker 3:So, and that's where the partnership is so important as well, from a value and principles perspective, in terms of recruiting the right sort of people on both sides of the partnership. And again, I think that's one of the things that we got. We got really right in terms of the people that were brought in to the engagement.
Speaker 2:I think I've got to give full credits to my team as well here, because I mean, yes, the end team did it absolutely correctly, but the winners to adopt it, I think was actually high and you put yourself in there she was. I was a new boy as well. I've been there two years, right, so it's over.
Speaker 2:So some of these guys have built this stuff from almost day one I'm actually from day one and you know they built it, looked after it, grown it etc. And they felt it obviously a huge sense of responsibility for it and it was kind of theirs and I completely get that and I was waiting and waiting all these new guys and they were understandably nervous but I think they very quickly saw it was the right thing to do. It answered our resource question, which was one of their first wants right, so it kind of ticked that box. So yeah, so it just it just worked, but full credit.
Speaker 2:I think, to both sides actually.
Speaker 1:Definitely a two way street Partnerships about as.
Speaker 2:Tis Absolutely right.
Speaker 3:And I think the other thing that we perhaps just didn't touch upon is the language shift that I know we speak about, stuart, in terms of the recognition that it might have previously been an IT department to one that becomes certainly more tech led and I think quite a bit remember the phrasing that we use within the strategic intent of the partnership but certainly it's on that journey to be more tech led, and doing things like this today start to point towards that, in terms of talking about that process, talking about the journey, talking about future tech that enables the greater good and the growth which is great. Just those small, subtle language changes you don't realize you're doing, you know it becomes a subconscious thing, but you know that when you, when you pinpoint them, those are make what make the real difference sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean I say we're moving from from being a business to which happens to have an IT department, to a tech centric, tech led business. We don't recall it but and that's a big shift and I never used the term IT, it is a 90s term and everyone at P2G would tell you how obsessed I am with that but yeah, I think it's. It's moving from that order taking environment right where the guys in tech or order takers to actually be being part of the business and actually being part of creating, inventing and delivering solutions. That sounds really I cliche, I know, but it is about that and it's actually about also the business having at least some understanding of what it's what, what it's like to build some what for you, sometimes quite complicated software. I don't want everybody to be a software engineer but at least I've done that sending the process has helped.
Speaker 2:Not everybody is interested in it. There's an expectation to be, but at least to be aware of it, I think is a is actually really helpful for the whole business.
Speaker 1:Can we explore that a bit in terms of how how welcoming is a view of peer group, the execs kind of being, to the transformation that you've taken your team through and how that's impacting the business?
Speaker 2:So I think whatever one loves is the roadmap, it's, it's we have. So that's our, basically our sort of master Gantt charts, all of that. I know Gantt charts don't really work in Agile world.
Speaker 1:Everyone still loves a Gantt chart. We'll delete that.
Speaker 2:we'll delete it Especially especially stakeholders, right, agile is difficult thing to manage with the stakeholders, but so everyone loves the, the sense of visibility that that gives us and that's what it's all about. It's about okay, this is what we're working on the board, love it. Everyone just looks at it and goes, okay, I get it. That's after that and you know it's pretty simple stuff, right, but that didn't exist before. It's important to know that. So that's probably sort of a sort of visibility, you know, sort of crowd pleasing point of view, one of the one of the key things, simple as it sounds, but of course to get to that there's a lot of work that delivers that asset. So I think that was a that was important in in sort of winning over my peers and the exec team and other key stakeholders in the business.
Speaker 2:I think you know there was resistance to the ways of working to start with, and we had. We went round the block a few times on iterating how the process would work, how detailed it was, how involved everyone needed to be in it, and there was a big gap in the business before I joined and that we didn't have any sense of business analysts or product analysts and that role just did not exist. So there was nothing that sat between a commercial leader and a software developer, Nothing. So that was a direct conversation which, you know, mostly often, if not all the time, was a very high level conversation, and software engineers or developers were expected just to sort of understand what the detail was or make it up.
Speaker 2:Basically, of course, half the time I mean it was it was wrong. So we ended up building stuff more than once and it was frustrating for both parties. I mean it just didn't really work. So what he did work is things were delivered, but we tended to focus on one or two things at a time. There was no the sense of sort of multitasking across the team was very limited, because everyone was trying to understand what it was that we're trying to do, but the business just wanted them to start writing code. That was the ultimate measure of success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are we?
Speaker 2:writing code. So so we introduced the product analysts through and we have some very, very good PAs from and who really transformed that. They were a really key part of our ways of working embedding in the business Because business stakeholders as well. They immediately sat back a bit from the sort of process side of it when the PAs came on board. They could see there were smart people. They really got it and understood our business pretty quickly. They could see the value add that that role brought to the business. It was huge because it completely just bridged this gap. Developers liked it because they suddenly knew that they were being given, you know, epics and stories to work with, which is wow, this is great. And the business liked it because stuff was well.
Speaker 2:It took a bit more time to tease out the detail. Once it was teased out and written down, they could kind of not sit back and do nothing, but there was a much higher chance that we're going to be successful and we were first time. So, yes, there was a bit of process involved. I think that was immediately. It was a bit of a sort of sit back moment, but the value the PAs brought and our sort of yeah, our rate of success with building the right thing. Just proved it very quickly. Proved very quickly it was a right thing to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 3:I think that's a general misconception actually not necessarily within the industry itself, but perhaps more outside the industry that when we think about digital we immediately think about engineers writing code and all of those professional skills or behavioral skills, those analytical skills that sit around that that ultimately make the code successful. We should never miss and not just in terms of the end result, but the processes that you're going through during that period to win the trust of the people that may have been somewhat skeptical about what you're about to embark on from the beginning, because they can start to see the results very quickly. So, yeah, definitely a misconception I think that we have more broadly at times, but, as I say we did have to iterate the ways of working a couple of times.
Speaker 2:I would say that was actually a really good process to go through, because I guess expecting everyone to agree with that, agree with the first iteration, was this never going to happen, right, that's a big ask and unrealistic and maybe you actually want challenge, right, and that is actually ended up being a really healthy.
Speaker 2:It's exactly what happened. And one big I'm going to mention Bear from Anne, because she was she was so dogged in her perseverance with this. It was really great to see she would never take no for an answer. She keep coming back, I think, more and more workshops with people hearing the feedback. She was great at taking feedback on board, feeding that into the next iteration, which would obviously be slightly different. And eventually we got there and it didn't take a huge amount of time, just took some effort from people, but we got to a good place, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brilliant. And so you just mentioned the roadmap in your previous answer. How are you delivering against that? Are you halfway through or is it a never ending? There's always stuff to do. Where are you in the journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of a rolling beast really. So we add sort of six or typically two quarters to it at a time, so we never really get to the end of it, which is a little bit so destroying, but in terms of success it's a delivery against that pretty well. Things jump in and get in the way, but the right things. So you know, if a big commercial opportunity comes in which to have in the last excuse me six months, then the roadmap gets ripped up, we start again. Not start again, but we adjust it, but we have a process for doing that. So that becomes essentially an exact discussion and we say, well, this project is going to get in front of almost everything else maybe not the platform work, but pretty much everything else. Because it's so important commercially and strategically to us, we need to deliver it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, but there's a super powerful tool there, because we didn't have that before. You just said, well, this new thing's probably a tree one. Everything else can go to hell. In fact, it's not like that anymore. At least we know where everything else is going to be. We understand the impact this is going to have on everything else, so we move it out, so we adjust our plan accordingly. So now we have a device essentially doing that, which is really important for us. But yeah, so I think, to answer your question, I'm not sure whether delivery against the roadmap is the right metric because, as I say, opportunities arise and we'd be kind of disappointed if they didn't really. So we want that to happen, but at least we have a device now for managing alongside that.
Speaker 3:That's really interesting. I think when you think about a device, you almost think about a tool and the tools kind of defining the exec prioritization. If I can ask a question, that's all right. I guess how do you manage that from a people journey perspective, in that the priorities changed, we now have to back a new horse almost how do you manage that?
Speaker 2:So I mean through, I think, better communication. You should be the first answer to that. As I say, we have the. Everyone can see the roadmap and can understand it. So we have that as our base of our conversation. But again, because everyone knows the business, we say what? Project X has come along? It's a big UK brand. I won't mention any names. We haven't quite gone live with one of them yet. But everyone says, oh okay, well, that sounds interesting. We say, well, actually it is. And here's the outline numbers we expect Because a lot of people in the business have some equity in the business or some shares in the business, so everyone's sort of pulling in the same direction. And again, because everyone has an understanding of, as I said at the beginning, the mechanics and the sort of commercials of the business. They all, everyone has that kind of empathy for. Oh well, so why wouldn't we do this?
Speaker 2:This must be more important than the other projects that are on the roadmap, while they're not trivialized. This has to come first, because if we decide not to go for it, somebody else is going to take it and it'll never come back. So, yeah, we just have to. I think that works well, and that's through, as I say, good comms, but also through everyone having an awareness of why we do what we do and how we do it.
Speaker 1:I think you inferred that you've kind of got a view of the roadmap kind of two quarters out broadly. Are there things that you can see that would appear on the roadmap two, three years out which you're going to go? Actually, I know at some point these are going to come through. It's just we've got to kind of deal with the here and now.
Speaker 2:I mean, Well, it's actually a 12 month roadmap but we've kind of we add to it probably every two quarters.
Speaker 2:But some of the questions, I'll ask you a question just yes, we have some items on the roadmap which one look not complete in the lifetime of that roadmap. They will they spill out into further periods. The platform work will be one of those, because it's a long, long piece of work, but most things complete within the roadmap period because, whether it's a white label site we're building or whether it's something we're doing for our own SME customers or our own PTG, theopostholicocom, they tend to be shorter pieces of work and as we tool ourselves up better we should refer to earlier to sort of build the white label sites. Then they should become shorter in duration, in runtime. So but yeah, most things complete, as a few exceptions that don't, and in terms of the sort of strategic growth plan for the business, some of the things are not on the roadmap yet because they're either confidential or they're not set in stone yet. So yeah, they won't be on there yet.
Speaker 1:Is is GNAI kind of as a hot topic at the moment? Is that something that's factoring in your plans? Is that or?
Speaker 2:So one of the things James referred to earlier, which is how we sort of changed, or started to change the culture, if you like, certainly the tech side of the business is we run a hackathon in August. Today hackathon in Ann's Leeds office, which is down the road from here, actually, and two and a half the team out and the. It's a big investment isn't it?
Speaker 3:No, it was. Yeah, it was, it's a commitment.
Speaker 2:And everyone absolutely loved it. That's the first thing to say, which is really important, probably the first one we've done. I think we've done this for a second, I think the first first at that scale anyway. And the topic of the hackathon was how can we use GNAI to help our business very broad, whether that's cost reduction, whether it's revenue creation, whatever, it doesn't matter, or both. So that was the, that was the topic. So not necessarily just chat, gpt, but obviously what was central to it, and also not necessarily just you know, a big sort of large language model.
Speaker 2:it could have been a big one and also not necessarily just, you know, a big sort of large language model. It could have been just some machine learning, right so? And we had three very, very strong candidates come out of that, which we are, one of which we're going to present to the business very soon, one of which is a more of a back end process piece with how we sort of de-dupe tickets coming into our Gira environment. We should just save people a lot of time. So that's more of an efficiency gain.
Speaker 2:But the other two I'll say is one of which we're presenting soon could be very impactful for a business. So it was super productive and the guys came and actually presented the three things back to me two weeks ago in our new office in Bolton and everyone absolutely loved it. The feedback was super positive.
Speaker 2:So we're definitely doing more of those. So it was very well facilitated by Ann. Thank you for that. And yeah, those sort of events where we, where the teams, work more in a more sort of fluid way, not on road map projects, so I'm completely different, I want to do more of it is an investment of times, you rightly point out, so you can't do them, you know forever but or too much, but they're really really important, a from morale, but also just gets people out of there, away from their desk, for a little bit and talking to each other a bit more, and I think that was very, very beneficial and they, the feedback was hugely positive. Everyone really liked it.
Speaker 3:I think that that last point, you know, is I think there's something really, really important about that, because I think, when we think about really successful companies, what they do is they don't just structure themselves on one particular aspect of their organization, and I think by running things like hackathon days, a couple of days in this instance, you're not just appeasing certain aspects of the technology that you're trying to harness, the client relationships that you have, the investments that you make in technological decision making, but you're investing in people and that's fundamentally what those two days were about and making it so that the organization becomes not only commercially viable, not only viable to the clients that it provides a service for, but provides a place that becomes a great place to work, and people want to be there because they do great things such as that, and I think that's the thing that came across me. I didn't play a huge role in it, other than to provide some chocolates now and again but yeah, the bit where, when I was present, adding to the rounds of chocolates that were available to people.
Speaker 3:there was a real sense of enjoyment. You know, I'd turned up just after lunch and lunch didn't happen. Nobody went out for lunch. They were just working because they wanted to meet these challenges and they were so ingrained in what they were doing. The conversation was flowing, the idea generation that was just taking place and fundamentally, I think that's what people want to do. You know they want to be challenged and they want to be creative and innovative in their thinking, because that's what we come to work for.
Speaker 1:Well, I suppose I'm going to backtrack there and saying it's not. Doesn't sound like it was a huge investment based on if there's an idea that's going to the board and the people engagement piece. It's almost an Obrona.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, it really is, and I wasn't expecting that level of output from it for more than just. I mean, I thought we might get one good idea, not because I doubt the guys, but because it's the first one to be done. I thought maybe we'll need to sort of learn a bit from it, but actually it was just the opposite to that.
Speaker 1:Right, two final questions, and one one maybe slightly harder, one slightly easier.
Speaker 3:So kind of it's not a test.
Speaker 1:What's the journey so far for you at Parsons to go? What's the biggest lesson you've taken out?
Speaker 2:I think the sort of hearts and minds piece probably around the ways of working. I think personally I'd underestimated how we needed we'd need to iterate that that is. That iteration did work very well, I think I'd. I think that was. If I was doing this again, I would do more to maybe prepare people for that in the business Before we actually started facing them with charts and pictures and sort of diagrams, things like that. Talk more about why we're doing it Before we got into the what and how.
Speaker 2:I think that would have been a that might have saved us a little bit of time on that. That would probably be in retrospect. Yeah, that was a big learning. I think also, the level of benefit once you've got that in place that has to the business is huge. If anyone watching this is embarking or thinking about a barking on it, I would say don't hesitate, because it will be upside, might all be completely painless, but if it was all painless, you're probably not doing enough. So I would say, yeah, the benefits are tangible, especially in this kind of business, which was, as I say, very, very entrepreneur. It's a real trading business and it can really use tech to huge, huge effect and data actually.
Speaker 2:And we needed to do this, I think that was to me, that was very, very obvious. It was a real, it was ripe for this kind of transformation. And also, you know, will you ever? Actually, how do you know when you finish? I think it's the other question yeah, you probably never will. Yeah, but a bit. I building software don't go for the hundred percent solution, because it was real diminishing returns. Get to 80% and quit, move on to the next thing. It's also it's a right 80% yeah it's good.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I think you know you'll, and also you need to support your support of everybody. Everybody's got a role to play in it. It's not this is not a tech thing, absolutely isn't. Everybody's got to understand it. We got to place actually I said before we had the ways of working in place. We people didn't really know how to get stuff done. It was a lobby, an exact member who would shout at people. But now we have. We've got to replace what I said. Right, there's three ways to get software built up past the go right. It's either on the roadmap, it's a small change, for which is a process right, which is very simple, or it's bug fix. There is no fourth way the developing software, a, possibly, that's it. So everyone kind of gets that, yeah, it's very simple and it works.
Speaker 1:Yes, simple things often do so yeah, I think I would. That's something to summarize. I think a theme that goes through all of what we've talked about is that hearts and minds in terms of taking people on the journey yeah, technology is critical, date is critical, but if you don't take the people with you, yeah, you can't actually. No, I'm cool to find, you know. Final question then so in and we have and titles, and I'm sure because that's not the easy one.
Speaker 2:You can decide, you can decide, so anti.
Speaker 1:James's Sunderland fanatic, big football fan, minus rugby, not very excited about the Rugby World Cup you would have an anti-touch shirt, would you, would yours be?
Speaker 2:so I love boats so yeah, probably, I don't know boating a fishing yard or sailing a fishing out of somewhere, and I like any kind of boats actually, but water is this more with a sail or more with an engine?
Speaker 1:both actually, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't really mind, and there's this huge divide in that you cross and over a world yeah, I'm less sort of fussed about that, but I think they're both. They're very different and they both have their you know good and bad side. But yeah, I just like the water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very nice, yeah, very good, lovely job, brilliant, well, thank you very much. That's. That's everything for today, for the good, the bad and the ugly of digital transformation. Thank you again, stuart and James. It's been a pleasure and if you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe so you'll always know when there's a new episode thank you, thank you and digital is on a mission to close the digital skills gap. We do that through working with our clients to deliver digital transformation through better upskilling and reskilling.
