Ep. 74: Exploring Body Farms

This episode explores the fascinating yet unsettling world of body farms and the groundbreaking work of Dr. Bill Bass. By examining how bodies decompose in varying environments, we uncover insights that can aid forensic investigations and societal perceptions of death. 

• Introduction with a funny personal story 
• Overview of body farms and their purpose 
• Dr. Bill Bass's journey and contributions to anthropology 
• Detailed explanation of the stages of decomposition 
• Gripping case studies illustrating the importance of body farms 
• Reflections on the significance of understanding death and decomposition 

If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. 

Beers That Fitz Podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Funny Story Introduction
• 10:00 What is a Body Farm?
• 21:10 Dr. Bill Bass and His Journey
• 50:40 Stages of Decomposition Explained
• 1:10:40 Fascinating Cases and Discoveries
• 1:30:40 Conclusion and Reflections

Transcript

Hannah: 0:00

Oh my god, you want to hear a funny story.

Rob: 0:02

Sure.

Hannah: 0:02

Okay. So before we even left John's apartment, moi gets into the driver's seat of mom's car and you know how mom sometimes likes to put the brake on, like the emergency brake, anywhere she goes. So I was checking for it, so I was flipping all these things underneath, I popped the hood.

Rob: 0:19

Of course you did.

Courtney: 0:20

Open the gas tank.

Rob: 0:21

I opened the gas tank.

Courtney: 0:21

And dislodged the trunk, and do you know who had to get out and fix them all?

Rob: 0:26

You.

Courtney: 0:26

Courtney Elvey. She's sitting there gripping the wheel in both hands. She's like I think I popped the hood. I think I popped the hood. What do I do? What do I do? I'm like get out and close the hood. Was the red light on the dash and said the brake was on, it was the face of oh shit, I didn't even check that part, meaning she probably made me get out and look like a clown car in Boston for no particular purpose.

Hannah: 0:48

But Courtney is like my woman crush. She gets out there, she pops the hood, she slams it back down. I'm like that's my bitch. Ok, hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Courtney: 1:14

Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us. This is.

Hannah: 1:21

Wicked.

Rob: 1:21

Wanderings Hi Courtney, hi Hannah, hi Rob, hello Hi Skye Woof.

Courtney: 1:44

And hi, Kenzie. Kenzie's been kind of mean lately.

Hannah: 1:47

Welcome to the episode on the body farms that Rob had requested.

Rob: 1:52

Excellent.

Hannah: 1:52

I picked up this book which I did give five stars because it's fantabulous. I was intrigued, I was drawn in, I wanted to reread it again. I want more.

Courtney: 2:01

All of the elements because you are very stingy with your five stars. Thank you. Can I ask a quick question before you get into it? Yes, because Rob was the one who suggested it. Rob, what made you think like body farms?

Rob: 2:12

I've always been intrigued about the whole body farm and how they use the science of the body farm to figure out different ways bodies decompose. And they use that science when you know they're doing like an autopsy on a body. So I've always been intrigued by that, even way before I even met Hannah.

Courtney: 2:30

So do you think that you've done enough independent research that you might actually know more about this than Hannah?

Rob: 2:34

I mean, I've never done research on it, I only know what I've seen on TV or heard on podcasts and stuff, what's gonna be interesting is I actually have questions asking.

Hannah: 2:43

If you guys have the answers, cool, we're here for it. We'll see if Rob does know more than me. So the book I read is called Death's Acre, inside the Legendary Forensic Lab, the Body Farm, where the Dead Do Tell Tales, and it's by Dr Bill Bass, who is a famous anthropologist, and John Jefferson who helped him write it. It's absolutely incredible famous anthropologist and John Jefferson who helped him write it. It's absolutely incredible.

Hannah: 3:10

And of course I'm going to quote from it guys, and here I am quoting. So this book was really about Dr Bill Bass and his journey of how the body farm came to be, how he got into anthropology, but also the cases that really stuck out in his mind of how the research that him and his students have done that have helped, you know, the DAs and the prosecutor in cases, and it's really quite incredible. So it's kind of going to go everywhere and I apologize, but like that's kind of how the book was. It was all of a sudden he's like, yeah, and then you know, my wife died, but here I am, you know, digging up Native American remains and it goes on from there. So it's probably going to seem like it's back and forth, but I just tried to pick out the things that I thought were very fascinating.

Courtney: 3:46

I think it's hard to do an episode when a book does that too. The Babysitter was one of those books that did that, where it was like the author's own personal stuff. And then in comes the actual history too. I mean, it is actual history for that person. But when you're talking about you're not doing an episode on the doctor, You're doing an episode on the topic. It is hard to kind of get in there and siphon through it. Exactly so bear with Bear with Bear with. I will try the best I can. Sounds like a new, like EDM track Bear with Bear with Bear with.

Rob: 4:16

It comes from a British show that we watched a few years ago. Oh, miranda, yeah, that's a great show.

Courtney: 4:22

How can she remember stuff like that that fast Me? Yeah, because I'm a weirdo, but other times I'll say something to you and you're like what?

Hannah: 4:29

I just watched you rap a whole Eminem track on the drive.

Courtney: 4:33

It was therapeutic.

Rob: 4:35

Well, music and lyrics come from a different side of the brain than actual speech.

Courtney: 4:40

High five. Us ADHD people, we do that part really well. We do.

Hannah: 4:46

Don't ask us what we, you know, thought first thing in the morning or what kind of toothpaste we have, though, because we won't know so dr bill bass, he started off actually in counseling for his schooling, um, and then he took an anthropology class and he absolutely fell in love with it. He got accepted to harvard but he did not take it, meaning he just he decided, no, I'm not going to do that. I want to go to the University of Pennsylvania, which I think it's rare for people to just say no to Harvard.

Courtney: 5:11

Yeah, harvard probably took that rejection hard, probably. What do you mean? We accepted you. Why are you not coming Right, especially?

Hannah: 5:16

after how famous Bill Bass became anyways, but he wanted to learn from Dr Krogman and he actually was very famous bone detective in the 40s and 50s. So something really interesting is is that dr crogman actually shattered his left leg from a fall and so him and dr crogman actually lived in the same area, so they ended up like commuting. He would help him bring in, but even after his leg was healed they ended up staying partners in crime on the way to work. So he ended up getting like extra lessons on their drive-ins, which I thought was so cool the vip lesson right?

Hannah: 5:50

so okay, here's some fun facts that come in childhood.

Courtney: 5:54

Skeletons are androgynous, meaning you cannot tell what sex they are oh interesting, right makes sense, I thought that was fascinating and I feel like people don't talk about that very often because usually in the cases that we've reviewed, when there have been children, there's more than just skeletal remains to be able to identify those things.

Hannah: 6:13

Right. So the first story he kind of talked about was going to South Dakota and helping with the excavation of the Irikaro tribe, and something I found really interesting was how their graves are different. So when we think about a grave nowadays you have this like rectangular shape right their graves. They would actually make a round pit, put the body in so their knees are up to their chest and they fold their arms, then they actually so put some dirt in, then they put leaves and sticks and then soil on top.

Courtney: 6:46

That does not seem like a comfortable way to rest for the rest of your life.

Hannah: 6:49

It doesn't, but I don't know why they made them circular. I don't know if it just saved space, I don't know, but anyways, I thought that was interesting. If there was a cultural piece to the circle, probably. And something else interesting about Native American remains is that they were being collected, like from everywhere. But in 1990, congress actually passed a law. They could no longer keep Native American bones to be collected, so there was a huge collection in one museum and they weren't allowed to do that anymore.

Courtney: 7:15

What did they do with them after that point?

Hannah: 7:17

They actually got sent back to the tribes. Oh okay, it was the tribes that actually put forth the Congress.

Courtney: 7:22

Like you, can't just like take our ancestors and hold them literally hostage.

Hannah: 7:27

Literally. One good point that he makes is that bones remember. Have you guys ever broken a bone? Yes, no. I haven't either.

Rob: 7:36

And that's why we got married Terrible.

Hannah: 7:40

I guess, I'm unmarriable now, what bones have you broken?

Courtney: 7:44

I broke my fibula on my left leg and then I did break my left, was it? No, it was my right baby pinky toe. I don't know exactly which phalange bone it was but it was completely off the side of my foot. Oh God yeah.

Hannah: 7:58

So your bones are going to remember. So when you are just a skeleton Sorry, courtney, love you but when you're just a skeleton they're going to see where the bones have, like, basically matched up again with a break, isn't that?

Courtney: 8:10

cool, it makes sense. I mean, also for me there's going to be a ginormous hunk of metal over my left ankle that had to be reconstructed so perfect. I've got like I think it's five screws and a steel plate. That's maybe like two and a half inches or three inches.

Hannah: 8:23

So can you go through metal detectors in an airport.

Courtney: 8:25

Um, I can. Sometimes it goes off, sometimes it doesn't. I usually just like pull my pant leg up and don't wear a tall sock that day and be like look, you can literally feel my skin, you can feel the plate through it, and when they wave it over my naked ankle they can see like it's going off. It probably is. I mean, I probably should have one of those cards from my wallet, but I just don't. Interesting, yeah, so if you ever try to fly anywhere with me, be aware of that.

Hannah: 8:47

So for the first question when examining bones, you need to start with the big four. So you have a skeleton in front of you. What do you think are the big four that you need to come up with first? Femur, okay. Besides the bone, like to identify the person oh, the skull no, don't think bones. What will help you say bones?

Hannah: 9:09

you have so, yes, you have a full skeleton in front of you, but what are the four? So, if you have to identify this person, right, what are the four that you probably would need to come up with? First, teeth. Okay, I'll give you a hint. So you have to have find their sex no, that was gonna be my next thing okay, what else does? They were no race oh age.

Courtney: 9:30

Let's see, we were totally wrong on this we were thinking we want to see them teeth rob and I get it.

Hannah: 9:36

Now their age, so sex race age and stature stature they can figure out, like the stature between like two to three inches, based off of looking at your legs I have no clue what you're talking about, like your height and the way you carry your, your build. I think right oh so you are a six foot male, correct? Yes so just looking at your leg, they could figure out like oh, he's probably between, like you know, 5, 10 and 6 1 oh, so they don't need your whole skeleton to determine your height interesting that fascinating.

Hannah: 10:10

So, looking at race right, do you know what bone or structure a bone you can look at to figure out what race someone is?

Courtney: 10:19

uh the pelvic bone wrong I want to say it was someplace in the facial bone, wasn't it? It's the skull.

Hannah: 10:25

So you're thinking of the sex, right, because women's hips are a lot different than a male's. I should say a woman you can't with children, obviously, but me and Courtney would be known. Okay, they're a woman because based off their hip bones. So we have three basic different kinds of races that you can look at. You can have a Caucasoid, which is white people, european. You have Mongoloids, which is Eskimo people of Asian descent, native Americans, and then you have Negroids, which is people of African or Black descent.

Rob: 10:58

Okay.

Hannah: 11:00

Something else interesting when you look at the skull is another difference you can tell is the noses. So there is a smaller and bigger nasal passages. So they would be smaller for people of white descent because of the cold air and they want to keep the cold from getting into the lungs. But they're bigger nasal passages for people of, you know, black, descent of Africa and things because to let the heat in so they can basically a fan, like an internal fan for them, which I thought was really interesting.

Rob: 11:31

So not the heat, but the air. Yes, let air in. Yes.

Hannah: 11:35

Yeah, so the skull density is also something Interesting. White skulls are less dense. An example that he gave is that you don't see many. You know black males or black females being Olympic swimmers and winning. Because, there's actually. It's like their skulls are denser than ours, so it's harder for them to swim Not swim, but like swim fast.

Rob: 11:57

Oh.

Hannah: 11:58

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does so. Dr Bass this is an interesting fact would take bones that still had skin, muscle et cetera on them and boil them on his stove at home. That's disgusting. He actually had to buy his first wife two stoves because she was like absolutely not. Like this is disgusting, which I thought was weird.

Courtney: 12:17

I feel like Cousin Mark would get a real rile out of that because he's immediately thinking in his head. I know you are, mark. You're thinking about the hand and my discomfort with gloves. I know you are thinking about it actually came up in this book how they would take the skin off and I thought of you when they would put the I want to be known for something other than, like meat hands. Can I just be known for something else please? Anything, I'm begging you guys.

Hannah: 12:38

So Bass starts being called to crime scenes and Dr Bass considers the camera the most important part of the crime scene equipment. Why?

Rob: 12:45

Well, because it documents what the crime scene was during that actual time.

Courtney: 12:55

Right, it would show the bones where they naturally were, is what I would imagine as a photographer. I would want to see them the way they naturally were when they were discovered, because once you take them in for cleaning, they're not going to be in the same pattern that they were in the way I would think about okay I think that's what rob was trying to get at, and once you contaminate a scene, right, whether you have little booties on or not.

Courtney: 13:11

Like it's done, right, it's over those first crisp pictures are like when this scene, like he said, like it's pristine, there's nothing else on it so he actually had a student that, like that was his thing.

Hannah: 13:21

He took the pictures and when in doubt, take more was kind of his motto. Yes, so actually one crime scene that they actually did. The pictures were what caught the footprint of the killer. They quartered off the scene, they called the anthropologist and his students started taking pictures. He went to the basement and there was like this layer of dust on the floor and he actually caught the footprint of the killer, which actually helped win the case which is surprising too, because I think a lot of people think, like crime scene photography, there's no skill to it.

Courtney: 13:49

Yep, I mean, I don't. I feel like even just taking photos for a hobby, there's a skill to every kind of different thing you're going to try to capture. If you had had the lighting wrong, you wouldn't have seen a footprint in the dust at all, especially in a basement.

Hannah: 14:06

Yep, especially in a basement. Yep, dr bass also had a burn victim. Uh, so when bodies burn I thought that's interesting the arms and legs act like kindling they actually like shrivel up towards the body. If you have a victim where their arms and legs are straight, it's actually a good indication that they are probably restrained oh interesting.

Hannah: 14:21

I really like that. So, thinking about cases you've probably seen on TV and stuff, I'm trying to like remember if I've ever seen how the Arms Trivel and stuff, but I don't know. I thought that was really interesting.

Courtney: 15:11

I don't feel like I've often like come across that, whether it's in shows or in anything I've been reading, where they talk about the bones specifically. There is one book I wonder if I can remember. All that Remains maybe is the name of it. It's also about bones. That's on my TBR but I haven't read it. Oh yeah, that's on mine.

Hannah: 15:26

It's up there.

Courtney: 15:26

I started to read it and it was a really good book, but I lost somebody in my family right at the same time that I was trying to read it.

Hannah: 15:39

And it was just a little bit too much death for the personal situation that I was in. So soon, dr Bass. Complete difference between the Kansas bodies which had these, like this, clean sun bleached all the bones, and then the Tennessee bodies which they were rotting and maggot laden why.

Courtney: 15:56

Soil Soil differences.

Rob: 15:58

Well, if it's sun bleached, I mean obviously it's getting more sun.

Hannah: 16:01

Right. So the environment Right. It was a lot hotter and drier where he was in Kansas and then he got to Tennessee where it's a lot, it's a moisture air.

Rob: 16:11

So I thought that was also interesting.

Hannah: 16:13

So, oh my gosh, this story got me. So there was a fisherman and he found a floating corpse with no head. So the local newspaper this must have been a small town put out basically like a bolo right. They put out the story and they're like hey, hey, if you found a head, can you please bring it to the sheriff's department as if that wouldn't have been the first thing without somebody telling you that you would have done with a head.

Courtney: 16:35

Yeah, and first of all, don't bring it to the sheriff's department, just like you were saying, leave it where it is and call the sheriff's department.

Hannah: 16:42

Oh god one skull was brought in and it was old and you can just tell like okay, this isn't the most recent fisherman. It was also not white male, which is what they were looking for. Bass was intrigued. He's like well, whose fucking skull?

Courtney: 16:55

is this If you find a body, could you bring that to the sheriff's department also? We've got a real problem coming here.

Hannah: 17:02

So they ended up finding out that a junkyard dealer had it because he got a car from a local of some sort and the skull was in a five gallon paint bucket in the car's engine compartment.

Rob: 17:15

Engine compartment, just the skull.

Courtney: 17:18

How would you even fit a bucket in an engine compartment? That's what I was wondering.

Hannah: 17:21

I don't know if it was a really old car.

Courtney: 17:23

It must have been, or maybe one of the ones where they have like the engine in the back? That's what I was wondering. Rear engine.

Hannah: 17:30

So they ended up finding out that the skull was from World War II. Wow, and the car owner was a World War II vet and he found a crashed Japanese plane, saw the skull and took it as a trophy from the war. The man was Japanese that was died, so he took the skull. He made a hole in the bottom to put a light bulb through to make halloween decoration. Oh god, apparently this was common, where our vets from this war actually would take skulls home as well there's a lot wrong with that statement.

Courtney: 18:02

Yes, there's a lot wrong with that statement there is definitely a lot, of, a lot of uh, questionable things there very questionable, but it's just interesting to me.

Hannah: 18:11

Like all the way, in tennessee you have a skull of a man that was from japan, that fought in the war, like that, to me, is like you're desecrating a body like, yeah, I don't care if you're at war or not, that's just not there's got to be some bad karma associated with making someone's actual head into a Halloween decoration.

Hannah: 18:29

There's got to be so the Body Farm was started in 1981, and Bass was about to embark on some amazing scientific discoveries. And of course he didn't do it on his own. He had his students, which they really branched out into, like studying bugs and like going from larvae to maggots to flies and how long it takes for bodies to decompose. They were putting them in water soil that wasn't like maybe two inches deep. They were putting them in cars to see if the heat of the car was making it worse, like they were trying every which way. And one research avenue was maggots.

Hannah: 19:09

I know Gross, not a great topic. I know, guys, if you're eating you might want to finish eating. First the larvae that hatch from the flies. They lay an egg right, and Dr Bass and his team actually put orange dots on flies as well to see if. Well, one, how would they find the corpse right? Would they find the corpse? And two, if they would go back to the corpse again, or is it just like a one-time thing for them? So they lay their eggs, they turn into maggots, they feed on the body, they become flies. Okay, which is also another reason, like if you have flies in your food, like in the summer, I just think like you know, we always we always push them away.

Hannah: 19:49

But I'm like, oh, like second thought.

Courtney: 19:51

those flies could have been on dead bodies Exactly.

Rob: 19:54

Yeah, exactly. But the thing is with flies when they land, they always throw up where they land, because they use the the acid in the throw up to break down whatever they're going to be eating. So if they land on your food, they're throwing up and that acid is landing on your food so they can consume it. So, yes, it is disgusting when flies land on your food. For that reason and because they were probably just eating a dead animal or something like that, or poop or poop probably just eating a dead animal or something like that, or poop or poop and now they're throwing it up on your food.

Hannah: 20:32

So let's talk about body decomposition. There's three stages that a body goes through. Can anyone tell me what they are?

Courtney: 20:39

decomp one, two and three. No, I'm gonna have to say I don't know anything about decomposition. So you, you have a fresh body.

Hannah: 20:47

You have a bloated body, so that's when the gases are coming through Yep.

Rob: 20:52

So we right now would be considered fresh bodies.

Hannah: 20:55

No, because we're not dead.

Rob: 20:57

If we were dead, right now we would be considered fresh bodies.

Courtney: 21:00

Yes, because we are freshly dead.

Rob: 21:02

Yes, okay, okay.

Hannah: 21:04

So fresh, bloated and then decay.

Courtney: 21:11

I feel, a little bloated I was just gonna say I think I could also be partially bloated, so how long do they last in each like category?

Rob: 21:17

I'm sure it depends on the weather and it depends on where they are.

Hannah: 21:21

So if you have a body in the everglades of florida and a trunk, it's gonna be completely different than somebody that's dead in the desert in Las Vegas.

Rob: 21:31

Oh, versus a body that's dead on Mount Everest.

Courtney: 21:35

Exactly, or in a snowbank here in New England right now.

Rob: 21:38

Exactly.

Courtney: 21:40

Frozen in a little time capsule.

Rob: 21:41

Fun fact about Mount Everest If you die up there, that's where you stay. They do not remove the bodies and bring them back down.

Courtney: 21:49

It's a trophy. You get to stay there. Hopefully you were doing something like coolish.

Rob: 21:55

You were hiking Mount Everest.

Courtney: 21:56

Yeah, but you want like an action shot, not like a pooping in the woods shot or something.

Rob: 22:01

Oh jeez, no Sorry.

Courtney: 22:02

I'm bringing fecal matter into this quite a bit today. Three stages of body decomposition. I'm bringing fecal matter into this quite a bit today. Three stages of body decomposition.

Hannah: 22:08

So there's actually a formula that they can do. So if they find out like, okay, this guy died in New England. You know, it was 32 degrees for two days and then all of a sudden we had a 50 degree day, there's actually a calculation they can do to figure out when the guy died. So that's how they figured that out.

Rob: 22:26

Very fascinating they find. They find out what the temperature of the body is at that point in time, and then they put that into the calculation.

Hannah: 22:35

Well, this is this is different than the than the liver temperature. Oh yeah, this is different.

Rob: 22:40

Okay.

Hannah: 22:41

Just saying that he actually didn't talk about that. So this guy is an anthropologist, right, he's dealing with the bones. You're talking more of like a person that does the autopsy they would check the liver but he's not doing that. There was actually a story in the book. He actually said there was a crime scene, there were several bodies that had decomposed or whatever, and there was actually a fresh body, and he's like this is too fresh for me.

Rob: 23:17

You need to send top seed like that.

Hannah: 23:18

That's not what that one's got organs still yeah, that one's not mine, so fun fact about lime. Does anyone know about lime?

Rob: 23:22

lime disease. Nope, what's something we always know about crime scenes in lime?

Courtney: 23:24

like, uh, the green citrus lime, granny Lime. It doesn't that like break down bodies.

Hannah: 23:29

Yes, but no, he actually says lime does reduce the odor of decomposition but also reduces the rate of decomposition, so it'll help people not smell it, but it's not going to help.

Courtney: 23:42

All those people who were like I need a bucket of lime for this. Well, that's how they got caught. Huh, stupid, stupid.

Hannah: 23:49

Okay, so we have a case?

Rob: 23:51

How about acid in the bathtub?

Courtney: 23:55

Don't call your plumber after. We just talked about this. Yeah, we did with Mark Cousin.

Rob: 23:58

Mark talked about it but the acid will not break down your bathtub.

Hannah: 24:03

Yeah, but then you have stuff going down your drain.

Rob: 24:07

Stuff going in the drain. Yeah, you still yeah. But then you have stuff going in the drain. Yeah, you still have the bones to go in?

Courtney: 24:11

no, because it would break the acid breaks down everything, but not to a complete liquid, the way that some people assume.

Rob: 24:14

It's still clogged have you ever watched breaking bad?

Hannah: 24:17

okay, I couldn't get past the first season because it was bad, breaking very bad no, it was great see, I couldn't get through it either court, so I was like oh my, my gosh, they're making meth again.

Courtney: 24:27

Wow.

Rob: 24:28

Better Call Saul, which was a prequel, was actually better than Breaking Bad, but Breaking Bad was pretty good.

Hannah: 24:34

I have a case.

Rob: 24:36

Case number two.

Hannah: 24:38

Terry Ramsberg, not been seen in two years.

Rob: 24:42

Uh-oh.

Hannah: 24:42

Yeah, funny right, never good. So Terry had actually gone missing around January 1989. He went to work, work, never came home. So not long after lily may, his wife had filed a missing persons case. She then filed divorce shortly thereafter on the grounds of abandonment. She then remained in the house because she's like, oh, maybe terry will return. Okay, so terry's dad this is fishy. He went, just abandoned his family. It just didn't sound like his son. So he decided to go snooping. And he went snooping in the house and, wouldn't you know, he went to the crawl space. And what does he find in the crawl?

Courtney: 25:22

terry, he found terry so I'm sorry, wait a minute. Wait a minute, back it up back it up dead body, terry.

Rob: 25:28

Yeah okay.

Courtney: 25:29

So terry's ex-wife at that point right, because she filed for a divorce, then decided she wanted to stay in the house where the dead body already was, in case he decided to return. That's weird. If you're divorcing somebody, you're like nah, you abandoned me, bye, right which obviously she was trying to make sure that no one found the body I mean there's got be.

Courtney: 25:46

I can't understand people who put bodies in their walls or in their house. You live there, for Christ's sake. People are going to notice, and if there's a body in there, who do you think they're looking at?

Rob: 25:54

Exactly.

Courtney: 25:54

Exactly. It's definitely not somebody else. Exactly.

Hannah: 25:57

Oh my goodness, and she married very shortly after.

Rob: 26:01

That's like with the local we covered, Stuart Welding. He was putting the dead bodies in his backyard.

Courtney: 26:07

Why Seems like the first place somebody would look.

Hannah: 26:11

I just have a fun quote from him.

Courtney: 26:14

And here I am quoting Basements.

Hannah: 26:16

Why are crime labs and morgues always in basements? Why not on the upper top floor with big corner windows looking out across the city or the countryside? Just because some of us like to look at bodies and bones, that doesn't mean we wouldn't appreciate a nice few-hour window every now and then.

Courtney: 26:30

Because they don't want people looking in from outside. Duh.

Rob: 26:33

Or they don't want the sun to mess up stuff.

Courtney: 26:36

I mean, or they just don't like the overhead light.

Hannah: 26:42

You can get windows that, with certain reflection, that you still can look out but no people can look in so what's the reason? There is it. He was just going on a rant and I appreciated the quote I mean to be fair.

Courtney: 26:50

I do also hear creepy things about addicts. Very often I have a. There's a negative connotation for me with the word crawl space. After how many true crime things we've done because there's never not a dead body in the crawl space?

Hannah: 27:01

yeah, true. So another fun fact like with the lime, fire is not the easiest way to get rid of a body that I could have told you yeah it really is not. So he obviously said the fatter the person is, you know, the easier it is. But that just it's not, it doesn't really it's not a complete job.

Rob: 27:19

The fat turns into fuel for the fire, right? So if you're's not, it doesn't really it's not a complete job. The fat turns into fuel for the fire, right?

Courtney: 27:24

so if you're gonna burn somebody, don't let it be a skinny one yeah my last case.

Hannah: 27:28

I'm gonna talk to you guys about case three this case in 1997 in tennessee and dr bass was called to help with it because, you know, the police department wasn't so sure about it. They ended up at a house of a man named matt rogers and right away bass sees a burn barrel, as you do in the south, with a bone sticking out of it, and matt, who is the perpetrator, says oh that bone. You know, my dog caught it in the woods and it's a goat bone goat yeah like greatest of all time bone, tom Brady bone.

Hannah: 28:02

So he found the bone right and police department didn't believe him. So that's why they called Dr Bill Bass and right away, bass is like that is definitely a human bone. And so come to find out, matt actually killed his wife, who had been missing for 11 days, because she said 11 days prior, I'm going to leave you and be with so-and-so guy, and he didn't like that. That was another case that he had solved. Okay, I'm gonna talk about the body farm yay but there's really nothing to talk about.

Hannah: 28:30

Like it it's. This is his story of how he came to talk about the body farm but the body farm is really just where people donate bodies and they talk about the decomposition in different areas. Like I said, the water. I talked about shallow graves in cars.

Courtney: 28:45

Um some are buried under a tree instead of right on the open so can people just sign up to like donate their body to body farms? You can. Is that different than donating to like science?

Hannah: 28:56

this is science.

Courtney: 28:57

I feel like you could be very specific, right, but like there's different kinds of science, like make me a cadaver at a medical school, I'd rather be in a body farm, I think.

Hannah: 29:06

I think I do also want to be cremated to become a tree, though, so I'd like to be cremated and shot into space so I'm very hesitant of cremation now because there was actually one of his last stories he talked about in the book about how there was this crematorium down in the south where they were not cremating the remains at all and they ended up finding like over 200 bodies on this property of different decomposition of people's bodies and they weren't cremating people at all.

Rob: 29:36

So what were they giving, probably?

Courtney: 29:39

some kind of sand or something.

Rob: 29:41

Yeah, oh, yeah, oh.

Courtney: 29:42

Yeah, I also have always had that fear of like and obviously I've had relatives who have been cremated, but I have not obviously gone to the viewing. I know that you can do that, but I just have not chosen to do that. How do they like ensure that the whole person is?

Hannah: 29:58

there. From what I understand about when they were talking about the cremation process, it sounds like it's very calculated in, like how they you know they have them on the stretcher, they have them like literally in a cardboard box right and that's stapled on and on a gurney. They just kind of like push them in and they have the temperature reach to a certain height where obviously the staples are gonna come off. But then they actually make sure with a magnet to make sure the staples aren't in the cremated remains. And there's actually like a pulverization where they take the rest of the bones and they literally put it in a blender.

Rob: 30:34

It's not a blender, it's a pulverizer.

Hannah: 30:36

But it's you know, they gave the blender as a.

Rob: 30:39

Well, because when you burn a body, it doesn't burn everything. The bones are still there.

Courtney: 30:44

The more we talk about cremation, the more I think I'd like to go to the body farm.

Rob: 30:48

So they have to take the bones and put them inside of this machine and it pulverizes them and that's how you get the powdery substance.

Hannah: 30:56

I mean, that makes sense but it's just not great to think about. Something also he actually found calculations for was one family that he worked with that they're like this is the bag that they gave us of remains and he's like this is like several ounces off from what a full body for a male should be. So the full body for a male should have been a little under eight pounds and that's definitely not. They had like five, right? Even a woman is supposed to be around six and a half to seven and he actually he actually weighed like 50 different bags of female and male just to see like what the average was. So like that was obviously really curious guy yeah, he was.

Hannah: 31:32

He's really quite fascinating, he's very thorough, okay, yeah, so actually the final total that was found was 339 bodies on this property wow I just don't understand what they would stand to gain.

Courtney: 31:42

Like I'm trying to think like a business scam, wise they were like one of.

Hannah: 31:45

I think they were the cheapest around and they would keep the money Okay.

Courtney: 31:49

So, instead of firing it up and going through the process, they were like, well, just go out to the sandpit.

Rob: 31:54

Yeah.

Hannah: 31:55

Right. And so when he, dr Bill bass, actually went with some of the the prosecutors and stuff he's like you could tell that this crematorium hasn't been fired up in years. You could tell if there's no maintenance to it. It just it looked torn down, bricks were falling out and at that point.

Courtney: 32:13

Like who, like our elevators are inspected annually. Our crematoriums, yes, yes.

Hannah: 32:20

So there's an inspection you should be getting yearly, so like if they clearly weren't getting it.

Courtney: 32:25

So why was the like business bureau in town like, yeah, sure, I'll just keep let them. They don't have a town permit, but I don't know if it was a small town. I don't know if it's because of the time maybe they were in on it I do love a good conspiracy theory, along with my crime so I thought it.

Hannah: 32:38

It was really fascinating. So the last quote I'm actually going to leave with guys. Here I am quoting I thought this was a really good ending to my episode and to actually kind of understand how weird Bill Bass was but actually how brilliant he was at the same time. This is after his second wife died. He had three wives in total.

Rob: 32:59

All at the same time.

Hannah: 33:00

No.

Courtney: 33:01

His first wife died?

Rob: 33:02

Was he Mormon?

Courtney: 33:02

I'm glad to see Rob's humor is back.

Hannah: 33:05

His first wife had passed, then he had a second wife that passed, and then he had his third.

Courtney: 33:11

And nobody thought we should look at this guy and what he's doing with wives.

Hannah: 33:16

So here's the quote. At work, by contrast, I was surrounded by people. Most of them were dead, mind you, but they were comforting all the same. They had shared their stories with me and had entered my life. They were companions who had never abandoned me.

Rob: 33:30

It's kind of sad.

Hannah: 33:30

It's sad he was very lonely at that time. He wrote that, but I just I was. I loved this book. I absolutely found it so fascinating, I almost thought. I missed my calling it should have been an anthropology, but nevertheless Deathsaker. I recommend.

Rob: 33:46

So when did he start his first body farm?

Hannah: 33:48

1981.

Rob: 33:49

1981.

Courtney: 33:50

Okay, so they're relatively new in concept.

Rob: 33:53

Yes, and how many body farms are there across the country?

Hannah: 33:58

I only know about this one.

Rob: 34:00

That's it.

Hannah: 34:00

Yeah, he was a trailblazer.

Rob: 34:02

Wow.

Courtney: 34:02

I wonder if there's something you can Google, is that Googleable?

Rob: 34:05

Probably I can't do it because I'm holding Skye's face right now, googleable yeah. Well, that was great. That was great. Hannah, Was it Great?

Courtney: 34:14

history yeah, that was good Courtney. Yes, I thought it was great.

Rob: 34:19

Excellent.

Courtney: 34:20

I can honestly say I know more about body farms now than I did before, though I didn't really spend much time thinking about them. I'll be, honest, it's not something I thought about a lot.

Rob: 34:30

So we haven't done this in quite a few episodes. Do we want to do a card? All right, Pick a card. Any card, All right. So we have any card.

Hannah: 34:42

All right, so we have the 10 of spades.

Rob: 34:45

Okay.

Hannah: 34:46

That's spades right.

Courtney: 34:46

Yes, that's a spade I love that Hannah turns it around to ask every single time. It's one of the cutest things about Hannah.

Hannah: 34:53

Lennon or Lenny Valerio. On June 2nd 2018, at approximately 1.14 am, the victim was found shot multiple times lying in the roadway on Reservoir Street in Holden. The victim has ties to the mob gang out of Worcester and, of course, if anyone has any info about this case, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE.

Courtney: 35:14

So sad. How old is he? He's a handsome kid.

Hannah: 35:19

Does not say but he can't be more than 20.

Rob: 35:21

Yeah, that's really sad. It's very sad, so sad. All right, well, thank you, hannah, thanks guys.

Courtney: 35:29

Thank you, Hannah.

Rob: 35:31

And it was great to be back on the microphone here.

Hannah: 35:34

Yeah, someone needs to stop being so busy.

Rob: 35:37

Well, you know what? Every time I go play Airsoft with Pizza man, you guys decide to record, and then I miss out.

Hannah: 35:46

You know what the fun thing is.

Rob: 35:47

What's that?

Hannah: 35:48

Cousin Mark talked about Pizza man. If anyone was listening to our last couple episodes, he has no idea who Pizza man is. It's the best.

Courtney: 35:54

It's the best that we keep the identity hidden. I think it's so funny.

Hannah: 35:57

He's like I want more episodes of Pizza man.

Courtney: 35:59

And Kevin Cordy's like do you know who it is? He's like no, and then I go ghost on our conversation.

Rob: 36:05

Sorry, Cousin Mark, don't take it personally.

Courtney: 36:08

That's how I text everybody All right. Well, thank you guys?

Rob: 36:11

Yes, thank you, I don't know what. I'm doing next, but All right, well, we can't wait.

Hannah: 36:15

Bye guys, bye. Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and co-hosted by me, courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Hannah: 36:25

Music by Sasha M. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering. Thank you.