High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
Hosts Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein serve up unfiltered insights, reveal their insiders' perspectives, and illuminate transformative ideas about the cannabis industry for people who want to make sense of it all.
High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
#051 - Who is the Cannabis Media Council? w/ Amy Deneson, Executive Director
๐ฟ ๐ช๐ต๐ผ ๐ถ๐ ๐๐ต๐ฒ ๐๐ฎ๐ป๐ป๐ฎ๐ฏ๐ถ๐ ๐ ๐ฒ๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฎ ๐๐ผ๐๐ป๐ฐ๐ถ๐น?! ๐ฟ
Join us this week as we sit down with Amy Deneson, the Executive Director and Co-Founder of the Cannabis Media Council (CMC), to explore the pivotal role of this groundbreaking organization in reshaping public perception and media narratives around cannabis.
๐ ๐๐ฏ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ง๐ต๐ถ๐ ๐๐ฝ๐ถ๐๐ผ๐ฑ๐ฒ:
In an era where cannabis is becoming part of mainstream conversation yet still battles against decades of stigma, the need for informed and ethical advertising is more critical than ever. The CMC aims to fill this gap by partnering with major media outlets, such as Hearst, to drive ethical mainstream acceptance of cannabis. This episode delves into the CMCโs commitments to disciplined, fact-based advertising and their mission to advocate for mainstream awareness through powerful, people-centered campaigns.
๐ก ๐ช๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ฌ๐ผ๐'๐น๐น ๐๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฟ๐ป:
๐ฎ ๐๐๐โ๐ด ๐๐ช๐ด๐ด๐ช๐ฐ๐ฏ ๐ข๐ฏ๐ฅ ๐๐ช๐ด๐ช๐ฐ๐ฏ: Discover the core objectives of the Cannabis Media Council and how they plan to transform cannabis advertising.
๐ญ ๐๐ต๐ณ๐ข๐ต๐ฆ๐จ๐ช๐ค ๐๐ฅ๐ท๐ฆ๐ณ๐ต๐ช๐ด๐ช๐ฏ๐จ: Understand the strategies Amy and her team are employing to navigate the complex media landscape and promote positive cannabis experiences.
๐ ๐๐ณ๐ฆ๐ข๐ฌ๐ช๐ฏ๐จ ๐๐ข๐ณ๐ณ๐ช๐ฆ๐ณ๐ด: Explore how the CMC is working to end media moratoriums and establish guidelines that foster media accountability and expansion.
๐ข ๐๐ฏ๐ฅ๐ถ๐ด๐ต๐ณ๐บ ๐๐ฅ๐ท๐ฐ๐ค๐ข๐ค๐บ: Learn about the national campaigns the CMC is running to normalize cannabis consumption and educate the public on its benefits.
๐ ๐ ๐ฒ๐ฒ๐ ๐๐บ๐ ๐๐ฒ๐ป๐ฒ๐๐ผ๐ป:
Amy Deneson is a dynamic leader and a veteran in the fields of advertising, technology, and social impact. As the co-founder of Pheno Collective and the Cannabis Media Council, Amy combines her extensive marketing expertise with a profound commitment to social justice and education in the cannabis industry. Her work is driven by a desire to challenge the status quo and promote inclusive, community-oriented business practices at scale.
๐
๐ช๐ต๐ ๐ง๐๐ป๐ฒ ๐๐ป?
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in cannabis advocacy, marketing professionals, and entrepreneurs looking for insights into effective communication strategies within the industry. Amyโs unique perspective on advertising and her strategic approach to media relations provide invaluable lessons on driving change and fostering acceptance.
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Hey everybody, welcome to Episode 51 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and, as always, I'm joined by my smarter half, anna Rae Grabstein. It is Thursday, july 18th, 2024, and we have a great guest on today. We're going to be talking about the Cannabis Media Council advertising, deprogramming, the stigma impacted on us by the war on drugs and all those things. But before we get there, as always, I'm going to check in with my co-host and Ray how's the week been?
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, the week has been wild and crazy. Things are not slowing down in the world of cannabis. I really have just been balls to the walls getting work done, but looking forward to my time with you today where we get to kind of make sense of it all. A fun thing that's going on here in our home state of California is the state fair. The state fair um that happens in the state capital, in Sacramento this year has a big, huge cannabis activation and while I haven't made it, I have been talking to a lot of folks um who've been in over the past few days and big shout out to the embark team Um Lauren Carpenter, the CEO over there, was on the podcast probably about a month ago.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And um, they are leading the charge to sell, educate and consume cannabis at the state fairgrounds for the first time ever, making a lot of history. And the crew over from buddest, which is, uh, the social review app that was founded by josh jocelyn sheltra. Um, they also partnered um with embark in the state fair to do um awards of cannabis at the state fair. So also a previous guest, also previous guests, and also like two different women ceos that I'm getting to drop their names. So shout out to all the women ceos that are doing cool shit in cannabis right now. It's been really hot in Sacramento and I know that people are still going and partaking, so just excited. I hope that if you are local, there's still, I think, probably another week of the state fair going on that you can go check it out.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So go definitely consume some cannabis on state fairgrounds.
Ben Larson:Amazing, yeah, it's been hot everywhere, though I was just in in Colorado over the weekend, uh, visiting some folks in the industry and we were definitely in the hundreds. And you know, then I'd catch up with uh Diana Eberlein over in Virginia, washington DC, and they're also in the hundreds and feeling the humidity and I think we're all just a little summered out already and it's still actually pretty early for for the, for the summer push, um, if my kid's summer camp schedule is an indication of it, um, for sure.
Ben Larson:So I'm, I'm, I'm ready to get back to whatever normal life is, if there is a normal life anymore. I don't know, uh, we won't get into politics, um, but yeah, everything is just a very fast treadmill.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Right now it feels like yeah, things that for tosa positive yeah, yeah, I mean for the most part, I.
Ben Larson:I think I I spend a lot of my time trying to predict what's going to be happening in the future, and I'm even on a podcast or a panel later today where we're going to be talking about the potential impacts of rescheduling, which we all know. Rescheduling itself is up in the air and it's funny because I was preparing for this panel being like what are the impacts of rescheduling on manufacturers like Vertosa? And just today, canra released this request to Congress, basically saying we need guidance on essentially everything. It was a list of like seven different things, but it's just the regulators asking for guidance on the impacts of rescheduling, like how is this going to change enforcement? How is this going to change rules? Are there going to be a new rule set that we also have to harmonize with the state-by-state rules? And so all questions that we as operators probably also should have, but if the regulators have them, it means that there probably aren't clear answers.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Oh, the uncertainty and the opportunity within the uncertainty. These are wild times.
Ben Larson:That's why we're all here, though.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Exactly. That's why we're all here. We like it. We're gluttons for pain, pain and punishment in the best kind of way.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, let's jump into our conversation today. I'm really excited to bring on Amy Dennison. Amy is the executive director and co-founder of the Cannabis Media Council, which is a trade organization on a mission to deprogram the war on plants by ending mainstream media moratorium on cannabis advertising. Amy also co-founded an ad agency for cannabis brands, businesses and operators called Pheno, and she's a fractional CMO for House of Puff. In her prior role, Amy led marketing at Cureleaf and she lives in New York, so welcome, Amy, to the podcast today.
Amy Deneson:Thank you, anna Rae and Ben, pleasure to be here.
Ben Larson:How are things in New York? Is it still hot out there too?
Amy Deneson:I mean, yeah, we're melting over here as well, but we're getting through it and we've got plenty of fun. Certainly so, there, in spirit for the California State Fair, my co-founder, joyce Sonali, will be there with members and bark love their leadership and so excited to see, you know, the California state fair embrace this agricultural product and and so you know, really cheering you on from New York. But New York is great. We're excited to see so many things coming online as well. As you know, I'm here repping WNBA and so their season is certainly uh heated in a way that uh hasn't been in the 20 years of its existence, and so really, you know, lots of good things to to celebrate the.
Ben Larson:The bay area just got a wmba team. We got the I know I can't wait I was looking at all their swag that they post on. Is that what merch? I guess um and schwag's and company thing, but the valkyrie logo is pretty dope.
Amy Deneson:I was, I was, uh, certainly considering getting some I love the colors, and anna ray and I are chatting about it how they're. You can't keep it in stock. Uh, it's, yeah, it's so dope it. Yeah, it's really cool well.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So the other thing that is on fire in New York, aside from the temperature, is the cannabis industry. Like it seems like we're finally reaching some critical mass in terms of dispensaries opening. It's not looking quite so grim as it was 12 months ago. You know we're going to talk about the Cannabis Media Council, but I'd love to get your thoughts on your home market and what you're seeing in the streets.
Amy Deneson:For sure.
Amy Deneson:You know for sure as someone who's been advocating for cannabis for you know, 20 years really been part of it in an inactive way, you know, for 10 years.
Amy Deneson:This is the most inactive way for 10 years.
Amy Deneson:This is the most hopeful, the most delicious, honestly, the most accessible market that we've seen yet, and so, as we look forward to more dispensaries open and opening, more brands coming online, a variety, a consistency in the market of being able to get products as people start to fall in love and want to enjoy these products, I just think it's all on the upward trajectory and we're going to get in and talk about Cannabis Media Council and how we're really taking an approach to using the charms of advertising to help accomplish our goals. But also in New York right now under review is an amendment specifically related to marketing and advertising and looking to expand some of the channels as well as ways that we talk about businesses and products within the regulated market, which I think is a really positive direction that the regulators are listening and that also we now have some data and also businesses that are advocating for how we can continue to amplify these legal, regulated businesses and introduce these products in these retail locations to consumers, as well as get to know cannabis anew for so many.
Ben Larson:Wow, regulators, listening and making things easier and more abundant, and more what was delicious is the word that you use. I love that we have a couple of partners in New York and I'll validate that. It seems like everything's been on the up and up this year. How many doors are now open.
Amy Deneson:That's a good question. I'd have to look. I want to say like 190.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Don't quote me on that. I think it's 109, not 190. But it's happening fast.
AnnaRae Grabstein:It's more opening all the time, and I think one of the major things that's happening is that, because the doors are opening, the oversupply is maybe letting up a little bit. It sounds like what we're seeing is that it's starting to become a little bit more even and that was the big problem was that New York encouraged cultivators to get started and then there was no outlet for product and it created widespread desperation that nobody wanted to see, and I don't think that that was the regulator's intent. It's just the way that it all happened. It was just a big mess. Okay, well, enough about New York, let's talk about the Cannabis Media Council. Will you share with our listeners what you guys are up to, kind of the founding story? What exactly is the Cannabis Media Council?
Amy Deneson:For sure, and thank you for the opportunity to chat about it. So the Cannabis Media Council is a trade organization and we serve to end censorship, to end moratoriums of people not accepting the business and the advertising within their channels, and help those existing publications understand not only the business case but also how they can feel comfortable and validated in working with these brands within legal markets. But then it's also to encourage advertisers within the cannabis brands and businesses to understand that this is a channel that is growing and ever more open to them. So advertising is a part of the marketing mix that has its own charms in that you really can be very transactional in nature with it. You can have, within the guidelines of a publication and within the market that you're in, you can have a lot of control over the creative and the messaging that you put out there and then, depending on budget, you can really scale it up or down depending on how effective it is for you. So advertising as a channel has an opportunity to be a tool in a way, for whether it's the Cannabis Media Council as we run our own campaign, which I'll talk to you about in a moment or brands individually for them to get to market and also communicate in a compliant and also enticing way to their target market what they are offering, utilized part of the marketing mix. But also because advertising has a long history of showing that, when you have recent stream frequency, when you have a saturation of message, that it really can shift hearts and minds.
Amy Deneson:And so, when we set about with this twofold mission of deprogram, flip the script on. You know, we've seen an inundation of PSAs, or of propaganda, for the last, you know, 50 years, starting with Reefer Madness. We also have, you know, the skillet and the egg that so many people remember, and so we have a long history of anti-cannabis information coming out through advertising. And so the Cannabis Media Council said hold on, why don't we fight some fire with fire and put out our own PSAs? And so we created a channel for PSAs to reach all 50 states as well as issue full spectrum guidelines, which is a annual report that we put out to help publishers and advertisers get to know what is possible within you know, and also what is inspiring to help grow this channel between those two partners that are necessary.
Ben Larson:So I want to. I want to talk about one of the campaigns that came out. So I'm high right now. I don't know if y'all saw this, but it's great, it's hilarious, it's been all over the place. There's all these different instances of it, but it's it's taking like common phrases and and making them positive, like this one it's like dirtbag that's me and just different ways that in noticeably like people that are a little bit older kind of enjoying cannabis and the different ways that they do so Golf right, and I just thought it was really incredible. So there's a we could talk about the campaign itself, but I'm more actually interested in the how, because I thought a lot of these advertising channels were typically cut off to cannabis, and this was through Hearst Media and, I believe, in Esquire Magazine. How did this all come about? Does that mean that channel is now open to cannabis for advertising?
Amy Deneson:Absolutely, and thank you for highlighting I'm high right now. This is our first campaign through the Cannabis Media Council and, exactly to your point, it's meant to be lighthearted. It also features our elders, and intentionally so. One, because people over the age of 55 and 60 are some of the highest consumers of our products and also are overlooked in advertising quite frequently, and so one wanted to highlight this demographic as well as uplift the elders in our communities that are consuming and, yes, show them within an environment of them enjoying their life.
Amy Deneson:So getting back on the golf course or getting back into the garden or swinging back into their old ways Sunset strolls that have never been brighter for another one of our elders but also use language that's been weaponized, language that has been you know, whether it's called dirtbag or that cannabis is a gateway gateway to what you know, asks some of our elders. And so, with that, flip and reclaim that language that's been weaponized, as well as feature our elders, who are also leaders within many of our families, and so they have a normalizing effect, that within the family structure, that if auntie's okay with this or grandma's okay with this, then it has a way of opening conversation within the family in a new way and really talking about the product, what they're using, what's working for them and we know that after being in the cannabis space both prior to legalization and in legalization. It really is a word of mouth conversation as people start to get to know the plants anew and the products anew, but also what's effective and why for what people are consuming.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, but back to the how'd you guys pull this off? I think that there's a few questions that I have about that specifically and I want to understand, knowing that you're a marketing strategist and that you help companies also not just in your seat as the Cannabis Media Council when you look at national advertising, like an Esquire that gets distributed around the world certainly all around the country If you're a brand that is only distributed in one or five states, like that might not be the right channel for you. You guys, as part of a national campaign. I know that you've looked at yourselves in some ways, like the Got Milk people or campaign, or the Beef it's what's for Dinner. Just getting these categories out there makes sense to take a national distribution approach so that everyone everywhere is learning about cannabis or getting the message of the campaign Um. So I'm curious about how you pulled that off. But then I also am curious of how, how brands that aren't in 50 States, um are leveraging advertising and what the channels are that make sense for people.
Amy Deneson:Excellent, the question of how that's the magic. And a couple of years ago, at this point, almost three, I was leaving Cureleaf and starting Fino, my ad agency. And I knew Joyce Sonali, the co-founder of the Cannabis Media Council at this point for many years as being an absolute force in the California market and beyond. And you know, she called me one day and she's like you know, look, I see what you're doing for Fino on the behalf of individual brands, businesses and revolutions as we continue to advocate and legalize this industry. Is there something you could imagine for the industry as a whole? And I said the short answer is yes, the channels, the pipes are being built, they're available. But the longer answer is how do we make it the most impactful for the industry at large? And that answer was the Cannabis Media Council. And so, really, we came together with a twofold approach of building not only the question of how do we create a campaign or issue guidelines that serves the market as a whole. So, starting with the idea that collaboration over competition is the core of this collective coming together, and understanding that we have a singular, singular goal in which we must grow the addressable market, we must grow the amount of curious and confident and of age consumers that are open to, you know, walking into a dispensary or learning about these products in a new way. And so, as the, as the, the focal point of, you know how we get now, at this point, over 400 operators within the space to raise their hand to say that they want to be part of this council, that they want to be with us. They they're like please be a tide that lifts this boat. They're like please be a tide that lifts this boat. And so, with that, starting with the idea that is totally established in other markets Anna Rae, you mentioned got milk for the dairy industry, beef is what's for dinner these are category level campaigns. So, within advertising, it's a certain type of advertising that speaks to the category as a whole, as opposed to an individual brand's, you know, products or aims going to their individual website, and so the idea around you creating a category level campaign is something that is substantiated by other industries as something that keeps the regulated market or the markets top of mind and also helps to drive, as a, you know, awareness and also engagement with the legal market.
Amy Deneson:And you know our grown-up plan is to grow into a checkoff program, and so that would require federal legalization and also a whole host of other things to happen. But that is the ultimate goal of the Cannabis Media Council as an organization is to be the pro-PSA category level media part and uplifting this sector. And so, once we really aligned around, we want this to be category, we want this to be the collective industry as a whole, we want there to be something that can unify us around humor, around light heartedness, around the family. We then said, okay, we're going to lead by example with the I'm High Right Now campaign. That will set not only an example for where and how you can advertise and it's nuanced, and I'll get into that in a second but then also set the guidelines to help inspire and set direction and also instill confidence that we as an industry do want to self-regulate and do want to put forward best in class, not only in creativity within the advertising sector, and so really thrilled that we won Clio's for this work. It's a validation not only that it was effective for the cannabis sector but also within the mainstream advertising and marketing world as something that does represent creativity and you know and crispness of message for you know, for best practices within advertising.
Amy Deneson:And so with that, the melding of Joyce's leadership with so many organizations and businesses, and then my you know, at this point of 15, 20 years of marketing and advertising experience, said okay, let's bring it together. And the way that we wanted to launch was with a partner that has a history and that partner is Hearst. So our first launch out of the gate was with a Hearst property, because we also wanted to talk about the evolution being in the Connecticut Post, being in Men's Health, but also their support of Embark, another Cannabis Media Council member, and also their leadership at the State Fair being on Meta. So through their relationships as Hearst, as a property, they're able to help brands get online and onto channels and then also fast forward. They're currently, through Hearst newspapers, in partnership with the Cannabis Media Council, supporting the Reefer Madness musical that's in LA.
Amy Deneson:So to go from supporting Reefer Madness in the original context to Cannabis Media Council running supportive ads for Reefer Madness. The revisal, currently through Hearst Newspapers in LA, is the kind of evolution that we want to acknowledge but also inspire other people. It's okay to have been wrong about this plant. It's okay to have been wrong about how we talk about it or regulate it, but the point is to get it right and the point is to make the best decision now in order to move it forward. And so it's really through the relationships with these individual publishers Hearst we started with. And Ben to your question, the print ad ran in the New York version of Vanity Fair.
Ben Larson:Oh, Vanity Fair.
Amy Deneson:So, vanity Fair being part of Condรฉ Nast. But, anna Rae, to your question, even though Vanity Fair is a national publication, there are ways when you buy media that you can reach just a specific market. So, for example, the Vanity Fair print piece ran just in the New York market when adult use and the first dispensaries started opening, and so there's lots of nuances about the types of campaigns, types of products where they can run. But the key takeaway is that whether you are a single state operator or you do have a national play, because you're direct to consumer and maybe you're hemp derived in your products, in your products, and you can go through that channel, is that there's ways for you to get to market with mainstream advertising and and and see and see your goals met.
Ben Larson:I had no idea that you could do targeted in magazine print. That's really interesting. I want to go back to something you said kind of selfishly. I appreciate that you brought up self regulation. It's a. It's a conversation that has been top of mind as I participate in a lot of different associations. Can we talk a little bit about what it means to be a member of the Cannabis Media Council? Like, is there a and I know there's guidelines that we'll kind of get into in a little bit here but is there a code of conduct that these members are signing on to? And then are they funding kind of like this collective effort, because we all know that cannabis companies don't spend a lot of money on advertising. Some of it's because they don't know how, others is because we have such limited resources, and so, like, how are, how are these global efforts going to be going to be funded in the future?
Amy Deneson:It's a great question and it's so important. The marketing in cannabis is categorically underfunded. And so, anne-marie, you were asking before. You know, with marketing we do see around kind of 2% to 5% of the annual budget being allocated to marketing, of an annual budget being allocated to marketing, which, if we compare that to other industries, if we look at retail, those numbers are usually more like 10 to 12% of an operating budget. Or if we look at CPG or a direct consumer model that also is applicable you see more in the lines, depending on the maturity of the business, really more around even 15 to 25%, depending on you know where they're at. So to look at, you know, two to 5% it's if it's funded at all.
Amy Deneson:I think there's, there are quite a few, there are quite a few cannabis businesses and operators that are just saying you know, it's everything we can do to get it on the shelf. And so I certainly I feel that pain. I've been in that chair with those budgets and also as a fractional CMO. You know. Do see how painful it is to not have enough money in marketing in order to really get your message out there and afford to be in the places that you want to be, in which I do think that rescheduling has a massive potential to impact, because, with rescheduling, 280e would no longer be in effect and therefore marketing could be a write-off. That would be an enormous help in terms of being able to see marketing as an investment but also as a write-off, and so that would be a major impact for sure. And so, looking at how do we serve the members of the Cannabis Media Council precisely to your point, because many brands can hardly afford to advertise for themselves the ask to advertise on a collective for everyone. It's not the right time. So instead, membership for the Cannabis Media Council is really raising your hand to say you know, it's free, with high values, to say I have high values, we do have a manifesto. We do also encourage people to come in with the point of view of collaboration over competition. What might we create together in order to delight our consumers? Consumers are not, you know, one brand only. We know this. You know, for our life we consume lots of brands, not just speaking about cannabis, but we consume.
Amy Deneson:We're hoping to do is be of service, and so the way it's being funded is that ancillary providers support within the industry who are building their business in order to serve the cannabis sector, are our primary donors at this point, and so donors particularly being it's tax deductible, which is a huge thing for us that we wanted to make sure we could offer, which is through our partner, sema. Sema Studio allows us to provide tax deductible donations to people within, to people contributing to the Cannabis Media Council, and then all of our media is donated by our partners. So Hearst, we've talked about, vanity Fair, was donated. Surfside is a partner that has donated media in order to reach markets, and so that is how we not only raise the awareness and the consideration for cannabis within markets.
Amy Deneson:So we were in Missouri, we've been in all 50 states, just as a general note, for the last year, but, like we have also had dedicated campaigns within Nevada, arizona, missouri, minnesota, obviously, new York, california that we've talked about, and so you know, with that, also trying to, you know, have and reach markets that are coming online in new ways as well, and so be of service there with our campaigns, but then also with the guidelines.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So let's dive into the guidelines. I think this is the biggest news in terms of what you guys have done. Recently. You just put out your refreshed 2024 guidelines called Full Spectrum Guidelines for Responsible Cannabis Advertising.
AnnaRae Grabstein:We have a history of different types of products over the years getting in trouble for irresponsible marketing. Alcohol and tobacco are both examples that have been through various stages of pushback by the public and, as a result, we don't see tobacco ads on television anymore and in social media, but we do see some types of alcohol ads, and both of those spaces have trade associations that are similar to what you guys are creating with the Cannabis Media Council, and the alcohol version gets brought up a lot with the Cannabis Media Council and the alcohol version gets brought up a lot. The Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, discus, and they put out their responsible practices for beverage and alcohol advertising. And I looked through this in anticipation of this conversation today and it seems like this in many ways is kind of table stakes for an industry that is highly regulated. Is that it's like? Once I started looking through these alcohol regulations, it was like, oh, of course the cannabis industry needs to step up and then we need to do this also, um, and so it seems like you guys are serving a really important role in what is a step in the maturation of the industry and of the kind of professionalism, professionalization and legitimization of of what we're doing that I, I believe, will support, in a sort of domino effect kind of way, the other policy work that's happening at the state level and at the federal level. It's like when there's pushback on ending prohibition in states that still have it.
AnnaRae Grabstein:The fact that your guidelines exist is the kind of thing that people want to be able to point to and say, hey, look look at the ways that our industry is trying our best to be responsible stewards and to push consumer safety forward. And here's how we're doing it, even if even if you as a government entity, are not going to help us get there. So I think it's, I think it's clear why it matters. I would, I would love to to hear what the way that you guys have created this. I know that there's seven key pillars and I think it would be interesting to interesting to go through them and talk about these guidelines and just examples of how they're being utilized in the world. Just, I'll give it to you on that let's hear about the guidelines.
Amy Deneson:For sure. Thank you for this. And you're right, it is table stakes. It's so table stakes that when I started to put together the cohort that originated the first edition of the guidelines last year, a mix of leadership who's been part of Big Beverage and also Alcohol and Spirits, as well as quick service restaurants and how do we advertise to families, but also notably like, not children. And then also people who are pros within the media and the creative space, and then also three sets of lawyers who have been part of crafting these regulations and these attestations within their own media organizations, and so brought together a cohort of 10 people to help craft these guidelines.
Amy Deneson:That, yes, you know, on the one hand set seven core pillars they do seem table stakes, but then no one else wrote them down right, and so, like we have to start somewhere, and so we were like, okay, if not us, then who? And so, when we set out with the guidelines? And, yes, the first one is we recommend that legal operators be informative and help drive access to regulated products and businesses. Like just so foundational that advertising serves to help people become aware of and go to regulated businesses. The second one is that it strictly complies with regulating the governing laws and rules within not only their state but also the municipality. When we start to get down into the advertising where placement actually shows up, we're talking about lat long zip codes, municipalities of where these placements are going to show up and be distributed.
Ben Larson:Can we pause on the second one for real quick, just because, early in the deck it kind of talks to the evolving nature of the cannabis industry and it's no secret to everyone that, like right now we're in a very interesting time about the legality and what's uh, what's allowed in in different States gets. It gets pretty muddy, uh, depending on where you're standing or or what part of the industry you're operating in, and and so like how is? How are you thinking about that? Like, what is the best way, especially for, you know, say, a cannabis company? And beverages are actually a good example, because you have beverage companies that operate in the regulated markets. In certain states they operate across hemp and then we won't talk about what they do outside of the country. But those are examples of companies that are trying their best to operate within the legal realm, but it's not always exactly clear what what regulations state.
Amy Deneson:Exactly, and hence the hence the point of wanting to be, you know, clear, but also you give.
Amy Deneson:There are two checklists in the guidelines that start to spark these conversations that are precisely around not only geo-targeting but also around age targeting and proof of audience. So, you know, really helping advertisers align with their media partners. And media partners do this all day long in mature businesses or're slicing and dicing streets right Of where they want to like show up. Or you know whether you know, as someone walks along a certain you know a part of Manhattan, that they get served an ad on their mobile phone that, like you know someone else you know walking along in Missouri, like St Louis, like would never see that ad right. And so the idea you know, just as a very like big idea for a second to boil it down is that targeting precisely is what media does, and so that's not a new conversation for your media partners when you're working with them directly or you're working with an agency that specializes in cannabinoids or specializes in a type of media that you're interested in. This is an everyday conversation. That's standard. What needs to be applied to it is what's legal for cannabis, and so, you know, with regulations, anybody that's operating has to be, you know, borderline obsessed with what's possible within their markets. But then there are also new tools that are coming online. One partner that we were excited to talk about in its infancy is Cannabis Regulations AI, which is using the ChatGPT foundation in order to keep regulations up to date and also in a chatty function of what's possible in New York or what's possible in Maryland and to help become a resource and then link to where they can find out precisely what's possible.
Amy Deneson:But, generally speaking, this is a conversation first with a advertiser's legal team. And what are they comfortable? You know, how comfortable are they with advertising and the paid channels, which do have a very different set of standards than, say, an organic or an owned or a PR and earned media channel? And so first it's legal, and so there's checklists within legal to make sure, within the guidelines, to make sure that people are having those conversations. But then, secondly, with media, is really looking to say I have to be X amount of feet from a school or I have to be, you know, within this municipality and having those very nuanced conversations? And then, within those, within this, the creative needs to include this disclaimer in order to be here. So with people it becomes. It is complicated. I'm not in any way shying away from the complication of it, but there are tools, there are resources and there are ways to guide through the conversation so that we can make sure that we're being compliant, but also as streamlined, as efficient as possible.
Ben Larson:Makes sense. Yeah, very good, thank you, let's keep going. Number three yes.
Amy Deneson:So three is all about adult use intentionally, intentionally being not only targeted through the channels but also creatively to appeal to consumers of legal age. We certainly are very aware of 18 plus in hemp derived conversations in most environments, 21 plus for most. But then also leading to the next one with the fourth pillar, is that we also want to make sure that we are honoring our medical patients and our medical programs and acknowledging, not that we're advertising to children by any means, but that children are affected within those publications, reaching their caregivers, reaching their doctors and their practitioners to know that this is legal and available for the patients within their care.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So let's talk about this a little bit, like I want to double click on this whole thing about, first, the pillar number three, about, uh, about not advertising to children and focusing marketing, um, uh, for people that are legally permitted to use these adult use products. This is like an endless debate when you are working with a creative team in cannabis and whether you're designing packaging or designing an ad, there's this spectrum like full spectrum, like your guidelines are named. There's a spectrum of opinions about does this appeal to children or not, and there doesn't seem to be same opinions. There isn't. It's not a mathematical equation, it's not like this plus this equals appeals to children.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Um, we've started to see some States say things like if someone is famous and they've been in a movie that is PG or less, or bright colors or cartoon characters or animals or caricatures, all of those things count as appealing to children. Do you guys wade into this debate of helping people to figure it out? Is there an AI out there that we can blast a piece of creative to and be like do kids like this? How do we answer that question?
Amy Deneson:It's really nuanced, and this is where I think we're going to still need to rely on us humans in all of our holistic feeling, thinking, breathing, concerned, but also creative selves.
Amy Deneson:Is that, you're right?
Amy Deneson:There's no, you know, there is no template, for this will just not appeal to children.
Amy Deneson:You know, one of our, you know one of our stances that we took is that we featured our elders and like, demonstrably appealing to our elder population and the intention there. But, like to your point, we can learn earlier too, of like, we've seen councils come in in order to help self-regulate and to inspire and to give good direction and also to and also to build confidence with our regulators that we can learn from tobacco, we can learn from alcohol, we can, honestly, we can learn from how sugar is advertised, and so I do think that there's lots of lessons that we can take in and apply, and the less you know I'm not answering your question directly because there's no template, um, but what we have to do is bring our full self and and our best self, uh, to the table, to to realize and to affect that we know that it's not helpful, um, for for children to consume cannabis, and so how do we do our very best to keep it out of their hands.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, what comes up for me as we're talking about this is thinking about Juul and what happened with Juul and teenagers getting so excited and even the people that were inside Juul, like the documentary and Netflix shows, shows and some they didn't set out to market to kids. It's just that the marketing that they created, that they tried to make hip and cool for adults, happened to also appeal to teenagers and um and and that it's just complicated consequences that come from that. Okay, well, let, well, let's, let's keep going.
Amy Deneson:But it's also, it's important for us to be, you know, in partnership with our point of sale as well. And so there is, there is just the reality that it that we all need to be part of, of protecting our kids and that, you know, even if something did, you know, unintentionally, appeal just to make sure that they're not sold to to or that they don't have access to it through unregulated means, is the most we can do as a community.
Ben Larson:Makes sense.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Tell us about number five.
Amy Deneson:Yes, and so onwards to number five is that we really want advertising and marketing to represent the diverse cultures and experiences that are connected with this plant and product.
Amy Deneson:So really to emphasize that, for you know, for all of vernacular and and vibrancy that's connected with the plant through, and so you know, one thing that was really important for us is to bring out a Spanish version of our campaign, and so that also launched this year and we're so excited to see it picked up in Puerto Rico and also celebrated through some of our predominantly Spanish speaking communities.
Amy Deneson:And then the last is, or the sixth, excuse me, the sixth is that we, within the cannabis space, and as we're talking about you, know our products, whether we have to activate our creativity to get around regulations, which I've seen some really fantastic examples of that, and we also include case studies within the cannabis sector, but also, or, excuse me, within the full spectrum guidelines, but also Clio's, as we mentioned before, has a whole cannabis award section.
Amy Deneson:So if you're looking for inspiration, but to really look at not only how do we creatively do this to get the message out, but also do have creative advertising and marketing that we're proud of and that creativity is so connected with this plant and the effects of it, and so how do we bring that to life through our advertising? And then, lastly, seven, which I know is a bit of a lightning bolt, is that advertising strive to be green, and I'm not talking literally the color palette that's certainly been adopted and used, but we do everything, within regulations and compliance, to make sure that we're taking care of our earth, taking care of the world that this plant requires in order to grow and do everything we possibly can through our advertising efforts to not create more waste and to make sure that we're efficient and cognizant of our environment through our promotional efforts.
Ben Larson:I really appreciate this and the seven pillars do make a lot of sense as like guiding principles. As we got deeper into the list, there was a couple where I'm like, okay, that really definitely makes sense from the media council's perspective and I just, you know, the more diverse that the industry becomes, I think there's an opportunity for brands to be more hyper-focused. Really, I think it was the fifth pillar that we're talking about diversity and cultures and that kind of stuff. I'm thinking of a particular Americana brand that Anna Rae and I have talked about in the past and you know how does that kind of fit into into this narrative where brands, as the industry grows, may choose to be hyper specific in who they are selling their brands to certainly, and we're going to see it.
Amy Deneson:We're going to see not only um, specificity, um, and segmentation is a marketing word of brands appealing and I think that that is going to be great.
Amy Deneson:And as we get more and more variety and have whether it's through flavor profiles, whether it's through where their you know products are able to be sold, I think we're going to see lots of appeal and specific focus on wanting to appeal to.
Amy Deneson:You know, let's call it, you know women in this, you know, within this segmentation, or you know people that you know that I the one product I have to say that I absolutely adore, that I love that's come into the Illinois market and it's through our founding board member, alison Disney, who is also with our, our creative agency of record, sister Mercy, and part of the really building this campaign from the creative side of it is her new company, mix Mix, which is flavored infused sugar essentially, and so it's a product that can be added either to mocktails or to ramen and it's a spicy ginger is the flavor that I'm thinking of right now.
Amy Deneson:And so you know, as a product and the adaptability that it has, but then also for how it could be included in different products, I think is just going to be, you know, back to the earlier point of delicious is going to be embraced in different ways and appeal to different people, um, and the product is, is already so uh, uh, such a variety, um, from flour to what I just mentioned, which is, you know, flavoring, uh, infused flavoring, so like it's gonna be fun, yeah yeah well, and I want to just call out to anyone who's listening that you should definitely go and download the whole, the whole guidelines.
AnnaRae Grabstein:It's over a hundred pages. The pillars are one small part. There is some really great stuff that we're not going to have time to talk about today. I love that that you guys created a section of just talking about words and how we use the words cannabis and marijuana and hemp and dope and whatever else, like thinking about how we come forward and who we are when we show up is really important, and the level of personal responsibility or individual business responsibility that it takes right now because of the time that we're in also can't be understated, and I think that the lessons from the past of other industries are one of the things that all come away with this conversation thinking about is like we need to realize that other industries fell in it and they made big mistakes and it put them in a situation where things became way more restrictive and if we want to make sure that we keep these channels open and growing as opposed to becoming more prohibitive, looking to the work that you guys are doing could be really useful for folks.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So I just want to thank you for sharing the work that you guys have been doing, and I think we are moving towards the end of our hour, and that means that it's time for our last call with you, amy, so we want to turn the mic over to you for your last call. What would you like to leave our viewers with today?
Amy Deneson:and listeners Anna Rae, thank you, ben. Thank you for not only amplifying the good work of the Cannabis Media Council, but also having this great conversation today, and so thank you for that. The one thing that I would love to punctuate, anna Rae yes, please download the guidelines. They're free for now for downloading, and so we are providing them at the CannabisMediaCouncilcom, at our website, and so please do dig into them, reach out to us with any questions. And then also, the last thing, as an appeal, is the Cannabis Media Council is 100% volunteer. Everyone is donating their time, their expertise, their network, their channels, money, media inventory to making these campaigns happen and these guidelines happen, and so, if you are in a place where you can donate to the council, we also accept donations at CannabisMediaCouncilcom. It's a tax-deductible donation through our partners at SEMA. And so thank you. Thank you for this great conversation and continuing to evolve to create this industry that we want to experience have.
Ben Larson:And another shout out to Joyce Sonali. She's been a longtime friend of the show.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Another woman leader guest of the show. She's the person that introduced me and you, ben.
Ben Larson:That is true, joyce. It all starts with Joyce, and also Amy. Now, thank you, amy. We'll put the link to the site in our show notes and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you, all right, anna Rae, we'll talk to you soon.
Amy Deneson:Thank you.
Ben Larson:All right, anna Rae, another one in the bag. That was fun. I'm excited to see what comes out of this. We need something equivalent to that Like this is your brain on drugs, like the frying egg in the pan.
AnnaRae Grabstein:The opposite Right.
Ben Larson:I think that's what they're doing Equal opposite. Yeah, exactly, very good. All right, everyone, what did you think? Let us know, put it in the comments, reach out to us, ask questions. We'll bring Amy in and have her answer them. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for continuing to promote the show liking, subscribing and doing all the things. Thank you to our teams at Wolf Meyer we got to meet the other one last week. That was awesome and then, of course, my team at Furtosa. Until next time, everyone, stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high. That's the show.
