High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
Hosts Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein serve up unfiltered insights, reveal their insiders' perspectives, and illuminate transformative ideas about the cannabis industry for people who want to make sense of it all.
High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
#055 - Devil's Lettuce Went Down to Georgia w/ Judson Hill of Fine Fettle
๐ฟ ๐๐๐ฏ๐ข๐ฅ'๐ฌ ๐๐๐ญ๐ญ๐ฎ๐๐ ๐๐๐ง๐ญ ๐๐จ๐ฐ๐ง ๐ญ๐จ ๐๐๐จ๐ซ๐ ๐ข๐: ๐๐ง๐ฉ๐๐๐ค๐ข๐ง๐ ๐ญ๐ก๐ ๐๐๐๐๐ก ๐๐ญ๐๐ญ๐'๐ฌ ๐๐๐ง๐ง๐๐๐ข๐ฌ ๐๐๐๐ง๐ ๐ฐ๐ข๐ญ๐ก ๐๐ฎ๐๐ฌ๐จ๐ง ๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ฅ ๐ฟ
Join Ben and AnnaRae this week on High Spirits as we delve deep into Georgiaโs newly launched cannabis program with Judson Hill, the Georgia Market President for Fine Fettle, one of the stateโs six licensed operators. This episode will explore the current landscape of cannabis in Georgia, the emerging dynamics between cannabis and hemp, and what the future holds for patients and consumers in the state.
๐ ๐๐ฏ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ง๐ต๐ถ๐ ๐๐ฝ๐ถ๐๐ผ๐ฑ๐ฒ:
Georgiaโs medical cannabis market is just sprouting, presenting unique opportunities and challenges. Judson Hill brings his insider perspective on navigating this nascent industry, from the legislative battles to the operational hurdles. We'll discuss the size, functionality, and potential growth of the market, and how Fine Fettle is positioning itself to serve Georgia's patient community.
๐ก ๐ช๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ฌ๐ผ๐'๐น๐น ๐๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฟ๐ป:
๐๐ข๐ณ๐ฌ๐ฆ๐ต ๐๐ท๐ฆ๐ณ๐ท๐ช๐ฆ๐ธ: Insight into the current state of Georgia's cannabis program and its future trajectory.
๐๐ข๐ฏ๐ฏ๐ข๐ฃ๐ช๐ด ๐ท๐ด. ๐๐ฆ๐ฎ๐ฑ: Discussion on the interplay and competition between the cannabis and hemp markets in Georgia.
๐๐ต๐ณ๐ข๐ต๐ฆ๐จ๐ช๐ค ๐๐ฏ๐ช๐ต๐ช๐ข๐ต๐ช๐ท๐ฆ๐ด: Learn about Fine Fettle's approach to lobbying, education, and market differentiation in a state with a complex regulatory landscape.
๐ ๐ ๐ฒ๐ฒ๐ ๐๐๐ฑ๐๐ผ๐ป ๐๐ถ๐น๐น:
A native Atlantan and forward-thinking leader, Judson Hill is at the forefront of introducing medical cannabis to Georgia. With a background in fundraising and developing sales organizations across various industries, Judson now focuses on lobbying, government affairs, and educating Georgians about the benefits of medical cannabis. His work is pivotal in shaping a responsible and patient-centered cannabis market in his home state.
๐
๐ช๐ต๐ ๐ง๐๐ป๐ฒ ๐๐ป?
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving cannabis industry, particularly in states with new or expanding programs. Whether youโre a patient, provider, industry stakeholder, or simply a curious listener, Judsonโs experiences and insights offer a comprehensive look at what it takes to launch and lead a cannabis operation under complex regulatory conditions.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 55 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and with me, as always, is my co-host with the most, anna Rae Grabstein. We have an incredible show today for you. We are going to be talking about Georgia and the regulated cannabis market down there, the opportunity, the size of the prize and the influence of the hemp industry. But before we get there, I'm going to try to get my brain back into work mode. I've been on vacation for a little bit here. Anna Rae, why are you looking at me so funny?
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, we just got on a video to record this and you have no hair. I have no hair I have no hair. What's going on?
Ben Larson:um midlife crisis? No, um, I saw you last thursday and I had hair. Yeah, and we and yeah, and we were in the middle of my my team week and friday morning, ryan pinsky, our VP of sales, shaved my head in front of everyone, so that's why I now have no hair.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Was there a bet Like why did Ryan shave your head?
Ben Larson:Yeah, there was a bet. We had some sales targets and he happened to do a few in a row. Call it the hat trick, and now I wear a hat a lot.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Amazing. I love it. Well, I bet your team got a real kick out of it. Are you loving it? Are you going to let the hair come back?
Ben Larson:You know, it's something I've done once in my life. I did it once and back in college, and I've been wanting to continually simplify my life and not having to do my hair in the mornings is a nice benefit, and I'm right now. I'm just pulling on reactions from people to see whether it's something that I'll maintain or not. It's a it feels like 50, 50 right now and it's it's strongly divided between men and women. I find that a lot of my guy friends are like oh, it looked pretty cool, like it looked like a you know an assassin or something. And I'm like, oh, it looked pretty cool, like it looked like a you know an assassin or something. And I'm like, oh, I can rock that. And then my wife doesn't want to be married to an assassin, apparently.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, I I'm going to take your wife's side on this. I think you had pretty decent hair, you would. We weren't losing it, there was plenty of it. So I'll I'll look forward to to whatever you, whatever you decide, and support your decision.
Ben Larson:Fair enough. Yeah, how was your week?
AnnaRae Grabstein:This week has been really good Super busy, lots of fun stuff going on with work, but, honestly, the highlight of my week. I have to give a shout out. If you're a San Francisco person, you probably have heard of Broke-Ass Stewart. Broke-ass Stewart has a website on the internet but he writes about San Francisco Bay Area news. He had a travel show for some time and he has a column in the newspaper.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And Broca Stewart went to college with me at UC Santa Cruz many years ago and in 2013, he was trying to do some research on old time San Francisco and he reached out to me because he knew that I had grown up there and that I had kind of multi generations of family in the city. And he interviewed my grandfather in 2013, who was 94 at the time, and it ended up being about six months before my grandfather passed away and he never ended up doing anything with the interview and I had forgotten about it. And yesterday he reached out to me and said hey, I've got this interview from your grandfather. I figure your family would like to have it. And last night I'm getting chills thinking about it I got this 94-minute recording of my grandfather telling the story of our family and how we all ended up in California in the 1850s through a crazy immigration story that included taking a boat to Panama and walking across what is now the Panama Canal because it wasn't there, and then taking boats up the West Coast to land in California.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And it was just really moving and cool and, especially in light of the fact that you and I are making audio content together, it was fun to get to hear the power of audio and how there's so many things that I heard in that recording last night as I was listening to it that, um, I think many people in my family had forgotten and um, and I just am excited to keep recording and I want to start doing more recording and making sure that all the stories get told, because it's just so powerful when they come back around. So big shout out to Broke-Ass Stewart for coming around 11 years later and giving this gift to my family. Just wanted to shout that out.
Ben Larson:That is so cool. I love that and and, yeah, yeah, the whole audio format's been been really cool. My, we were getting ready to go on a road trip this past weekend and my son comes out with his iPad. It's like Dad, look what I'm listening to. And it was our most recent episode and I was like he's seven years old. It's just funny that he's listening to our cannabis business news roundup.
AnnaRae Grabstein:My sister also says this is his favorite podcast, but he doesn't really listen. Our audience is pretty niche focused on cannabis, so they're all probably bored hearing our family stories, so let's dive in to the cannabis content for the week. You know Georgia. I had been seeing our guest post on LinkedIn about his journeys launching cannabis in Georgia and was really excited to learn more about it and reached out, and I didn't even realize that you had this pre-existing relationship with Judson and that you guys had been friends for many years.
Ben Larson:So what's the backstory? Yeah, we've been through the ups and downs of the industry. So Judson and I met, I think, back in 2016. The California market was just getting going. There was a lot of hopes and dreams and venture capital was flowing in and then we slowly together realized the realities of the Prop 64 in California and how hard it was going to be to build businesses. But Judson was leading sales over at Trellis, which was a seed-to-sale compliance platform, Eventually sold to Akerna, which was MJ Freeway and all that.
Ben Larson:But, yeah, not the acquisition story that we were all hoping for in our tech, in in kind of our tech oriented minds, but it was the. It was the start of something beautiful and, you know, really got to kind of be in the trenches alongside Judson, spend some time in the trellis office, but more than anything, you know, just have that kind of shared origin story when it comes to the cannabis industry. And then we've both gone in our own separate directions but have remained in touch and always super happy to see him when we run into each other at MJBiz and other events.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Awesome. Well, let's bring him on. I'm excited to introduce Judson Hill. He is the Georgia market president for Fine Fetal, which I would say is a MSO, a multi-state operator operating in a couple states and we'll hear more from Judson about which ones those are. But Judson comes from a long history in cannabis. He worked, like Ben mentioned, at Trellis early on. He's also done a lot in the investment and business development space and is now hands-on boots on the ground operating in Georgia. So, judson, we're super stoked to have you here and to have you teach us and share with us about Georgia. Appreciate y'all having me Well, so let's dive in. Can you tell us a little bit about what's going on in Georgia and what are you doing there?
Judson Hill:I can do that. So I mean, what's going on today which is exciting is our program actually made the cover of the AJC, which is the Atlanta Journal Constitution, so pretty big day for us, and the headline was that the program is growing and it's easier to access cards. So those are probably our two top goals. And then I'm currently in our third dispensary, which will be opening this coming Friday, which is in Athens, georgia. Athens is where UGA is. For anyone that doesn't know, um, anyone that's not a football fan, uga is the number one in the preseason, has won the national championship a couple of years, um years in a row before last. So it's pretty cool that we actually have medical cannabis here in Georgia opening up a new store. As we're headed back to school and just yeah, happy to be back in my home state, home state, spreading medical cannabis.
Ben Larson:Before we get into the cannabis side and the patients and the opportunity there. Judson, you and I met in California. I think a lot of people know you from your time in Southern California, but your roots in Georgia are quite deep. Can you shed a little light on that?
Judson Hill:Yeah, definitely. I mean, like you said in the intro, we spent some time in Oakland back in the day, which is fond memories of the glory days of cannabis. But yeah, I was born and raised here in Atlanta, georgia. Haven't lived here since I was 18. And I was happily settled in SoCal. Not sure when, if ever, there would be a chance to move back for cannabis. My kind of interesting connection to the state and the program is that growing up my dad was a longtime Georgia state senator. Prior to that he was a federal prosecutor out of Macon, georgia, which is conveniently where our cannabis cultivation facility is. So that is ironic justice at its finest. And then I was following the program while he was in office.
Judson Hill:We can get into the details, but it's actually been around since 2015, when my dad was still in office and I was just getting involved in the industry in California. We share the same name. At that time it was kind of stay out there. Don't associate your name or our name with cannabis um, but also kind of picking my brain as they were starting to put together the regulations.
Judson Hill:So, um yeah, I guess the long story short is I've been following the program from afar for the past nine years and I can get into the details of what's going on here in georgia now. But uh, here we are finally actually opening up stores selling cannabis to people in Georgia, and I'm happy to be involved at the ground level.
Ben Larson:Yeah, it's funny. I can imagine being your father and hoping that you don't become too popular and start showing up in search engine results.
Judson Hill:Yes, definitely. There was a case to be made for that, but conveniently we're actually working together now and right after this. I'll be hopping on a Department of Health public hearing with my dad working on behalf of the patients of Georgia. So people come around every time.
Ben Larson:That's amazing, amazing.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, let's talk about the patients of Georgia. So I know Georgia has a population of 11 million. It's the eighth largest state in the US by population and so how many patients are in Georgia today that are eligible to come to a dispensary?
Judson Hill:Yeah, great question. I mean, according to the AJC, the number is at 23,000. It's been, I guess, privately held, but I'm pretty sure we're right about 23,000. And it's grown at a little over a thousand patients a month for the past six or seven months since I've been back. So, despite seemingly low numbers, I feel optimistic that one there's a huge opportunity with 11 million people and we're just getting started, but also that it is growing pretty quickly over the past few months, all things considered, especially when we were talking earlier about kind of the growth rates of Florida as a comparison, where Florida didn't have 25,000 patients until they added flour. We still don't even have the ability to sell flour. We've got a lot of hurdles. So I think we're in a pretty good spot for how early on we are in the program.
Ben Larson:Yeah, interesting Also beating out the early numbers in Texas. So which was?
Judson Hill:Hannah Rae and I were talking about that program as well. But yeah, I think Texas, florida, georgia I mean similar states and large Southern states and also similar program structures of sorts. We had more the direction of florida so?
Ben Larson:so you mentioned not being able to have flour. What, what? What is kind of the makeup of of the products that are being offered in in the shops, and kind of is it? What's the next big growth mechanism for you after that? Is it? Is it allowing for flour or is it creating more qualifying conditions for the cards? What's holding up the growth?
Judson Hill:Yeah, great question. I mean I guess I can lay the framework of the program as a whole and then answer that. But there's six vertically integrated operators Fine Federal, we're actually the third group to market, so there's only three of us even in operation. We obviously have a cultivation, like I mentioned, down in Macon, Georgia, which is about an hour and a half south of Atlanta. Grow our flower there, real full THC, beautiful flower. We also have extraction and then manufacturing there. So what's holding up the program is it's still called a low THC oil program, not really the sexiest name from a marketing perspective.
Judson Hill:But the cool part is we are able to make products. Here's some of our capsules bombs. We have trochies which some may say is similar to a gummy, but anyways, there's some, I guess, regulations around what type of products we can make and even how we can advertise them. But those are, you know, 20 milligram ingestible products, full THC. But there's just a lot of nuance, I guess, in the naming of the program and then the confusion that causes across the state, with just a general lack of awareness.
Judson Hill:And then for people that do find out about it, they say why would I want to go get a medical card to get low THC oil? When I mean, I grew up in Georgia, cannabis has been around for a while. I'm sure people know where to find it. And then also, you know, to the other point of the hemp conversation over the past handful of years you know hemp is proliferated at the state of Georgia. Smoke shops in every shopping center and you can walk in and you see all these California branded products and I see mushroom vapes, I see all types of craziness. So it's just kind of trying to educate people about why go get safe, tested product from fine fettle and you know what exactly it is. We can do.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So it's, it's a big. It's a big move to go into a state and set up operations, build the assets and the infrastructure that you all are building when there are so many restrictions and at the same time, there's a long-term vision that has to be baked into something like that how Florida started also with a low THC program and then the patient counts started to really increase exponentially as soon as form factors were added to the program to make it more competitive with the guy down the street that someone's getting their flour from, or now the hemp dispensary down the road. I think that there's got to be some kind of internal discussions with you all at Fine Fetal about that, Like how do you see market growth? What are your expectations in terms of kind of short-term wins versus what you think the market is worth ultimately to you and the impact you can have?
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, I mean we definitely discussed that and I guess I didn't really address that part of Ben's question.
Judson Hill:But the immediate goal would be progressing to just a true medical program outside of, you know, the low THC oil, as I said.
Judson Hill:So, whatever not having a 5% THC oil cap, which is how the regulations read Again, volume may not be considered in that so we're able to create products that have 5, 10, 20 milligrams of THC, but it's pretty confusing to explain that.
Judson Hill:So, first step, and again to your point on Florida. We saw this where Florida was another state that had a low THC oil program at first in 2014. Then in 2016, it became a full-strength THC. In 2016, it became a full-strength THC and what I see as a plus for us is they only had 26,000 patients then and that was at full THC versus we have 26,000 with the low THC oil. So I think, if we can remove that name, get a true medical program that then allows us to open up to do things like flower and vape and what have you? Because as long as it's called a low THC oil program, no one wants under 5% flour or vape, I guess. To the volume component, not to get too scientific, but you can get creative with how much 5% THC oil you put in a capsule or a topical or a gummy that makes it a full, you know full strength experience.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Exactly, that would be step one Well yeah, and so you know you're no stranger to making policy change. Especially you told the story about your dad being involved early on, just from his seat in the legislature. What is the environment like in Georgia and the appetite for actually changing the program Like? What is the likelihood that this is going to happen in the next year, or is it going to take three? How do you look at it?
Judson Hill:Yeah, no, I mean, that's a great question. I think that the root of it is that South is obviously slow on cannabis and while there has been this program there hasn't really been much support for its growth. So it's kind of interesting for me, obviously, coming from California. You look at, you know larger states that have gotten a lot of press, good or bad, over the past few years, like New York or a fine federal. I mean, we're based in Connecticut and also in Massachusetts. But, point being, with all of those states, despite all the issues with the regulations, I think the intent at least was they were looking to create a program. Maybe people had good ideas, bad ideas, or were trying to progress it, george. On the other hand, I don't know if there is a genuine intent to create or expand a program at the legislative level. To the point.
Judson Hill:On my dad, I mean the original genesis of it was back in 2015. I'm sure we all remember stories in a lot of states from like Colorado, and only a few states had cannabis of parents traveling to these states to get medicine for their children that had epilepsy and things of this nature, and it was a pretty brash way of doing it. But you know, back then, when my dad was in office, they would bring these families in and children would be having seizures on the floor of the Senate and that was kind of the brute force way of saying you guys need to at least have a medical program. And fortunately they at least were able to recognize okay, we need to have a medical program. And that's kind of what created where we're at now Florida in mind. I think it's a great analogy for us of how the state and the program can grow. But when you're thinking from a legislative level and Florida is on the ballot to go recreational, in the fall.
Judson Hill:What they may say is that's exactly what we don't want. It's kind of you give a mouse a cookie as the program starts and then you add this and you add that and then all of a sudden it's on the ballot for recreational. So, yeah, we kind of have to work to change the stigma around cannabis and, you know, start with really the medical focus of the program and just expand from there. But yeah, I don't think there's any rush from the legislative level for there to be flour or anything that resembles a recreational program at the current or anything that resembles a recreational program at the current.
Ben Larson:This is interesting, right, because there's a lot of conversations about the dynamics between cannabis, hemp, the legislature and and here the. It seems like there's a very strong cannabis stigma, right. I'm curious as to how people are perceiving this proliferated hemp market in Georgia that you were mentioning in comparison to some of the other southern states, because Kentucky and Tennessee these southern states are ratifying the hemp marketplace and creating a pathway for it, while maintaining that cannabis is still the devil's lettuce. It kind of breaks the brain. What is the sentiment that you're coming up against in the Georgia legislature?
Judson Hill:Yeah, I mean I guess just by whatever what I said before of it seemingly not optimistic for them allowing the program to progress. One, I'm obviously here because I believe that we will progress it. But on the hemp side and how I see it all related is there was actual um, pretty large legislation that passed in the spring here in Georgia, related to hemp specifically, and that was a lot to curtail, I guess, this proliferation of unsafe, untested product. And, as we've obviously talked about a bunch of times over the years, ben, I am a supporter of anyone that does cannabis the right way, on either side hemp or regulated and I don't think there should be any fighting amongst the two. The hard part on the hemp side is just that when you walk into these smoke shops, most of what you see is not safe or well done. So that regulation is going to basically require anyone that's selling the hemp products to have a retail license and again, compared to what we have to do on the regulated cannabis side, it's pretty easy.
Judson Hill:It's like a thousand dollar license.
Judson Hill:But at least put these processes in play, where every part of the supply chain will have to have a license.
Judson Hill:And then the main thing is they're making it explicit that you can't have any smokable hemp products. They're allowing, disallowing delta-8 and all of these things, and that just went into effect over the summer and they're giving them a 90-day grace period until they start enforcing it. Point being, all of these smoke shops should be getting shut down to some degree or their supply chain getting turned upside down, at least from the vendors they're purchasing product from. That aren't doing it the right way, and all that to be said is I would like to think that presents the medical cannabis program as the safe, obvious place to go to get access to these stronger products. Sell hemp beverages, edibles, more low-dose products through the smoke shops or through the liquor stores or the grocery stores, and make the dispensaries your go-to for that stronger THC product, and then that would open up the argument for adding flour and vape, because then you need to provide some place for patients to access flour and vape, as I think most people understand that a lot of medical patients find that to be the most effective medicine.
AnnaRae Grabstein:I have to say it's pretty wild to be thinking about the stigma that you all are facing in pushing this program forward in Georgia, just considering that politically there's a lot of discussion, that cannabis has now become a bipartisan issue and even right next door in Florida, there are polls that are suggesting that it's possible that the adult use ballot measure will pass and they're going to need over 60%, suggesting that it's possible that the adult use ballot measure will pass and they're going to need over 60%.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So I think it's hopeful that the good word will spread and that Georgians will become more open-minded and it will create a good environment to build some new economic opportunities and business opportunities for companies like fine fettle and for the investments that y'all are making notice, I said y'all there to really pay off. I'm curious, um, like what that looks like for for fine fettle in georgia. Like what is the? What's the footprint of your cultivation? How many employees do you guys have right now? How many are you thinking you're going to hire? Like, yeah, for the people who live and work in Georgia, what kind of opportunity is this from a business opportunity? What's the talent pool like?
Judson Hill:I mean honestly, like I said.
Judson Hill:Georgia native that's really, what gets me the most excited is the ability to give back to the community and also empower a lot of folks that have been damaged by the war on drugs. There's a real dichotomy in Georgia I'm sure most people across the country are probably familiar that we're a pretty hot-button swing state across the board politically right now. We're a pretty hot button swing state across the board politically right now. And to your point about the stigma, I think we talked about this before but I would plug all of our mutual friend Hirsch Jane in that episode that he did earlier this year to talk about red state weed, where I see optimistically that traditionally more Republican leaning states in the South or across the country are a bit more laissez-faire from a regulatory point of view and business-friendly. So I see it as a real plus once we get past the stigma and I frankly think you know people on both sides of the aisle smoke cannabis. It's just unfortunately, maybe the more, the more right leaning have been a bit closeted about it.
Judson Hill:This is me speaking firsthand. So, yeah, I believe that obviously they're cannabis friendly, they see the benefits, but it just has been taboo to say that out loud and that's really what we have to get past. I'm confident we will and then, once we do, I think the regulatory framework is frankly, better in a state like Georgia. I mean Georgia is actually the most well-run state financially, from a surplus at the government level, which is an interesting thing to think about. That makes it hard for us to lobby. Whatever the tax revenue is a huge driver in a lot of states.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Georgia's response is kind of we're good on taxes and we don't need your revenue, which is like okay, I applaud you, I'm a Georgian.
Judson Hill:That's not what they're saying in California or New York, but I think it's just going to be a lot more business friendly for us, even like working with the GMCC, which is our regulatory body. They've been very collaborative versus some other states that I've worked in where it's more kind of, you know, looking to poke holes in things, looking to cause problems. So, yeah, I'm really optimistic that I think it will be a huge boom for the economy. Georgia I mean agriculture is like a huge industry here. Obviously, cannabis is agriculture in my mind. So we're trying to align ourselves with the Georgia grown movement and help revitalize some of these rural areas of Georgia over time. Grow indoors, so there's not much revitalization of farm land, but we have a 50,000 square foot cultivation footprint, to answer your question. In Macon Our facility overall is like a couple acres and that includes, you know, extraction, production, all of the things. So we have enough space and production capability to service the whole 11 million people in Georgia right now, if we were to be able to do so.
AnnaRae Grabstein:I bet you're creating a lot of new jobs too same time.
Judson Hill:Yeah, well, like I said, we're up here about to open our third store in Athens. We're doing interviews, hiring folks, so pretty cool. I mean, retail is a huge hiring mechanism for us as we're able to open up I guess we didn't even touch on this like the retail structures were vertically integrated, but we're allowed to open five dispensaries to start, so each of the six groups got five. This will be our third that we're about to open within six weeks. So it's been quite busy for us the past couple of weeks and then after five, every new 10,000 patients in the program were able to open an additional dispensary. So it's a pretty unique and, I think, smart structure where it's like similar to Florida, but Florida didn't have that 10,000 mechanism. So it kind of lets someone like a True Leaf run off and make 140 stores. This kind of keeps the playing field level between the operators, where each of us gets a new store every 10,000.
Ben Larson:Okay so six licensees, five stores each, 30 stores total.
Judson Hill:If all of them do it, and then every 10,000 patients that you add.
Ben Larson:on top of that, each one of the licensees gets to open a new store, correct?
Judson Hill:And it's every 10,000 past 25,000. A lot of numbers there, but yeah, starting at 25,000, which we're about to pass, then every 10,000 from there, each licensee would get a new retail location.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And is it similar to Florida, with the vertical integration that you have to sell everything that you produce, or is there ability to do wholesale transactions between the licensees?
Judson Hill:That's a great question there is the ability to do wholesale transactions between the licensees. Considering we just opened our first store three weeks ago and there's only been two that were open before that. That hasn't occurred yet. But I mean I think it'll be an interesting opportunity.
Judson Hill:I mean we have, I guess, different like some groups make a transdermal patch where some people make a topical. You could make a case of you know, I'll carry your patch, you carry my topical. Or we could create different levels of you know sub brands within Fine Fetal, for example. So yeah, we've been thinking about that avenue. No one has made the first move to carry the other person's product, yet, considering how small the market, is so.
Ben Larson:With each benchmark of patients added, you know more dispensaries coming from the existing licensees. What about new licensees? What are some of the mechanisms for that, or are those yet to be identified?
Judson Hill:There's no mechanism written into place, and ray and I were talking about it a bit before, but, um, I mean, it's really at the discretion of the state and kind of just, I mean I'm biased, clearly, I would admit, but, um, from a supply demand standpoint, it's like it's funny, because so there's six licensees and they consider two of us large, which is truly even botanical. That's why they were able to open first, and we didn't even get into why, but the RFP was issued in 2020 and then six groups won. Everyone else decided to sue. That was four years later and finally we were able to start. You know, truly botanical science started opening last year and then our lawsuits were resolved. We all won 40 times over, but anyways, we just opened up stores. This year, we have 50,000 square feet. The other two groups have 100,000 square feet. So all I'm getting to is, between the three of us, we can grow a lot of cannabis and produce a lot of products, yet the patients aren't there yet.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So why would you?
Judson Hill:introduce more licenses that have to invest into the vertical integration, and I don't even think it's really worth someone doing that at this point in time, and that's probably why the other three groups haven't even started is they're frankly kind of putting it on us to build a patient base and looking to join in on the program.
Ben Larson:So long way of saying no mechanism yet. Yeah, I was when you were stating the numbers. I was trying to do quick mental math to see if it made economic sense like dividing up 10 000 patients a month amongst its licensed operators for new dispensaries, Like it seems like it dilutes pretty quickly and array like, as you look at these different marketplaces. It's how do these numbers stack up as far as being able to support dispensaries?
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, that's so interesting. You're reading my mind, so thank you. I think that what's at play here is this funny dynamic between the idea of free market capitalism, which is kind of an overarching tenant of the American kind of economic approach to business and entrepreneurship, versus these state-by-state limited cannabis opportunities that are absolutely not free market capitalism, because we have these closed system opportunities where what fine fettle sells or grows in Georgia they're not able to sell in their own store in Connecticut, and so there's a very closed opportunity and, as we've seen, lots of different states come on. The states that have chosen a more free market path, meaning not having a limit to the amount of licenses, have seen a massive amount of licensees come into the market, and then those businesses have really struggled to get to a place of even financial sustainability, let alone profitability, and that's why, time and time again, the winners seem to be in the states that have had strict license limits. And the challenge with that is it creates a have and a have nots of like. There are people that want to be able to participate in the market and they can't because they don't get one of these prized limited licenses.
AnnaRae Grabstein:But I think the upside is that it's a lot more likely that the investments that companies are making in markets like Georgia will hopefully pay off, because there's not so many licenses. That said, with a potential right now of 30 dispensaries and less than 30,000 patients, yeah, I would say that that doesn't sound like enough patients to support 30 dispensaries. But, judson pointed out, there isn't yet 30 dispensaries, there's not even close to that, there's less than 10. And my guess is that all of this work that we're all doing, like talking about this right now, but even better, this article that you said on the front page of an important news publication in Georgia, like we're going to see more patients get into this program and they're going to want to go to these dispensaries and the dispensaries will start to find more success. So, yeah, that's my take. Does that answer your question?
Judson Hill:Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with you. I mean that's why, like I said, we're opening our third store now, within six weeks, and then we're going to kind of pause and operate those three locations. Because I mean, prior to this I think Ben may have referenced it or you, but I helped start up a lending firm specific to cannabis companies where we were originally in California and I guess I got a very interesting point of view where my background is in business development. But I quickly learned about the risk side to consider within everything and not growth at all.
Judson Hill:Cause and I mean clearly, while we're here in Georgia I'm from here, but I saw that the best opportunity was quickly becoming in these newly emerging states and that's where I started to focus my attention Because, I mean, it's a noble cause to give licenses to everyone but, like as we've seen in again California or New York as examples, and also when Ben and I were in Oakland early on, that was kind of the birthplace of the social equity movement, which in theory I love, but also firsthand I saw people invest all they had to build these businesses to never have a fighting chance. So I think good intention not to keep playing on the devil's lettuce pun, but good intention is often you know the road to hell. So I see the case that more successful markets have been done in a limited license state and while it might be nice to think you know free markets went over, I've actually seen a lot of bad things and you know lost livelihoods come from California, for example. So I think that's definitely something to be considerate of.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So it sounds like the consensus is not lots of more licenses in Georgia anytime soon is what it sounds like. Yeah, I mean I think for now there was a case.
Judson Hill:Obviously, like I said, everyone that lost sued, such as America. There's no participation trophies here, unfortunately. Those were resolved and let's just, you know, actually start selling medical cannabis and see how the program works, as is. I think the greater focus needs to be on making it easier for patients to access the program itself and, like a lot of the work we're doing is even, for example, right after this, we're going on a hearing with the Department of Health where one of the positive legislations for our program was that cards were supposed to not be mailed or emailed to patients as of the last legislative session, but the regulatory body, department of Health, has decided not to do so, so we're having to even fight for law that was passed where, again, as long as it's difficult to get a card and patients don't even know about, it they're going to go to other avenues.
Judson Hill:They're going to go to other avenues and I really just want to drive you know people to get safe, tested product and make it easier for people to get in the program rather than worry about adding new licenses when there's plenty of cannabis in the state.
Ben Larson:So everything in, and forgive me if I've misheard this, but everything, each one of the licensees is vertically integrated, correct, you can transfer product from one to another. But the concept of a role player license hasn't yet been introduced, where, say, a beverage company can come in and manufacture and distribute to all the license holders.
Judson Hill:Correct. Right now there's just the six and you have to be vertically integrated.
Ben Larson:Okay, so there's some work to be done there in the future if we want the ability to have brands be able to come in and do stuff like that. We've talked about beverage in the past. Where do you imagine beverage entering the chat? Do you imagine it eventually being sold in dispensaries, or is this something where the low dose hemp channel continues to exist and we see broad distribution of it? Um, where do you imagine, uh, us seeing seeing this product?
Judson Hill:yeah, I mean I both personally and from a business perspective. I love the beverage opportunity, as we've talked about, and I think I mean if you go right now into certain liquor stores or gas stations or what have you, you know the hemp beverages are being sold and now that this legislation that I had mentioned about hemp products is in effect, it crystallizes that they are allowed. We are actually in a rulemaking period on that hemp legislation as well. I think I might have shared with you. They're proposing a five milligram cap, but I guess the point is like, now that it is at least crystallized, a lot of the large you know, ab, budweiser, miller, coors distributors are starting to look at and carry these products in Georgia and distribute them into liquor stores, which I think I mean I love to see, I'm sure, from all the beverages.
Judson Hill:From a Vertosa point of view, it's a great opportunity. So that is happening when it fits in, with fine fettle, I mean, I think for us to think about. I mean there's definitely a lot of regulated cannabis operators that are launching products into the hemp market because they see that opportunity. You know, personally I'd love to see, you know, maybe a tea or something of that nature in Georgia where we could get some exposure to that. There's no bet that's allowed in our dispensaries. Yet, though, to answer your question on that front.
Ben Larson:I need to connect you with Damien Webster at Bolt. They have some pretty fantastic infused teas.
Judson Hill:I love Damien and I love Bolt.
Ben Larson:There we go. Um, well, that's really cool and and there's, there's an opportunity still to get the higher dose products into the dispensaries. You know we see uncle arnie's and saint ide's um, you know, really killing it here in california with their 100 milligram offerings and and so yeah, I mean, I think for us that would be in the line of new products that we need to add.
Judson Hill:But I mean a side note. I think you may know Tyler Cook, who was from NUG back in the day.
Ben Larson:Yeah.
Judson Hill:It was awesome coincidence, where we've known each other in California for a while. He now heads up our product formulation in Macon, so I thought it was cool. He moved from the Bay area to South Georgia and I mean he's like, I think, back in the day in Oakland they're called him the the Willy Wonka of cannabis, but he's a trained chef. He can make everything from chocolate powder to have you.
Ben Larson:So he was. He was the Willy Wonka of Michigan for a little while. He had a brief, brief stint at Skyment and I know he created a lot of product up there. One of my favorite products that he created was the Nug Pops. It's kind of a recreation of the Otter Pops.
Judson Hill:We're trying to potentially launch those in Georgia as Tincture Pops.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Tincture.
Judson Hill:Pops, smart, clever. We have a very creative product formulator. I guess is the point, and you know, working to see what we can do to launch cool new products both within the current regulation, and then there needs to be progress as well. I mean flour and vape we talked about, but to do more traditional beverage we can do like a drink additive, which I mean personally. Like I said, I'm a big fan of the hemp beverages. I also am not drinking alcohol, so I love, like the idea of having a you know little drink additive which you could do within our medical program. So beverage definitely is a place I mean both within our dispensaries and in Georgia as a whole right now, like I said, I'm friends with some of the alcohol distributors and they're actively bringing in brands right now to start selling through the liquor store channels and such.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, as we're getting closer to the hour, I'm wondering if there's something that we haven't talked about so far that's really important for people to know about Georgia, who are listening and are curious about what this opportunity is all about, something that you're optimistic and excited about. Just want to make sure that there's nothing that we're missing here.
Judson Hill:I mean, I think we've we've talked on a lot, but what I'm, I mean, most excited about again is just the, the awareness that we're bringing to the program and really I mean getting patients. Medical cannabis is a cool thing that I, frankly, don't know if I've been a part of in all my almost a decade of cannabis has mostly been in, I mean the end of the California medical market, like Ben mentioned, which was a bit different than the medical market here.
Judson Hill:So it's really just a cool experience to partner with the advocacy groups who do a lot of work with veterans, for example, that have, you know, ptsd. They came back from mostly serving in, you know, the the Middle East, went to the VA, got hooked on opioids and fortunately some of them have found cannabis and you hear this time and time again. I mean that's just one example, but I would really like to highlight the patients themselves and it's just been super cool and rewarding, especially here in Georgia, to work with. You know other Georgians that really find the need for this. I mean, I believe in recreational access as well personally.
Judson Hill:but I think we often forget about the medical angle or at least I personally wasn't as thoughtful about it prior to kind of being in this super regulated medical market and it's very cool that cannabis provides that, you know, comfort and healing to people outside of also a fun time to people as well.
Ben Larson:It is an interesting dynamic between medical and recreational. We've been talking to a lot of doctors lately and they're having a hard time recommending products in the recreational markets or even outlets to go and ask for them. I know there's great brands out there and I think we talked about this a little bit on the last show. But having a true medical market to kind of lay a foundation that this is medicine and that here's like some high quality products that can be used as medicine, I think is really interesting. As mentioned, the california medical market was basically recreational. I think my doctor, my teledoctor, was like on the beach when I talked to him and, um, you know, I had my card five minutes later and you know, my back pain has gone away.
Judson Hill:Um, no, I mean, like you said, I also got my, my medical card in Venice Beach back in the day, and I mean personally.
AnnaRae Grabstein:I was in a whatever.
Judson Hill:I was T-boned by a semi truck 14 years ago and I do have back pain and I told that doctor and he was like, yeah, next, here's your card. I did also just get my card in Georgia. Actually, I got the call earlier this week, so that's exciting as well for intractable pain. But yeah, I mean, I think there's just a variety of conditions. I mean some maybe seemingly I am healthy life otherwise, but some people like really need the medicine every day and it's just super powerful to uh see that firsthand and, like our business, is a lot of partnering with the doctors, both.
Judson Hill:It is cool in georgia, I mean. What I would like to highlight for people is telemedicine is an option, so it's actually quite easy of a process to get a card. You could go online, set up an appointment, probably tomorrow, have a 15-minute consultation and, if you're qualified, get your card, um. But then also we partner with traditional doctors. So there's like medical cannabis doctors, um, but there's, you know, pain doctors, neurologists, all types of more traditional specialists which have patient base and they're starting to see how they can incorporate cannabis into their, you know, healing programs for their patients and it's just cool to be able to educate them but also learn from. You know, there isn't much research out there, but some doctors have found a way to get very informed on it and it's cool to learn all of that side of the science.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So I do have a question then following on that, as it relates to the product positioning that you guys are bringing to market, bringing to market In Connecticut and Massachusetts, where Fine Fetal is also operating. Those are adult use markets, but that still I think both of them maintain medical markets as well, kind of in parallel to the adult use and in the stores, like dual use programs. But in light of Georgia having such a medical focus and a patient focus, are you just basically bringing the products that fit the market to Georgia that the company already was making, or are you repositioning the way the products are described or the way the directions are Like? How are you adjusting if you are or if there is a need to better suit a more medical focused audience?
Judson Hill:Yeah, I mean, I guess the short answer is they're brand new pop products we've made specific to Georgia. I mean, some SKUs may overlap and Fine Federal we're based in Connecticut and I mean frankly why I think we won the license down here is Connecticut did start it out as a medical market and it was very pharmaceutical focused where even still you have to have a pharmacist in every dispensary in Connecticut. So, like fine fettle comes from a very medical way of looking at it and we have SOPs and processes within you know our retail structure that trains the team that way.
Judson Hill:But we make our products clearly here in Georgia. I referenced Tyler and while there's a small patient base, we can really get that feedback of what's working, what's selling, what do people want. So you know we're making new products on the fly, based on the response and the request of the patients, which is really cool. And again, the bomb is my favorite topical mentholhol, uh.
Judson Hill:So yeah, we can basically come up with whatever is needed and whatever, you know, we're getting the best response to and it's cool to be able to be that nimble, I guess yeah and my, my last question really goes back to the patients and just the qualifying conditions.
Ben Larson:Are there any like low-hanging fruit? That you see is is not yet a condition but needs to be yeah, I mean I guess on the condition front.
Judson Hill:You could always expand them or there's a case to be made to reduce them and say allow doctors to recommend cannabis at their discretion, because I frankly think the list of conditions is proven to be somewhat arbitrary. Is kind of the issue with the list of conditions. Intractable pain is 50% of our patient base and what I've seen in most medical markets is pain is the lion's share of the patient base. Ptsd makes up the other 25. So point being, if you don't have any pain or trauma, congratulations. You might not be a patient, but otherwise most people have some sort of pain and trauma.
Judson Hill:And then the more severe conditions, like you know AIDS, end stage cancer, ms. These are also listed out and I mean there are a handful of patients but that's a smaller share. I think things like you know, insomnia, anxiety, that would be great low-hanging fruit to add, that would capture more folks. But again, kind of the pain and the PTSD category ends up being kind of the gateway that most people qualify for if they have any types of ailments. Often overlap with those two Makes sense.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Judson, I want to thank you for coming on and sharing about the journey in Georgia so far. I think that we're going to keep paying attention. I think that there's a massive opportunity. I hope that the growth that we both believe could follow the path that we've seen in Florida and Georgia creates the opportunity that you guys seen in Florida and Georgia creates the opportunity that you guys are looking for, and that there's just a tremendous amount of success ahead. I want to move us to the last call, and this is our chance for you to make a lasting impression on our audience. So, judson, what's your last call?
Judson Hill:I appreciate y'all having me and I didn't give Ben a shout out, but I love the assassin luck. I mean I kind of hit on it before. But I would just recommend anyone spreading the word that Georgia does have a program and it is as simple as going online. You can Google Georgia Medical Cannabis Card medical cannabis card and the call to action is really just to go out and get your medical cannabis card if you are a Georgia patient. Until there's more numbers in the program, there's only so much progress that we can make.
Judson Hill:So it's kind of a chicken or the egg thing where a lot of people say, hey, I want flour, so until then I'm not interested, and it's really, I guess, kind of a collective unifying, I mean, amongst all cannabis advocates, you know, the hemp side of the industry, the regulated side, the flower smokers, the medical people. I think we need to have a united voice to make any change at a legislative level, whether that be local, in the state or the federal, and as long as there's infighting or a lot of conflicting nonsense, um, people will happily tune us out. So if I've learned anything, uh, trying to get things done at the political level, you have to be succinct and clear with your messaging, and I think we should all try and do that in the canvas industry oh man, feeling that on so many levels right now, whether it's california, the hill, missouri, you name it uh, we're going through it, but, uh, judson, really appreciate it.
Ben Larson:It's been awesome to be alongside you, uh, on your journey and really happy to see you back home and and doing the good work in georgia. Of all places. If I, if I, if you ask me about the opportunity in georg, georgia back in 2016, when we met in California, it would have felt. It felt like a long ways away, you know.
Judson Hill:Got my Chick-fil-A in hand. There, you go Get ready for football season. So it's a real thing.
Ben Larson:Amazing, amazing. All right, man. Well, we'll, we'll. We'll. Talk to you soon. Awesome, I appreciate y'all. Thanks, anna Rae. Another one in the bag, that's Georgia. Check it off the box. I love it. Where are we going next?
AnnaRae Grabstein:I am excited about Georgia. Atlanta is such a cool city and there's so much culture that's born there and I think that there's going to be waves that come out. I think there'll be cool brands that come out of Georgia eventually. But that's that's for. That's for a later show.
Ben Larson:And, more importantly, what do you think? Have you gotten used to it yet, or not? Not used to the?
AnnaRae Grabstein:assassin. Look, I support you whatever choice you choose to make in your life, but I'm going to also take sides with the wife on this one, all right.
Ben Larson:All right, I'm keeping tally. What do you think, folks? I'm keeping tally. What do you think, folks? Whether it's about Georgia or my hair, ring in. Leave a comment, share if your friends are interested about Georgia, less about my hair. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in, as always, for sharing, liking, subscribing, doing all the things. Thank you to our teams at Wolfmeyer and Virtosa for keeping the lights and mics on. Thank you to our teams at Wolfmeyer and Vertosa for keeping the lights and mics on. And, yeah, thank you for keeping us going and keeping the guests coming. And if you want to be on the show, if you think you have something important to say, reach out. It's not always going to be a yes, but it might be. Until then, remember folks, stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your spirits high Until next time. That's the show.
