High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
Hosts Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein serve up unfiltered insights, reveal their insiders' perspectives, and illuminate transformative ideas about the cannabis industry for people who want to make sense of it all.
High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast
#057 - Blunt Banter with Javier Hasse of Benzinga & El Planteo
Could the fragmented cannabis market in Latin America be the next big thing for savvy investors? Join us as we uncover the secrets of this untapped market with our special guest, Javier Hasse, the Managing Director at Benzinga and founder of El Planteo. In this episode, Javier shares his unique insights into the challenges and opportunities that exist within various Latin American countries, detailing how cultural acceptance and patient advocacy are reshaping the industry. With his extensive experience and a bestselling book on starting a cannabis business, Javier offers a wealth of knowledge you won't find anywhere else.
We also take a closer look at the essential role of cannabis conferences and how they serve as pivotal networking hubs. Hear firsthand stories about multi-billion-dollar deals and significant investments that have emerged from Benzinga's curated events. From the perspective of our hosts, we discuss the balance between professional travel and personal life, especially during the bustling conference season. With exclusive anecdotes, we highlight the distinct advantages of smaller, focused gatherings in fostering meaningful connections among industry professionals, investors, and businesses.
Lastly, we turn our attention to the latest trends and hurdles in the cannabis sector. Discover why THC-infused beverages are gaining traction and how brands like Cann are navigating the complex California market. We also tackle the recent delays in cannabis rescheduling decisions, evaluating the implications for investors and the broader industry. Despite the setbacks, there's a strong sense of progress and optimism as we explore the future of cannabis regulation. Tune in for a compelling discussion that spans from policy shifts to emerging market opportunities, providing a comprehensive view of the dynamic cannabis landscape.
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Hey everybody, Welcome to High Spirits. It's episode 57. And, as always, I'm joined today by NRA Grabstein. Hey guys, we are recording Thursday, August 29th, and we have an incredible show for you. Today we have one of the most prolific writers in the cannabis space. He's covered the industry for well over a decade now and everything from finance everything across North America, South America and beyond Javier Hesse. But we will get there soon. Anna Rae, how's your week going?
AnnaRae Grabstein:I'm having a great week. I have been coordinating a bunch of different cannabis events that I'm participating in in the next couple of months. It feels like conference season is coming up and I'm excited to get out of the weeds and off Zoom and in person with some friends Paula Flowers, Benzinga, MJ, Biz it's all coming.
Ben Larson:Conference season is coming.
AnnaRae Grabstein:So I'm excited for that. It's. It's fun to get to feel like we're all part of the community when we get together, Not just solving hard problems and spreadsheets.
Ben Larson:So yeah, that is true, that is true. But I've enjoyed taking a couple months off of like the heavy travel schedule. Like the summer has been kind of nice spend, spend at home with the family. Absolutely yeah, Balance right, yeah, got some planning to do, got some flights to book, I'm gonna. I'm gonna like, in this new season I'm going to try to stop waiting to the very last minute to book flights, because I have noticed that there's less options these days and I like having options when I book my flights.
AnnaRae Grabstein:There you go, and we're going to be planning a high spirits event in Vegas in December, so stay tuned to us. If you want to be there, be a part of it. But yeah, things are good. There be a part of it. But yeah, things are good. It's been an interesting time where there's still tremendous challenges in cannabis, but there's also little pockets of momentum and I keep kind of wandering into them and that's been nice. It's fun. I helped a group get a Minnesota application in a couple of weeks back and there's a lottery coming in Minnesota and the Maryland lottery that happened is bringing a bunch of new companies to kind of startup phase where they're going to be opening and launching. New Jersey continues to have new businesses that are launching like every single week. We're going to be talking with one next week actually.
Ben Larson:So yeah, I'm feeling like there's lots of places to have fun, lots of problems to be solved all the time absolutely well, I, you know I live most of my cannabis life in the beverage category and momentum is what you can describe our category with. So very grateful for that. Um, you know, as we kind of approach November, a lot of excitement just around the, not just the presidential race but how that's influencing the Senate and the House races. I was seeing an article this morning just about the 10 Senate races that could potentially flip the Senate a wave of sorts in order to do so, but just thinking about how that could change the trajectory of the legalization effort in that conversation. So, on the edge of my seat until November.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, in general, if any party ends up winning the House and the Senate and the president's seat, there's an opportunity for a lot more policy movement.
Ben Larson:And more so than the last time it happened, because it did happen, it just we did not use it. Well, yeah, totally.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, should we bring on our guest and just jump in?
Ben Larson:Absolutely, absolutely.
AnnaRae Grabstein:All right, well, I'm excited to introduce Javier. He is a seasoned reporter with over a decade of experience focused on cannabis, hemp, cbd, psychedelics. He's been writing for Forbes for over five years and he currently serves as the head of content managing director at Benzinga and CEO of the Spanish language news site El Planteo, which he founded, and CEO of the Spanish language news site El Planteo, which he founded. He has work that's appeared in all kinds of outlets that you have all read and seen, like CNN and Rolling Stone and Playboy and the Chicago Tribune, and more and more. He has written his first book, which is Start your Own Cannabis Business, and it's a bestseller, and he's got another book that's coming out in 2024, which we'll let him tell us about. He's been named as one of High Time's most 100 influential people in cannabis, and there is just so much more to say about him and we'll let him share more about himself. Welcome, javier. Okay, he's blushing.
Javier Hasse:Well, thank you Honestly, I'm done. Let's talk about something. Let's talk about this how you doing doing all right, doing all right man.
Ben Larson:So thank you so much for for joining us. Uh, after that long list that nra rattled off I I don't know how you have the time like. I'm just trying to like, I'm white knuckling and I know how busy things are at benzinga alone. But el planteo, which maybe a lot of us english speakers don't know the the breadth of it, it's, it's the most read uh, or most most read uh publication in the spanish-speaking cannabis world it is.
Javier Hasse:It's um, pretty, pretty impressive feed. I think, uh, you know, a credit to the entire team there. Uh, we got about 25 people working on it and uh, it's kind of my baby, uh, along with with my co-founders, natalia and cynthia, but uh, it's, it's something that that we love doing. Uh, I loved what you mentioned in your intro, right like you know, what defines cannabis is edge of our seats, problem solving and momentum, right Like the three things that you mentioned that were, you know, very determining to the cannabis space.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, I want to hear more about El Planteo, because I think that that might be new for a lot of our listeners, which tend to be US based, based on our data that we review. But tell us about what you're doing there and your journey to starting it as the CEO and founder, with your partners.
Javier Hasse:Well, it's interesting, right. I got to deliver a keynote speech tomorrow at an event called Media Party, right, and it's something that they do in New York and in Buenos Aires and Argentina, where I'm based, and I was thinking a little bit about the genesis and how it came to be, and I think we identified this gap in Spanish language content around cannabis. For many years, all we had were publications that spoke to the home grower, that spoke to the extreme cannabis enthusiasts, and when I get together with my friends, we smoke a joint, but we don't want to talk about weed all the time. We want to talk about a bunch of other things music, politics, cinema, whatever philosophy, right. And so we wanted to create a media outlet in Old Bunthill that spoke to that audience of cannabis consumers who are interested in a bunch of other stuff, not just how to grow it, the secrets or the best rains, but also, you know, its medical benefits, also music, also culture, gender issues. So, whatever you know, whatever kind of conversation you would have when you're high or you're stoned, whether you love video games or you love movies, when you're high or you're stoned, whether you love video games or you love movies.
Javier Hasse:And we also, you know, I think we accompanied this process that has been global the rebranding from marijuana the devil's lettuce to cannabis, right, and the most successful rebranding I've seen in my life. It's amazing, right. And you know, in my personal journey, you know I've experienced this. When I started writing in 2013 about cannabis, you know, my, my parents were like, oh you're, you're gonna mess up your, your career. Oh, my son works with medical marijuana. It's not the same as the thing that druggies do. And and as the rebranding from marijuana to cannabis, you know, really really took off and took on in society, they started to accept it. And you know, el Planteo was born from the desire to accompany that movement, that shift in perceptions, right, and in doing so, we managed to permeate the mainstream, right.
Javier Hasse:We have our content is on MSN and Microsoft News every day, of course, on Google News and Flipboard and shows up on Zynga and it's showing up on Yahoo Finance and the Spanish section of High Times with full of our content. And you know, it's, I think it's it's. It's been an interesting journey, for sure. Not one that I personally thought of, really. Just, some partners came up to me a few years ago and said, hey, we want, we want you to do what you did at Benzinga in Spanish. And I was like I don't know, I've never been a CEO before. What do I need to do? And they were like, just do it, just do it, you'll figure it out. And it's a learning process. I don't know what your experiences in leadership have been and if it was gradual, or one day you were kind of pushed to a position that was like way above what you'd done before.
Ben Larson:Well, it's funny.
Ben Larson:I've worked with a lot of early stage startups, a lot of times coming from the idea stage and outside of the cannabis industry, and oftentimes it'd be like, oh, it's a chef that loves to prepare meals and he or she wants to launch a food service delivery company, and the first day you have to tell them it's like you do know your life is going to be anything but cooking right, and he's like it could be built around the concept of what you love and that has to drive you, but you're going to be doing all the different things and largely people management, uh, is what it comes down to, and so, yeah, absolutely different.
Ben Larson:So you talked about the rebranding, and this is just a quick left turn, because there's been this kind of I feel like the rebrand within the industry has been executed and it's like everyone calls it cannabis, and now there's these alternative threads, starting where it's like oh, people are trying to bring back marijuana and in a multitude of different ways, one the one thread I've been seeing is that it's not racially charged and, in fact, it's whitewashing to call it cannabis, because it actually comes.
Ben Larson:You know, it's been called marijuana for millennia and it wasn't something that was created by the government Doesn't mean you can't apply a stigma to an existing word. Also, I've seen on the other side is you know, the hemp industry is trying to pigeonhole the regulated cannabis market into marijuana and saying cannabis is the umbrella that covers hemp and marijuana, which I guess technically does. So. As someone who has a foot in the mainstream through your writing, with Forbes and books and whatnot, what do we need to be saying to each other to make sure that we're doing ourselves a favor and benefiting from the rebrand that we fought so hard to achieve?
Javier Hasse:It's a complex question. I think, right Like, words might have different meanings depending on the context and who says them. Right, I get that many times. You know, people in America will tell me you can't say marijuana. It's like, why not my word? Right like, yeah, I'm argentinian. Yeah, why there, there's no racial charge in in when I'm saying it. But at the same time, I understand the need for that rebranding right, the the beyond the racial aspect of it.
Javier Hasse:There has been a, you know, a stigma, social stigma associated to the word marijuana. Right, and seen as a drug, the whole gateway drug theory. But I think they're interchangeable in many contexts. I also like weed, I like pot, I like herb. Also, what I'm writing, right, I can't say cannabis a million times in a story. I try to switch it up, but there is I don't think there's a definitive answer. I read an op-ed last year from a Latina writer as well. I'm going to try and remember the media outlet it was published on. But she broke down why marijuana was not a racially charged word and she went through the history and I thought it was very enlightening. Right, it surprised me. I had bought that narrative of the discrimination and the racial charge behind the word and it seems like the actual historical evidence does not support that theory.
AnnaRae Grabstein:What about in Spanish, like when you're writing about marijuana and cannabis? Are there that many words to use? Yes, oh, millions.
Javier Hasse:And it varies from country to country, right, and you know you have different dialects, right? So think of Latin America as the European Union, right, like there's a bunch of countries, but then you know the differences in the language is like US English and British English and South African English, for instance, right, or Australian English. So we'll have different words. Many of them are common, but many of them are not Like. In Mexico they will say mota, but porro is not as common. In Argentina, porro is not as common. In argentina, porro is super common, same as in spain, but in spain they will say porros in plural, um, but, but you know the the, the rebranding of the word marijuana, I think, has been especially, you know, has had a big effect, um, in in our culture, right, we, there was a lot of stigma associated to the word marijuana and the rebranding as cannabis certainly had a very positive effect in the public's perception of what the plant did and was and what it could do in terms of its health benefits.
Javier Hasse:But I think it really varies. You know the way, for instance, I decide which word to use depends a lot on what the content is about, right, and how people are searching for it. You know. You also got to be a little bit strategic there, right, if you're producing content with the intent to educate, you've got to speak to the audience that is looking for it, because otherwise you can produce the best content in the world, but if people don't know about it can find it, it won't have an impact. It's the same as as having a company, right, if, if people you know you can have the best technology in the world in virtuoso, but if people don't know about it, you know you'll be bankrupt in two years, right, and and the it's. It's sometimes that that kind decision. But again, I think it's an ongoing debate. Some people think it's a forbidding word, other people think it's interchangeable and I don't know really what the conclusion or the definitive response could be.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Right, Javier, I want to ask you. You know you started El Planteo to serve Spanish speaking people who are interested in cannabis and mota, but I want to share a little bit with our listeners about what's going on in Latin America in terms of cannabis business opportunities. That tends to be what we talk about here.
Ben Larson:And your co-host. Your co-host wants to know too.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yeah, like we're really interested in what's going on down there. That are real business opportunities, so I'd love to get your take on it.
Javier Hasse:It's very fragmented, right. It's similar to the US in the sense that, you know, like each state in the US has its own regulations and its own set of opportunities. It's very similar in Latin America. The only you know footnote that I would make is we don't have any markets that are as developed as the US markets. If we start at the top, you know Puerto Rico, which is a part of the US, even though it's a little bit more complex in terms of the situation that they have legally, there is a big market there. Right, there's, I think, over $200 million in annual sales, but it's medical only. But they have dispensaries, they have brands. I've seen some products, I think, with virtuoso technology in them, right. So I you know that is a very interesting market. There is, for instance, one company that is selling 50, 60 million dollars in medical cannabis a year. So it's it's not negligible. But then the rest of Latin America is a little bit more more complex, definitely, as I mentioned, fragmented. People were very excited about Mexico. Mexico is not a market that has opened up yet. People expected it to go wreck. It hasn't gone wreck yet.
Javier Hasse:Colombia held a lot of promise, you know, in the first few years following, you know, the legalization and regulation of medical cannabis production in 2017, about, you know, a billion dollars in foreign capital, especially Canadian, but also US and from other places, came in, but the industry didn't develop as fast. Regulations didn't fully accompany the, you know, the investment. So a lot of people invested a lot of money and they then, you know, were left holding a lot of product that they couldn't sell, because they couldn't sell flour domestically in Colombia. They could only make could only make topicals or compound formulations I don't know what you call them and it's like compound pharmacy. Everyone was betting on the export market. The export market wasn't regulated in Colombia, colombia and then, even when it did get regulated, there aren't international regulations and treaties that will allow for a seamless trade of cannabis internationally. Right, you have to go unilaterally, one by one, and the demand isn't there, right? A lot of people now are hoping that Germany will be a big buyer, but if you look at German regulations, you, you know the medical market is pretty much supplied and the adult use market will only allow for local production. So, like a lot of people, you know, I meet a lot of people uh, the a few months ago in argentina, the Inter-American Development Bank hosted this event and they asked me to be there as a mentor for some Argentine projects, and many of them were talking about their plans and building a business to export, and I had to give them this sobering and somewhat downer dose of reality that was like there isn't an export market. Somewhat downer dose of reality. That was like there isn't an export market, right.
Javier Hasse:Uruguay, which was the first country to legalize adult use cannabis, didn't do it at first with a spirit of commercialization or to drive an industry, but rather to just stop people from going to prison for it. So, same thing, the industry didn't develop locally. They bet, you know, as the industry grew, they were betting on exports. Exports were very, very slow. There is a small demand from Switzerland, maybe a small demand from Israel or Australia sometimes, but the market isn't really there, as much you know, and it's very medical there. As much you know it's, and it's very medical, if you look at a country like Argentina, which is probably the highest interest country in terms of the interest that the population has for cannabis and the acceptance you know, cultural acceptance of cannabis. But the market is very medical, right, there is a home growing and nonprofit organizations providing patients but and there are some commercial licenses but no path to selling the product right.
Javier Hasse:So I think the spirit of Latin America in, for the most part, was focused on serving patients right. It was patient advocacy groups who drove legalization forward, so they didn't think of industries to drive profit to make people rich, they just wanted to serve patients as soon as possible. The situation with Colombia was different, but again the promises didn't fully materialize. So the question of where is Latin America really varies from country to country.
Javier Hasse:Chile has a little bit more stringent regulations to access cannabis but at the same time a very big market where people consume a lot of paraphernalia and you know, of course, they love cannabis as well fragmented market, but I think it will be developing in the next few years, especially as governments realize that, beyond serving the patients which was something that they did originally because you know it politically looked good to help a child with epilepsy Now they're also realizing okay, we have tight budgets and if we regulate this we can generate tax income, we can attract foreign investment. Right, and they're slowly getting there. But it's always the same as rescheduling, right. It's a Rachel and Ross at Friends kind of situation. It's like will there or won't they Forever?
Ben Larson:I mean there was a lot of excitement when Mexico started moving towards legalization. Is there an indication of when that might actually come to fruition?
Javier Hasse:political processes is almost a futile exercise. It's good to think about it, it's good to do analysis, but ultimately it's very unpredictable. Things change every day, right, political interest and pressures change every day, and what goes on behind closed doors in terms of negotiations tends to be a lot more complex than we think. Right, like, even when, ideologically, a lawmaker might support legalization, they will want something in exchange. You know, from the person pushing that project forward, right, and you will see that it's like okay, you know, but this law should also include an incentive for the production of Citrix or of coal or this or that, right? So what will happen in Mexico is an unknown. There seems to be a lot of political support and public support for abuse legalization. But you know, if you follow the headlines throughout the last four years or so, there's always been a headline every three months saying Mexico on the brink of legalizing. And they don't.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And you talked about criminalization and how I think you said it was Uruguay that really created regulations that were more about keeping people out of jail than creating an industry.
AnnaRae Grabstein:And in the US we've seen that legalization and policy change has often started in the social justice movements and then as the industry has grown and developed and regulations have unfolded, there's been sometimes like a splitting off of incentives and alignments of that no longer is the social justice movement as aligned with kind of the corporate interests and it comes in and out. There tends to be this sort of roller coaster of sometimes they're aligned and working together and sometimes they're not. And by and large I think there's a general agreement that many of the social equity programs in the US have not been successful or lived up to the hopes and dreams of many of the participants because the industry has been so hard and so tough and capital has been constrained and things like that. I'm curious, since you brought up criminalization in Latin America, if there is a social justice, social equity type parallel that's happening as part of the conversation and how you see that potentially being a part of the forward progress or not.
Javier Hasse:It's interesting, right? I think there's a tension. Let's start with the US. Right, I think there's a tension with the American ethos of a free enterprise, of the land, of opportunity and financial development and the real promise of legalization. Right, the legalization movements, you know, always wanted, you know, people to get out of jail and stop going to prison, for it people to be able to access medicine. It was never part of premise to make people, you know, rich, right, and now you do hear a lot of people saying, you know, it was never part of premise to make people rich. And now you do hear a lot of people saying it's not fair, the rules don't allow us to make enough money. But that was never a promise. Like the reality behind the push for legalization was to drive social justice.
Javier Hasse:It is true that social equity programs in the US have failed in many cases in the sense that they haven't provided enough opportunities, financial opportunities for those most affected by the war on drugs. But we've seen expungement, we've seen people get out of prison, which is something that hasn't really happened massively in Latin America, right, people are still in prison, people are still going to prison, even in Uruguay, you know where they have an adult use program. Last year a lot of growers went to prison because they were, you know, same thing. They had this issue where they were running clubs and clubs have a limited number of members, so they weren't making enough money, but they were growing more weed than they could dispense. So then they were turning, without weed, to the illicit market and the government did an investigation and they all ended up in prison. Right, what they were doing was outside the regulations that they themselves had asked for. They had asked the government to give them a clear set of rules of how they could do business in the cannabis space.
Javier Hasse:We could debate forever. I think that should be fine. It shouldn't be something that lands you in prison, right. But there's always this tension, right, where economic opportunities need to coexist with the movement that pushes social justice and patient access. Right. To me, that is the priority right. Making money off weed is totally secondary in that sense.
Javier Hasse:But I don't think we have such a strong social equity movement in Latin America like we've seen in the US have such a strong social equity movement in Latin America like we've seen in the US. Also because the consequences of the war on drugs were different, even though they emanated from the US and they had a huge impact on Latin America. The situation is different. So there is, to a certain level, inclusion, for instance, from indigenous peoples and in the industry, but but they don't get the resources right. There aren't social equity programs to support the massive investment that is required to participate in the cannabis industry. I don't know. It's like all the questions you asked me, it's like I feel like I'm just going in circles. It's like I don't have a definitive answer right, like all these processes are so complex and there's so many different interests, uh, at play that there's never a straightforward answer to whether you know things are working, things are progressing, something will happen. What's the right word?
AnnaRae Grabstein:Many things can be true at the same time.
Ben Larson:Yeah, exactly, it's almost reassuring to me as a business owner in the US because I have a lot of FOMO when I start thinking about other markets and my lack of attention on them other markets and my lack of attention on them. And so if I can just put LATAM back in a box for a little bit and continue to focus my efforts on the unpredictable and politicized and tough to make money market of the US, then happy to absorb that there's still a lot of work to be done, right.
Javier Hasse:There's an expression in Argentina that goes el que mucho abarca, poco aprieta, which loosely translates to this is not a hug, right. So in order to get a grip on the US market, you got to be focused right. You got to be able to grip right. If you're trying to grab a lot, then you won't get a grip on anything. If you're trying to grab a lot, then you won't get a grip on anything. I think it's gradual At the same time as we were discussing earlier, the technology that Vertosa has has that advantage of being able to move across borders much more easily than product containing flour or extracts or whatever product containing flour or extracts or whatever.
Ben Larson:So yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, so jumping to US, let's talk about your work in Benzinga. You've got all these hats. You know, and a lot of people know of Benzinga as a media outlet, but it's also an events company. I'd love to hear a little bit about what you guys all have in store for us in Chicago with the upcoming event. And yeah, what's the plan? What are we all doing in a month or so?
Javier Hasse:So, as you mentioned, benzinga is a media company based out of Detroit, representing the 313. Big fan of Detroit, my favorite American city, I'm going to say. But, as you mentioned, we also do events. We do, you know, technology, products and, and you know, I think, our, you know, beyond the fact that Benzinga Cannabis, or Cannabis Vertical, is the most red cannabis news source in the world, you know, and gets distributed through MSM, bloomberg, robinhood, fidelity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Javier Hasse:I think, like you know, a large part of our success stemmed from our events. Right, we've done more, more than 20 conferences now in the cannabis space focused on business and finance and investing and marketing. But I think that at the core of these events is the networking aspect. Right, right, people come for the speakers but stay for the connections. Right, and, and I've seen that like increasingly right, we, we can announce the, the, the best keynote speaker in the world, and people will buy tickets for that. But then they will return, even if that keynote speaker is not there anymore, because they they find that it's a curated environment where they can connect with like-minded people, where they can connect with other businesses in the space, where they find investors.
Javier Hasse:We usually have between 200 and 600 active investors at our conferences. So people you know raise money. We've gotten calls, you know, from large MSOs saying, hey, we closed a $2.5 billion deal at your conference because we just met this other company. Wow, a friend of mine will text me on WhatsApp the day after the conference or a week after saying, hey, I just raised $10 million. I met this guy while at the cocktail hour or the after party or during the networking session session. Right, so it is a an interesting mix of education, uh, general debate and networking that I think takes place there.
Ben Larson:It is tough to you know, in in the world of like, where mj biz was kind of the the lighthouse event for everyone. It was tough to like kind of launch a new conference series and really differentiate. And you know, anna Ray and I were both at Benzing in Miami and we're just kind of thrilled with like the, the quality of of of the speakers and the attendees and, to your point, just the the networking was was insane and yeah, and do you think that was the investor network that drew that curation together? Because I don't feel like it's like it's not like you're applying to go, so like it's not heavily guarded from a curation standpoint but it does seem to attract a lot of like the influential people at these different companies things.
Javier Hasse:Right. It's you know, hats off to mjbiz for everything they've built. I think it's it's a fantastic event. It's the type of event that you saw in around the world. Right, if you go to spain, you got spannabis. If you go to argentina, you got the expo cannabis. You got the expo cannabis in uruguay and chile, like every country, has their major b2c kind of event right, where you got a huge expo hall and you get a lot of people in the business and then just people who are curious about the business or the industry or the plan or just want to go see Paranalia or meet one of the people who will be showing up there.
Javier Hasse:I think the you know, the Benzinga Valley prop, I think was kind of a self-fulfilled prophecy. Right, the fact that we chose to curate our content and our agenda and the topics that are discussed in the panels in a certain way automatically created the kind of audience that was attending. Right, if you look at the agenda, it's the kind of topic that makes you think, oh, I got to wear a suit and tie for this. Right, it's a lot of investing and finance and policy and ways to market your product. So I think the topics built the audience, and then the audience kind of dictated the direction of the evolution of the topics that we're touching on.
AnnaRae Grabstein:The event's a great size. That's the other thing for me. A lot of my business is built on on building trusting relationships with people that then are like, oh okay, you're smart, you could help us come solve this problem. And um, it's harder to do when you're at a place like MJ biz that just has so many people and uh, and you can. You can know, in the corner of large events you end up making those connections. That happens. But but Benzinga is just a more manageable size where you can make the rounds, have the important conversations and yeah, I have been there both as an operator and representing investors and I've met people, you know, from both perspectives that have helped move things forward for me. So I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be fun. I love Chicago, thank you.
Ben Larson:The big difference is that at MJBiz a lot of stuff happens outside the conference.
AnnaRae Grabstein:That's true.
Ben Larson:And then what I remember from Benzinga is like everything's happening inside the conference. That's true. And then what I remember from benzinga is like everything's happening inside the conference, like everyone's going it's at the hotel lobby.
Javier Hasse:Well, it's, it's a. It's a crowd like 2,000, 2,500 people. You can fit in the hotel lobby right at a. At an event that has 30,000 people, it's hard to nail people down right and and find them, um. But you know, the other thing that that I would say is you know, I think part of the success of Benzinga conferences came from the development of personal relationships. Right, all these CEOs and investors were people that we had interviewed, that that, that they knew our work. So when we reached out, they were willing to show up to speak. Right, and that then attracted many other attendees, right. But I think it's also part of why, then, the relationship-making component is such a big part of the Banzang events. Right, because people are there because of relationships. Because people are there because of relationships, then relationships take the center stage as the event takes place, right, vegas is a fun week, though.
Ben Larson:Does the journalist in you like to try to predict what the major topics of conversation are going to be like in the audience? Because I came away from, you know, and this somewhat resonates with the, the content that's on stage, but it's it's a little different. Like coming away, I'm like, oh wow, like beverage was holding about 50 of the, the oxygen in the room. You know, there there was definitely a lot of conversations about, like, what's happening in in europe, um, what maybe has changed in the last six months? What do you think? Like the, the, the meaty conversations are going to be circling around around the conference in October.
Javier Hasse:Well, definitely we're scheduling in the election. I think that is like the main topic. Um, no, then then Ohio is is pretty hot, is, is, is, is what I'm seeing a lot. Um, like you know, the challenges of raising capital are always at the center of a conversation, and then the one that is really. You know, the two newer conversations, of course because we're scheduling and the election, you know are new, but they're policy right, and they're reforms. So it's an old topic with a new name.
Javier Hasse:But the rise of the beverage conversation and the hemp-derived cannabinoids and the intoxicating, if you will, side of hemp-derived cannabinoids are two topics that are really taking the center stage in the conversations. I think beverages are just becoming a huge topic, a little bit on the back of the proliferation of hemp-derived cannabinoids, just because suddenly they're available at every other gas station and bodega, but also because there's such an ease and convenience in consumption, right, but also because there is such an ease and convenience in consumption, right, you know it's, um, at least I feel it's the next step for for normalization and mainstreaming of cannabis right as a uh, not so much as a medical substance, even though as well, but also as a recreational uh substance. Yeah, because that is what we're used to Right when, um, recreational, uh, substance, yeah, because that is what we're used to right when, um, when I first tried and like this is not a specific shout out, but like just my experience when I first tried the osaka wine I think it was 2017 I was in vegas and someone came out with a case of that and they were like hey, you got to try this, you're argentine, you, you know wine, you gotta try this. It's not true. I was like, oh my god, this, this is insane because you know when, when you get together with friends and family or whatever, there's a very clear tradition and previous position in people to share a drink.
Javier Hasse:You want to toast, you want to have something that's familiar, and cannabis beverages are very much fitting that kind of tradition and situation generally, socially Also, smoking is not as friendly to people around you and suddenly you know you have a nice beverage and you know it's familiar. You know you have a nice beverage and you know it's familiar. It breaks that stigma. And, of course, all the general discourse of the beverage space in cannabis revolves a lot around like hey, there's no hangover, which, honestly, as you age, you realize it is a real concern.
Ben Larson:Yeah, yeah, shout out to Cynthia and Tracy I still have like some of the old bottles. It's so beautiful. I just, I just love, love the brand just too early. You know, the regulated california market was so tough.
Javier Hasse:Um, there wasn't enough room for for like kind of nuanced products at the time yeah, oh yeah, but but then there's a lot of them that have like massive success. Of course, like can always comes to mind, but like you know again. The same thing is with the advent of hard seltzers. Suddenly everyone was looking for some kind of seltzer. Yeah, Because they taste good, they're easy to drink and, honestly, if you ask me if I would choose one with vodka or one with THC, probably I would go with the THC one.
Ben Larson:Yeah, we love hearing that.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, so since you are someone that really is up on the news, it seems like we should touch on a few things that have come up in this last week. Something that was pretty disappointing to some to hear was the announcement about the rescheduling here Like the retail investors, so pushing the rescheduling conversation to after the election. What do we think here, everyone? How predictable was this? It's pretty predictable, right, I was gonna ask you that.
Javier Hasse:I know actually it's disappointing. Is it surprising?
AnnaRae Grabstein:I would not say it's surprising. We've we've talked about chevron on this podcast. My business partner actually came on and talked to us about um, about chevron, and I think that the fact that the agencies want to cover their ass means that this is the type of work that's going to be undertaken in order for policy change to come from an agency. They want to really dot all their I's and cross all their T's and investigate all of both the comments, the complaints and the scientific um support for, for rescheduling, but I think the downside to that, though, is that, like depending on who wins the next presidential election, it could actually change the whole trajectory of the priority of this work but what's what's surprising about it is just how people are reacting.
Ben Larson:From like the the promise of a potential rescheduling, people are buying stock of of publicly traded companies, which. What really is the the positive impact besides? Maybe more capital coming into the space, but is that really going to impact the trajectory of an MSL right now?
Javier Hasse:Probably there's a debate, right? Like some MSOs will tell you federal legalization or rescheduling is not the best scenario for them. Most of them will tell you the opposite, of course. But the nature of the stock market isn't, to a certain extent, also speculative, right? So, of course, when you get good news here, you're going to try and buy as fast as possible, and you get get bad news, anticipating that the market will move. That way it's. It's again a self-fulfilled prophecy in many cases, right? Uh, it's not like valuations are, you know? Like the change in valuation does not reflect the change in fundamentals and how the companies are doing, right?
AnnaRae Grabstein:well, just looking at our industry's main etf, msos and and its stock performance, I mean it.
Ben Larson:It dropped over 10, maybe like 15, on this announcement two days ago but it's not like rescheduling is done, it's just it's delayed, like all political processes are these days, and so it's not a surprise and there was no promise.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Anyway, yeah it's. It makes no sense like like the way these doctors, people will hate on me for saying this, but I'm going to say it.
Javier Hasse:We've got to be mindful of the timing of every political process, right? We think cannabis regulation and reform isn't moving as fast as we'd like to, and that is fair to say. I would like to see it done tomorrow, especially in the US, where there's not even medical legalization or people are dying because they can't access cannabis. But in reality it's a movement that is progressing faster than any other movement in the world. In the last five years, what 70 countries moved to regulate cannabis in some way, shape or form? How many US states regulated cannabis, even for adult use? You know, five years ago you wouldn't find a dispensary in most states, right? So the process is complex.
Javier Hasse:I understand the DEA's reluctance to going like, oh yeah, let's change our position overnight. It also doesn't look great because it's kind of a signal saying like, hey, we haven't really been reviewing the actual scientific evidence. But now that everyone is putting pressure on us, actually, you know the scientific evidence backs this and there is a lot of scientific evidence to legalize cannabis. I am very much pro-legalization, but I do understand that there are also other factors to look at and you know there are risks, there are implicit risks. If you ask me, rescheduling is a no-brainer.
Javier Hasse:It's not legalization right? It's not even decriminalization, it's just saying, at this point in time, the potential for abuse of cannabis has been largely studied and it is not comparable to what is in Schedule 1. It is not heroin and it does have some accepted medical benefits. It is no longer. In total, the FDA has approved a cannabis-based medication for certain forms of epilepsy. So aren't we in agreement? Agreement that a substance has undergone three-faced, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials and it has proven to be safe and effective? Isn't that like an acceptable medical use? But I understand the need for this process to be gradual and I understand why the DEA, which is also politically driven, might want to wait till after the election, because the decision they make might be seen as right or wrong depending on who wins the election.
Javier Hasse:No one wants to lose their job over this and I urge them to take action.
Ben Larson:But it's complex, well so okay. So that's a topic that's kind of front and center for everyone, been top of mind for the entire year. You know you have a strong pulse on on everything like what's a story or narrative that you don't think is getting enough attention or enough play right now, like what do you, like what should be people be paying attention to, as far as what really affects, kind of the underpinnings of business right now?
Javier Hasse:That's a great question. I don't know what could drive business right now. I think you know most of it relates to adoption. When we saw the estimates for legal markets whether it was Canada or a certain US state or whatever for years we assumed adoption and the conversion from the illicit market to the legal market would be pretty instantaneous. And that was not the case, of course. Pretty instantaneous and and that was not the case, of course. But you know, all these stories that we're, that we're talking about, clearly will define how business will be made and and how businesses will succeed in coming years, whether it's for scheduling, uh, the any, any of the safe banking, more hope, all these different uh projects being discussed in Congress.
Javier Hasse:But ultimately and this is kind of against much of the work that I do in a sense is I think the priority should be patients. If people are getting rich or not with cannabis, it's not a personal priority of mine. I would love to see people thrive in the cannabis space. I think we deserve it.
Javier Hasse:Many of us have been chastised and prosecuted for cannabis use for many years, for cannabis advocacy for many years. But it's not my number one priority, uh, until we don't have a federal medical cannabis law in america. I really don't care. If people are making that much money, right. Why aren't we united behind the number one thing that that should matter here is like people not suffering because they can't access cannabis. Why are we not rallying behind the cause of of letting people out of prison for nonviolent cannabis offenses? People are spending 40 years in prison. Once we've solved this, then we can discuss business. On the other hand, it is the business aspect of it that drives political change in America, especially because, as we all know, money talks and if there is a great way to sway political opinion, is showing them the money, even more so than the heartfelt story about a patient suffering from MS and suddenly seeing their seizures reduced by 95% of the time.
Ben Larson:Yeah, you just pulled together so many conversations that I've been having and we have infighting happening at many different levels right now and a lot of us talk the talk of being about the patients, creating access to the plant and getting people out of prison. But the actions people are taking and it's happening in the hemp versus cannabis conversation and it's happening just in the cannabis world in California an article today where the retailers are are lobbying to prevent the farmer's market kind of model from happening and allowing farmers to sell directly to patients and it's I'm like this is absurd, like have we become so myopic in in our, in our revenue generation that we are willing to put barriers in between the plant and the patient?
Javier Hasse:Exactly, and that is why I commend Argentina, for instance, for how they regulated cannabis, because the first thing they did when they came out with regulations was regulate home growing and a patient registry and a caregiver model. It wasn't driven by profit, it wasn't thought out to create millionaires. It was thought out first and foremost to deliver medicine to patients as soon as possible. That meant within three months you could have your first legal harvest at home without fear of going to prison for growing that cannabis that you needed so desperately. Then they came out with regulations for the industry, for hemp, for commercial licenses. They will at some point regulate how that will be sold for commercial gain, but for now it is a patient-driven market and I love that.
Javier Hasse:And of course, people will complain that they aren't generating enough financial opportunities. But we prioritized what was urgent and what was behind the discourse that drove legalization in most of these places. That was, people shouldn't be in prison, people shouldn't be suffering, they should be able to access their medicine. Okay, perfect, here's we delivered on that, on that demand. Now you have access. Okay, what comes next? Let's develop an industry Lovely. Let's make money. We all love money, you know. But it's the next step, right, you know, america kind of went the other way around. Let's first make money and then figure out how to best serve the patient.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Great, great points and really really interesting debate about the way that capitalism and greed kind of both supports and gets in the way of patient access and social justice. So thank you for bringing.
Javier Hasse:And I will say sorry. One last thing, because, on the other hand, like, for instance, stock, I said earlier you know, to a certain extent, investing in the stock market, in the capital markets, is speculative, but at the same time, I'm a firm believer that investing in cannabis companies and biotech companies working with cannabinoids is investing in the future of medicine that can change the world. Right? So if you're going to put your money to work, at least support something good. You can choose easily to invest your money in coal and oil drilling and see predictable dividends and nice returns and whatever. But if you you know people who invested early in GW pharmaceuticals, you know you ultimately were retail investors who ended up supporting the development of the first FDA and EU approved cannabis-based medication, right? So I think there's something to be said about that side as well. Right, those risking capital.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Well, we're at the end of our hour and so this is our time, when we turn the mic actually back over to you, javier, for your last call to make your lasting impression on our audience, your call to action, whatever you like. So the mic is yours. What is your last call?
Javier Hasse:I'm going to repeat support patient access, advocate for medical cannabis. Talk to your policymakers, local politicians, ask them to support legalization. Remember that people are still in prison for these plans and that there's still opportunities and ways to do well by doing good, and this is an industry that, at the same time, allows us to do well by doing good. We're getting together to discuss how to do well by doing good, how to drive this movement forward, how to drive legalization. I've been seeing a Cannabis Capital Conference October 8th and 9th in Chicago bccannabiscom. For more info, If you speak Spanish, check out elplanteocom and if not, benzingacom, slash cannabis, it's we got all the news Amazing.
Ben Larson:I love all that. Thank you, Javier, Really. Again appreciate you taking the time to be with us. How best for people to follow you personally.
Javier Hasse:It's down there, Javier Casas. If you're interested, reach out. Happy to help. However, I can Ultimately thank you for having me. I don't know I got very talkative today.
Ben Larson:It's great. That's why we had you on, but, yeah, looking forward to seeing you in Chicago, a little bit over a month away.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Yes, yes, I'm in person. High five On the way.
Ben Larson:All right, anna Rae, another one in the bag. It's so cool to like be able to interview someone that has been so present, I guess, and just like building out our visibility in the cannabis world. You know I can't tell you how many articles I read of Javier's. I have the how to Start a Cannabis Business book on my bookshelf behind me. Got a little bit of a shout out in it. That was nice. Anyways, excited, excited to see everyone at Benzinga in Chicago in a little over a month. It seems like the conference has really become a mainstay in the in the business world.
AnnaRae Grabstein:Absolutely, absolutely. Well, let's read it out and we'll see everybody there.
Ben Larson:Yeah, we will see you all there and thank you for coming and seeing us here. Uh, thank you, Thank you. Thank you for continuing to share, like and subscribe the guests we have lined up all the way through October. At this point, I'm going to continue to give you the perspective of what's happening in Canada's world from different states, different corners of the industry. I'm really excited to dive into all that. Thank you to our teams at Wolfmeyer and Virtosa. Without you guys, we couldn't be doing this. So thank you for keeping our mics and lights on week after week after week. And remember, folks stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high Until next time. That's the show, okay, you.
