7 - Fawning Part 2 ~ The Fallout | The Sleepy Sisters Podcast

Do you feel worried or upset when you have a difference of opinion about just about anything with someone you care about? This episode is for you. 

Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
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Transcript

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Okay. Hello, I for the sleepy sisters. I'm Elizabeth bring Sarah Durham. And we're tired, y'all. This weather is not making any easier. Now, I don't know. Yeah. If you're listening to this in winter months. Maybe you're feeling cold where you live, but it is frigid. I also think I say that in summer, too. When it's hot. I'm like, yeah, it doesn't matter. It has just been an optimal temperature for me not to comment. Not to be sleeping. Oh, my gosh, we're living in the wrong part of the world. That's the problem. We wouldn't be so sleepy if we just lived somewhere where there was optimal temperature at all times. Yeah, we're that is? God. I know. I don't even think that exists anywhere at this point. Okay, so we're gonna talk about fawning again, we're going to we're going to talk about fawning, and kind of explore it beyond in our last exploration about it, it was a lot around the holidays and end of year kind of expectations. And one thing so and I kept thinking about this after so one thing I wanted to say is that fawning is, I believe, a blended state in the nervous system, which we mentioned last time, but I think I said it like it was only one version of a blended state. And I'd like to rephrase that. And say that, what we know is that in order to connect socially with other people, we use our like social connection state in our nervous system, which, like, in polyvagal theory would be ventral vagal. And so we know that state in the nervous system is involved with fawning. But I, I think I said last time that it was a mix between that and freeze. And I think that is one presentation of it. But the more I started thinking about it, I was like, you know, I think I could see a case for a blended state, excuse me have that social connection network and a fight response. And in fact, I think for me, that might be more of what comes up when I'm in that state of fawning and that it's almost like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get out of this. But I'm just gonna, like, keep talking until I can safely back away it's like, and I do think sometimes, I noticed like activation in me. Like, my heart rate will go up and my voice will start to shake a little bit. And I don't feel very Freezy I feel more like I'm having a little bit of like a fight response. And I'm trying to engage socially. And I'm kind of trying to Swart that feeling of like, Oh, I really want to tell this person what for I really want to correct them or I really want to clarify something they're saying and it can feel like I'm actually thwarting a fight response, not like I'm battling. Oh, I'm Freezy. And I'm kind of dissociating and I'm just talking. And people feel like I'm engaging but I'm really kind of disengaged in this conversation. I think sometimes I'm like, overly engaged. And I'm trying to like people please at the same time, and it can feel more like this blue kind of fight and social engagement. So that makes sense. I can totally picture this scenario. I can just picture you right now in the state you know, it's like you know what I look like when the sun exactly what you look like it's like you were making plans about something and you're you are doing that face and doing like well I mean, just think that you know, and then you know you'll see if we could do whatever you want but then you're not really there anymore. And I can I know the look on your face and you're kind of being appeasing but you're not really it's one of my I would say probably I'm most uncomfortable around you when you're like this because I don't really know what the truth is. About Yeah, and you can like tell I don't either true. Or maybe I mean I do sometimes I think I do know, and I'm having like an internal battle around am I allowed and I had these or how flexible you We're failing because, yeah, sometimes I think it's hard because you've done so much work to where we both have an initial what we want, yes or no. And sometimes it gets confusing about, I need to sort this out. And I don't know if this is me being inflexible right now, or if this is a legitimate other option, and I just need my system to kind of, so this talking has happening with you, while you're kind of sorting that out. So you weren't technically there. But you don't want to totally retreat. I mean, I'm putting this on here. But this is kind of what I see. And can can relate to. And you want to keep that connection going? And I don't know if it's because you feel like if you don't keep the connection going, like you're not allowed to do that, to sort of Yeah, I mean, I think that is exactly, I mean, that's my trauma, right? Like, if you think back, you know, to me as a small child, trying to make sure that mom is okay, trying to make sure that she's like that she's connected to me that she's in the room that she's with me when she's going through a hard thing, and is not totally in the room, and understandably so now as an adult. And at the same time, my little nervous system is figuring out, you know, oh, okay, in order to keep the connection and keep you here, there are certain patterns of familiarity that need to be like at play. And, and I think I just learned at a really young age, to be studying very closely the nervous system and the expressions of the other person, I mean, gauging with and for that, to then dictate what comes out of my mouth or what my thoughts or opinions are. And so when we add a baseline talk about like setting boundaries, which is essentially a big part of what this is, like, can I like something different than you want something different from you and the connection to you stay intact? So do you think that you're doing this in real time? So you are talking, and you are putting things out there? I mean, imagine you as when you're younger. And as the words are coming out of your mouth, you are watching micro expressions, and you are pivoting and moving and kind of like a video game. might try to match how you're being received. Yes. Oh, crap. That sounds exhausting. Oh, that is the form of fawning for me. And, yes, this is why I'm so freakin tired. You know that, like, it takes so much work because I'm trying to appease the other people involved. While at the same time I'm having this internal, you know, battle with like, maybe a fight response, maybe I don't want to appease this person, maybe I'm mad, maybe I'm feeling put upon, there's all kinds of things I could be feeling. And I'm, I'm kind of, I'm directing that fight response energy toward myself. And I'm using it in order to keep any of that stuff from coming out of my mouth. And using it from you know, in that little girl mind from damaging the connection. And the thing is, like, there is some of that. I mean, I studied communications in college, right? And like, a lot of people did that. In order to get through college. I did it because I actually really love communications. And I love studying people and why people do and say the things they do. And I think this part of me was like, Okay, here's how to perform, you know, connection, here's how to perform that like we're a Okay, and so I can sense when someone's not okay, I will initially take it personally like oh, I've done something I've said something it's possible maybe I should put it out there and check and make sure it's not my fault that they have this certain, you know, look or aspect and and then if there is any space there for like, what do you think what do you want? It either comes out in like, what I will call over energized responses. Or it comes out in this like very, like you're saying this very like kind of constipated response of like, Oh, I think I have some thoughts and feelings but I'm not sure if it's okay for me to just like, say what I mean and mean what I say so I do this weird dance that like if you know me, well. You do know what I look like when I'm doing this and It's exhausting. It makes me want to avoid decisions even though I consider myself a really decisive person. This makes perfect sense when I think about our, our dynamic, because not necessarily I think that we've grown in this area, but I'm thinking about, like, all the years prior, and why it frustrates me because my effect is, you know, complicated, right? Like my of the looks on my face and you trying to read and me being an important person too. And let's just say your face looks uninterested, frustrated, over it. A lot of like, your default just kind of looks over it. It does. I'm the Ben Affleck of our family. Like, it's a really, it definitely affects my day. Like, when I think about, and I have, yeah, but when I think about that, it makes sense why? I don't know, I will take the time to make a decision. Like, I don't know, I can't think about this right now. I gotta like, whatever, and why you would always try to rush. And then you would throw like 100 options at me, which would flood me even more. And I'll get first of all, I just need a minute. I can't make this decision right now. And you just be like, Well, okay, we could do this, we could do that. We're gonna do that. And like thinking like that, that was control in a way that was like, it wasn't really about controlling me it was more about like, controlling, like, your safety. And that like, Okay, I need you to make a decision. So I can match that. And you're pissing me off because you're like, not able, because I was more able to say no. Well, that and because you're requiring me to sit in the mystery. Yeah. And you're or you're requiring me to slow down and my nervous system doesn't like slowing down. Not No, but not right now. Like, I can't make the decision right. Now I'm going to go into my case where I'm gonna go, and not actually asking for any more options, like I just would be at like, decision overload or whatever it was I just who even knows with me, right? But then I also had the face. And yeah, I could see how that could be really uncomfortable for you. I mean, I will say that, like, as we're talking about this, I'm having this thought and I just feel like a lot of my, my like, activation, I often feel, let me I feel like one of the hardest things for me to hear from another person is, I can't really talk about this right now. I can't decide about this right now. And it is getting easier for me to hear that. And it's getting easier for me to be able to say that for myself. Because it is true, a lot of the time that like I can't make a decision right now. And my nervous system is so revved up that it is like just rip the band aid off and do it already. And learning to like, not interpret that as a disconnection from the relationship. That's been a part of my own internal work is like not taking that personally, and celebrating it and other people, which I feel like I've been able to do pretty consistently with my clients. And so it's almost like it's given me good practice that, like the stakes aren't as high. And in my relationships, like Cory will say that a lot. Like I'm at my limit. I don't think I can discuss this anymore, or I don't think I don't think I can decide that right now. And I find that when I say that when I have that limit, I it comes out activated. It doesn't come out, like centered and like, Hey, I'm noticing a limit that I'm having right now. And I need to come back to this later, it comes out like I can't do this right now. I've had enough I reached my limit it like comes out activated, which then sometimes creates conflict. But it's like, at least creates conflict internally. Because then I'll feel like oh great. Now I've just like lit up an argument. And that fawning peace you know that wanting things to be right in Okay, at all times. Starts to like that little gremlin starts to be like, oh forceful. When I think about if my God, if you're, what you're asking for or decision needs to be made around an event or something. And there's more than one person tied to it. Like, let's say you want to do like a sister's weekend or whatever. And so like Cory is tied into it. Me that guy, you know, and so it's like a death of me. I mean, I can imagine. Like I not only it's like I'm asking you for a thing for For myself, that is pure delight, it's not a necessity, it's not tied to work. It's the opposite. I'm gonna like take up space in a in, in getting into like something that's really just to make me happy, which oh my gosh, that's a thing. And then you have to coordinate that with Corey. And then you're asking, Can we do this and I would imagine, like, when you come to visit, like all of the things with your kids and all of that, and I know because I, I feel something similar. But we're talking about you, and I'm thinking about how big of a deal this is for you. And just that I'm just picturing like, just this, like, you know, spiderweb of just, I mean, these these few times that we've gotten all five of the siblings together with dad, and like all of our kids. So we've done that. I don't even know maybe three times in the last handful of years. One of them was in November for your birthday. There. You're right, like I'm having like tingly feelings in my body right now, like getting the chills, because it's so satisfying. To get to the point where it's like, oh, my gosh, it's gonna work for everyone. And they're all excited. And it feels so good. And that leading up to it. Yeah, if there's any resistance from anyone, it can really I can be in a very, like vulnerable place around. Okay, it's gonna be okay. Don't take it personally, people are allowed to have conflicts, they're allowed to not want conflicts with their schedules, they're allowed to, like not want to do the thing. And, and wanting to, like, meet the needs of every single individual who might be involved, during all that negotiating easier this last time, because I know, then you come into that space. And I know, part of you feels responsible for the vibe in the room, and that everyone is, you know, whatever. But did it make it easier that the main focus was my birthday? And not just all of us together? Or did that make it more complicated, or just the same? I'm just curious, I think that made it more laborious, because then I was like, oh, and I want to make it special birthday. So it just added an extra layer of like actual labor to the whole thing. Whereas when we went to New Mexico together, it felt a little easier to divide and conquer, though we did do some of that divide and conquer for this in terms of meal planning and stuff. But yeah, I mean, I just think about like, the intricacies of how this shows up for me, and that, because this happens to me relationally with people, I think I have spent, you know, most of my life not really knowing moment to moment, what I feel like doing or don't feel like doing. And that like that is kind of the crux of the fawning for me is that I'm just I'm not going with the flow. So let's not confuse things like that, it doesn't look like going with the flow. If you know me, you're like, This is not a person who goes with the flow. It's a person who manages to go with the flow, or like forces themselves to go with the flow. And sometimes there's a little fallout from that. And the fallout is usually internal for me at a minimum, where I will feel totally wiped out or just like really frustrated. And I will feel like there is a relational rift between me and someone because of how much work I've had to do to thwart my internal responses to you know, protecting me and to choosing me and what I want. And this is a really difficult dynamic for me. And there's this example that just happened. I guess we're just going to make this about me, but I want to hear what what pieces this brings up for you. But not yet. There's this so, um, so I have this is like a real life example. It's happening right now I've decided to get a tattoo. And I'm excited about it. I'm nervous. But I'm excited about it. And Cory is not that into it. He's not like opposed to it. He's just like, mad or whatever. Right? And so you can imagine how that feels to me because when I was younger, and Sara and I would go with our moms like Walmart or Target, I would like hold up a shirt and be like, for her and be like, what about this one? And she'd be like, Oh, it's cute. And it was like if it wasn't like that is the cutest thing ever. I felt like rejected like she had someone buy something that you have suggested. It's like the heavens have opened up and you're like, Yes, I'm saying I'd say you love it. Yes you do. And So I have a really hard time when people have a difference of opinion. And I think I've just only recently realized that that's a boundary thing. And that there's this challenge for my nervous system of, oh, no, that's dangerous. If you have a difference of opinion, then maybe the relationship and the connection is at risk. And so it can be over like really silly things. Like, you know, do you like this? Do you like this thing I made that you're eating right now or whatever. Or it can be like, I'm about to put this permanent art on my body. And you know, I want him to be like, you and Becca have been, which is like, this is so fun. It's so exciting. Oh, that looks so cool with like, my little inspiration pictures. And like, y'all are doing the thing, because you know, that you need to do that thing for me. Like, this is so great. And I actually am like, I need that so much that I don't care. Even though I think I do believe it's genuine. I'm choosing to believe. And so anyway, then, on the flip side of this, there was this thing that Corey wanted to buy that cost a lot of money, and in my mind is frivolous, and maybe borderline absurd, but like, bring Him joy. And it's just like a game thing. It's like, anyway. But it was a lot of money and as is a tattoo and so he mentioned it to me, it's something that his brother has. So when we were there, over the holidays, he like got really excited about it. And I was just like, this is okay. And he mentioned it, he didn't really ask like, Hey, can we get this? We go back and forth around spending and how we kind of talked about spending. But I was kind of like, gosh, that's a lot of money. I don't know. And I felt kind of hesitant about it. Anyway, he ordered it. And then he's like, Oh, it's arriving, right? And I'm like you got you ordered it. And okay, so then he arrives. And over the course of a couple of days, it just arrived on Friday. So it's like super fresh. So over the course of a couple days before it arrived or whatever. I also on Thursday had my console for my tattoo. And we had this interaction where like, these two things are kind of happening at the same time. And I'm just noticing how different his whole process is around doing a thing that I'm like, not that approving of I wasn't disapproving. I just was kind of like, willing to do a lot of money. So maybe I was a little disapproving. And how physically uncomfortable I am with him not being able to like, give me a full bodied affirmed like, This is so great. You're tattooing your arm. And I felt a little locked up. And we were like in the kitchen and he could tell and he was like, Are you mad at me? And I was just sitting there kind of reeling like what is happening? What's happening in my body? What am I feeling? And I got a little emotional because I was just like, this is on me. This is my work. This is my stuff. I need to be okay with you not being fully on board with me doing this thing. And that not stealing some of my joy from doing it. Yeah. And I need to be okay with doing it anyway, and and not feeling torn about it. Because that's what it did. It initially made me feel even more unsure. Like maybe I shouldn't do this. Yeah, I know this feeling well. And that is not what he was saying. He wasn't saying I don't think you should do this. He's just saying tattoos aren't for me. The same thing I'm feeling about this game thing, which so it because they're happening at the same time, I'm like, so envious, that he can just like do this thing and not worry about the connection between the two of us if he does this thing that I met about, right? It's not even like there's real conflict. And I'm like, No, this is not okay. I do not want this in the house. Yeah, right. Like that's different. That's not what I'm talking about. It's like this is so nuanced. And it's like there's not conflict here. But my system is reading it like it's conflict and dangerous. How dare you be so nonchalant about your purchase and be all experiencing joy? And like, why can't I have that you know, and just that that like feeling? I mean, I went to bed on Friday feeling like a little sad. And a little like, reconnected to me like sad maybe in a good way just like oh, wow, okay, this is totally about me. And I do I want to talk to do I like the idea I have for like kind of trying to reconnect myself to what I was already deciding And feeling like, I'm doing this thing for me because I like it. It has nothing to do with my relationship to anyone else. And gosh, I really wish that were easier for me to do that I feel exactly the same way and so much so that I very rarely will ask somebody, what their opinion is about something like that, because of those boundaries, or my emotions, I know how sensitive I am. And if I even on microexpression, if it's something where I'm like, I really want this and I can't make room for someone not being just over the moon for me or whatever. I will just keep it to myself. And it's unfortunate because like it, you know, it kind of takes away from like your experience when you can't like, share with other people like something fun or exciting or whatever. I can't remember I don't have an example of the last time I did this. I do know Joshua is very much the same way. And I will watch him like I'm watching an animal at the zoo experience some of these things like when the way that he cuz he's built different, like different he's got he doesn't worry as much he doesn't have is he bought if you want something for himself, like, you know, kill, he'll do it. And I watched like that him in that sometimes where I'm just like, like watching an animal at the zoo or in the wild, like what is happening over there. Like, you're totally like, into whatever it is you're doing. We're in areas where I struggle, you know, so did you ate, were you able to go back and connect and be like, Yeah, I do want that tattoo, or did you decide? No, I don't really want it. Yeah, I'm getting it. But what's interesting is, as you're saying that I'm realizing like, so this thing arrived on Friday that Corey ordered. And he's been super into it and excited, like had a friend over to show it to them. And really, really wants me to play it. And it's like, I feel like I'm not trying to be like evasive. It's just it's a pinball machine. But it's like a digital pinball machine. And so you can like play different, but they call tables apparently. Anyway. I love pinball. Oh, okay. Well, next time you visit, I'll be so excited for you to enjoy it. But anyway, because I was like, what? I also kind of hate pinball because, like growing up, I feel like he played pinball. And it feels so pointless and so frustrating. Like, I could never, I just didn't have the patience. I don't know something. So anyway, he's like, really wants me to play it. He's like, do you want to play? Do you want to play like, every time I walked by, I set up a puzzle near him. So I could like, be by him. But anyway, I feel like I'm bordering on stealing some of his joy over this thing. Because I'm so like, No, I don't want to play it. Like I don't actually really like pinball them. So again, like the boundary thing of like, you're enjoying this so much and I am not gonna like get into pinball with you. The kids are they're totally into it. That hurt his feelings. Would you think that would he just looks like a little kid. I gotta tell you, he's so happy with this thing. And that is making me happy seeing him so happy. So I did play it yesterday. And I was terrible at it, of course. And he was like, trying to explain me all the complex dynamics of the board and like, what you're trying to accomplish because it is apparently like a skilled thing with I just, you know, I've always felt like it's a thing where like, this ball just ricochets all over and then you've wasted your quarter. Brush was bought board games before? Yeah, he like really loves war games. And like, there's some that I'm into, but he'll be all excited and you know, have one delivered and it's been a while but and he's like to play this and I'm like, that sounds like death to me. Yeah, the amount of like, rules and things that you're gonna have to explain to me, yes, you have to, like do a practice round like 30 times just to have it. Like, because the interest isn't there. And then like, you know, the how like, him and Sam kind of just are able to like, get the rules right away and play. It's just it's not. Yeah, I hadn't thought about this from like a neuro divergence standpoint, but like, totally. I am not interested in learning the ins and outs of pinball and being a pinball mom the ins and outs so she just like, No, I'm telling you, there's it's all I'll definitely play with them. Yeah, for sure. And like, Yeah, I'm not I'm not geeking out on him, I don't want to get into it necessarily. And I feel like it's one of those things that like those complicated board games, you can't just like, try it and get into it once and like, maybe enjoy it and then move on, he kind of have to like, learn. There's no fawning when it comes down on my mat. I think that's it too. Like, I'm not finding but then I'm like, stuck with all this icky feelings. The internalized experience is different than you I say that, but I won't do it sometimes. But then, like the boundary, the saying no, but then I am still left exhausted, because then I'm still managing. Having said that for myself and knowing that I've probably disappointed and I don't think there's any last exhausting? No, it's It's exhausting to because we also have kids, we have neighbors, we have siblings. Like we have all kinds of other relationships in our lives where this kind of thing is happening, you know, where there's invitations, and there's just, you know, people who are interacting with us in ways that require us to know if we have a yes or no in us. And do you remember like doing that? Where do you remember, it's like, it goes in stages this work. But I remember, there's also that kind of stage where you start saying now but then you tack on like, Well, how about we do this? Oh, my gosh, right. You like create more work for yourself? Because now you can come up with a creative alternative. Let's actually have to have lunch, like in the next two weeks, when you know, you have no time. Oh, my gosh, I've been doing this so much lately. I have my schedule for January and February are truly overwhelming me. And they were even like in December, I was feeling like, oh my gosh, what have I done? And yeah, the people wanting some time and people I want to spend time with and feeling like oh my gosh, I don't have it. And so I need to offer an alternative rather than saying, I mean, I'm available in like March or April. Real bad. I feel like it's the worst with the kids with the littles it's, it's definitely, oh, I'd like to say this to them to where, you know, they come up and they want to do a certain thing. And you're thinking No way. But they want to connect, so you come up with something later in the day, we'll have to finish and they remember, they always are. And the mind will say you use promise your you said we were going to do that. And I'm just like, I was another alternative or it's like, Well, how about we just do this? Why don't you play in the bathtub? And I'll sit there? What No, no? Yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, that's the thing is like, I mean, it's not like this is all fawning. And I mean, some of it is but like, it's also that we do care about these people. And, you know, Coreys joy, and my kids Joy matters to me. And I just feel a little mixed up. And like, I'm not quite there yet with figuring out what that means and how that influences my possible you are from day to day for your art in that I think that's the thing, it's this, this kind of responsibility that we feel to the people that we care about that are you know, that we, you know, have some responsibility and that and I know, it's very nuanced, I don't want to say, well, you know, I have no responsibility towards my children experiencing joy. But I think on a day to day basis, what they want and what they are willing to carve and siphoned from you is for like, at least one of my kids insatiable, right. She just wants more than what any human could possibly give. And so it's like, where do I draw that line? And then like watching the struggle and the discomfort and all of that and not coming alongside, but you it's very tricky, like, well, how much of this is, you know, is mine and hers then this is like, yeah, it's exhausting. It's like, I, I feel exhausted by this way of being in relationship to others. Yeah. And, you know, there is there is a fallout for it. You know, there is relational burnout there is, you know, when, when COVID started, and we went into lockdown, I felt such relief. There was no need to do any hosting, and coordinating. I only had like, one focus that was to like, keep us healthy. Oh, my gosh, it was yes. It was like a vacation. No, it was not really. I mean, it was like, incredibly stressful. And there was so much going on that year, that overall 2020 was, to some degree very traumatic for me, but at the same time in this regard, you know, I think, you know, toward my kids, this wasn't like, it was not a vacation, because they were very young. And I was having to do this so much at home with them. And with Corey with negotiating. But she would have been doing that anyway. I mean, they were at that age. Yeah. Didn't have that weekend, you know, pull up someone having to invite somebody over being available. Yeah. And all that. Yeah, I agree. I mean, that well, that spare time was just like, Well, what do you want to do with it? Like, I mean, some of it, not all of it, because I do have kids. But yeah, there was space for me to launch a business fully into the, you know, world. And, yeah, and I think, you know, as far as this goes, there's a lot of blurred lines, I guess, between Fani, and like, the emotional labor of like, what goes into like, parenting and being a spouse, sibling, I mean, it was just even thinking about, over the holidays, and just the anticipatory, like, mental and emotional labor of meeting the needs and making sure things are equal. And, you know, all the kids felt seen and heard and all of that, and, you know, I think I did a pretty good job of taking care of myself, and it still took a while to come out of that. Yeah, I feel like I'm not yet there. Like, I don't know, I have more I have figured out how to take care of myself, like, in a way that feeds like, my need for learning and curiosity. And, you know, kind of the intellectual side of me, I've managed to do that through my work and like, studying somatic experiencing, and just doing so much learning, and finding like, that is feeding all those parts of me around hobby and interests and all of that. And I'm glad that still feeding me because it's been a few years. So, you know, it's like, oh, maybe I have a hobby. It's just my job. But I, I don't yet know how to really, like, know, where I begin and end and other people begin and how to, like, say, this is what I'm doing with my time. You know, I'm, it's getting easier, like, I'm getting better at it. But I do feel like it's like a disciplined practice, like, making plans with someone or deciding I'm this happened yesterday where I was like, I'm gonna go lay down, and I went upstairs and lay down and put my earplugs in and just like, dosed in and out. And that is like, I'm getting better at that. And that is like the one thing where I'm just like, here's the thing I'm gonna do. And it's during, like off hours where we're both home, and I'm choosing me. And I feel like it's something I want to get better at. I need to get better at it. One thing I started doing, like I guess, towards the end of last year was praying Do Not Disturb on my phone, because I will get derailed if you know my eldest needs me or if you guys text even though I want to be involved. It's like, I don't know from day to day, how much I can engage and what is going to derail me from what I need to get done. And if someone I care about is meeting me or sharing something with me, it can be just the thing that will tell Really pull me away from whatever responsibilities or things I have that day. And especially if I'm writing or creating it, just you know, and so that has been a huge help for me. Because if I see it come up, like on my phone or whatever, even if it's on silent, I can't help and if someone says something activating, or someone is in distress, or whatever, or saying something interesting, like, here, you guys are like, Oh, this is really interesting article, and I'm like, Oh, God, here. And now it's like, I know, I just don't even know what's happening on that phone. And I can't put it in another room necessarily, because I do have to check in with someone cuz I got kids at school and stuff like that. So that's been a huge thing for like, my emotional boundaries, like during, what do you feel like? Do you feel like having that tool to support your boundaries? Do you feel like it's making it? Like, is it improving your ability to like, state and hold a boundary in relationship to other people, like, in real time? Does that make sense? Like, that's a tool that you're using? What happens if it goes away? Are you getting better at the thing? I do think I am. I think that when I discovered, what was derailing me, which is my emotions during the day, and what are the things we're an opportunist, so I don't like necessarily don't get on social media and look at like things that are gonna get me you know, whatever. Having the Do Not Disturb on was kind of like my line in the sand of like, my work time. Is needs to be protected, I want it to be protected. And everyone thinks that just because I'm working from home that I'm available all the damn time. And the thing is, is like, I know you and Becca are working from home. And you guys are similar, like you respond when you can and when you but I feel a certain type of way if I know it's in there. And so knowing that about myself, yeah, I do think that, you know, it has made me you know, with like, Joshua and the kids a lot more like, this is my work time. And so yeah, I do think it has, I think it was like the first step in me kind of saying, this isn't a free for all. I'm not a stay at home mom, that happens to be working. I need the resources and the time to do this full time job. Just because I'm actually in the house does not mean I'm available. And I feel like you know, Jake, you know, my eldest like he far away, but like kinda, she's actually never expected much for me in that way. As far as I, I think I felt like I should be available, like if he would, you know, so now what I don't know won't hurt me. I won't check it. And so I need to check it. And you're not feeling like a pull? I guess I'm saying like, what if Do Not Disturb no longer existed on your phone? Do you feel like it's easier now? Like, has it helped you to resolve or train yourself to be able to interact differently with the discomfort of knowing there's somebody there with something for you, who you don't have time or space to interact with right now? A little bit. Not a ton, but a little bit? Yeah, I do think it's helped a little bit. But the reason why I have it on my phone is because I'm not there yet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But like, I do think that it's helping me to make peace with that boundary for myself of like, this is going to be in place until I'm comfortable really asserting myself in that area. Is if I really felt nothing emotionally, but I would just have taken it. I wouldn't even it wouldn't matter. Right? Yeah, I do. I think it's mentally just kind of been a marker for me of like, this is what we're gonna do. And then I'm doing it too when I'm doing bedtime with the kids. Um, or I'm ready to go to bed. I mean, it really it's kind of on all the time now. And I know that like, you guys will just send your stuff which I want you to, you know. But yeah, there's it's, it's helped me kind of deciding how much I can engage with or not, because sometimes I'll want to do two dots on my phone at night for a little while. And And you and Becca will be going back and forth sending messages. And I don't want to be left out. But I don't necessarily want to fully engage at that point. Yeah. Depends. And if I look and I'm like, Oh, they're talking about stuff, and I want to I will. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think we're Yeah. I think the other day, we did my phone. I had 38 text messages that had come in within like an hour. And I was like, what is happening? Oh, is you guys I mean, it's you and Becca, if I've got 30 or 40 messages, it's it's the sisters. It was the thread with Matt's baby, though. So it was the cousin's baby. So I was like, Oh, this is a fun one. Anyway, well, we should call it but yeah, it's like, tired. Yeah, no, it's a good topic. I think, you know, this idea of like boundaries and fawning and like, where do I begin an end? And what's okay, how do I say no to things? If I really can't, it's just, it's contributing to exhaustion for a lot of people, especially those of us who are also caregivers of some kind, and are working outside of the home. It's just what is such a, like? We said earlier? So much of it, too. Is this like, internal experience that we're like, why am I so tired? I mean, that was Yeah, I guess it doesn't really have anything to do with like life stage or what responsibilities you have. It's like, totally internally. Are you feeling okay with having a difference of opinion or needing things or wanting things? And are you wearing yourself out with like, fawning, and then internalizing all the stress around what you really needed and wanted to do? Or even getting into the systems, the oppressive system? Oh, gosh, no, this is like, just like interpersonal stuff, right. And I think that's actually really important to say that, like, none of this just exists within us, like, if you are somebody that this is resonating for like, it's not your fault, like this stuff is learned. It's rewarded, it's passed down. It's structured within every system we operate in. Like we are expected to be robotic in so many ways that it's funny that you say that I know I need to go but I have a new a newer client. And he is a senior and I, we were talking about people pleasing and all that. And we've actually known him a long time. And and we were talking about this last night in a session and I was thinking I said I said you get a lot of kudos when you're a kid and you don't have a lot of needs, that you're like the Easy breezy in the room. You're the one that like, yeah, roll with the punches or whatever. And you can understand why people adopt that because that is highly praised. Thanks for being so easy. You're so easy. Yes. It just makes me cringe. I hear that about my kids from their teachers and, and we we know our kids aren't easy. I hear that about my youngest and she comes home and has meltdowns because she's an advocate or ask for what she needed all day, which is the whole other thing. She's Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. Sorry, that's too long, but not sorry. Sorry, not sorry. Love you. Love you. Bye bye.