15 - Sensory Everything | The Sleepy Sisters Podcast

Sensory seeking and sensory avoiding and sensory meltdowns... oh my! One of the trickiest parts of neurodivergent living is the sensory experiences we endure. In this episode we're going to start the conversation about all things sensory input.

Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com

Transcript

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Music. Welcome to the sleepy sisters podcast. This is episode 15. Woo. Doing it so fun. I'm Elizabeth brink and I'm Sarah Durham, and we are going to talk today about sensory stuff, but we have not prepared, and we are not going to edit this per usual, so I just like to always add that disclaimer of sorts. Okay, so I have been like itching to talk about this, mostly because it is it runs our lives, oh my gosh, from inwardly and externally, in our homes, at every possible layer, it runs my life. Yeah, I feel like I could be like when I was a small child, like, just to start way back, but I'll spare you, I I have been thinking a lot about so I said, we don't prepare, and we don't, but I have been thinking a lot about this, and like reading stuff about this idea of sensory seeking, and then when you look that up, A lot of stuff about sensory avoidance comes up, and a big part of my motivation has been a suspicion I have that one of my kids is having sensory meltdowns, which I thought were panic attacks. And I think thinking of them as panic attacks was helpful for a minute, because it was at least like giving me a framework of something bigger is happening here. This isn't just like a tantrum or like I didn't I'm not getting my way. It was bigger than that. But the more of looked into it and then also checked in with a couple of people who are in the mental health field and who have more experience with this stuff, the more I'm like, Oh, I think these are sensory meltdowns. And so it has really spurred me on to understand more of the kind of sensory profile, if you will, of each of my kids, which always leads me back to me right? And the world is right. It's just like, it's all about me. And so, yeah, so I so I wanted to talk about this also, because it comes up a lot with my clients, for them, but also my caregiver clients, it comes up a lot with stuff happening with their kids, so I think there's lots to talk about in relation to it, and it, maybe it's something we talk about again sometime in the future. But definitely wanted to start the conversation. So I wanted kind of define some terms, and I'm not reading any definitions off of any official site. I am literally just making this up based on essence. This is the Kathy Snyder way, which is our mom's name, and this is the way she would do things. She would just present information as fact. And then we would all be like, Oh, okay, which I tried to do two days ago. I said something to one of my kids about how I didn't think moths had like nerves where they could feel, if you like, grab them by their wings. And Corey looked at me and was like, Do you know that? No, I'm totally making it up. Okay. Sounds convincing. Anyway. Okay, so sensory seeking is when an individual is hypo sensitive, so, like, less sensitive to sensory input, and so they may tend to to seek out sensory input that is, you know, more intense, so that they can actually, like, register it as input. So some of the classic things that I read up about are, you know, these might be kids or adults who, you know, hug really tight or walk really with really heavy steps, which is interesting side note that, like in their body, there's a lot of like, actions that are taken that result in a sensory boom, if you will. That's me just making a word. I didn't make up the word boom, but using it in this context, sensory seeking might also be talking really loudly, screaming and yelling all these different things, if you think of sensory input, eating really spicy food, what's some other ones, like lots of lights. They don't mind strobe lights, yeah, lotions and yeah, emotions. And perfumes and yeah, like, just bring it on. I love it, and they wear lots of it that could be sensory seeking. And there could be a lot of reasons why somebody wears a lot of perfume, but for other people, there can be hypersensitivity to sensory input, and so they might find themselves trying to avoid sensory input, and that could look like wearing earplugs, or just like having responses to loud noises, wanting TV or radio turned down a lot, definitely not wanting to be next to someone on a plane who is wearing perfume assigned to people chew loudly. Yes, misophonia. Yeah, being able the opposite, being sensitive to the echolalia is the avoidant, exactly, being able to hear people chewing exhibit a but then also, like irritating, and you can be someone who actually likes to engage in echolalia, and then if someone else does it in the room is completely annoyed by it's irritating. So echolalia is repeating. It's mimicking, sounds things like that. And is common for autistic folks, and you know, some other types of neurodivergences. But, um, yeah, so they're these, these two kind of extreme profiles around, like sensory seeking, sensory avoidance, and then kind of thinking of it more like, I think of it a little bit more of a spectrum. You know that, like, you can be someone who appears to be hypo sensitive, so you appear to be in this is hard, like, if you don't know what the hypo sensitive, so you can appear to, like, not hear things. But you're actually kind of in a shutdown, because you're so overwhelmed from hearing things. You've been hearing too much. And so you kind of go into this state where people are like, you never hear me talking, right? So some of this could look like the inattentive ADHD profile of like, oh, they space out. And it's like, sure they might be distracted and daydreaming, or they might be kind of in a protective, kind of glazed over mode, because they're overwhelmed by some of the auditory input, the sensory input around them. And so I think that's interesting about like, sensory experiences that you can look you can look hypo sensitive because you're in shutdown and you're actually hyper sensitive and overwhelmed. Like, I think that's really Yeah, and you can also just be really like someone who needs the sensory input but then doesn't know your threshold and then ends up being like, I have no tolerance for it. That, yes, that's right there, gain of my existence. Okay, so that line of I like sensory input, I need sensory input. I maybe need more of it, and then I get overwhelmed and I crash. That would lead to what we would call sensory meltdown. And on the other side of that, that would be, I don't like a lot of it, and I've had to have a lot of it because of the environment I'm in, and I crash and have a meltdown. And the melt sensory meltdowns. If you're not familiar with this term, please look it up and like, find more official like ot people talking about it, but it it looks often like, how do I describe this in a way that's like, respectful, it looks like someone who is out of their body, but their body is like thrashing and like so energized that it's hard to imagine that they're not there because they're filled with rage. Sometimes, often they're, it's very physical, and it's, it can look like a tantrum, yes, screaming and yelling, thrashing around, trying to destroy things around them, saying things that are potentially nonsensical. They're not always but it is a sensory nightmare for a neurodivergent parent who is standing by during one of these meltdowns because it is an assault on the senses. Is that fair to say, Yes, that's very fair to say. It is very Yes. My nervous system goes into like, what a five alarm, like, everything blaring, yes, yeah, yeah. Because, because in it too, there's a helplessness, because their path. The point it is, if they were having, like, if you have ever had a panic attack, I would say even being around, and I don't know if it's because I've only been around kids who've had the sensory meltdown. I have had panic attacks. I've struggled with those. And I'm an adult, so I wouldn't totally compare, but there is a sense of at some point when you're in it, you really don't even know what to ask. Or there's a total like helplessness as the person who is witnessing it, because they're they're not in their body, so to speak, yeah, like anything you do and say escalates it Yes, yes, and and it doesn't make sense, and it's like, you'll it will sound like a broken record at times, and it will be something it's very difficult to disrupt. In fact, I would say it's almost impossible to disrupt a meltdown. Yeah, in terms of, like, comparing the two, I would say, honestly, like a panic attack has been easier to thwart, yeah. Now I will say, I Okay, you can disrupt a meltdown, but it has to happen in the earliest Inklings. Okay, same, same with panic attack. That's true when you first start getting those feelings and knowing enough of like we're going down that road that like, I know one kid that I have that has them, the sensory meltdowns there's I can still reach her before it's actually in the meltdown, though, same here, it's like. So what I've been learning about my kids, and I've been learning this for years, and I've just been like putting language to it in the last few weeks, is that when we have new things going on, like summer camp, and there are new environments, and there's a lot of transitions that are new. So there's the transition from school year to summer, there's the transition from their bed to the day, from the house to the car to the car to the summer camp. There's so many transitions that are brand new in this context for them, and then they're in this environment that's new to them. And we have spent a lot of money on the summer camp that they went to this year. They only went for two weeks, and it's at this place that is, like, kind of magical, and like sensory wise, like one of the most delightful environments I have been in that's labeled a summer camp, okay? Like it doesn't feel like a summer camp. It feels more like a woo, woo school, you know. And energetically feels very good. And still, it is a new environment with new adults, new rules and new kids and activities all day long, and it has resulted in a lot of sensory overwhelm that I didn't really name as sensory overwhelm right away, and so during the two weeks that they have been at this camp, almost every night, one of my kids is having a sensory meltdown before bed. And to say that we are exhausted and maybe slightly traumatized from this would be an understatement. And in addition to that, both of my sweet little neurodivergent children are waking at 5am every day, and have been almost since the time change. So we have this perfect storm for overwhelm and for meltdowns, and I'm just doing a lot of like open curiosity investigating around this idea of like, being sensory seeking and and avoidant and like, how can we help our kids and ourselves learn to notice the signs that we've had too much because the one kid that's having The meltdowns is also my sensory seeker, and so the evening and afternoon is often filled with a lot of like gymnastics activity in the house, like jumping and spinning and wanting to be thrown around and like all this. And I've noticed on these camp days that if that happens in the evening as a part of like our end of day routine, a meltdown happens, and that's when the light bulb went off. Like, oh, this is a sensory meltdown. This kid wants the rough play because they are a sensory seeker, but they actually don't have any capacity left, and it's pushed them over. The line, yeah. And I think that at this point, this is something that often leads to, like, frustration between partners, and, like, even your own internal frustration, because when you have a sensory seeker and you think, Wow, I did a cool thing, I like sign them up for this really awesome camp, and they're gonna love it, and where you do some activity with them, where you know your seekers, like, really just getting their cup filled, that expectation that when they get home, that their cup is going to be filled and it's not going to end the day with this type of a meltdown, is really hard on the system. And if you have, like, a partner or or another parent or whatever, who's like, well, what, what, you know, this is like, I thought they'd be happy or whatever, there's just a lot to manage, because chances are, like, I know in my house, like, we're both neurodivergent, and so we both have sensitive nervous systems and so, you know, I know I met many years where I was like, Okay, this is great. She's going to be so happy when she gets home, and then they get home and it's like, should I have done this? Should I do this? And the answer for me has always been Yes, but it's been in the caring immediately after this, the only way that I've been able to, like, make it not a nightmare, yeah, like the days when there has not been a meltdown, have been days when after camp and in the Evening I am like, holding the line hard about no activity like we are watching TV, even playing video games, to some extent can happen, but is still like, it only can happen if we're playing a game that we're doing together, and this child is responding to me with connection while we're playing like they really like If I play with them, and then there's lots of like, we did it, and so we're still connected. We're sitting close, and there's a lot of eye contact that can happen. But like, for the most part, it's like, okay, I'm talking in a quieter tone. I am giving them foods that are, like, super simple, that I know they will like because they're also really hungry. After these hungry, I think they don't eat because they're so excited. Yeah, yeah, that it's, I'm often like, did you eat the lunch I sent? Did you eat a snack? And I just never enough. Never enough. They always need more because they're they're moving constantly, because there's novelty as well, which is super exciting, yeah, like in during the school year, you know, with my two like, I have one who's a sensory, probably more avoider, and one who's a seeker, like times 10. And so either way, they're they've met their threshold. So immediately, when they get home, they go to separate rooms. It's dark, it's cool. They have a bevy of snacks, like crunchy things that I know they'll like. They get to watch TV, and we do that before. There's no talking, there's no asking about their day. It's literally like, go, go, go, put them in a room, you know, and separate them. That saved us this year. We did that for the first time during the school year. And after that, it was like they were different kids. They would come in and they would just immediately be like, is my room ready, you know? And then after so much time, you know, it's not all night. Obviously, they come out, and it's kind of like re entry into the you've given them, like this little pod for the transition. Yes, yes, yes. Here's how we do this transition, and like, so good for them to know how to do that for themselves. Yes. In fact, I will say that since summer started and we've been doing these other activities, I remember they did something like the first week or so or and when they were done, Sam was like, where's our snack in a room, or whatever? I'm like, oh, because we did a long thing. Just like, okay, so this is something we're going to carry over. Fine. I can do that. We did VBS this last week, which, you know, is like sensory like, like the singing and all this other stuff. And they I had their headphones and a crunchy snack in the car. No talking on the way home, AC, full blast. My husband picked them up one day, and he did not have any of those things despite my recommendations. And I, you know, it's like they come home, different they come home, you know, they've I've picked mine up every day with a. Gatorade, oh, yeah, that will immediately turn on each other. You're in the car, and your system is like, Oh my gosh. Because if you like, for mine, if I bring the crunchy snack, which they like, which is getting that, it's even a sensory seeking. It's like, for some reason, it soothes, it soothes them, right? They can hear each other eat, and if they can hear each other eat, it's not this, doesn't it hits different, okay, I get it. So the headphones with the crunchy snack, yeah, yeah. He, I love that you have figured this out. Because this is like, I mean, y'all, this is so much science well, because if you look at it from just the standpoint of sensory seeker or sensory avoider, I think you really miss what that phrase used earlier that sensory profile. Because I think for the most part, when you have neurodivergent kids and they're twice exceptional, they are complex neurotypes. Right to think that they're gonna hit one side or the other all the time is you're setting yourself up for right? It's like, know the signs of where they are on that they do not know their thresholds. Yeah. So okay, so I also been thinking about myself and thinking about the adult kind of versions of this stuff, because I am seeing it in myself. I am seeing it in my husband as well. And I was thinking back like I was a thumb sucker when I was little. Actually, until I was nine, I sucked my thumb, and I, I know I'm very tactile, and I had Mr lamb, my stuffed animal who I would like, caress with my pointer finger while I sucked my thumb. So, like, very sensory input. And I was trying to think about, like, stories of like, you telling me I always wanted to be picked up, and things like that where I'm like, Okay, I think I can get myself to connect a little bit with that sensory seeker in me, because I do think that I am a sensory seeker. Okay, Sarah, just made the hand talking motion. I mean, you got that's really helpful. Yeah, yeah, in trouble for talking all the time. I got in trouble all the time for talking. And I talk all the time, and I have a ton of words, and I just now was putting that together as, like, sensory seeking. I had not that when you're tired and I'm the same way, like, if I'm a little, like, if I haven't had enough input, and like, I've not been around a grown up all day, all of a sudden, like, my husband's like, you know, taking that in. But when I'm with my sisters, I will typically just talk, talk, talk, and then at some point I'll be like, I'll just like, shut down. Be like, I gotta go in the other I mean, I'm just like, left like, I'll just like, hit a wall. Yeah. Okay, so Kristen and I, my oldest and dear friend, went on a trip together in April, and we were together for three days for the first time in like 17 years, and we talked non stop pretty much all day those three days, and it took me, like, two weeks to recover. That's a lot for I mean, for you, because you are the most chatty person I know. I know I was surprised at how exhausted I was. And I think part of it was that I came back into I had work, I had an SE training, my kids were here, right? It was there wasn't really downtime to recover fully, so it just took longer. But I was surprised at how tired I was. And I think when I start re looking at scenarios like that, and I can think back to when my kids were really young. They're young still, but when they were really little, part of why I thought I was having, like, a major mood disorder mental breakdown was because I was having what I think now were sensory meltdowns, but the version of them in my body as an adult who knows kind of, quote, unquote, how to behave, felt just kind of like a tantrum, like I think I branded them like tantrum me, but I'm now realizing, like, some of the triggers that I had identified for myself Were things we've talked about before getting sweaty and then having a lot of different competing noises happening at the same time. And I would get to this place where my head would feel kind of swirly, and if someone asked me something, I would be really snippy, very agitated. I would also feel like I need to go sit in front of a fan and drink something like frigid cold, like, on the brink of being frozen, and in order to, like, settle back down. And I now am, like, with this, with this lens of, like, sensory seeking and sensory meltdowns, I'm like, Oh, I think those were sensory meltdowns. I. Think I was completely flooded and overwhelmed with sensory input. It was always at the dinner time of the day. I was home with the kids and working during their naps and stressed and going through menopause, et cetera. But like, I do think it's been helpful for me to think back to those experiences and realize like, oh, okay, as you get older, you start to have a little more self control, which has either been disciplined into you or, you know, right, like, or you don't and you like, have a lot of trouble in school. Probably, well, I think as you get older too, you have a lot more control over the input that you get. And when you're a new mom, you don't have any control over that input. If you go to a brand new job, there's a transition period where you don't know the norms, you don't know where to get the quad, you don't know and I think that you know, as adults, it's like, I think when we get good at it is because we have scanned our environment. We've been in it long enough to like, know the safe spots, know how to like, not take because I taught and, you know, I'm just like you. And that was like a sensory nightmare. I mean, it's just like constant but over time, you know, like I would, people would look at me side, because I never had lunch with anybody, you know, I was, I would lay under my desk, you know, yeah, in the dark. So I think that, like, when you're older and like, you go into a transition of something new, or whatever it's like, yes, you can have coping skills and things like that, where we know like, but also too, I think we get really good at figuring out, like, where or where not we're going to take some input in. Like, we get more introvert, but we don't go out. Yeah, you know, I mean, it just has me thinking about, like, these transition times I've identified for the kids, like the beginning of summer, beginning of school year, right after winter break, going back to school. I've thought a lot about how to support them, and I have not thought about my own sensory experience, in sensory meltdown potential in those times, because yours is the opposite yours, like, Well, yours is, I mean, I guess it's not the opposite. I mean, like you have to take care for yourself with them after they come home. But I think about that in summertime, in the holidays, of like, being with my kids all day, I'm like, how am I going to manage how? What kind of time blocks do I need and like boundaries for myself do I need so that I can get things done and not feel like I'm coming out of my skin, especially when you have a seeker who's like, look at man, like one, yeah, but I'm thinking too of like, when those transitions happen and there's a lot of meltdowns, like, these last couple of weeks have been very destabilizing in our house. Oh, you're saying caring for yourself and yeah, like being prepared, not just prepared to support them, but prepared to support me, knowing I'm going to have to support them in a more intense way that is also going to put me at risk for sensory meltdowns. That's why the cave works so well our little caves, because at that point, that is my mental transition of like I am done with my work day, at least for now, and they're having their quiet time, and I mentally shift into second shift. So if I were to, like, in that cave time or whatever, not take any time to mentally be like, Okay, you are no longer having this hat on, you're gonna have to, like, do some things, because not, it's not a cure. It's not like, she doesn't come out and is like, still needs me, and there's, like, all these needs and stuff. It's like, I think that those little rituals help also with me, just to signal to my brain, like it's, you're in this well, yeah, because, like, if in that downtime I'm watching reality TV shows, I will say they have a huge impact on my mood, and I think that there is a lot of sensory input that happens when I'm watching them, especially the ones that I like the most, because they fight on that so I think just really being aware of the fact that, like I am, I am also in this body that has sensory needs, but also, I think I am in a very like defensive position Around my sensory input all a lot of the time, and trying to protect and reduce and I wear earplugs a lot. And I, you know, I ask people to move away from me. I don't like everybody to sit on me all the time, which is a thing that happens with my sensory seeker. This child will be on. On me all the time, and I'm like, this is fine, except that I'm hot or I'm overwhelmed, and I like, can you please move over your leg is sticking to mine? No. Thank you. So I just it's been really helpful. I think even though this has been a really hard couple of weeks, I'm really getting a lot out of thinking about this framework of the sensory profile and trying to figure out how not to, like, pigeonhole anyone into like, this is your sensory profile, because I don't know, and it evolves. But like, having it be a piece of the puzzle when I'm thinking about what is going on for me, or what is going on with one of the kids, then it's not just like, Oh, they're tired. It's like, there's this other element of what kind of tired they are. Yes, I also think too, I was just thinking about both of us, and I think we are sensitive to a lot of different sensory input, and we both also have younger children right now. And I was just thinking about, do you find that, like sometimes you're so on the defense and you're protecting yourself so much that you start getting blah because you haven't done totally your own sensory seeking that, like, feels good to you. You're like, they're, they're taking all of the the input, like, a lot of times, right? And yes, smell lemons. And I want to, like, go put my face in the wind and listen to, like, yes, you know the way, okay, that's so interesting. The way I it is most obvious to me is that I have not listened to music since I had kids. Oh, wow, when it feels so good. And I used to listen to music all the time, not all the time, but a lot. Definitely, when I ever I was in the car, like I had all kinds of playlists, like, I loved listening to music, I loved dancing, and since I have had kids, it's like that sensory threshold is just cut off right there. Yeah, I have to remind myself. I feel like I still have a capacity for that. But I think because I've been protected for so long, I have to remind myself, like, what would it be like if I just put a song on and I will, like, put a song on and I'll dance, and I'm like, This is life, like, music is life. And I'm like, my brain's like, zapping, and I'm just like, this is, this is like, what it's like? What? Why haven't not done this in like, in that. Because I'm just always like, How can I reduce input? So I'm not a troll, right? Yeah, and I try to reduce input so I'm not mean, that's what I'm saying, a troll. Like, I'm like, Yeah, troll under the bridge. Like, not like, the current like, troll, not the sweet, cute Poppy troll, yeah, the fun one. No, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. I think a lot of my sensory meltdowns are I think about like when we used to have family gatherings, and we were talking about this in the last episode, when we talked about anger and entertaining and all of that. It's like a lot of times when I had outbursts at family gatherings, I am now suspecting these were sensory meltdowns, that it was too much, it was overwhelmed. Then something happens or doesn't go right, the recipe didn't turn out quite right, or someone isn't here on time, or they came, but they brought their own thing. Whatever it is, it will be like the straw that breaks the camel's back, but it will be no big deal, and I would feel enraged. Well, yeah, because think about it too, like we're also, like, managing the energy in the room. We're also like, that fawning piece and that like, of like, making sure everyone's having a good I mean, the layers, like, oh my god, the layers, and if you have not close family, the masking, I mean, it's like the amount our system is going through. I'm just surprised, like, when I think about that inside out to that when she's at the control don't give away anything. So, yeah, what anxiety is at the control panel I'm just like, that is that feels like maybe a birthday party, right? Like a Thursday well, and I think that it's helpful for me to think of it in terms of, like, Okay, where can I notice where a sensory meltdown might have been a factor in something that happened with me so that I can start to, like, kind of rebrand some of those stories for one, you know, like being able to say, like, oh, okay, well, I was completely overwhelmed. And yes, there's all kinds of. Stressed anger, and there's right, all these layers of things. And also my neurotype and my nervous system are prone to overwhelm and to that, you know, switch getting flipped and being into a place where I can't come back down until an outburst has happened. And that piece of it, I think, is the nervous system. Piece around the system wants to push me all the way up so it can turn off, because it cannot come down any other way. It doesn't feel like and that's what I'm seeing in one of my kids right now, where like they're sensing they need that, and they're saying to me, I want to have a meltdown, because now we've named it, and we're like, talking about it more, and they're saying, I can see them thrashing around trying to rev themselves up. And I'll say, Are you wanting to have a meltdown? And they say, Yeah, I just want to, like, get it out, because it feels good after and I'm like, Oh no. Totally energetically, like, resonate with that, yes. But also I'm like, there's all this excess energy that's trapped. I mean, you think about like they're under like, new authority, new rules. They don't get to manage the input. And so the price saying no inside a lot, yeah. I mean, this kid said to me, I don't want to go to camp. And I said, I know you don't. And I think what is happening is, in the evening, all your I don't want TOS are spilling out, yeah, and it's okay, you need to get those out, but I would like us to try to get them out in a way that is not so stressful for your body, because ultimately, when I'm watching this happen, I'm just seeing like nervous system flooding. This is just not good for you, and if we can find ways to avoid that and to get you to sleep because you're overtired and that there is an element of it that is pent up energy that needs release, but there's also a big part of it that is not going to be able to be released. It they need to sleep. Yeah, you know, I will say my daughter. I say it's her, like, she doesn't know who that is, but like, so she it. I'll say Nora, because I've said their names before. So she is a little older, and she has will name, like, if she's feeling off, and I don't really know, like, what the the combination is, or whatever, but she will say, I need to go swing. And so she'll go out and she'll swing. Sometimes it's before her day starts. Sometimes it's as soon as you know, she gets home from doing something else. Sometimes it's after, like, more in school, and she's been in the cave, she'll like, I'm gonna go swing now. Unfortunately, there's a lot of grasshoppers out there right now, so she doesn't like jumpy things, so that's been putting a corner style. She's not happy about that, but, um, but I do think, like, I hear what you're saying, like, we're not necessarily looking to avoid the meltdown. We're looking to soften and try to get them to, like, lean into other ways to like, release what needs to be released. So we're not shutting it down, like, oh, you need a bath. It could be that day. They could be about and sometimes she will ask for a bath, but when sometimes she asks for something else, it's interesting, though, because swinging is still input, but it's different. And I also think sometimes with the sensory overload, it's not necessarily about no sensory it's about shifting right time, the right kind. So she's getting wind, she's looking at the tree, she's out looking at nature and green, and then she's also doing the swing. And it's quiet, rhythmic, yeah, yeah. I think, well, it's just like we talked about before, when she was, like, going to bed, and I was like, oh, we need to have quiet time. And she needed, like a 32nd dance party. So I guess it's really about it is really about knowing that, like when this kid in particular is overtired, they look to me like they need more sensory input. They get more active, but that actually engaging in that and encouraging it might empty them out to a place where they tip over that line into a meltdown. And so finding that right amount of and finding the right timing last night, we did bedtime way earlier and and so it's like all these, it's like all this, like intricate dance of like trying to figure out the right combination. And the hard part is they both still woke at 5am even though they fell asleep by seven and they were more rested. So that was great. But. Like they're going to be tired tonight. So it just, it's this like perpetual thing that I'm like, I want them to understand. I don't want them to feel like they are just badly behaved monsters, which is, I think, how a lot of kids who act like this are treated. It's certainly how I have felt about myself when I have been in that kind of snippy I can't shake this bad mood feeling, and I don't want them to feel that way, and I want them to know how to watch for the signs and how to like do these different things for themselves. But in the meantime, slow process. Man, it's a slow process in. There's no like, one and done. It's like, you we check in. My kids are older too. Like, you know, we check in to see it's still not sometimes, you know, they they don't know. Sometimes it's past the point before they even get to you, yeah, and you have to we, I just want to remind everyone that it's also like a lot of times this is from good stuff. This is from the good stuff. And it's like, really hard for them to understand. There's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of confusion with other people watching, of like, I don't understand. They should have just had the time of their life. They probably did. Why are they being so ungrateful? They're just damn, yeah, yeah. And it's like, they probably did. I know, you know my daughter, she's all she's said often lately, like, I just cry all the time, or whatever. I'm like, Well, I said I cry more than anybody in this house, you know? I mean, I I'm crying all the time, um, but like, she's like, that's just like, how I am. And I just, we have to have to have these constant conversations about like, there are reasons why this is happening. Blah, blah, blah. And I just feel like, as much as I get something right, that I'm not so I want to also normalize like this is just, we're all just trying to do the best we can. This is like, hard, and it's, they're young and they're developing, and like them, adults have a hard time checking in with their bodies. Yeah, it's not. I mean, we, do we? You know, right now, like Melissa hasn't listened to music since, like, the only music I've been listening to lately is JoJo Siwa and Taylor Swift because my kids have declared these two, oh yeah, the karaoke stuff that comes up, you could tell my word y'all, yeah, nothing I want to be listening to, but whatever. Um, so yeah. Anyway, I this has been really helpful for me personally. So thank you for having this conversation with me, we are going to be on a like short hiatus for a few weeks, and then we'll be back. I don't know what we'll talk about when we come back, but sure, it'll be riveting. It sure to be just as rambly as everything else about Anyway, okay, this gave me a lot to think about too. So thank you. Yeah, me too. I mean, because we all have sensory needs, and it's I think what I'm taking away right now is what I said about the like to you about what am I not getting that I need to like for my own the pleasure, right? The pleasure, yeah, that I will say, I do love to swim. And when I go swim with the kids and I go under the water, I feel like a little kid again. And sometimes I'll tell them, because immediately when I get in, it's like, can you throw the ball? Can I swim to you? And I'm like, I need to get warmed up, and I will just swim all over that pool underwater by myself for like, a good five minutes before I get into anything with them. Because I do love that. Yeah, I love that. Oh, well, I can't wait to do that with you in a couple weeks. I know. Okay, all right, love you too. I You.