18 - Embarrassment | The Sleepy Sisters Podcast

Were you allowed to feel embarrassed as a kid? Did you feel it often? We're diving in and finding our own somatic experience with feeling embarrassed. 

Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

This is the sleepy sisters Podcast. I'm Elizabeth brink, and I'm Sarah Durham, and I realized in the last episode that one of us was coughing at the very beginning of the episode before we introduced ourselves, probably you. And it just made me laugh, because I was like, Yeah, we're not editing this people. We're not prepared. We just, we just logged on and we were like, What do you want to talk about today? We should have just recorded that part of the conversation. So we're going to talk about disappointment and embarrassment and getting embarrassed, especially getting embarrassed in how it links up with disappointment and how these things can produce shame in people. This is a theme that I see in a lot of the work I do with clients, and I think probably in my own life, in the past as well. I think I can definitely trace lots of stories of being disappointed, being embarrassed, being disappointed that I'm embarrassed, being embarrassed that I'm disappointed, just like the they are surprisingly interconnected for me, and I think for a lot of people, so I thought it would be interesting for us to kind of explore a little bit of this. What's funny is, I think I said, either in an IG live or in another podcast episode that I don't get embarrassed, and so now we're having a whole topic about it. And here's the thing, is that I historically have, yes, been embarrassed. I think that I still do get embarrassed, but I just wanted to say that I've got plenty of stories around being embarrassed. I think as I get older, it doesn't affect me the same way. Or maybe I have enough guard rails up, which may be another problem, to not put myself in risky situations that might end up causing disappointment or embarrassment. Yeah, I have another theory that could be at play some of the time too, is in somatic experiencing. There is this idea of coupling dynamics, when things get connected to each other that don't belong together, and then undercoupling, when things are not connected but should be. And it's not a it's not an SE idea. This is a concept that exists in the world about a lot of things, but in trauma work, there is this idea of things being under coupled so things like a memory of being very embarrassed, and that memory being painful or uncomfortable, and that your brain has kind of packed it away as like that never happens to me. I never get embarrassed. It's like, actually not on your radar anymore, because it's been kind of tucked away and that would be considered under coupled that, like from this topic of embarrassment, like, oh, actually, there are some things that fit in that category, but they were maybe so painful or so upsetting or whatever, that you know, you just instinctively to protect yourself from the intensity of feeling that kind of packed it away. And we're like, okay, let's just set that over there, and we'll just, yeah, I mean that tracks, because I when I think about now, my experience around embarrassment versus, like, when I was younger, like, if I put myself back into a situation and just have the memory of it, like back 1213, years old, like that. I can feel the sensations. Know what that was like, all of that, right? But when I think about embarrassment, like, times I'm embarrassed now, there's a different cognitive experience versus the sensations that are going on in my body. So the tucking it away tracks that I am not embodying the full experience of embarrassment, that I have a cognitive track that goes through my head that helps me tuck away those as those sensations come up, that's so wild I'm thinking about that like this is happening in real time. I know I'm so curious, like, what are you experiencing right now? Is there a sensation coming up? There is my throat. I want to clear my throat so I have this thing. And Elizabeth knows this about, go ahead and do it. Okay, so when I am in a situation where I have to speak publicly or, you know, offer up something in a group. Mean, it just kind of depends on what the dynamics are, depends on what my mental state is, all that, but it's always around, using my voice in some way. When this sensation comes up, I feel the my throat kind of start wanting to clear. I actually feel like fluid or mucus. Now, I've been sick all week, so it's definitely I feel that way already, but I can feel this like sensation come up in my throat sometimes right before I talk, while I'm talking, and then I'll go in the throat clearing bonanza for like an hour afterwards, and it's interesting because I do have a little bit of a throat clearing. I don't want to know. I don't know if it's like a stem. I don't do it all the time, but I do it enough to where my sisters obviously notice it and but it is acute when there's a threat of embarrassment, which is like so wilding around. But I can feel that. I can see it in my throat coming up right now, yeah, can you just give it what it wants? Yeah, yeah. How does that feel to give it what it wants? What it wants. Feels good. It feels good. How do you how do you know it feels good? Because I just relaxed. It just relaxed in my throat, nice. Yeah, so. But it is funny because it actually will sometimes keep me from speaking, because I if I feel that coming on, it'll keep me from sharing, like in a class or something. I don't feel this way when I'm one on one. I don't feel this unless there's confrontation involved, but like with, when I with my clients, like this sensation, I don't feel it. I mean, I feel very relaxed. But I'm talking to you guys when, even when I was a teacher and I was with my group of students, but you put me in a group of my peers, where I'm speaking in front of them, and depending on my mood and my confidence level that day, or whatever. I wouldn't even say it's totally consistent. I've never done a deep dive research project on myself to see what the themes are of when it specifically comes up, if it is an external thing, like it's actually like, oh, it's peers, and it's around this, top these topics, or if it's my state, you know, or if it's like a perfect storm of both, I'm not really sure, but I know it's not a consistent thing, which is very frustrating, because it becomes unpredictable. And it's not around things necessarily that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that it's like I'm taking a risk, like there's been times in like coaching classes or speaking, you know, even recording, like talks, like for different ADHD things or whatever, where I know everything I'm talking about, I know I Have a plan, I'm I'm well versed in a topic, and something will hit me, right or wrong or whatever, and all of a sudden I can feel it, you know, doing that, and it's absolutely frustrating, because it doesn't really feel like a solid representation, because I guess for me, there's a there's something about that reflects a lack of confidence, or that I'm nervous, but because It's disconnected from my cognitive experience, sometimes it's confusing because I'm like, This person doesn't actually make me nervous. Like, I don't actually feel like I care. I'm like, those aren't the thoughts that are going through my head. Like, oh my gosh. Are they going to think this or this? It's just physically happening in my like, your body is having a different experience. It is. It's like, I mean, it sounds like, tell me if I'm wrong. It sounds like there is, like a preemptive nervousness, or maybe there's a fear of being embarrassed by whatever, like seeming, you know, like you have a lack of confidence, or whatever it is. And then there is this other layer of this particular somatic thing that happens to you is embarrassing. Yeah, I'm Yeah, I would say yes. And it's funny, because I think about when I was younger man, I did a lot of bold stuff, but I, you know, I. One of the common themes for me was to do kind of outlandish things for someone with my personality and not necessarily always follow through. Like, you know, I'm thinking about, I don't know if I'm going on a tangent here, so I don't want to, we can't know until we're there. I'm just, I'm having these like different events run through my head, of like, Yeah, time period of like, Early Middle School, late elementary school, where, you know, I did things like, I ran for student council, I went up, I gave this, like, glowing speech, and did all this stuff, and I got elected, and I never went to any of the meetings, you know, like I I went and I auditioned for a singing part in this big choir concert in sixth grade, and I Got it, and I never went to the concert. Really, I've never heard these stories. Yeah, it was I the song, sung blue by Neil Diamond, and me and this other girl got a duet. Well, she ended up doing a solo. So, because I, but I would do these things, of like, just enough to, like, take the risk and do the thing, but something always kept me from falling through. And it's just so interesting. That's the first time I kind of remember, I was in a jazz class, and I took all these classes to do a recital, and then I never did the recital. You know so this, I don't know if this is related, but it's what's coming up for. Yeah, interesting. I'm like, Oh, do you what do you notice happening? Somatically, as you're remembering these things, I do. I feel pretty light. I mean, I don't feel it makes me laugh. I mean, I feel a little tension around like, okay, there's like, a paradox of feelings going on right now. Like, I feel, you know, I think, because I've written about some of this stuff, and I've, like, processed a lot of this stuff, and with my middle starting middle school. I've been thinking more about this stuff lately. So there's a little bit of tension on my ears and my jaw, my shoulders, but more of me is like, kind of like light and hearty and just kind of like, oh my gosh, what a little peculiar kid I was. And the thing is, is that that behavior only started around that time. I mean, before then, I was happy to be in the spotlight and, like, happy to be the, like, teacher's pet and all those other things. So anyway, so there is, like, this kind of, I don't know, I guess what's coming up for me a little bit, and I don't know if I'm right about this. I haven't processed this at all, but I wonder if, like, now, when I'm taking risks or I'm trying things, if the somatic stop, this thing is the stop point and not like, where I wouldn't go to the event, or I just wouldn't go to the thing. A lot of my risk taking stuff is now around my voice and talking and putting myself out there that way. And if there isn't a we don't have a system for you to follow through on this. You know completely, I don't know. I'm curious what's happening right now with that tension that was around your ears and your shoulders. Um, I mean, it's there, it's tingly, it's, you know, but it does, it's not strong, it's not strong, it's not strong. And can you tell, does it go, like, down your shoulders, into your back or into your arms or your front body? But everything always goes to my chest. You know that? I mean, but it doesn't, I don't know it's not. It's or my jaw. My jaw is usually the the place when I'm doing the trying to lighten up the tension part. Yeah, you know, when I'm doing the exercise of, like, going back and forth, that it's usually, if I'm feeling tense, it's in my jaw. I don't know. It's just so I don't know how we got on this, but I it's so interesting to me, because I am a classically someone now will say, I don't get embarrassed. Mm, hmm, which is asinine, because it's a human emotion that everyone goes through. And I did spend a lot of time doing really embarrassing stuff when I was a kid. Or, you know, yeah, sounds like things that I can't tell if you're saying you felt embarrassed about not following through At those times, or if you have assessed it as that should have been embarrassing. I don't know. I mean, yeah, that it should have been embarrassing. I don't honestly think I did feel embarrassed. I think I just didn't do it. I was like, I'm not doing that. Like, I don't have any recollection of, like, toiling over it in my like, yeah, you know, I have no memory of that. Just kind of like, meh. Like, I got the thing done I want I got elected. Cool and then like, but when I look back, I'm thinking, man, there's so many things that I there's so many experiences that I only took halfway. Like what stopped me? Was it disinterest, or was it did I not think I was worthy? Did I not want to be. Was I starting to I think it sounds to me like you took it all the way to the point you wanted to, like, for you the whole experience, because you just said, I got elected cool. And it just made me think, like, that was the whole way for you. Yeah, maybe I didn't think about what came after that and like, oh, there's meetings I have to go to, like, you know, I have to do stuff, you know, that I just kind of imposes, like, I want to get up there and give a speech or whatever. That's totally true, that that's a good perspective to think about, because I'm always now thinking about, how am I playing it small, and how am I, you know, not taking enough risks or whatever, but maybe I'm measuring that by what I see other people do with different opportunities and not what I really want to do. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I think what's interesting is this whole idea around embarrassment and shame. You know that, like embarrassment is so heavily tied to shoulds and expectations, right? And I think that's probably how I see it loop back into being connected with disappointment, because it's related to expectations that either we think others have of us or we have of ourselves. And you know, when you add in, like the giftedness, there's expectations there about being good at things that creates a lot of confusion and pain for a lot of people who are not good at certain things right away, and so the relationship to disappointment and embarrassment and shame can get you know really well formed early on. If someone isn't saying to you, Well, you got what you wanted out of it. You did the part that you wanted to do. I mean, I have similar stories about quitting things, and I think a lot of folks, especially those who identify with like an ADHD style brain, can relate to not finishing things, losing interest, or it getting too complicated, or not really knowing how to prioritize it, or realizing that it was a distraction from something you really needed to do, and and I think you know, it's interesting To think about the component of disappointment and embarrassment when I scan back on my own life and think about, you know, quitting dance, quitting piano, quit like because to me, that's the story. It's not, oh, I took dance. It's I quit dance, I quit piano. And you're telling these stories as I ran for student council. I did this preparation for a recital. It's almost like a different way of seeing those events. And I just think it's interesting how we kind of tell ourselves these stories. We make meaning out of how it went, or how other people said it went, or should have gone. And then there is this we have to kind of deal with shame, which is so sticky. And Kathy Kane is a somatic expert and talks about how shame sticks to things it doesn't belong to. It's very sticky, and it gets all mixed up. And I. Uh, and connected to a lot of stuff. And I think, you know, embarrassment is like this visceral experience of shame. And I know for me, disappointment and expectations are just like right there lurking in the you know, their stage left ready to do their number, they're probably purport embarrassment is probably proportionate to the amount of expectations that you are feeling from others and yourself to the situation right, which is why I said earlier, like, maybe I'm not putting myself in enough, like deeply risky things, because, you know, maybe the little embarrassment from this or that is like, and a big deal. But if you are, you know, like, you'll put yourself on a stage in front of, you know, your people, and talk about a thing and, well, I know, I don't know you don't get embarrassed with that stuff, do you? No, I like it, yeah, I know you like it, um, and, but I could be embarrassed. I could absolutely get embarrassed in that setting. Yeah, it I think about too. Like I had this question once, when I was I had a few clients who were kind of grappling with embarrassment, like just things, stories, things that had happened, where they felt very embarrassed and and it just had me wondering, like, what if, when we looked at something that was embarrassing, we asked ourselves, like, well, is that objectively embarrassing, or is it disappointing? If it's if it's related to expectations, it's like, oh, I didn't meet the expectations. How embarrassing. And it's like, well, how disappointing. And so are we having trouble experiencing disappointment? Is embarrassment easier? Oh yeah, that's a good point, because they are definitely different. Because I wasn't disappointed that I peed my pants in the fifth grade. I was embarrassed. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, but giving a presentation and preparing, you know, and kind of flubbing through it, you know, and knowing you know, not knowing why it would be more a disappointment, because I took all this time to prepare. I knew what I was doing, and you know what I'm saying. So I do think that they are different. I think disappointments hard it is. I think because we're not we weren't really allowed to be disappointed. I don't feel like we were, yeah, I feel like when we were little, it was, like we always had, you know, it's like, you need to have a good attitude, you can't, you know, I'm saying, it's, I'm having this, like memory pop up of when I was in my late teens, maybe early 20s, post high school. And I, I know you've heard this story, but I was out, I was out shopping with mom on a Saturday, and it was a few years after high school, and I had gained weight, and I had ran into somebody who I'd gone to high school with, and they had a stroller with a kid in it. They had had a kid, and it was like a hey, you know, haven't seen a long time, or whatever, and they asked me when I was due, when my baby was due, essentially, I was not pregnant. And I got through the interaction, and I got up to the car, and I remember I was sobbing. I mean, I remember feeling devastated and horrified by the interaction and I had obviously, I had a lifetime ahead of me of contending with my belly, but in that moment, it was like the first time someone else saw it and said something that I felt like was embarrassing and and layered in there was my disappointment that I that I had let my body be like this, which is ridiculous now, but um, and I remember because Saturdays were like the day we'd go out, we'd run errands, we'd go out to lunch, go get some Tex Mex or whatever. They were like a mom day, often, and I remember that I was I was crying, and mom's reaction, she was like mad at me. I think, I'm not sure if she was mad at me, but there I felt like I I was being foolish by being so upset. And I think she said something like, um, oh, cut it out. Like she, you know, she kind of thought the whole thing was ridiculous. Is kind of the vibe I got like that it was ridiculous that that person said that to me and that like, I should absolutely not feel as emotionally hurt as I felt about it. And I just remember, like, sitting in the car, you might have even been with us. I can't remember if I was like I was, I think I was in the backseat, and I remember just crying, and then feeling like I shouldn't be crying. And it was this whole cacophony of confusion, because it was like, This thing just happened that was like horrifying to me. As a 19 or 20 year old, I was so embarrassed, and then I was immediately kind of scolded for responding to my embarrassment, and I just tucked it away. Yeah, yeah. And my immediate like reaction to that is that she was trying to rescue you from your pain, you know, in that kind of, like, just swipe it away, like, like, shove it under the rug, man, just Yeah, yeah, which we know now obviously, like, we work really hard to not do those things, but yeah, this, that's really sad, because you probably just need to really, like, have a good cry about it. Yeah, I just needed somebody to say like that. That would feel so bad to have somebody like, mislabel your body and like, right? Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, because years later, I think I did work around it in therapy, like, I'm not feeling activation around it right now, which is interesting too, but, but it ties in so much to, like a lifetime of a story of my relationship with my body, including that there is this piece around disconnecting from that somatic experience that like there's something happening. I'm having a reaction to this interaction, and I'm being told to disrupt it, which in some places and spaces with healthy and safe support, disrupting flooding and overwhelm is actually a good idea, right? Like ideally, I would have had someone there who would have helped me calm down while attuning and validating and, you know, like, let me feel the feeling, but not to the point where I was, like, so dysregulated and activated that, you know, that it kind of seared the experience into my Yeah, to my system. And I think it is a really good example of just, like, a kind of an extreme example of what you were saying, like, this little tiny bit all along of, like, you just, like, why would you be embarrassed about that? Like, what? It's ridiculous. That person doesn't know what they're talking about. Yeah, and we know what we resist persists, right? So, yeah. So I think about that. What you just said about the being scolded me saying not being allowed to be disappointed or whatever, right to experience some of those hard things, and then what I said earlier about the disconnection between the sensations in my body and what my cognitive like my messaging system, is my brain is saying to me, like, you're fine. Yeah. My body's like, No, I'm not fine. Yes, yes. And that's like, that whole generation that was, was the line that, like, I think, as I became a parent, I felt like, I don't want to rush to my kids side when they are hurting, and just repeat over and over again, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, it's okay, you're okay, you're okay. If you are ever around kids in public, you will hear people doing this, like, this is like, still the default, and I think it is one of those things that does create a lot of confusion internally, because it's not helping me feel like I'm actually okay. I watched a whole video with someone that you i you follow on Instagram. She's in somatic experiencing. She's an expert on functional freeze. I've talked through like this whole of how that's functional freeze kind of gets started. And she gave a whole example about a kid being on a bike and falling and being told that you're okay, and then having to get back on their bike and. Just about like the being aware of it initially, not forcing yourself to complete the thing. If you get there and you're like, No, there is resistance here. This, actually, I don't want to do this. This doesn't feel good, like we're not. Don't push your body and system to do something. It's like feeling like there's a no part of it is also, you know, honoring that right, like, that's the other side of the coin, is when we were younger, you couldn't back out of stuff, and so the fact that you did back out all these things is incredible to me, that there's not, like, a really painful piece of the story of, like, I didn't show up and then I cried and, you know, Mom and Dad were upset with me, or my teachers, you know, were mad at me. It's like, I mean, part of that was I was feral and, like, Mom and Dad didn't even know I was doing half of this stuff. You know, I'm just, like, running my own life here as the eldest sister and, like, parentified Number one, you know, I'm saying, well, that's a problem in and of itself, but in this way, it's like, okay, well, you were spared from the you know that, and that's something like mom and dad, I think, did well, like they were not fixated on our performance in that way. Like there was some freedom there with that. So it did not drive us to be excellent in a way that people do now, that, yeah? Like, I never felt that pressure, like my grades, I was were gonna get me in trouble. Never felt that. And I think at the time, I felt like that meant they didn't care, because all my friends parents cared about their grades, or it felt like they did, and just needed the man. I mean, she was like, not having it. She was vocal with me about that, so, yeah, like, she just actually believed it was better for our development that we not be Yeah. So there, like, there was Yeah, freedom. I'm also thinking too about that recent thing that happened where I did get embarrassed, and we've talked about it before, I think on IG, live with the class, and I said something, and you were in the class. You were one of the instructors in the it was a coaching seminar, and I did that thing and got blood. I just couldn't I was tripping over my words, and I could feel it coming out before I said anything. I was bound and determined. I was like, You're not taking overthrowt You're just not doing it. And it did anyway. And so there was no gentle, like reminder, like you're okay. It was like, you're going to do this and shut up. Okay. And so I did it because I really wanted to not stop myself from doing it and then having you there. I don't know. I just got off after we were done, and I turned my camera off, and then we were done, I just like cried because I was embarrassed that it happened. That's probably like the most recent experience where I just kind of pushed myself through it. So when I said earlier, like, I'm just gonna make myself do it, that's what happened last time. And that won't necessarily happen every time, I just think, like in that moment, you made the best decision you could. You were you were with your body, you were okay. I can feel this, and we're gonna do this. And then you let yourself cry after. And, you know, a big part of this is the after. You know, it's like after, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, we can't prevent, we can't prevent getting embarrassed. I mean, this is, you know, it's a protective thing that happens in our nervous system. And I think a lot of the intensity around embarrassment and disappointment is that we do try to avoid it, and so there's a lot of tension around what if I get embarrassed, and then when I do, I have no capacity for it, because I have been working so hard not to be put in this position and to not feel this, yeah, totally. But I was just thinking too like I don't feel I also am proud of the fact that even with my kind of layered relationship with embarrassment, is that I'm never so embarrassed that I don't apologize, like if I do something, I will repair, and that's a muscle I've had to build up over time. But if I say something boneheaded or my tone or whatever, that I feel embarrassed, you know how I showed up, I don't have a problem, or parent, I won't double down and get my ego and get arrogant and just be like, What do you what's your problem? Because we see that in society all the time, right? People are doing things that are embarrassing or they're shameful, and they double down and they get really protective and big and more harm. Term. So I am glad that there I have softened, and I know you have too of like that vulnerability of there are different, I guess it's it depends on the situation, but there are situations where, I guess, if it has to do with somebody else's, oh, man, it's so complicated, because I'm if, like, if it has to do with hurting someone else, yeah, it's, but it's not, it's, it's not enough for if I just hurt myself. I mean, I think the thing is, like, you just can't, you just can't know how it's going to land in your system and how you're going to respond. And so there can be all this, like prep and mitigation and like trying to that's the trauma guys right there. We're always trying to mitigate, right? Yeah, avoid, avoid, fix it. And, you know, I think part of being human is to make mistakes, and we live in a world where making mistakes, especially if they are known to other people, is a lot more vulnerable than it needs to be. And yeah, just don't have the skills for dealing with being imperfect and being human, and it lands in our nervous system in all these nuanced ways, and then suddenly we are someone who makes an honest mistake that how would you have known kind of mistake? Like, of course, anyone would have made that mistake, and we're, like, shattered by it, and we're we feel humiliated, and the response is, you know, does not align to the reality of what happened, because we just don't have the skills for coping with imperfection. Yeah. I mean, it's all that perfectionism, and I'm just thinking about the giftedness and gifted folks, littles and bigs, and the misconceptions around giftedness and how it's just particularly, even more challenging to make mistakes and to not know, quote, unquote, everything you're not supposed to. But there's just so much put on when you are someone who comes into the world, who's, you know, progressing faster in certain areas, and people are noticing, and then they expect, you know, I know, like with my middle, with Sam, you know, he has a big defense mechanism around, And it's shame, and we're working on it around behavior that isn't perfect because of the asynchrony of like being a preteen boy who's gifted, who is like just light years ahead on so many things, and then emotional regulation all these other things is, you know, and he knows this, and we talk about it, but it's a big gap, right? And so when he doesn't do something behaviorally that he feels like a teacher says something, or whatever, he is in the double down right now, and he is in the Getting big with the kind of snapback, snark, kind of comments, because that perfectionism feels like it should be across the board. And that's just not how the gifted mind works, and or any mind, really, yeah, it's like, how do we build in more ease around making mistakes and being embarrassed and, you know, like, I just, yeah, I think the more we show up as imperfect. I mean, I love that. This is so meta, that this podcast, you know, it's unedited, and we don't prepare for it. And partly because we can't, with all of that, we just can't. We would never, y'all would never hear from us, and maybe you'd be happy about that, but, well, you're here, so there's that, yeah, and, and I think it's important, like even last week when I heard, I think it was your throat clearing thing, which is funny because then we talked about it this week, when I heard that in the recording, at first, my instinct was like, Oh, I could have trimmed that off. Because I do have the ability and the skills and the stuff to, like, actually edit these a little bit, you know. And I'm like, Oh, it would have just been a. Tiny little edit. But then I just was like, No, this is the point. Is that we are embodying, practicing, being imperfect, and the more we can do that and be with what comes up in our nervous systems, in our bodies, around the discomfort of being imperfect, I do think the more we can find capacity for feeling embarrassed, I think we can ease and soothe that embarrassment when it comes up. I do experience less embarrassment in general. It's not to not care. And I don't know if I've said, Oh, I don't get embarrassed. I don't think it's like a badge of, like, whatever, but I do think, like you do start to get less embarrassed, you know, as you get older. I think you know, because, well, it's just like in numbers, like you just doing stuff all the time. I mean, if you got embarrassed all the time, you would just never come out of your shell, right? Because, I mean, things are just happening out of your control, into your body, to, like, everything. So I think it's just a numbers game there. There's no, like, holding a a tight ship or whatever. But, yeah, I don't know where that was gonna go. So I don't know, but, and we've been talking a long time, so we should call it a day, but this was really interesting. I'm glad we had this conversation. I'm gonna be thinking about it. Yeah? I mean, it's so funny, because these conversations could go in 100 different directions, yeah, just we would talk more about disappointment, so maybe we do that another Yeah, because I do think that's a biggie. Yeah, I think they, they do touch on each other, but I think embarrassment was a good place to start. There's probably more here too, because there is, but whatever there's, there always is, because that's the way our brains work. All right. Love you. Love you, too. Bye, bye.